The "Exvangelical" Grief & The Cost of Leaving

The "Exvangelical" Grief & The Cost of Leaving

In this very special episode, Eric and Johnny step aside from their usual two-man banter to welcome their first-ever guest, John Hosmer. Longtime friend of the show's inner circle, Hosmer shares his gripping personal journey from the extreme heights of hyper-evangelicalism to a complete hairpin curve into a life completely outside of faith. In This Episode: * An Introduction to a Media Empire: Eric kicks things off with a primer on what exactly Hillsong is for those who might only know the music. He describes it as a global charismatic Christian megachurch and multi-million dollar media empire founded in Australia that radically redefined modern worship culture. If you've ever "shouted to the Lord" on a Sunday morning, you know Hillsong. * From Prosperity Gospel to the Outback: Guest John Hosmer details his upbringing in a rigid prosperity gospel environment dominated by Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar, complete with endless demands for money and vacations to believers' conventions. Seeking an escape and a healthier expression of faith, he packed up his life at 25 and spent four and a half years down under at Hillsong College in Australia from 2010 to 2014. * Theology, Evolution, and Mind-Blowing Choices: Initially arriving as a bass player to study music, Hosmer recounts how his worldview shattered when he met Christians who actually believed in evolution. Driven to know more, he switched to the pastoral stream to study theology, introducing him to massive biblical scholars like N.T. Wright, Miroslav Volf, and Jürgen Moltmann. He details the liberating experience of learning to read the Bible in its historical context rather than taking it at absolute face value. * The Silent Tipping Point: While acknowledging that Hillsong's subsequent scandals are entirely well-deserved, Hosmer credits the college with initially opening his mind. However, after transitioning into a traditional ministry career, a devastating series of life events in 2019—including a painful divorce and a sudden, corporate-style firing from his dream church job—left him met with absolute divine silence. He opens up about the terrifying realization that, after giving the faith everything he had, he simply no longer believed any of it. * The Spectrum of Graduation: Eric, John, and Hosmer map out the vast spectrum of deconstruction. While Eric and John have constructed a new, evolved semblance of faith, Hosmer explains his choice to say "fuck it" and walk away entirely. He passionately shares his decision to protect his new 10-month-old son from the fundamentalist indoctrination and trauma that all three of the men experienced during their upbringings. * Life is the Tits: Despite the heavy grief of walking away from his entire identity, Hosmer delivers an inspiring message of hope. Now happily remarried, a new father, and a passionate gardener working stable hours in tech, he proudly declares that his life is "the tits". The guys close out by reflecting on poetry, the freedom to let your body love what it loves, and the beautiful reality that you can always hit the reset button when a path stops working for you. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our growing community. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation going!

Spiritual Abuse & "High-Control" Culture

In this episode, Johnny and Eric wade through the bizarre landscape of modern political imagery before diving into a heavy, necessary conversation on clerical authority, spiritual gaslighting, and why the modern church has become so inherently terrified of questions. In This Episode: * Temu Twitter & The Wrinkle Factory: The guys open with a wild current-events breakdown of a bizarre, AI-generated image posted by the president. This sparks a larger, bipartisan critique of a political landscape run by an absolute "wrinkle factory" of aging leaders who are entirely too old for office. * The Politics of the Pulpit: Eric asks John a direct question: how does he avoid turning his sermons into a political commentary loop? John reveals his strict policy of keeping politics entirely out of the pulpit. He explains that because people are completely inundated by constant political noise all week long, he views it as a pastoral duty to give his parish one hour a week to tend to their souls and find rest around a shared table. * Punching In & Leading From the Rear: John shares a peek behind the curtain of clerical titles, explaining that when his parishioners call him "Father," he doesn't view it as a marker of authority, but rather a "responsibility cloak" signaling that he is officially "punched in" to do a job. He reframes the pastoral calling using the Middle Eastern style of shepherding, where shepherds don't lead from the front, but rather guide from the rear to catch the stragglers pushing forward. * Megaphones & The Bully Pulpit: They address the hidden brokenness and power moves that frequently taint church leadership. John shares a story from his seminary days about a peer who sought ordination merely because the collar gave him a cultural cachet and a "bully pulpit" megaphone he never had before. They confront how leaders often use boisterous bloviating as a shield against accountability so people won't examine their clay feet. * Confusing an Idea of God with Reality: Why is the institutional church so afraid of scrutiny? John uncovers a profound truth: people frequently confuse their personal idea of God with the actual reality of God. Consequently, when a genuine question is asked, leaders feel like God's very existence is being threatened. John contrasts this with a beautiful memory of his own father, who progressively told him that if he ever found a path that was "more truth" for his soul, he had to pursue it. * Every David Needs a Samuel: To wrap up, John recounts the biblical story of King David, Bathsheba, and the prophet Samuel's clever confrontation. Invoking Thomas Beckett's famous warning that it is highly dangerous for men in power to have no one to tell them they are wrong, John and Eric reflect on the vital importance of having true friends who aren't afraid to look you in the eye and tell you when you are messing up. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our growing community. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation going!

Purity Culture & The 90s Hangover

In this episode, Eric and Johnny clear out the clutter with some nostalgic appreciation for the show's theme music before jumping headfirst into the heavy, deeply institutional, and often traumatic history of evangelical purity culture. In This Episode: * Nostalgia and Whoopie Pies: The guys open the show with a heartfelt shoutout to David Hiester, a brilliant musician and old camp co-counselor who graciously composed the theme music for Oh, You Too. This trip down memory lane sparks a hilarious conversation about their old camp director, David's father, and David's mom's legendary, unmatched Pennsylvania whoopie pies. * The Rise of the "Trad Wife": Transitioning into current events, Eric highlights a recent niche subculture finding that nearly 47% of Gen Z women view traditional marriage and staying at home as ideal, actively stepping away from "girl boss" expectations. John and Eric debate the psychology behind this shift, exploring whether it stems from third-wave feminist autonomy or a trauma-informed desire for absolute certainty—letting someone else make the hard decisions so you never have to face the consequences. * The Only Thing Jesus Never Said: The hosts unpack how Christian nationalism pushes the stay-at-home housewife archetype as a core spiritual discipline. Eric notes the wild irony of elder millennials claiming "I'm not a feminist" despite driving cars, renting houses, and holding credit cards. John hits them with a theological reality check: despite what fundamentalism preaches, Jesus never once explicitly told women that popping out babies and staying at home was their only design. * The History of the Obsession with Purity: Eric asks John a foundational question: why did the 90s and early 2000s evangelical church choose fear and shame for sexual education instead of grace and wisdom? John traces this structural fixation back to the 1950s, revealing a sobering historical timeline: the exact year Eisenhower integrated public schools was the very same year massive religious private schools cropped up across the nation so white families could remain privately segregated. John argues that the obsession with "racial purity" effortlessly slid right into the obsession with "sexual purity" as a tool for institutional control. * Object Lessons & Purity Balls: The guys confront the deep spiritual trauma inflicted on teenagers by toxic youth group object lessons—from peeling tape off shirts to passing around pre-chewed gum to symbolize "lost worth". They call out the deeply unsettling, overtly sexualized world of "Purity Balls," where young girls are forced to symbolically date their sword-wielding fathers and commit their physical bodies to them until marriage. * Peter, Good Will Hunting, and Grace: To wrap up, John shares a beautiful pastoral perspective on forgiveness by linking the biblical restoration of Peter to the iconic "it’s not your fault" scene from Good Will Hunting. They reflect on how true love dismantles institutional coercion and finally allows people to heal from the shame of their past. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our growing community. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation going!

The "Red Letter" Conflict

In this episode, fresh off a couple of much-needed haircuts, Johnny and Eric step into the crosshairs of American politics to examine a glaring dissonance: the historical divide between the radical, restorative teachings of Jesus and the rigid institutional framework of Paul. In This Episode: * Assault Rifles and the Cross: The guys jump into the political arena, confronting viral comments from politicians like Lauren Boebert who famously claimed that if Jesus had an assault rifle, He wouldn't have been crucified. John completely upends this logic, pointing out that the desire to use violence to avoid suffering sounds exactly like the first thief on the cross. They unpack how a modern obsession with firearms directly contradicts the Christ who looked at Peter, told him to put away his sword, and said, "No more of this." * The "Supply-Side" Jesus: Quoting William Blake's poem The Everlasting Gospel—"That vision of Christ that thou dost see is my own vision’s greatest enemy"—John explains how humanity constantly shapes a Jesus that merely bolsters our own preexisting biases. They debate how the Beatitudes have been flipped on their head in contemporary discourse, changing "Blessed are the poor" into "Blessed are the job creators." * The Fetish of Hypocrisy: John and Eric react to the breaking scandal surrounding politician Kristi Noem's husband and his online double life. They reflect on the popular "Pastor Arrested" subreddit, unpacking how the rigid shame-based structures passed down from St. Augustine cause leaders to project external hatred onto marginalized groups (like drag queens) because they are utterly terrified of looking at their own authentic selves. * The Jesus vs. Paul Gap: Eric poses a foundational question: why is it so much easier for pastors to build a 45-minute sermon around Paul's letters than Jesus's parables? John shares a perspective that rocks Eric's world—revealing that as an Episcopal priest, his sermons are strictly rooted in the Gospels, and he can't remember the last time he preached from Paul. They discuss how people gravitate toward Paul because they want cut-and-dry rules, ignoring that Jesus is the ultimate patron saint of "chaos" who completely ignores social hierarchies. * The Collusion of Church and State: John and Eric dissect the history of the Johnson Amendment and the toxic nature of Christian Nationalism. John highlights that it wasn't a lack of weapons that killed Jesus—it was the corrupt collusion of temple and state power. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our community. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation going!

The Color Line in the Pews

In this challenging and profoundly personal episode of Oh, You Too, Johnny and Eric step into the current events ring before diving headfirst into a necessary, uncomfortable, and transformative deep-dive into race, faith, and systemic injustice in America. In This Episode: * Labor, Bias, and the Justice System: The guys open the conversation reflecting on a viral 2024 healthcare case involving Sharice Doily, a professional Black doula who was forced into a virtual court hearing via Zoom while in active labor. Eric shares alarming statistics highlighting racial disparities in modern healthcare and the shocking reality of medical bias against Black patients. * Trouble For Jesus vs. Trouble With Jesus: Discussing the vulnerability of marginalized communities facing institutional power, John reflects on the legal battles and historical resistance of the church. He shares an inspiring story about New York's historic "Little Church Around the Corner"—a sanctuary for outcasts and a vital stop on the Underground Railroad —leaving listeners with a foundational choice: would you rather be in trouble for Jesus or in trouble with Jesus? * The Literature of Liberation: Eric unpacks the profound personal impact of his recent reading list, breaking down the historical shifts in evangelicalism from Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez, the urgency of active dismantling in Ibram X. Kendi’s How to Be an Anti-Racist, and the dense, essential survival strategies outlined in Howard Thurman’s Jesus and the Disinherited. * The Color Line in the Pews: Why does the modern white church environment feel like it trades the grief of Good Friday for the permanent, saccharine comfort of Easter Sunday? Eric and John confront the reality of Christian nationalism, the hollow neutrality of being "colorblind," and how white spaces frequently sanitize the essential element of Christian faith: suffering. * Eric's Personal Arc: In a rare and raw moment of vulnerability, Eric shares the personal journey of navigating his dual identity as a half-Black, half-Italian kid raised in Central Jersey. He opens up about early childhood bullying from family members, the exact moment he truly realized he was Black, and the continuous journey of drinking deeply from his Black roots and culture later in life. If today’s conversation sparked something in you, we’d love for you to join the community. Follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so that you never miss an episode, and find us on TikTok and Instagram!