216. Miranda Priestly Was Ruthless, or Simply Committed to Excellence?

220. Trinh Tu's Leadership Journey From "No Way" to "There's No End Point"

In this episode, Julia speaks with Trinh Tu about one of the most difficult — and surprisingly universal — questions in leadership: How do we know when, or whether, we are ready to lead? When Julia first met Trinh, she described her own journey into leadership in four stages: “No way. Dragged in. Glad I did it. No endpoint.” It’s a phrase that captures something many people recognise: the uncertainty, hesitation, and vulnerability that often come with stepping into greater responsibility. Trinh Tu, Managing Director of Public Affairs at Ipsos UK, reflects candidly on why she initially resisted a senior leadership role she had repeatedly been encouraged to take. At the time, she loved the work she was already doing — and excelled at it. Leadership felt unfamiliar: more responsibility, more visibility, and more uncertainty. Most importantly, it felt like stepping into something she wasn’t yet fully prepared for. But the conversation raises an uncomfortable question: Does anyone ever truly feel “ready” for leadership? Or is readiness itself partly an illusion? Through Trinh’s experience of unexpectedly stepping into a major leadership role almost overnight, Julia and Trinh explore what happens when responsibility arrives before confidence fully catches up. A central theme of Trinh’s story is the influence of role models. She reflects on watching her own boss lead through an incredibly difficult period and realising that leadership could look very different from what she had imagined. Instead of command and control, she witnessed decisiveness, momentum, care, and the ability to bring people together during uncertainty. The episode explores how seeing leadership embodied by someone we admire can sometimes help us believe we might be capable of it too. Julia and Trinh also discuss something often overlooked in conversations about career progression: the role of support at home. Trinh speaks openly about the importance of having a partner who both supports and challenges her — someone with a different perspective on life, who encouraged her to think more broadly about what stepping into leadership might mean, not only for herself, but for those coming after her. Together, they reflect on how family, partnership, and the perspectives of those closest to us can quietly shape our willingness to take bigger risks. The episode also explores what leadership actually feels like once you’re in it: the loneliness, visibility, difficult decisions, and uncomfortable transition from being someone’s peer to suddenly leading them. Trinh reflects honestly on moving from a role she had mastered to one where she often felt she was learning in real time — and why bravery sometimes has to come before confidence. A powerful idea running throughout the conversation is Trinh’s belief that great leadership requires balancing anchor and momentum. In uncertain times, people need steadiness, direction, and something to hold onto — but leaders must also remain flexible, willing to adapt, and brave enough to change course when circumstances demand it. The challenge, as Trinh explains, is learning how to provide both at once. Together, Julia and Trinh explore the realities of stepping into leadership unexpectedly, the myth of feeling fully prepared, and what it really takes to lead when certainty is impossible. About the Guest Trinh Tu is Managing Director of Public Affairs at Ipsos UK, which provides policy research and services to government departments and international organisations. She brings a deep understanding of the policy landscape and the challenges affecting refugees in areas such as employment, education and healthcare. Trinh also serves as advisory board member for the independent charity BeTheBusiness, helping small businesses to enhance their productivity. Trinh and her family were refugees from Vietnam, fleeing by boat to escape persecution. Shipwrecked and stranded en route, with the compassion and help of strangers they eventually reached a refugee camp in Hong Kong. They were granted asylum in the UK, where Trinh has built a successful career. Now, she uses her experience and expertise to champion initiatives that provide refugees with the tools and support they need to thrive in the UK. “I am deeply honoured to be appointed as Vice-Chair of UK for UNHCR,” says Trinh Tu. “As a first-generation refugee, I can understand some of the challenges faced by those forced to flee their homes. In these times, with the highest number of displacements of refugees worldwide, I am committed to working alongside the dedicated team at UK for UNHCR to ensure that refugees are not only protected but also empowered to rebuild their lives and thrive.”

219. Are Women Forced to Choose Between Andy and Miranda?

In the final episode in this series of conversations around Devil Wears Prada, Julia speaks with Maryam after they watch the second film together. Unlike the earlier conversations in the series, this episode shifts away from Miranda Priestly herself and towards Andy — and what her character reveals about confidence, ambition, self-worth and the stories women continue to tell themselves as they lead. Maryam reflects on Andy as someone who is no longer an intern, no longer inexperienced, and yet still behaves as though she must constantly prove she deserves to be in the room. The conversation explores how many women carry old narratives about themselves long after they have developed the capability, instincts and judgement to lead confidently. Together, Julia and Maryam discuss the trap many women find themselves caught in: the fear of remaining too uncertain and over-accommodating, while also fearing becoming hard, untouchable or emotionally distant in order to succeed. The conversation also revisits many of the tensions explored across the wider Devil Wears Prada mini-expedition. Does excellence inevitably create pressure? Can ambitious women avoid becoming emotionally extractive leaders? What happens when stress simply gets passed down organisations? And how do women lead without reproducing the same cultures that exhausted them? A central theme in the episode is the emotional complexity of leading. Julia and Maryam reflect on loyalty, validation, psychological safety, female friendships, and the importance of recognising the quieter people who often hold organisations together behind the scenes. Returning once again to Miranda Priestly, the episode asks whether the real challenge for women is not choosing between Andy and Miranda, but refusing both models altogether. This final conversation brings the mini-series full circle. What began as a discussion about Miranda Priestly becomes something much larger: a reflection on ambition, identity, authority, burnout, confidence and the possibility of finding another approach to leading. About the Guest Maryam Pasha is a Storytelling strategist, producer and curator. She is co-founder of XEQUALS Studio, a creative studio dedicated to telling stories that can create a just, sustainable and joyful future. Projects include TEDxLondon, the Climate Curious Podcast and THE HERDS London. As a storyteller and coach she has worked with hundreds of speakers, including philanthropists, Nobel-prize-winning academics, business leaders, technical experts, activists and students. She has helped organisations to raise over a $1.5 billion to fight climate change, worked on talks that have been viewed over 25 million times and supported activists who’ve successfully changed the law in England to protect girls from child marriage. Earlier this year she joined the Palestine Comedy Club as an Exec Producer, is on the board on Climate Spring and a visiting Fellow at Oxford University.

218. Can Miranda Priestly’s Version of Excellence Still Work Today?

In the third episode in this series of conversations around The Devil Wears Prada, Julia speaks with Öznur about the relationship between excellence, fear, creativity, and psychological safety — and whether the kind of environment created by Miranda Priestly still has a place today. Reflecting on her early years working in London design agencies, Öznur describes environments where relentless pressure, perfectionism, and long hours were normalised in the pursuit of excellence. Like Miranda, many of the figures leading these spaces were deeply committed to producing exceptional work. But the conversation asks an important question: does commitment to excellence inevitably require harshness? Öznur speaks candidly about the impact of fear-based environments — how they create stress, mistrust, and competition within teams, while slowly eroding creativity and confidence. Rather than bringing out the best in people, she argues, these cultures often prevent talented individuals from contributing fully. A central theme in the episode is the importance of psychological safety. Öznur reflects on the kind of environments she has consciously tried to build throughout her own career — spaces where people feel trusted, supported, and able to speak up, including the quietest voices in the room. The conversation also explores the tension between empathy and standards. Julia and Öznur discuss the challenge of balancing care for people with clarity around performance and expectations — and why avoiding difficult conversations does not necessarily help teams thrive. Returning to Miranda Priestly, the episode reflects on how differently her behaviour might be viewed today. Was she simply a product of her time? Or have expectations around work, wellbeing, and leading fundamentally changed over the last twenty years? Together, Julia and Öznur explore a more sustainable vision of excellence — one built not on fear and control, but on trust, clarity, stability, and collective creativity. About the Guest Öznur is a design and research leader with 20 years of experience in the field, working in complex industries like healthcare, life sciences and technology. A champion of cross-disciplinary collaboration and psychological safety, she leads her teams and her organisations towards delivering better services to their users. She is also a trained horticulturist and a garden designer, and enjoys bringing gardening metaphors to her work as much as possible. Öznur is currently heading up design at Isomorphic Labs, and she previously held similar roles at Genomics England, DeepMind and Google.

217. Was Miranda Priestly Actually a Good Boss?

In the second episode in this series of conversations around The Devil Wears Prada, Julia speaks with Ally Vaughn about whether Miranda Priestly was simply cruel or whether the film unfairly framed a powerful woman who demanded excellence. The conversation begins with the title of the film itself. Ally points out that by calling it The Devil Wears Prada, the audience is already encouraged to dislike Miranda before she even speaks. From there, the discussion explores the pressures facing women in positions of power — especially women who are ambitious, demanding, serious, and unwilling to soften themselves to make others comfortable. Ally reflects on Miranda’s world: a high-stakes industry where decisions shaped culture, careers, and influence. In that environment, Miranda expected responsiveness, preparation, commitment, and high standards from the people around her. The conversation asks whether some of what we interpreted as harshness was actually clarity, discipline, and deep responsibility towards the mission. At the same time, neither Julia nor Ally ignore the damage Miranda caused. The episode explores the toxic side of performance obsession — fear-driven environments, lack of clarity, public criticism, favouritism, and the unfair treatment of Emily. Together, they reflect on how quickly mission-focus can become mission-obsession, creating cultures where people stop making good decisions because they are operating from fear. A central thread in the conversation is fairness. Through the contrasting experiences of Andy and Emily, Julia and Ally discuss what happens when talented, committed people feel overlooked or unfairly treated — and how favouritism can quietly erode trust in someone’s leadership. The episode also explores the contradictions in Miranda herself. Despite her cruelty, she backed talented people deeply, protected her team from uncertainty, explained the bigger vision behind seemingly small decisions, and understood the weight of her role in shaping an industry. Together, Julia and Ally reflect on a more uncomfortable truth: successful women are often judged differently. The same focus, determination, and decisiveness that might be admired in others can quickly become labelled as coldness, arrogance, or cruelty in women. This episode is not a defence of Miranda Priestly. It is a more honest conversation about power, fairness, feedback, fear, ambition, and the complicated realities of leading under pressure. About the Guest: Ally Vaughn is Head of Business Management for Fixed Income, Commodities, and Core Technology at Millennium Capital Management, a global multi-strategy investment firm. Based in London, she is responsible for the financial management and operational effectiveness of the technology organisation, delivering strategic initiatives and leading the expansion of global offices and centres of excellence to ensure the technology platform scales with the firm’s investment ambitions. Prior to joining Millennium, Ally was Head of Transformation at Polen Capital and spent 15 years at Goldman Sachs in a range of leadership roles.

216. Miranda Priestly Was Ruthless, or Simply Committed to Excellence?

In this very first episode in a new series of conversations around Devil Wears Prada, Julia begins with a question that sits at the heart of the film and of leading itself: when we call someone ruthless, what do we actually mean? In conversation with Phaedra, the discussion moves beyond the surface of The Devil Wears Prada and into the realities of making decisions when something important is at stake. Phaedra reframes the idea of ruthlessness — not as cruelty, but as discipline, focus, and an uncompromising commitment to the mission. Leading, she argues, often requires making decisions that are difficult, unpopular, and sometimes misunderstood. A central tension in the episode is the question of what comes first — the mission or people’s comfort. While care and respect matter, decisions cannot always be shaped by how people feel in the moment. From addressing underperformance to making hard calls that protect the organisation, leading demands clarity about what matters most. The conversation also draws an important distinction between being ruthless and being mean. Meanness, driven by ego or self-interest, is something to reject. But being relentless in pursuit of something that matters — even when it costs you popularity — may be necessary. Returning to Miranda Priestly, the episode invites us to reconsider what we saw. Was she simply harsh — or was she clear, focused, and unwilling to compromise on standards? This episode sets the tone for the series — questioning the language we use, challenging assumptions, and opening up a more honest conversation about what leading really requires. About the Guest Phaedra Ellis-Lamkins is the Co-Founder and CEO of Promise, a category-defining technology company using AI to make government more efficient and public services more accessible. Under her leadership, Promise has distributed hundreds of millions of dollars in aid while helping governments operate with greater efficiency, accuracy, and transparency. Recognized by global institutions for her impact, she is a leading voice on modernizing government and serves on the boards of Honor and Tipping Point Community.