Complicating The Narrative

Introducing the Building Better Ways of Knowing summer mini-series

What would it take to build a public health knowledge system that is more pluralistic, reflexive, and oriented toward action?  The Building Better Ways of Knowing initiative was created by the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis Bursky School of Public Health, in partnership with the Alliance for Health Policy and Systems Research and with support from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF). The initiative convenes researchers, practitioners, policy leaders, institutional representatives, and community partners to explore how public health knowledge is produced, assessed, shared, and put into practice in ways that are rigorous, meaningful, timely, and impactful.  During the inaugural convening of this initiative, participants explored the values and incentives that drive research priorities, the institutional forces that shape whose knowledge is considered legitimate, the types of evidence that public health has long overlooked, the potential of communities to serve as genuine contributors to knowledge creation, and the disconnect between what research generates and what practitioners and communities actually need.  This episode introduces the Building Better Ways of Knowing summer mini-series by asking some of the convening guests to reflect on the convening and the knowledge production process in public health. Throughout the summer, guests from the inaugural convening will join Salma to delve deeper into the themes explored during the convening, their areas of expertise, and the interaction of their disciplines with the field of public health.   About the guests:   Guests responding to the question "What stood out to you from these two days of discussion and exchange?” include, in order of appearance:   * Alonzo Plough — Chief Science Officer and Vice President Research-Evaluation-Learning, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation   * Merlin Chowkwanyun — Donald H. Gemson Associate Professor of Sociomedical Sciences, Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health   * Rachel Sachs — Professor of Law and Co-Director of The Cordell Institute, WashU School of Law   * Whitney Robinson — Associate Professor in Obstetrics and Gynecology, Duke University School of Medicine   * John Ioannidis — Professor of Medicine, Epidemiology and Population Health, Stanford University   * Katherine Keyes — Professor of Epidemiology, Susan Lasker Brody Professor of Population Mental Health, and Vice Chair for Research, Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health   Guests responding to the question “What do you think needs to happen to strengthen how we produce and use knowledge in population health?” include, in order of appearance:   * Kumanan Rasanathan — Executive Director, Alliance for Health Policy and Systems Research at the World Health Organization  * Sara Bannoura — Co-Founder, Civic City   * Darren Jackson — Founder, Civic City  * Paula Brakeman — Professor Emeritus of Family and Community Medicine and Founding Director of the Center for Health Equity, University of California, San Francisco   Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla   Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zach Linhares  Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri   Music: Helmut Schenker / Omnia from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/60e14d61-23ca-4899-9c56-9a9018634986/ [https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/60e14d61-23ca-4899-9c56-9a9018634986/]   The views and opinions expressed by the guests in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

Purple Public Health episode—Autonomy and public health with Justin Bernstein

When and how, if ever, can public health compromise individual autonomy to prioritize the population’s health?   Professor Justin Bernstein joins Salma to discuss the different types of autonomy and liberty, from an ethical and philosophical perspective. By discussing Justin's papers on Covid-19 lockdowns, vaccine mandates, and soda taxes, they weigh when and how, if ever, individual autonomy can be restricted for the sake of the public’s health. Salma and Justin also explore the prioritization of different values, including liberty, justice, and equity, the legitimacy of different framings designing in health policies. This episode will help you question if public health and autonomy are mutually exclusive concepts or if there are instances where they can exist at the same time.  About the guest: Justin Bernstein is Assistant Professor in the Department of Philosophy at The University of Virginia. His research focuses on bioethics and political philosophy, especially in relation to collective action and public health. He is co-author of the Public Health Ethics entry of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.  Notes: Acronyms used in this podcast include: * AI: Artificial Intelligence * SEP: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy * SNAP = Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program Useful resources: * Bernstein J. The case against libertarian arguments for compulsory vaccination. J Med Ethics. 2017;43(11):792-796. doi:1136/medethics-2016-103857 [https://doi.org/10.1136/medethics-2016-103857] * Bernstein J, Jayaram A, Hutler B. Assessing the Liberty-Based Case Against Pandemic Lockdowns. ken. 2025;35(2):163-196. doi:1353/ken.2025.a987088 [https://doi.org/10.1353/ken.2025.a987088] * Faden R, Bernstein J, Shebaya S. Public Health Ethics. In: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. 2020. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/publichealth-ethics/ [https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/publichealth-ethics/] Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editor: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/   The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

The Lancet Commission on Sea-Level Rise, Health, and Justice with Kathryn Bowen and Jemilah Mahmood

Why should we all be concerned about sea-level rise and its health impacts today, despite it seeming like a problem of the future? Dr. Kathryn Bowen and Dr. Jemilah Mahmood join Salma to discuss the recently launched Lancet Commission on Sea-Level Rise, Health, and Justice. They argue that sea-level rise is neither just a coastal nor a future problem, but a present-day public health issue — one already causing increased salinity in agriculture, inundation of homes, loss of burial grounds, and rising rates of hypertension and adverse mental health in Pacific countries and other coastal communities. They dissect the fundamental injustice at the heart of the crisis: the populations bearing its heaviest burden have contributed the least to its causes. They discuss the three core themes guiding the commission — justice, connection, and imagination — and explore what it will take to move from evidence to action, and what success could look like by 2030. This episode will challenge you to see sea-level rise for what it already is: a health issue, a justice crisis, and an urgent call to act. About the guests Dr. Kathryn Bowen is Professor and Deputy Director of Melbourne Climate Futures and Professor of Climate, Environment and Global Health at the University of Melbourne. Her research focuses on the health impacts of climate change, advising governments and multilateral agencies across the Indo-Pacific region. Dr. Jemilah Mahmood is Executive Director of the Sunway Centre for Planetary Health at Sunway University Malaysia and an Obstetrician and Gynecologist, with a career spanning clinical medicine, humanitarian response, and international health leadership. Dr. Bowen is co-chair and Dr. Mahmood is commissioner of the Lancet Commission on Sea-Level Rise, Health, and Justice. Notes: Acronyms used in the podcast include: * AR7 = IPCC Seventh Assessment Report; * ICJ = International Court of Justice; * IPCC = Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change; * NDCs = Nationally Determined Contributions; * PM = Prime Minister; * UN = United Nations; * WHO = World Health Organization. Useful resources: * Figueres C, Bowen K, Cha J, et al. Life at the water’s edge: a Lancet Commission on sea-level rise, health, and justice. The Lancet. 2026;407(10537):1408-1409. doi:1016/S0140-6736(26)00257-6 [https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(26)00257-6] Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

The past, present and future of global health with Gbenga Ogedegbe and Benjamin Mason Meier

What happens when the global health architecture built over 80 years is changed drastically in 16 months and what should replace it? Dr. Gbenga Ogedegbe is the Dr. Adolph & Margaret Berger Professor of Medicine and Population Health and the director of the Division of Health & Behavior in the Department of Population Health at NYU Grossman School of Medicine. His research focuses on the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular diseases among minority and low-income populations in the US and sub-Saharan Africa. Dr. Benjamin Mason Meier is Professor of Global Health Policy in the Department of Public Policy and the Department of Health Policy and Management at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. His research focuses on human rights frameworks in global health law. Gbenga and Ben join Salma, right after WashU's Building for a New Era of Global Health convening, to trace how the post-war global health system was built, what it achieved, and the tensions it carried from the start: vertical, siloed, funding; neocolonial dynamics; the securitization of health; and a deficit-focused, donor-centric approach that left recipient countries with infrastructure they didn't control. They then turn to what has changed over the past year—the simultaneous withdrawal of U.S. funding across USAID, PEPFAR, and NIH, the exit from WHO, and the decline of European contributions—and what that means for active programs on the ground, from HIV clinics in Lagos to safety-net health centers in Brooklyn. The conversation then moves to what comes next. Gbenga makes the case for reciprocal innovation drawing on his own work adapting task-shifting strategies between Ghana, Brooklyn, and Nigeria. Ben argues for the enduring power of global normative standards and human rights frameworks to guide health policy even when funding disappears. Both push for a shift in how the field communicates and for governments in the Global South to increase domestic health financing rather than wait for donor systems to return. This episode offers a clear-eyed history of global health as we know it, an honest account of the crisis it faces, and reason for hope about what comes next.   Useful resources: 1. WashU School of Public Health. Building for a New Era of Global Health. 2026. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mLohUgBu9U [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mLohUgBu9U] Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/   The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

Purple Public Health episode—Trust and population health with Erin O’Malley

How do public health institutions experiencing declining public trust go about becoming trustworthy again? Erin O'Malley is the Executive Director of the Coalition for Trust in Health and Science, a coalition of more than 90 organizations working to enhance public trust in health and science. With nearly two decades of experience in health policy, advocacy, and cross-sectoral partnership, Erin leads an organization grappling daily with one of public health's most pressing and contemporary questions. Erin joins Salma to discuss trends in trust in health and science in the United States—from the lasting impact of the Covid pandemic to the role of political polarization in eroding institutional trustworthiness—and what it actually takes to rebuild it. They discuss what the coalition has learned about the mechanics of trust-building across the health and science ecosystem, why community-level listening and interpersonal communication matter as much as institutional messaging, and how the language we use can impact public engagement and trustworthiness. This episode will challenge how we talk about and classify information, explore the difference between being trusted and being trustworthy, and offer practical frameworks for how individuals, practitioners, and organizations can navigate an increasingly complex information landscape. Useful resources: 1. Resources: Knowledge. Coalition for Trust in Health and Science. https://trustinhealthandscience.org/resources/category/knowledge/ [https://trustinhealthandscience.org/resources/category/knowledge/] Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.