The Ezra Klein Show

George Saunders on Anger, Ambition and Sin

George Saunders is tired of being the “kindness guy.” Saunders is one of my favorite fiction writers, and a friend of the pod; I talked to him back in 2021 and 2022. He also has a reputation as a kind of guru of kindness, thanks to a viral commencement speech he gave back in 2013. We talked about kindness on the show before. But with the publication of his new novel, “Vigil,” I noticed that something about Saunders seemed to have shifted. He was pushing back against that public persona, and wrestling with darker themes. “Vigil” follows an oil tycoon who, on his deathbed, is visited by angels and people from his past asking him to reassess his life. And you can feel a tension in that book that is also very alive in Saunders himself — between recognizing how much of our lives are conditioned by our circumstances and the need to pass judgment to reckon with the truth. In this conversation, I discuss that tension with Saunders. I ask him about his relationship not just to kindness but also to anger; how he defines sin; whether he believes in free will; and what he thinks lies beyond kindness. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Vigil [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/564991/vigil-by-george-saunders/] by George Saunders “What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-george-saunders.html]” by The Ezra Klein Show “George Saunders Convocation Speech 2013 [https://youtu.be/ruJWd_m-LgY?si=IW-R-Xq9LrMDKuHn]” “A Tough Question Indeed [https://georgesaunders.substack.com/p/a-tough-question-indeed]” by George Saunders East West Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/227917/east-west-street-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands “When Is It Genocide? [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/13/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-philippe-sands.html]” by The Ezra Klein Show Book Recommendations: I Will Bear Witness, Volume 1 [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/93731/i-will-bear-witness-volume-1-by-victor-klemperer/] by Victor Klemperer Red Cavalry and Other Stories [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/297974/red-cavalry-and-other-stories-by-isaac-babel/] by Isaac Babel The Place of Tides [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-place-of-tides-james-rebanks?variant=43162107904034] by James Rebanks Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota, Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We Didn’t Ask for This Internet

Ragebait, sponcon, A.I. slop — the internet of 2026 makes a lot of us nostalgic for the internet of 10 or 15 years ago. What exactly went wrong here? How did the early promise of the internet get so twisted? And what exactly is wrong here? What kinds of policies could actually make our digital lives meaningfully better? Cory Doctorow and Tim Wu have two different theories of the case, which I thought would be interesting to put in conversation together. Doctorow is a science fiction writer, an activist with the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the author of “Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It.” Wu is a law professor who worked on technology policy in the Biden White House; his latest book is “The Age of Extraction: How Tech Platforms Conquered the Economy and Threaten Our Future Prosperity.” In this conversation, we discuss their different frameworks, and how they connect to all kinds of issues that plague the modern internet: the feeling that we’re being manipulated; the deranging of our politics; the squeezing of small businesses and creators; the deluge of spam and fraud; the constant surveillance and privacy risks; the quiet rise of algorithmic pricing; and the dehumanization of work. And they lay out the policies that they think would go furthest in making all these different aspects of our digital lives better. Mentioned: Enshittification [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374619329/enshittification/] by Cory Doctorow The Age of Extraction [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/691177/the-age-of-extraction-by-tim-wu/] by Tim Wu “Fighting Enshittification [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/06/podcast-episode-fighting-enshittification]” by Josh Richman Book Recommendations: Small Is Beautiful [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/small-is-beautiful-e-f-schumacher?variant=32123084374050] by E. F. Schumacher Manipulation [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/manipulation/765E60E350E91AC286F42718AD154B08] by Cass R. Sunstein The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/91615/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-great-powers-by-paul-kennedy/] by Paul Kennedy Careless People [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250391230/carelesspeople/] by Sarah Wynn-Williams Little Bosses Everywhere [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/715421/little-bosses-everywhere-by-bridget-read/] by Bridget Read Jules, Penny & the Rooster [https://tachyonpublications.com/product/jules-penny-the-rooster/] by Daniel Pinkwater Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Will Peischel. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Michelle Harris, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Natasha Scott. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is Your Social Life Missing Something? This Is For You.

My motivation for this episode is personal. One of my resolutions this year is to spend more time hosting and to make those gatherings more meaningful. I think a lot of us wish we had better social lives and a stronger feeling of community around us. But it’s hard. We’re busy, we’re tired, and social planning and hosting can feel like just more work. So I asked Priya Parker on the show to help. Parker is the author of “The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/319055/the-art-of-gathering-by-priya-parker/]” and a wonderful Substack, Group Life [https://priyaparker.substack.com/]. She’s also a conflict resolution facilitator. And she just thinks about gathering and hosting in a different way from anyone else I’ve ever met. For her, it’s about more than just throwing a great dinner party; it’s about how we build community across differences, all the way up to how gathering can help create a better politics. The way Zohran Mamdani’s mayoral campaign thought about community and built community among its volunteers was partly based on her work and advice. This episode is a bit of a break from politics — but also not. Because pulling the people we love closer and spending more time together rather than alone are as essential as any political or civic discipline could be right now. This conversation contains strong language. Mentioned: In Defense of Politics [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo3637614.html] by Bernard Crick I And Thou [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/I-And-Thou/Martin-Buber/9780684717258] by Martin Buber The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/212138/the-loneliness-of-sonia-and-sunny-by-kiran-desai/] by Kiran Desai “Adorable Little Detonators [https://www.thecut.com/article/adult-friendships-vs-kids.html]” by Allison P. Davis “The Accused [https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/accused-men-say-the-system-hurting-college-sexual-assault-su]” by Katie J.M. Baker “The Black Thought Project [https://www.blackthoughtproject.com/]” by Alicia Walters “Zohran’s Smile [https://the.ink/p/essay-zohrans-smile]” by Anand Giridharadas Book Recommendations: The Politics of Ritual [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691198910/the-politics-of-ritual?srsltid=AfmBOopx9FJqCz1eNLN9DUYW5RKBZXSBqSnBVuyximvCTR2r4S4COuxO] by Molly Farneth On Repentance and Repair [https://www.beacon.org/On-Repentance-and-Repair-P1850.aspx] by Danya Ruttenberg BoyMom [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705378/boymom-by-ruth-whippman/] by Ruth Whippman Talk to Your Boys [https://www.talktoyourboys.com/] by Christopher Pepper and Joanna Schroeder Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How the World Sees America, With Adam Tooze

The old world order is dying. What new world order — if any — is struggling to be born? I can’t think of a week when it felt clearer that an era was coming to an end. Whatever people thought America was, at least for a couple of decades, it’s something else now. The killing of Alex Pretti and the fact that it was recorded on video that plainly contradicted the Trump administration’s initial narrative made that clear. Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada, also drove home that point when he declared at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, that the world was in the midst of a “rupture.” What do people think of America now in Europe? In China? And if American hegemony is coming to an end, what comes after that? Adam Tooze is a historian at Columbia University and a chronicler of crises. The Guardian recently called him “the crisis whisperer.” He’s written a number of books about the times when systems fall apart and new orders emerge, including “Crashed: How a Decade of Financial Crises Changed the World.” And on his Substack, Chartbook, he tracks the unfolding crises and power shifts, in particular the rise of China. He also had a front-row seat to the chaos of Davos last week, moderating a panel that included Howard Lutnick, the commerce secretary. I wanted to talk to Tooze about what he saw at the World Economic Forum, how the world’s understanding of the U.S. is changing and how he’s making sense of this moment. Mentioned: Crashed [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/301357/crashed-by-adam-tooze/] by Adam Tooze “Chartbook [https://adamtooze.substack.com/]” Substack by Adam Tooze “The Empty Chamber [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/08/09/the-empty-chamber]” by George Packer “The growing challenges for monetary policy in the current international monetary and financial system [https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2019/mark-carney-speech-at-jackson-hole-economic-symposium-wyoming]", speech by Mark Carney Book Recommendations: Diary of a Madman and Other Stories [https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/diary-of-a-madman-and-other-stories/] by Lu Xun The Southern Tour [https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/southern-tour-9781350435711/] by Jonathan Chatwin Context Collapse [https://www.sevenstories.com/books/4657-context-collapse?srsltid=AfmBOoqhqxGMkrnG_9Yb4dIxj7LHFcx639xRClZ1Dgk5rfgEtTjZrNCV] by Ryan Ruby Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The Most Important Foreign Policy Speech in Years

“We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition,” Prime Minister Mark Carney of Canada announced last week at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. It was one of the most significant foreign policy speeches in years, sending shockwaves through the international community. He was describing a dynamic that’s been building for decades — what the scholars Henry Farrell and Abraham Newman call “weaponized interdependence” — that has now reached a tipping point. I asked Farrell on the show to explain this dynamic, why this is a “rupture” moment and how other countries are responding. He is an international-affairs professor at Johns Hopkins University, is an author of the book “Underground Empire: How America Weaponized the World Economy” and writes an excellent Substack, Programmable Mutter. Note: This episode touches on the clashes over immigration enforcement in Minneapolis and the killing of Renee Good, but it was recorded on Friday, before the killing of Alex Pretti. Mentioned: “Davos 2026: Special address by Mark Carney, Prime Minister of Canada [https://www.weforum.org/stories/2026/01/davos-2026-special-address-by-mark-carney-prime-minister-of-canada/]” Underground Empire [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250840554/undergroundempire/] by Henry Farrell and Abraham Newman “Programmable Mutter [https://www.programmablemutter.com/]” by Henry Farrell “The nature and sources of liberal international order [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/review-of-international-studies/article/abs/nature-and-sources-of-liberal-international-order/085D7A99C0C9EFB5F96BE9B096DD9548]” by Daniel Deudney and G. John Ikenberry “The Enshittification of American Power [https://www.wired.com/story/enshittification-of-american-power/]” by Henry Farrell and Abraham L. Newman “Too big to care [https://doctorow.medium.com/https-pluralistic-net-2024-04-04-teach-me-how-to-shruggie-kagi-caaa88c221f2]” by Cory Doctorow Weapons of the Weak [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300036411/weapons-of-the-weak/] by James C. Scott Private Truths, Public Lies [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674707580] by Timur Kuran “Further Back to the Future: Neo-Royalism, the Trump Administration, and the Emerging International System [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/article/further-back-to-the-future-neoroyalism-the-trump-administration-and-the-emerging-international-system/ABB12906CA345BBCA5049B544363D391]” by Stacie E. Goddard and Abraham Newman “The Dynamics of Informational Cascades: The Monday Demonstrations in Leipzig, East Germany, 1989–91 [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/world-politics/article/abs/dynamics-of-informational-cascades-the-monday-demonstrations-in-leipzig-east-germany-198991/2ED97676F689092E4DDD1F61418F20B9]” by Susanne Lohmann Book Recommendations: Dollars and Dominion [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691248134/dollars-and-dominion?srsltid=AfmBOool1mp3wtzkFAHfjLCNVK1fV18NIJMCsva4C_Sn-mliXwbKdxFz] by Mary Bridges Nonesuch [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Nonesuch/Francis-Spufford/9781668214374] by Francis Spufford The Score [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/735252/the-score-by-c-thi-nguyen/] by C. Thi Nguyen Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.