Beyond the Garden Basics

Controlling Starthistle, Summer's Most Evil Weed*

34 min · 19. juni 2026
episode Controlling Starthistle, Summer's Most Evil Weed* cover

Beskrivelse

Today’s newsletter is all about starthistle, and all the ways you can control this summer weed…organically. If you want to read about chemical controls for starthistle, check out this University of California Ag and Natural Resources publication, “Yellow Starthistle [https://ipm.ucanr.edu/home-and-landscape/yellow-starthistle/#gsc.tab=0]”. In today’s podcast (above), America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor and I talk about the chemical side of weed control products, including all the different formulations of Roundup that are on the market, but they all have very different tasks; some can even sterilize your soil, making your garden unavailable for weeks, months, - or according to Flower - years. We offer tips for using herbicides, as well. We mention a University of Tennessee Institute of Agriculture publication about the different Roundup formulations entitled, “UPDATE ON ROUNDUP-BRANDED HERBICIDES FOR CONSUMERS [https://uthort.tennessee.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/228/2024/05/Update-on-Roundup-Branded-Herbicides.pdf]” that can help you decide. One national database for insecticide/herbicide/miticide labels is the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s webpage, “Pesticide Product and Label System [https://ordspub.epa.gov/ords/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:1].” It’s not the easiest site to navigate, but be persistent. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe [https://gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

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episode How to Plant and Care for a Shade Tree cover

How to Plant and Care for a Shade Tree

Beyond The Garden Basics is a reader-supported publication. To receive exclusive posts and complete access to past editions , consider becoming a paid subscriber. Today’s podcast interview focuses on consulting arborists and how they help property owners evaluate tree health. Gordon Mann explains that a consulting arborist provides independent inspections, identifies problems such as leaning, branch breakage, bark shedding, root issues, and recommends options for treatment or mitigation rather than only suggesting removal or trimming. But we talked about a lot more regarding shade trees. Among the topics discussed: * Call a consulting arborist (not a tree-care salesperson) every few years for an independent inspection, especially if you notice leaning, breaking branches, or unusual bark shedding. Find one via treesaregood.com [https://www.treesaregood.org] (ISA) or asca-consultants.org. [https://www.asca-consultants.org/?] * Don’t over-water lawns and starve trees: if you cut lawn irrigation, add dedicated deep watering for trees instead (e.g., a spiral soaker hose or concentric drip rings under mulch) so roots don’t rely on turf runoff. * Water deeply and infrequently (weekly to bi-weekly in dry season), covering the entire root zone from trunk to drip line, not just one emitter at the trunk. * Mulch with wood chips or leaf litter (”duff”), replenished every few years, as a top dressing only, never buried under the tree. It moderates soil temperature/moisture, builds soil biology, and softens rain impact. * Before planting, remove the tree from its container and check for circling roots; prune or score the root ball on four sides (and the bottom) to redirect root growth. * Use the “pedestal method”: dig the planting hole to the height of the root ball (or 1 inch less), keep that pedestal of native, unexcavated soil undisturbed, but loosen a much wider area around it (2–5x the root ball diameter). * Plant slightly high - top of the root ball about 1 inch above grade - to account for settling, and never plant in compost or heavily amended soil that will settle and bury the trunk. * If amending soil, mix in only 8–10% organic matter across the whole dug area rather than replacing native soil entirely. * Space trees for mature canopy size, not instant privacy. Plant further from fences and from each other to avoid crowding, root conflicts, and future removals. * Plant a diverse mix of species (no more than two of the same species in a row) to avoid catastrophic losses from pests/disease like Dutch elm disease or emerald ash borer; include some native trees for a stronger ecological palette. * Learn correct pruning cuts: avoid “heading cuts” (topping/chopping), which cause weak, densely packed regrowth; favor selective, purposeful cuts instead. * Prune only for a specific reason (health, structural safety, or clearance needs). Remove no more than 5–20% of foliage annually, and retire the outdated idea of “thinning” a tree just for looks. * For dead, dying, diseased, or crossing branches, evaluate each case individually rather than removing wholesale. A partial dead branch can sometimes be left for habitat. * Choose the right tree for the right purpose and location up front, accounting for underground utilities and infrastructure, since trees take 15–20+ years to deliver full shade/canopy benefits. * Give young trees a light shake 12–30 inches above the ground; if the root ball shifts, the tree isn’t rooting well and needs root pruning, transplanting, or replanting. Today’s conversation with Consulting Arborist Gordon Mann reminded me of two of the 11 Farmer Fred Garden Rules [https://open.substack.com/pub/gardenbasics/p/11-garden-tips-for-success?r=2lhdw&utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web]: 7. EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG. In the 1940’s & 50’s, DDT was available to home gardeners as a pesticide. Turns out, it caused cancer and killed birds. In the 1960’s-70’s, the Modesto Ash was considered the “perfect shade tree” for the Central Valley of California. Turns out, it is susceptible to anthracnose, mistletoe and is no longer recommended. In the first decade of the 21st century, the pesticides Diazinon and Dursban were taken off store shelves. Also proven ineffective, despite claims to the contrary: Vitamin B-1 for transplant shock, store-bought ladybugs, and tomato calcium spray to cure blossom end rot. In horticulture, research is always ongoing. 8. IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, FINE; BUT KEEP AN OPEN MIND. If you’re using safe gardening techniques that others frown upon - and those techniques are working…well, who are we to tell you to stop? Still, new research, techniques or equipment may make your chores a heck of a lot easier and satisfying. Today’s solution could become tomorrow’s problem. Be open to change. Even if you listened to the podcast, read the transcript. Gordon Mann had so many profound ideas about trees and tree care, you’ll learn a lot more with another read (or listen). Plus, links mentioned in the podcast for more information about trees and tree organizations can be found in the transcript. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO PLANT AND CARE FOR A SHADE TREE Farmer Fred: Do you have trees on your property? Well, trees are usually the largest and longest live natural features on your property. Plus, they’re worth a lot of money when you go to sell your home. So it pays to take care of the trees on your property. But do you know how? Well, if you don’t know how, that might be the time to call in a consulting arborist, especially if you think that there’s going to be problems if you see the tree leaning or maybe branches are starting to break or there is some unusual shedding of bark or something like that, you want to call in a consulting arborist. Well, what is a consulting arborist? Well, let’s check in with Gordon Mann. He happens to be a consulting arborist and he has a company called Mann-Made Resources [https://mannandtrees.com] serving Northern California for residences, businesses, agencies. He’s been doing it for more than three decades and he wants your trees to succeed. But the only way those trees can succeed is if you do the right thing and treat them right. And as I’ve been saying on this program for how many years now, it’s all about the soil. And that’s so true when it comes with trees as well. Gordon, a pleasure talking with you. And I hope we can shed some light for people to help them take better care of their trees. Gordon Mann: Thank you, Fred. I appreciate the opportunity to share some information with you. And actually, I’ve been doing this for about 45 years. And seven years ago, Handmade Resources shifted our consulting to California Tree and Landscape Consulting, CalTLC. And that’s where the consulting comes from. I also, in July, started the Institute for Soil Genomics for Healthy Community Forests. And the idea is to help people learn how to get our soils back to their natural form. Farmer Fred: And I bet right now people are wondering, well, wait a minute, what is a consulting arborist? So why don’t you explain the difference between a regular arborist and a consulting arborist? Gordon Mann: A consulting arborist should be someone with enough experience to come out and make an inspection on the property or the trees and figure out what any of the issues are that are, impacting the tree health or the tree condition. Usually, the consulting arborist is not part of a tree care company because most tree care salespeople show up to your property to sell tree work. There are several of them that will give some consulting out, but their job is to sell tree care. Otherwise, the company goes out of business. Nobody can just keep giving free information and stay in business for their careers. So we do charge for our independent, unbiased inspections of the trees. And the most scientific ways to help the trees grow and stay healthy. Or if the trees have some issues, how to treat the issues. And instead of just saying the trees have to be trimmed or have to be removed, we give options and mitigation options for any issues on the property. Farmer Fred: And just like you would visit a doctor regularly or a dentist regularly, if you have trees on your property, and especially if they’re full-grown trees that could be worth thousands of dollars when the time comes to sell your property, you might want to call in a consulting arborist every few years to just do a general survey of your urban forest. Gordon Mann: I agree with you. And I’m not just trying to sell our work. But any asset that we have requires some kind of preventative maintenance or regular maintenance. We think about all the things in our homes and our cars, and we do things to take care of them. No one drives their car until the engine seizes because they never change the oil. And trees being a very valuable asset to our property and part of the community canopy are very important and do need to be inspected occasionally and help the property owners learn how to manage their trees, structure, and health in an appropriate manner. Farmer Fred: And to find a consulting arborist near you, there are a couple of good resources out there that can help you pinpoint somebody locally who can help you out. I know there’s the International Society of Arboriculture with their website, treesaregood.com [https://www.treesaregood.org], where you can find a list of arborists and consulting arborists. But also there’s one specifically for consulting arborists, the American Society of Consulting Arborists [https://www.asca-consultants.org]. Gordon Mann: Both of those have arborists that are either certified or with ASCA registered consulting arborists that can help you inspect the site and give you the information you need to take better care of your trees. And hopefully the person that comes out is talking to you about growing better trees and keeping your trees healthy. And helping him understand what we can do to avoid unplanned failures as much as possible. None of us are able to look completely below the ground, but we can look at differences in the site conditions, the tree trunks, and sometimes the roots. And what we normally do is we make as much assessment as we can from what we can visually see from the ground. And then if we come up with some things that we need more information on, There’s called advanced assessments, where people might go up in the air and climb the tree to do an aerial inspection and look at what’s up in the branches close up or actually excavate the soil so, those of us without x-ray vision can actually see the roots. Also, we have things we can do like tomography [tomography%20of%20trees] or resistance drilling and find out what level of decay is in trunks that might have no apparent openings that we can see inside but sound hollow and we use a mallet to check the quality of the wood. Farmer Fred: The American Society of Consulting Arborists, their website is asca-consultants.org. And it will have a link to both the American Society of Consulting Arborists and the International Society of Arboriculture [https://www.treesaregood.org] in today’s show notes as well. I know you’ve been going around giving presentations on tree health, and I’m amazed at the resiliency of trees, how even though to the naked eye they might appear to be healthy, they could be stressed because they were started poorly, and not the least of which is when they may have been planted when the housing development you live in was finally developed. Usually the landscape goes in as the very last thing after all the construction work, and that initial landscape is being installed on compacted soil and maybe very little topsoil just because of the construction process. Gordon Mann: Yes, Fred. It’s really sad how when we look at the difference in how trees have grown in our communities from 50 years ago to current, they used to build individual houses. They didn’t scrape the entire site, all the topsoil off and compact it so they can build the houses so they don’t settle. And then they come in with four inches of topsoil and try and get the trees to grow. I hope some of your listeners have actually had the opportunity to walk into wildland areas or forests. We have so many national forests in our area and county forests and things like that where we can actually see how trees grow naturally. And hopefully they walk across a duff layer that It is a tree’s natural fertilizer, a natural way to restore the soils, with the elements that it needs to function properly. So soils and soil genomics are very like the human gut. There’s so much more information now about the biomes and things going on in the human gut that help our bodies care for themselves. The soils are the exact same way. And there’s so many fungi and bacteria in the soil that help promote earthworms and other things that are happening in the soil that sometimes you need a microscope to look at. And when we scrape the organic matter off the top of the soil and we compact it, then it eliminates a lot of how those organisms can grow. It changes the soil porosity and permeability. It changes the soil aeration. And most people just think that tree roots need water, but roots need both air and water because they’re living cells and cells need oxygen. And most of the microbiomes in the soil are not anaerobic, so they also need oxygen and air. And so what we try to do at the institute is we do actual soil tests. Not the normal one that goes through the local cooperative extension agencies and some of the soil testing we do that just talks about the elements in fertilizer, nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium, and pH. But we actually look at up to 120,000 microorganisms, both bacteria and fungi, and what’s missing. And it looks at what nutrients that are actually tied up in the soil and unavailable to the plant because the bacteria and fungi that help the roots extracted from the soil are damaged or missing. And the other thing humans do really well is we clean our soil. We rake in all the organic matter and all the leaves and any loose organic material off the soil. And it does two things. It protects the soil from the sun so what we have otherwise is baked soil that’s kind of like a brick so anytime we get water it usually runs off until the soil gets so saturated that it finally does soak in a little bit or, it does just run off and it never goes deep into the soil. And because the soil is baked, the organic matter and the fungi and bacteria that are in the shallow areas of the soil that normally replenish the soil, are actually either killed or lost. And we have very poor quality soils. Farmer Fred: Earlier on, you mentioned the word duff, and some people are probably thinking, why is he talking about a fictional beer from The Simpsons? Duff is another word for mulch, and it’s the fallen leaves, the small branches that basically can carpet a forest floor, which is their mulch. It’s an actual mulch, just like we’re always talking about the benefits of mulching your garden because it moderates soil temperature. It moderates soil moisture loss. It helps aerate the soil as it breaks down. It builds up the microbiology in the soil. And also when you get a heavy rainstorm, that layer of mulch can also help break up the impact of the water on the soil. Because on bare soil, when it rains really hard, it actually compacts the soil, removing the air. So that duff layer, that mulch layer, helps that water more slowly trickle into the soil so it penetrates deeper too. too. Besides, we don’t rake the forest. Maybe reconsider those leaves that are falling from your trees every fall. I’ve gotten into the habit of collecting the neighborhood oak leaves and grinding them up with either a mulching mower or my weed whacker and spreading it around my garden to help improve the soil during the winter if I’m not planting a cover crop. Gordon Mann: Yeah, Fred, you’ve got such a great method of the least expensive way to care for your soil. Most tree care companies, when they grind up the chips, we can still get them to drop them off at our house for almost for free without having to haul them away to the dump. And wood chips around trees are the best. And the natural organic matter of whether it’s a crop, a plant, or a bush or a tree is what those plants are used to growing in normal nature. And as humans, we think we’re doing the right thing by pulling them out. And we have this great behavior as humans of treating everything like they’re human. We do all these similes and things of how nature would act as a human is probably a better way to put that. And it’s not correct. And there’s also some new mulch products out there that people can use, such as nut husks and hazelnuts and maybe butternut. We don’t want to use walnut because they have some allelopathy to them, which can be a little bit aggressive to other competing plants. But the other ones are creating a nice mulch layer that we can put over the soil and actually do the breakdown of organic matter like you’re talking about. And unfortunately, when we add mulch, it’s not a one-time done. We have to add mulch again after it breaks down, but that’s what helps keep the soil in a well-functioning condition. Farmer Fred: You’ve been going around doing demonstrations and talks about the healthy soil for healthy trees, and you talk about the basic building blocks for cultivating a healthy tree life. What’s in that soil for a healthy tree? Water, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, iron, manganese, zinc, copper, boron, molybdenum. All right. Gordon Mann: Yeah, there’s exopolysaccharides, ESPs, cider O4s. Farmer Fred: But what’s interesting is all of those soil elements can be accomplished with organic matter. Gordon Mann: Correct. Humans are so used to taking two tablets and call me in the morning and give me a pill to take care of what I’m doing. That we think that by fertilizing our trees, we’re helping with the exact same thing. Farmer Fred: Now, we’re not talking fruit trees here. We’re talking ornamental trees. Gordon Mann: Ornamental trees, right. And even fruit trees, there’s some fertilizers that are specific towards improving the fruit production. And that’s different than just trying to throw extra nitrogen and stuff in the soil to get it to grow faster. Farmer Fred: And we have talked about nitrogen on this program, about how it does spur new weak growth that’s very attractive to insect activity and not necessarily good insects either. And the same is true if you start adding fertilizer to a tree that doesn’t need fertilizer. If it’s got that layer of leaves on the ground, that’s enough to feed that tree, isn’t it? Gordon Mann: It usually is. And again, because we start with soil that was not natural, and then we’re changing it, that some of the things in the soil are not there. And trees typically only need two things. Water and organic matter. The organic matter will break down and improve the soils and help the roots do their job and help them break down what’s in the soil and free up the elements that they need to grow. And by creating enough organic matter, which builds up the bacteria and the fungi in the soil and the biodiversity helps the trees be more healthy. But typically the humans think we want something to turn around overnight, and so we don’t give the soil the chance to do the long-term development that it needs that’s going to eliminate the need to do all these shots of nutrients that we get from fertilizers. Farmer Fred: Let’s talk about your travels throughout Northern California and assessing especially backyard trees, residential trees. What are most of the problems you’re seeing associated with those trees? Gordon Mann: I guess the problem we saw was a result of the drought. The wonderful way the state of California manages its water. Instead of trying to help people and be educated and say, we all have to use less water, we all have to do these things properly and deep watering our trees and not so much throwing the shallow water on the turf and not relying on how much rain we get each year to how we are going to behave. Unfortunately, that’s what the state does. And so when people tell you you have to stop watering their grass, they also stop watering their trees. One of the things we designed was we called stealth tree watering, where we have people dig a 12-inch wide, excavation of their lawn and putting a soaker hose in that spiral excavation, covering it with mulch. And then very slowly turning on the water so it bleeds out very slowly and drips into the ground and actually does go into the soil without greening up the grass next to it. And the mulch helps cover it so no one can see it and they can keep their trees alive. Because as soon as people cut off the water to their lawns, they’re cutting off the water to their trees as well. And unfortunately, most of the trees have learned to rely on that water from the turf watering. Farmer Fred: And that tree may not even be in the turf. It may be adjacent to it, but a tree’s roots can travel a long way, and they’ll go a long way to find water. Gordon Mann: Correct. And one of the problems we have with most of our nursery stock is that they’re grown in containers, and more people are trying to use air pruning to stop the roots from circling. But as soon as we pull a tree out of a container, we can see all the roots that have circled. And if we’re fortunate and the people growing it, every time they moved it from a smaller container to the next larger one, they actually did root pruning to get rid of the circling roots. The only roots we have to deal with at planting are that last layer of circling roots where we have to either prune them or something because they don’t just go, I’m free, I’m out of the container. They stay right where they’re at, even after we pull them out. And the people that just stick it in the ground like a wine cork, the tree is going to continue to grow in a circle. And the first thing I do when I visit people’s property with young trees is I give the tree a little shake. I grab it anywhere from 12 to 30 inches above the ground and wiggle it. And if I can see the container size moving in the ground, the tree is not rooting well. And the choices we have then are we can root prune it right then. If it’s been really recent, we could pull it out and transplant it. Or we could try transplanting it as been for a while and root pruning it and replanting it with much more healthy structural root system. Farmer Fred: We’ll have link in the show notes today about the correct way to plant a tree [https://sactree.org/tree-care-tips/how-to-plant-trees/]. And you have to pay attention to the hole. I think the old saying is dig a $10 hole for a $5 tree or something along those lines. But basically, that hole should be wide, not necessarily deep, but wide. And when you plant that tree to maybe if those roots are going round and round in that root ball is to score the root ball with a sharp object on four sides and maybe across the bottom and try to spread the roots out so that they will go out and help fill in that space that you just dug out like a six foot diameter, maybe 10, 12 inches deep. It depends on the size of the container that you’re planting. And by the way, don’t plant your trees in containers. Take them out of the container first. Gordon Mann: Yes. And, you know, it’s really interesting. The Sacramento Tree Foundation has had this pedestal method of planting trees pretty much for the last 30 years. And when I brought that up at the industry standards meeting, my coworkers and my professionals around the country called it a boutique planting method, which kind of shocked me because our volunteers do that all the time with very little training. When you dig the hole too deep and put the soil back on it, we can’t compact it to the type of aerated density that it was before we excavated it. And so the tree will settle. And one of the number one ways to kill trees is to plant them too deep. So the pedestal method is we take the tree out of the container and, We measure what the depth of the root ball is. Then we dig where the tree is going to go to only that height or even that height less one inch. Gordon Mann: And then around that pedestal where that tree is going to sit, you can go as crazy as you want with your excavation. We usually recommend at least two times the root ball diameter, but you can go three, four, five times root diameter. And outside of the pedestal, you can dig deeper. And if you have a hard pan outside the pedestal, you could punch through the hard pan so the water can actually drain the planting hole and you can create a really wonderful environment for your tree to grow. And because we’re talking about organic matter and things, a lot of the soils we have don’t have organic matter and that’s where the mulch we’re putting on comes in. And then we water the tree. The only roots the tree has, whether it’s a ball and burlap or a container, is the roots that are moved on to the site. So we have to keep that root ball moist, and then we have to slowly expand the moisture outside the root ball so the roots can grow outside the root ball. And the more we loosen and break up the soil into digging those bigger holes, the better the air and water can actually flow in what was the original compacted soils in most developed neighborhoods or sites. Farmer Fred: Many people, when they’re planting a tree, They want to do the tree a favor, and they buy some really nice potting soil, potting mix, and don’t put the native soil back in there. Instead, they’ll just fill it with potting mix soil. That can be a negative, can’t it? Gordon Mann: Can be. The bigger the hole you dig and the more you mix in some of the potting soil, so you increase some of the organic matter in that really large site, the better off it is, because as the roots do grow with the soil genomics and biomes, they pull those things with them, and they keep moving them through the soil. But I wouldn’t replace it completely. I would just mix in some organic matter, maybe up to 8% or 10% at the maximum, into the soils, and I would do it over the entire area that I dig out really large, and that may help the tree establish a little faster. Farmer Fred: And you mentioned, too, that you add mulch, but that mulch is only a top dressing, correct? Gordon Mann: Correct. If you’re using topsoil, it usually is a combination of... A silt loam, which will have both clay and loam in it. It will have some organic matter as well, light. You don’t want heavy organic matter. You do want light organic matter. And then you add more to the surface and let it slowly get broken down and move through the soil. Farmer Fred: Yeah, we should point out too that if you’re adding compost to that hole, even if it’s just eight or 10 percent, compost tends to break down. So it’s going to settle. So you do not want to plant compost beneath the tree. You want that pedestal to be the native soil, I would think. Gordon Mann: Native unexcavated soil. You want that to be unbroken up because as soon as we loosen it up and put it back in the hole, it does settle. The people that do root grinding and all that, they take the wood and the dirt and they grind it up into pulverized and they usually mound it. And then with a couple of years, that mound is level because that stuff naturally settles. Farmer Fred: Which is exactly why you need to replace mulch every few years, because it’s really a living thing and it’s breaking down. It’s feeding the soil. So you’re really helping out your trees and your shrubs when you do use a natural mulch like chipped and shredded tree branches. Now, one good tip I know for planting that tree at the correct level where you want about one inch of the existing soil ball of the tree from the container above grade is to lay your shovel across the hole. And then when you place that tree soil ball on that pedestal, you want that top one inch of the existing soil ball to be just about a little bit higher than your shovel. Gordon Mann: Yes, and that and also once you take the tree out of the containers, sometimes the root ball starts to disintegrate. It’s just that’s what soil does. It falls apart. It’s not supposed to be packed together like a clay thing you make pottery out of. And so by having it higher, if you do get a little bit of the bottom to fall away, you still don’t plant the tree too deep. Farmer Fred: I guess we should get into one reason why people like to plant trees is for privacy. I remember years ago during a technical advisory committee meeting at the Sacramento Tree Foundation, there was just this rush to try to find tall growing, fast growing, narrow trees for compact backyards to give people the privacy they wanted. And usually as a result, and this has been going on for 30, 40 years, they tend to plant the trees too close together to try to get instant privacy. Gordon Mann: Yes, and even landscape architects, they’re taking a site that has nothing and trying to make it look attractive. They’re going to put the trees very close together just because you want to look nice. Otherwise, it looks like a desert with a couple trees on it. And so they do put things together. The only benefit about that is because they have so much irrigation, As the initial trees that we’re going to keep on the site over time grow, they already have irrigation in place because they have additional irrigation for trees that will probably be removed because they’re overplanted and they’re growing the canopies together. Farmer Fred: Causing all sorts of other problems, too, usually with fences because they tend to plant that row for a privacy screen way too close to a fence line. Gordon Mann: Yes. And again, we think about what we’re doing from our side of the fence and not the other side of the fence. And if you’re a property owner and your tree is going onto my property, I have the right to prune it back to the fence line as long as I don’t kill the tree and don’t do too aggressive pruning. And if you want to keep the tree with the kind of a balanced canopy or a balanced crown, it should be planted a little bit in from the edge of the fence. Plus then the roots are going to have less impact. And if I do have to do root pruning and put a barrier in. The earlier in the tree’s life I do that and the farther from the trunk I do that, the more natural root system I’m going to have with that tree as it grows bigger. The worst time to root prune is when the tree has got large woody roots because if we cut that root close to the tree, everything that extends outward from the point we cut is lost. Farmer Fred: Yeah, and those trees could be supporting each other. Gordon Mann: Yes, sometimes the roots do graft together. But the biggest thing is when we do work on our trees, we want to avoid unplanned failures. We can do things to improve the soil and do things to help improve the health of the tree. Sometimes we do add some fertilizers with our organic matter. But for the most part, we can try and keep these trees growing, especially with water and organic matter. But we can’t stop unplanned failures once we’ve taken away the structural support the tree has. And one way you can look at this with a great model is you can put a wine glass on a cocktail plate or a dinner plate and they take trees out of the field, field grown trees and fall the burlap. They’re basically taking the tree that was the cocktail plate and coming out with the wine glass or the champagne flute base. And when we start root pruning, if you chip away the base of a wine glass or a champagne flute, you’ll see how little you have to take off for that thing to fall over. The only difference between that model and a tree is the flute or wine glass fall in the direction of the chipping, and the tree falls away from the root pruning usually. Farmer Fred: Let’s take our pruning talk above the soil level and talk about what people are doing to their trees as far as pruning goes. A lot of people don’t know the difference between a heading cut and a thinning cut when it comes to pruning. And most people are just doing heading cuts, chopping a tree willy-nilly to get to the height they want with little regard for the health of the branch that’s left over. Which usually when you do that, you end up with many, many more branches coming out of that cut that are all more weakly attached. Gordon Mann: They’re more weakly attached and are growing so close together that they can’t grow to maturity without pushing on each other. One of the features of that is accluded bark where they grow and smash into each other. And then when those tree branches actually fail, you can examine the top and see there was no connection in the top anywhere from a quarter to half of the way those branches are touching each other. The best way to prune a tree is to allow it. And because we’re allowing our trees to grow mostly in open areas, they’re growing a little wider than they would and taller and skinnier than they would in the forest when they might be close together. And so what you really want to do is you want to take away the end weights on some of the branches that reduces the loading. When we get branch failures, it’s because the weight and loading of the branch is stronger than the attachment. So when we have those heavily over pruned trees that are basically the hard heading cuts and the branches sprout together and aren’t thinned out the attachment is not complete as i explained earlier and so at some point they do fail. Gordon Mann: Which is really unfortunate because when the branches break without pruning we lost all our pruning options we now have this sheared off branch we have to see if we can take away the shearing and still get the branch to grow and then once or If the new branches do sprout out and the shoots sprout out, we have to prune to manage them. And most nurseries, they grow trees like they take a baby tree and make it look like a mature tree. They strip up all the branches on the lower bark to a tuft on the top where they’ve topped the tree. When we get bigger, woody branches and we make these large heading cuts and topping cuts, the likelihood of decay is much greater because the trees don’t heal. They seal or cover and take so long for their wound wood and their callus to grow over those pruning wounds that they expose that open wood to decay, which they can get into the tree and cause structural problems over the life of the tree. Gordon Mann: The other thing I’d love to talk about is, you know, people have heard plant the right tree in the right place. That to me is a mantra from all the electric companies that have to prune to clear their wires as a way to avoid expending money pruning trees for their wire clearance. Gordon Mann: What really has to happen is trees are actually a wonderful community or an individual asset. What we want to do is we want to figure out why we’re growing the tree to begin with. Then we’re going to grow the right tree in the right place for the right purpose. Gordon Mann: So if we want the tree for shade or for screen or for flower or for fruit, they’ve done the iTree Studies [https://www.itreetools.org/tools/research-suite#:~:text=The%20i%2DTree,in%20forest%20advocacy], which is probably since 2003, we’ve been getting results from iTree. It’s a free computerized program that the Forest Service has sponsored with some of their research grants. And it’s shown us that from the first zero to seven years of a tree growing, we don’t get any benefits from the tree. We’re investing money and time. And because the canopy is so small, we don’t get any benefits back. The leaves are the worker bees on the trees, and the leaves are what do the photosynthesis and do the shade and do the air quality. And so if we can’t grow the tree to maturity, the tree from 7 to 15 years starts to break even on its return on investments. Then for 15 to 20 years, we’re starting to get a little bit. And 20 years to maturity is just pouring back the benefits with the crown size. And so if we can’t grow the tree to maturity, we’re never really achieving those benefits. So the idea is how do we locate the tree? So we move away the competing infrastructure and utilities. So if I have to fix a sidewalk or if I have to fix a curb or have to fix an underground line, whether it’s electrical, water, sewer, gas, communications. I can do those repairs without having to cut so many roots that I have to take the tree out. Then I can grow that tree to maturity and still take care of all my infrastructure. So the idea is that we figure out why we want to plant the tree, then we figure out what space we have, then we determine which potential trees we could plant in that space. Gordon Mann: Then we look at the characteristics of those trees, evergreen or deciduous, nice flowers, nice fall color, fruit if we’re doing it for crops. And then we pick those trees and we actually try and have some diversity so we don’t have rows and rows of the same trees. Because those of us that have heard of Dutch elm disease, chestnut blight, emerald ash borer, eucalyptus borers, and psyllids, they’re usually attracted to one species. So if we have a row of species, we just create a smorgasbord for either a current insect or an invasive insect. Gordon Mann: And if we look at the city of Milwaukee, who has some of the best records and best research from some great research professors in Wisconsin, when Milwaukee got hit with their Dutch elm disease in the 1970s, it took until about 2020, about 50 years for the canopy to restore itself. It was lost by the loss of all their elm trees. And if you look at the emerald ash borer cities in the Midwest, in the Northeast, and in Southern Canada, they’re going to be 30 to 50 years to restore their canopies that are lost from all the emerald ash borer damage to their ash canopies. And so what we really try to do is getting some diversity in place, maybe not have more than two like trees in a row, find trees that have similar canopies and crown shapes and fall color, and have a little bit of diversity in the species, but as similar a uniformity as humans seem to need. Farmer Fred: And don’t forget to maybe throw a few native trees into that mix as well. Gordon Mann: Yes, and native trees are a great thing to have, and we have a great history with them. But as soon as we take that site and scrape all the soil off and compact it, there’s no guarantee the native trees are going to do any better than any other tree. And if you look at the number of native trees we have in any ecosystem... If we only have two or three native trees, we can’t have diversity. If we have 10 or 12 native trees, then we have a great palette to work from, and we can share our native trees with a few introduced trees and have a wonderful, natural, and attractive landscape. Farmer Fred: And again, we will use the term hydrozone, where you want to match up the watering requirements for the plants that you are irrigating. Gordon Mann: Correct. And it’s not just the hydrozone, it’s the availability of water. In California, we get no natural rain typically from April til October. We might get an occasional rain. We’re getting more a little bit the last couple of years, but they’ve just been a spritzer. And the rest of the time and with the heat we get getting up into the 90s and the 100s and triple digits, that water evaporates out and the trees do evapotranspiration pretty quickly. And so most of the artificial and supplemental watering that we do has to be repeated on a weekly to a two-weekly basis. And that watering should be very slow and deep watering that goes deep into the soil and put on under the mulch. And then the mulch helps reduce the evapotranspiration and evaporation from the soils that you talked about earlier and helps to contribute longer between irrigation applications. Farmer Fred: And again, that spiral you mentioned is a great idea where you are laying down either a soaker hose or an inline drip irrigation tubing in a spiral that gets wider and wider as it goes out so that the whole drip line of the tree, if you will, which extends from the trunk to the outer leaves, has the availability of water. Putting one little drip emitter next to the trunk of the tree is not doing the tree any good. It’s like you mentioned earlier, that whole area needs equal amounts of water. Gordon Mann: Yeah. One of the designs we’ve used when we were working with landscape architects is you actually can do concentric rings of drip hose, as you talked about. Or you could use a bubbler and you create a basin so that bubbler fills the basin. And you start out with the basin right over the root ball so the root ball stays alive and slowly enlarge the basin as the tree grows, because it’s not a Popeil Showtime grill, set it and forget it. It’s a living thing that needs constant attention and maintenance. And hopefully if we do it right, we’re putting in small inputs and as the tree gets bigger and bigger, we get more and more benefits from it. Farmer Fred: Now, folks, you can take this conversation about trees and apply it to your children, by the way. The same rules apply. Gordon Mann: Absolutely, Fred. You know, we don’t just birth childs. We don’t just plant trees. We grow them and we raise them. And you’re 100% on that. Farmer Fred: Yes, exactly. You want your trees to help take care of you when you’re old. It’s like that. Is there anything we didn’t talk about that we want to talk about? Gordon Mann: Last thing I would say is that you mentioned the term thinning earlier about pruning and thinning cuts. Yeah. In 2017, we extracted the word thinning from the industry standards because humans have this thing that the trees need to be thinned. The leaves on the tree are the worker bees and they perform everything. And if we, since they’re worker bees, if we compare the trees to a corporation where we have workers and productivity, if we take away a third of the foliage, and we were General Motors or Dodge or Ford, we just got rid of our night shift. If we take away two-thirds of the foliage, we got rid of our night shift and our swing shift. Gordon Mann: And those cruel people that top the trees, we got rid of all our workers. Who’s going to build the cars? Who’s going to do the photosynthesis? The trees can’t go to the union hall and bring on new workers. The way they restore their leaves is they sprout from, usually buds and some are adventitious and some are their buds that are on the trunk and on the branches and they sprout from those and they’re trying to restore the number of workers that they lost and the attachments from the sprouts are usually weakly attached. Gordon Mann: Branches and trunks, the way they grow, and Dr. Alex Shigo showed us this back since 1977 or 78 that the trees, they overlap and their tissue overlaps from the trunk to the branches. And that’s what holds those branches on so tightly. And when we do the heading cuts or the topping cuts and we get these sprouts, the branches are only attached by one or two years into these buds. Gordon Mann: And it takes, if they grow really fast, that they’re trying to do to produce the foliage, they’re weakly attached and they can fail. So the idea is to get rid of the word thinning from our vocabulary and talk about only remove a branch for a specific reason, for either the health of the tree or the structural integrity of the tree, or one of our human important needs like clearance for fire damage on homes, for visibility of traffic signals and street signs, and for making sure that we’re not getting slapped in the face when we’re looking down at our cell phones while we walk. And figuring out a way to manage the way the trees grow and allow them to grow by only removing anywhere from 5% to 18% to 20% of the foliage at any annual pruning on the tree, unless it’s a really critical need. And trees that maybe haven’t been pruned in a long time have the risk of a branch falling. Because the branch falling takes away our pruning options, whereas pruning well and keeping the natural shape of the tree looking like a tree full of foliage and dense foliage is the best way to grow the trees. Farmer Fred: So what did we learn from Gordon Mann, consulting arborist today? Well, it’s Farmer Fred garden rule number seven: “Everything you know is wrong.” because just like in this little conversation here, what terms don’t lead to correct pruning work? Things that we’ve been saying for years like remove dying branches, remove diseased branches, remove crossing branches and thin your trees. Basically, hold on. And what Gordon is saying is only prune what is necessarily good to prune. Gordon Mann: You know, when we write the specs to say remove dead, dying, crossing, diseased branches. So if you have a dead branch, you may want to only prune it back a little bit and leave some habitat. Sometimes dead branches do that. Or you can remove the dead branch because it’s not going to impact the health of the tree. Gordon Mann: But a dying branch, say 10% of the branch is dying, you gave me permission to remove the whole branch, even though you had to remove the 10% of dead branches. Gordon Mann: Diseased branches, we have anthracnose and powdery mildew. And you have a diseased branch with those, and you gave me permission to go ahead and remove all those branches. And basically, you’re getting a topped tree when you thought you wanted a nicely pruned trees. Crossing branches are, depends on your perspective. You look at the tree from the top and every branch is crossing. It’s really crossing and rubbing branches. And you want to try and first reduce some of those loading weights that gets it to separate from the rubbing. Or if they’re crossing and their branches are covering the same area where we need the leaves to grow, maybe remove one or two of the one of the two branches or a pair of branches. But removing crossing branches, I can remove all of them or both of them. And then the last one would be, and thinning, thinning again, you’re just taking branches out of the tree and the tree is going to regrow those because it has to grow. Gordon Mann: And we used to say in the industry standards that you don’t remove more than 25% of the foliage and all the pruning specifications said remove up to 25% of the foliage. Really want to move anywhere up to 5% to 12% to 18% maximum, depending on the needs and the species of the tree. And we only want to remove the branches that have to for end weight loading or critical safety issues. And that’s a different approach than just go ahead and thin every tree of 25% and make it look like you got a haircut at the barber. One of the best analogies I can relate to is for those of us that have significant others, that one of us goes to the barber and the other goes to a hairstylist. Gordon Mann: I go to a barber, I come out, and first I point into a picture on the wall to make him cut all my hair off like the guy in the picture. And when I walk out of the barbershop, everybody knows I got a haircut. When my lovely wife walks out of the hairstylist, she’s probably paid 10 times what I pay. And she comes out, she goes, what do you think? I’m like, okay, what did they do? Your hair looks great. You know, which supermodel do you want to look like? They don’t look like an army sergeant that just came out of boot camp. They look like the nice head of hair with a beautiful style. And when my friends come out of hairstylists, their hair doesn’t look like it’s been cut. It just looks very attractive. And if we can kind of prune our trees that way, I think we’ll be way ahead. Farmer Fred: I hope you have a comfortable couch to sleep on. Gordon Mann: I know. Farmer Fred: We’ve been talking with Gordon Mann. He is a consulting arborist with the California Tree and Landscape Consulting Firm. He has a website called Mann with two N’s, mannandtrees.com [https://mannandtrees.com]. If you don’t know your trees, if you don’t know what kind they are, if you have questions about your trees, it pays to invest into a consulting arborist. Gordon Mann, thanks for setting us straight on trees today. Gordon Mann: Absolutely, Fred. I always enjoy your show and I really appreciate all you do to educate our public in the areas. I’m glad you share your podcast with whoever can go online and listen to them. Thanks for reading Beyond The Garden Basics! This post is public so feel free to share it. Thank you for also listening to the original Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast [https://gardenbasics.net/], with over 400 podcast episodes available for your listening pleasure. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Fred Hoffman is also a University of California Cooperative Extension Master Gardener [https://sacmg.ucanr.edu/] in Sacramento County. Promotional support comes from Smart Pots [https://smartpots.com/pages/fred] and Amazon [https://amzn.to/4boexQv]. And he likes to ride his bike(s). Especially downhill. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe [https://gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

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episode Home Weather Station Setup for Gardeners cover

Home Weather Station Setup for Gardeners

Today’s newsletter podcast is a special treat for readers and listeners of the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter/podcast who might also be weather nerds…and what gardener isn’t? It’s an interview with climate scientist Daniel Swain, who, besides being a University of California Ag and Natural Resources employee at the California Institute for Water Resources, is well known on social media. Swain runs the Weather West website [https://weatherwest.com/] as well as his frequent presentations talking about extreme weather conditions in California and the west on YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@WeatherWest], Bluesky [https://bsky.app/profile/weatherwest.bsky.social], and other social media outlets. The interview focuses on how gardeners can measure weather conditions more accurately in their own yards. We discuss the limits of simple thermometers and the value of weather stations [https://amzn.to/4v63kLC]that measure temperature, humidity, wind, rainfall, soil temperature, and other variables, emphasizing that equipment placement is important for getting readings that reflect actual garden conditions. Swain explains that temperature measurements depend heavily on location. A thermometer in direct sun, near asphalt, dirt, or a house wall can read much hotter or colder than the standard shade temperature used by weather services. He says the official comparison temperature is usually taken about two meters (78 inches) above the ground, in shade, and that exposed thermometers can produce misleading highs and lows. The conversation then turns to frost protection in gardens and orchards. Swain says the relevant temperature depends on the plant and its height, because vertical microclimates can differ significantly within a few feet. He explains that cold air can settle near the ground, while higher air may be warmer, and that this matters for citrus, vineyards, tomatoes, and fruit trees. He also notes that irrigation and soil moisture can change daytime and nighttime temperatures. Discussing wind measurement, Swain says rooftop-mounted wind sensors often do not measure ambient wind well because the house creates turbulence and eddies. He explains that spinning-cup anemometers are vulnerable to dirt, rust, and wear, while sonic anemometers have fewer moving parts and can be more reliable. For wind, he recommends placing sensors away from tall obstacles and in open areas. Among the main points in the podcast: * Don’t rely on a thermometer mounted outside your kitchen window; it won’t reflect real conditions in your garden or orchard, which can differ by 6–8°F or more. * Test any temperature sensor in several yard locations before committing to a permanent spot; look for where it runs coldest and where it gets the most sun. * Keep thermometers out of direct sunlight and off dark, heat-absorbing surfaces (asphalt, concrete, bare dirt). These cause false highs by day and false lows at night. * For frost/freeze protection on citrus, hang the sensor at the height you’re actually trying to protect (e.g., ~2 feet, in the canopy shade), not high on a wall or pole. * Remember that a few feet of vertical height can matter more than many feet of horizontal distance, since cold air pools near the ground at night (temperature inversion). * If protecting a ground crop vs. a citrus tree, measure separately near the canopy top and under the canopy. Conditions differ significantly. * Use inexpensive multi-sensor stations (one indoor display, several remote probes) to monitor several yard zones at once rather than a single point. * Consider planting on gentle slopes or hillsides when possible. Cold air drains downhill, giving lower spots more frost risk and slopes a degree or two of protection. * Irrigated soil and plant tissue hold heat longer than dry soil, so damp areas will show a different (often milder) temperature swing than dry ones. Factor this into sensor placement and expectations. * Don’t mount wind gauges (anemometers) on the roofline. House edges create turbulent eddies that produce inaccurate, artificially chaotic wind readings. * For accurate wind data, mount the anemometer on a freestanding pole away from buildings, trees, and other obstacles, as high as practical. * If your station combines wind and temperature sensors in one unit, know that the ideal siting for each conflicts. Consider separating sensors and placing them independently. * Favor sonic anemometers over spinning-cup types if buying new. No moving parts means less error from dust, spiderwebs, or rust, and prices have dropped into the hundreds of dollars. * Clean and periodically recalibrate wind and temperature sensors. Even good instruments degrade and drift with age and grime. * Before designing a garden layout, spend a year observing your yard’s actual sun, shade, drainage, and temperature patterns month to month rather than guessing. Paid subscribers get extra editions of Beyond the Garden Basics, as well as access to over 300 previous editions of this podcast and newsletter. Home Weather Stations Podcast Transcript (originally aired on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast in May 2025) Farmer Fred: [0:00] If you’re a longtime gardener, well, you just might be a weather nerd. You may want to know what’s happening, especially around your garden area and greenhouse, about many things, such as what’s the high temperature, what’s the low temperature, what about humidity, wind, soil temperature, rainfall, evapotranspiration rate, chill hours, growing degree days, heat index, UV radiation, and a lot more that can be affecting you and your plants. And your meteorological equipment right now may be as simple as a thermometer hanging outside your kitchen window, which may not be the best idea. We’ll have more about that in a minute. Or it could be as complex as a really nifty weather station that set you back $1,000 or $2,000 that sends a myriad of data to your computer or phone or your in-house monitor. So if you’re considering upgrading your backyard weather equipment, you also need to consider the placement of those various devices in your yard to get more accurate readings about what is really happening in your garden area, especially near your food crops. Today, we’re going to get some answers to those questions from Daniel Swain. If that name sounds familiar, you may know him as the man behind weatherwest.com [http://weatherwest.com]. He’s a climate scientist focused on the dynamics and impacts of extreme events, including droughts, floods, storms, and wildfires. Daniel holds joint appointments as a climate scientist within the California Institute for Water Resources, within the University of California Ag and Natural Resources, the Institute of the Environment and Sustainability at UCLA. And he’s a research fellow at the NSF National Center for Atmospheric Research. He’s an alumnus of Davis and Stanford, and he completed postdoctoral work at UCLA. And again, his Weather West blog [http://weatherwest.com] is excellent reading wherever you might be on social media, especially Twitter, Blue Sky, and YouTube, where he does presentations all the time about upcoming weather events. I’ve been a fan of his for years. Daniel, I’m finally glad to be able to talk to you in person. Welcome to the Garden Basics podcast. Daniel Swain: [2:15] Yeah, so thanks for the invitation to be here today. It’s great to be on the show. Farmer Fred: [2:19] All right, let’s talk about, I’d be curious about your own home weather setup. What’s that like? Daniel Swain: [2:26] Yes. Well, you know, today where I live, I actually am based physically in Boulder, Colorado these days because of that NCAR appointment, despite the primary one with the University of California. So we don’t own a home here. So I’m somewhat limited when I can personally install on this side of the Rocky Mountains. But back in California, I actually, back when I was in high school, believe it or not, installed a weather station on my parents’ home in the North Bay. And that is something that I have maintained over the years on their roof. It’s still there. It still gets maintained. And I’m still trying to use, to the best extent possible, best practices for meteorological station siting on that one. Farmer Fred: [3:08] I understand completely. I think when I bought my first large parcel of land, I got myself a Davis Instruments weather station, which was at the time one of the best you could buy. And that let me know a lot of things like wind direction, the high temperature, the low temperature, rainfall amounts, things like that. But it has gotten so much better over the last 20 or 30 years. And the data is much easier to comprehend as well because of either in-house monitors or the data is shot straight to your phone or your computer. It makes it a lot easier. As they say in the computer world, garbage in, garbage out. So where you put that home station, no matter where, what kind it is, where you put it in your yard is very important, isn’t it? Daniel Swain: [3:55] Oh, it’s incredibly important. And this is actually something that I think is not always as obvious for a lot of folks as it might be to some meteorologists, although perhaps not even to all the meteorologists in the world who haven’t worked a lot with, actual physical instrumentation. And I think this is because, you know, as you say, exactly where you put these devices and where they are relative to other things that might be, in the immediate vicinity can make a huge difference into the numbers of the data you’re actually seeing in front of you. And, you know, as you mentioned, there’s any number of different ways. Companies that manufacture weather instrumentation or packages of weather stations. For my part, just as was the case with you, the one I installed was indeed, I think it was one of the Davis Vantage Pro stations, sort of the best consumer grade ones that they offered for many years. And it’s still there. It’s still chugging along. It’s been recalibrated a couple of times over 20 years at the factory. But it is still the same original hardware from 20 years ago, and it’s still going strong with that careful maintenance. But the bigger issue, I think, is indeed where we put it. And the main reason for this is think about what you’re actually measuring, for example, with something as simple as a thermometer. You’re measuring, technically, the temperature of a small increment of air immediately surrounding that thermometer device. Whatever the device is, if it’s an electronic one or an alcohol-based thermometer or a digital one, whatever the particular mechanism is, you’re measuring the immediate environment of that thermometer, right? So imagine two different scenarios, the same parcel of land, the same home, you know, two thermometers within, say, five feet of each other. So there’s not really a meaningful meteorological difference between the temperature across those five feet under normal circumstances. So the numbers should be the same. But imagine that one of those thermometers is just sitting out there in direct sunlight. You’ve mounted it on a pole above, say, a dirt field or a concrete or asphalt parking lot. That thermometer is going to read some awfully high values in the daytime and potentially some awfully low values in the nighttime. And that’s because, of course, you have the sun, when it’s sunny, is going to be directly shining on the thermometer, heating the thermometer itself because the sunlight is actually landing on the device itself. It’s also going to be warmer because you’ve put it in an environment that is itself a bit artificially warmer than it could be. You’ve got your own local heat island effect if you’re near that parking lot or that dirt field because that sun is also heating the ground there more than it would if it were, say, grass or some other. Daniel Swain: [7:01] Surface that weren’t so solar radiation absorptive. So that thermometer is going to read a very high value on a hot day, say, you might even get a value of 120, 130 degrees on that thermometer. And does that tell you that the ambient air temperature is actually 120, 130 degrees? Well, yes and no, because assuming the thermometer is correct, it is reading correctly the temperature of something in that environment. But as we define the surface temperature, for example, whether we’re talking about, the temperature at two meter height, so right around the top of my head, since I’m a little over six feet tall, that’s kind of a standard meteorological temperature measurement that’s used not just in science, but also for practical purposes and in agriculture and any number of applied purposes, that temperature is actually supposed to be a shade temperature. So the temperature of the air at about six feet off the ground where you don’t have any direct sunlight. Daniel Swain: [8:08] So if you’re measuring a temperature, you know, out in your dirt field or near the asphalt parking lot or in direct sun even, even if you’re over grass or something, what you’re measuring is something different than the number that you’re actually comparing to everyone else’s numbers. So when you go to the weather service website and get a temperature forecast or you look at observations from official weather service certified meteorological stations, the temperatures you’re actually seeing are the two meter or the six foot height shade temperature. And if you’ve put your thermometer in one of those settings we were just talking about, what you’re measuring is something else entirely. You’re measuring essentially however hot a thermometer gets if you put it in direct sunlight over a very absorptive surface. Likewise, at night, the opposite can happen where those places get a bit colder than the two-meter temperature correctly defined because they tend to radiate a lot of that energy back out to space if it’s a clear sky. And so you’re going to get a colder surface than one that has a little less variability day to night. So you might read a bit too hot or maybe a lot too hot in the daytime and potentially too cold at night. So your range is wider than the actual range of the temperature that we might define officially. And this is just for one specific, simple atmospheric variable, right? We’re just talking about the temperature. Things get even more complicated, and we start talking about things like precipitation or wind, and then things get just really, really complicated. We can dig into the details, but I just wanted to offer just how tricky it can be when we talk even about perhaps the simplest to measure atmospheric variable of temperature. And it’s why, for example, when you look at the temperature on your car thermometer, when you’re out on a hot, sunny day, or the bank thermometer, You might see it on the side of the road. Those will read values that might seem kind of patently ridiculous. And the reason is those are often thermometers that are sitting there in the direct sunlight on someone’s rooftop or in the case of your car thermometer, right on the hood of your car. And think about how uncomfortable it would be if you tried to put your hand on the hood of a car on a hot, sunny day in the Central Valley. It’s a lot hotter than the air, I’ll tell you that. Farmer Fred: [10:25] For gardeners who may have only invested in maybe a remote thermometer that they can read indoors, and those units are widely available even at the big box stores. They sell for $20, $30, $40 or so. A practical application that they’re looking for is, well, how cold is it under my citrus trees? Do I need to put a frost cloth over them? Do I need to protect them in some way from temperatures? And if all you have is a thermometer, as I use in the example, outside your kitchen window, you’re not getting an accurate temperature of what Farmer Fred: [10:56] is happening out where your citrus trees are. So to protect that sensor, that thermometer sensor that is in your yard, would one strategy be to hang it six feet up in a citrus tree? Daniel Swain: [11:10] Well, I think, you know, the key is it depends on what you’re trying to measure. If you are trying to do, for example, frost or freeze protection, then it really does matter what the temperature is at the level of the plant that you’re trying to protect. And the example of a citrus tree, it could be very different. The height of where you’re worried about frost on the leaves or blossoms or fruit of a tree, as opposed to, a ground crop or even something like vineyards, which are often below head height at their highest point, you get what’s known as a microclimate, especially in the vertical direction. So I mentioned that going, you know, five, five feet, six feet horizontally probably doesn’t affect things very much most of the time. But going five feet vertically actually can make a pretty big difference, particularly at night when you have what’s known as a temperature inversion, when temperatures actually increase, with height instead of decreasing as they normally do in the lowest layer of the atmosphere. Sometimes that inversion can be noticeably important even within the first few feet off the surface of the ground. And that can matter if you’re talking about the top of a tomato plant or the top of your grapevines versus the top of a fruit tree or a nut tree or something. So you’ve got to measure exactly what you need to know in that case. How high are you actually measuring? Is it under the canopy or is it on the top of the canopy? All of that can matter a lot for something as subtle as, you know, making sure you’re not falling below a particular temperature threshold. Might it be good enough if you only need to get within a couple of degrees for your purpose, you know, in any of these locations? That might be fine. But if you really care which side of 32 degrees Fahrenheit the temperature is at a particular height, you probably got to measure it as close to that height and location as you possibly can because you have these huge variations. In fact, a lot of the frost protection systems that are used, in larger-scale agricultural settings are really based on the knowledge that you do have these huge variations. Think about when people historically have used things as wild as helicopter downdraft, rotor downwash to sort of mix up the air during freeze events in orchards or fans or windmills that mix the air. Daniel Swain: [13:47] These aren’t hundreds of thousands of feet tall towers that are doing the mixing. A lot of them are just a few tens of feet tall, and yet mixing the air from 30, 40 feet up to the ground, can give you enough of a difference to prevent a freeze in a case where there’s a huge difference between the very cold air right at ground level and the slightly less cold air 10, 20 feet up. So sometimes, you know, frost protection is even... Leveraging the fact that these vertical microclimates exist it’s why you see vineyards for example on on steep slopes on some of the hills in in any place where you grow wine grapes part of that is because that cold air tends to kind of drain downhill into the the valley below or even the the culverts and the rivulets below it doesn’t even need to be a big valley so even just, planting on a slope that’s you know five ten fifteen feet above the lowest point on the land, gets you that extra degree or two of insulation. So a long way of saying that you got to measure what you actually want to measure. And if it’s something as sensitive as frost or freeze protection, you got to pinpoint exactly the height and the location where you’re trying to protect against that condition. Farmer Fred: [15:02] So if I’m a gardener listening to this, it sounds like, well, if I’m really concerned about frost protection for my citrus trees, I’d want to hang that sensor a little bit lower in the tree, maybe only two feet off the ground, but in the shade of the canopy. But at night, that’s not that big of a concern, the shade from the sun. But there sure is a big difference if all you have is a thermometer hanging on the wall of your house outside. And what may be happening 10, 20, 30, 40 feet or more away in your yard where that tree is growing. In my own amateur experimentation with that, I’ve seen as much as a six to an eight degree difference where it’s warmer on that thermometer near the house than it is actually out in the orchard. Daniel Swain: [15:47] Yeah, I can believe it. Part of that, you know, it’s, as we were talking about, there are genuine microclimates that can vary over that kind of distance. But it’s also because your house, for example, might actually be warmer. Presumably, if it’s a cold night, you have the heater on inside. And so some of that’s going to bleed outside a little bit near your house if you have it hanging on a wall or an eave somewhere. Even a tree, for example, is going to exert perhaps a bit of a warming effect. Because if you have the thermometer under the leaf canopy, for example, you are actually, that leaf canopy itself is going to be both absorbing and radiating some of its own infrared wavelength energy that is keeping things a little bit warmer than it would be if it were just out in a bare dirt or, an asphalt field with nothing above you, going out into the, clear, cold winter sky at night with less moisture around too. This is whether or not you’ve irrigated. Most people who are farmers or gardeners know that once you put water in the soil, once you put water on the plants, once you irrigate, you both, you kind of dampen the range of temperatures that you’re going to experience. So you have less hot afternoons because more of the sun’s energy is going into evaporating water or water transpiring through the plant’s leaves. But at night, even if you have less transpiration or evaporation, that water is still maintaining some thermal inertia in the tissues of the plant or in the soil because it has retained it from the daytime. And so it takes longer for damp soil, for example, to cool down than dry soil. So by having moisture in some places more than others, you’re also going to actively, in some cases, create a temperature differential that’s different than, you know, where you might be measuring at your house or out on the driveway or something else. Farmer Fred: [17:43] This is a tip we’ve passed along for years to people who are who have an orchard or citrus trees or whatever is basically. Test that sensor out in various locations to see where perhaps the coldest temperature might be. What’s nice is there are some inexpensive units that are available that will have multiple sensors that you can hook up to one indoor monitor that can tell you the various temperatures at various points in your yard. And that’s not a bad plan for any gardener before they plant anything is figure out, A, where most of the sun is if you really truly do need full sun, and also where the coldest parts is. So I always advise people, before you plant a garden, live with your house, live with your yard for a year and notice where the sun goes, where the shade goes and where the temperatures go on a month-to-month basis before you do anything. I’ve noticed with people who buy, we’ll say the mid-range weather stations that have temperature, rainfall and wind, a lot of these units, especially the wind part, is mounted on a rooftop. And I’ve often wondered, Well, is that really accurate or not? Daniel Swain: [18:54] Well, when it comes to wind, you know, the answer is unfortunately often going to be a pretty flat no. It’s not accurate. And there’s a number of reasons for this. One is that, first of all, commercial-grade wind sensors are very finicky. You know, there are different ways you can measure wind. Most familiar, you know, is probably the spinning cup anemometer. So all wind gauges are anemometers, by the way. That’s the technical term. But the spinning cup variety, you know, it’s exactly what it sounds like. It’s usually three plastic or metal cups that are sort of rotating along a vertical axis. And the stronger the wind, the faster the cups rotate. They’re sort of like mini ice cream scoops that sort of get caught by the wind and spin faster, the stronger it gets. And that gets converted into a wind speed based on the number of rotations per unit time. The tricky part with these is that, you know, they’re highly susceptible to getting dirty or to becoming degraded over time. So anything from spider webs to dust to bird droppings to just good old rust will really affect that kind of sensor, really bias its wind speed kind of probably low. So you’re estimating winds that are too low relative to real winds. And honestly, some of the ones, especially the lower to mid-range ones that come straight out of the manufacturers from the warehouse, they already aren’t doing so well. So there is a challenge here where it’s actually pretty difficult to measure wind correctly, even if you’ve sighted the instrumentation correctly, because of the inherent challenges with getting that kind of physical instrument to operate and be fully calibrated correctly. Sometimes at the higher end of the consumer grade, as you get into the professional grade instrumentation, there are other forms of anemometers, of wind gauges, things like sonic anemometers, and those are becoming more common. Those are a little bit more resilient to that particular problem of friction, essentially, with the spinning cups, because there are no moving parts in a sonic anemometer. It’s essentially the instrument is actively sending out sound waves between receivers, and it’s measuring the distortion of those sound waves between two relatively nearby points. So there are no moving parts. And if it’s calibrated correctly, that can be a decent option because it’s a little more impervious to things like, you know, you still got to clear the spiderweb off occasionally, but dust isn’t going to affect it as much rust, you know, and there’s no spinning wheel to spinning ball bearing situation that you have to worry about. So that can be, you know, an improved option, although it’s usually more expensive. That’s not what you’re getting on your typical consumer-grade station. But then there is the problem of sighting. Even the very best professional anemometer is going to be in error if you put it in the wrong place. And the wrong place, as you mentioned, it could be the roof line. Now, a lot of people put anemometers along the roof line because it’s really just the most convenient spot. And I get it. You know, sometimes you do the best that you can. But the problem with putting it along the roof line is that if you have a gusty wind, for example, and you’re measuring it along the edge of a surface, think about what happens if, you know, if you were standing up on the roof on a windy, stormy day, you probably don’t want to stand too close to the edge because you get buffeted by all of these gusts and these eddies, these swirling, turbulent features. Because if you think about it, if the wind is hitting the side of your house. Daniel Swain: [22:31] Hopefully it’s not going through your house unless you’re inside of a tornado or something. Instead of going through your house it’s hitting the side of the house and you know the, the air has mass and it has force and it has to go somewhere so where does it go but it goes up once it hits the side of your house it can’t go down to the ground it can’t go through your house unless you have all the windows open hopefully not so it’s going to go up, and so now all of a sudden you’ve artificially generated wind in a different direction than the ambient wind you You have upward force of that wind, and as it approaches the edge of your roof, now all of a sudden there’s no barrier anymore, and so it’s going to start to, move back in the direction that it wanted to go originally. It’s going to go back horizontally, but now you’re going from an upward wind to a 90-degree change to a horizontal wind again, and that induces rotation or swirls or random turbulent eddies. So what I’m getting at is that if you have an anemometer mounted on the side of your house, whether or not it’s a spinning cup or a sonic anemometer or something else, it’s going to be really measuring all the turbulent eddies that your house produced rather than the ambient wind speed. And so you’re going to be measuring, again, something other than what you actually want to measure. So ideally, what you’d do if you really want to know what the ambient winds are in a given location, is you’d essentially mount your wind gauge, your anemometer, on a stick, on a post somewhere that’s as far from vertical obstacles as you possibly can. So out ideally in an open field somewhere and far enough above the surface that you’re sort of getting away from the surface friction layer. Daniel Swain: [24:09] There’s actually formula based on the height of the nearby objects or vegetation you want it to sort of be above that but in general you know we often talk about two meter or ten meter winds ten meters is kind of tall that’s like a 30 plus foot, tower that is unrealistic for a lot of folks. But ideally, if you can mount it, you know, in an open field or, you know, even in an open lot, here there’s less sensitivity than temperature, for example. So it’s a little bit less of a problem if there’s, you know, a paved surface or a dirt surface or water nearby, because you’re not trying to measure the temperature necessarily, you’re trying to measure the wind. And here what you’re trying to optimize is the radius around the sensor where there’s no tall vertical obstacles that could induce artificial turbulence or either artificially enhance or reduce the ambient wind speed. So here, unlike thermometers where you’re trying to minimize the unwanted solar radiation exposure or the exposure to anomalously damp or heated or artificially cooled areas, here you’re trying to avoid proximity to tall objects that could cause eddies or reduce the speed of that wind. So the challenge is if you have one unit where these sensors are integrated into the same physical object, these can be kind of goals that are in opposition to each other. But ideally, what you might have are sensors that you can physically separate and potentially even put them in different locations, because it might be the optimizing for your most accurate sighting for your wind gauge is different than optimizing for your most accurate sighting for your thermometer, for example. Farmer Fred: [25:49] And for those gardeners with a nice chunk of land where they can accomplish that, probably their first thing they’ll do is go to Amazon and see what’s available. And there’s a lot of those sonic wind measurement devices available at fairly reasonable prices in the hundreds of dollars, not the thousands of dollars. And that sounds like a much more reliable way to measure the wind other than spinning cups. Daniel Swain: [26:13] Yeah, it certainly can be. It used to be the case that they were incredibly expensive, as you say, were the very cheapest ones from the thousands. But I think this is another place where technology has the technological curve mass adoption has made them a lot cheaper than they used to be. So they’re still not trivially inexpensive, but they’re also not nearly as financially out of reach as they once were, I think. So if I were, you know, if I were buying a new one right now, I would probably do just that and look for a sonic anemometer because they have, you know, in general, you can imagine fewer moving parts, fewer problems. Farmer Fred: [26:46] Exactly. And again, on YouTube, it is Weather West, just as it is on all your social media outlets that you use, which is wonderful. And you have become America’s meteorologist. Daniel Swain: [26:58] Well, you know, there may be some colleagues on the Weather Channel who would disagree with that one. Although I do occasionally, I sort of am a recurring guest on a Weather Channel segment called The Weather Geeks. And, you know, it’s kind of full circle for me in the sense that, you know, I was that weather geek. Like I, you know, when we would be traveling and, you know, we get the cable television and motels all around the West on road trips, I’d turn on the weather channel and watch it. And now I, you know, I get to have some conversations on air with some of those very same people that I was watching myself, you know, 30 plus years ago. So it’s kind of a fascinating experience to sort of be enmeshed in the weather world day to day in this moment in particular. And then to have the opportunity, you know, through my new role with UC ANR, which I’m really excited about, by the way, to expand the scope of these conversations even more. Farmer Fred: [27:53] And we’re glad you’re there. @WeatherWest is where you can find him on Blue Sky [https://bsky.app/profile/weatherwest.bsky.social], on X or Twitter, as well as YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@weatherwest]. He is now with the University of California Ag and Natural Resources as part of their California Institute for Water Resources. Daniel Swain, climate scientist. We’ve had a lot of great information today. And believe me, this is going to be very helpful for gardeners, especially when they start getting sunscald on their tomatoes and peppers this year. Daniel Swain: [28:22] Oh, yes. Well, hopefully it isn’t too bad. But, you know, it’s always best to be prepared. And so hopefully I can help folks out in that regard. Farmer Fred: [28:29] Daniel Swain, thank you so much. Daniel Swain: [28:31] Thanks again for having me. Thank you for also listening to the original Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast [https://gardenbasics.net/], with over 400 podcast episodes available for your listening pleasure. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Fred Hoffman is also a University of California Cooperative Extension Master Gardener [https://sacmg.ucanr.edu/] in Sacramento County. Promotional support comes from Smart Pots [https://smartpots.com/pages/fred] and Amazon [https://amzn.to/4boexQv]. And he likes to ride his bike(s). Especially downhill. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe [https://gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

3. juli 202628 min
episode More Heat-Beating Garden Tips cover

More Heat-Beating Garden Tips

You may recall a couple of weeks ago on June 12, the Beyond the Garden Basics podcast featured myself and America’s Favorite retired horticulture professor, Debbie Flower, talking about protecting your outdoor plants in containers from the searing summer heat. That conversation was recorded during a live presentation at the 2023 Harvest Day festivities, put on by the Sacramento County, California Master Gardeners at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center. Today’s podcast is the rest of that live presentation, where we discuss tips for saving Time Money and Water in the garden. Meanwhile, in this week’s newsletter, we have more advice for dealing with extreme heat in the garden this summer. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe [https://gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

26. juni 202637 min
episode Controlling Starthistle, Summer's Most Evil Weed* cover

Controlling Starthistle, Summer's Most Evil Weed*

Today’s newsletter is all about starthistle, and all the ways you can control this summer weed…organically. If you want to read about chemical controls for starthistle, check out this University of California Ag and Natural Resources publication, “Yellow Starthistle [https://ipm.ucanr.edu/home-and-landscape/yellow-starthistle/#gsc.tab=0]”. In today’s podcast (above), America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor and I talk about the chemical side of weed control products, including all the different formulations of Roundup that are on the market, but they all have very different tasks; some can even sterilize your soil, making your garden unavailable for weeks, months, - or according to Flower - years. We offer tips for using herbicides, as well. We mention a University of Tennessee Institute of Agriculture publication about the different Roundup formulations entitled, “UPDATE ON ROUNDUP-BRANDED HERBICIDES FOR CONSUMERS [https://uthort.tennessee.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/228/2024/05/Update-on-Roundup-Branded-Herbicides.pdf]” that can help you decide. One national database for insecticide/herbicide/miticide labels is the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s webpage, “Pesticide Product and Label System [https://ordspub.epa.gov/ords/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:1].” It’s not the easiest site to navigate, but be persistent. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe [https://gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

19. juni 202634 min
episode Your Garden vs. Summer Heatwaves cover

Your Garden vs. Summer Heatwaves

We tackle how to help your garden cope with the late spring and all-summer heat waves coming our way in today’s podcast and newsletter. In the first part of the podcast (above), America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower, and I, concentrate on helping your plants in containers stay cooler in the summer. The second part of today’s podcast features a September 2022 chat with Sacramento County Master Gardener Gail Pothour, who had specific tips for helping your vegetable plants manage the heat. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe [https://gardenbasics.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

12. juni 202623 min