Sober AF, Michael Scott Phobia, and How to Politely End a Conversation

You Don't Get an A for Effort

Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. Brené and Adam unpack the difference between effort and excellence, why coaching matters more than judgment, and how unclear priorities can quietly derail even the hardest-working teams. From there the conversation moves further into prioritization, a consequential 2x2 decision-making framework, and how leaders inadvertently signal the wrong priorities through their emotional reactions. Circling back to effort, they also discuss why the first question leaders should ask when results fall short is whether they set their team up for success in the first place. Plus, Brené has a real-time realization that her own team may not be aligned on what's actually consequential. Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know – Adam Grant, 2021, Viking [https://adamgrant.net/book/think-again/] Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/strong-ground/] No, You Don't Get an A for Effort – Adam Grant, 2024, The New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/opinion/school-grades-a-quantity-quality.html] Mindset: The New Psychology of Success – Carol Dweck, 2006, Random House [https://bookshop.org/p/books/mindset-the-new-psychology-of-success-carol-s-dweck/aaaba3bad0daa3a3?ean=9780345472328] Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation and Performance – Mueller & Dweck, 1998, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology [https://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/courses/3615/Readings/Mueller_Dweck.pdf?] What Having a “Growth Mindset” Actually Means – Carol Dweck, 2016, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2016/01/what-having-a-growth-mindset-actually-means] “Both/And” Leadership – Wendy Smith, 2016, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2016/05/both-and-leadership] Genius of the AND – Jim Collins, n.d., JimCollins.com [https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/genius-of-the-and.html] Reversible and Irreversible Decisions – Shane Parrish, n.d., Farnam Street [https://fs.blog/reversible-irreversible-decisions/] The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You – Elaine Aron, 1996, Broadway Books [https://hsperson.com/] Sensory-Processing Sensitivity and Its Relation to Introversion and Emotionality – Elaine Aron, 1997, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13971997_Sensory-Processing_Sensitivity_and_Its_Relation_to_Introversion_and_Emotionality] Above/Below the Line Practice – Brené Brown, 2025, BrenéBrown.com [https://brenebrown.com/resources/above-below-the-line/] Fairy Tales and Script Drama Analysis – Stephen Karpman, 1968, Transactional Analysis Bulletin [https://karpmandramatriangle.com/pdf/DramaTriangle.pdf] (Origin paper for the villain/rescuer/victim model of conflict) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

Time Scarcity and Pocket Presence

Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. The conversation opens on time scarcity, the devaluation of future time, and whether hope is actually a strategy. From there they discuss how great leaders don't need all the right answers (just the right questions) and the difference between executive presence and pocket presence. While digging into how the five C's of delegation build the situational awareness and critical thinking that pocket presence requires, Adam has a breakthrough realization that pocket presence isn't just an individual skill, it's a collective capability. Executive presence, they agree, is "party of one." Resource Slack and Propensity to Discount Delayed Investments of Time Versus Money – Gal Zauberman, 2004, Journal of Experimental Psychology [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=502586] Time for Happiness – Ashley Whillans, 2019, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2019/01/time-for-happiness] Can We Afford to be Time Poor? The Hidden Tax of Time Poverty – Celestine Rosales, 2024, The Decision Lab [https://thedecisionlab.com/insights/society/can-we-afford-to-be-time-poor] The Will and the Ways – C. R. Snyder, 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology [https://ou.edu/content/dam/Tulsa/research/The-Will-and-the-Ways_Validation-of-Hope_Snyder.pdf] Hope Theory: Rainbows in the Mind – C. R. Snyder, 2002, Psychological Inquiry [https://blogs.shu.ac.uk/growplus/files/2020/02/Hope-Synder-paper.pdf] Golden Eggs and Hyperbolic Discounting – David Laibson, 1997, The Quarterly Journal of Economics [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24091574_Golden_Eggs_and_Hyperbolic_Discounting] Some Empirical Evidence on Dynamic Inconsistency – Richard Thaler, 1981, Economics Letters [https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/-/media/research/cdr/docs/thaler/some-empirical-evidence-on-dynamic-inconsistency.pdf] Future Self-Continuity: How Conceptions of the Future Self Transform Intertemporal Choice – Hal Hershfield, 2011, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3764505/] The stranger within: Connecting with our future selves – Cynthia Lee [https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/the-stranger-within-connecting-with-our-future-selves] April 9, 2015, UCLA Newsroom [https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/the-stranger-within-connecting-with-our-future-selves] We normally think of a weakness as a strength you lack, but it can also be a strength you overuse – Adam Grant, July 10, 2018, LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/adammgrant_we-normally-think-of-a-weakness-as-a-strength-activity-6422442215326388224-7gBy/] Stop Overdoing Your Strengths – Robert Kaplan, 2009, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2009/02/stop-overdoing-your-strengths] Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/strong-ground/] Research: Vague Feedback Is Holding Women Back – Shelley Correll, 2016, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-women-back] The New Rules of Executive Presence – Sylvia Ann Hewlett, 2024, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2024/01/the-new-rules-of-executive-presence] Pocket Presence (Video) – Emmanuel Acho, n.d., TikTok [https://www.tiktok.com/@emmanuelacho/video/7171120918259895595] Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry – Flavell, 1979, American Psychologist [https://www.academia.edu/43757180/Metacognition_and_Cognitive_Monitoring_A_New_Area_of_Cognitive_Developmental_Inquiry] Essential social work theories & models – Syracuse University, n.d., OnlineGrad@Syracuse [https://onlinegrad.syracuse.edu/blog/social-work-theories/] The 5 Cs of strategic thinking, decision making, and delegating – Brené Brown, n.d., brenebrown.com [https://brenebrown.com/resources/context-color-connective-tissue-cost-and-consequence/] Atomic Habits – James Clear, 2018, Avery [https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

Sports as Leadership Theater and Recognizing Near Enemies

Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. They dig into the Buddhist concept of near and far enemies- and why the biggest threat to your values isn't the opposite of them, it's what masquerades as them. From there they move into discussion around the value of paradoxical thinking, why some tensions aren't meant to be resolved, and why sports are leadership theater. Plus a conversation about why future time is always undervalued. Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/strong-ground/] The Near Enemies of the Heart – Jack Kornfield, n.d., jackkornfield.com [https://jackkornfield.com/near-enemies-awakening/] Almost Everything: Notes on Hope – Anne Lamott, 2018, Riverhead Books (Chapter 2: “Inside Job”) [https://www.amazon.com/Almost-Everything-Notes-Anne-Lamott/dp/0525537449] 12 truths I learned from life and writing – Anne Lamott, July 13, 2017, TED (Video) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X41iulkRqZU] Anne Lamott's thoughts on love, writing, and being judgy – Adam Grant (Host), April 16, 2024, ReThinking with Adam Grant, TED Audio Collective [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/anne-lamotts-thoughts-on-love-writing-and-being-judgy/id1554567118?i=1000652527856] Genius of the AND – Jim Collins, n.d., jimcollins.com [https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/genius-of-the-and.html] Exploration and Exploitation in Organizational Learning – James G. March, 1991, Organization Science [https://strategy.sjsu.edu/www.stable/pdf/March,%20J.%20G.%20(1991).%20Organization%20Science%202(1)%2071-87.pdf] Putting Feelings Into Words – Lieberman et al., 2007, Psychological Science [https://sanlab.psych.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/31/2015/05/Lieberman_AL-2007.pdf] How to Tame Reactive Emotions by Naming Them – Mitch Abblett, 2022, Psychology Today [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassionate-warriors/202206/how-to-tame-reactive-emotions-by-naming-them] Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule – Paul Graham, 2009, paulgraham.com [https://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html] The Tush Push Explained – Kyle Brandt & Dr Neil DeGrasse Tyson, 2024, NFL (Video) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhIKA28BIRU] Togethxr’s ‘Everyone Watches Women’s Sports’ T-shirts go viral – Callie Holtermann, June 28, 2024. The New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/18/style/everyone-watches-womens-sports-shirt.html] Dr. Linda Hill on leading with purpose in the digital age – Brené Brown (Host), April 18, 2022, In Dare to Lead, Vox Media [https://brenebrown.com/podcast/leading-with-purpose-in-the-digital-age/#description] The Pre-Mortem Method – Gary Klein, 2021, Psychology Today [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/seeing-what-others-dont/202101/the-pre-mortem-method] Golden Eggs and Hyperbolic Discounting – David Laibson, 1997, Quarterly Journal of Economics (PDF) [https://dash.harvard.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/7312037c-7431-6bd4-e053-0100007fdf3b/content] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

Courageous Leadership as a Daily Practice

In this Re:Thinking podcast episode recorded at Authors@Wharton, Brené joined Adam to dig into her book, Strong Ground. They explore why courage now has to mean being a learner instead of a knower, and why values aren't just what you care about-- they're what you sacrifice for. The conversation moves through the four skill sets of courage, why a value that isn't operationalized into behavior is just a poster with an eagle on it, and how to use the "story I'm making up" framework for hard conversations. They also get into executive presence, vulnerability, care, and why fake courage is easy to spot. Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/strong-ground/] Research – Brené Brown (n.d.). [https://brenebrown.com/the-research/] The discovery of grounded theory – Glaser & Strauss, 1967, Aldine [https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/9781351522168/chapters/10.4324/9780203793206-1] Awareness of dying – Glaser & Strauss, 1965, Aldine [https://api.pageplace.de/preview/DT0400.9781351327916_A30546246/preview-9781351327916_A30546246.pdf] De-tabooing dying control – Thulesius et al., 2013, BMC Palliative Care [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3602181/] Never Split The Difference – Chris Voss, May 24, 2016, TEDx University of Nevada [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjhDkNmtjy0&t=67s] Expectancy Theory (Victor Vroom) – The Decision Lab, (n.d.) [https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/psychology/expectancy-theory] Dare to lead: List of values – Brené Brown, 2018 [https://brenebrown.com/resources/dare-to-lead-list-of-values/] Dare to Lead Hub – Brené Brown [http://brenebrown.com/hubs/dare-to-lead/] Brené Brown brings Dare to Lead program to UT – University of Texas at Austin, 2020, UT News [https://news.utexas.edu/2020/02/04/brene-brown-brings-dare-to-lead-program-to-ut-as-new-visiting-professor-of-management/] Neural processing of narratives – Jääskeläinen et al., 2020, Frontiers in Human Neuroscience [https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.00253/full] The New Rules of Executive Presence – Sylvia Ann Hewlett, Jan-Feb 2024, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2024/01/the-new-rules-of-executive-presence] The Gifts of Imperfection - Your Guide to a Wholehearted Life: 10th Anniversary Collection – Brené Brown, 2010 [https://brenebrown.com/book/the-gifts-of-imperfection/] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

The Highest Performance Strategy is Caring About People ft. Simon Sinek

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant sit down with their first-ever guest, Simon Sinek. Together, they explore the state of organizations globally, including the chaos hitting C-suites, the human cost of misaligned incentives, AI-driven layoffs, and leaders playing defense when they should be playing offense. They dig into what makes teams high-performing, why caring deeply about the people you lead isn't soft but essential, and what the military's culture of love and loyalty teaches us about business. The conversation also moves through nervous system regulation, shame and guilt in parenting and leadership, and what AI can or cannot replace about human connection. This episode is a reminder that the things we've been told to leave out of business, such as love, care, and human connection, may be the most important things we can bring to it. The Old Order Is Dead. Do Not Resuscitate — Sven Beckert, November 4, 2025, The New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/04/opinion/davos-neoliberalism-trump-tariffs.html] A Friedman Doctrine — Milton Friedman, September 13, 1970, The New York Times Magazine [https://www.nytimes.com/1970/09/13/archives/a-friedman-doctrine-the-social-responsibility-of-business-is-to.html] The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America—and How to Undo His Legacy — David Gelles, 2022, Simon & Schuster [https://davidgelles.com/the-man-who-broke-capitalism] ‘Take a simple idea and take it seriously’: Charlie Munger in his own words — Financial Times [https://www.ft.com/content/dbb1dbf4-9f2d-4305-a735-bc6f1424593b?syn-25a6b1a6=1] Jack Dorsey Blamed AI for 4,000 Layoffs. A Former Block Exec Says That’s Not the Real Story — Leila Sheridan, 2026, Inc. [https://www.inc.com/leila-sheridan/jack-dorsey-blamed-ai-for-4000-layoffs-a-former-block-exec-says-thats-not-the-real-story/91312392] Brené Brown on values, vulnerability, and playing to win — Adam Grant, December 22, 2025, Knowledge at Wharton (Interview) [https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/brene-brown-on-values-vulnerability-and-playing-to-win/] Threat-Rigidity Effects in Organizational Behavior: A Multilevel Analysis — Barry M. Staw, 1981, Administrative Science Quarterly [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242540547_Threat_Rigidity_Effects_in_Organizational_Behavior_A_Multilevel_Analysis] Finding our strong ground, part 1 of 6 [w guest Adam Grant] — Brené Brown, September 17, 2025, In Dare to Lead. Vox Media Podcast Network [https://brenebrown.com/podcast/finding-our-strong-ground-part-1-of-6/] Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action — Simon Sinek, 2009, Portfolio/Penguin [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/304046/start-with-why-15th-anniversary-edition-by-simon-sinek/] The mental game of tennis: A scoping review and the introduction of the Resilience Racket Model — Konstantinou, G et al., 2025, Sports [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/391070998_The_Mental_Game_of_Tennis_A_Scoping_Review_and_the_Introduction_of_the_Resilience_Racket_Model] The Inner Game of Tennis — W. Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Random House [https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314] Suppose We Took Groups Seriously… — Harold J. Leavitt, 1975, in Man and Work in Society [https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED103291] Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t — Simon Sinek, 2014, Portfolio/Penguin [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/311389/leaders-eat-last-by-simon-sinek/] Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts — Brené Brown, 2018, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/dare-to-lead/] The Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization — Peter M. Senge, 1990, Doubleday/Currency [https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254] Developing Brave Leaders and Courageous Cultures — Brené Brown, Dare to Lead hub [https://brenebrown.com/hubs/dare-to-lead/] The Infinite Game — Simon Sinek, 2019, Portfolio/Penguin [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/547570/the-infinite-game-by-simon-sinek/] Brené Brown: Focus on guilt instead of shame — 60 Minutes, March 29, 2020, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSrXxqKfYwI&t=1s] Children’s Proneness to Shame and Guilt Predict Risky and Illegal Behaviors in Young Adulthood — Jeffrey Stuewig (lead), 2015, Child Psychiatry and Human Development [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4239200/] The Altruistic Personality: Rescuers of Jews in Nazi Europe — Samuel P. Oliner & Pearl M. Oliner, 1988, Free Press [https://www.amazon.com/Altruistic-Personality-Rescuers-Jews-Europe/dp/0029238293] The Toxic Handler: Organizational Hero—and Casualty — Frost & Robinson, 1999, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/1999/07/the-toxic-handler-organizational-hero-and-casualty] Jensen Huang Says an Incorrect Nine-Year-Old Prediction About AI Shows Why It Won’t Destroy Jobs — CNBC, 2025, CNBC [https://www.cnbc.com/2025/12/04/jensen-huang-cited-radiologists-to-dispute-ai-jobs-impact.html] Relational Job Design and the Motivation to Make a Prosocial Difference — Adam M. Grant, 2007, Academy of Management Review [https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Relational-Job-Design-and-the-Motivation-to-Make-a-Grant/f277b40083905f34ef3a25927c694fded573097c] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]