Teaching Meaning: Beyond "Just Tell Them"

Teaching Meaning: Beyond "Just Tell Them"

Drew Perkins [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewperkins/] talks with with author and educator Christian Moore to critically examine the "just tell them" model of instruction often championed by popular "science of learning" advocates. Drawing from his book, Teaching Meaning: What Works When Telling Isn't Enough, Moore introduces the framework of "enactivism"—the cognitive science-based perspective that meaning cannot be simply transmitted from teacher to student, but must be actively enacted through experience. This conversation challenges the reliance on scripted, atomized curricula and argues for a "Teaching With" approach that prioritizes professional judgment, relational adaptation, and the critical role of variation in student learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode [https://wegrowteachers.com/thoughtstretchers-podcast-teaching-meaning-beyond-just-tell-them] Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org [drew@thoughtstretchers.org]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ThoughtStretchers%20Education-podcast/id1052524546] or wherever you're listening. Key Takeaways & Learning Objectives * The Enactivist Framework: Understand the shift from viewing students as "storage vessels" to "active inferencers" who construct meaning through mutual, relational adaptation. * Defining Instructional Stances: Distinguish between "Teaching To" (agreement-based), "Exploring With" (discovery-based), and "Teaching With" (relational adaptation), and why the latter is the most effective for deep understanding. * The Role of Variation: Discover why "variety gives meaning"—and how structuring lessons around key distinctions rather than isolated facts helps students make sense of complex systems. * Critiquing the "Science of Learning": Explore the limitations of pre-requisite knowledge checks and rigid cognitive load strategies that can sometimes deskill teachers and reduce learning to shallow recitation. * Restoring Professional Agency: Learn why experienced educators must prioritize community of practice over top-down, punitive administrative mandates to prevent the "deskilling vortex." Episode Highlights & Timecodes * 00:10:02 – The Thesis of Enactivism: An introduction to Christian Moore's work and how enactivism bridges the gap between progressive discovery and traditionalist instruction. * 00:13:12 – The Three Stances: Moore defines the framework of "Teaching To," "Exploring With," and "Teaching With." * 00:17:01 – The Critique of "Just Tell Them": Why the "science of learning" advocacy can lead to a culture of achievement that prioritizes performance over authentic understanding. * 00:36:38 – Meaning as an Enacted Process: Why teaching is a biological and relational process, not a data transmission problem. * 00:45:41 – Planning for Key Distinctions: Practical strategies for lesson planning that center on distinguishing concepts rather than flat delivery of content. * 01:10:45 – Premeditated vs. Relational Teaching: The danger of "atomized" lessons and why real-time, feedback-driven teaching is essential for cognitive development. * 01:23:03 – Combating the "Deskilling Vortex": A critical look at how scripted curricula and high-stakes inspection cultures impact teacher retention and professional growth.

Paul Black's Legacy of Assessment for learning

In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers Education Podcast, Drew Perkins [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewperkins/] talks with leading education thinkers Dylan Wiliam, Jo Boaler, and Chris Harrison to explore the work and life of Paul Black and his profound impact on teaching and learning, especially the concept of assessment for learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode [https://wegrowteachers.com/thoughtstretchers-podcast-paul-black-assessment-for-learning] Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org [drew@thoughtstretchers.org]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ThoughtStretchers%20Education-podcast/id1052524546] or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview In this special episode, host Drew Perkins brings together a panel of world-renowned educational figures, Dylan Wiliam, Jo Boaler, and Chris Harrison, to evaluate the profound, global impact of the late Paul Black on international education policy and classroom practice. Transitioning from a distinguished background in physics and crystallography to become the absolute cornerstone of modern science education and assessment framework, Paul Black fundamentally reshaped how the world defines student evaluation. This conversation bridges historical policy milestones, such as Black's masterful chairing of the 1987 Task Group on Assessment and Testing (TGAT), with modern instructional hurdles, illustrating beautifully why assessment must serve as a vehicle for authentic meaning-making, intellectual humility, and autonomous learner agency rather than a mechanical system for tracking or ranking students. Core Themes & Key Takeaways * The Historical Architecture: The 1987 TGAT Reform: Commissioned by Secretary of State for Education Kenneth Baker, Paul Black chaired the Task Group on Assessment and Testing. His team proposed a revolutionary, age-independent progressive assessment scale that reframed student growth as continuous development rather than static metrics. Despite major political pushback, this foundational blueprint successfully dictated national curriculum frameworks in England for two decades. * Inside the Black Box: Moving Research directly into Practitioners' Hands: Dylan Wiliam and Chris Harrison recount the deliberate, user-centric choice to look past dense, extensive academic journal articles and publish the seminal 1998 work, Inside the Black Box, as a slim, highly accessible 28-page booklet. This targeted dissemination placed actionable research directly in front of busy classroom practitioners. Furthermore, Wiliam clarifies why their historical look was a configurative review meant to map the conceptual schema of the field rather than a simple meta-analysis. * Redefining Assessment for Learning (AfL): Dialogue over Spreadsheets: The panel issues a stark, cross-continental warning against institutional evaluation frameworks (heavily prevalent in the United States) that compress formative assessment into teacher-led data entries on spreadsheets every few weeks. True Assessment for Learning is an interactive, real-time diagnostic process rooted in rich classroom dialogue, extracting student misconceptions, and adjusting the immediate pedagogical path. * Cultivating Learner Agency: Releasing "Explorer Mode": Formative feedback must move toward its own redundancy, systematically transitioning students out of passive compliance ("Passenger Mode") or fragile grade-chasing ("Achiever Mode") into self-regulating agents of their own intellectual development ("Explorer Mode"). * The Pedagogy of Humility and Curiosity: Jo Boaler and Chris Harrison share intimate reflections on Paul Black's style as a PhD advisor and colleague. Despite his massive national stature, Black routinely deferred to doctoral students, treating them as co-investigators and displaying immense intellectual curiosity about how young minds think. Episode Timeline & Milestone Highlights Use these timestamp tokens to jump directly to key points in the panel's conversation: * 00:00:11 – Introductions, cross-continental logistics, and session framing. * 00:04:25 – Unpacking the historical impact: Paul Black's transition from physics and crystallography to science education policy. * 00:08:16 – Dylan Wiliam outlines his multi-decade intellectual partnership with Black starting at Chelsea College. * 00:10:36 – Chris Harrison details Black's post-retirement career and managing 19 international translational action research projects. * 00:13:39 – Jo Boaler discusses Black's guidance on validating qualitative research data and handling academic journal rejections. * 00:19:43 – The inner workings of the 1987 Task Group on Assessment and Testing (TGAT) and Kenneth Baker's national curriculum scale. * 00:22:05 – Subject-specific progression models: Unpacking the "progression is harder" vs. "progression is better" friction across disciplines. * 00:26:19 – The rationale behind a configurative review over traditional meta-analysis inside poorly theorized fields. * 00:31:57 – Collaborative research dynamics: Working alongside teachers to let them build localized knowledge instead of imposing top-down scripts. * 00:36:06 – Integrating growth mindset structures into math classrooms via open-ended, speed-independent tasks. * 00:41:44 – Cultivating student self-regulation as an alternative to US data entry tracking spreadsheets. * 00:47:47 – Exploring the three distinct pathways of progression: harder, better, and more independent. * 00:58:01 – Debunking the mathematical efficiency myth: Reasoning and pattern discovery vs. computational speed. * 01:06:02 – Long-term learning goals vs. short-term multiple-choice testing metrics in an AI-driven future. * 01:10:05 – Teachers as knowledge workers: David Daniel's research on why lab findings reverse when deployed into complex classrooms. * 01:15:56 – Utilizing psychometrics (Mark Wilson's framework) to discover what a student needs to learn next rather than simply to rank them.

Show, Don't Just Tell: Explaining For Understanding

Drew Perkins [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewperkins/] talks with James Moore, author of Explain Yourself: Master the Art of Explanation in the Age of AI, about how educators and communicators can effectively teach complex concepts. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode [https://wegrowteachers.com/thoughtstretchers-podcast-show-dont-just-tell-explaining-for-understanding] Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org [drew@thoughtstretchers.org]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ThoughtStretchers%20Education-podcast/id1052524546] or wherever you're listening. James, a former physics teacher and writer for the science-focused YouTube channel Veritasium, champions the core principle of "Show, Don't Just Tell". They unpack his powerful framework for clear explanation: SAD (Structure, Audience, Detail). The conversation tackles the tension between explicit instruction and inquiry, the role of cognitive load in learning, and why balancing technical accuracy with clarity is essential. Learn how starting with concrete examples (a bottom-up approach) and creating a curiosity gap can make the content click. Tune in for a masterclass on teaching, communication, and understanding in the age of AI. The discussion features James Moore, who shares his mission to help people explain complex concepts as clearly as possible. * [0:05:07] The Motivation Behind Explain Yourself: James's transition from a classroom physics teacher to an online content creator required creating content that is understood the first time, leading to his obsession with clear explanation. * [0:06:50] The Core Thesis: Show, Don't Tell: The most effective way to explain something is often not to tell, but to show through stories or examples that connect to biologically primary knowledge. * [0:08:45] The SAD Framework: Explaining complex concepts is best approached through three lenses: Structure, Audience, and Detail. * [0:16:22] Cognitive Load, Curiosity, and Schema Building: Curiosity acts as a motivator that helps ease the friction of cognitive load, with the goal of making content "click". * [0:18:50] Expert vs. Learner Thinking: Experts store information top-down, but teaching should start bottom-up, using a series of examples to allow learners to infer the rule and build schema. Instructional Strategies & Audience * [0:22:13] Checking for Understanding: Asking "Does that make sense?" is a poor proxy for comprehension. Use targeted application problems or specific questions instead. * [0:28:18] Unpacking Structure (S): Start with a specific, concrete example to create context and an image in the learner's mind before introducing the abstract, general rule. * [0:31:37] Unpacking Audience (A): This lens involves balancing technical accuracy with clarity. Use simple models, like the staircase analogy for quantum physics, that can be refined later to avoid losing the audience. * [0:45:34] Unpacking Detail (D): The principle is "Less is More" to manage cognitive load. It also means atomizing complex concepts to avoid the "curse of knowledge," where experts assume their audience has already chunked the information. * [0:53:28] The Narrative Structure: Using the "And, But, Therefore/So" story structure helps maintain audience attention by constantly building tension, conflict, and resolution. * [0:58:20] Content Dictates Modality: The subject matter (e.g., learning a language or installing a car part) should drive the choice of teaching modality (video vs. text) rather than relying on learner preferences.

Reimagining Our Pedagogy Conversations

Drew Perkins [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewperkins/] talks with education journalist and author Holly Korbey to explore the complex intersection of cognitive science and progressive pedagogy. While the "Reading Wars" often dominate headlines, Drew and Holly dig deeper into the underlying tensions between explicit, knowledge-rich instruction and the desire for student-led inquiry. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode [https://wegrowteachers.com/thoughtstretchers-podcast-reimagining-pedagogy-conversations] Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ThoughtStretchers%20Education-podcast/id1052524546] or wherever you're listening. The heart of this conversation focuses on bridging the gap between human cognitive architecture and the ideals of inquiry-based learning. Holly and Drew discuss the "false dichotomy" that often pits these two approaches against each other. They explore how a deep foundation of background knowledge is actually the essential fuel that makes high-level inquiry possible. Holly shares insights into how schools are successfully integrating these worlds. They discuss "engineering the discovery," where teachers use explicit instruction to build the necessary schema, then step back to allow students to engage in meaningful inquiry. This episode serves as a roadmap for moving beyond tribalism and toward an integrated model of teaching. Timestamped Episode Timeline * [00:04:15] Introduction to Holly Korbey – From education reporting to researching civic education. * [00:10:45] The Tension Between Science and Inquiry – Why cognitive science and progressive ideals are often viewed as being at odds. * [00:16:30] Knowledge as the Engine of Inquiry – How building robust long-term memory allows for more complex questioning. * [00:23:15] The "Both/And" Approach – Moving past tribal camps to find a balance between guidance and agency. * [00:32:05] Schema Building in Early Years – Why content-rich instruction is vital for developing critical thinkers. * [00:41:40] Navigating Controversial Topics – Using cognitive tools to facilitate deep inquiry into "hard history." * [00:50:55] Reimagining Professional Learning – Shifting staff discussions from "tools" to pedagogical philosophy. * [01:06:40] Practical Advice for Educators – How to integrate cognitive load principles into an inquiry classroom. * [01:13:20] Closing Remarks – Where to follow Holly's work.

Is The 'What & How' We Teach Math All Wrong?

Drew Perkins [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewperkins/] welcomes back Ted Dintersmith to discuss the urgent need to move away from an education system obsessed with standardized testing and toward one that empowers students to do real, meaningful work. In his new book, Aftermath, and documentary, Multiple Choice, Dintersmith argues that our current system is "perfectly designed" to produce results that are increasingly irrelevant in an age of AI and automation. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode [https://wegrowteachers.com/thoughtstretchers-podcast-teach-math-wrong] * * Ted Dintersmith.com [https://teddintersmith.com/] * Book: Aftermath: The Life-Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You [https://a.co/d/01M0UpHT] * Film: multiplechoicefilm.com [https://www.multiplechoicefilm.com/] * The ThoughtStretchers (then TeachThought) Podcast Ep. 115 Let's Talk About What School Could Be [https://wegrowteachers.com/the-thoughtstretchers-education-podcast-ep-115-lets-talk-about-what-school-could-be/] (2018) Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org [drew@thoughtstretchers.org]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ThoughtStretchers%20Education-podcast/id1052524546] or wherever you're listening. A significant portion of this conversation focuses on Ted's critique of the traditional math "treadmill." Drawing from his new book, Ted explores the "What and How" of teaching math. He argues that the current "What"—a heavy focus on symbolic manipulation and rote procedures—is largely obsolete. Regarding the "How," Ted shares inspiring examples of teachers who have moved toward Project-Based Learning kind of instruction. He describes classrooms where math is taught through real-world applications—like analyzing local economic trends—where learning happens through trial, error, and collaborative inquiry. By centering math on student agency, Ted argues we can move from "math trauma" to empowering students to solve complex, non-routine problems. Timestamped Episode Timeline * [00:04:15] Introduction to Ted Dintersmith – From venture capital to a 50-state tour investigating the future of education. * [00:09:30] The Flaw in the System – Why our schools are designed for a world that no longer exists. * [00:15:45] The Math Treadmill – Ted breaks down why our current math curriculum is a "filter" rather than a foundation. * [00:22:10] The "What" of Math – Shifting from symbolic manipulation to data literacy and quantitative reasoning. * [00:28:40] The "How" of Math – Using real-world problems to teach mathematical thinking instead of rote procedures. * [00:35:15] The Impact of AI – How generative AI makes the "calculational" aspect of math a commodity. * [00:43:05] Defining PEAK Learning – Breaking down Purpose, Essential Skills, Agency, and Knowledge. * [00:52:20] Performance-Based Assessment – Moving toward portfolios and "defense of learning" models. * [01:05:30] Advice for Parents – How to advocate for a more meaningful educational experience for your children. * [01:12:45] Closing Remarks – Where to find Ted's books and follow his ongoing work in school reform.