The Upside Down Leader

Episode 8: Owning the Shadow with Dr. Max Klau

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Dr. Max Klau, creator of the Answering the Call program for the New Politics Academy, for a conversation that helped shape the ideas behind both the book and this podcast. Max has spent decades helping leaders wrestle with identity, ambition, ego, and purpose. In this episode, he shares the origins of the leadership framework behind Answering the Call, the role shadow work plays in leadership development, and why inner work is essential for anyone who wants to lead with integrity. Together, Billy and Max explore the tension between mission and shadow, the courage required to confront the darker parts of ourselves, and how unexamined shadow can quietly drive behavior, distort our judgment, and shape the systems we create. Max reflects on the early experiences that introduced him to shadow work, the resistance leaders often feel when confronting it, and why naming the shadow gives leaders the language to understand what has been operating beneath the surface for years. The conversation is both philosophical and practical, offering a powerful reminder that leadership is not just about strategy or results. It is about wholeness. When leaders learn to recognize and work skillfully with their shadow, they become more grounded, more self-aware, and far more capable of bringing their mission into the world.

Episode 7: When Responsibility Becomes Over-Responsibility with Alyssia Palacios-Woods

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Alyssia Palacios-Woods, Executive Director of Capital IDEA and a longtime community leader in Central Texas, for a thoughtful conversation about the unique weight of leading in service to others. With more than 15 years in workforce development and nonprofit leadership, Alyssia shares what it means to represent not just an organization, but an entire community. Together, they explore how pressure can quietly shift responsibility into over-responsibility, leading leaders to internalize decisions, absorb emotional labor, and isolate when the stakes are high. Alyssia reflects on leadership during the pandemic, the mental weight of constant decision-making, and how self-doubt and control can surface even in values-driven leaders. The conversation also touches on lessons from competitive tennis, parenting teenagers, and the importance of surrounding yourself with trusted advisors who help you stay grounded. Ultimately, Alyssia reminds us that leadership grows over time, and that leading from the light means anchoring decisions in both values and care for people.

Episode 6: When Strength Becomes Survival with Sylvester Williams

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Sylvester Williams, former NFL defensive tackle, first-round draft pick, and Super Bowl 50 champion with the Denver Broncos, for a powerful conversation about identity, pressure, and what happens when strength turns into survival mode. Sylvester reflects on growing up in poverty, being held back and kicked out of school, and the turning point that forced him to lead himself before he could ever lead others. He shares how his father shaped his leadership philosophy, the weight of tying identity to performance, and the depression he experienced after retiring from football. Together, they explore ego, adaptability, the need for coaches over cheerleaders, and why leadership must be earned, not assigned. This episode is a grounded reminder that survival may build resilience, but reinvention builds legacy. When leadership is rooted in impact, accountability, and generational change, the light becomes stronger than the pressure.

Episode Five: When Leadership Gets Heavy with Dr. Kurt Senske

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Dr. Kurt Senske, founder of CEO Board Services and former CEO of Upbring, for an honest conversation about leadership under sustained pressure. With more than two decades leading mission-driven organizations, Kurt shares what it means to carry responsibility when the stakes are high and people are counting on you. Together, they explore how stress subtly reshapes a leader, first through overwork and hyper-focus, then through cynicism, sarcasm, unhealthy habits, and isolation. Kurt reflects on seasons of self-doubt, bad hires, external crises like Hurricane Katrina, and even receiving "CEO of the Year" while privately feeling like a fraud. The conversation dives into board relationships, the increasing complexity of executive leadership, and the importance of accountability partners who can call you back into alignment. This episode is a grounded reminder that leadership isn't about accolades or endurance. It's about clarity, integrity, and building habits that keep you from drifting too long into the Upside Down.

Episode Four: Serving in a Space Built for Power with Emily Cherniack

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Emily Cherniack, founder and CEO of New Politics, for a candid conversation about power, purpose, and the tension of leading in the political arena. Emily shares her journey as a reluctant founder who never sought the spotlight but stepped forward when no one else would. Together, they explore what servant leadership looks like in a space often driven by ego, ambition, and control. As they enter the Upside Down, Emily names her own shadow, defensiveness, jealousy, competition, and isolation, and reflects on how scarcity thinking and pressure can distort even the most mission-driven leaders. She opens up about navigating leadership while becoming a mother during the pandemic, the cost of staying centered, and the long game of building leaders who are incorruptible in a system built around power. The episode is a grounded reminder that naming the shadow isn't weakness, it's preparation. Especially in politics, where the stakes are high and the darkness is real.