Simmer Down
好好说话 (hao hao shuo hua) with guest Li Man
This week I sat down with my guest Li Man to discuss this very popular 2022 Rom Com and the role that talk shows and legal issues play in everyday life in China.
Audio Transcript:
Jane: So hello and welcome to this very first episode of That Chinese Show. Our podcast is a conversation about Chinese TV and culture, and the format is very simple. Each week with a guest, I discuss a Chinese TV series. So rest assured if you are watching one of these shows, this is a no spoiler review. So we won’t be revealing any plot details, but we’ll be talking about themes and we’ll be talking about the characters of course, and the culture surrounding them. So this week for our very first podcast, I’d like to talk to you about Hao hao shuo hua or in English, this has been translated into Simmer Down. I’m not really sure why, but we can talk about that a bit later. So the series is very simple. It follows the adventures of talk show, host Yang Guang. And I’ll have to ask my guest to forgive me for massacring the Chinese on that, but. It’s very elegantly played by the actor Chen Xiao who mediates family [00:01:00] disputes. So you sort of think of the Shanghai version of Oprah or Dr. Phil it’s that kind of show. So without any further ado, I’d like to get into it. So thank you. Li Man for joining us, as our guest today.
Li Man: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jane: I’d like to start by letting Li Man introduce herself. So if you could just tell us a little bit about your life and your family.
Li Man: I was born and grown up in a small town called Ping Yuan, which is in Northwest Shandong Province. My dad worked in the beer factory. My Mom left the family when I was very young. So I spent much of my childhood with my grandparents. And later on, I started and worked in Beijing from where I had the opportunity to come to London to work.
Okay. Great. Well, that is a super introduction, especially since I think a lot of elements of your life are very relatable in this show. I also think you’re being modest. I mean, just to let our audience know, Li Man studied at one of the best universities in China at [00:02:00] Bei Da. you’ll correct me if that’s wrong which is Beijing University. It’s one of the premier universities. And she was one of my very first teachers when I was in China. So how are you enjoying the show?
I enjoyed it but I was put in this way, I wouldn’t sit down to watch it, but it was good company when I was cooking.
Jane: Okay, great. Well we’re going to go a little bit further into detail with the show now. So perhaps you could tell me, I mean the show basically it’s billed as a romcom, so romantic comedy and you’ve got three love stories that sort of intertwine. So I’d like to know from you how realistic are the portrayals of the family relationships in the show?
Li Man: I think there are some exaggerations. For example, the relationship in Liao Wang which is the key character Liao Wang’s family, the working relationship between Yang Guang and his female superior Zhi Ling. They don’t really ring [00:03:00] true. The rest in general they’re quite realistic.
Jane: So for our listeners Liao Wang is a lawyer. So that’s the principle love interest of Yang Guang. And the twist in this is that she’s representing his estranged mother who’s trying to get back the family house basically. He did not grow up with his mother. He does not talk to his mother and this lawyer represents the estranged mother. So that’s how they come into contact with each other. So sort of a story of a guy who mediates family disputes, but you can tell he’s got a lot on his own plate. So Zhi Ling is his boss so this is Yang Guang’s female boss, you know, sort of a woman in her forties, a very strong character very beautiful. What is it about her that rings false to you?
Li Man: The working relationship between Yang Guang and Zhi Ling. I mean, the relationship is just too relaxed. If you work in a media being quite a famous host for this talk show, I’m sure you have to work very [00:04:00] hard .
Jane: No, and I think you’re right. It’s something I noticed about this show too, is that you know, The focus are these love stories and so the characters spend a lot of time sitting around at their desks, talking about other things, you know, perhaps that this is impossible, it really can’t show how a working TV show would look like. Although I have to say on Apple TV+ “That Morning Show”, that’s a Western show for those of you don’t know. And that, that you do see a high octane early morning show and the way that people are just working themselves to death and I think China would be very similar and it is an extraordinarily relaxed atmosphere for a show that’s being aired on national TV. So I definitely join you in that reservation, but yeah, that’s true. So, their relationship is a bit more like a pretext. The next thing is how realistic do you find the love stories? Because they move in an extraordinarily slow pace in this show. I mean, this is a 40 some episode show so you do have to fill the episodes, but how realistic is that?
Li Man: I don’t find it developed [00:05:00] slowly. Not at all. I think it’s quite normal speed. I can’t speak for, for anyone of course, but maybe if you ask a person who is in their twenties or in their thirties, they would probably give you a different answer, but I’m in my early forties so I would say. It didn’t develop slowly at all, but we also believe if the relationship moved too quickly, too fast it won’t last long.
Jane: Okay, this is interesting. Cause I think this points to a bit of a difference in, at least American entertainment, Chinese entertainment. I mean, it takes them 16 episodes to exchange WeChat, you know, most American TV shows have 16 episodes in the whole season. So the fact that we’re at episode 16, that, you know, he just gets her WeChat information. I wonder if this doesn’t point to a larger cultural difference. People do take a bit longer in China to get to know each other. Your background is important. What your family thinks is something that is very [00:06:00] important to the characters in this show. Would you say that’s also something you’ve noticed?
Li Man: Yeah, I agree because it’s not only, you know, it’s two persons, It is also the two families and later on, so everybody has to be very cautious when they get into a relationship and we as a Chinese, we all know. And normally we will have, we have a saying say, when you get married, it’s not you and your wife or your husband get married, it’s your two families get married. So if you jump into that relationship too fast, you will have trouble later. So it’s a better to know the person or the family behind, more before you start a serious relationship.
Jane: Okay. That’s interesting. I have to say. I felt like one of the reasons this moved so slowly was, and I really would be interested in getting your feedback on this, is that the characters are very slow to open up to each other, especially to share information. It’s quite obvious to me that some of these episodes could have completely disappeared if some [00:07:00] of the characters had just opened up or said, look, my family isn’t going to accept this. Let’s talk about it. How can we work this out? But a lot of the motors of action in the show are characters hiding things from each other. I’m thinking of a moment where Yang Guang goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure his family does not see the show in which, you know, his love interest is appearing because she sort of this enemy of the family, right.
Li Man: Actually I’m on your side in regarding this, this question, because personally I would just tell and share. But it’s, I think probably it depends on their characters and how the people behind how designed these characters.
Jane: But you didn’t find it unrealistic—
Li Man: I don’t find unrealistic. I I’m aware of people around me who quite slowly to open up.
Jane: There’s a dimension to this show that I think our listeners might find really interesting is, you know, our, the love interest of Yang Guang is a lawyer. So law and [00:08:00] legal problems play a big role in the show. We don’t really know what that’s like. Could you address this for our listeners and tell us how the average Chinese person views the law in China and views lawyers in particular?
Li Man: I think this is a very interesting question because I think law actually plays an important role in ordinary Chinese people’s lives. The idea is hopefully we won’t need it, but it is important to understand it. An example came immediately into my mind is actually my granny, her favorite show is called, “Jing ri shuo fa”, which translated into English, it’s called Legal Report. It’s a daily program is from CCTV one. I have to say, CCTV is not cameras. CCTV is China Central Television. So that report uses real cases, but tell the audience, in a story, how can I say it presented like a [00:09:00] story, but it’s real cases. So Granny loves it. She watch it every day at lunch time.
Jane: Wow. That’s really interesting. That’s a lot like our show actually.
Li Man: Yeah. But well, another point I have to mention Granny is in her late eighties, so she still cares. She thinks to understand the law is important even until now she has never used a lawyer has never gone to a court, but yeah, this is important to understand it. As I said, I have other, I think your question, how can I say there’s different levels to answer your question. Have you ever heard about the phrase “yi fa zhi guo” which translated into English is a ” comprehensive governance of the country according to law”? It was the first used on the Fifth National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party in 1997 [correction: it was the 15th National Party Congress and not the 5th]. Since then more and more legal programs appeared on CCTV TV channels and, and local channels.[00:10:00] But secondly, people are richer than before of course. Now they have properties and money to worry about.
Jane: Well, do people trust the law in China? Because in the West we have these very, very partial visions of the law, these very famous international cases. I’m thinking of Bo Xi Lai a few years ago, or these criminal cases in which you see the courts judge the case like in a single day. But I mean, there are over a billion people in China, so you really can’t have an organized society without a pretty developed legal system. So would you say the average Chinese person has faith in his own legal system?
Li Man: I think so. I do think so. Well, what else can we use if we don’t use the law what else? Because actually, what I wanted to say you know, people get richer and there’s another point where we shouldn’t forget because of the development of the economy, the urbanization of towns and the villages increased the mobility of the population hugely. This means the traditional village or local [00:11:00] community level dispute settlement mechanism needed to be changed. So as we said, if we don’t trust the law what else can we use? Before I know when I was little, I’m talking early eighties, you know how people do to settle a dispute in my village?
No, how?
But before I get into that, I have to introduce my village first. The village was a medium size village, which contains around that time, maybe less than 1000 people. And the village was divided into two parts where we call that east end or west end. So I live in the west end of the village and which is the Li family part and the other end is Zhang family. If we have some, dispute between the Li families, what we do is we find the village head, the leader, and the Li family, what do you call the patriarch? And then we sit down, sit down with the families who have a dispute and discuss [00:12:00] what to do, and then settle the dispute. That’s what we do. We don’t really need the law, but now, as I said, the urbanization, of the towns and the villages. People, the village now disappeared. They have all gone. People moved into flats and now in a big compound. We’ve got a lot of other people, new people. We have never met before, move into the same compound and the old system doesn’t work anymore.
Jane: So now you have local courts now that mediate disputes.
Li Man: So we have to trust the law. That’s the, that’s the way to settle now, to settle the dispute now,
Jane: And how do Chinese people view lawyers? Are they, you know, in America, there’s sort of a love, hate relationship, being a lawyer is a very high level of education, but at the same time we have the ambulance, chasing lawyer you know, the “Better call Saul.” I don’t know if you’ve seen that series, but it’s about a lawyer who does run after people’s misfortunes and make money off of that. Do Chinese people view their lawyers in a similar way? [00:13:00]
Li Man: No, I don’t think so. I think in general people trust lawyers, I think it’s quite different. We don’t really have the idea that lawyers work for the rich. We don’t have that idea.
Jane: And how long if someone wants to be a lawyer in China, like our main character, our female love interest. She’s a junior lawyer in this very large law firm. Do you, how long do you have to study to become a lawyer?
Li Man: I’m not sure, actually I know. Well, just according to my knowledge, they have to go to the particular university it’s called law school and to do the four years bachelor and then maybe do some intern in the law firm.
Jane: The last thing I really wanted to touch on Is something that’s a very strong motor of action in this show, and that is maintaining face. It there’s a lot that goes on in the show because characters want to keep up appearances. You you’ve even got parents who go to extraordinary lengths to hide from their daughter the fact that their marriage is, is really is not a real marriage, for instance, are they, they no longer get [00:14:00] along or they’ve become estranged, and you have other people, I’m thinking of Yang Guang’s boss, who hides a problem she has that really is a super impediment to her being with the man she loves just because she’s afraid of losing face, which for me, it just seemed wildly. Why would you give up your happiness? Just because you want to appear a certain way to someone you’ve already been married to for the past 15 years. So I just wonder if you could address this for us and tell us, is this a real issue in China or is this a sort of a stereotypical cheap plot trick?
Li Man: First of all, I’ll admit there is something which I was thinking is, is it is, face saving project. But none of the examples you mentioned, I think is for saving the face. For example, Liao Wang’s parents. They try to keep a harmonious relationship is not to save their face is for the sake of their child.
Jane: Right.
Li Man: Yeah, it’s more to protect their [00:15:00] child because in the show it indicated, Liao Wang born and grew up in happy family, like a little cocoon and she was very well protected, but now the cocoon has become sort of bubble, but even that the parents don’t want to break the bubble. They still would like to protect their child. That’s not a face saving thing. And also please be aware that Chinese parents can really sacrifice a lot for their children, particularly in the key moments of their children’s lives. For example, before the entrance examination to high school and to university, they wouldn’t break up even they are not in a loving relationship or they want to, they won’t to get divorced, they will wait.
Jane: Right. I see your point with that. They’re not saving face for their daughter. They’re really doing that because they think it’s better for her. However, the relationship with the secondary love interests [00:16:00] sort of Yang Guang’s boss, and she’s been married for all these years and she just can’t bring herself to tell him that she can’t have children, and for me, it appears to be a very save facing thing. She just feels like, I guess she’s worried, he’ll leave, but she’s also worried about her image with him that she just can’t bring herself to be honest with him, because she’s let this drag on too long. So you feel like that is also not a face saving thing?
Li Man: I don’t think it’s not a face saving thing.
Jane: Is it realistic to you?
Li Man: I, I I’m on that side. I just think it just a bit too much. I personally, I can’t understand.
Jane: Yeah, I thought, okay. So I think we can both put that up to cheap plot mechanism. Like they’ve got 40 episodes and these characters can’t end up together too soon. Right? If you’re thinking about our listeners right now, who are Western, who don’t know much about possibly Chinese culture or perhaps they do, would you recommend this show to them? Why or why not?
Li Man: Yeah, I think [00:17:00] I might recommend the show to people who would like to understand the current Chinese society a bit more. I think Yang Guang’s talk show, tackle the problems, which are debated and discussed by Chinese families every day. So if they will like to, if anybody would like to understand the current Chinese society. Yes, please watch it.
Jane: Oh, well, thank you so much Li Man I think this really gives us insight into Chinese society today gives us a perspective of someone who’s grown up and who is a player, a real life player in some of the situations that are described in the show. And thank all of you for joining our very first podcast. So if you’re interested in watching this show check out the description of the show. I will be putting all of the links in that. And of course, if you’d like to follow our show that Chinese show on social media, You can either check out the website that Chinese show.com follow us on Instagram. We’re also on [00:18:00] Facebook and we’re on Twitter. Thank you for joining us to today, Li Man.
Li Man: Thank you.
Jane: If you like what you’ve heard, please tune in for our next episode, which is going to be a conversation about Xin Ju. Very popular TV show in China right now. And that’s translated “Life is a long quiet river.” It’s a family drama this time, and it is set in 2018 in Shanghai. So very much pre COVID. I really hope you can join us.
