Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Joel Snyder, Founder & President, Audio Description Associates, LLC and Founding Director Emeritus, ACB's Audio Description Project

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Joel Snyder, Founder & President, Audio Description Associates, LLC and Founding Director Emeritus, ACB's Audio Description Project

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Joel Snyder, Founder & President, Audio Description Associates, LLC and Founding Director Emeritus, ACB's Audio Description Project https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-02-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-02-2026/] In this wide-ranging episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk welcomes Joel Snyder [https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-snyder-626aa95/], founder and president of Audio Description Associates, LLC [https://audiodescribe.com/], and founding director emeritus of the ACB's Audio Description Project [https://adp.acb.org/], for a history and status check on audio description. Snyder traces the field from its 1980 origins at Washington, D.C.'s Arena Stage (where he helped Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl and Chet Avery invent the technique, premiering it in 1981 with George Bernard Shaw's Major Barbara) through WGBH's Descriptive Video Service, the Secondary Audio Program, VHS and DVD, and the 2010 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, up to today's streaming era. He demonstrates description live with a segment from the Iranian film The Color of Paradise and walks through the ACB Audio Description Project's resources, its annual conference, training institutes, the BADIE youth contest, and the nearly 15,000-title database at https://adp.acb.org [https://adp.acb.org]. The conversation then turns to AI, where Snyder argues that while AI text-to-speech narration has its place, nothing matches a trained, often blind, human voice talent for dramas and feature films. He proves it by playing two versions of a Call of Duty: Black Ops 6 description he wrote, one voiced by ElevenLabs, one voiced by himself, and Kirk immediately prefers the human take. Snyder closes on the economics (~$5,000 to describe a film that cost $50 million to make) and points listeners to https://audiodescribe.com [https://audiodescribe.com] and https://adp.acb.org [https://adp.acb.org]. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. I am that Dr. Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today, a guest I've known for quite some time. Today we have Joel Snyder with us. He's founder and president of Audio Description Associates, LLC, and he is founding director emeritus of ACB's — the American Council of the Blind's — Audio Description Project. So, hello, Joel. Joel Snyder: Hello, Kirk. It's great to be with you. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so glad you're here. So it was interesting, because the ACB's Audio Description Project came up about two hours ago. Oh, my. I was interviewing David Grabias, who's the producer of a documentary called Braille [Brailled It], about the Braille Challenge. Joel Snyder: Wonderful. Dr. Kirk Adams: And one of the participants and directors is a Braille Challenge winner named Christopher Morgan. And we were talking about the documentary and where it's showing, and they said, 'We'll be doing a special showing at the upcoming ACB conference, in conjunction with their Audio Description Project.' Joel Snyder: There you go. Sure. Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. So I've known about Joel for about as long as I've known about audio description, and I can't remember when I first experienced it, but I remember being really excited about the whole concept. And I know, for many years, it was kind of hard to find recorded materials — films, television programs, documentaries — that had audio description. Becoming more common now, which is a wonderful thing. I was across the lake here on the Microsoft Redmond campus last fall with a group called the Pacific Northwest Accessibility Professionals. And we went to the Microsoft disability lab, and they were showing a short film piece about Microsoft's disability efforts. And I heard a voice doing audio description. My wife and I— Ros said, 'That's Joel.' So everywhere I go, there you are. Joel Snyder: There you are. You can't get away from me. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's right. So, so pleased that you gave us some time today. You've been involved in audio description since the very beginning, so we'd love to hear a little bit of a history lesson about how it's developed and evolved and, of course, your personal journey. And then, really, where we're at today. What are the opportunities to expand and enhance access for people who are blind and visually impaired to media and entertainment? Of course, the dynamics around artificial intelligence and how that fits into the picture. And then, where do you see things going? So I'm just going to hand it over to you. I will reserve the right as host to jump in with the random questions as they pop into my mind. Joel Snyder: Of course. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's all yours. Joel Snyder: It's your show, Kirk. Well, it's great to be with you, and I'm glad you mentioned being out on the Microsoft campus, because Microsoft — and VITAC, owned now by a company called Verbit — are really one of my largest clients. I mentioned that to offer a tip of the hat to Satya Nadella and Microsoft, because they, as an obviously major, huge corporation, have a real commitment to accessibility. People may not know that they produce thousands of short videos every year — promotional videos, educational videos for their staff, commercials, that sort of thing. And they are committed to making every piece of media that they produce accessible. Captioned. They're all audio described. And that's— not too many corporations make that commitment — but it's increasing. We're seeing more description in the private sector like that. And that's a good thing. Dr. Kirk Adams: For those listening who may not be familiar with audio description, could you give just a brief explanation of what it is, and maybe some examples of it — or people can hear it, or do a little demonstration? Yeah, let's do that. Joel Snyder: Audio description. My tagline, my own company, is The Visual Made Verbal, really. And that's the title of my book ACB published in 2014: The Visual Made Verbal, a comprehensive training manual and guide to the history and applications of audio description. And I'm pleased to mention that it's in Braille. It's available for free on BARD. It is in two different audiobook versions, and printed now in seven languages. So it's gotten out and about. And it all kind of stems from work that I did in the '70s. I've always been involved in theater and acting and voice work. And in the early '70s, I remember reading textbooks for a blind student at the University of Maryland. And that went very well. I enjoyed that a lot. That led to recording talking books for the Library of Congress here in Washington, D.C. And that led to my finding out about a radio station here — the Metropolitan Washington Ear. And there's — oh, golly, Kirk, you know better than I do — perhaps two dozen of these closed-circuit radio stations that broadcast on a subcarrier of a public radio, perhaps. And they provide readings of the daily newspaper, of novels, short stories, magazine articles. And I thought that was a wonderful way to use my voice and get some good experience. So I auditioned to be a voice talent volunteer for the Washington Ear. And they must have had a weak moment or something, and they— Dr. Kirk Adams: That I didn't know about you. So I was involved with the Washington Talking Book and Braille Library here. They had the Evergreen Radio Reading Service. There you— Joel Snyder: Go. Exactly. And so I did that for a good ten years. I was the voice of the Washington Post on Sundays on the Washington Ear. And even in the '70s, I remember wondering about — gee, there are all kinds of images in a newspaper. There are graphics, there are illustrations, there are photos. What do we do when we get to those? Sometimes there's a caption, sometimes not. We could certainly read the caption, but what is it? How is the photo really put together? What's it look like? And we just sort of — we kind of ad-libbed a little something about it. But there was no such thing as audio description until 1980, when the founder of the Ear, Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl, a blind woman, and a good friend of mine, Chet Avery, a blind man who had worked at the Department of Education — they were on a committee, an access committee for Arena Stage here in Washington, a very well-known regional theater. And if you think about that: 1980, having an accessibility committee — nobody was doing that. More common now, perhaps. And they were at a meeting, and Arena was all excited because they had just installed an assisted listening system. And again, that's ubiquitous — everybody has a system that boosts sound for folks with hearing loss, and you wear a headset and you hear the movie or the production a little more clearly, a little more loudly. And of course, Chet and Margaret are on the committee, and they thought, this is wonderful — but what have you got for us? We're blind. We can hear. And they figured, if it's just a microphone on the stage, couldn't you have a second channel? Someone holding a microphone offstage, letting us know what's going on — maybe using the pauses between bits and pieces of dialogue, or critical sound elements. And Arena said, gee, we've never heard of that before. And Margaret said, yeah, we've never heard of it before either. It didn't exist. But they knew that Margaret had access to a studio. And, well — Margaret, why don't you think about it, and we'll give it a go if you can figure out how we would do such a thing. And so she came back to the Ear. She grabbed me — I was an actor and voice talent and an English teacher — and we had a couple of others. And we sat down and thought about how we would do this. I was already a union member, an acting union member, so I had some insight to provide. But we just sort of hammered out the basics of what we would do. What would we call it? Audio description. We came up with— Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Joel Snyder: And nowadays, I think most people refer to it as audio description, but others have taken their own tack with it. And it's called verbal description, or audio narration, or descriptive audio. Or WGBH — when they started doing things, they wanted to brand it in a certain way, so they called it Descriptive Video Service. And everybody was talking about DVS as a synonym, really, for audio description. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, okay — but it's all the same thing. Joel Snyder: Exactly, exactly. It really is. And so, 1981 was the premiere of audio description with live theater — a premiere of an audio description service. Let's see, it was a production of George Bernard Shaw's Major Barbara at Arena Stage. And it went well. People began hearing about it, and other theaters, eventually — dance, opera, all kinds of performing arts forms. And my good friend Barry Cronin, still with us — he was at WGBH in Boston, and he heard about what we were doing and thought, wow, this should be on television. This should be something folks could use to access video and analog television in those days. And he knew something that we did not know, and that was: he knew all about the Secondary Audio Program. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Joel Snyder: Available. With television, it allows folks to turn on a second audio channel. And it was there for Spanish translation, actually, but not used much. And he thought, well, this would be perfect for description. So we actually — oh golly, in about 1980— Dr. Kirk Adams: Joel, we always have our audio description turned on — yes, on television — and often need to turn it off when the sporting event starts, and the Spanish play-by-play. My Spanish is rudimentary, so I turn off the audio description feature so I can hear the English play-by-play. Joel Snyder: You and many thousands of other blind folks around the country. No, you're absolutely right, that's how it works. And we did, in 1984, '85, a pilot for WGBH — we wrote and voiced a description for a number of American Playhouse programs. And I wrote and voiced three of the first programs broadcast with audio description, and it went well. And so, in 1985, WGBH inaugurated their Descriptive Video Service. And it's just gone on from there. They started doing description on VHS videotapes. You remember those? Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, yes. Joel Snyder: And then some folks were taking the original audio from a program and pairing it with audio description and putting it out there on audio cassettes. That's another oldie but goodie. So it got picked up for television. Eventually VHS was a great thing, but you couldn't turn it on and off. You had to have dual inventory at Blockbuster Video. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So you'd have the audio-described version and the non-audio-described version. Okay. Joel Snyder: Exactly. And that's a bit cumbersome. Yeah. But, you know, DVDs came out, and that's a perfect bit of hardware for using audio description, because you could turn it on and off, like director's commentary. So that was very popular. Nowadays, DVDs are kind of rare, basically. But we have description now on streaming. Just about every commercial film that comes out has an audio description track. So one can access it in the movie theaters, television too. In 2010, really, President Obama signed the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, and that was the first time legislation actually mandated audio description with broadcast television. Captioning had been around for years and had already been mandated. And these days, of course, it's at 100% — of television programs must be captioned. We haven't caught up with description; it's still a tiny, tiny percentage of all broadcasts. But eventually, I think that legislation will be revised — and it's in the works, actually, in Congress — and hopefully we'll see that passed and signed into law, and we'll have a lot more description on broadcast television. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Joel Snyder: So, but yeah — I've got a little sample that I think might go on. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, let's hear it. Joel Snyder: It's a— I use this— I train describers all around the world, and I oftentimes use this as a demonstration. This is a short excerpt from the feature film The Color of Paradise. Got about 25 years old now, made in Iran. Beautiful film. A major motion picture — was in movie theaters and broadcast on television. But some time ago, before audio description was popular, before it was available in movie theaters. So I thought, let's listen to a short segment of the film — the original audio track, professional film, professional soundtrack. You just listen to it, and that should be no problem, right? Let's give it a try. What can you glean about the film by listening only? Dr. Kirk Adams: Joel, we're not hearing it. Joel Snyder: You weren't hearing anything? Dr. Kirk Adams: No — we're hearing something. It was just a couple squawks. Joel Snyder: That's right. Well, actually— Dr. Kirk Adams: That's it. Joel Snyder: That's it. I played only 30 seconds. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Joel Snyder: The whole— Dr. Kirk Adams: —thing goes. All right. Joel Snyder: The segment goes two and a half minutes. Dr. Kirk Adams: We heard a couple of squawks, and— Joel Snyder: Yeah, and it just happens — that's a segment of the film where there's no dialogue. There's just these birds squawking. And I don't know — Kirk, you would know better than I would, but if I was a blind person, after 30 seconds I'd be out of the movie theater. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Joel Snyder: I don't get it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Joel Snyder: I'd be with my elbow to the guy next to me, saying, 'What? Why? What's going on? Wait. Tell me.' And then we get thrown out of the movie theater. So audio description takes care of that issue. So what I'll play right now is the segment. Dr. Kirk Adams: Maybe. Joel Snyder: Let it go on. It's only a couple minutes. And what you'll hear now is those squawks again, but you'll also hear the audio description that I wrote and voiced when this was broadcast on national television — oh golly, about 20 years ago, something like that. So let's try to see, by listening. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. [Demo audio — The Color of Paradise, description written and voiced by Joel Snyder]: Mohammad kneels and taps his hands through the thick ground cover of brown curled leaves. Brown nestling struggles on the ground near Mohammad's hand. His palm hovers above the baby bird. He lays his hand lightly over the tiny creature. Smiling, Mohammad curls his fingers around the chick and scoops it into his hands. He stands and strokes its nearly featherless head with a fingertip. Mohammad starts as the bird nips his finger. He taps his finger on the chick's gaping beak. He tilts his head back, then drops it forward. Mohammad tips the chick into his front shirt pocket, wrapping his legs and arms around a tree trunk. Mohammad climbs. He latches onto a tangle of thin upper branches. His legs flail for a foothold. Mohammad stretches an arm between a fork in the trunk of the tree and wedges in his head and shoulder. His shoes slip on the rough bark. He wraps his legs around the lower trunk, then uses his arms to pull himself higher. He rises into thicker foliage and holds onto tangles of smaller branches, gaining his footing. Mohammad stands upright and cocks his head to one side. An adult bird flies from a nearby branch. Mohammad extends his open hand. He touches a branch and runs his fingers over wide green leaves. He pats his hand down the length of the branch. His fingers trace the smooth bark of the upper branches, search the network of connecting tree limbs, and discover their joints. Above his head, Mohammad's fingers find a dense mass of woven twigs. A bird's nest. Smiling, he removes the chick from his shirt pocket and drops it gently into the nest beside another fledgling. He rubs the top of the chick's head with his index finger. Mohammad wiggles his finger like a worm and taps a chick's open beak. Smiling, he slowly lowers his hand. Joel Snyder: Wow, that's a lot more clear, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. I'm sorry — I said we're not hearing anything but a few squawks. Joel Snyder: Oh, that's all right. That's the point, really. Dr. Kirk Adams: And, yeah. Joel Snyder: Yeah — that movie provides a great example, I think. And what's fun also is, I'll ask folks at this point, 'Well, tell me — what did you learn about Mohammad just from having listened to the audio description of his relationship with the birds and the trees and nature?' And they'll say, 'Oh, he's a young boy. He's thin, perhaps wiry. He can climb trees. He's compassionate. He likes animals.' And all of that's true. But what oftentimes they don't pick up on — some people will, certainly — is that Mohammad himself, his visage, what he looks like, had already been described earlier in the film. You hear that in this segment — you hear he has a shirt with a pocket, and he's got shoes, and he has pants on. I've seen the film, I know that. But what you discover — and I think you discover, if you're listening closely to that segment — Mohammad is blind. He's a young boy, about 11 years old, totally blind. And he listens to what's going on. And not only that, his fingers are active. They find the nest in the tree. They trace— Dr. Kirk Adams: —the branches, and— Joel Snyder: —such. So it's a nice segment, very nice. I use that to teach different fundamentals of description techniques that we use. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, let's talk a little bit about the American Council of the Blind — their role, the Audio Description Project, how that can be a resource for people. ACB has been a very forward-thinking leader in this space. I think in your introduction, it was 'founding director emeritus.' So it sounds like you've been involved from the beginning there as well. Joel Snyder: That's right. It basically— it was in, golly, 2010, working with Christopher Gray and Mitch Pomerantz, who were officers of the ACB in those days. We thought, there ought to be a blindness service organization that really champions audio description and teaches people about it, because it was getting more and more popular. And they bought into it. And just from an idea like that, it has grown into really an important repository for information about audio description. The project now— well, we have a conference every year. There are awards given for the great audio description happening in this country and abroad. We have a great contest for blind kids who write in and provide reviews of described material. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Joel Snyder: It's called BADIE — Benefits of Audio Description in Education. We do two training institutes to train describers. We've done 27 of them to date, now two a year usually. But our most visible initiative is probably the website, which is simply adp.acb.org. When we started, relatively few DVDs were out there with description. And now, just on our website, we list almost 15,000 DVDs that have description, or they're streaming. And you can look by state, actually, and find out what movie theaters, what movies, what performing arts space, what museums in your region have audio description. So it's been an important service, I think, for anybody that gets hooked on audio description. And we've got a lot of folks out there now who really champion it. Dr. Kirk Adams: I see a social media post on Facebook from ADP and ACB that say, 'Five new titles on Netflix,' and list the titles. Joel Snyder: Yeah, we— Dr. Kirk Adams: You've tracked that programming. Absolutely. You keep a current, constantly updated database, then. Joel Snyder: That's right, that's right. Dr. Kirk Adams: For people who are blind or visually impaired, or people who just want to check it out— Joel Snyder: That's right. Dr. Kirk Adams: —find an audio-described title. Joel Snyder: That's right. I mean, I'll give hats off to Fred Brack, who's been the longtime webmaster. He does a lot of that work, checking out — making sure we have current information about what's described. And a woman named Diana Leonard is the Audio Description Project coordinator. And she's low vision, and they do a great job just pulling together all the different aspects of the project. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, adp.acb.org. Joel Snyder: Exactly. Thank you. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, I don't know if it's an elephant in the room, but it's something big in the room. It's called artificial intelligence. Joel Snyder: Oh my. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I know, last time we spoke, you had just returned from an international conference, speaking about this. So there's so much excitement about artificial intelligence and what it can do. And there's so much concern about the damage that it might cause, whether on purpose or unintended. So, I'd love to get from you — the voice of authority on audio description — what your thoughts are on the role of artificial intelligence, now and going forward. Joel Snyder: Sure. And with regard to audio description, I think about it in two ways. First, the voicing of the audio description. Until relatively recently, we had professional voice talents trained in the voicing of audio description. And, you know, Kirk, many of those voice talents that do description are people who are totally blind. It's a great job for folks who have that particular perspective, obviously, on audio description — but they've studied it, too. And they know what makes good audio description. They have good vocal chops and such. So that's out there, and it's a kind of employment, obviously, in a community that— I always hear the number: 70% of people who are blind are unemployed. The advent of artificial intelligence with audio description — AI in the voicing of description — what that amounts to is speech synthesis, text-to-speech generation, which has its place. And AI has its place as well. I think artificial intelligence promises all kinds of marvelous techniques, marvelous advances in all manner of endeavor. But I think we need to think it through carefully. For instance, in the voicing of description, what the leaders in this area have been able to do is create voices that sound human. And that's great. And it's great for your answering machine. It's great for some recording. It's great for reading your email to you, or reading a text, perhaps. But I maintain — and actually the American Council of the Blind maintains — that for dramas, for feature films, comedies, nothing matches what a trained audio description voice talent can do. There are nuances, there are subtleties that I've not heard speech synthesis be able to handle. And in fact, I oftentimes quote a woman who's a blind voice talent. I've used her for— yeah, you probably know— Dr. Kirk Adams: I know she used to live here in Washington state back in the day. Joel Snyder: There you go, there you go. She's done a lot of voicing of description. In fact, she was the voice of the description for the series Seinfeld. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. Joel Snyder: And I love to talk about what she said once, when she was on a panel at a conference. And she was asked by a representative from a big media company — I'm not going to say which one, but they have heavily invested in AI audio description narration. And the representative said, 'Aren't you grateful that we're able to describe so much more content now, thanks to AI?' And she gave the perfect answer, Kirk. She said, 'Yeah, yeah, I'm grateful — in the same way that, when the power goes out, I'm grateful for a wind-up generator. I'm glad it's there, but I want normal electricity to be the standard, not wind-up generators.' Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Joel Snyder: And, tangential to that — you have these big media companies. You know how much it costs, Kirk, to produce audio description for a feature film? About $5,000. And feature films these days cost $50 million. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right, right, right. Joel Snyder: $5,000 is less than it cost to cater the cast and crew for one day on set. Wow. So I don't quite buy the notion that, oh, we'll be able to do so much more. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Joel Snyder: Saving money. It gets into a quantity-versus-quality issue. And I will always go with quality first. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Joel Snyder: So, I've got another quick example, actually, Kirk — if you'll indulge me. And in fact, this is fun, because we were talking about Microsoft a bit ago, and their commitment to audio description — the highest quality of audio description. Well, Microsoft owns Xbox, so we do description for lots of Xbox game promotions and commercials and such. And I took the script that we developed — and I voiced it, actually — but I took just the script and I fed it into ElevenLabs, which is a big company that promotes speech synthesis. And I want you to listen to the script we wrote, as produced, as voiced by ElevenLabs. Here you go. [Demo audio — Call of Duty: Black Ops 6, AI-generated description via ElevenLabs]: The agency is compromised. We're being hunted from the inside. An operator sticks a grenade to an enemy and shoves them backwards. The operator in sunglasses sets off a bomb with a remote control. You don't trust me, but it might be better if you do. Hey, some you should see. What the hell are we getting into? An operator in a wheelchair shows an operator with a mustache. Video footage. Don't trust any. The mustache operator wipes fog off the window of a telephone booth, revealing the operator in sunglasses outside the. An operator in body armour aims a massive gun. Truth from a helicopter. A gunman fires turret gun at snowy military buildings. They broke into a CIA black site. Lies you out of your mind. Things got complicated. The operator in sunglasses rides a motorcycle out of a building and uses a police car as a ramp to soar over a police barricade. He looks over his shoulder as a car explodes behind him. From first person, an operator cuts a rope, tethering them to a helicopter. They fall out of a broken building and tumble through the air, falling toward an open helicopter door below them. May God continue to bless the United States of America. Call of Duty: Black Ops 6. Joel Snyder: So, Kirk, my question to you is: what the heck is going on? Dr. Kirk Adams: I did chuckle when I heard the totally flat affect. Yes. 'Enormous gun.' Joel Snyder: 'A grenade' — I don't know what that is. Yeah, it's just an obvious sort of error. And the flat affect — you're absolutely right, Kirk, you picked up on that. And so, let's just listen to this a minute — the same piece that we wrote description for, and I voiced. Okay, this is what we provided to Microsoft to use for Xbox. [Demo audio — Call of Duty: Black Ops 6, description written and voiced by Joel Snyder]: The agency is compromised. We're being hunted from the inside. An operator sticks a grenade to an enemy and shoves them backwards. The operator in sunglasses sets off a bomb with a remote control. It's just me. But it might be better if you do. Hey, Sam, you should see. What the hell are we getting into? An operator in a wheelchair shows an operator with a mustache. Video footage. Don't trust anyone. The mustached operator wipes off the window of a telephone booth, revealing the operator in sunglasses. Outside, an operator in body armor aims a massive gun from a helicopter. A gunman fires a turret gun and snowy military buildings. He broke into a CIA black site. Lives. Are you out of your mind? Things got complicated. The operator in sunglasses rides a motorcycle out of a building and uses a police car as a ramp to soar over a police barricade. He looks over his shoulder as a car explodes behind him. From first person, an operator cuts a rope, tethering them to a helicopter. They fall out of a broken building and tumble through the air, falling toward an open helicopter door below them. May God continue to bless the United States of America. Call of Duty: Black Ops 6. Dr. Kirk Adams: I prefer choice B. Joel Snyder: Well, thank you, thank you. But when audio description first started, with television, there was so much focus — as there should be, in the writing — on objectivity, not steering the listener one way or the other in the writing. But the early voice talents took that on to mean there should be a flat affect, as you call it. Audio description voice talents were referred to as golf announcers — sort of whispering. And I think we've grown past that, to the point where we're not in the movie, but we need to be of the movie. We're not actors, we're not trying to take focus, but we need to suggest the same tone. If it's happy, there's a light tone. If it's a sad film, there's a more somber tone. If it's an action film, there's an action in the voice. So that's— it's all part of how we've evolved, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I think what you just played — those two segments, one AI-generated and one you voiced — makes the point. And I really appreciate that you gave us those examples. You know, Joel, our time flew by. How can people get in touch with you, and your Audio Description Associates, and the Audio Description Project? And how do people learn more and connect? Joel Snyder: Well, the easiest thing — my website is simply audiodescribe.com. But people can contact me very simply at jsnyder@audiodescribe.com. And I welcome inquiries and questions and such. The Audio Description Project — again, that website is adp.acb.org. And sometimes I respond to questions that come over from the website, but Diana and Fred are in charge of things now, and they do a great job responding to questions — and lots of information there, on the Audio Description Project website. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's great. And as for me, my website is drkirkadams.com. I have an email sign-up, I've got an inquiry form. I'm on LinkedIn every day — Kirk Adams, PhD. So reach out to Joel, learn more about audio description. If you have a project that involves creating visual imagery, and you want it to be accessible, enjoyable, usable by as many people as possible, you need to include audio description — and Joel can steer you in the right direction. So reach out to Joel, reach out to me. And thank you so much, Joel. The genesis of audio description — describing Major Barbara at the Arena Stage — that is something I never knew. So I have a new, valuable piece of blindness community history. I appreciate that very much. It's a long, long way to go, but at least we're moving in the right direction. Joel Snyder: Thank you so much. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks, Joel. And we'll see you — see you all next time on another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with David Grabias, Documentary Filmmaker, Writer / Director & Producer of Brailled It and Christopher Morgan, Braille Challenge Champion and Co-Director of Brailled It

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with David Grabias, Documentary Filmmaker, Writer / Director & Producer of Brailled It, Founder of Artifact, LA and Christopher Morgan, Braille Challenge Champion and Co-Director of Brailled It, USA National-Team Goalball Athlete https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-01-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-01-2026/] In this energizing episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk, fresh from the Braille Challenge gala at Braille Institute in Los Angeles, talks with documentary filmmaker David Grabias [https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-grabias-a557621/] and 18-year-old Christopher Morgan about Brailled It [https://brailledit.com/], a film about the Braille Challenge [https://www.brailleinstitute.org/braille-challenge/] made largely by the blind kids who compete in it. Grabias recounts how, on a whim, he wandered into the Braille Institute near his LA office, discovered the Braille Challenge, and realized the participants themselves should be the filmmakers; his company, Artifact, handed small chest-mounted action cameras to about nine kids, and the footage from three of them, Christopher, Salome, and Isaiah, became the film. Christopher describes forgetting the camera was even on, the rarity and joy of being in a room full of blind peers, and how the young directors shaped what made the cut. The conversation ranges into Christopher's athletic journey, from an 11-year-old who told Kirk he'd be the first blind NBA player to a member of the USA men's national goalball prospect pool, and he gives a vivid primer on goalball, the only sport designed specifically for blind athletes. Grabias then lays out where Brailled It is headed: a Slamdance world premiere behind it, upcoming screenings at the NFB and ACB conventions and the Cincinnati Art Museum, a fall festival run and a multi-city accessible theatrical tour, and a still-secret collaboration with the Library of Congress and NLS. Details live at brailledit.com. They close on the film's motto, "Three, two, one, we brailled it." TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. I am that Dr. Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. We just slid from a gloomy, cloudy June to a gloomy, cloudy July here in Seattle. But we're not complaining, because we know many of our friends on the other side of the country are experiencing some serious heat issues, so we wish everyone the best. So, today, super excited. There's a documentary film made by blind kids called Brailled It, and it is about the Braille Challenge. And I was just at the Braille Challenge gala dinner at Braille Institute on the USC campus, Los Angeles, Saturday night. So the Braille Challenge is fresh — the energy is coursing through my veins from the evening. And we have with us right now David Grabias, who's one of the producers of the documentary Brailled It. Say hey, David. David Grabias: Hi, Kirk. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Dr. Kirk Adams: And we hope to be joined by Christopher Morgan, who is a Braille Challenge winner. He won a first-place award on Saturday. He is on the men's national goalball team. I met him when I had the privilege of keynoting the Braille Challenge in 2019, so I haven't talked to Christopher for seven years, so I hope he joins us. I'd love to catch up. And there he is. Christopher, I was just talking about you. This is Kirk Adams. We've started the podcast. I just mentioned that you would be joining us. I mentioned that you are a Braille Challenge champion. I was actually in the room Saturday night when you received your award. You're a director of the documentary film Brailled It. Yes. You are a member of the men's national goalball team. And I met you and your mom seven years ago, in 2019, the last time I was at the Braille Challenge. So, looking forward to catching up with you. So, just a couple of minutes: the Braille Challenge is 26 years old now. It is a program of Braille Institute of America, which is based in Los Angeles. And it is now an international competition — the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia, and now Kenya. And it allows blind kids, K-12, to embrace Braille, sharpen and hone their Braille skills, stay excited about Braille. My retina is detached. When I was five years old, I went to a school for blind kids, the Oregon State School, for first, second, and third grade. Thank you, Mrs. Summers — may you rest in peace. You taught me how to read and write Braille. I have an 80-character Braille display in front of me, a refreshable Braille tablet on my lap, a Perkins brailler to my left, slate and stylus in my drawer. So I'm all about Braille, and the Braille Challenge is super cool. Kids get to go to regional competitions and be scored on their reading comprehension and spelling and their reading and writing. And then those who advance beyond the regionals all gather together on the University of Southern California campus in Los Angeles and have further competitions and skill-building. And it's all capped off with a gala banquet that my wife and daughter and I attended Saturday night. As I mentioned earlier, Christopher received an award, and I love the Braille Challenge. And other people love it too. And I guess six months ago, I learned about a documentary film that was created by some of the blind kids who were in the competition. And they did the filming and editing and created this thing with the guidance of some experienced filmmakers, like David, and Christopher, who's one of the more experienced Braille Challenge participants, helped to shape the documentary as a director. They showed a clip at the beginning of the banquet featuring an enthusiastic young blind hockey player from Canada named Isaiah. I was seated at the table with his family. There was another young lady we met right when we entered the banquet on Saturday, named Salome. And she told me, all I care about is the food and winning. And, of course, she did win again. So it was a joyful, joyous time. And I just want to turn the microphone over to you, David, and you, Chris, and let you talk about the project — how it began, how the journey has gone so far, where you're at with it. And I know you have some really impactful visions for the future. So I'm going to turn it over to you. I will reserve the right as host to pop in with the random questions as they occur to me. So, it's all yours. David Grabias: Awesome. Yeah. And if you want, Christopher, I'll start off and then I'll throw to you as we get to the actual filming process, so you can talk about that. But yeah — obviously the Braille Challenge is an incredible event, and I've had the privilege of going and just observing and being there, gosh, about five or six years ago, I think, as you mentioned. And I walked away just so impressed with the event, with the kids who were competing, with the energy, with the community that was formed there, where people were reconnected. It goes without saying that one of the more powerful aspects of it is the opportunity for all these kids to be in a room with each other, and to meet each other, and to socialize, to network, to be in a group of their peers — which, for many folks, and Christopher, I'm sure, is no exception, is a real rarity and a pleasure. So, I'm a filmmaker by trade, a documentary filmmaker. I'm based here in Los Angeles. And so I observed, and I was so taken aback, and so I reached out to the organizers and proposed that we make a film. And over the course of about a year or so, we— Dr. Kirk Adams: Can I ask — what took you initially to the Braille Challenge? David Grabias: It's a funny story. I used to have an office around the corner here in Los Angeles, on Melrose — literally around the corner from where the Braille Institute offices are. And I would walk to lunch nearby on Vermont, which, again, is where the Braille Institute offices are. And they have this incredible— their buildings are these 1970s cement, kind of— it almost looks like a temple, or, I don't know. And I was just really curious: what goes on inside this incredible building? I see the sign — and I'm sighted, just for full disclosure — and, Braille Institute, gosh, I don't know much about Braille. And so, on a whim, just out of curiosity, I wandered into the lobby one day and started chatting with a staff person at the desk. And they were just talking about what they do and some of the activities. And they said, 'Oh yeah, and we've got this thing called Braille Challenge, which is happening in a month. You should come check it out.' Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. David Grabias: And again, kind of on a whim and out of curiosity — and, again, I'm sure the filmmaker part of me sensed that there might be some opportunity there. I reached out to the staff, and they were kind enough to get me a pass and get me invited. And so I spent two days just hanging out and watching and interacting and meeting the kids and the families, the TVIs and the organizers. And it was really — and I say this with all humility — it was a life-changing experience, to see the community come together, and to witness the energy, the enthusiasm, the excitement, the drama, you know? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. David Grabias: All of it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hurray for appreciative inquiry. So glad — glad you walked into the lobby. David Grabias: Exactly. It was just chance — really, fate. Having the office nearby, and having the curiosity to wander in. And, anyways, long story short: two years ago, it was the 25th anniversary of the Braille Challenge, and the folks at the Braille Institute reached out and they said, 'Hey, if you're going to make a film, it would be great if you could do it in honor of the 25th anniversary.' And so I said yes. And I work with a team at a company called Artifact, which is a documentary film production company. And we started thinking about how to make the film, and we actually went to a couple regional events — the qualifying-round events here in Southern California. And we brought a camera and we did a little bit of filming. And, again, we were meeting and observing, and it almost immediately became clear that the participants, the kids who were testing as part of the challenge — they needed to be the filmmakers. They needed to tell the story. Both from kind of an agency perspective, in terms of empowering them to tell their own stories, as well as just from the perspective that these kids — and Christopher will impress you shortly, as he begins talking — but they were such amazing, intelligent, creative individuals. And it was clear that they were going to make a film. If we were able to get them cameras and get them prepped, they would make a film that would be infinitely better than anything myself or some other sighted person could do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hear, hear to that. Thank you. David Grabias: Yeah. And so we reached out to a couple different organizations. The Temple Institute on Disabilities actually has a media program. We also reached out to some folks — Cal State LA, which is a big TVI training program, also has a class in media about, and by, blind and low-vision folks. And they gave us some perspective and some thoughts, and we settled on obtaining these kind of small action cameras. They're about — and this is a dated reference — but they're about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. David Grabias: And so, pretty small. And they're totally — you can drop them, they're waterproof, you can kick them around, whatever — they're totally durable. And you could either hold it, or there's like a chest mount with straps around your shoulders where you could just wear it and not think about it. And so, leading up to the competition, we reached out to about a dozen kids to see if they'd be interested in filming, if they were open to it, excited. And around nine of them said yes. And Christopher, who's joined us today, was one of those kids. And I'll pass it over to you, Christopher, in terms of just talking about your experience getting the camera, what you thought, and then, obviously, what it felt like to do the actual filming. Christopher Morgan: Thanks, David. And yeah, so, basically, I remember when David — and I think Brendan was the other one — reached out to me at first and was like, 'Hey, we're filming this film,' I was like, 'Absolutely, I would love to be part of it.' Because, like you mentioned, very rarely do we get to be in a room full of our own peers. Very rarely do we get to spend an extended amount of time with our own peers. And it's amazing, and it's so much fun. And that means so much to us — especially those of us who go to schools where we are, if not the only one, one of like maybe two or three, in a school of like 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 people. And it's just really awesome to have that experience. And just the connections that are made from those experiences — like, as you see in the film, I hang out with a lot of people that I've literally known for years, like me and Brooke, who's also in the film. We've known each other since 2017, and that friendship has just continued because of Braille Challenge, and because of just the time we get to spend together every year at Braille Challenge and everything. And then there's even friends that I've made more recently, like Emma, Grace, and Salome, even, you know— Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Christopher Morgan: We just look forward to seeing each other every time, every year when we go. So that's one thing. And then, just about the filming process — getting there, it was kind of like, okay, I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't really know what was going to happen. But then they would give us the cameras and everything, and it was just really cool. I mean, you literally could wear them. I just wore it around my— on my chest, and literally forgot about it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So you just went about all the activities of the Braille Challenge, but you had a camera on. Everything. Christopher Morgan: Honestly, there were some times where I would literally forget I had the camera on, and it would just be— you just got really interesting content. And even just going back and actually watching the film, I'm like, 'Wait, I was recording when I did this, when I said this,' whatever. And it was just so normal, it was just so normalized, I feel like. And I think that's what made it so easy to capture so much of the challenge — just the normality of it, and just how low-profile the cameras were, and how low-pressure it was, and how— Dr. Kirk Adams: How many participants had cameras? David Grabias: We had— during the challenge, we gave nine participants cameras. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. David Grabias: And then, as we started to get the footage back from everybody — I mean, first of all, we had to edit this into a reasonable-length film. We didn't have a seven-hour epic. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right. I wanted to ask Christopher about that. Because before we hit record on the podcast, David mentioned— Christopher, I said, 'How should I introduce you?' He said, 'You're a director of the documentary, and you help make decisions about what to include and what to exclude.' And I'm sure that was challenging. But if you had nine people filming, you obviously had tons of content to choose from — the materials that were to be included, which elements and which pieces of filming would be included. How did that go? How did you do that? David Grabias: Yeah. Well — and, again, all the participants filmed over the course of two, two and a half days. And at the end of each day, or intermittently through the day, we would get the memory cards, the footage from them, and save it. And then, afterwards, we worked with a sighted editor here in Los Angeles, in our office. And he basically went through, and for each participant created kind of a string-out of all the scenes, all the moments they had recorded. Not surprisingly, some participants would forget to turn their camera on for a half a day, or they would decide not to for whatever reason. Some of the participants were already nervous about the competition, and so they walked into the actual testing rooms— they decided not to film, just so that it didn't distract them. Whereas others did, like Christopher, Salome, and Isaiah — the three main participants, the three directors in the film, did. So, yeah, we ended up focusing on three individuals who had done the most filming. They had filmed pretty comprehensively their experiences over the course of the weekend. And then they also just had the most diversity of different kinds of moments and content. And they also clearly had kind of curated moments, for lack of a better word. Like, there's a wonderful scene in the film where Christopher kind of interviews his mom — they're talking in a hallway, talking about the Braille Challenge and the community. Or Isaiah, he prompts conversations with Luisa, another competitor, where they're talking about how long they've been blind and the nature of their blindness and that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, it was pretty quickly, pretty clear, pretty apparent that there were three participants who really had great material, a great series of scenes. So we honed in on them. There is footage from other participants that's included — in some scenes, Christopher might be interacting with a group of other participants, challenge finalists, and some of them are wearing cameras, so we're able to include footage from both sides of the conversation. Dr. Kirk Adams: Cool. David Grabias: But for the most part — I would say 90% of the footage is from those three participants. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? David Grabias: Yeah. And then we basically— oh, sorry, go ahead. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, you— David Grabias: You know, I was just going to say, we then took all the scenes that they had recorded, put them into a palatable kind of string-out, and then shared that with each of them and their families to get feedback — and to make sure, and Christopher can talk about it, there's some scenes where we wanted to make sure that everybody was on board with including them in the film. And you can, I'm sure, talk about that scene with your mom, Christopher. Christopher Morgan: There was a scene where I was walking down the hallway of the hotel. I get to my room, I swipe my card, I open the door. Suddenly I walk in the room, and, like, two seconds later, my mom's, like, clothes on. I was like, 'Oh, crap, I forgot my camera was on. My bad.' And I immediately just turn it off, and I'm like, 'Oh, shoot, like, that was not supposed to happen.' Dr. Kirk Adams: No, I remember meeting you and your mom. And— how old are you now, Christopher? Christopher Morgan: I'm sorry? Dr. Kirk Adams: How old are you now? Christopher Morgan: I'm 18. Dr. Kirk Adams: 18. So you must have been 11, because it was 2019. But I met you, and you're really, really into sports — basketball in particular. I remember talking to you. You were doing some stuff with the Atlanta Hawks, I think. And we talked about that. My dad was a high school basketball coach for 40 years, so you and I talked basketball for a few minutes. Christopher Morgan: And I actually remember that. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then, seven years later, they're giving announcements and they're saying, 'a member of the men's national goalball team.' So obviously your interest in competitive athletics has carried on. So I would love to hear a little bit about that. Tell the folks who don't know what goalball is, and how you came to be on the men's national team. Christopher Morgan: So, goalball, first of all, is the coolest sport you've never heard of. That is the best phrase I can use to describe it. Essentially, it is the only sport created specifically for people who are blind. It was created in response to World War II, to rehab veterans who were blinded during the war. And it is played, in its current state — there are two teams with three people on each team, that's on the court at one time. Each team can have more than three people, of course, because you have, like, reserve substitutions. But basically, the court — it is an indoor court, nine meters by 18 meters. And each team is tasked with defending a nine-meter-wide goal, which spans the whole width of the court. The three players— Dr. Kirk Adams: Just get it over the end line. Yeah? Christopher Morgan: To do what? Sorry? Dr. Kirk Adams: The goal is as wide as the end line. Christopher Morgan: Yes, yes — the goal is as wide as the court is. And it's 18 meters long. So, yeah, they have to defend the court. They have to work together to literally lie on the floor and block the goalball, which is a rubber ball. It weighs about three pounds, and it's about the size of a basketball, and it has bells inside. And it's rolled down the court — so it's rolled like a bowling ball down the court. And the other team, that's defending, has to block it and then pick it up and roll it back. After the block, you have 10 seconds to get it back down the court to the other team. So that's kind of the gist of it. Oh yeah — and then also, everyone wears blindfolds, because there's such a spectrum of blindness, where some people have a lot of vision and some people, like me, have absolutely zero vision. So, to make it fair, they have to have everyone wearing eye shades. But my journey with goalball began in 2017, technically. I was nine years old. I was at this sports camp, and I played goalball for the first time, and I was like, 'You know, it's fine, but it's just not my thing.' Fast forward to about two years later, I went to a couple practices with the youth team in Atlanta, and I actually started to see what was up with it. Well, then COVID happened. Dr. Kirk Adams: And— yeah. Christopher Morgan: I couldn't play for that long. So I really started playing in 2022, when COVID ended. I was invited to a couple practices then, and ever since then, I really took off with it. Because this was after I kind of had that big realization where, hey, I'm never going to be able to play basketball internationally, or competitively. I'm never going to be able to do that, because it's just not feasible. So goalball gave me the opportunity to do that. So, ever since 2022, I've been playing goalball really regularly. I've played with men, mostly, but I also do play with the youth, because I am still of age to play with youth. And I feel like a lot of my progress happened because, playing with people who are so much older, so much stronger than I am, I just progressed so much quicker. And it just forced me to be competitive. And so that caused me to really excel in youth goalball. We started out in 2022, our youth team winning no games at all the entire tournament. 2023, went back, and we won a bronze medal. The very next year, 2024, we went back again and won silver. And then, my last youth nationals, in 2025, we won gold. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's the way. Christopher Morgan: We actually beat the six-time defending national champion, who has not lost a game in, like, literally a long time. And it was just such a full-circle moment, for sure. And then, as far as getting involved with the USA program — last year I was invited to a USA team tryout, where there were 16 selected men's players from around the country. And we were all trying out for eight spots on the national team and four spots in what's called the prospect pool, which is still, again, part of that national team program. So, basically, out of those 16, you're having 12 that are getting selected to that program. So, basically, I made the four athletes that are part of the prospect pool. And I have been part of that ever since December of last year. And— Dr. Kirk Adams: Congratulations. Christopher Morgan: Thank you so much. And then we get to try out again in September to make the national team prospect pool again, so I'll have to try out again. But as part of the national team, I've been able to go to a couple training camps and learn even more, and, you know, doing more growth. I've also had the privilege of going to Berlin, Germany, to compete in an international tournament with the team back in March, at the Global Nations Cup. And then, later this year, I'm going to Astana, Kazakhstan, to compete in the youth world championships for goalball. This is with the youth national team — but I'll be competing with them in December. So that's a bit of a spiel on goalball. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. So — I've been thinking as you've been talking. We'll get back to Brailled It, the documentary, in a minute. But when you were 11 years old, you very, very confidently told me and my wife that you were going to be the first blind NBA player. And you believed that in your heart. And your mom was supportive, and you were doing some stuff with the Atlanta Hawks — so you were involved with the NBA as an 11-year-old. But at some point you pivoted, right? You said, 'I want to be a top, world-class athlete, and I have an impairment. I can't see. The game of basketball was designed for people who can see. It might not be a great fit for me. But here's this other sport that is actually designed for people like myself who are blind, and I can be the best in the world at that.' So — exactly. I probably encapsulated several years of thought and positioning and framing, but that's the way I see that journey. And I just want to point that out to people. Christopher Morgan: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, pretty much, dreaming big is a good thing. You might not get to where you started, where you thought you'd go, but you'll get somewhere great. Christopher Morgan: Yeah. So, pretty much, what I'll say about how that became a bit of a realization is — I would say that, really, as I got older and as I realized, 'Yo, I am nowhere near able to compete with these guys' — it really started happening when I was in, like, fifth grade and middle school, and it was like they'd have to make modifications to the game in order for me to play. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Christopher Morgan: And it just showed how much needed to change for me to be able to even have a fair chance — a close-to-fair chance. And, meanwhile, there's a sport, goalball, where there's no modifications made. And it's like, I— Dr. Kirk Adams: —designed for you. Christopher Morgan: Right, right. And I can do as well, as good as I can at it, with no modifications made. And that's just how it is. It's made specifically for me. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So, back to Brailled It. Did you ever think you would be a documentary filmmaker? Christopher Morgan: No, absolutely not. I thought it would be cool to make a movie or something. And I have been involved in making YouTube videos for a couple years now. Haven't really done it as often lately, but for a while I was making YouTube videos pretty regularly. And I thought those were pretty cool. I thought about possibly becoming a famous YouTuber, but I really never thought that it would really happen. I never thought that I'd be able to really make a movie or a documentary of any kind. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, but now you have. So — David, the film. I'm not a film person, I don't know what the right language is, but I see terms like 'distribution' and 'release' and 'limited screenings.' I see those words, but where are you at in the arc of getting the film out, so people can experience it and learn about the Braille Challenge and enjoy the work of these amazing young blind people? David Grabias: Yeah. So, the film premiered — we had our world premiere at the Slamdance Film Festival, I guess about two months or so ago, here in Los Angeles, which was fantastic. It played to sold-out theaters at that film festival. And it will continue to play at film festivals around the country, starting this fall. But, really, for us, the goal has been to really get people talking about the idea of cinema — not just for the blind, not just accessibility in terms of audio description, but by the blind. What does it mean for a blind, low-vision person to make a film? And how does that change the way that we think about the medium, the way that we think about the art form? And I know, for myself, I am so excited and so inspired by that line of thinking. Won't be a surprise to either of you guys, but so often, when we talk about the project with other sighted people, they're like, 'What do you mean? One person made a movie, they can't see what they're filming — how can they make a film?' But that's kind of the point. And there is something really revolutionary and wonderful about giving folks who can't see cameras and having them record their experiences from their perspective. And what it does is, cinema is so often seen as a visual medium — it actually kind of revolutionizes it, transforms it from a visual-first to an audio-first medium, right? Dr. Kirk Adams: Because — yeah. David Grabias: Yeah. A blind filmmaker, obviously, they're responding to audio, what's happening around them, that way. And for sighted people, I think being forced to submit to this audio primacy versus a visual primacy — it can be challenging for some audiences, but I think it's a really powerful and, not to mix metaphors, but an eye-opening experience. I think it's really a consciousness-raising— it makes you conscious, right? You're like, 'Oh, well, this is the way that this person is understanding and interacting with the world. And how does that transform my experience of the world?' So there's something super powerful there that we're excited about. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, someone listening right now wants to see it. They need to find a film festival they go to? David Grabias: Yes. So, there's film festival dates. And then we have a couple sneak-preview screenings. We have one that's happening at the NFB conference coming up soon, which Christopher will be at in person, which is super exciting. We're also doing a screening at ACB, at their event, in partnership with — they have what's called the Audio Description Project. So, working with them, and we've got a screening happening there. We have one other kind of preview screening happening in Cincinnati in a couple of weeks, as part of Disability Pride Month, that's happening at Cincinnati Art Museum. But, really, our distribution, all that stuff, will start in the fall. There's a very special event that I can't yet speak about publicly — kind of a secret event — but it's in collaboration with the Library of Congress and the NLS. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, when you can reveal the details, let me know, and I'll put it out on the blog so people listening here can catch up. So, is there a website, or a way people can see where the film festival dates are? David Grabias: Yep. So, there's a website, which is www.brailledit.com. And all screenings and information will be posted there. You can also, on that website, sign up for our mailing list, and you'll get an email blast every week or two from us. There's also, on that website, a place where you can submit a request to have a local community screening. So, later in the fall, we'll be working with community organizations literally all over the world to do screenings — be it with schools, advocacy groups, or other organizations that are serving the community. So all of that is on the website. You can also check us out on Instagram and Facebook. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's— everything's 'Nailed It,' right? David Grabias: 'Nailed It' — and Brailled It, the movie — okay, those are the tags. And then we'll be having a multi-city theatrical tour, so we'll be playing in movie theaters all over the country, again, starting this fall. And all of those screenings, again, are accessible. The film is fully audio described, and has captions that are in a font specifically designed for low-vision audiences. In addition, we have Braille transcripts, so you can follow along — or, for DeafBlind individuals, they can even participate. And then, in every city where we do a theatrical stop, we're hoping for those theater events to get as many people from the blind, low-vision community to come out — to demonstrate to the theater owners that there is an audience out there. And, geez, wouldn't it be nice if your audio description equipment worked? And wouldn't it be nice if you showed more films with audio description? And then— Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, when— let me know so I can help plan Seattle, so I can get lots of blind people in Seattle to the theater. David Grabias: I would love— Dr. Kirk Adams: —it. I go popcorn and Milk Duds at the movies. So that's what I'll be doing. David Grabias: I love it. No, that's great. And, yeah, Seattle for sure will be one of the stops. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. Well, reach out — https://brailledit.com, Brailled It: The Movie — get in touch with David and the team. See what David, Christopher, Isaiah, Salome, the whole team has put together. It's quite amazing. Reach out to me — https://drkirkadams.com — if you want to sign up for my newsletter, or @KirkAdamsPhD on LinkedIn. And at the close of the gala Saturday night in Los Angeles, where Christopher won — again won — his first-place prize, we said, 'Three, two, one — we brailled it!' So these guys have brailled it. And please connect. Coming to a theater near you. We'll talk to you next time on Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Lauren DeVillier, CEO, Exceptional Minds

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Lauren DeVillier, CEO, Exceptional Minds https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-06-24-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-06-24-2026/] In this warm and practical episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk welcomes Lauren DeVillier [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauren-devillier/], Chief Executive Officer of Exceptional Minds [https://exceptional-minds.org], the Los Angeles nonprofit academy and working studios that train young adults on the autism spectrum for careers in animation, visual effects, and a newly launching game-arts program. DeVillier traces her path from property manager on Bill Nye the Science Guy through Microsoft, Yahoo, and Disney to her first year leading Exceptional Minds, and lays out how the organization works: a three-to-four-year vocational academy (mirrored online nationwide), two revenue-generating studios doing VFX and animation for major studios like Marvel, Sony, Disney, and Blumhouse, and a blended funding model of tuition, California self-determination/regional-center funds, earned studio income, and $1.5–2M a year in fundraising. The conversation's through-line is DeVillier's strategic pivot from developing talent to developing workplaces, employer training and a new career-and-student-services center to place graduates into neuro-inclusive jobs, framed by her conviction that accommodations are "low-hanging fruit" that benefit everyone, not a "nice-to-have." She shares the PATH Water Autism Acceptance Month bottle designed by Exceptional Minds artist Benny, reflects on how the work has deepened her relationship with her own neurodivergent daughter, and points listeners to https://exceptional-minds.org [https://exceptional-minds.org]. Kirk closes by half-jokingly recruiting Starbucks for a design partnership and promising to "break bread" with DeVillier in Southern California soon. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. I am that Dr. Kirk Adams, speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today my special, wonderful guest is Lauren DeVillier. Lauren is the Chief Executive Officer of Exceptional Minds. Say hey, Lauren. Lauren DeVillier: Hey there. Hello. So happy to be here. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. Well, we'll be back to you momentarily. So for those of you who don't know me, just super briefly: I am Dr. Kirk Adams, immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, Helen Keller's organization. I had the honor of serving in those same leadership roles at the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle. I am a blind person. My retina is detached. When I was in kindergarten, I went to a wonderful school, the Oregon State School for the Blind, for first, second, and third grade. Thank you, Mrs. Summers, for teaching me how to read Braille. And thank you, Mr. Pearson, for teaching me how to use the long white cane. And off into public school after that. College, career in banking and finance, moved into the nonprofit sector. First nonprofit job was development officer for the Seattle Public Library Foundation, raising money for the statewide Talking Book and Braille Library. Later pursued and earned a master's degree in nonprofit leadership, and later on a PhD in Leadership and Change from Antioch. So I guess I go back to school every 15 years or so. And I met Lauren because a classmate of mine from Whitman College, who was also an econ major, named Vivian Ho, and I reconnected. Vivian lives in the Bay Area. She is a trustee of the University of Washington Board of Regents. And she reached out to me, said, 'I met this really interesting person named Lauren, and she's working on a fantastic project that involves young artists with disabilities, and I think you two should know one another.' So Lauren and I talked about the project she was working on with the Kennedy Center, and we touched base every once in a while. And then, fast forward — I don't know, six, nine months since we connected — and lo and behold, she is the executive director of a nonprofit called Exceptional Minds, doing some fabulous things. I know it started in Southern California, but it's really a national and growing scope. And rather than try to tell you about Exceptional Minds myself, I will let Lauren do that. We'd love to have you talk to us, Lauren, about some of your background, some of your experiences, what led you to be involved with Exceptional Minds, the history of the organization, and where are you now and where are you taking things? Lauren DeVillier: Sounds fantastic. I would love to. So thank you so much again for having me on your podcast. I'm so excited to be here with you today. And my career actually started in Seattle. I worked on Bill Nye the Science Guy at the very beginning of that show. And I— Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, here's where I jump in to say: when my children were little, we'd watch Bill Nye the Science Guy on channel nine, KCTS, our public broadcasting station. We remember one wonderful day where he showed an experiment where you could take a plastic garbage bag and put a hairdryer underneath it and fill it with hot air, and it would rise up to the ceiling. So we did that. And science — that's Bill Nye. Lauren DeVillier: Science. Science rules. Yes. I want to say that was the Lift episode. That was one of our very first episodes. I was the property manager, so I found all the props for the show, all the background for his experiments, all of those things. It was an incredible experience and really started my career in TV for kids. And so I was with the show for four of the five years. And then I would freelance at Microsoft when we would go on hiatus. I was working on a lot of projects for Microsoft that were kids-related. And then, after the show ended, I ended up joining Microsoft. I was at Microsoft for about five years, and then was recruited to Yahoo, which was the thing that brought me to LA. Because I did love Seattle, but as soon as I got down to the sunny weather of LA, I was like, 'I'm sold.' And so, joined Yahoo, was there for a couple of years. And then I worked on the lifestyles portfolio, and one of them was overseeing the kids group. And so I was out trying to do deals with some of the studios while I was in LA. And I ended up talking to Disney a lot. And they offered me a position to oversee digital strategy for the three kids networks. So it was Disney Channel, Disney XD, and Disney Junior. And that was a phenomenal experience for me, because I had worked on a TV show, then I went into technology, and then I went to Disney. And Disney really taught me about IP and branding, and really how to meld together digital with storytelling. And so, I was at Disney for quite some time, and then went off to Discovery, went back to Disney, had a startup, and then I was consulting. And my daughter went to a school, a local school here for 2e kids — and 2e is twice exceptional. So the child identifies as gifted, but they have a learning difference. And so somebody from this school reached out to me and said, 'There is this opportunity, and you sound like you'd be a perfect fit for it.' And they sent me the overview, the job description, for Exceptional Minds. And I read the job description, I was like, 'This is a perfect fit for me.' It is in the entertainment industry — kind of a little adjacent to it, not right in a studio. And I have a daughter who is neurodivergent. And I thought, well, not only can I do the business side of this job and the passion side of this job, but as a parent, I understand how you have to navigate with a child who is on the autism spectrum or is neurodivergent. And so I wrote a very passionate letter and said, 'This is why you need to hire me.' And I got hired. And so here I am at Exceptional Minds. And yesterday was actually my one-year anniversary. Dr. Kirk Adams: Congratulations. Lauren DeVillier: Thank you very much. And now I'll tell you a little bit about Exceptional Minds. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Tell us about how kids and young people and neurodiversity and entertainment all come together with Exceptional Minds. Lauren DeVillier: So Exceptional Minds was started in 2009, so we're in our 15th, almost 16th year. It was started in 2009 by a handful of parents who were in the entertainment industry, who had young adults who were on the autism spectrum that wanted to also get into the entertainment industry. And so they started this nonprofit. And in 2011, they opened their first academy. So we are a three-year vocational academy teaching young adults on the spectrum. So you have to be 18 and over and have a high school diploma or GED and a diagnosis of autism. We teach young adults animation, VFX. We're just launching a game arts program. So both of those programs are three-year programs. Our game arts program is a four-year program. And then we have two working studios. So we have an animation studio and a VFX studio, and those were launched in 2014, and in 2016 our VFX studio was launched. Dr. Kirk Adams: Just to make sure — I assume VFX is virtual effects. Lauren DeVillier: No, visual. Visual. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, yes. Lauren DeVillier: When you see — let's say there's a glare in Brad Pitt's glasses — we remove that glare. Dr. Kirk Adams: Or if there's somebody— Lauren DeVillier: —with a boom mic standing there, we remove the boom mic. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Lauren DeVillier: So yeah, we started doing work for most of the major studios, because the founders had a lot of connections. And so we started doing work for Marvel and Sony and Disney — pretty much all. We still, to this day, do work for all of those major studios. Dr. Kirk Adams: So Exceptional Minds has contracts with the studios, and the work is performed by your students or your graduates? Lauren DeVillier: That's right. And so when our students graduate, they can apply for jobs in one of our studios. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Lauren DeVillier: And we can either — if they're ready for it, we hire them into the studio. But we also support our students in finding internships and jobs outside of our own studio, because we only have so many seats. So we really try to support our students once they graduate, because ultimately our mission is about workforce development and putting our graduates into the workplace, so they can have independent lives doing what they love to do. Dr. Kirk Adams: So give us an idea of the scope currently. I know you're growing, but how many students are involved in the three programs? How many individuals with autism are working in the studios? How many people moving on to other employment? Lauren DeVillier: So our last graduating class — because we're still accepting applicants for this upcoming class — our last graduating class in 2026, they just graduated in June. We had a total in the school of 58 students. And everything we do — we have a campus, and everything we do on campus we also mirror online. So half of our students come from another part of the country. About 14, 15 last year were online doing the same curriculum. Community building is a huge part of what we do, so we have game nights and movie nights and crochet club. So part of everything that we offer, beyond the hard-skill training, is the soft-skill development — a lot of community-based events, a lot of career development building. So that's how many students we have in the academy. We have workshops throughout the year as well. So between the workshops and the school and our summer program, which is going on right now, we serve about 250 to 300 students a year with all of these different programs. Inside of our studios, because we flex with the jobs that are coming in, we will have anywhere between the two studios from 20 to 30 working artists on a part-time basis. It's an incredible and fulfilling role for me, because I sit between the academy and the studios. So I am constantly interacting with our artists and with our students. And it's just incredible — the work that they're doing, and their passion, and them as individuals. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, as a former CEO of several nonprofits, I have to ask you about the revenue model. So I'm hoping that some of the students are being funded by our vocational rehabilitation system through the Department of Education. So hopefully some of the students, especially those from other states, are coming with VR from that state. And then it sounds like you have earned income through the work of the studios. And I'm assuming there's philanthropic dollars that come in as well. Lauren DeVillier: Yes. So it's really a mix of three. So the academy — we have an annual tuition. And within California, we have the regional centers, and a lot of our students pay for their education through self-determination funds. Some parents pay out of pocket, and we also do scholarships. So that's the academy side. On the studio side — yes, we bid out projects like any other studio. And so we get revenue through the work that we do for Blumhouse and Disney and all the others. And then, because we have our overhead, and because we are trying to train our artists — I think we're the only studio in town that's trying to kick our artists out, so they go out and get other jobs — we offset some of the costs within the studio through our fundraising. So we are also fundraising between one-and-a-half to $2 million a year to offset that. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm curious about the original founding parents group. So you mentioned there were parents in the entertainment industry with children who were moving into that school-to-work transition age, who were interested in entertainment. That was the genesis — very, very similar to something that happened at Microsoft, when a number of Microsoft employees early on, with autistic children, really drove a focus on autism that has become something significant across the lake here at Microsoft, as far as employing people with autism and neurodivergence. So the original founding spark from those parents — I'm guessing those children are well into adulthood now. Are any of their original parents involved, or has it been a rolling succession of new families and new leaders of Exceptional Minds who are involved in the entertainment industry? I'm just really interested in how, from an organizational development, board development standpoint, things evolve from that beginning group who said, 'Hey, let's create this thing.' Lauren DeVillier: Yeah. So Judy Bennett, who is one of the first founders — she worked on a lot. She's an AD, an assistant director, and production manager. She worked on a lot of things like Kramer vs. Kramer. I mean, these are all very old movies — Broadcast News, Star Trek — she worked on all of that stuff. So she's still involved in ways. I talk to her, and really get a lot of inspiration from her. I met with another one of the original founders, Ron Burns, and his daughter Molly, who had a kid who was on the autism spectrum that was interested in the program. And so the original founders are still engaged on some level. Usually I reach out to them and tell them what's going on, and sometimes we bring them in for interviews and things like that, to provide inspiration to the newer leaders. And then we have two parents on the board of Exceptional Minds whose students went through this program, which is great, because they provide a different perspective to us. And in terms of how engaged parents are beyond the board — we have a very engaged parent group. They have their own social media group, and we definitely seek them out. We are actually actively looking for board members in the entertainment industry. And then, adjacent — we would love to add some board members who are adults on the autism spectrum, because we definitely want that perspective. So yes, that is of great interest to me. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. And then — you've been there a whole year now, so I'll ask you a couple things. So let's look at the challenges first. What has come into your world that perhaps you weren't quite expecting, or is more challenging than you thought it would be, or you had no idea this would be a challenge? And then, after we talk about that stuff, I'd love to hear about the happy surprises — what are some things that are more wonderful than you could ever have imagined? So let's talk about challenges. Lauren DeVillier: Yeah. So the challenge is — I believe that everyone is well-intentioned. That's where I start from, right? And as we head into our new fiscal year, one of the things that we're really focused on is employer training and workforce development. Because the biggest challenge — I have artists, and they're amazing, and they're great at what they do. And yes, there are organizations like Microsoft who really weave neurodiversity into their culture. Salesforce also has Neuroforce, and they really weave it in. A lot of organizations aren't quite there yet. And so where we are pivoting is really in that area of teaching and development of employers. So we just added somebody on our board who works at CBS Sports and has hired four of our graduates. And we go on little talking tours and talk about how, if you build a neuro-inclusive workplace, it's not as difficult as it sounds. And so it really is around development. We're already taking care of the development of our students and our artists, and now we're shifting a little bit to the development of the workplace. So I'm now speaking at different organizations and saying, 'Hey, yes, it's a different lift. It's not a heavy lift, it's a different lift.' And as we're looking at the research — I've looked at different research, like, I just looked at YouGov, where 30% of people under 30 identify as neurodivergent. I have looked at other stats where it's almost 50% of people identify as neurodivergent within the workforce. And so as we're seeing this acceptance and this growth, where we sit is: we want to be partners and thought leaders in this area of, it's not a nice-to-have. It just is. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, is it employer attitudes, misconceptions, fear of disability? Or is it more a lack of awareness, or some sort of combo plate? Lauren DeVillier: I think it's all those things. Right? I think it's all those things. In my speaking to different groups about it, it's just amazing the things that come up. When you're talking about building a neuro-inclusive workforce, whatever is good for a neurodivergent person also benefits — what, as I say in air quotes — a 'neurotypical' person. Like being clear. Just some of the simplest things that benefit an entire organization, not just people on the spectrum, right? Dr. Kirk Adams: Creating a good fit between the person and the workplace — a good employer should want to do that for everybody, right? Lauren DeVillier: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So some of the accommodations, again, are just — it's like low-hanging-fruit stuff. So it's kind of a combination of everything that you said. So that's a big focus for us this year. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then, on the flip side of the coin — what are some great things that have occurred or have manifested during the year you've been there that maybe you weren't quite imagining would happen? Lauren DeVillier: Well, so this is a personal one. I have a 21-year-old, and I have learned so much about her, about myself, about our relationship, about how we interact — and actually how I can be better — by just my everyday work here and my everyday interaction here, and just digging into neurodiversity and autism and understanding it on a different level. Because I only have one child, and I only know her and her perspective. It's really broadened my perspective overall of neurodiversity and autism, and it's really helped me understand everything about my relationship with her. So that's been a wonderful experience for me. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. So you've talked a little bit about some of the strategic focus areas for you as the Chief Executive Officer. We talked about adding some neurodivergent adults to the board. We talked about building out more contracts for the studio. You mentioned fundraising, which I know is always an ongoing imperative. So what's your vision for year two, year three? Lauren DeVillier: So my vision for the next couple of years — it's a couple of things, right? Anybody that is staying on top of, or reading anything about, what's happening in the entertainment industry knows that, specifically in the LA area, there are a lot of challenges here. There are a lot of people who are looking for work. There's a lot of consolidation, with mergers and acquisitions and things like that. And so, how do I continue to serve the mission in developing artists for the workforce? We are expanding the type of work that we're doing outside of just straight entertainment work. We're really leaning into what I like to call market-adjacent work. So, finding work for artists in marketing departments, finding work for our artists in that law office who needs content. We are a very content-driven culture, with short-form, short videos, other content. And so, how do we expand beyond sort of the traditional studio life and into other areas? We are training in the creator economy — how do you have your own business, how do you develop your YouTube channel, how do you build an Instagram, in terms of where you can actually be a creator making money. So we're leaning into some of those areas, in further development of our talent. And then, kind of leaning back into the workforce development piece, we are building out a career and student services center that is supporting our artists through upskilling. We continue to upskill our talent after they graduate. We help them, again, in those soft-skills training pieces — like, how do you interview, how do you write a resume, how do you interact with your peer group, how do you communicate with your manager, what do you disclose or don't disclose. So we are standing up this career and student services center for not only our students, but for our alumni and our recent graduates, so we can continue their education and continue to support them in finding work in the market. Dr. Kirk Adams: Awesome. So if someone listening right now is an autistic person, 18 or over, with a GED or high school diploma — or has such a person in their life — who is interested in the entertainment industry, or adjacent industries like design and content creation, how can they get in touch? Lauren DeVillier: Well, they can reach out to me, and they can go to our website, which is https://exceptional-minds.org. We have all of our programs up there. I would encourage anyone who's really passionate about art and drawing and animation and VFX and gaming — we have a lot of summer workshops happening right now. We're in the middle of one right now, and we have three more to come, so check those out. Or, if you're interested in our three-year or four-year program, that's also listed on the website. We also have a one-year program called Media Arts Foundation, so there's that. We would also gladly accept donations to support these programs, to support our scholarships, to support our career and student service center. And if you're in the entertainment industry — and if you're not — we are working with many, many different clients outside of the entertainment industry to develop content for marketing assets and other— Dr. Kirk Adams: Product design. Right — I know you mentioned your graduates had done some design work. I think you said a water bottle, last time we talked. Lauren DeVillier: Oh yeah, yeah. So, thank you for bringing that up. So we did a partnership with PATH Water, I think they're called, for Autism Awareness Month, which is in April. And one of our artists, Benny, did the design for that. Benny was an animation [student] and decided that — after they did this design — they wanted to get into product design. So thank you for bringing that up. I'm reaching out to more. There's one company in Seattle that sells coffee that — yes, I'm like, 'Have you heard of them? I would love to do something with them.' And so, yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, well — I'm not shy. Okay: Starbucks. We've got some people who are trained to help you with design and content, who are autistic and eager and ready to work. Lauren DeVillier: Thank you so much. Yeah. It's such a great — just the passion of these artists. Once you're interacting, like Benny working on this design — it's just such a phenomenal experience, for Benny, for us, for PATH. It was just a great experience all the way around. And we have supervisors that help kind of guide that process. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's awesome. So, from being the property manager for Bill Nye the Science Guy to being the Chief Executive Officer for Exceptional Minds — what a wonderful path you are on. So proud of what you're doing, and just so excited to follow along as you grow your programs and change the lives of more and more people. So, for those of you listening, go to https://exceptional-minds.org to get connected with Lauren and her team, and reach out to me at https://drkirkadams.com, or @KirkAdamsPhD on LinkedIn. Reach out to Lauren, reach out to me — let's connect, let's build this community. And thank you so much, Lauren, for being here today. Lauren DeVillier: Thank you so much for including me in this great podcast. I so appreciate it, and I'm so grateful for the relationship we have. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to meeting you in person very shortly. We'll break bread together in Southern California soon. And for everyone listening, we'll see you next time on another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Jerred Mace, Founder and CEO, OneCourt

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Jerred Mace, Founder and CEO, OneCourt https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-06-23-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-06-23-2026/] In this energized episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, his first-ever return guest, Kirk reunites with Jerred Mace [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerred-mace/], founder and CEO of Seattle assistive-tech startup OneCourt [https://onecourt.io/], fresh off attending a FIFA US–Australia match in Seattle where he used OneCourt's tactile broadcast at a live sold-out stadium for the first time. Kirk narrates the experience in vivid detail: feeling the ball travel across the pitch under his hands, sensing shots go wide, and syncing to the crowd's roar while seated beside a blind high-school student also using the device. Mace recaps OneCourt's origin story, inspired as a UW industrial-design junior by videos of blind fans following matches through a companion's tactile signing, and explains how the tablet-sized device translates official league tracking data into trackable vibrations on interchangeable silicone overlays, about a half-second behind live play. The conversation covers how the technology works (a shift from in-ball sensors toward optical, computer-vision tracking with millimeter accuracy), OneCourt's growing in-venue footprint (ten NBA teams last season, the Arizona Diamondbacks in MLB, plus soccer activations), and the new at-home preorder that lets fans stream NBA, NFL, and MLB games to their own OneCourt tablet. Mace looks ahead to OneCourt becoming a "need-to-have" accommodation at every venue, plus future use cases in gaming and blind-athlete training, and points listeners to onecourt.io/preorder. Kirk, now formally a OneCourt advisor, even pitches a strap so standing soccer fans can hold the device vertically. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. This is that Dr. Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I think this is my first return-guest podcast. So today we welcome again Jerred Mace, founder and CEO of OneCourt. Hey, Jerred. Jerred Mace: Hey, Dr. Kirk. Thanks again for having me back. Super excited to be here. Dr. Kirk Adams: Absolutely. And I am on fire about OneCourt. Because last week, on Wednesday, I got a text from Jerred that said, 'Hey, did you see the invitation to the World Cup match?' And I had not seen that, but I quickly searched my email, and there it was — an opportunity from FIFA to go see the US play Australia here in Seattle, and to experience OneCourt firsthand at a live sporting event. Now, I first met Jerred at an event at Microsoft — oh gosh, almost two years ago — called Seattle Disability Connect. And I had an opportunity to put my hands on OneCourt and experience tactilely a baseball game on the radio, the Mariners and Tampa. But I had not attended a live sporting event before. So I grabbed my wife, and I grabbed the Uber down to the Pioneer Square area of Seattle, and enjoyed walking through the very jovial, excited, enthusiastic crowd — quite a few Australian accents. And then we went to the guest services desk, where I encountered a blind friend named Jacob who works for both the sports stadiums here. And we checked out a OneCourt device. We were seated next to a blind high school student named Ethan. He was there with his mother, and Ethan and I sat shoulder to shoulder, both with our hands on the OneCourt devices. Of course, being several generations separated, I did have to ask Ethan for a little technical support — he showed me where the volume button was for the audio. But it was truly amazing to sit there and be so synced up with the energy of the crowd, in particular as my hands were on the device and I could feel the ball travel from one end of the pitch to the other. And as it neared the Australian goal, as the US was attempting to score — the increasing volume and excitement of the crowd as they cheered and yelled, and then the shot, and the collective groan as I could feel the ball go wide of the goal. In one particularly rousing scene, there was a shot on goal that went right over the net. The crowd moaned in despair, and I could feel the ball skip right over the goal and out of bounds. And then, of course, when the US scored our two goals, the excitement of that — the change in tone and tempo of the chanting of the crowd as the ball would change hands, as Australia might be driving toward a scoring opportunity, and then the ball would turn over and the US would be moving down the field the opposite way. And just to feel that ebb and flow under my hands while listening to the crowd and feeling the energy. And there was lots of energy in that sold-out, 66,925-capacity crowd at the Seattle Stadium. So I want to express my gratitude toward you, Jerred, and your team for giving me that opportunity. I call that a once-in-a-lifetime. And just really glad to have you back. I know the company has taken great strides since last time we talked. I put in my preorder for my device to use here at home. But for those who didn't listen to episode one of our conversation, if you could give a little recap on the origin story of OneCourt, the path you've traveled so far, where you're at now with OneCourt — where are you going? Jerred Mace: Absolutely. And thank you for that kind introduction, and also breakdown of your experience. I can't wait to talk more. I mean, this is the first time I'm hearing those notes from your experience last week. And it was an electric atmosphere, I think, all over Seattle, but none more impressive than in that venue. So I can't imagine how special that was for everybody. And to be engaging with it in a new way is all the more interesting and fun. So yeah, I definitely have all my questions for you, to hear more about that. But for listeners that haven't heard of OneCourt before, I'd love to just share and preview that. So OneCourt is a sports technology startup here in Seattle. We invented a tactile broadcast that allows fans who are blind or have low vision to experience and watch sports through their fingertips, as Dr. Kirk described in his experience. And what's powerful about this is that it works both in venue and at home. So no matter where you are, you can always access the game. And the origin story dates back a few years now. I was a junior at the University of Washington. I was studying industrial design, and I came across a video of a blind person at a soccer match, and he was sitting in the stands with a woman who was watching the game, and at the same time moving his hands across a game board to represent the action. So it was tactile signing. It was experiencing the game in a totally different format than the ones, I think, that are popularly described. And in doing some research, we kind of found, oh my gosh, these instances of accessibility are popping up around the world, where people are just helping other people experience the game. There was another similar video out of Brazil — same thing, but this one was at a cafe where fans were cheering, and two fans were sitting across from each other and helping watch the game through tactile signing. And I think the insight from that was really, how do we scale that experience to everyone using this emerging data and haptic technology? And that's what our company has been focused on since then. So we banded together as a group of students from the UW and formed this company called OneCourt. So we've been on a major journey, I would say, of development and community building. And now we're getting to this interesting part of scaling the work that we've built. So yeah, I would love to talk more about any and all of that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, let's talk about the actual device itself. It was so fascinating to me to spend that much time at it. You've definitely made changes, improvements since the last time I had my hands on OneCourt, which was well over a year ago. But it seemed lighter. Jerred Mace: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: I had never had my hands on the rubber overlay that depicts the pitch of the soccer field. But I did notice that the goal itself was very, very small, but then there was a larger representation of the space representing the goal. So I could tell where the shot went in. Good score. Jerred Mace: Yeah, exactly. We have been playing around with what we call multi-view concepts, where we're able to show different views of the game, not just a single plane or top-down view of the action. And to give a brief description of the device — it's about the size of a laptop. And to your point, it has actually gotten a lot lighter, which is good. It's also getting thinner, which I'm excited about. You can think of it like a thicker laptop that you place on your lap or on a tabletop in front of you. And on the surface, there's a silicone mat that features the tactile graphic of whatever court or field you might be interested in. So in the case of soccer, of course, it features the goal line and the enlarged goal and the center line and the penalty box — everything. You can imagine that for different sports as well. And then what you're feeling underneath actually are vibrations that correspond to the gameplay that's happening live. So we work with the teams and leagues who are collecting this data around where the players are, where the ball is, and we translate that data in real time into trackable vibrations. So you can literally feel the ball stream across the field. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Jerred Mace: About a half second after it's happening — which solves one of the biggest problems we've seen in this use case, which is that many people are just accustomed to reacting after the fact. Like, the crowd has reacted, and you're waiting to kind of hear what happened from the radio or a friend or family member. And being able to just immerse yourself in the action and interpret it for yourself is, I think, what this is all about, in essence. Dr. Kirk Adams: I recall when I experienced the baseball game — the radio broadcast — the baseball diamond was represented, but then also the strike zone. You're talking about the multi-modes. So there was a grid representing the strike zone, so when the pitch crossed the plate, I could tell where the ball entered the strike zone — whether it was high, inside, low and away, or right across the plate. So I got that piece. And then when the ball was struck, you could trace the flight of the ball across the diamond. And if there was a runner on base, there was a vibration. I'm pretty good at keeping track mentally, but sometimes I forget how many runners are on when I'm listening to a baseball game. But I was talking to someone today about this experience over lunch, very excitedly telling them about it, and they said, 'Is there a chip in the ball? How does OneCourt track the ball?' And you just mentioned it very briefly, but — don't overwhelm me with technology that's over my head — but if you could just describe a little bit how the information actually gets from a soccer ball being dribbled down the field to my hands. Jerred Mace: Yeah, it's a great question. And this technology has really advanced over the last five years — ten years, really. But it's a combination of things. It sometimes is a physical sensor that's in the chip, or it's embedded in the ball, or it's embedded in the jerseys. But we're actually seeing the leagues move away from this technology and more towards optical sensing. And it likely is going to always be a combination, because sometimes the cameras can't pick up everything, right? But what we're moving towards is this area where you could imagine 10 to 20 cameras around the field, all trained on the action. And they're basically running computer vision software, which is able to pick up those details of where exactly the ball is on the field, and when. And I mean exactly — I really mean it — because it's millimeters of accuracy, right? XYZ coordinates. You could think of it almost like a 3D mapping of the game that's unfolding. And it's happening so quickly that we're able to turn that experience around into something that fans can feel in the moment. So I'd say that's a lot of the magic, as we talked about, but that's really how it works. It's the underlying infrastructure, of course, that is not OneCourt's invention. We do not collect the data. We simply translate it into a new haptic language. Dr. Kirk Adams: Gotcha. And then — I know when we talked the first time, first podcast you joined me, we talked about some of the professional sporting franchises that made OneCourt available. And my experience at the soccer stadium was going to guest services, giving them some personal information and phone number, etc., and then being handed a tote bag with handles that had the OneCourt device and the headphones. So how many stadiums now can a blind person go and enjoy OneCourt? Jerred Mace: Yeah, it's a great question. It does vary somewhat by league and tournament, but we've seen a lot of our scale actually within the NBA. So last season we had ten NBA teams, where at every one of those venues you could check out OneCourt for free at any of the home games. So a ton of availability and opportunity for fans to just give this technology a try, because we also understand it's a new and somewhat abstract experience that you sort of need to get your hands on to understand what it's like. So that's really powerful, and one of the valuable things of having scale across these different leagues. And yeah, we're focused on broadening that impact. Currently, one MLB team, in the Arizona Diamondbacks — they're an active club right now. We're doing some activations for the soccer tournament that's ongoing. And then, of course, as we head into the fall, we're hoping to have many more NBA, NFL clubs, and so forth. So really spreading our wings across different leagues, different sports. And we're always hearing those requests from fans as to which sport people are looking forward to next. So we get those requests quite often. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. Well, I grew up with sports. My dad was a high school basketball coach. When I was very young, he coached three sports — basketball, and assistant football and assistant baseball coach. So lots and lots of sports in my life. And my wife also enjoys sports. So every morning when I get up, one of the things I do is — I call it the sports hunt. So I use my accessible voiced remote control, and I look at what sporting events are going to be on the streaming service I receive, and I record particular games. And then in the evening, we usually have a game of some kind on. Jerred Mace: I love that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Watched an Argentina soccer match the other day; the Seattle Storm game we had on for a little bit last night while we got dinner ready. I listen to at least parts of most Mariners games, and have for many, many years. So I love going to live sports, but I've probably experienced 500 broadcast sporting events at home for every one that I go to in person. So I know you have a home edition, you have something coming up. I know I signed up for the pre-order to be able to have OneCourt to enhance the experience of sporting events in the home. So we'd love to hear about that. Jerred Mace: Yeah. And your insight is exactly the insight that led us to offer this technology at home. And basically it was — we just kept hearing it from fans. People would go to a venue, have an amazing time, love the OneCourt experience, but then realize, well, I only come to the stadium a few times a year, or, if I'm really lucky, I'm a season-ticket holder. But to your point, most sports are watched at home, and being able to access sports no matter where you are is ultimately our mission. So we launched a pre-order earlier this spring, and it's still open. We have limited quantities, of course, so people should definitely act on that. But basically, as you said, people can experience this in their homes. They can stream all their favorite sports, whether it's NFL, NBA, or MLB games, all year round, and they can stream it directly to their own OneCourt tablet. So you could think of it a little bit differently than the in-stadium experience. That stadium experience is standalone. In this case, you're using your OneCourt tablet and your phone to basically look up games, select games, and watch games through the OneCourt app, and it's streaming via Bluetooth to your tablet. So you're able to — I could imagine your sports roundup experience adapting to that well, right? Like, you've got a game coming up, or you're excited about a game that's on this evening, and in the same way that you'd select it on your radio or your TV, you just do that on the OneCourt app and you're underway. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Can't wait — looking forward to it. As the Seahawks go to repeat their Super Bowl run, that will be very enjoyable. Jerred Mace: I know. I think we're all hoping for that, at least in this area of the country. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's right. So I know that you have investors in the company. I don't want to contravene any Securities and Exchange Commission rules, but are there still opportunities, if people want to invest at this stage in OneCourt? Jerred Mace: Well, I guess that is tough to — yeah, obviously we can't talk about any of that on this channel. But we're always happy to have strategic conversations with folks if they see a particular way to support or help out, regardless of, obviously, any private accredited-investor engagement. But yeah, I think— Dr. Kirk Adams: I just want to — just in very general terms — there still could be opportunities if people want to talk to you about that. Jerred Mace: You know, we're an early-stage startup, and we're always looking for support. And a lot of times that isn't investment. So I think — folks, people investing their time, their insight — there's definitely many ways to get involved. And I just recommend going on our website, submitting an interest form, just say why you want to get in touch, and we'll definitely field those. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I would guess, if you are a blind or visually impaired person who loves to go to live sporting events and your local team does not have OneCourt, I bet connecting OneCourt with the public relations, guest services folks at your local sports stadium would be a nice thing to do. Jerred Mace: Absolutely. We've seen it work. Fans have a lot of sway within these organizations. I mean, it's what these organizations exist to serve. And we've seen very passionate fans stand up and say, 'Hey, here's an accommodation that's worth investing in,' and that's led to really direct engagement. And yeah, of course we want to see more and more scale and buy-in. So it's exciting. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, yeah, I am pleased to be formally engaged as an advisor to OneCourt. It's been a great, satisfying journey so far. Where do you see things — say, fast-forward a couple seasons — where do you see things? Jerred Mace: Well, there's a couple things. The first is that I think we're starting to cross this line of nice-to-have to need-to-have, and really setting the expectation that this accommodation exists for fans and is available to fans. I mean, it used to be, even a year or two ago, that to try OneCourt would be the privilege of a select few, and a select few cities, right? And I think we're getting over this hump where we're seeing enough adoption — where, in many more cities, many more fans have the opportunity to try the technology. And I think in the years to come, we'll only see that trend continue. And our hope is that at every venue you walk into, you can ask for OneCourt and expect that real-time solution. So that's what I'm excited for on the in-venue side. Of course, we see a lot of opportunities to impact fans outside of the stadium. We've talked about the at-home pre-order. And I think in a couple of years, there will be a proliferation of content on our app. So, more sports, more engagement — whether that's across new leagues, deeper within leagues — there's just going to be so many opportunities to watch sports on OneCourt. But I think, in the coming years, what I'm interested to see as well is the new use cases that come up. So gaming is maybe the one I'm most excited about, where people will be able to not just watch a game, but think about playing a sports video game, or a different type — any type of video game. Those kinds of experiences — how can they be made more accessible? And it's something we're working on. It's not going to be the version-one launch, but I think soon after, we'll be able to have and create some of those experiences — along with, what's it like to use OneCourt as a training tool, as a blind athlete? That's another use case we're really excited about. So there's tens of things we want to do, but obviously we need to stay focused and deliver our core value before we diversify. Dr. Kirk Adams: Very good. I have one technological innovation to suggest, and that is some sort of strap, so you could hold it vertically in front of you. Because those soccer fans — they stand up during the match. Jerred Mace: Yeah, it's a great point. Dr. Kirk Adams: Many, many people around me were standing. I was seated with the OneCourt device on my lap, which was great. But yeah, I can imagine myself standing with it vertically, hanging down in front of me, with my hands on it. There were a lot of people begging people to sit down, but they weren't being listened to. So there was a lot of standing. Jerred Mace: It kind of forces that. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: But again, back around to what we talked about at the top of the conversation — it was just a tremendous experience. Like I said, I've been to many, many live sporting events. To add that tactile element, where I was so much more tightly synced up with what was happening on the pitch, and could really connect the tactile to the auditory sounds of the crowd and the ebb and flow of the energy — it was really quite liberating and super fun, and looking forward to next time. Jerred Mace: And I'd love to hear that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And for now, again — tell people how they can get in touch, how they can get a pre-order, how they can raise their hand to get involved. Jerred Mace: Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing right now. The biggest opportunity is our pre-order. So if you go to onecourt.io/preorder, you know, get a device for your home use — we'll be shipping by the end of the year. And there's three really strong bundles, all of which are heavily discounted. So I recommend getting in while it's at its cheapest. So yeah, that's my big recommendation. Those won't be around for long. And we're just excited to connect, obviously, with our sort of founding fans through this pre-order, and learn from them, work with them over the next year or so, and deliver as many amazing and illuminating experiences as we can. So that's our goal. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. Well, thanks for joining me again. I just had to strike while the iron was hot, while the memories of being there at the World Cup US–Australia match with OneCourt were still fresh in my mind. So thank you for hopping on the podcast. And for those of you who want to get in touch with me — my website, drkirkadams.com, has a contact form and an email newsletter sign-up list. And I'm on LinkedIn every day, Kirk Adams, PhD. So reach out to Jerred and the OneCourt team, reach out to me, and we'll talk to you next time on Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Thanks, Jerred. Jerred Mace: Thank you, Dr. Kirk. Till next time. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Robert Annis, Co-Founder, NEURO

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Robert Annis, Co-Founder, NEURO https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-06-16-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-06-16-2026/] In this candid episode of Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams welcomes Robert Annis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robannis/], a London-based coach and organizational psychologist, and founder of NEURO [neurocharity.org], an inclusive charity built to make neuroinclusion a competitive advantage rather than a matter of ethics alone. Annis speaks openly about his own "late diagnosis" at 45 (he's now 47) as profoundly autistic, with co-occurring ADHD, prosopagnosia (face blindness), aphantasia, alexithymia, an absence of interoception, and severely deficient autobiographical memory, a lifetime of "masking" that finally had names. He explains why he founded NEURO after growing frustrated with charities focused on awareness alone: he wanted real social change, so he deliberately built NEURO to look and operate like a business consultancy, meeting leaders in the language of innovation, adaptability, and talent rather than moral obligation. It's a thesis Dr. Adams shares in his forthcoming book, The Disability Dividend: Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, that the resilience and cognitive diversity forged by overcoming barriers are exactly what organizations need to thrive. The conversation then turns to how NEURO actually drives change: the NEURO Standard, an accreditation spanning five organizational pillars and three tiers that lets employers and universities prove they are continuously investing in inclusion, and, in turn, attract the roughly one in six people who are neurodivergent, plus everyone who loves them. Annis shares early wins, a Great Britain Olympic rugby player who rebuilt her youth-coaching approach for neurodivergent kids, and final-year students in London and Manchester who used the NEURO Standard to audit their own universities as their capstone project, alongside fast traction for a charity registered only about two months earlier: three university partners (two UK, one Australian), local-council ties reaching some 26 high schools, a charity-of-the-year award, volunteers across three continents, and a first major client in a large energy provider. He closes with a borderless five-year vision, licensing the model to "commercial delivery partners" worldwide, growing a free NEURO Library of practical resources, and recruiting volunteers in a way that deliberately advances each volunteer's own career. TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: Welcome to Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington — one of the sites for the World Cup. We had Egypt and Belgium yesterday, down the street from me, and on Friday it's the US and Australia, so football has taken over our city. And, coincidentally, I'm speaking today with someone from the United Kingdom: Robert Annis, who's based in London. Robert is the founder of NEURO, an inclusive charity seeking to make inclusion a competitive benefit to society — which aligns very closely with the work I do. Good morning to me, and good afternoon to you, Robert. Robert Annis: Thank you, Kirk — it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm glad you're here. I met Robert fairly recently through my good friend LinkedIn. As I said, Robert is the founder of NEURO, really focusing on working with organizations — companies, NGOs, governmental agencies — to help them understand that being inclusive of people with neurodiversity is a competitive advantage. I have a forthcoming business book that should be out soon; it's going into formatting right now, and it's called The Disability Dividend: Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion. So Robert and I have very similar views on the impacts of being truly inclusive of people with impairments — whether sight, hearing, neurological, or physical — and I'm really pleased to have Robert here today. We'll turn the microphone over to you; I'd love to hear the story. What's the journey that's brought you to where you are today with NEURO, and where are you going to take things? Robert Annis: Well, thank you, Kirk — that's a lovely introduction; I really appreciate it. It's really nice to be here. Getting to do something like a podcast is always a real pleasure, and it's always fascinating — you never know who's going to reach out afterwards and where it might lead, so I'm excited to see where this takes us. I think it's a really interesting topic you mentioned, around your book, my experience, and what we're doing with NEURO. The concept of being disabled is often seen as a negative, and I would never be the one to say it's a superpower — that's for sure. But there is an interesting point of view to be had: if someone can overcome the difficulties that society, and their own abilities, may put in front of them, then they develop a level of resilience and ability that can be very useful in organizations. It can create people who have exactly the sorts of skills organizations really need. However, we tend to have a bit of a lens over our view of people, so, quite traditionally, leaders will not look for people who are different — they look for people who are the same. Dr. Kirk Adams: Can we dig into the comment about the skills that employers need? Because that's certainly a conversation I— Robert Annis: I thought it might. Dr. Kirk Adams: I have a lot — and rather than lead with what I say about it, I'd love to hear what you say. You're talking to organizations about those skills. Robert Annis: I always try to think of it as a real-world example for them. A good one would be Covid, or artificial intelligence — massive, changing things that occur. Organizations, whether a school, a business, or an NGO, need to learn to survive through that, adapt, and ideally thrive. When you're going through those times, organizations need to be adaptable and flexible, and to do that, they need to be able to innovate and problem-solve. That is really fed by having multiple different mindsets and experiences — which can come from people of different age groups, different races, or different backgrounds of social mobility, but also different abilities, such as neurodivergence. So what we're helping organizations see is not to fear difference but to actually value it — to see that it brings things into your organization that can make you more successful. Critically, this means we're not going to organizations and leading with an ethical or moral argument; we're leading with a competitive one: that these people, like anybody, may have certain areas where they need help, but they also bring something rather special to the table, and that could be a huge differentiator for the organization. Dr. Kirk Adams: And what brought you to this work — your focus on neuro-difference? Robert Annis: Unsurprisingly, I was diagnosed as very neurodivergent indeed. I'm autistic — somewhere close to the edge of how autistic you can be. They were quite shocked when they did the tests; I think they said they hadn't seen a number that high, which I'm not sure is a compliment or not, but nonetheless. Dr. Kirk Adams: What age were you? Robert Annis: Yeah, I mean— Dr. Kirk Adams: How old were you? Robert Annis: It was about two years ago, so I'd have been 45. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, so recently. Robert Annis: Oh, yeah — very recently. 'Late diagnosis' is the correct term here, and that takes you on a certain journey. A lot of people who have differences, particularly in the brain — mainly because it's so complex that if there are differences, they have large-scale impacts — have comorbidity, meaning they have other things going on. So I have autism and ADHD, as I said, but also prosopagnosia, which is face blindness, so I don't remember faces or recognize people most of the time. I have aphantasia, so I don't have a mind's eye — I can't picture things, and I don't really dream. I have alexithymia, which means I struggle to comprehend emotions, both in myself and in others. I lack interoception, which is the ability to understand what's happening in your body, so I don't get hungry — I get ravenous: I'm fine, I'm fine, and then all of a sudden I'm eating the table, so that's entertaining. And I also have severely deficient autobiographical memory, or SDAM, which means I don't remember the past much. So all of these things come together, and they do make life quite tricky. Dr. Kirk Adams: Being diagnosed — given names for these things — when you're 45: does that explain a lot of your life experience before then? Robert Annis: Of course it does. I think the most fascinating thing about that, Kirk, is this: if you're unable to walk and so you need a wheelchair, it's very apparent — you're not surprised by it. But when it's something in your head, you're not aware of it, because as humans, growing up from children into adulthood, we're always just making sure we fit in and trying to understand the world around us and how we operate within it. So I knew I struggled with my memory and couldn't remember people, but that's not the kind of thing you vocalize and tell people, so I just put it to one side and tried to carry on. I became very good at what we call masking — using skills to effectively hide where I'm struggling. I would always let other people lead the conversation, and I'd try to avoid any topics about previous interactions. And I didn't always know I was doing it, to be honest with you. So the diagnosis was very helpful, but at the same time a bit of a shock, because even after 45 years I hadn't fully got my head around just how different I was. Dr. Kirk Adams: But did you know that other people had capabilities you did not — remembering faces being the first example that pops into my mind? That, hey, other people can recognize people by face, but you couldn't? Robert Annis: Yeah, I was aware of it — I just didn't put a lot of focus on it, which is an ironic sentence to say, isn't it? Dr. Kirk Adams: It's just such a different experience from me. My retinas detached when I was five; I became totally blind within a few days, and it was just, 'This is a blind kid. He needs to learn Braille. He needs to learn how to travel safely with a white cane. He needs to learn how to type on a typewriter so he can go to school — a public school.' But anyway, I digress. I'm asking these questions because — for 45 years you were living with these neurodiverse characteristics, and then two years ago being diagnosed and given names for these things. Where were you at that point? Were you mid-career? Were you involved in a particular field? I'm just curious about your life trajectory up until then. Robert Annis: It had been mixed. I think it's safe to say employment had never worked out for me. I now feel like I know why; I didn't really know then — I'd just found life very difficult, for the reasons I explained. Having relationships and friends has been very tricky, if possible at all, and having employment has been hard. So most of my career I've been self-employed, because that was really the only option open to me. I'd gone through several roles, from project and programme management in business, through to coaching, and then finally to organisational psychology. That was about the time I found all this out. So it all came together, and I started thinking: how do I take that focus in my career — coaching, organisational design, leadership coaching — and combine it with this newfound understanding of my brain and its neurodivergence? And that directly led to the wish to make some pretty significant changes, obviously within myself, but also within wider society. Dr. Kirk Adams: And you studied organizational psychology or development academically as well, correct? Robert Annis: Yes — I got a master's in organizational psychology. Dr. Kirk Adams: So what was the genesis, or the catalyst, for creating NEURO? Robert Annis: It was quite simple, really. I'd started volunteering with another charity in the space, focused on neurodiversity support, and I was over the moon to be involved and threw myself wholeheartedly into it. But I ended up very disappointed, because the focus was mildly on raising awareness and more on a 'join us, get a newsletter, and we'll give you a badge on your website' kind of thing, rather than any actual social change or changing things for individuals who may be struggling. So it wasn't quite the positive light I'd been hoping for — and no doubt that's my naivete to some degree, assuming that because it's a charity, it's doing great things. But most of the charities I talked to or looked at are really focused on awareness-raising. There's nothing wrong with that — of course it's good, and it needs to be done — but awareness-raising doesn't help any of the people who are struggling, and it doesn't do much to change the societal situation. So NEURO was created for exactly that reason. There was a big gap where people weren't trying to change society so much as just raise awareness — which, again, is fine, but not what we wanted to do. So NEURO's focus is simple: it's to change the world. It's a social-change model. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Robert Annis: Exactly. Look, I'm 47 — I'm not a spring chicken. There's no point in me taking my time and going slowly with this. There are times to lean into your difference, and this is one of them: my autism means I can work a 20-hour day, no problem at all. I can just focus and work seven days a week and not really notice it. So in the last year we've built NEURO, and because we don't want to just focus on awareness, it's designed to look like a business consultancy — so that when we go in and talk to organisations, whoever they may be, we look like a serious group that can actually come in, help, and make a difference. We've built everything, from accreditation to training to actual tools that help people learn where the friction is in the workplace, where individuals are struggling, so they can actually receive help. And I don't mean counseling — I mean actually finding the areas where they're struggling so they can grow and do better things with their careers. So what we've built, and are continuing to grow, is significant, and we're very proud of it. We finally went fully live about two months ago, when the charity was actually registered, but we started about a year ago on the journey of building everything. We're at the point now where we've got three university partners — two in the UK, one in Australia. We're partnered with several local councils, one of which reaches about 26 high schools. We've received a charity-of-the-year award. Things are starting to come together nicely. We've got volunteers on three continents. So it's still very early days, obviously — we're a startup — but we are starting to make a difference. Dr. Kirk Adams: We'd say nonprofit here — I guess NGO or charity is your term. So, as a fledgling registered charity in the UK, what are your strategic imperatives, say, for the next 12 months? What do you really need to accomplish to take things toward your vision? Robert Annis: Absolutely — it's a very clear strategic vision. With my background in organizational psychology and coaching organizations, specifically leaders in strategy, I'd be really embarrassed if I hadn't thought this one through. The focus of the strategy is very clear: we've built an accreditation designed to help organizations once they've invested and made internal changes to be more inclusive. Once they've done that, the accreditation they can then achieve allows them to signal to the wider world that they truly are being inclusive and supporting individuals in that way. The whole point is to shift the conversation around what inclusion means. If an organization invests, makes changes, makes the effort, then it's showing that it really does care — and that's the kind of thing people external to the organization would want to know about. If someone is looking for work and they're an absolute genius at analysis but struggle with some social situations, they could be amazing in some companies — but that company needs to attract that person. Robert Annis: Currently, that's not really done in any way. Our accreditation makes very clear which organizations are going down that path, so they'll be able to attract the best talent, and the customers and suppliers they want — because neurodivergence, as an example, impacts around 1 in 6 people. That means if you're talking to a customer, a supplier, or somebody you want to hire, you can pretty much guarantee that someone in their family, or someone very close to them whom they care about, is neurodivergent. And when an organization can actually show that it's invested and made changes, you're going to pull on some pretty important heartstrings with a lot of people. So, to put it in one sentence, Kirk: we want to make inclusion a competitive advantage — not something done for ethical and moral reasons, because that's not a good sell to a CEO, but because it will make you more successful. That should be a good pitch. And, obviously, the benefit is that we get the ethical and moral improvements along for the ride. Dr. Kirk Adams: What tends to motivate or engage the people you're talking to? You're sitting across the desk from a CEO or executive director, having this conversation — are there certain light-bulb moments? Robert Annis: Oh, gosh. Dr. Kirk Adams: —certain things that tend to animate the people you're talking to? Robert Annis: Yes, absolutely. And I realize I didn't fully answer your last question, so I'll finish that quickly: the strategy we're aiming for with NEURO is that that level of inclusion, and our accreditation, becomes recognized and sought after as organizations seek to get the very best talent. That's what the accreditation is designed to do, and that's the strategy we want to get to. As for when I'm talking to leaders, and the things that really help them recognize the value of this and why they want to do it — I think it's mostly because we've made the effort to look like a business consultancy and to speak in their language: to come in and say, this is about making you more competitive, helping you be more successful, being a more adaptable, more flexible organization that can lead in innovation and problem-solving because you value cognitive diversity. That really starts to resonate, because leaders have no problem with inclusion. What they have a problem with is the idea that a company that must make a profit and please shareholders should focus primarily on ethical and moral grounds. Those are important, but it's a lot easier for a leader to get behind it when they can say, 'This will actually help us make money.' There's no reason we need to exclude the concept of profit from doing good things — we just need to make sure we explain them in the right way. Dr. Kirk Adams: I know you're a fledgling organization, but you mentioned working with some university partners. Can you give us a success story? Robert Annis: Yeah, absolutely — I'll give you a couple. We're obviously not huge yet, but one of my favorites, because it was sort of the first one we did: there's a lady, a rugby player here in the UK. She's played for Great Britain in the Olympics — an extremely good rugby player — and she still plays for Great Britain; she's actually in the US at the moment, I think playing for Great Britain. As a side job, she also coaches young girls in rugby, sort of six- to fifteen- or sixteen-year-olds, and she recognized that some of the girls she was seeing, and their parents, were neurodivergent. So we sat down and helped her build out lesson plans and how to actually run coaching sessions with neurodivergent kids, and it completely revolutionized her approach. That was just a truly heartwarming and wonderful thing to get to do. Allied to that, the universities we're working with in London and Manchester, here in England — I hope they won't mind me saying this — their final-year degree students' end-of-year project was a little basic, shall we say. Robert Annis: I was at the university mentoring as an entrepreneur, and I said, 'Well, we can help with this. We can use our NEURO accreditation, which is effectively a way to assess an organisation, and the students can use it to assess the university — they can interview faculty, survey students, review the policies for how the organisation does its performance management, hiring practices, and so on.' So the students got to do that, and then finished with a report that said, 'Hey, University, this is what I found; these are the areas you can improve in.' So those students now get to leave university, having graduated, and go to a job interview, and when they get asked, 'What can you bring to the table?' they can say, 'Well, I changed my university — so just think what I could do here.' That just puts a smile on your face, because you think, we're doing all the good things here. So those are two really good stories. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's systems change right there. So — accreditation. Is that something NEURO has created? Robert Annis: Yes, exactly. Dr. Kirk Adams: Tell us a little about what it is and who has access to it — who can use it. Robert Annis: Of course. I should say all of this is on the website — we've intentionally made everything open to everyone; everyone can access it. We wanted— Dr. Kirk Adams: Why don't you tell us the web address now, and then I'll ask again later? Robert Annis: Okay, yes — it's https://neurocharity.org. If you go on there and look for the NEURO Standard, that's the accreditation. Dr. Kirk Adams: And tell us a little about the accreditation. Robert Annis: It's intended to assess an organisation across five pillars, covering the entire organisation — from leadership to governance to policies and procedures to HR — and to help that organisation understand where it's being inclusive and should be happy, but also where there are areas it needs to improve, so you can see the actual areas where that investment can take place. With that, the organisation can make changes: there could be training they need to do, or policies and procedures they need to update — lots of things. But once they do those things, that evidence of change is what they submit to NEURO, and that's the evidence that earns the accreditation. So it's not about 'how inclusive are you?' It's about proving that you're continuously investing, that you're changing — because we want to see organisations going on that journey. And within the qualification there are three tiers, so organizations can join, and then as they advance and become more inclusive, they can move up and really show the levels of change they're making. That's hugely valuable if you're looking to gain talent, or to get students to look at your organization. The example I usually think of is a young lady who has ADHD and is looking to go to university. As she's looking at universities, there's not much information about how supportive they'll be. Robert Annis: She's been supported at school, at her high school, to some degree, but now she's looking at university, and she's quite nervous about what's out there and how much support there'll be. The reality is, for a lot of people in that situation — who have some sort of disability, or are struggling with something — the focus becomes less about 'what is the job?' or 'what is the degree?' and more about 'will I be able to survive it? Is this something I can do?' So if that young lady is looking at three universities, it becomes a lot less about 'which degree shall I do?' and more about 'which university is going to support me?' At that moment, the NEURO accreditation — the Standard — becomes absolutely crucial, because that young lady will look at those three universities, see the one with the accreditation, and very likely think, 'That's where I'm most likely to succeed.' So the dream here, the win here, is that we take inclusion and shift it from being a thing we have to ask for, beg for, and try to find money for in organisations, to something that attracts the best talent — so it becomes a competitive advantage for organizations. And that, we think and hope and believe, is a game changer. Dr. Kirk Adams: Fabulous. So let's fast-forward — say, five years from now. What does NEURO look like? What is NEURO doing? What kind of impacts and outcomes have you had? Robert Annis: Absolutely. The vision is very clear to me, and it's been designed that way from the very beginning. NEURO has no borders — there's no concept of country or anything like that; this is about humans. So we need to be able to spread this around the world, and we know we can't do that alone. When I say 'we,' that's my wife and I — we're both neurodivergent, and we created the organization — but we want to spread it around the world, and we can't do that alone. So, while spreading it around the world, we also want to help other people who are perhaps like me, for whom employment isn't an option, so they become self-employed as a coach, a consultant, a trainer, or something like that. We want to help them as well, and it's kind of a win-win for both. The concept is: we've built NEURO, we've got the accreditation, and we've built so much training — I've built about 35 training courses now, I think, with a plan for about another 50 — plus all the marketing, all the proposal templates, everything. So we want to license what we've built, so that organizations and individuals can go out around the world, make money, and have an income — anyone who wants to should be able to earn an income and actually go out there and help change the world. So my hope is that, five years from now, these 'commercial delivery partners,' as we call them — the people we're licensing NEURO to — will be all over the world, and organizations everywhere will be able to find a local commercial delivery partner to help them with their NEURO accreditation. That way we can build this into the working culture in all societies and languages. That's very much the hope, and where I see it five years from now. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, hear, hear — cheers to that. So, for those of you listening who want to get in touch, you've already mentioned the website, https://neurocharity.org. As we end our time — which flew by — what would you like people to know? Robert Annis: Thank you, Kirk — you're not wrong, it has flown by. I apologize for sort of talking your ear off. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, that's what we're here for. Robert Annis: Yes — obviously the website, https://neurocharity.org. We're on all the social media at this point, I think, but LinkedIn is definitely the primary one. There are multiple ways to engage. If you're an individual — let's say you're a parent with a neurodivergent child, or a manager with neurodivergent employees — on our website we have a resource called the NEURO Library, and it's an ever-growing resource with things you can't find anywhere else: the answers to questions people don't seem to be sharing, like 'What is neurodivergence? How do I help my child? How do I work with people in that situation?' There are practical guides, downloadable tools and templates for managers, lots of things — and it's all free, obviously. So please go and look at the NEURO Library; it's growing, and our volunteers are building it up. Which leads me, very succinctly, to volunteers: we've got volunteers now in North America, Asia, and Europe, which is very exciting, but we definitely need a lot more. It's still very early days, so please, if you'd like to be involved, reach out. We're very keen to help people come on board in a way that actually helps their career. For example, we've got one young man in — well, not Pennsylvania — I think it's Colorado, in the US, whose focus is graphic art and videos, and his dream is to work in that space. So he's building things for us, but I've told him explicitly: only build things for us that you can put in your portfolio and that will help your career. That's very much how we want to do volunteering — obviously we need help, we need volunteers, but we want it to also help you on your journey, as it should be. And then there's the commercial delivery partner program, which, as I said, is a licensing of what we've built, so that people who— Dr. Kirk Adams: Can you repeat the name of the program? Robert Annis: Sure — the commercial delivery partners. Dr. Kirk Adams: Commercial delivery partners. Okay. Robert Annis: Exactly. And that works whether you're brand new and just starting out — we've built all the training, we've built everything, and we'll train you up — or if you've already got all your own stuff that you've built yourself and you're very proud of it, no problem at all: you can still come and work with us. You've got our training if you want to use it, and if you don't, that's fine — use your own. But you can use the brand and the marketing to go out there and get clients. At the end of the day, we want to help these individuals and small companies go out there and be successful. So if you're interested in that, it's all on the website, including pricing — but reach out with questions. And then, finally, if you're interested in getting certified yourself — if you want your organization to gain the accreditation and be one of those first ones out there to really get on that path — do reach out via the website or to me on LinkedIn. I'm very proud that just last week we signed our first big client; it's a big energy provider, and they're going the whole hog — they want to do everything. It's thrilling. It's really validation, you know. Nothing— Dr. Kirk Adams: —succeeds like success, Robert. Robert Annis: Well, I certainly hope so. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, it's been a pleasure. I'm looking forward to talking to you a little down the road to see where NEURO has gone, so we'll schedule another time to talk later in the year or early next year. Really a pleasure. Please go to https://neurocharity.org. If you'd like to get in touch with me, my website is https://DrKirkAdams.com — I have a newsletter sign-up and a contact form there — and I'm also on LinkedIn every day; it's @KirkAdamsPhD. Please reach out to Robert, reach out to me, and we'll talk to you next time on Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. Thanks, Robert. Robert Annis: Thank you. Announcer: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. 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