'The Power of No' with Dr Sunita Sah

NEW - The Mindset Economy Podcast

Available NOW wherever you get your podcasts, The Mindset Economy is the podcast from the team that brought you The Evolving Leader. Presented by co-hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender, this new podcast addresses How will we work, live, and belong in a more uncertain world, where machines can think? Our hypothesis is that as quantitative, routine, low-cognitive work is automated, human advantage will come from qualitative work, creativity, judgement, and social intelligence. The Mindset Economy podcast will explore the changes taking place, how leaders will respond to creation of a new economy being ushered in by the mass adoption of AI, and how we can accelerate human advantage.  The Mindset Economy will feature a broad diversity of voices: from leaders at the edge of this transformation to performance scientists and AI thinkers and social philosophers.  Subscribe NOW.  Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-economy/id1857925112  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3pFMH4kJBslfg5yg50PIDV?si=6e41e1326f2d42ab  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdDPnyDmEZvkU5PSvv7r5YQ Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1309339/fan_mail/new]

'Leading in the Age of AI’ with Andy MacMillan

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, Jean and Scott sit down with Andy MacMillan, CEO of Alteryx, to explore how generative AI is reshaping work, leadership and organisational design. Andy shares a uniquely practical and grounded view of where companies really are with AI adoption, caught in a chaotic but exciting period where the opportunity is clear, but the scaffolding is not yet in place. He explains why AI transformation cannot be delegated to IT, how leaders should approach reimagining business processes, and why Theory of Constraints is one of the most powerful lenses for navigating the next wave of change. Andy also opens up about the leadership challenges ahead: maintaining psychological safety in the midst of rapid technological shift, helping teams build confidence with new tools, and avoiding both complacency and panic. He shares candid lessons from his own leadership journey, the importance of transparency when organisations face change, and why the most impactful AI practices often happen at the “strategic altitude” rather than in day-to-day automation.  Further reading re. Andy MacMillan and Alteryx: ·      How AI adoption is driving a new data era at Alteryx — An interview with Andy MacMillan discussing his role as CEO (appointed December 2024), Alteryx’s repositioning as an “AI Data Clearinghouse”, and his thoughts on shifting from siloed business-data systems to unified analytics. ·      Alteryx Looks To Become An AI Data Powerhouse With New Unified Platform (CRN, May 2025) — MacMillan discusses the launch of the “Alteryx One” platform, a strategic move to unify analytics, data-prep and AI workflows under one roof. ·      With agentic AI we are being sold on the idea of running before we can walk or crawl, says Alteryx’s Andy MacMillan (Tech Monitor, May 2025) — A leadership-focused piece where MacMillan emphasises the importance of starting with manageable AI projects, surfacing his mindset around experimentation, governance and human-machine synergy. Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender: Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1309339/fan_mail/new] After more than 5 years of hosting The Evolving Leader, Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are launching their new show The Mindset Economy in January 2026. The new show will explore how to live better, work smarter and be connected in a more uncertain world where machines can think.  Available wherever you get your podcasts.

'The Power of No' with Dr Sunita Sah

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are joined by Dr. Sunita Sah, a physician turned organisational psychologist and Professor of Management at Cornell University. Together they explore the power of saying “no” in a world that rewards compliance. Drawing from her acclaimed book “Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes”, Dr Sah reveals how our upbringing, institutions, and social pressures teach us to equate being “good” with being obedient, and how that conditioning can silence our values. She introduces the concept of “insinuation anxiety,” the discomfort of implying distrust when we disagree, and shares how to build the courage and skill to act in alignment with what truly matters. For senior leaders, this conversation reframes defiance as an essential leadership practice, not rebellion, but integrity in action. Sah explains the five stages of defiance, the cost of compliance, and why organisations that cultivate psychological safety and intellectual humility outperform those that suppress challenge. It’s a thought-provoking guide to leading with authenticity, courage, and moral clarity in complex systems where it’s often easier to say yes. Further materials from Sunita Sah: “Defy: The Power of No in a Worlds That Demands Yes”, (Blink Publishing, February 2025) “The science of defiance: A psychology researcher explains why people comply – and how to resist”, (The Conversations, September 2025) “America thinks it’s a country of free thinkers. But we’re actually compliant”, (Los Angeles Times, February 2025)  “How to Say No and Mean It”, (Psychology Today, January 2025)    Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender: Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1309339/fan_mail/new] After more than 5 years of hosting The Evolving Leader, Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are launching their new show The Mindset Economy in January 2026. The new show will explore how to live better, work smarter and be connected in a more uncertain world where machines can think.  Available wherever you get your podcasts.

'The Extinction of Experience' with Dr Christine Rosen

In this thought-provoking episode of The Evolving Leader, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender talk with Dr Christine Rosen, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and author of The Extinction of Experience. The conversation examines how our growing dependence on technology is subtly reshaping what it means to be human, thinning our attention, dulling empathy, and changing how we connect and make sense of the world. Drawing on history, neuroscience and cultural observation, Christine invites us to pause and consider what is the true cost of convenience, and how do we reclaim our embodied authentic experience in a digital world? For leaders, this conversation is a wake-up call. As AI accelerates and organisations seek ever greater efficiency, Rosen argues that the future advantage will belong to those who can cultivate distinctly human capacities, presence, curiosity, and discernment. Her insights challenge us to create workplaces that strengthen, rather than outsource, our humanity.   Further materials from Christine Rosen: ‘The Extinction Of Experience’ (Jan, 2025) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extinction-Experience-Christine-Rosen/dp/1847922082/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0]  Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:  Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1309339/fan_mail/new] After more than 5 years of hosting The Evolving Leader, Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are launching their new show The Mindset Economy in January 2026. The new show will explore how to live better, work smarter and be connected in a more uncertain world where machines can think.  Available wherever you get your podcasts.

BONUS EPISODE - "Innovate Into The Unknown" with Atif Rafiq

In this bonus episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, co-hosts Scott Allender and Arjun Sahdev talk to Atif Rafiq, the first Chief Digital Officer in Fortune 500 history and former senior executive at McDonald’s, Volvo, and MGM Resorts. Now CEO and co-founder of Ritual, an AI-powered workflow platform, Atif shares how leaders can build decision-making systems that are faster, fairer, and more adaptive in an age of complexity. He explains his core principle of “exploration before alignment” and why premature agreement kills curiosity and weakens problem-solving. Find out more about Atif Rafiq: www.ritual.work [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ritual.work%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846072387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pIei%2BogFRsdUslKXtX%2BlszbLWeVWHWbTSolquv2yMNI%3D&reserved=0] www.decisionsprint.com [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.decisionsprint.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846087870%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XO8K2SQgdJ%2FV6ziz9V3HmT2TMXihahNMFcro6SuJpNE%3D&reserved=0] https://www.linkedin.com/in/atif1/ [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fatif1%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846097417%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3%2FjGv4GOhABFbWieyma74V3q6DEoSCW69GTxazrEZ3Y%3D&reserved=0] https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/re-wire-6765332215867031552/ [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fnewsletters%2Fre-wire-6765332215867031552%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846108127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MV%2FdsnP3CJ4Azv1TPLL8yj6pe9HniXU1b3xmY1Yk358%3D&reserved=0] Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender: Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1309339/fan_mail/new] After more than 5 years of hosting The Evolving Leader, Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are launching their new show The Mindset Economy in January 2026. The new show will explore how to live better, work smarter and be connected in a more uncertain world where machines can think.  Available wherever you get your podcasts.