Tim Timmons: Stop Working for God and Start Joining Him

Sara Groves: Are You a 'Mom and Pop' or a Walmart?

Sara Groves is on the Mount Rushmore of Christian singer-songwriters, but this conversation is less about the catalog and more about the life she's been quietly building offstage. Sara joins Andrew to talk about trading a 4,000-square-foot suburban house for a 700-square-foot home down the street from an old church, and what it's taken to keep Art House North — a community arts space in Minnesota — running for fifteen years. Sara also reflects on creativity as a practice for everyone, not just artists, stating her belief that "Beauty will save us," — and why the second half of life might be when you finally start making your most honest work.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "When you're young, you look ahead and think 'if I want to head there, I probably should turn in that direction.’ And then so much happens that you're like — ‘some of it happened because you turned that way, but a lot of it happened because of just, yeah, this isn't doing it anymore.’"  - Sara Groves "If you make community the point, you'll kill it. You have to be in mission together to some end."  - Sara Groves "The people who already had a thing going are not coming to your thing because they're already tending a fire. So you're gathering people who were looking for a fire."  - Sara Groves "God is the ocean and we keep writing about a cup of water. I started writing about the ocean with ‘Add to the Beauty.’"  - Sara Groves "My songs used to be weaponized belief system songs. And now they're not. They're just bearing witness songs. I'm just bearing witness to what it means to be human."  - Sara Groves "You're always invited to the party that you throw. So throw a party. Play to the room you can fill. If you have 50 friends, play in a room for 45 and have five standing at the back. That's gonna be a really fun night."  - Sara Groves "I think everyone should have a creative habit in the same way they have a fitness habit — whether they're a doctor or whoever they are. Beauty will save us."  - Sara Groves   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Sara Groves’ website [https://www.sarahgroves.com] Sara Groves Patreon [https://www.patreon.com/sarahrgroves] Art House North [https://www.arthousenorth.com] IJM (International Justice Mission) [https://www.ijm.org/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22799404557&gbraid=0AAAAADmM7-iDgFvGc42t-VKJDreCzUTBd&gclid=CjwKCAjwxITRBhBYEiwA6mZm7bkMZTtgJJ8CMitILB3bopRafgw4mDAWxrddkuHU6BGuv4yg4_4kkBoCglwQAvD_BwE] Add to the Beauty [https://www.saragroves.com/store/p/add-to-the-beauty-20th-anniversary-double-vinyl-in-gold-and-fruit-punch] — Sara Groves Fireflies and Songs [https://www.saragroves.com/albums/fireflies-and-songs] — Sara Groves Invisible Empires [https://www.saragroves.com/store/p/invisible-empires] — Sara Groves  "Obsolete [https://open.spotify.com/track/2QALkMxhbZhgawnvh44VWe]" — Sara Groves "Mystery [https://music.apple.com/ca/song/mystery/470670491]" — Sara Groves "Take It All In [https://open.spotify.com/track/17dbdxIS2gwlndziCd9aaI]" — Sara Groves  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  Sara Groves’ website [https://www.saragroves.com] Sara Groves’ Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/saragroves/] Sara Groves’ Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/grovesroad] Sara Groves’ X [https://x.com/grovesroad] Sara Groves’ YouTube [http://www.youtube.com/@SaraGrovesMusic]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop] *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with  Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/] .

Who Is Amy Grant Now?

Thirteen years is a long time to be quiet, especially when music has been your whole life. Amy Grant joins Andrew Osenga on The Pivot to talk about what it took to come back: a bike wreck in the summer of 2022, hours of neurological testing at Vanderbilt, and a doctor who gave her two words of advice — lean in. What followed was a new album, The Me That Remains, built not from a record deal or a producer contract, but from a poem Amy wrote to herself about who she was now, on the other side of everything. They talk about the song she wrote with Tom Douglas the morning after her mother passed, why she calls her daily movement routine "child's play," and what it actually feels like to make music in your sixties — without pressure, without pretending, and with something that sounds a lot like peace. Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "Everyone is always in some state of recovery. You can't live life and not be." - Amy Grant "Everything is the result of incremental change over the long haul. That just has been the beautiful lesson of a long season of recovery." - Amy Grant "Most mornings I wake up and I just feel like — I woke up. I got another day." - Amy Grant "It's a noisy world, it's a busy world. What everybody probably needs is a little more silence, space, peace. But as a creative, I hope I create something, anything, that somebody wants to return to." - Amy Grant "Caring for something — a person or something — is a big part of loving it." - Amy Grant   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “The Me That Remains [https://shop.amygrant.com/products/the-me-that-remains-cd-preorder]” — Amy Grant “The Hits [https://shop.amygrant.com/products/the-hits-cd]” (compilation) — Amy Grant “The Journey [https://shop.amygrant.com/products/the-journey-cd]” (compilation) — Amy Grant Wayne Brzenka [https://www.waynebrezinka.com/amy-grant] — artist who created the album cover artwork *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  Amy Grant’s website [https://www.amygrant.com/] Amy Grant’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/amygrant] Amy Grant’s X [https://x.com/amygrant] Amy Grant’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/amygrantofficial]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with  Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/] .

N.T. Wright: What If Christianity Got Heaven Completely Wrong?

What if the goal of the Christian life isn't to escape this world — but to welcome the next one into it? N.T. Wright, one of the world's foremost New Testament scholars and author of 87 books, joins Andrew Osenga on The Pivot for a conversation as warm and wide-ranging as it is theologically rich. Tom traces the arc of a life shaped by choir stalls in northeast England, Scripture Union camps in the Scottish Highlands, and a decades-long love affair with the Bible that has never stopped surprising him. He unpacks the central argument of his new book, God's Homecoming — that Christianity was never about souls escaping to heaven, but about heaven coming down to earth. Along the way, he reflects on what it means to hold your convictions with both conviction and humility, why personal transformation and theological understanding are more connected than we think.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "Most people today imagine that the point of Christianity is to go to heaven when you die. They are all wrong. The point of Christianity is not that we should go to heaven. The point of Christianity is that heaven should come to us." - N.T. Wright  "That's always been a sign for me that Christian maturity has, as one of its markers, the moment when texts you couldn't figure out before suddenly make sense — and you realize there's probably a lot more out there still waiting for us to grow into." - N.T. Wright "I think I'm a writer who happens to be in love with the Bible and theology." - N.T. Wright "But so I grew up in that atmosphere and the mantra really was, I will disagree like anything with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say what you say and to see the stuff like you see it." - N.T. Wright "You can't rush things as a theologian. You're working on a problem — and then gradually, gradually, you come around a corner, see things from a different light." - N.T. Wright   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “God's Homecoming [https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Homecoming-Forgotten-Promise-Renewal/dp/006256417X/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=186429966876&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.7ocRFkU4W0_GAogGDDXmtrJqkDBkthH1HVcB9SIHwuuy_K85BY8MCMvLuZ1xRGSRKDh4WeY3MM7_wj3_nRycuzbdwCYLY593q3dU4BY1hHlY6jACIj5FPuDeocrTpcaYgmvelk_I_HoD1vtKO3AfWA.o1cNU2k6LlPAOwDDTojI90fhZilqRNUG8HI1uFCrZBw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=792918667589&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9008082&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=7577297414474749628--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=7577297414474749628&hvtargid=kwd-2469707575138&hydadcr=2931_13892005_2446146&keywords=n+t+wright+god%27s+homecoming&mcid=394826a7c30e3e39a019fe1f93b3d245&qid=1778082229&sr=8-1]” — N.T. Wright “Surprised by Hope [https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821]” — N.T. Wright “The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions [https://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Jesus-Two-Visions/dp/0061285544]” — N.T. Wright & Marcus Borg “Spellbound [https://www.amazon.com/Spellbound-Charisma-American-History-Puritans/dp/0593729005]” — Molly Worthen “Democracy and Solidarity [https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Solidarity-Cultural-Americas-Political/dp/0300274378]” — James Davison Hunter “Jesus and John Wayne [https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-John-Wayne-Evangelicals-Corrupted/dp/163149905X]” — Kristin Kobes Du Mez “The Samurai [https://www.amazon.com/Samurai-New-Directions-Classic/dp/0811213463]” — Shusaku Endo "Genesis" (Yesterday parody) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgV_RUcYack] — N.T. & Francis Collins Ask N.T. Wright Anything [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ask-nt-wright-anything/id1441656192] — N.T. Wright's podcast Biologos [https://biologos.org/] Lanier Theological Library [https://lanierlibraryandlearningcenter.org/] Yarntan Manor [https://yarntonmanor.org/] — theological library outside Oxford *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  N.T. Wright’s website [https://www.admirato.org/] N.T Wright’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNTWright/] N.T. Wright’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/ntwrightonline/?hl=en] God’s Homecoming by N.T. Wright [https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Homecoming-Forgotten-Promise-Renewal/dp/006256417X]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

Sissy Goff & David Thomas: The Five Skills Every Kid Needs

What if the thing we're most trying to protect our kids from is exactly what they need? Sissy Goff and David Thomas — children's therapists, co-hosts of Raising Boys and Girls, and founders of Daystar Counseling — join Andrew Osenga on The Pivot to talk about their new book Capable and the growing crisis of capability they're seeing in kids and teens. From the rise of anxiety and depression to kids who won't get their driver's license or text a new friend, Sissy and David break down what's going wrong, and more importantly, what parents can do about it. They talk about the five skills every kid needs, why stress and discomfort can be growth-giving, and how parents can stop getting in the way of the independence their kids are desperately craving. This is one of those conversations that will change how you parent starting today.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "Kids learn that they're capable by experience."  - Sissy Goff "When I exercise, I don't get stronger unless I stress my muscles. The exact same thing is true of our souls." - David Thomas "You will experience some really, really hard things and loss will knock the wind out of you. And there will be something transformative on the other side if you allow that to happen." - David Thomas "The more connected kids are with their parents, the more healthy adults they grow into." - David Thomas "Parenting is so hard, and it is so important that we are encouraging each other, that we're cheering each other on." - Sissy Goff Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: www.RaisingBoysAndGirls.com [http://www.raisingboysandgirls.com] — Sissy and David's website “Capable [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Strengths-Skills-Strategies-Resilience/dp/0764245325]” by Sissy Goff and David Thomas “I Am Capable [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Unlocking-Strengths-Resilience-Confidence/dp/0764245333/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/146-5471330-8500509?pd_rd_w=vBgUB&content-id=amzn1.sym.dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_p=dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_r=JQBC6Z3G402SGTQP9Z7H&pd_rd_wg=0z1AY&pd_rd_r=d5554e75-3df1-400b-a5e2-9a505c680287&pd_rd_i=0764245333&psc=1]” — the companion workbook for “Capable” “The Daystar Dogs [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FPQKPZPC?binding=hardcover&ref=dbs_m_mng_rwt_sft_thcv_tkin]” book series by David Thomas and Sissy Goff  “Raising Boys and Girls” podcast [https://www.raisingboysandgirls.com/podcast?srsltid=AfmBOopcsFnj7RrZuxwvLic-4W5EE8QPjcVPcAcDnjrSB2YzURc6q8CS] by David Thomas and Sissy Goff Daystar Counseling Center [https://www.daystarcounseling.com/], Sissy and David's counseling practice in Nashville Hope Heals [https://hopeheals.com/] — the organization run by Jay and Katherine Wolf, who wrote the foreword to “Capable” Hopetown [https://www.daystarcounseling.com/hopetown] — Daystar's summer retreat program on Kentucky Lake *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  Raising Boys & Girls Website [https://www.raisingboysandgirls.com/] Raising Boys & Girls Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/raisingboysandgirls/?ref=hl#] Raising Boys & Girls Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/raisingboysandgirls/] Raising Boys & Girls YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@raisingboysandgirls] Raising Boys & Girls TikTok [https://www.tiktok.com/@raisingboysandgirls] Raising Boys & Girls Podcast [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/raising-boys-girls/id1366344369] Capable by Sissy Goff & David Thomas [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Strengths-Skills-Strategies-Resilience/dp/0764245325] I Am Capable workbook by Sissy Goff & David Thomas [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Unlocking-Strengths-Resilience-Confidence/dp/0764245333/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/146-5471330-8500509?pd_rd_w=vBgUB&content-id=amzn1.sym.dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_p=dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_r=JQBC6Z3G402SGTQP9Z7H&pd_rd_wg=0z1AY&pd_rd_r=d5554e75-3df1-400b-a5e2-9a505c680287&pd_rd_i=0764245333&psc=1]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop] *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with  Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/] .

Tim Timmons: Stop Working for God and Start Joining Him

Tim Timmons is a singer/songwriter, author, podcaster, pastor, cancer survivor, and—as of this year—the subject of a major motion picture. But this conversation isn’t really about the movie. It's about what it’s like to be Tim Timmons right now, in the middle of one of the busiest and most surreal seasons of his life. Andrew and Tim talk about what it means to stop working for God and start joining Him, why sorrow is a lot like manure (seriously), how Tim thinks about holding grief and gratitude at the same time, and what years of practicing obscurity have to do with the doors that are opening now. This one’s honest, funny, and surprisingly freeing—for anyone who’s ever tried to build their own little suburb in the kingdom of God.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “I quit working for God and I said I'll never open a door again.” - Tim Timmons "Sorrow sobers us and gives us a perspective we've never had before." - Tim Timmons “My ministry is just being a re-presenter of the heart of God everywhere I am in the mundane and in the freaking awesome.” - Tim Timmons "Once I stop working for [God] and just start hanging out with Him, I just become more beautiful." - Tim Timmons   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Waking Up Again by Tim Timmons and Hilary Timmons [https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Again-Journey-Gratitude-ebook/dp/B0GKG1SGHN] Tim's website [https://www.timtimmonsmusic.com] "I Can Only Imagine 2" [https://www.lionsgate.com/movies/i-can-only-imagine-2?utm_source=GoogleSearch&utm_medium=paidmedia&utm_campaign=ICanOnlyImagine2&utm_content=SEARCH3PTitleBroadPhraseExactTitleTermsNACONVCPCTitleRelease&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23643021964&gbraid=0AAAABCyq1YZ8oVpK1Bt7daIcQQU3zGy4r&gclid=CjwKCAjwnN3OBhA8EiwAfpTYekbv8qTunXCh4raE01O2sTOZ-L4qxhIc_88I3J0s7oxECjolOI9z4BoCpqMQAvD_BwE] — the movie Tim is featured in *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Tim Timmons’ website [https://www.timtimmonsmusic.com] Tim Timmons’ Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/timmonsmusic] Tim Timmons’ Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/timmonsmusic] Tim Timmons’ X [https://x.com/timtimmons] Tim Timmons’ YouTube channel [http://www.youtube.com/@TimTimmons]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].