4: Fight or Flight

6: David and Goliath

The new Trump Administration may openly embrace white Christian nationalism, but Pastor Caleb and other evangelical resistors are gaining momentum. They’re connecting to a bigger pro-democracy movement where faith groups and secular groups are uneasily allied against theocracy. Show Notes: Learn more and Follow Ruth Braunstein’s Substack [https://ruthbraunstein.substack.com]. Episode Guests: Caleb E. Campbell is a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor [https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan]. https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/ [https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/] Kristin Kobes Du Mez [https://kristindumez.com/] is a New York Times bestselling author and Professor of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University.  Her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics, and her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Lionel Estrada is a father, grandfather, Jesus follower, worship leader, songwriter and addiction/trauma therapist from Phoenix, AZ. He has been a member of Desert Springs Bible Church for almost 20 years. Jemar Tisby [https://jemartisby.com/] is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the Church's Complicity in Racism, How to Fight Racism, and How to Fight Racism: Young Reader's Edition. He is also a Professor of History at Simmons College of Kentucky in Louisville. Jemar is the co-host of the "Pass the Mic" podcast.  Napp Nazworth, Ph.D. [https://substack.com/@nappnazworth], is Executive Director of American Values Coalition [https://americanvalues.org/]. He previously worked in academia teaching courses in U.S. government, Congress, and religion and politics; and as a journalist, serving as opinion editor and politics editor for The Christian Post. Katherine Stewart [https://katherinestewart.me/] is the award-winning author of Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy. https://katherinestewart.me [https://katherinestewart.me/] For more, including full transcripts, go to WhenTheWolvesCame.org [http://whenthewolvescame.org/] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

5: Down the Rabbit Hole

We attend a Christian nationalist event shortly before the 2024 election and talk to an extremism expert about how to prevent radicalization. One QAnon believer changes his tune with the help of Pastor Caleb and his church. Show Notes: Learn more: Multi-faith Neighbors Network Peacemakers Toolkit [https://www.sfcg.org/peacemakerstoolkit/] and Disarming Leviathan [https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/] Episode Guests: Caleb E. Campbell is a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor [https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan]. https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/ [https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/] Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss is a Professor in the School of Public Affairs and in the School of Education at the American University in Washington, DC, where she is also the founding director of the Polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab [https://perilresearch.com/]. John Thielepape is Director of Projects at GlocalNet and Multi-faith Neighbors Network [https://mfnn.org]in Keller, TX.  John attended Belmont University, Baylor University, and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary obtaining BBA, Master of Divinity, and Doctor of Ministry degrees. Lionel Estrada is a father, grandfather, Jesus follower, worship leader, songwriter and addiction/trauma therapist from Phoenix, AZ. He has been a member of Desert Springs Bible Church for almost 20 years. Nathan Whitchurch graduated from the University of Southern California in 2007 with a B.S. Mechanical Engineering degree and moved to Phoenix, AZ.  Nathan joined the DSBC board of elders in 2013 and continues to serve as an elder, volunteer, and spiritual leader there. For more, including full transcripts, go to WhenTheWolvesCame.org [http://whenthewolvescame.org/] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

4: Fight or Flight

Evangelical leaders horrified by the extremism in their churches wonder: Is it better to break ties with people who you believe are dangerously wrong – or try to lead them out of the dark? Pastor Caleb comes up with a surprising plan.  Show Notes Episode Guests: Caleb E. Campbell [https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/] is a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor.  Nathan Whitchurch graduated from the University of Southern California in 2007 with a B.S. Mechanical Engineering degree and moved to Phoenix, AZ. Nathan joined the DSBC board of elders in 2013 and continues to serve as an elder, volunteer, and spiritual leader there. Kristin Kobes Du Mez [https://kristindumez.com/] is a New York Times bestselling author and Professor of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University. Her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics, and her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Jared Stacy [https://jaredstacy.com] (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is an ethicist and theologian based in Washington DC. His research focuses on evangelical theology, digital media, and political extremisms, particularly conspiracy theory and mis/disinformation.  Jemar Tisby [https://jemartisby.com/] is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the Church's Complicity in Racism, How to Fight Racism, and How to Fight Racism: Young Reader's Edition. He is also a Professor of History at Simmons College of Kentucky in Louisville. Jemar is the co-host of the "Pass the Mic" podcast.  Katherine Stewart [https://katherinestewart.me/] is the award-winning author of Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy.  For more, including full transcripts, go to WhenTheWolvesCame.org [http://whenthewolvescame.org/] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

3: The Great Re-Sorting

COVID-19 church closures, a summer of Black Lives Matter protests, and a tense Presidential election all fan the flames of white Christian nationalism. Two churches in Phoenix react in wildly different ways, with dramatic results.  Content warning: this episode includes a depiction of police violence that might be disturbing to some listeners. Show Notes: Learn more: Religious Change in America | PRRI [https://www.prri.org/research/religious-change-in-america/] Episode Guests: Caleb E. Campbell is a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor [https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan]. https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/ [https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/] Kristin Kobes Du Mez [https://kristindumez.com/] is a New York Times bestselling author and Professor of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University.  Her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics, and her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Linda Morris was called to the ministry in 1986 and has served at the First Pentecostal Church, the Mountain States Council and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World including being a founding member of the PAW Single People’s Alliance and a former member of the Convention Evangelism Outreach Services (C.E.O.S.). She recently led the Surge Network Women In Leadership and serves as Outreach Director at First Pentecostal Church where she also teaches biblical worldview, wholistic ministry, and evangelism and outreach for the church’s discipleship classes and other groups Katherine Stewart [https://katherinestewart.me/] is the award-winning author of Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy. https://katherinestewart.me [https://katherinestewart.me/] Robert P. Jones [https://substack.com/@robertpjones] is the president and founder of Public Religion Research Institute [https://www.prri.org](PRRI). He is the author of The New York Times bestselling book, The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy and the Path to a Shared American Future [https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Roots-White-Supremacy-American/dp/166800951X/].  Nathan Whitchurch graduated from the University of Southern California in 2007 with a B.S. Mechanical Engineering degree and moved to Phoenix, AZ.  Nathan joined the Desert Springs Bible Church board of elders in 2013 and continues to serve as an elder, volunteer, and spiritual leader there. For more, including full transcripts, go to WhenTheWolvesCame.org [http://whenthewolvescame.org/] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

2: Rise of the MAGAchurch

Political divisions within Pastor Caleb’s church and at a leading Christian magazine reveal how predominantly white evangelical spaces became hothouses for Christian nationalism. Republican politics, militant masculinity and QAnon conspiracy theories all contribute to its spread. Show Notes: Learn more: The Persistence of QAnon in the Post-Trump Era: An Analysis of Who Believes the Conspiracies | PRRI [https://www.prri.org/research/the-persistence-of-qanon-in-the-post-trump-era-an-analysis-of-who-believes-the-conspiracies/] Episode Guests: Caleb E. Campbell is a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor [https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan]. https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/ [https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/] Robert P. Jones [https://substack.com/@robertpjones] is the president and founder of Public Religion Research Institute [https://www.prri.org](PRRI). He is the author of The New York Times bestselling book, The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy and the Path to a Shared American Future [https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Roots-White-Supremacy-American/dp/166800951X/]. Napp Nazworth, Ph.D. [https://substack.com/@nappnazworth], is Executive Director of American Values Coalition [https://americanvalues.org/]. He previously worked in academia teaching courses in U.S. government, Congress, and religion and politics; and as a journalist, serving as opinion editor and politics editor for The Christian Post. Kristin Kobes Du Mez [https://kristindumez.com/] is a New York Times bestselling author and Professor of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University. Her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics, and her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Lionel Estrada is a father, grandfather, Jesus follower, worship leader, songwriter and addiction/trauma therapist from Phoenix, AZ. He has been a member of Desert Springs Bible Church for almost 20 years. For more, including full transcripts, go to WhenTheWolvesCame.org [http://whenthewolvescame.org/] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].