The Scaffolding with Kelly Deutsch

To Affirm Our Humanity with Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich

QUICK SUMMARY What happens when two Catholics spend a season in interfaith dialogue with 30 guests, including monks, rabbis, professors, a Princeton wrestling champion, and a singer-songwriter rewriting the footnotes of the Greek New Testament? In this season finale, Dave and Fr. John sit down alone to answer that question. They unpack the threads that ran through every conversation, reveal (finally) where the name Religion to Reality comes from, and land on one idea that reframes everything: life is about participation, not orchestration. If you've ever wondered whether other traditions threaten your faith or deepen it, start here. IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE Timestamps are approximate and based on the rough cut — update after final edit. * [02:30] "This season has been all about listening." How an unprompted theme from Season 1's discipleship study became the mission of Season 2. * [05:00] The season by the numbers. 26 episodes, 30 guests, 9 faith traditions, including two former advisors to President Obama and five current or former monastics. * [09:15] "Religion is basically philosophy that involves God" — and why Dave no longer believes that. What the guests revealed about labels, categories, and the colonial origin of the word "Hindu." * [13:00] "Life is about participation, not orchestration." Fr. John on why the guests felt "more human than religious." * [16:00] Is the church only 21 years old? Richard Rohr's second-half-of-life idea, Nostra Aetate, and whether interfaith dialogue is a sign of the church maturing. * [21:00] "It's not about changing things. It's about going deeper in things." * [26:15] The names that kept coming up: Thomas Merton, Thich Nhat Hanh, and Bede Griffiths — and what ties them together. * [29:45] Threads across traditions: the Jesus Prayer, purification rituals, major illness as spiritual turning point, and contemplation as "open awareness." * [34:30] "Catholicism has nothing to say about what a good hike looks like." What Shinto, Daoism, and other traditions taught the hosts about mind-body-spirit integration. * [39:00] "Maybe the Trinity is less to be understood and more to be experienced." What the radical oneness of God in Islam illuminated. * [42:30] The name reveal. Fr. John finally explains how Alexander Schmemann's For the Life of the World gave the show its name and why Christianity, in Schmemann's view, is "a new life, not a new religion." * [48:15] The craft of making this show: the hardest part of interviewing, and why some guests wouldn't talk about their own practice. * [56:15] Can you really listen without agenda? Two guests, AJ Levine and Lauren Fister, challenged the season's central question. Fr. John's answer: learn to hear a person's wounds through what they're saying. * [1:03:00] "You're telling me you just got lucky enough to be born into the true one?" Dave gets personal about a lifelong insecurity and how this project dissolved it. * [1:11:30] Final thoughts: "To affirm our humanity is to affirm our divinity." * [1:13:15] What's next: the Substack, and the free monthly interfaith gathering. MEMORABLE QUOTES "Life is about participation, not orchestration." — Fr. John Gribowich "It's not about changing things. It's about going deeper in things." — Fr. John Gribowich "Maybe the Trinity is less to be understood and more to be experienced." — Dave Plisky "To affirm our humanity is to affirm our divinity. That's incarnational theology 101." — Fr. John Gribowich  ABOUT YOUR HOSTS Dave Plisky is the creator and host of Religion to Reality, the podcast about living an integrated life. The show grew out of a discipleship study Dave led at DeSales Media and across 50 episodes, he has interviewed Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Daoists, Sikhs, and Shinto practitioners about how they actually live their traditions. [Link: website / LinkedIn / Substack] Fr. John Gribowich is a Catholic priest and co-host of Religion to Reality. Drawing on incarnational theology, Fr. John brings a contemplative, Merton-inflected voice to every conversation and a conviction that the Spirit speaks in ways we're not always used to. RESOURCES MENTIONED Books & documents * For the Life of the World by Alexander Schmemann — the book behind the show's name * Dominion by Tom Holland * Nostra Aetate, Second Vatican Council declaration on non-Christian religions * Richard Rohr's "two halves of life" framework (Falling Upward) * Pope St. John Paul II, Theology of the Body * The Thomas Merton Prayer ("My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going…") * The Jesus Prayer

Seeds of the Word with Fr. Cyprian Consiglio

QUICK SUMMARY What if the entire spiritual life came down to breathing in and breathing out? In our penultimate episode, we sit down with Fr. Cyprian Consiglio, Camaldolese monk, musician, and the Vatican's International Secretary General for Monastic Interreligious Dialogue, for a conversation that ranges from Miles Davis to the Quran, from Taoist silence to quantum physics. He even sings for us. If you've ever wondered how interreligious dialogue actually works, or why the next stage of human evolution might be consciousness itself, hit play. IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE * Who are the Camaldolese? The oldest reform within the Benedictine family and their "threefold good", hermitage, monastery, and radical availability to the Spirit. (03:00) * The whole spiritual life in one equation: "The love of God is poured in, and the love of God pours back out… you just have to breathe in and breathe out." (07:00) * Music born from silence: "The sound of the music you make must be better than the quality of the silence you break." How a mentor's words shaped Cyprian's approach to chant, melody, and "singing the building." (11:00) * Setting the Quran to music: why singing sacred texts from other traditions is an act of listening and Cyprian performs his setting of "A Common Word" (Surah 3:64) live. (24:00) * Lectio Divina as an interreligious practice: the four levels of scripture's meaning and how his Rome advisory board will apply the method to Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, and Hindu texts. (28:00) * "Seeds of the Word": the 2nd-century idea behind the Church's modern approach to interreligious dialogue, recognize, preserve, and promote what is good, true, and holy in other religions. (34:00) * Where religions genuinely disagree: "You'll never hear me say it's all the same." The self, time, and why discernment, not blending, is the real work of dialogue. (39:00) * Discovering the silence of God through Buddhism and Taoism and finding it again in his own tradition: "In the beginning was the Tao." (46:00) * Why meditation is hard everywhere — from video screens at the gas pump to the noise of India: "Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good." (51:00) * The next stage of evolution is consciousness: Einstein, the abolition of slavery, and why this question is "not hypothetical, this is life or death." (55:00) * Can AI be conscious? Qualia, the taste of chocolate, and what only humans can preserve. (65:00) * Holy vs. enlightened: Cyprian's parting challenge, a fierce commitment to spiritual practice and reading the Beatitudes every day. (70:00) ABOUT FR. CYPRIAN CONSIGLIO Fr. Cyprian Consiglio is a Camaldolese monk, musician, composer, author, and teacher with dozens of recordings and five books, most recently Epiphanies of Nature and Grace (Orbis Books). After a ten-year term as prior of New Camaldoli Hermitage in Big Sur, California, he is now based in Rome, where he serves as International Secretary General for Monastic Interreligious Dialogue. * Books: * Epiphanies of Nature and Grace [https://orbisbooks.com/] * Prayer in the Cave of the Heart: The Universal Call to Contemplation MEMORABLE QUOTE "Artificial intelligence will never know the taste of chocolate, will never know the smell of a rose, will never know the sentiment of love I have for my son, and will never have the unitive experience with the divine." — Federico Faggin, as quoted by Fr. Cyprian Consiglio RESOURCES MENTIONED Sacred texts & Church documents * Quran.com [https://quran.com/] — the beautifully designed Quran resource Dave raves about * "A Common Word Between Us and You" [https://www.acommonword.com/] — the 2007 open letter from Islamic scholars (Surah 3:64) * Nostra Aetate [https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html] — Vatican II declaration on non-Christian religions * Fides et Ratio [https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091998_fides-et-ratio.html] — encyclical of Pope John Paul II * Dominus Iesus [https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html] (2000) * The Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Dhammapada

The Scaffolding with Kelly Deutsch

QUICK SUMMARY What happens when the faith container you grew up in no longer fits and you don't want to abandon it? Former nun turned "spiritual wilderness guide" Kelly Deutsch joins Dave and Fr. John to explore the second half of life spirituality: the shift from certainty and security toward mystery, wholeness, and a wilder encounter with God. Kelly shares how 18 months of bedridden illness dismantled her identity, why practices are scaffolding rather than the point, and how guilt can be an invitation into deeper spiritual growth. IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE [00:03] Cold open — "Find the way that you connect with the divine… and that is your path." [01:00] What is "second half of life" spirituality? Dave frames the three responses to a spiritual dilemma: batten down the hatches, throw out the container, or blossom beyond it. [06:30] Kelly's story: an "audacious heart." Meditating an hour a day at 17, discovering Ignatian prayer, and joining a religious community in Rome devoted to spiritual formation. [09:00] The turning point. A sudden, severe illness leaves Kelly bedridden for 18 months and dismantles the three big things: identity, purpose, and community. [12:30] The origins of Spiritual Wanderlust. From a Rome term paper on Augustine and John of the Cross to a book, then a contemplative formation platform with year-long programs like the Women Mystic School, Celtic Spirituality, 20th Century Mystics, and this year's Night School. [16:30] Who shows up — and why. The two hungers Kelly sees in seekers everywhere: depth and community. [24:00] First half vs. second half of life. Building the ego's identity, grasping for certainty and security, until great suffering "dropkicks" us into openness to mystery. [26:30] Religious suburbia vs. the Yukon. Kelly's signature analogy: leaving the HOA-approved color palettes of prescriptive religion for a wilderness that's both gorgeous and terrifying and learning to read your inner compass there. [29:00] "Nothing and everything." How Kelly's Catholicism has changed: dwelling at the mystical heart of Christianity, theosis through kenosis, and why holiness is simply doing the will of God. [35:30] Practices are scaffolding, not the point. Why rote prayer can insulate us from the wildness of God, and how to "catch the breeze" of the Spirit wherever it blows — Lectio Divina, nature, music, or conversation. [40:00] Like-minded vs. different-minded community. The relief of finding fellow "spiritual weirdos," the danger of echo chambers, and why niceness isn't the virtue — kindness is. [46:00] Mothers, guilt, and grace. Why guilt is an indicator worth examining, how parenting confronts us with powerlessness, and why feeling like a hot mess is often exactly where the spiritual path leads. [55:30] Spiritual direction, done holistically. Bringing the body into direction, using Internal Family Systems ("parts work") to untangle the inner life, and honoring John of the Cross's "I know not what." [59:30] Listening without agenda. Dropping "quidgestions," holding a sacred container, and trusting that the second half of life isn't a problem to be fixed. [1:01:30] Where to find Kelly + a look ahead to next episode's guest, Fr. Cyprian Consiglio. ABOUT KELLY DEUTSCH Kelly Deutsch is a spiritual director, teacher, and founder of Spiritual Wanderlust, a platform for contemplative formation and inner transformation. A former nun, she brings 20+ years of experience at the intersection of mysticism, psychology, and embodied spirituality. After a severe illness left her bedridden for over a year, Kelly found guidance in the mystics and now helps seekers experience spirituality as something lived, not just believed. Connect with Kelly: * Website: spiritualwanderlust.org [https://spiritualwanderlust.org] * Courses: school.spiritualwanderlust.org [https://school.spiritualwanderlust.org] * Free mini-course on mysticism: mysticismcourse.com [https://mysticismcourse.com] * Free annual Contemplative Summit (30+ speakers, 4 days, online): contemplativesummit.com [https://contemplativesummit.com] * Kelly's podcast: Spiritual Wanderlust [https://www.spiritualwanderlust.org/podcast] MEMORABLE QUOTES "Whether you can meditate, or whether you connect with God through nature or music or movement — find the way that you connect with the divine, and that you feel invited to connect with the divine. That is your path." — Kelly Deutsch Also quotable: "Niceness isn't the virtue — kindness is." / "Feeling like a hot mess is often a really good place to be." RESOURCES MENTIONED * Falling Upward by Richard Rohr — Dave's top recommendation for going deeper into second half of life spirituality (affiliate/link) * The Interior Castle by Teresa of Ávila (link) * Ignatian meditation (imaginative prayer) (link to primer) * Internal Family Systems / "parts work" (link) * Center for Spiritual Imagination — Adam Bucko (link) * Center for Action and Contemplation — Richard Rohr (link) * Mystics referenced: John of the Cross, Francis de Sales, Thomas Keating, Thomas Merton, Thich Nhat Hanh, Simone Weil, Mother Maria Skobtsova, Howard Thurman * Previous episode: Elizabeth Schrader Polczer on Mary Magdalene and the Gospel of John (link) * Next episode: Fr. Cyprian Consiglio, Camaldolese monk and interreligious dialogue leader (subscribe so you don't miss it)

The Wounded Word with Elizabeth Schrader Polczer

QUICK SUMMARY What if one of the most important women in the Gospels was quietly edited out of the story? New Testament scholar Dr. Elizabeth Schrader Polczer (Villanova University) joins Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich to share how a prayer in a Brooklyn garden, and a pop song, led her from a singer-songwriter career to a discovery in the world's oldest copy of the Gospel of John: the name "Mary" crossed out and changed to "Martha." Her peer-reviewed research is now changing the footnotes of the Greek text behind your Bible. Listen in. This one left Fr. John legitimately amazed. IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE [00:02:00] — From singer-songwriter to New Testament scholar. Elizabeth traces her spiritual journey from the Episcopal Church through Eastern meditation, and the prayer in a Brooklyn garden that changed everything: "Maybe you should talk to Mary Magdalene about that." [00:07:00] — Down the world's deepest rabbit hole. A trip to the Brooklyn Public Library, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Mary Magdalene, and a lay person's hunch: had the text of John's Gospel been changed? [00:10:00] — The discovery in Papyrus 66. Looking at the world's oldest copy of John (c. 200 AD), Elizabeth spots it in John 11: "the name Mary has been crossed out and changed to Martha." [00:13:00] — "You have to stop harassing these scholars. You have to go get a degree." When no one follows up on the 50-year-old findings, Elizabeth learns Greek, earns her MA, and publishes her thesis in the Harvard Theological Review, research that will now be reflected in the footnotes of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, the critical text from which modern Bibles are translated. [00:18:00] — Why Martha matters. The Christological confession: in the Synoptics it's Peter who declares Jesus the Messiah, but in John it's a woman. If that woman is Mary, possibly Mary Magdalene, she becomes a direct counterpart to Peter. [00:19:00] — The mirror between John 11 and John 20. The parallels linking Lazarus's sister Mary and Mary Magdalene: the same question ("Where have you laid him?"), the rare word sudarion, a weeping Mary at a tomb watching someone she loves rise. [00:23:00] — How (and why) a second-century editor might have done it. One letter separates Maria from Martha in Greek and adding Martha would mean "no woman can be seen as having too much authority." [00:30:00] — How the research strengthened her faith. Elizabeth's stunning reflection on John 11:4 and the "wounded Word": "Just as Jesus's body was wounded... this text is wounded, and the Word itself carries its wounds in its body for us." [00:36:00] — What do we actually know about Mary Magdalene after the resurrection? Legends of the South of France, the red egg of Eastern Orthodox tradition, and what the fragmentary Gospel of Mary does (and doesn't) tell us. [00:40:00] — Mary Magdalene on screen. The Last Temptation of Christ, The Chosen, and how Pope Gregory's sermon in 591 AD, not Scripture, turned Mary Magdalene into a prostitute in the popular imagination. [00:45:00] — A Protestant at a Catholic university. Life at Villanova, ecumenical dialogue, and why Elizabeth says her work argues for the inspiration of Scripture: "John is bigger than we've given it credit for." [00:54:00] — Listening without agenda. Elizabeth's answer to this season's signature question: "The thing you most need to hear is hidden in the person who you immediately dismiss as other."   ABOUT DR. ELIZABETH SCHRADER POLCZER Dr. Elizabeth Schrader Polczer is Assistant Professor of New Testament at Villanova University. She earned her PhD in Early Christianity and New Testament from Duke University in 2023, specializing in textual criticism, Mary Magdalene, and the Gospel of John. A former singer-songwriter, her master's thesis was published in the Harvard Theological Review and is taught in seminaries nationwide. Her first book, An Abundant Bouquet: Narrative Variants in the Gospels, is forthcoming from SBL Press. MEMORABLE QUOTE "Just as Jesus's body was wounded, he carries his wounds — this text is wounded, and the Word itself carries its wounds in its body for us." — Elizabeth Schrader Polczer RESOURCES MENTIONED * Papyrus 66 — the world's oldest substantial copy of the Gospel of John (c. 200 AD) * Johannes.com [http://iohannes.com] — University of Birmingham's transcriptions of 100+ manuscripts of John * Elizabeth's master's thesis in the Harvard Theological Review (2017) — [INSERT LINK] * Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament — the critical text behind modern Bible translations * An Abundant Bouquet: Narrative Variants in the Gospels — Elizabeth's forthcoming book (SBL Press) * The Oxford Handbook of Mary Magdalene — featuring Elizabeth's chapter on Patristics * Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 5577 (published 2023) — possible new fragment of the Gospel of Mary * The Gospel of Mary and other extracanonical texts (Gospel of Philip, Gospel of Thomas) * Raymond Brown's commentary on John * Films & shows discussed: The Last Temptation of Christ (dir. Martin Scorsese), The Chosen

The Way of the Kami with Rev. Ann Evans & Rev. Taishi Kato

QUICK SUMMARY Shinto has no dogma, no scripture, and no conversion, so what is it? In this episode, we sit down with two Shinto priests. Rev. Ann Evans, one of the few Shinto priests in North America and a certified forest therapy guide, describes the moment a gravel walkway lined with towering cedars felt like home, chants a purification prayer for us, and explains why forest bathing is her “side door to Shinto.” Then Rev. Taishi Kato, heir to a 1,000-year-old shrine in Japan, reveals why the most important practice of a Shinto priest is sweeping leaves. IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE * [00:00] Cold open: “It was an incredibly spiritual experience for me, and it just was home” * [00:30] Dave and Fr. John introduce the Shinto episode, the traditional religion of Japan, with two priests as guests * [01:30] Meet Rev. Ann Evans: Shinto priest, ANFT-certified forest therapy guide, and author of Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers * [03:00] Ann’s story: a Presbyterian upbringing in Pasadena, a Japanese exchange student, and the shrine ceremonies that moved her before she understood them * [05:00] The walk that changed everything: approaching Tsubaki Grand Shrine through towering cedars — “it just was home” * [06:30] Shinto and her Christian heritage: from “is this true?” to “it just is”,  no dogma, no scripture, no conversion * [09:00] What is Shinto? The way of the kami, and why humans are innately pure and innately bright * [11:30] Misogi: cold-water purification in waterfalls, rivers, and the ocean, and why cold condenses spiritual energy * [14:00] Translating kami for the West: angels, saints, and loosening up our language * [16:00] Fr. John’s observation: misogi sounds baptismal, ritual, archetypal, and what incense and cold water share * [19:30] Life at the shrine: daily offerings of rice, water, sake, and salt; morning prayer; and ceremonies from baby blessings to business success * [22:00] Ann chants the Harai no kotoba, the prayer of purification, in Japanese, then translates it * [24:30] Why prayers stay in Japanese: kotodama, the belief that the sound of a word carries a soul * [26:30] No evangelists here: from ancient Ko-Shinto in the forests to Shrine Shinto, and Rev. Yukitaka Yamamoto’s vision of bringing Shinto to America in 1987 * [30:30] Miyazaki, Totoro, and the Kodama: what Ghibli films get right, and why Shinto must be experienced before it’s understood * [32:30] The torii gate: crossing from the secular to the sacred, plus the shimenawa rope and zigzag shide * [33:30] Heaven as “the high plain”: the unseen world, 50 days of prayer for the departed, and gratitude for ancestors who can still see us * [36:00] Forest bathing (shinrin-yoku) explained: “the forest is the therapist, and the guide opens the door” * [41:00] Why forest bathing isn’t a hike: covering an eighth of a mile in three hours, and what changes when you let yourself be led * [43:00] Chapters of a spiritual life: how Ann’s practice has evolved from young children to young grandchildren * [45:30] Listening without agenda: holding a space people are welcome to step into or not * [46:30] Where to find Ann: Matsuri Foundation of Canada, and the true meaning of “matsuri”, two hands offering a branch in gratitude * [48:30] Meet Rev. Taishi Kato: eldest son of a family that has served their 1,000-year-old shrine for generations * [50:30] Why 70–80% of Japanese people visit a shrine on New Year’s Day * [51:30] The most important practice of a Shinto priest: cleaning the shrine grounds * [53:00] Why it would be easier to cut down the 400-year-old trees and why sweeping their leaves is the point * [54:00] Dave’s closing reflection: there are no shortcuts in the spiritual journey, and what our traditions prepare us for * [55:00] Next episode preview: Elizabeth Schrader Polczer on the Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene MEMORABLE QUOTES “I was standing on this long gravel walkway with these huge towering cedar trees all around me, and it was an incredibly spiritual experience for me, and it just was home.”  — Rev. Ann Evans “In Shinto, we don’t become Shinto. You don’t get converted to Shinto. It’s like Shinto just exists.”  — Rev. Ann Evans “The forest is the therapist, and the guide opens the door.”  — Rev. Ann Evans “The most important practice for a Shinto priest is to keep cleaning the grounds.”  — Rev. Taishi Kato ABOUT ANN EVANS Ann Evans is a Shinto priest and ANFT-certified forest therapy guide and an author and spiritual teacher whose work explores the relationship between humans, spirituality, and nature. She is the founder and director of the Matsuri Foundation of Canada, which operates Shinmei Spiritual Centre in British Columbia, a branch shrine of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Mie Prefecture, Japan, one of the most important shrines in the Shinto tradition, with a history spanning more than 2,000 years. Ann has been instrumental in establishing one of the few Shinto shrines in North America and is the author of Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers, an English-language collection introducing readers to Shinto prayer and ritual practice. Connect with Ann: matsuri.ca ABOUT REV. TAISHI KATO Taishi Kato is a Shinto priest at Hattori Tenjingu Shrine in Japan, born the eldest son of a multi-generational family serving their 1,000-year-old shrine. He holds a Master of Arts in Religions of Asia and Africa from SOAS, University of London, and is committed to introducing Shinto to people around the world. He represented Shinto at the Religions for Peace 10th World Assembly, represented Japanese religious leaders at the G20 Religion Summit in Indonesia in 2022, co-produced an illustrated book of “Shinto moments” with two American collaborators, and in 2023 published The COVID Pandemic and the World’s Religions. RESOURCES MENTIONED * Matsuri Foundation of Canada / Shinmei Spiritual Centre: matsuri.ca * Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers by Ann Llewellyn Evans * Tsubaki Grand Shrine, Mie Prefecture, Japan — and Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America, founded in Stockton, California in 1987 * Association of Nature and Forest Therapy (ANFT) — Ann’s forest therapy certification * Hattori Tenjingu Shrine — where Rev. Taishi Kato serves * Studio Ghibli films mentioned: My Neighbor Totoro, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke * Writers referenced: Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell on ritual and archetype * Previous episode: Nikky Singh on Sikhism * Next episode: Elizabeth Schrader Polczer on the Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene