Nick Bodor on Strangers & Institutions

Nick Bodor on Strangers & Institutions

Nick Bodor [https://www.curbed.com/2022/11/baker-falls-opening-east-village-pyramid-club.html] is the founder and owner of Baker Falls [https://www.instagram.com/bakerfalls/], a live music venue and bar at 196 Allen Street on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. He previously created some of the East Village’s most influential independent spots — Alt Coffee, Library Bar, and Cake Shop, which booked early shows by MGMT, Vampire Weekend, and the Strokes. A first-generation Hungarian-American from rural Connecticut, he’s spent 30 years building communal spaces in downtown New York where emerging bands, downtown clowns, and anti-folk musicians find a home. Nick is building the kinds of spaces we need. This piece makes the case we should be subsidizing this kind of social infrastructure: “Why ‘Cost Disease’ is The Secret Froce Behind America’s Toxic Solitude [https://www.derekthompson.org/p/why-cost-disease-is-the-secret-force]:’ There is a strong economic argument for subsidizing health care, education, and even child care. But should we also subsidize sit-down restaurants? Bowling alleys and the local dive bar? Coachella! Of course, I’m joking about Coachella. (Kind of.) But my serious point is that if solitude has a social cost, it’s not crazy to think that local, state, and federal governments should be thinking about creative ways to make it cheaper to hang out. Some policy solutions would be familiar, such as local governments providing more public pools and community spaces. Others might sound a little odd, like making pro-social businesses, such as restaurants, qualify for tax-deductible donations, the same way that Puccini fans can write checks to their favorite opera house. Cost disease is real, and it has a known cure. Today we’re seeing that one price of a successful economy is the rise of anti-social businesses. But if we want our rising living standards to include friendships and shared experiences—and not just a nation of couch potatoes scrolling on their phones for 10 hours a day—then we’ll need to choose our social future. And pay for it. So I start all these conversations with the same question, which I borrowed from a friend of mine. I use it in all my conversations because I haven’t found a better way of getting into one of these conversations out of the blue. And it’s a big question. So I over explain it the way that I’m doing now. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you’re in absolute control and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? Yeah, it’s interesting because it is so open-ended. Where do I come from geographically? Where do I come from on my parents’ side that was somewhat formative? And full disclosure, it’s this funny thing that as... I basically came to New York City in the early 90s and I’d been hanging out there since the 80s. And I opened this coffee shop on Avenue A in 1995 across from Tompkins. And everybody was like, hey, Nick, where are you from? What do you do? Well, it was such a what I call exploratory question for people you don’t know. So with the backstory of I opened this coffee shop when I was 27, I think 27 years old. And it was just me and a business partner. We weren’t well funded. It was this very back in the day, we call it do it yourself, DIY coffee house that happened to have internet access. So we were very early internet cafe, but we wanted to be the cool internet cafe. I always called it an online coffee house, not a cyber cafe, which we were opening up at the time. So when people asked me that question, I was very gun shy because I was very proud and I had worked since I was 13 years old, working in restaurants and having coked out chefs throw pots at me, but then bring me under their wing and mentor me. To answer the question where I’m from in that environment was I was like, I’m in New York. I’m a New Yorker. And that doesn’t fly. To answer the question realistically, I think this will be me almost coming to terms with it is I’m from Connecticut. And when you say in 1990s East Village, Avenue A, gritty rock and roll and cool alternative culture, you’re from Connecticut. Everybody just thinks you’re from Westport or Greenwich and you’re a rich kid. Especially being a younger person that opened a coffee shop. Everybody would just assume you’re a rich kid if you say you’re from Connecticut. So I always had this chip on my shoulder about answering that question. But ultimately, it formed me and it formed a lot of what I’m doing now in 2026, many decades later, 30 years later. Yeah, so the way I explain it is not being from Westport or Greenwich. But from an area that’s much more rural. People don’t realize that Connecticut has rural populations like Easton and Georgetown. Where I’m from had literally an abandoned wire mill in the town, and my road was called Old Farm Road. So I grew up thinking everybody had a backyard with woods and an abandoned farmhouse that you could just walk across two neighbors’ yards and be in this giant field that was abandoned and fly kites and make model rockets that we would shoot off and just be young kids in the 70s and 80s. Your parents just said see you for dinner time and you just roamed around. And I thought everybody could kick in the door of an abandoned farm outbuilding and fall through the staircase with rusty nails and everything. Super lucky we didn’t get killed. But that formed a lot of an aesthetic of the woods and abandoned buildings and just exploring and just walking around. And that transferred into New York City, which was a choice that I made to move because I was inspired by the East Village and Lower East Side when I was part of my growing up where I’m from. I’m first generation. My father escaped in a revolution in Hungary in 1956 and came to Bridgeport, Connecticut, which is a factory town. And the Upper East Side had a Hungarian enclave. And the other one was in Youngstown, Ohio, which Jim Jarmusch made a movie about called Strangers in Paradise about Hungarians, New York, Hungary, downtown Hungarians going to a Hungarian enclave in Ohio. All of that formed a lot of what I’m doing these days. And I started working in a restaurant when I was 13 called the Georgetown Saloon. That was where all the working folk, all the working people hung out. But it was also, there was some people that had some money. But it really was the place where people had Harleys and they cut the lawns for the rich people and had really successful landscaping businesses. But they drove Harleys and wore leather vests and stuff. Honky tonk in the middle of everything. So that’s where I’m from. A lot of it, that restaurant, the Georgetown Saloon formed me because there was always one of the owners in the kitchen, one of the owners on the floor, one of the owners behind the bar. And I worked for them for 10 years and they really brought me up. And when I was 18, I said, by the time I’m 28, I want to open a restaurant. I put myself long-term goal there that again is all where I’m from. And if I didn’t have that job at Georgetown Saloon, I probably wouldn’t have been inspired to do my own thing. I probably would have tried to get an office job or something that was the norm if you could make it happen. That really influenced where I’m from. And put me in a position to open. I started getting really into coffee culture when I moved to New York and what I would call a coffee house versus cafe. I was romanticizing 1950s beatnik Greenwich Village coffee houses, but then I would travel to Montreal and I loved the coffee house scene there. And so when I moved to New York, 1992, I was 21 at the time and I got into the coffee business and I was like, oh, I don’t need to open a restaurant when I’m 28. I could open a coffee shop. And so I was able to put myself in a position there where we opened up Alt Coffee when I was 27. But I don’t know if that’s a long answer to that first question or if I should break to let you ask me a question. No, I mean, the answers have their own, they come to their own end. I mean, it’s beautiful. But I do want to go back, because the next question I often ask is, as a kid, maybe before you got that job at the Georgetown Saloon, as a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? Do you have a recollection of what young Nick wanted to be when he grew up? Well, yeah, that again, it’s where are you from and what are the dates? And I was born the day they landed on the moon, is what I say. So this is also what I love about me being totally frank and honest, because I used to make up backstories for myself and that was such an interesting time. Where you can just make s**t up about your background and there wasn’t the internet to fact check, right? So I thought the Ramones were all brothers. You didn’t fact check it. So I’ve put bits and pieces of things out there, especially being in the cafe business and the bar business where I’m chatty, it’s hospitality. I love talking to various people. I’ve made some s**t up. I’ve dropped some exaggerations. So I always say I was born the day they landed on the moon, July 17th, 1969. But I have to be careful, because if people know, they actually landed on the moon on the 19th, and I was born when they were in space. Because people don’t always realize — other than now we’ve been back to the moon this year, which is coincidental — people know it takes multiple days. So I was technically born while they were on their way to the moon, but I always say I was born the day they landed on the moon. Apollo 11 landed on the moon. So I always wanted to be an astronaut. I’ve always been fascinated by space. I was a sci-fi kid. Star Wars, I was eight years old when Star Wars came out. That was hugely influential. So yeah, I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid, for sure. It’s amazing. I’m really connecting with, well what a choice to make that choice to say the day that they landed on the moon as opposed to being in the moon. Where does that come from, do you think, that instinct? I think again, it’s exploratory questions or chit chatting with strangers. It’s just much easier to say you were born and it sounds cool to be honest. It sounds cooler. I was born the day they landed on the moon. Then, they were in flight. It took them three days to get to the moon. They actually landed on the 19th, but then when a friend would be like, you were born on July. I would say I was born on the day they landed on the moon. Let’s say 20 years ago, they’re like, you were born on July 19th. I’m no, I was actually born on July 17th. So that was just so interesting being caught on it. It was really just easier and I felt more, again, it’s like, hey, it just sounds great. I was born in the day landing on the moon. And how did you, I’m curious about that job at the Georgetown Saloon, because it sounds so formative. How did you get that job? What would that have must have been like as a first? Yeah. So, literally 13, 14. My old man, again, very old world, very Eastern European, taught us a good work ethic. He literally escaped from the bottom of a truck in a revolution and hid and made his way to Germany. And he didn’t talk about it at that time, but he was really scrappy and very cheap, even though he worked hard and built up a good life. So we didn’t really have an allowance or pocket money, and we did tons of chores around the house. He was the guy that would lay his own concrete, and we thought every kid had a concrete mixer at home and would help your dad mix up concrete. But we never got paid for it. So a buddy of mine had a job as a dishwasher and he was getting paid — probably two fifty, three dollars an hour maybe. Before that, I had been raking leaves for neighbors and cutting grass. And the raking leaves, I remember it was so formative because I would literally be raking leaves for an hour, let’s say two hours, two fifty an hour, so for five bucks, and I would have blisters from raking leaves. And that was formative, but also God, this sucks to do this work for two dollars. A dishwasher, five an hour — let’s do that. Because a friend of mine had been working there and it was literally in walking distance. It was rural, but this saloon was in walking distance. It was a long walk, but walking distance to my house. I could ride my bike down there. And it was because my friend had the job. His dad was also, he was first generation, but his parents were actually South African and English. But he basically got me the job. And around that time in high school, a little later, more like 15, 16, other friends of mine had restaurant jobs. And it was a good way to have your own money and buy records and come into the city and go to CBGBs and everything. That was all because I had my own money. As a young 14, 15, versus having to ask my parents for it. Yeah. And what would you go into the city for? What was that scene you mentioned CBGBs? What stories can you tell? Yep. Yeah. So I was a pretty good high school student. And so I was allowed to just hop on a train, at that time it was probably five, six dollars. And an hour, an hour and a half later, you’re in Grand Central Station walking downtown. I used to always just walk down to Washington Square Park and see what was going on. And then I started getting a little bolder and heading over to Avenue A. And First Avenue was always the line back then. And as I got a little older, I’d get more, Avenue A and Avenue B. And I would just walk around the city, sometimes with a friend, sometimes alone, and just walk 80 blocks — well, it was 40 blocks downtown, then east and west, south and north. It was easy to get your bearings and just explore around. We would just walk around, hang out in the parks, do the stuff you do as a teenager. CBGB’s had all ages shows, and I never really had a fake ID, so it was all ages shows. Then when I got to be a little older, maybe you wouldn’t get carded back then as much. Around 17, 18, 19, I really started going out and going to coffee shops and going to bars if I could, or getting a drink if I could, or getting a 40 ounce from the bodega and going to the park, which was the thing to do. But yeah, it was a lot of wandering aimlessly. And then when you discovered cool spots, you would bring a friend there — you got to check this spot out. And for me, a lot of it was going to whatever shows were all ages and rock and roll, indie rock, alternative places where it all resonated with me. And at record stores too, that was the other thing. I would go to a record store, that’s how I discovered, I mean, bands fall in and out of fashion, but I had a Beastie Boys seven inch before they had a record out because I would just be in a record store on Bleecker Street or something and the clerk would be playing and I’d be like, oh, who’s this? It’s Cookie Puss by Beastie Boys, a 12 inch remix. Yeah, that was a really cool part of it too. So catch us up, where are you now and what is the work that you do? How do you describe what you do and what you’re up to? Yeah, I mean, I had this long-term goal — I want to open a coffee house, I want to be part of coffee culture. And good coffee was just coming to New York at that time. Everything was bodega coffee, there was no Starbucks. There were the Italian espressos in Greenwich Village. And this guy Gene had a place called the Bean Bar that was an independent coffee shop. And he was opening one on the Upper East Side. He’s like, I want you to come, I’ll teach you the business, and you can be the night manager on the Upper East Side. And I was living downtown — I had my first apartment, a railroad. I hate to be the back in the day guy, but I probably couldn’t have done what I’m doing now if I didn’t have a railroad apartment on East 13th Street with four other guys. The shared room was the kitchen, and people had to walk through my room to get to the exit. A typical railroad, but it was cheap and it allowed me to get into the coffee business and go to shows. Basically, once I felt I had learned enough of the business, I found this abandoned dentist office that had been vacant for 14 years on Avenue A. I had staggered out of Doc Holliday’s, the honky tonk, and there was a handwritten for rent sign on the window of the space. I had never noticed it before because it looked like an apartment on street level, but it hadn’t been anything. And we wound up being able to just go to the lumber yard that used to be on 14th and buy wood and build a counter. And so we opened in 1995 — Alt.coffee, an internet cafe with a T1 line when people had 28K dial up modems. But we were the funky one. We would just find couches on the street. There were no bed bugs in New York City at that time. Coffee, computers, and comfy chairs was our tagline, and the comfy chairs were wingback chairs we’d find from a dead 80-something in one of the tenements. We would just find all this cool old furniture, and we had fuzzy lamps with baubles hanging down. That was our shtick. And you could smoke in cafes. We didn’t even have a beer and wine license and we were open till 2, 3 a.m. just doing coffee and computers. It was really a very cool time. And I was a drunk. So I was like, I should get in the bar business. And so in 1998, three years after Alt, I open Library Bar on Avenue A, which is a rock and roll dive bar that I loved. I loved places like Downtown Beirut and all these little spots — Z Bar and all these places that I used to go to in the East Village. No Tell Motel. I mean, there’s so many. Brownies was very influential as a live music venue. There were just all these amazing rock and roll bars with jukeboxes. And I was like, someday I’ll have the best jukebox in New York City. And I would write down on a napkin oh, I got to put the Tom Waits in there. I never see Tom Waits in a jukebox, or all this stuff. Then we open the Library Bar in 98. The next year when people actually read The Village Voice, we got voted best jukebox in New York City. I was like, that’s it, my career is over. That’s all I ever wanted to do. And then I always thought of myself as curating this 99 slot jukebox that, it’s funny about Tom Waits, because I was so excited to have him in there. And the first time he came on on a mellow, we were open noon to four, seven days a week, no food, just a watering hole. First time Tom Waits came out on a Sunday afternoon, we’re all freaking out, this is so great. Then it comes on on a bumping, loud Friday night, high energy, just brought the whole room down. I was like, Tom Waits has to come off the jukebox. And it formulated this: what sounds good at 2 p.m. and what sounds good at 2 a.m. And curating this 99 slot jukebox is something that I just took a lot of pleasure in and I know it brought a lot of pleasure to a lot of different types of people. And that was so exciting. That really fired me up and we did that for many years. And then in 2005, I was like, well, I’d love to open a venue. There’s all these great venues that I love that have great bands that I haven’t heard of. I’ll go to see three bands and discover two new ones. I might go for the headline and discover two bands I’ve never heard of that are amazing and that was the mid aughts which was a good time for new bands in New York City. Basically, we opened Cake Shop as a record store, cafe, taking what we knew from the cafe business and the bar business at Library and opened a place that became a real communal hub because of the cafe and the record store upstairs and the music venue was downstairs. So if you wanted to pay the cover to go downstairs and see early shows by MGMT and Vampire Weekend, we booked their first shows, or you could hang out upstairs. It was accidental, but the social interaction and the community building was just so rewarding. So amazing. We were there for 15 years. I didn’t think we had to close before COVID because our model didn’t work 15 years later where we needed cheap rent and either we raised our prices and everything was breaking down at the same time. The HVAC units are expensive. Insurance went up. Con Ed went up. So we decided we closed. To me, it seems two years ago, but it was actually quite a bit longer. So it was 2005 till 2019, so 14 years. But I never thought I’d be able to do a venue again in Manhattan, which is my neighborhood. East Village is my neighborhood. It’s where I moved, it’s where I got the first railroad apartment. That’s home. Brooklyn didn’t feel home to me. Everyone’s open in Brooklyn, open in Brooklyn. I’m like, I don’t know. We wound up opening a short-lived place called Brewer Falls in Williamsburg that I had a bad partnership and it just soured me even further, but I was like, okay, I just never thought I’d be able to open again in the East Village. And then after COVID hit, the Pyramid Club, which was a legendary club back in the day that hadn’t been very relevant, was available. And I was like, who owns this? And I did all this detective work. Who owns the Pyramid? Because it was a very mysterious thing. And I was able, long story short, to partner up with the Knitting Factory and get the space at 101 Avenue A. And I thought, my god, this will be great. But the layout was so different from Cake Shop. I wanted to bring it back because it hadn’t really been relevant. It was just this place where you’d go dance to an 80s themed dance party in the 2000s, and that was it. It wasn’t where Nirvana’s first show on the East Coast was, which is what Pyramid was. And also RuPaul lived in the basement when she moved to New York because she was in a band called Wee Wee Hole, a punk band. The manager of Pyramid was like, “Hey, Rue, you don’t have to go back to Atlanta, Georgia with Wee Wee Hole. Come live in the basement.” And she was so inspired by that community there that she became RuPaul. And that’s what I wanted was the rockers hanging out. When I was coming up, it was Don Hills and everybody in the Pyramid Club, everybody straight LGBTQ, whatever, everybody all hung out together with no judgments. And that’s what the coffee shop was. That’s what Cake Shop was. I missed that. And Pyramid Club — I was too concerned with trying to preserve the history, that it didn’t really have its own identity as Baker Falls, which is what we had called it. And I had developed this idea of this decrepit manor house in the woods vibe in the downstairs lounge, the second bar downstairs that I called the Fever Dream. That really was the Baker Falls vibe — this decrepit manor house in the woods, part Grey Gardens, but also this weird town, part Twin Peaks. I wanted Baker Falls to be this whole thing, and that’s something I haven’t had the bandwidth to develop. But of course that was all Old Farm Road and growing up with these abandoned buildings — how fascinating that would be in a city environment. So when we wound up parting ways with Knitting Factory and at the same time, the Rockwood Music Hall space became available. So I was able to immediately move Baker Falls into that space, which was much more conducive. I call it wood, glass, and iron. It has wood all over it, these iron. It’s got an iron mezzanine and it’s glass. And we could really trick it out with our decrepit town, weirdo oddball who lives in Baker Falls, who’s our kin, who’s a resident, who are nomads passing through Baker Falls. We could really execute that concept at Baker Falls. So now we’re at 192 Allen Street right on, I call it the borderlands of the East Village, Lower East Side. But it’s a struggle because it’s a beast and we were underfunded. I just wanted to get open so bad and I really believed that it would all come together and instead what’s going on is we’re underfunded and struggling. But people love it, so we’ll keep it going. Yeah, that’s beautiful. I had an experience there. That’s when we met. We met at the Breakfast Club in Brooklyn through Bendits and happened to be in the city and experienced, I think, is it the clown night? Yeah, yeah, Idiot’s Hour. I’d seen this scene bubble up in back room, back rock bars — Cobra Club and these back venues — and I was seeing this avant-garde, modern clowning, but also traditional. Very smart but very silly. These are fucked up times, let’s laugh about it. And sometimes heavy. It was just such a great scene. I was like, okay, we’ve got to be the Manhattan home for the downtown — I just started calling it the downtown clown scene, but Matthew and Ryan, who are the hosts, they call it Idiot’s Hour. But it was floating around in these back spaces of Bushwick. And I’m like, no, let’s make it the downtown clown home. So week one since we opened Baker Falls in January last year, 2024, every Wednesday we’ve been fostering and encouraging and exposing new people to this really amazing scene of avant clowning. And I’m so happy. I just feel I’m very proud that we identified it, was able to execute it and give it a home. So that’s been super rewarding. And in general, Baker Falls is known as, I get emerging bands, Indie Rock Club, the way Cake Shop’s booking style with the addition of the Downtown Clowns. And we wanted to bring back the anti-folk scene, which had started in the East Village. It’s this sub-genre where Moldy Peaches came out of and Beck would, Jeffrey Lewis and all these people came out of this open mic where Beck would come to town and be influenced his whole sound. So we’re like, we’ve got to bring back anti-folk. So we do that every Monday as well. We’ve done these residencies since day one on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. And the other one is we had this friend and artist that we really liked, Torture the Desert Spiders. She was actually one of my ticket people at Baker Falls at 101 Avenue A. She grew up — her mom was a long time door person and booker at Mercury Lounge — and she grew up in it the same way my 22 year old son grew up in it. And I wanted to bring back this idea of, man, the Strokes before anybody knew them would be at Mercury Lounge for a six week residency, and we’d be at the Library Bar like, oh, we should go see that band, the Strokes, next week — and we just never went that six weeks. We tapped Torture to be our first resident because she’s so talented. She loved it so much, had so many great friends, that we’ve been doing that for 65 weeks now as well. And it’s this great thing where bands that can play at Bowery Ballroom and much bigger venues do stripped down sets with us every Tuesday. So that’s another thing. There was a while where I was like, can we keep open? And it’s very well publicized that we could close any day. But because of stuff like this — these residencies are important to people — it really makes us keep the fight going. And then we’ve got to maybe book some bigger shows on Friday, Saturday. There’s always issues with startups — our air conditioning didn’t work last summer, so we never really could do any late night parties because it was hot in there. And so all of this is based on what we started being something very special, and we really need to keep it going. It’s wonderful. There’s two things that I want to—there’s two big buckets that I want to get into, one because I’ve never lived in New York City. So I’m curious about and you’ve been in the East Village for so long and you described it as your home and it’s a neighborhood you’ve been working in for such a long time. So I’m really curious to hear you talk about the neighborhood. But before I ask you that question, what do you think that you do? What is it that you do? How do you think about what you do? Yeah, I’m somewhat introspective, I know what I do. And I’ve always thought of myself as a social anthropologist, being fascinated by people, human interactions, no judgments. There’s nature, there’s nurture, there’s environment. People form for various reasons. Let’s have a discussion, whatever. But so what I think I do very well is set up an environment where I want to hang out. And luckily, it’s very authentic and it’s very organic and all these terms that marketing people use, I know is what I do. I mean, my place resonates because my environments are not over designed. It’s not H&L architects coming in to design this retro bar in Greenwich Village. That’s the old world New York with dark wood. It’s just all that’s not what I do. I just set up a place, design it. Maybe I have some collaborators. I mean, at Library Bar, it’s this rock and roll dive bar that has mine. I have Funk and Wagnalls encyclopedias I grew up with. It was always in our basement. We just put them behind the bar and all of this stuff. Tapping artists to do a mural, all of this stuff is what I think I do really well. And I think I want multi-generation. I want the 22 year olds the way I was at Doc Holliday’s because I had no money and I drank—it’s funny because the owner of Doc’s says he never did this but what got me in there because I was not a country music guy was they had $2 mugs of Guinness and I felt it was so deluxe. So I’d be in this honky tonk drinking and talking to a guy missing a tooth who’s telling me amazing stories and a cute bartender who’s turning me on to why country music is storytelling and amazing. I loved hanging out with the old timers when I was young and then it stopped with millennials only wanting to hang out with themselves and hang out and drink wine and smoke pot on the rooftop or whatever. What my places have always, I think, appealed to is multi-generational people, and then we’re all hanging out together. So that’s what I think I do. I think I create environments where people feel comfortable and can meet a stranger or they can meet up with a friend. But what I don’t want is you bringing 40 friends for your 30th birthday party and hanging out. And I don’t really see that at a lot of my places. If you’re solo, you’re comfortable no matter what your orientation is, no matter what you identify as, you’re comfortable, we look after safe space, and you might meet your best friend and it happens. I have so many people — if it comes up, oh, I own Library Bar — oh my god, I met my best friend there. Oh my god, my friend group is all from that bar. That happened at Cake Shop, that happened at Alt Coffee. That is something that I do, and I don’t always make the most money. I mean, as I’m getting older, I need to start thinking about retirement a little bit. I’m 55, I’m not making a lot of money, and so I have to calibrate: how do I do what I do and make some money on it so I don’t have to work till I’m 80? Although, full disclosure, my exit strategy is to be the 75 year old day bartender shuffling around some weird bar opening Budweisers. That’ll be okay for me too. What’s it, yeah, talk to me, how is it different now than it was, whatever, 20 years ago, trying to create that space, to create the opportunities for, I this is something that we fixate on all the time, or at least I do, that how hard it is to connect or interact with people that you don’t know, what, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. What have been the biggest changes that you’ve noticed in terms of how hard it is to do that now? Yeah, I mean, because things are so cyclical, it’s been interesting for me to be an observer over 30 years in New York City. There was a time where there weren’t any good rock bands and everything was electro clash or whatever. It just wasn’t. If it’s not your scene and you’re not feeling it, you can’t fake it. It’s interesting now with the Internet and social media. There’s, retro’s always been there. I mean, for me, romanticizing the 1950s cafes in 1995, or bands or whatever, but now with social media, it’s very interesting to see how trends come out. So my son is in the East Village. He was born in a railroad, grew up in the East Village, and he’s 22 years old. And now him and I are working together. He’s a bartender. He got into the business on his own, which I was proud of because I didn’t really want him to be just a nepo baby thing. But he totally got into it on his own for many years, and then I brought him in to work with me. And he grew up in a household that had indie music. He could have gravitated to pop or hip hop or EDM or something, but he didn’t. So now we’re able to work together and connect on that and go to shows together. Now he’s over 21, we go to shows together. But more importantly, working together, we’re seeing how the kids — younger kids, when I say kids, 20-somethings — are fascinated by us old timers the way I was fascinated by the old timers at the honky tonk, Doc Holliday’s. And I didn’t see that for a while. You didn’t see a band with a 25 year old drummer and a 45 year old guitar player. And now you are. And the conversations are so enjoyable. My whole thing is get people off the screens. That’s another part of what I do. I don’t have TVs. You walk into a bar in Midtown and everyone’s watching sports and you don’t have a sports conversation. What are you talking about? Right. That’s why music was always good for that for me — talking about the music, or a playlist, or so the young people now are asking us, my God, you own this place? How did that happen? And then they ask super fascinating questions. If I was, let’s say I was 35, bartending at Cake Shop, and a 22 year old band from Montreal comes through — it was different. It was a little different. But now they’re so bold, I guess because they’re used to having their whole lives be televised on screens. Maybe 20 years ago it would have seemed a weird question to ask an old-timer. But now they’re just curious and they almost don’t have filters on it, which I find endearing, but also really amazing. So when I first noticed this, it was me just being behind the bar. A young man, and they’re just so chatty, and a gal asked me, you own this place? Do you have any regrets? And I was like, whoa — this is the first, third sentence maybe that we spoke with each other. And she felt comfortable enough to ask me that question. Number one. Number two, I actually have a tattoo that says no regrets, but I have some. Sure. It just sparked this really great conversation with a 20-something when I was 50-something, and it was just learning from each other. And all of this stuff is a very fascinating, exciting time, I think, to be social. They’re all figuring it out. I have this conversation all the time with my son’s age group. They’re like, yeah, we spent too much time on the screens. There was quarantine, which meant he didn’t make any friends. He was a teenager during COVID. So instead of doing stupid s**t at Union Square that I did, or Washington Square Park or Tompkins, they were on a headset with their buddies from elementary school. Weren’t dating. Weren’t experimenting. Weren’t doing it. And so now they want to do that. But they’re so curious. And I think a lot of parents my generation maybe — I have to say, I didn’t, I never really liked doing this, but I probably did it with the video games. But other parents would just give their kid a screen to keep them quiet in the restaurant or to keep them quiet. So parenting, I think, is shifting — like, s**t, maybe we shouldn’t have that either. So that’s very interesting right now. Yeah, I’m sure you’ve been an independent, you’ve been independent. I mean, what you’ve been doing is unbelievable that it began with the I love the T1 line before there was internet cafes, but you’ve been independent in that place in that neighborhood for so long. The success you had at the Cake Shop, and then what you’re doing now with the clowns. And I’m just wondering, do you think about culture? Do you have thoughts about what it means? How do you choose what to include or who to invite or what to... You have a sense of something that’s happening in East Village with each of the things that you do. What do you feel you’re either responding to or experiencing in the East Village when you create a space and invite clowns to come in or invite Yeah. I mean, again, it’s funny, as this cis middle-aged white guy, not the most popular group of folks. But I’m an ally. I do good stuff, it just sort of, and it really is, I think Ben Dietz actually even made fun of me one time. This whole idea of gatekeeping or tastemaker, it’s unfashionable now, but I always did think of people with taste, that’s why curating a jukebox, who the f**k would think about curating a 99 CD jukebox? But I gave it so much thought and so much testing and experimentation, when I’d swap things in and out, or I’d have a discussion. I love it when people don’t know I’m the owner. That’s ideal — if they just think I’m a bartender, or they just think I’m a guy sitting at the bar. The conversations are very different. Knowing it just became something over time. I believe, and I’ve always said this — writing a business plan for what I do, there’s all these intangibles that I do really well that are very hard to put into a business plan. Vibe and decorating, whatever. So a lot of it is gut reaction. And during COVID, obviously I watched a ton of music documentaries, and it was always about these gut reactions of these A&R people, these label heads. Gut reactions. And sometimes people would tell them, this band will never do it. They’re like, no, this band’s special. I was like, I would have f*****g killed it in that role. And going out to see a million live shows, seeing a band you’ve never heard of, the hair in the back of your neck stands up — that’s so special to me. And I experience that all the time still because I go out a lot to small venues, and that’s what I love. But it’s this intangible. And I do think for me, it’s what resonates with me that I may or may not have experimented with or explored or had loads of conversations with people at an airport bar in Tampa or whatever. I do that all the time. I love it. That, I think allows me to have a unique perspective. Plus the fact that I’m this indie DIY struggles, ups and downs, every year is different. Very fluid operator in that sense that, yeah, it just does that answer your question? I might have lost track a little bit there in that one. What do you love about the work? Where’s the joy in it for you? Yeah, I mean, for me, it’s having a conversation with a stranger. It’s also that conversation leading into a new acquaintance or a new friend. But I also love — that’s the whole thing about airport bars. Having the greatest conversation with somebody that you’ll never, ever see again is always fun, too. And when I heard that airport bars started putting screens at every seat, I was like, no, that’s going to kill that. But now I heard they peeled that back, and it was just interesting culturally. But the joy for me is 10 years later, somebody telling me that they met their partner there, or they fell in love there, or they wrote their screenplay — all of that. Or they saw the best band that they’d ever heard, or they discovered this band from f*****g Milwaukee or whatever that they just loved and became a fan of. That’s the reward. And anytime I’m feeling like, oh my God, how am I going to keep this open? I’ll have that conversation. For me, it’s almost daily. And that really is why I keep doing it. And I’ve tried to get out of it. I’ve tried to do other careers. When I moved to New York in ‘92, I wanted to be maybe a journalist working for Details magazine or something like that. I loved Paper magazine, the Village Voice. But I didn’t have any portfolio because I just never knew. Nobody said go get an internship at a magazine or an indie label. That’s probably something I should have done. It just wasn’t in my wheelhouse, or it just wasn’t an experience that anybody had directed me towards. Having people — I know I’m doing really good work, in the sense of the way an artist does, but I’m not an artist. I’m the least creative guy. I’m a very good editor. I’m very good at taking things that work and putting them all together. But I tried to get out of the business, was my point, and then I’m like, s**t, the Pyramid Club is for sale. Let’s go do that. And then I jump in, twin barrels burning, and next thing I know I’m back into it. That also did come from, maybe I should work in an ad agency. I’ve always thought I would have been this organic marketer — then it’s becoming experiential marketing, experiential things, which is again a way I might be able to make a lot of money in the future. Because it is so hard now with a brick and mortar. Insurance is a big one — insurance in the past five years makes it cost prohibitive. And a lot of my models were based on cheap rent, building it up. Making a fan who tells 10 people instead of making an enemy who tells 100 and you can’t do that now. You have to be a splash and you have to splash quickly because the overhead at least in New York and I think probably all over has changed so much. That’s why everybody leans on social media to get this splash and get people in the door. I mean that’s what’s frustrating about what’s changed over the decades is you can’t let it germinate. You can’t have this authentic place where you want to hang out and just hope everybody else comes. That’s the trick now. What’s your sense of the difference between those two things? Letting him germinate or squash. Yeah, you’re painting a picture in which the economics mean you have to do this big splash, you’re describing an alternative form of growth. Yeah, it’s basically like I wanted to be the way CBGB’s was around for decades. What happens is you open this cool restaurant and you spend a lot of money on somebody to your Instagram. And then I don’t think you’re going to be popular two years later, because I think there’s only certain people and they’re going to go check out the next one or the next neighborhood or the next whatever. Versus being that institution that you can bring your kid to when they turn 21 or the coffee shop where you can meet your daughter who’s away at college come meet at the coffee shop and have a coffee. Everything is shorter lived, I think, because of the splash of social media or the hipness or if you are able to even do it. Well, I love you just use the word institution. Is it that you feel like you’ve been trying to build these little local institutions? It’s really beautiful. I do, yeah, yeah, definitely. Is that cocky? Is that too cocky? But it’s so grimy because sometimes I’m worried I’m going to pay my rent. And I think that’s what keeps me humble too, to be honest. If I really opened a hugely successful rooftop bar or something that made a shitload of money, I don’t know, it’d be different, right? No. I think. But what makes it worthwhile, all the struggle in the name of these local institutions? What makes it worthwhile? Because I’m having somebody that told me they had a great time 20 years ago or yesterday. It really is that. I’m making an impact on somebody’s life, whether it’s for one day or for decades. That’s huge. That just makes me feel good. I want to thank you so much for spending time with me and telling us a little bit about yourself. Do have any parting thoughts for people on Baker Falls or the village and introduce the neighborhood to them and your place? Yeah. I would say get off the screens. I get there where it’s like, s**t, I’m just going to stay home and watch Netflix, whatever. But then I go out and I’m like, my God, I’m so glad I did that. And I’m excited because I think people even a little older that maybe their kids are 12 or 13, they don’t need a babysitter, just go out and go out a little bit on your own and cut loose a little bit and have a good time and meet a new person. That is really my encouragement. And I think this is an interesting time where I’m starting to see it again. Lots of my friends or my peer group or my age group didn’t go out for decades. And now they’re coming back out and other people are coming back out. I think we need that human connection. It’s something people are talking about a lot now, but it’s very real — finding your community, finding your tribe. I heard an artist get up and talk about Pyramid Club, being a gay person in Charleston, South Carolina, and discovering in the seventies Pyramid Club, where everybody was welcome and no judgment and it inspired you to do things and inspired you to be yourself. That’s happening right now. And I don’t know if it took COVID for that to happen, but it’s really exciting. And support indie bands. I think there’s something to be said — we’re all small business owners trying to figure out what are we doing wrong and why are we struggling so hard. I think I’d like to encourage a level of patronage, whether it’s a GoFundMe or whether it’s a club you like where somebody’s sick or there’s something. I think people should be patrons a little bit more if you do have the money, because there are people that are struggling. Go pay the cover charge — that goes to the bands, it goes to the artists, it goes to the club. And if it says Venmo some more, then Venmo some more as a donation if you love the show or you love the artist. So that’s something I’m trying to be a big proponent of, and it sounds weird because I am this guy who owns places. But everybody needs help sometimes, whether that’s coming in the doors or making a donation or buying a ticket. And in that respect, it sucks what’s going on with the big companies and these high ticket prices that don’t go to the artists. I hadn’t realized that merch is how a young band can make money now — selling merchandise. And I didn’t realize the big companies take a percentage of their merch. That should not be going on. But I want you to have a t-shirt of a great band you saw at Madison Square Garden — but maybe write a letter or express an opinion that this isn’t okay, to exploit artists, whether it’s Spotify, Madison Square Garden, whatever. That’s what I leave people with. Keep it local, keep it small, support people that need support. It’s beautiful. It’s perfect. I love that idea of intentionally becoming a patron, a social patron in some way. It reminds me, I just brought this article up. There’s a piece from Derek Thompson, he talks about how we’re at the end of a decade of anti-social business. And it’s just been the phenomenon. It’s just been overwhelming, which we all know. But the piece here that he shared was about, it’s called, Why Cost Disease Is the Secret Force Behind America’s Toxic Solitude? And so at the end of it, he makes the case for subsidizing social infrastructure. He’s making almost the same argument that you’re making from an economic I like that. That’s great. These things that are hard, you can’t scale up cake shop, you can’t scale up Baker’s Falls. It’s an intimate, handmade, unbelievably constrained piece of wonderful stuff that needs to be supported and it’s been overwhelmed by the antisocial businesses of the last decade. So that’s just a beautiful thought to end on. I appreciate it so much. I will certainly stop by next time I’m down in the city. Of course, everybody’s welcome. Thanks, Peter. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Jonathan Taee on Rhizomes & Meaning

Dr. Jonathan Taee [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathantaee/] is a social anthropologist and the founder of Rhizome Consulting [https://www.rhizomeconsulting.com/], a New York digital strategy and brand systems agency. His clients range from Fortune 500 organizations like Target to mission-driven farms, real estate groups, and emerging consumer brands. His focus is on building "living brand systems" — adaptive structures that reflect how meaning is actually created today. He lives in the Hudson Valley, where he runs Ironwood Farm with his family. So, you may or may not know this, but I start every conversation, and I do this in my work too, with the same question, which I borrowed from a friend of mine who’s a neighbor, who you know, Suzanne Snyder, I imagine. And I use it because it’s a big, beautiful question. I can’t imagine a better question for getting into a conversation out of nowhere. But because it’s so big, I kind of over-explain it. So, before I ask, I want you to know that you are in absolute control, and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? My goodness. Out the gate with the existential big question. I, the first place I go to, because I’m a Brit living in the US, is I’m from England. But that, in a sense, is its own problematic answer, because I think I’ve lived more years in the States now than I have in the UK. So, it’s a question I’m asking myself all the time. But I was born in England and came to the US for, when I was probably about one year old. Lived here till I was eight, and then went back to the UK. My parents decided they wanted to put me back in English school. Finished my schooling there, and then did a gap year and all that, and then decided I wanted to come to the US for university. Met a woman, and here I am living in the Hudson Valley next to you, Peter, living the dream. But you know, where do I come from? You know, I identify as English, 100%. My kids have American accents. When I speak to English people, they think I’m American, because my accent’s all going all over the place. And every time they say that, it hurts a little bit. So, I’m going to claim the space here. I’m English. Are there moments when you feel particularly English? When I talk about being English. I hear my accent go. But when I’m in England, I almost feel less English. But you know, I’d say when I invite my friends over for a Sunday dinner, and they don’t know the decorum of what a Sunday lunch is, that makes me feel very English. When I feel offended about something that other people should know, but why would they know, because it’s culturally different, but I get offended about it, I’m like, oh yeah, that’s an original point for me. I think we’ve got to a very strong answer. What is the appropriate behavior for a Sunday dinner? It could be a podcast in and of itself, to be honest with you. I’ll give you the top line. If you accept the invite, you have to turn up unless something really bad happens. It’s not a casual invite. It’s not a potluck. When you’re invited, you’re expected to come because someone’s been cooking for 48 hours. You bring a bottle of wine. You don’t bring a dish. You are being fully hosted when you are invited to a Sunday lunch. Reciprocity and all that. Accept the gift and bring the bottle and play that role. That’s another good one. Those two feel like those could be very common. That must happen all the time. Americans just trampling all over the Sunday dinner. I’ve seen it all, Peter. I’ve been offended by it all. The other one is a good Sunday lunch is about hanging out with people. It’s about having drinks and talking. It’s then about eating a big meal probably more than you should. Then it’s about staying afterwards and sitting on the couch and kicking back. It’s something we don’t get to do that often. It’s not something that you come 45 minutes. I think I could make that two o’clock other friend. No, no, no, no. You don’t want to hear about any other friends. No, no new friends. No new friends on a Sunday lunch. I had an experience of something like that. It was a holiday feast at your place many years ago when both our kids were much smaller and you only had one, I think. Yeah, back when I could do things like that. Well, you know, my wife’s a farmer, so she grows it, I cook it. I’ve always enjoyed doing the cooking bit. The hosting piece, that’s a big Brit thing. We like to host people for meals, etc. I want to know, when you were a kid, did you have an idea? Do you have a of young Johnny and what he wanted to be when he grew up? I’m embarrassed about the answer. They did all these, you know, testing in England at school that would tell you sort of what career you could potentially be good for, which I always got really frustrated with later in life. So I always thought I’d love to be a doctor, like a emergency room doctor. Maybe it’s because I’m just watching the pit too much. And I was told I wasn’t good at science. And so as a young person, I really steered myself away from that. And I feel like I really did myself a disservice, saying, no, I can do that. I’ll just apply myself more and I could make it through. It was like, because I was told I wasn’t good at science, being a doctor was never a thing I could do. And so I can’t remember what the tests told me. It’s probably something like you’d be good as a career counselor or something. But I think the answer that I’m embarrassed by is I said I wanted to be a businessman. Ah. And what was a businessman? I don’t know what business it was. I was naive at that time, but I’m almost like, am I that now? You know, I deal with for-profit businesses and digital marketing and I’m constantly talking to people about our services and selling what we do or talking about other people and their businesses and, you know, the problems they face and the solutions we could deploy. And maybe I am strangely become that businessman that I never thought I would be. Johnny, I mean, that would mean that you’ve achieved your childhood dreams. Oh, no. Another existential dilemma, Peter. So catch us up. Where are you and what is the work that you do? So I run a digital studio. Sometimes we call ourselves an agency, depending what day it is, in the Hudson Valley, New York. We’re based in Hudson, New York. But we work nationally and internationally. We have some international clients as well. We’re defined by three main pillars of work. We build brands, brand strategy and identity systems. We build websites, both sort of informational sites as well as full e-commerce sites. We’re in Shopify daily. And then we do full 360 digital marketing for our clients. And our best projects are the ones that span all three of those pillars, because that means that we’re working with clients over several years. The relationship is very deep. The results are very are productive and keep the client, you know, coming back and wanting to work with us. And we get to see growth. You know, that’s really if we worked across all three of those pillars, we’ve seen growth and some positive marketing market feedback. How did you come to Hudson Valley, Hudson, New York? What do you love about it? So I met a woman at the University of Virginia and we fell in love. And I went off to do a PhD and she went off to farm in New York in the Hudson Valley. She came here because of what’s called the craft program, which is this amazing young farmers program, especially in the Northeast, where if you want to farm and you don’t know how to get into it, you can join this program. And that was her. And so she was doing this thing in the Hudson Valley. I remember visiting her when when when she was here thinking, where are we? She’s living in a box in the woods on this random farm up in Chatham. But there was something beautiful about it reminded me of home, reminded me of England. And then things pretty good were getting serious with the woman. And then eventually she said, I want to farm. I want a baby and I want it in the Hudson Valley. Are we doing this? And I took a moment to think about it and then said, yeah, all right. Sounds great. Let’s go. And so fast forward. Here I am. Yeah. And the PhD, I remember when we met. I mean, when did you arrive in Hudson? I remember going to Baba Louie’s pizza in Hudson about 2010, I think was the first time. So I was writing the PhD when I was I was living in Kinderhook. Yeah. In Hudson, Kinderhook area at that time, post fieldwork. Yeah. Would you want to tell the story of the fieldwork you did? You went, you were you’re an anthropologist. Yeah. So I got into anthropology in undergrad. The gap year that I mentioned to was quite informative for me. I was 18. I thought I knew everything about the world and myself. And I knew that I was living in England in a bubble and I was like, I’m going to get out of the West. So I lived in Nepal basically for a year with an organization called it’s now called Relentless Development, I think. And they would put someone like me at 18 years old, paired up with a Nepali counterpart in a village in the south of Nepal. And very quickly, it was a shock. It was a shocking experience because I didn’t know everything. I knew actually very little. And the West that I was trying to escape was actually in me. And then it started to pour out of me in these strange ways. And I was like embarrassed about it, confused about it. It was a great experience. I loved living in that village and the people were so wonderful. It was during the Maoist rebellion there. So there was a lot of violence going on at the time. But basically when I got to UVA, I was like, what did I just do? I mean, my brain was scrambled. My identity was scrambled. And then I discovered in the, literally in back in that day, there was like the course book that they would print. And I was flicking through. I was like, what courses am I going to take? Oh, this thing called anthropology. What’s that? I looked it up in the dictionary, literally. And I was like, that’s interesting. That’s exactly what I want to do. Fast forward, went to Cambridge to do a PhD in social anthropology, which lent more towards medical anthropology. And then the field work was in Bhutan, studying the different types of healthcare that people use in Bhutan. I spent a year doing the field work there, wrote it, published it as a book. Yeah. I love how you described the West of being in you and then coming out of you in all these uncomfortable ways. I feel like I’ve identified with that a lot. And yeah, what else can you say about that experience, about being so far from home? What is, what’s the thing that no matter where you go, there you are, right? Yeah. The first thing to say, I think about it is I problematize the whole thing in my head a lot now that I’m older. I mean, we went there to help and volunteer. So there are these gap year programs, you know, where you get to river raft one month and then you’re building a well in a village. This was all about helping. And I really was on my high horse, you know, I was like, I want to volunteer and serve. But, you know, did anybody ask those villagers, you know, did they want this English white guy to come in? You know, the boundaries of consent there in the work and, and, um, it’s pretty, pretty blurred. I did like the program though, because they, the teaming up with national volunteers was a big part of it. So we had language training. I had two Napoli counterparts actually, who we lived with and worked with. So it was we were very embedded and the whole program was to get involved with the school, you know, create a student youth club, then ask the youth club to see if they wanted to, you know, what did they want to do? What did the community want to do? And then try to action that work. So as you know, well-building and, and Western, you know, top of the spear kind of international relief and development goes, it was pretty, it was soft, but still to this day, I’m like, whoa, well, what was I doing? What was I doing? And I, you know, I was 18. I didn’t, I didn’t know much. You know, I wasn’t really that reflective of who I was and that’s what was coming out of me. I was like, oh, you know, getting frustrated at things or the slowness of things, things that I thought the way the work should go or what the youth team should do, or the community was not necessarily grateful for the work that I was doing confused me. Cause I thought that, oh, service is service. Health is health. It’s not, you know, what did you love about, what drew you to anthropology or what was the, what was that like? I, when I came back from Nepal and I landed, I call it like landing in the full marching band, college marching band of university in the States. I mean, university of Virginia, big state university, all the things that you, you know, in love and like those old school nineties university movies was seemed to be happening there. And I just felt so lost, you know, like, how do I make sense of these different world views that I had experienced in Nepal, in England and now in the States? I found it really confusing and anthropology it didn’t actually start to build the first thing it did. It started breaking everything down, you know, that postmodern breakdown where it’s like everything you ever thought was truth. We’re going to, we’re going to break it into component parts, start looking at the parts, break them even further down. You know, it wasn’t till way later where I think I started to build back again. It was just four years of brutal destruction. I think anthropology gave the framework of how to do that without going crazy or down, down a certain rabbit hole. It kept you quite honest and the whole, the whole exercise seemed to be very, self-critical in itself. So, you know, it’s, it helped me do that. And then when it start, when I started to understand the practice in itself and then started to go do field work and putting myself in that space through the PhD, you start to see a lot more of the value of the practice out in the world, you know, what the work that you’re doing, the people I was talking to, yeah, yeah. So it did become a positive thing in the end. It wasn’t just destruction because I know a lot of anthropologists can feel that way, you know, like, what are we doing? We’re just talking in circles and circles. And whereas I work, you know, is it applied at all ever? Yeah. It’s challenging. What was the role of the field work? And then I want to get to sort of where you’re at now, but I’m just, I’m sort of, and there’s a piece of me that’s also envious. I came to sort of, you know, the anthropological ideas really late. So I sort of envy being a student and learning and then engaging it with it in that way. And at that age, but I’m just curious, the field work, what was that like for you and what was it like to pick up as a skill or as an ability or even just as an experience? Yeah. I loved it. I feel very blessed and lucky that I got to do the field work. I went to Bhutan, a country that is, has been very closed off for a long time. And then when it did start to let folks in, whoever they were, Westerners, Indian, Chinese, or Indonesian Malaysians, a lot of people from there, you know, they did it in a very protected manner. They were very controlled. You know, if you $250 a day, at least through the visas and the tour company there, they don’t let Johnny Tay. And when he was 18 years old, backpacking in Nepal, the neighbor, you know, they let me live off $3 a day. So they’re very protective over what they have. And so the field work, you know, to get access is a story in of itself of how that happened. And essentially I was given a visa for a year, with a lot of freedom to move around the country. I bought a car in there and I was just allowed to drive wherever, which is just all very, it’s a very, very rare thing. The field work itself was, you know, looking at the different types of healthcare that were available to patients in Bhutan. And then how they navigated between them. It really became about healthcare seeking behavior, and trying to look, look at that in the context of Bhutan, which is very interesting, very quickly. They have a national healthcare service that’s biomedical. They have, so it’s paid for by the state. If you get, say for example, cancer or you have a heart problem in the East of Bhutan, you’ll get referred from your national health clinic on the mountain side to the Mongar health clinic or hospital in the East of the country, which is the biggest, one of the biggest hospital in the East. If they can’t treat you there, you’ll get sent to Timpu, the capital. If you can’t get treated there, they’ll even pay for you and a family member to go to India. So they’ve got this, you know, it’s a very active state controlled, all paid for health system in a country that is, you know, quite economically challenged. And so, you know, there aren’t that many doctors in, like in Bhutan. I’m sure it’s, I don’t know what the number is today, but it was really low before. So in some ways, you know, speaking from the American point of view, amazing because I just seek the care that I need. But the question they have is, is the doctor actually there, the medication there that I need to get? That’s actually their problem. Then you have a national healthcare service that’s traditional medicine. So I can walk, when I walk into a hospital in Mongar, the receptionist will ask me, would you like, but they call it modern, really modern healthcare, which is the biomedical, would you like traditional medicine, which is, it comes from, sort of Tibetan medicine history there. That region, all medicines grown, medicines come from plants and elements grown on the Himalayan mountain range in Bhutan, whole medicine collection thing that happens there. And it’s a very structured, well-known, systematized form of traditional medicine. And then there’s a third category of alternative practice. So shamans, ritual healers, religious healing, folk remedies, a whole bunch of stuff, which the state is not involved in. And there’s a tango that happens between state practice and those other pieces. So it was all about that when you’re sick as a patient there, people are referencing and using all of these things, oftentimes all at once or in competing intensity and timeframe. And so there’s a lot of complexity that arises there about how people seek care, what’s meaningful. What do you feel like you learned? I guess being an anthropologist and somebody who’s done that kind of field work, what do you feel like you carry with you that somebody that doesn’t, hasn’t had that experience? I don’t know if I finished that question correctly. No, I, I hear it. I think, I think it’s about how to talk to people. And I think you’re quite good at this Peter. You want to start writing questions. Just asking questions, being able to walk into a room and sit down with anybody and be yourself, an open listening book, and ask the types of questions that get beyond just that surface level and start really diving deep into someone’s life, their, their context, physical context, their knowledge, context, all of that, and just go deep and deep and deep and not be too preoccupied with yourself and your agenda and what you’re thinking about. I think that’s what the training tries to get you to be, you know, and again, anthropology problematizes that, you know, we’re loaded as a, as a human being we’re loaded with culture. And so we try to make ourselves, we’re trained to be as neutral as possible when going into situations, but you never truly are. But I think as anthropologists who’ve done that field work and enjoyed it and liked it, you probably come out with some pretty good listening skills. And so my tolerance to sit down with people from all walks of life, different political sides or, education side, any, wherever you come from. I just love it. I love sitting down, speaking, talking to people, especially when they’re really out of my context. You know, if I meet someone who’s just really different from my everyday walk of life, that’s exciting for me. Yeah. So how do you, what’s the story from social anthropology, Bhutan to Rhizome, your agency, your studio? How did you start this work? It turns out, I don’t know if all your guests, your anthropologist guests are like this, maybe they, you’re speaking to the successful ones, but anthropology is just never paid. Reading books and doing field work. I mean, there’s a whole story to have about how I funded my PhD. I mean, I felt like I ran it like a business. You know, I, I was never that good, Peter. So I never got the big fellowships where Cambridge was like, yeah, we’ll just four years. We got you, Johnny. It wasn’t like that. They actually let me in and said, we won’t pay for you. So, I had to self fund it and I did it through finding, lots of different scholarships. And you know, when, once you enter that world, there is opportunity, but it was very entrepreneurial. Yeah. But you’re speaking as if the anthropologist in you isn’t a work or at work or alive in the work that you’re doing now, which yeah. Well, they are aligned then they emerging every day more and more. But you know, while I was running basically while I was at the university of Virginia learning anthropology and becoming a budding anthropologist, I was also spinning hard drives doing graphic work and eventually ended up running the digital media lab. It was called the UVA. And by the time I graduated, I was spinning four different hard drives across three different paid gigs for graphics, graphic design, motion graphics, everything. I mean, I was basically teaching digital media by the time I left and my gosh, Peter, that worked paid. So throughout the PhD, I would take small projects here or there. And then it all, it all sort of came to a head when the PhD finished and we decided my wife and I decided to move to the Hudson Valley permanently and have that farm and that baby. I looked around and I was like, well, what, what am I going to do? And so I just, I founded the agency then, and then started taking it really seriously and it just blossomed. I mean, it was like project to project, new client to new client. There was a lot of need for it. Again, there’s listening skills, I think really helped because all of our clients had different challenges or problems that they’re trying to solve. And I’ve found that the work comes when you really understand the client and what challenge they face. You know, if you’re a specialist in Google ads, for example, you want your problem, your client’s problem to be a Google ads problem. And it’s nice when it is, but it’s usually not. And so we, yeah, we flexed and changed and adapted a lot over the years to help our problems, clients solve, you know, very specific business problems. What do you love about the work that you’re doing at Rhizome? I have a question about the name too, Rhizome, but, what do you love about the work? Where’s the joy in it for you? I really, I really like working with small to medium sized businesses where someone’s doing something really quite unique and special and you just help them get to where they want to go. This is a lot, we spend a lot of our day talking to folks who are like, we’ve got this vision, but we just don’t quite know how to get there. And my team and I can come in and, do a little bit of work, put some systems in place, put some tech in place, put some education in place, and then you just watch something grow. And it’s thrilling, you know, when we get a client that calls us or we meet them and they’re like, look at this, look what happened. And you’re like, we know it works. It feels like magic, you know? And it, and it does boil down to the anthropology thing. What, why is it working? It’s because we’re moving people, you know, our clients want some type of action to occur in the world. They want people to do something. And when we see people doing that, it’s quite, it still blows my mind. It’s exciting. Yeah. Is there a good story you can tell about the work that you’re doing, but you’re comfortable sharing? If not, that’s fine. I love talking about work. We had a very interesting project, a year or two ago where we helped the city of battle Creek in Michigan, which is formerly known as serial city rebrand itself. They didn’t quite like serial city. It felt, old the city in which Kellogg was founded as well as Ford. But in which serial is no longer made. And actually a lot of incredible stuff is happening in battle Creek. Now, a lot of art going down a lot of new business, incredible education programs and things like that. And small businesses are being born every day in battle Creek. And so the city came forth with a project where they, they wanted a new identity. They, you know, and it had to be born from a very community-based, process. This was not about big consultants coming in and telling them what you should be positioned here, because we’ve looked at the competitive sets of all of the cities around you. And we think there’s white space quote unquote here. No, the opposite was true. It was about really understanding who battle Creek was, who they wanted to be, who they were in the past as well, because that was all, it was all sort of compressed into one layer and then asserting a type of identity, visual and words that would not only be reflective of who they were, but allow room to grow as well, because they, they were in a real, an upswing, like an inflection point of growth for them, culturally, economically size, you know, demographic as well. So that’s a, that’s a cool problem to solve when you come to like branding and identity, because you’ve got to build something that is hyper flexibility and applicability to the, to set community. And it was real privilege to, you know, work with, with those people to come, come forth with a solution. And I think we did it. We had a cool design that was very flexible. The end up, it was the, the visuals that the tagline was, battle Creek, our city, your home. And the visual was a very simple, a hand with a heart placed where battle Creek is because in Michigan, they often have the mitten shape of the state. So it’s a recognizable shape that especially Michigan folks know. And then we put the heart right at battle Creek. And the whole idea was that the design could be rebuilt in any style that you wanted. So for example, the battle Creek zoo could do an animal pool and place a heart in the animal pool and make it their own, you know, a rock symbol, if you were a rock band from with the battle Creek, but there was, so there was, a connection to the identity and who they were, but then massive extendability to the brand design. Very, very cool. Very cool. And I’m curious about process. What do you want to, when a question like that comes in front of you, how do you learn or what’s your approach to sort of orienting yourself to a project and thinking about how to, how to learn? And I guess for there’s, there’s always a selfish question or motivation behind my question. And it’s sort of like, what’s the role of research in the work that you do and how you think about it? Every project is different in the bandwidth we have for research. So that is a good, the battle Creek projects, a great example where there was a, there was demand and a requirement for a ton of research and listening. And there was the funding for it. It was a nonprofit in scope, the, but a lot of our clients are for-profit businesses and the appetite for a lot of research is not there, especially in the small to medium sized business. Sets people need results really quickly and they want to get right to it. And so our approach really, again, is about listening to the client where they are in their journey and trying to tune a project, that fits their context perfectly. There’s a lot of layers of technical stuff, professional stuff, digital marketing stuff. You know, when you’re building a Shopify site, there’s a lot of rules, best practices that you have to follow. Or if you’re doing digital marketing, if you’re going to run a Google ads campaign or, you know what you’re doing, there’s a lot, just expertise around that. But that’s just not enough. It needs to be the, the tactics of the digital marketing or website work needs to meet with the goals and the strategy of where the client is. And that’s that magic point. So I spend my time really trying to think about before we even sign engagements, our proposal process takes a long time because we try to really line those things up so that we’re not just doing digital marketing tactics all day. And it’s not producing the end results. That’s how projects fail. You know, where you’ve gone past, you’ve done 12 months of work and you look back and no one’s happy about it. Yeah. Typically it’s not because the tactics were wrong. It’s not because the client didn’t have goals. It’s because they didn’t match up. Yeah. What is your, it’s, what kinds of, I’m curious about how you listen to clients and how you engage with them in order to make sure that you’re learning and understanding, are there any tricks of the trades or ways that you think about, being in conversation with them or structuring that kind of conversation with them? I find, maybe this is the anthropologist in me and the ethnographer, but you need to put your body in space and time with the client and you need a lot of time. I’ve tried to do it just over zoom, for example, or in a couple of meetings. We never use things like surveys anymore. You know, it needs to be exploratory, discovery based conversation and that the more hours, the better really. And just when I think I know something about a client or their business and their problem, another conversation unveiled something new, and you’re always surprised. So I try to go a little ethnographic with it, you know, ethnographer, just try to be in their place of business. We did a really lovely project in Pittsburgh, last year and continuing to work with the company called Elmhurst. Elmhurst group is formerly they’re a real estate developer in the Pittsburgh region. And we spent a week there just, you know, literally meeting everybody that they work with going to events, that were only tangentially connected with real estate development, but it’s all input and interesting talking with every single employee from the company, talking to, all their vendors and suppliers and, partners in the business, investors, you know, the whole stack, everyone, the network, you know, and anyone connected to the network, let’s do active listening. So that’s what I mean, if we, if we’re doing it, right, we’ve got a body in place in time where the client is, beautiful. And the name Rhizome, what’s the, why name it Rhizome? This is a very existential question where I was worried you were going to ask me because Rhizome is going through its own rebranding process. It’s finally come the time where we haven’t spoken about the work that we’ve done really ever. We do, you know, a little on our website. And I’m quite excited about presenting us to the world in a more formal sense. And the term Rhizome was deeply personal to me and very, influential in the way that I think about the world. It comes from Deleuze and Guattari, work, you know, a thousand plateaus, anti-Oedipus and the work with rhizomatic theory, versus arborescent tree-based structure. So it’s a whole, it’s a whole ontology about the world, which is like, Oh, do I really, am I, I, there are many other professional philosophers out there that should be talking about this, not me, but I’ve found myself as we start to rebrand, asking ourselves the question of like, who are we? Why, why do we do what we do? What’s the philosophy behind it? And the answer is yes. Rhizomatic assemblage theory applied then to digital marketing in the way that we think about business and digital marketing. So. Yeah. So, but unpack that stuff for me that what, what is rhizomatic assembly theory? What is the, what, what’s the significance, or is this something you know? Oh, I I’ll give it, I’ll give it. I just want to make sure I’m interpreting correctly. You were leaning into rhizome. You were owning and claiming rhizome. I am. Yes, I am. Yeah. So I’ll give it my best shot. I think Deleuze and Guattari or Guattari, they were writing at, you know, late sixties, early seventies, and they were writing in response to Freud specifically, like anti Oedipus, one of their major first works was specifically critiquing Freud. And so in the sixties, by the sixties, you had something happening where scientific thought, cultural thought knowledge was getting very, very narrow and trying to sort of put itself around a very specific way the world is and the way things are like that. And that’s the arborescent structure. So you’ve got a tree with a trunk. It is the single source of truth. And then if you could just get that trunk of knowledge set and you really knew what the way it works, then it blooms into leaves and it has all this emergent quality to it of meaning. So if I’m sitting on the Freud’s couch and you’re like, I had this dream about riding my bike, you know, Freud will distill it through those from the tree back through the branches to this trunk of knowledge about, oh, it’s an Oedipus complex. You know, you love your mother, whatever. Deleuze and Guattari would then really trying to problematize that. And they were like, no, no, no, no, no. There isn’t this central structure of knowledge. The world doesn’t really work like that. It works more like a rhizome. It works more like a network with nodes in it. So nodes being anything, physical knowledge, human beings, literally, it could be anything. But the, you start to think about the relationality between different things in a network, how they come together to create power. Thank you, Foucault. And then how they emerge out into the world to create meaning, production, etc. And so when you do that as an anthropologist, it’s interesting because it allows you to really complexify meaning and complexify anything that you’re studying systems, for example, instead of strict structures. And then you can break those systems apart, put them back together again. And so that’s a rhizome. It’s non-linear. Like if you imagine that rhizome tuber under the earth, it grows in all different directions. It grows up, down, left, right. It can connect itself sometimes like branches of rhizomes come together and create single tubers that then go on and branch off again. Very networked type of physical thing. Also, my wife grows ginger, which is so you know, I see those rhizomes a lot every day. So the name of this... Did that make any sense by the way? It did, it did. What’s the application to a brand? In what ways is sort of, I’m assuming, brand or the work you do rhizomatic, if that’s the appropriate use of that term? Yeah, yeah. Or am I pushing too hard? Tell me the story. This is really where like the rubber hits the road. Like what’s the point of talking about a digital studio’s philosophical thing if you can’t actually make meaning in the digital universe? You know, I think, and I actually really believe in this in the work that we do, which is there is one way to approach digital marketing, where there’s like, there is one brand truth, one way something has to be. And again, at that tactical level of digital marketing, this is the one way you do it. Like when you come to my digital agency, we’ll do this for you, this for you, this for you, and it’ll produce these results. And these are the tools that we have. I think that what I have learned in my experience is that no one set of tactical digital marketing solutions fits every use case. And if there’s anything true with what’s happening with AI in the world now, and every marketing startup company, I mean, there are so many different platforms that could be used, so much time that could be spent on different types of marketing or tool sets in the work that we do. That there is no one size fits all. There are always layers, connections and things that need to be connected or disconnected, reassembled into something else. And so when we think about marketing, we try to approach it that way. We really open the network and say, what does this client need? What are they trying to solve objectively? And then what are all the different tools and methods that we could apply here? How can we layer them? When we layer them or connect them, do we see added growth? Interconnectivity, essentially, because the digital world is so interconnected in ways. And as you think about what’s about to happen, what is happening with SEO currently now, and LLMs, and LLMs now driving a large percentage of, or replacing a large percentage of search traffic and organic traffic, it’s a whole new expansion set. And no one really, I don’t think anybody really knows what’s going... The old days of SEO, it was like you use keywords and a meta title and a description, and that will move Google in the search results. I think it’s getting more and more complex every day with what actually makes a difference out there in the digital space. Do you have an idea or an image of what that looks like? I mean, I hear people talk about share of model from an advertising thing, where you used to worry about share of voice, but now the LLM is its own thing that, of course, now needs to be dealt with and managed. I’m just, I mean, I’m not expecting anything, but I’m just... Do you even have a mental model of what’s going on or ways of talking about it? I think, if we think about it rhizomatically and non-linearly, I think there is a massive expansion happening right now, like laterally, like there’s a growth of pathways digitally happening. Systems are being connected, new systems are growing and being connected further. And so it’s becoming a very dynamic, expanding network of digital presence. And in that sense, no one, I don’t think anybody really knows, because what’s driving it is also human beings, right? Like our behavior, our search behavior. What app do you open? What do you search for? You know, what do you click on? And the digital universe now really knows that, you know, it grows on data and it will follow human beings. So there’s a lot of experimental expansion. And I think a lot of different folks are learning about where humans are actually engaging with those sort of different expansions. Where it’s going to go? And I don’t know. I don’t know. I also think we’re always like moments away from big platform changes and introductions, especially with AI. I think that if everybody was using Twitter as a growth engine five years ago, what’s going to be the growth engine of next year? I don’t know. Could it be chat, GBT? Which of the major LLMs will drive the majority of traffic to shop? I don’t know yet. We will know soon. So yeah, it’s a lot of unknowns. . Last question. The newsletter that I, is that Business of Meaning? You’ve used the word meaning a handful of times, and I know you like big philosophical questions. What are we talking about when we talk about meaning? Are you glad you accepted this invitation, Jonny? I’ll pull it to the human thing. I think meaning matters to a human being, at least I think in a lot of what we do. I actually think that’s also problematic. I think meaning, there is meaning for protons and neutrons in the way that they connect. The way the universe is formed, I think the universe is really going to get heady with it. The universe has a meaning that has nothing to do with human beings, which is also a crazy AI thought, because what if AI is the universe’s next way of knowing itself? Human knowledge and humans’ idea of meaning and what we think is important to me is about to be overrun. But I think right now, for me, we have two daughters, a wife and a life and a business that relies on human beings. Meaning is what humans make it to be, and where they put their time, bodies, and actions. In the biggest sense, I think it’s that. What you do with that, then, in my work, we’re often trying to make people take an action. In marketing speak, the CTA, the call to action. How do I get somebody to click that button? How do I get somebody to read something that we think is important? I know somebody’s out there that wants this thing. How do we connect it? We have a lovely client right now. They’re called Stonehouse Grain. They make certified organic animal feed from grain that they grow in the Hudson Valley. Our current challenge right now is that we know there are people all over the Northeast that would love their product, that they’re looking to raise the healthiest possible animals they can, and they want the best quality feed, but they don’t know that this business exists. In this sense, our meaning is we’ve got folks who really love farming and raising animals. We have someone who just loves growing the best quality grain, and we have to make them meet. There is a meaning production there when that meeting happens. That’s pretty exciting. Was that an answer? I don’t know. It was a perfect answer. It was great. We’re at time. I want to thank you very much. I really appreciate you accepting the invitation. Yes, it’s been great. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. I invite you to Sunday lunch, Peter. I will know how to behave now, or at least I know a couple of mistakes that I can avoid. Sounds good. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

John Dutton on Utopia & Nowhere

John B. Dutton [https://www.johnbdutton.com/] is Head of Creative Services at the National Film Board of Canada. He was previously Chief Creative Officer and Partner at Camden, a Montreal-based international advertising agency. He writes the Discomfort Zone [https://johnbdutton.substack.com/] newsletter and is the author [https://www.johnbdutton.com/] of the novel 2084 [https://www.johnbdutton.com/2084bookstore]. I’m not sure if you know this, but you may or may not know this, but I start every one of these conversations with the same question. It’s this big question that I borrowed from a friend of mine, who’s also a neighbor, and she helps people tell their story. And she’s got this question that is, there’s no better question that I found to start a conversation or get into a conversation. But it’s such a big question, I over-explain it the way that I’m doing right now. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you are in absolute control, and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? Yes, and I was aware that this was a question, because I’ve listened to many, I don’t know, several interviews that you give. So I was well aware of this question. And this is going to take up the entire hour, so just so you know. We’ll both take a sip of water. Yeah, get ready. Here it comes. Because I did think about, I knew that you were going to ask, and I was like, oh, this is actually funny. And I don’t want to be literally talking about myself for an hour. But in a way, and this is going to sound overly mysterious, but in a way, the answer is nowhere. And there’s a reason for that, which is that the place I was born was in a county. You see, I have to use the past tense. It actually doesn’t, and this isn’t some story of a war-torn place. Loads of people must have this story. Mine is a very super benign version of this story, right? But basically, I was born in a county where they moved the border for various administrative municipal reasons about four years, three or four years after I was born. So in a way, it doesn’t exist anymore. But there is a bigger answer to why nowhere is the answer, which is that my parents moved from there when I was one year old to the south of England. I was born in the north of England, between Liverpool and Manchester, in a town called Warrington that back then was in Lancashire and is now in Cheshire. And they moved to the south of England. And for an American, for a Canadian, England is a tiny place, right? But back then in the 1968 or 67 or whatever year it was, that was going to the other end of the earth. So I grew up in the south of England, and that led to I was in the north just long enough to get an accent from the north so that I have literally had an accent my entire life. Because I went to school, so I would be teased at school for having an accent from the north because kids are kids, right? And then it became a bit of a mix, right, of accents if you’ve been in a place for long enough. But that also means that it’s an accent of somewhere and sort of undefinable. Then I moved to Montreal when I was 21. Of course, I had an accent then, right? And I don’t know what you think my accent sounds like now, but it’s probably mid-Atlantic-ish, right? And so the answer is nowhere because it’s a, I live, my parents moved a fair bit when I was young as well on top of that. So yeah, so I grew up living in a tiny town, the seaside, the country, a big town, and in London before I was finished being 18. Wow. Do you have a feeling that you’re, you sound different? Are you aware of your accent? Yeah, yes, and it comes and goes. And even in French, because I’m in Montreal, I work in French, minimum half the time. I have the French, the French I learned at school in England has a completely different accent from the French here. So I have to switch my French accent if I go to France because I don’t have to, but I just do because that was the first French I learned. Right. Just if I’m speaking on the phone to my family in England, I’m going to start reverting back to that accent. But even then, I don’t have the same accent as my sister, who’s not even, and even growing up, I didn’t. She’s not even two years younger than me, and we had different accents. Yeah. Literally pronouncing words differently, bath and bath, which I have trouble saying. It’s an effort for me to say that. Because that’s what she says, and that’s not what I say. So those vowels are carved in stone by the time you’re a one-year-old. That’s amazing. I don’t know if it’s amazing, but it’s the long-winded answer to your question. I’m fascinated by it. The awareness of this, of the accent, the placeless accent is really, that seems like an interesting experience, a phenomenon in a way. Is that worth going at? Yeah. There’s no way of not being aware of an accent in England, though, right? Because it’s still fairly class-based. It’s better than it was when you would struggle to get certain jobs if you had what would be called a working class, lower class accent. Now, that’s not really the case. BBC has all kinds of ranges of accents. When, 50 years ago, it was a thing that sounded like the Queen, a posh accent, basically, right? So at least in that respect, it’s a bit more democratized, but it’s still there. Still, you’re very, very aware of somebody’s accent the second they open their mouth in Britain. What do I sound like? You sound American. Well, I know where you live, you live down the road from Montreal. You don’t sound that much different from the Canadians around here, right? So you don’t sound that much different from me if I’m not paying much attention. The thing is that what I know, though, is that my accents, they come and go, just depending on context and without trying. Sometimes I would try, but obviously. Yeah. But I said, if I’m on the phone to my sister or my dad when he was alive, pretty much instantly somebody would listen and be like, wow, he’s doing an accent. But I wasn’t doing an accent. It was just that the context changed enough for me to click back into it. That’s really cool. I mean, but just the same way as you would click, if you did speak more than one language, you wouldn’t be thinking about it. You just change, right? The context would mean that you would just speak it that way. So it’s not that weird. And it could be potentially pretentious. I do know people who are from Canada, went to school in England and yet somehow still have a bit of a British accent. Right? It’s like, OK. Yeah, I’ve had that experience. It immediately comes to mind as an American who played soccer. We had an American who went to play football in England. And he had a British accent. And it was just, yeah, come on, stop. Well, coming back with it depends how long he was there. Yeah, I know. I’m forgiving. This is a child in me responding to this guy coming. Right, right. Exactly right. But that’s exactly what I was getting at about being made fun of for being teased for having an accent. But if he kept it for more than a couple of years, then that would be really, come on. Yeah. So you’re just trying to get the ladies probably, right? Yeah, because that works. That accent works over here. We’ve strayed a little bit. What did you want to be as a kid when you’re young, John, in the south of England? Do you have a recollection of what you wanted to be when you grew up? Yeah, not far off what I ended up doing, because the first in terms of a specifically a job, it was journalist and I’ve never been a journalist, but I’ve been a writer and I’ve worked in TV. Now I work for the National Film Board. So it’s pretty adjacent to that. And the only reason I stopped having that ambition was because finally, once you become aware of what British, especially, what you would call the gutter press, the popular newspapers in Britain are renowned for being pretty. I don’t know what word to even use, just crappy. How far can the swear word me to go in this? Yeah, we’re here all the way. Yeah, all the way. OK, yeah. It’s crass at best. It’s f*****g shitty. The way they treat regular people, never mind celebrity. When I found out what it seemed like. Oh, that’s what journalists do. That’s awful. Growing up in the eight, being a teenager in the 80s, I was like, oh, I don’t want to do that. That’s terrible. Right. Of course, there’s loads of amazing journalists in Britain. Right. But that was what I would see on the tabloid front pages. And every day, right, is this absolute s**t. And so I stopped wanting to do that. And yeah. So but writing was obviously a thing all along. So yeah. And catch us up. Where are you now and what’s the work that you’re doing? So I’m head of creative services at the National Film Board of Canada, which is a storied organization. It’s been around for over 85 years. We just one of our films just won an Oscar two weeks ago. Congratulations. Thank you. I can’t take credit for the film. It won best short animated film, and it’s called The Girl Who Cried Pearls. It’s a stop motion film by a pair of directors who were previously nominated for an Oscar at least 10 years ago. And painstaking, stop motion takes a long time. This was years and years and COVID happened in the middle of it. So it was well over five years of work making this thing. And then the National Film Board, the NFB, has a lot of technical expertise to add to. They have a scene where it’s set in Montreal and Paris, this film. There’s a winter time. There’s some light snow drifting down, which happens in Montreal. And that was CG, right? That was computer animation, right? So there’s little touches that are added to this painstaking craftsmanship and all of the human element. They had real actors who performed the film that then they reproduce the actor’s movements with what are called puppets. But puppet doesn’t do service to the amount of artistry in the creation of these characters. Just an insane amount of work. Anyway, that one won an Oscar. And yeah, the NFB, the National Film Board is I believe the studio, if you want to call it that, although it’s not really that has won the most Oscars outside of Hollywood or been nominated for the most. I don’t want to I’ll be slapped on the wrist by somebody from communications if I’m not careful. But basically, yes, it’s a storied institution that is also a bit of a mystery, both at home and abroad, if you’re not careful, because it’s oh, yeah, I’ve heard of that. And there’s an allure that almost goes along with the National Film Board. And anyway, I am head of creative services, which means that I’m responsible for a team that is almost like an in-house ad agency and content creation team. So, yes, we produce ads for the institution itself. We help create advertising for some of the films. And we also create content on our social media channels, which anybody can go and find. And what is the mission of the NFB? What is its role? Yeah, that’s a good question. And so we’re part of the heritage ministry of the federal government. It’s actually not a separate. This is a strange thing for a lot of people to get their heads around. It’s because you’ll get public broadcasters in a lot of countries. And Canada has a public broadcaster, CBC. But this institution is unique in the world because there are funding organizations for film in the world and there are in Canada, too. There’s many. But this organization was created in 1939 by a guy called John Grierson, who was a Scottish immigrant who was asked by the prime minister at the time, basically, to set up a film board to culturally unite a country which is just huge, but not very populated, at least back then. I mean, now Canada has, I don’t know, 40 or 50 million people. It’s not as many as the US, but it’s still a reasonable population, but it’s spread pretty thinly or at least it’s concentrated in cities mostly. But if you think of back in 1939, it was really, how do people get news then? Yes. Newspapers. Radio was fairly established. But the idea was really to unite the cultural fabric somehow of a country which was still fairly young and growing. And if you’re living in the Maritimes, if you live in Nova Scotia, if you live in New Brunswick, something like that, how do you know what life is like in Alberta or Manitoba or British Columbia? Because that’s 3000 miles away. It’s a long, long, long way away. So that was the original goal. And then very quickly, what happened was the Second World War, because it was 1939. And then a different purpose was found, which was making newsreels. And just as Hollywood was co-opted for the same purposes, to basically make films to promote the war effort. To say, look, we’re all in this together. We’re fighting for these values, that kind of thing. So that was the first five years or so, that was what the National Film Board was doing. But then it really became focused back on its original mission of making documentary films. And then at one point, and I’m not the right person, I’m not the historian, we have a curator of our collection on my team who would be the person to interview about that. But you can go on our website, you can read the history. But at one point, there was a filmmaker called Norman McLaren, who started this animation unit. And I think he was the first person to win an Oscar for the National Film Board. And he is a pioneer of animation in cinema, just a very, very innovative thinker and creator. And he basically set up the second thread, as it were, to what we do in terms of weaving this cultural fabric. And then over the years, it’s expanded in different directions, contracted in different ways. But basically, we’re here to help Canadians, to help share Canadian stories to other Canadians and beyond our borders as well, whether it be through documentary, whether it be through animation, animated films, and also to promote Indigenous narrative sovereignty as well, because the Indigenous people of Canada were not even able to tell their own stories and their own history for the vast majority of the history of the country. And obviously, in the U.S., it’s a similar, if not maybe even worse situation. But who am I to judge? A big part of our mandate is to give voice to Indigenous storytellers, whether it’s documentary again or animation. And we have some amazing, amazing Indigenous-led content that is just incredible to watch. And I’ve learned such a lot. I mean, I’ve only been here 18 months. And even in these 18 months, I’ve learned such a lot. And working with these people is a privilege, whether they’re Indigenous filmmakers or not. Amazing. I have so many questions. I mean, the first question, well, there’s one question that’s got two parts, I think. One is where did this begin for you, this work? When did you discover that you could do this kind of work? And then how does it feel to be doing this for the country, in a way, versus the commercial work? You’ve been in agency, in creative direction, in the commercial space for a long time. But I’m wondering how it feels to be using those skills in this direction, and if there’s a way it feels different or operates differently. It feels great. I can tell you that. There’s so much in that, in what way does it feel great? Well, I mean, actually, so I think you were asking several questions or alluding to different questions. Yes. How is it, how did I, what exactly? So a little bit there was, what I wanted to ask is, so where you are now is you’re head of creative services, but you’re running an agency basically for Canada as a sort of a, probably. I mean, look, I don’t want to exaggerate. Yeah, I don’t want to overplay. I mean, yes, there’s the Canadian, the federal government of Canada has, and the provinces and the territories have their own communications that they do, and they may market different programs in different ways in terms of communicating them to the general public who are paying for them. However, we do have a responsibility to share the stories of Canadians to other Canadians and beyond our borders. Is it great when somebody stands on a stage or two people stand on a stage with Oscars in their hands in Hollywood and say the word Canada? Yeah, it’s great. And any country would say that. Every year you get somebody saying, I’m the first person to win from wherever or something. Yes, there’s definite value to that, but the main purpose is not that. The main purpose isn’t bragging rights overseas. It’s cool and nice and fun. And this is a time politically when clearly there are countries that are, I don’t want to say, well, I do want to say stepping up. I do want to say stepping up. I think Canada has stepped up and other countries that haven’t stepped up maybe as the world changes in terms of just making sure that the voices of their people are heard on a bigger stage. And is that what we are doing internationally? No, we’re not. We’re not in politics. We’re not a broadcaster either. We’re not journalists. So I can’t. What are you? We create films that share Canadian stories to Canadians. That’s literally what we do. It’s films. There’s long documentaries, short documentaries. We have a YouTube series coming out soon. There’s social media to reach younger people who maybe aren’t thinking of watching documentaries. Back in the day, meaning when I immigrated to Canada, NFB films would play in the cinemas because you would go to the cinema and there would be a short playing before the main feature. And often those films were either a documentary short or an animated short. And also our films would play on TV, which they don’t so much anymore. They do sometimes. But basically they fell off the radar a bit in terms of just the general cultural conversation, just because the media landscape changed. You don’t have that in cinemas anymore. Cinema attendance, I should say, has dropped. I’m almost certain since 1987. And then when you go there, what happens before a film is just loads of trailers and ads. Yeah. Whereas in the past, you would get trailers and ads, but also a free short film. You didn’t think about it too much. You just played and you were happy to watch this film, whether it was by the NFB or whoever. Pretty sure that wasn’t just in Canada. I think that was a thing. Yeah, that’s right. And that just stopped happening. But we have a streaming platform now and it’s for Canadians in the sense that I don’t think you can... Actually, it’s a good question. I don’t know if you’re overseas what you see exactly, because I’m not. But it’s free for Canadians. This is... That’s an NFB streaming platform? Or it’s a Canadian? It’s a free streaming platform for our entire catalogue. So if you’re in Canada and you’re sick of paying for this platform, plus that, plus that, plus that, and all the prices go up every six months, well, guess what? The National Film Board is free. I don’t believe a word you’re saying, John. Incredible richness of content there. You are guaranteed to find something on there that you will find interesting if you’re Canadian. I can’t say that if you’re from Albania, maybe not. What do you love about the work? Where’s the joy in it for you of all the different things that you do? Where’s the joy in it? That’s a multi-dimensional answer, I’m sure. Because this is... I mean, you were asking in a way how I got here to do this right now. So the joy is part of that career path where I’m somebody who likes to channel my imagination because I also write. I’ve written novels and screenplays. And so I think that I’m a creative person. I write nonfiction as well. Before working at the NFB, I was between jobs. I used to be a chief creative officer in a small international ad agency network. And in between those two jobs, I decided to launch a Substack newsletter. And I think that’s how we actually first encountered each other online. And write a bunch of articles on Medium and just keep my hand in. But not just for the sake of it, just because I really like it. I really like writing and creating. The cheesy term is content creation. But it is that. So anyway, I really like being able to channel my skill. I mean, I do have a certain skill for writing, for coming up with ideas and concepts. And so being able to channel that either non-professionally into things that I’m interested in or professionally into whatever I’m being paid to do is wonderful. Of course, I get a kick out of that. The interesting full circle thing is when I was at what would be the equivalent of the last, I don’t know necessarily the American terms for all these things, but in England, it’s just called college. So this would be the last two years of high school when you’re 17 and 18, I suppose. And I did a course called Communication Studies because I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. Having all that I had done up till then was your regular academic, studying English, studying history, geography, whatever. Math and science and stuff. And it was such a revelation, such an eye opener. And the very specific thing that got me interested in film was, and the teacher of that class was really good. I mean, I took this for two years. That’s the way it works in Britain is you decide on a thing for two years. Several different subjects. It was a film called Don’t Look Now from, I guess, 1973 with Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie, speaking of Canadian legends, Donald Sutherland, who is from Quebec. And the director of that film is called Nicholas Roeg. And in fact, Donald Sutherland named one of his sons. So not Kiefer. He has a, Kiefer has a brother called Rogue Sutherland, who is named after that director, Nick Rogue, R-O-E-G. And he was a genius filmmaker. And once this film was screened for the class and the teacher explained the editing, the symbolism, the way the camera moved, all these different aspects of filmmaking, which I don’t know, I was just a kid who watched films. It was, you just sat in front of the TV or sat in front of a cinema. And in fact, the town that I was living in, one of the towns I lived in between the ages of five and 11 didn’t even have a cinema. It was such a small town. So it was just what I was on the telly. I had no particular interest in film. And then this was a real eye opening and mind expanding moment or class or something. I was like, oh my goodness, the possibilities here, just human communication with this medium are unbelievable. So then I decided to do a degree in cinema. And that’s where it all finally came full circle because I became, when I moved here, I was a TV director and editor working in music television, which was, it was fun. Super fun. It was basically the Quebec equivalent of MTV. Amazing thing to do when you’re in your 20s. Incredibly fun. Meeting famous bands and artists and directing interviews and performances and stuff like that. Wonderful. But at one point it was time to do something else. But that one point was literally 10 years of doing that. And then I moved into writing and directing commercials for that TV station. And that’s how I got into advertising. And then basically rose to become a creative director. And as I said, this chief creative officer for this small international network before working at the NFB. So the National Film Board is where it came full circle back to film, to cinema. Oh, I see. Finally, I got to be in a job interview where actually one of the requirements was my degree, which had almost, well, I wasn’t, I hadn’t been in many job interviews, to be honest with you, but it was my third, second one or something. But still, many, many years later, it was what goes around, comes around. It was like, oh, finally, it’s coming in handy, my degree. I mean, that’s a silly way of putting it, because obviously it did come in handy in many, many ways. But yeah, so specifically, as far as this job is concerned, I love working with teams. As a writer, of course, you have to love working on your own. Otherwise, you couldn’t be a writer in any way. But I really love working with teams. I had worked with a team when I was a TV director. Obviously, I spent a period working freelance after that, where I was occasionally working with teams, because when you’re a freelancer and you get hired by an agency, suddenly you’re parachuted in and you’re working with a bunch of people, which is fun. But then working in that agency network, again, you have a team, you have a team of copywriters, designers, art directors, whoever. I really, I love the interplay of creative minds, I guess, I would say. And at the National Film Board, the filmmakers aren’t literally in-house. They’re not on staff. I mean, I think 70 years ago they were, but they propose a film and they may be, if they are, for example, animators, they may be here specifically in the head office in the building that I’m sitting in right now, because we have a lot of equipment to help create animation. There’s just, we have decades of history of all kinds, so many different kinds of animation. Some super wacky kinds of animation, like pin screens. I don’t know if you know what a pin screen is, but stuff you wouldn’t even think of. Those things that you can buy, even in souvenir shops where you can put your hand in and it makes these pins stick out. Well, imagine you could move those. So the impression of the hand that you left, you could move those pins, take a picture, move them a bit, take a picture. It’s absolutely insane. But there’s entire movies of that that have been made here. So anyway, all that to say, even though the filmmakers themselves aren’t specifically part of the teams here, we do get to work with them because we create content with them. And it’s very interesting, but the people who are on staff here are just wonderful creative people who love films. And even if they’re in the finance department or the legal department or whatever. There’s a wonderful sense of belonging to this organization and an understanding of the value of what we bring to the country, to the culture. That’s beautiful. I wanna segue a little bit to talk about your writing and the novels. And there’s a little bit of a, yeah, I guess, yeah, tell me a little bit about your writing. You’ve got four novels that you’ve written. When did you start writing them? Yeah, actually five. Well, six if you don’t count the one that was never saw the light of day. But which I still have a soft spot for. But yeah, I just, if I have an idea to write something, the medium is whatever I feel it should be. So if I have an idea for a screenplay, none of my screenplays have ended up being made into movies. They’ve been optioned a couple of times. And this is par for the course if you’re a screenwriter. I think the vast majority of what screenwriters write doesn’t end up on screen. But made a bit of money out of those at one point. But at one point I had an idea for the first novel that did see the light of day was back, I started writing that in 2002, when blogs were a thing, were beginning to become fairly popular. And I had this idea for a fictional blog, this character, this young woman who was working in a bar in Montreal, very closely based on my favorite bar, that’s still my favorite bar. She meets this guy who says he has this extra sense, the book’s called The New Sense. And it’s a psychological mystery after that. But I wrote it, I gave myself this challenge of writing it in real time, of publishing, actually I set up a website actually, or a blog basically. This was back when they were called weblogs. This was the name, that’s what they were. They were weblogs. You had enough time to say the whole word. If you were cool, you called them blogs. And so I gave myself the challenge of writing her blog because she’s trying to find, she has ended up getting pregnant with this mystery, mysterious guy. She has this baby and he’s disappeared. And so she’s creating this blog to try to reach out to the world to say, hey, telling the story and saying, does anybody know where he is? Because he seems to have been captured by this nefarious organization. He says he has these powers. Does he really? So that was the setup for that, where it forced me to write. It’s that episodic writing. It’s if Dickens or whatever, whoever, if you knew you had to be published in the newspaper the next week, you had to churn out the stuff. So it’s a pretty good motivation, even though I wasn’t getting paid to do it. I had set myself the motivational goal of doing this thing and I did it. And the really cool thing was there were some, there were people who would email who were actually concerned, right? This young woman couldn’t find this guy. And of course, I did respond because there was an email. It was played for real, right? And I even faked a Photoshopped birth certificate. I basically forged it. It’s War of the Worlds, right? A little bit, I suppose. But I mean, obviously, if somebody wrote in and they were, I wrote back to them saying, thank you for your concern, this is fiction because I don’t want people to be actually perturbed in real life. But it was super interesting that, and at one point when self-publishing became a doable thing, I then published it as a- I had to rewrite a bunch of stuff to make it readable as a book. But I published it as a book called The New Sense, which I believe you can buy on Amazon. It must still be there. I mean, it’s a print-on-demand thing, right? You can see my forged birth certificate, my forgery skills. I will dig around. The other thing I want to mention is that when you and I met, we did meet, I think it was probably, it was Substack. It was your letter, right? Was it called The Discomfort Zone? Yeah, exactly. The Discomfort Zone. It’s still there, but when I got this job, I had to, eventually I had to stop doing it because I was just, it wasn’t, I couldn’t do it justice, basically. Yeah, it was a wonderful thing, but you invited me to contribute in a way. I don’t know why you did that. Yeah, there was an interview. There was an interview segment. Yeah, exactly. It was very nice. But if you remember, there was, you asked me this question about AI, and I think that you were in the middle of writing here because your most recent novel really is about AI, right? And so it’s a bit of a thought experiment around AI. So this is what I want to hear your thoughts on, because you didn’t ask me quite point blank. What would you say to a CMO to make them choose qualitative research in the age of AI and synthetic data? This was probably a year and a half, two years ago, maybe. Oh, this was more than that. Yeah, this was at least two years ago. So it was early in that thing, and I hadn’t really, anyway, and you know this, but the short story of the version is that I really thought about it, and I really had an existential crisis around it, really confronting the degree to which, and this is a little bit of a provocation for you too, of how I’ve heard actually since people call about, call AI the fourth Copernican trauma. Have you heard that? Do you know what Copernican trauma is? So I think this is a Freudian idea that humanity has been decentered over and over and over again, Galileo. Oh, I see. It was the first, and then Freud did it, Darwin did it, and then Freud did it. And then we’ve been celebrating ourselves for being uniquely intelligent all this time. But now we have this crazy technology, which has grown, right? We don’t really understand how it works. And it’s actually, it demonstrates that we were not alone in the ability to do this thing. That thing that we thought made us special doesn’t in fact make us special. And so now we’re caught to the degree that people are paying any attention at all in a trauma response around this thing. Yeah, and so you invited me to ask that question. I really struggled with it. I think it made you wait weeks to try to write this piece. And I came up with something which was pretty good, I think. But anyway, you’ve got this book and this novel, which is a thought experiment about AI. And I remember your response to my experience also being a little bit, come on, I think that you’re just taking all of this a little bit too seriously. So where do you, so tell me about, tell us about the new novel and in what way it was a way of exploring AI. And do you think we’re all out of our minds? Yeah, so I had mentioned that I’d written five novels. So there was a young adult trilogy in between, so I don’t need to go into that. Again, you can look it up online. But then I started working on this novel. I started working on it in 2016, something like that. And it’s called 2084, which, I mean, I didn’t choose that year randomly, right? 1984 is the ultimate dystopia, right? So basically I’m imagining a utopian society 100 years after that fictional dystopia that is, there’s a whole political and economic background story to it of how we end up where we end up. That things don’t necessarily go well for the United States in the meantime. And by the way, since I started, well, here’s the thing, right? So I start writing this thing. And this was, so I start writing this actually before AI was really on the radar. It was 2015, 2016. I mean, AI existed, but it wasn’t the LLMs that we, the chat GPTs that we know now. But algorithms were a thing. And corporatized life, let’s just say, is a thing. Capitalism is obviously a thing. And basically anybody who writes anything science fiction-esque or anything where you’re projecting into the future, let’s just say, right? You’re gonna say that it’s a what if question, right? You’re using your imagination, what if? Okay, what is the end point of where we are right now? And you let that play out. So I let something play out in terms of North American society where it gets to what an entity, I don’t want to call it a government actually. You’ll see why, because the ruling entity is called the, of where I live and where you live is called the United Corporations of Canada. Oh boy. So yes, right. So the United States of America no longer exist. There’s a country called a Mexico where a bunch of s**t happened. And a bunch of American states decided to join the country to the North. But then that country morphed for various reasons into this entity called the United Corporations of Canada. So this is, so everything is being run, basically all your needs are taken care of by what ultimately is AI. The thing is, after I started writing the book, then I got hired by this advertising agency to do a really important job. So I set it aside, then COVID happened and we all have more time on our hands. And I went, oh crap, if I don’t get this thing finished, reality is gonna overtake my imagination. And I’ve not been proven wrong about this. I should have called it 2030. No, I mean, I should, well, I don’t know. Anyway, let’s just say s**t’s gone down. And I genuinely hope that this future, it’s speculative fiction, right? So it’s speculative. I’m not predicting things, right? But just like Margaret Atwood with the Handmaid’s Tale, you can look at something and go, oh, there’s certain aspects of this that you can see becoming a bit more real than you had hoped. So obviously it’s a, clearly, otherwise the book wouldn’t be interesting in any way. The utopian future ends up not being as utopian as it seems. So you have to read the book to figure out what’s going on there, but there’s a dark underbelly at minimum. But I would contend that that dark underbelly is present in the world we live in anyway, in the West. I don’t want to say even necessarily capitalism, because I don’t want to make it a super political thing. But the world we live in is a world that’s basically run by corporations more and more, let’s put it that way. And that seems to be accelerating. And AI is now a bigger part of that. And in fact, in the last six months, the world has changed. Oh my God. In how AI is being used in our lives, whether it’s in relatively benign ways, making silly videos, or what you would call slop. And interestingly, last week, OpenAI discontinued their video creation tool called Sora. One day to the next, we’re cancelling that. Your guess is as good as mine as to what went down. But obviously, militarily speaking, there’s another story there. And how close corporations are to government has changed a lot in the last year to 18 months, two years as well. So yeah, all of that is what my book’s about. And there are characters in it who are trying to navigate their way in this reality. And bad things look like they might happen at one point as they dig. We’re near the end. Maybe there’s a question here that brings some of this stuff together. I mean, what is the impact of AI on creativity or on culture? Like what’s the overlap or the intersection between your AI and the work that you’re doing now? Or how do you feel about its impact on the work that you do? There’s very little intersection with the work that I do either personally or professionally, or almost none. Because to be honest with you, the National Film Board has such a legacy. When I said that the filmmakers who just won an Oscar, they spent six years or whatever, it was hand crafting, making the stop motion film with insane amounts, not just them, the art direction, everything involved in that was so human, right? It seems almost as far away from AI as you can get. Yeah, it really is. And there’s, and again, there is some CGI in certain aspects of that film, especially animating the mouths of some of the characters, because the film exists in English and French. So the mouths are animated differently for each language, which is, it’s an almost insane undertaking actually. And it came out, they did, my colleagues did such an amazing job. But all that to say, we have such humanity behind the work that we do, that that is our superpower. There’s no way we should be trashing that. Like what would we have to gain from making AI, from using AI to create? Now, AI can be a tool for certain research. It’s not like we don’t have our heads in the sand. We’ve always been extremely technologically innovative at the National Film Board. So of course, anybody should be exploring the potential of any of this stuff. So anyway, the intersection is still pretty minimal, let’s just say, in reality. It doesn’t mean I don’t think about AI every day. And in my personal life too, it’s pretty minimal in terms of output. In terms of my thoughts about it, and the question I was asking you, and that you’re in a way throwing back at me, it’s extremely interesting because I’ve had a lot more thoughts over the last two or three years about not just intelligence, because intelligence is actually, it’s pretty hard to define. And there’s different, the chat GPT that people think of as AI is super different from the AI that can play chess. It’s a totally different thing, right? And it’s just the nature of conscious, what concerns me actually is discussions around AI being potentially conscious or aware or sentient. Like these are all words that are thrown around that don’t have an agreed upon definition. And I wrote an essay recently that has not been published anywhere yet about consciousness and how it relates to our socialization. So this might be actually a conversation for another time because I know from your anthropological background, I’m sure you can have, I’d be interested to know what you think about all this. But basically that what philosophers would call qualia, which is the phenomenological experience of the world that we have, when we feel pain or we experience the color blue, or we experience the taste of something or far more complicated things than that, which are like the color of our lives, basically emotionally and perceptually, that the basic assumption is that those qualia are individually instantiated, let’s just say, like you have your experience of the color red, it may not be the same as mine, but it’s probably pretty similar because one of us could have some mutation of our eye, retina or something that would mean that we experienced it differently. But averaging it out, it’s basically a similar thing from one person to another. Now there’s a philosophical question about how do you really know that? Well, okay, good question, fine. But if you’re just looking at purely the experience that would be called sentience, there’s my, sorry, a bit of a long-winded answer, but my current view of this is that the human experience of the world is actually unique compared to other creatures on the planet because it is based on our social interaction. I mean, no man is an island, right? Is an obvious way of looking at that. That’s nothing new to look at reality, our reality that way, right? But in my mind, we have a genome and a phenome, right? So the genome is your DNA, but then how it’s expressed and how you grow in the world is your phenome, how you turn out, right? That phenome is irrevocably social. We cannot escape that. But what I’m getting at in this essay is that it’s at down to the level of experience, pure experience of the world. If I’m telling you you’re experiencing the color red and you cannot escape the cultural definition and social definition, however you want to put it, of the color red, you can’t escape it. Yes, you’re seeing wavelengths of light and so is some other animal that can perceive that same spectrum, but their experience, and I’m not saying animals aren’t conscious or not sentient, that’s the point, is yes, they are. But we are in a qualitatively different way in the sense that flight, the evolution of flight for life forms was qualitatively different from what existed before flight evolved. The first animal that could fly properly, self-propelled flight, not just gliding, and obviously evolution happens over a long time and there’s in-betweeny, creatures and stuff like that, right? We have those flying squirrels and stuff, flying foxes or whatever today. Once you get flight, that is then a qualitative difference of experience in the world that evolved among completely different branches of the biological tree of nature or whatever it’s called, right? So reptiles can do it, but insects can do it, right? And obviously birds can do it, right? And humans can do it because we socially got together and built machines that could do it. We built technology, right? That you could not do as an individual, nothing. We can’t do a single thing as an individual. And I contend that if you were literally raised by wolves, you basically wouldn’t be human. Your genome would be, but your phenome would not be at all, your phenotype, forget it, right? You would see red, but you wouldn’t know what it was. You would have the experience, but it would be so basic, right? It would be just purely basic. So getting back to AI, my concern is that people think that AI will be able to do that. And who am I to say whether it can or it can’t, but the concern is that we would rush to anthropomorphize. I mean, we already anthropomorphize anything. That’s just a part of human nature apparently, right? Whether it’s clouds or your dog or something, right? But it’s so easy to do that. LLM is a program to fool us into thinking that they are being human. And to a certain extent, they can have conversations, right? That’s, hey, dogs can’t. So this must be more human than a dog. You could easily end up thinking. And of course it’s been fed with the entirety of human culture. So to a certain extent, it has been socialized, right? But the it is still just a very, very specialized algorithm, right? And what really concerns me when I hear, I hear it all the time or I read it all the time of, oh no, we should be careful because if AI becomes conscious, it becomes sentient, then we’re going to have to treat it really nicely or we’re going to have to give it rights or something, right? We’re going to have to, we can’t be cruel to it. And whenever I hear that, I think, oh my goodness. We kill so many sentient beings, billions every day. You’re worried about this, this thing that is made of silicon. That’s your concern. My other concern, in terms of cruelty, it’s like, yeah, good God. No, nobody’s more cruel than humans, right? Like it doesn’t come more cruel than a human being. And you can just benignly be munching on your burger or drinking your milk or whatever it is, right? Worrying about being cruel to the AI. And we’re worrying about being cruel to the AI. Oh my goodness. And I mean, forget about being cruel to people, right? Look at the news, right? So that is not something people should be concerned about. What they should be being concerned about, and this is what brings it back a little bit full circle to corporations and what I deal with in my book is, corporations have what’s called, legally personhood, right? So that was a probably understandable move at some point in history to in terms of liability, right? Like it enabled a lot of capitalism to create the world that we know today. And there are lots of advantages to that world, right? In terms of human suffering, for sure, lots of benefits. But it’s a tricky, slippery slope. It becomes very wriggly and you can’t get hold of a corporation really, because it’s, what is it? It just keeps on going, right? There is no, there’s no automatic lifespan to a corporation. And it just grows and grows. And hence in my book, it’s the United Corporations have taken over a country for very benign reasons. Everything’s great. They all want the best for everybody. But what concerns me, especially in terms of American law is, as soon as if AI had rights like a person and like a corporation, and maybe it is a corporation that is an AI, who knows? Then it would have, by definition, the right to bear arms in America. And that’s not, well, that film exists, right? That’s called Terminator, right? I didn’t invent that future of the AI becoming sentient, obviously. So that is, what concerns me about AI is what the people let the computers do, let’s just say, because I’d rather just call it computers because it is just computation at the end of it. Intelligence, whatever, is it intelligent? Yeah, it’s intelligent. Depends what you mean by intelligence. So are bees, so ants. There’s plenty of examples of intelligence in the animal kingdom. But our intelligence is distributed intelligence in terms of we are fundamentally social and AI does that a bit. And obviously the internet does that a bit. It’s distributed right now. So there’s never ending conversations can be had about that. But what do we do about it? I just think there’s huge red flags that are perhaps being waved and maybe even in the wrong direction, these flags. It’s no, no, don’t worry about being cool to the AI. I mean, so we’re right at the end of time, but I’m just to cross the T and dot the I. My view is that you’re not experiencing any insecurity about the humanity of the work that you do in the face of AI. No, not at all. Because if you want to write an email and you’re not that good at writing, use AI, go for it. If you are, it’s beautiful. If you’re from another country and you don’t speak English and you want to communicate what you have to share and convey your intelligence that you have, sure. It’s amazing. It’s in the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the babble fish. It’s the thing you can put in, it’s the universal communicator device, right? That is a dream. That’s the thing that we dreamed of when we were kids. We dreamed of having a thing in our pocket that would give us the answers to all the questions. And AI is an extension to that. But when you push it far enough, it still averages out enough. It can’t see into the future. It can’t imagine the future. And if we were going to have another conversation, I would start off talking about imagination because that is the key thing. It doesn’t exist in time, right? It just is. You can turn it off and turn it on again. It has no awareness of time whatsoever. You can program in a clock, right? But it doesn’t mean anything. Time doesn’t mean anything to a computer or AI. It means something to us. And we are able to project into the future, which is one of our superpowers is this imagination. But even on a social level, because we hear something from somebody, we think about something that happened in history, we put it all together. And those are other people who are informing us as an individual. But even then, we’re going to tell, I’m telling you about it now. There’s other people listening, right? Who knows what comes out of this conversation? Somebody else is going to hear. That is what humans do. And that is not what AI does. It’s just something qualitatively different. But AI does a bunch of useful things, no question about it. But being replaced, yeah, if you’re doing coding, yeah, but that’s the same as saying that the motor car replaced the horse. Yeah, sure, some stuff will be replaced. But that isn’t, it doesn’t replace the thing that humans do that makes us human. I think that’s the key thing to hang on to. And I have kids who are going to be entering the workforce in the not too distant future. And we have conversations about this. You’ve got to be smart. You don’t want to be learning to drive the buggy in 1920, to have the horse and the whip and stuff. That’s probably not a great career path. So be smart, but don’t, I wouldn’t freak out about that specifically. But we could, yeah, this is a never-ending conversation. Yes, and I would love to do this again. Except it’s at the end. We’ll take, what’s that? It’s never-ending, but it is actually at the end. It is the end. We’ll announce the never-ending nature of this right at the end. But thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It’s so much fun talking with you. And I really appreciate you accepting the invitation. Oh, yeah, no, thank you. I really suspect I might have babbled on a bit too much. And I hope it’s interesting for somebody at some point. No, it was wonderful. And I would love to do it again. Imagination and that essay, I think you shared with me actually about— Oh, it’s true, I did. So we can do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is my little pet project right now. Who knows where that will lead? It’s beautiful. Cool. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you, Peter. Talk soon. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Indi Young on Listening & Cognition

Indi Young [https://www.linkedin.com/in/indiyoung/] is a researcher, author, and consultant focused on understanding how people think. She developed the mental models method and is the author of Practical Empathy [https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Empathy-Collaboration-Creativity-Your/dp/1933820489], Mental Models [https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Models-Aligning-Strategy-Behavior-ebook/dp/B004VFUOQ0?ref_=ast_author_dp&th=1&psc=1], and Time to Listen [https://www.amazon.com/Time-Listen-Invention-Inclusion-Assumptions-ebook/dp/B0B5NMLTF8?ref_=ast_author_dp&th=1&psc=1]. Her work emphasizes listening, qualitative rigor, and designing systems that support different ways of thinking in practice. And, she has a great substack, Indi Young [https://indiyoung.substack.com/]. So I start all these conversations with the same question, which I borrowed from a friend of mine who’s also a neighbor, and she helps people tell their story. And she has this question, which I just think is really beautiful, so I use it, but because it’s so big, I over-explain it before I ask. Because I want to make sure that you know that you’re in absolute control and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? I love that that question comes from your neighbor, too. I come from, well, my neighbor is actually a Buddhist meditation teacher, so neighbors are influential. Neighbors is a good word. I would say that I come from the edges of things. I am not a typical anything, and this is true of my entire family. Well, not entire, you know, there’s always, maybe most of the family is black sheep, and there’s a few who aren’t, I don’t know. But, yeah, I’ve never really been the person that anything was designed for. I remember sitting in math class in seventh grade, understanding what the teacher was talking about, but understanding also that the students weren’t understanding, but being way too shy to raise my hand and say, Miss Betsy, if you had just said this, then I think these guys wouldn’t be asking these questions. You know, it’s just I’m not smarter than anyone. I just see things. I can see things, I guess. I don’t know. Everybody can see things. But one of the things that’s interesting is I just visited my dad’s cousin, 87, last weekend, along with my cousin. And we were listening to family stories. And my dad’s cousin is full of vigor and has had a very adventurous life that is not like any other life you would expect. She was a horse trainer and rider, specifically Arabian, specifically endurance trail riding, which is a reenactment of the Pony Express. The original one of those was called Tennis Cup. And it runs from, it’s a hundred mile race that runs across the Sierras following the Pony Express mail trail that used to go across the Sierras. And she was instrumental. I mean, she rode that a bunch of times. I remember as a kid, I would look at the pictures of her going over Cougar Rock, which is an iconic place to take a photo of a horse, jumping up over a rock. And I was just in love. And so, of course, I also followed that path for a little bit. I am not rich enough to have horses on my own. But that was fabulous. She went on, I mean, she ended up working at a county jail for a while. She had just all these different adventures. And one of the things that I keep getting reminded of when I’m visiting her is that the family on her side, on my dad’s side, came to California in 1849. The third year that the Carson Pass was open. I think it was, I don’t know, maybe it wasn’t Carson Pass. It was a little bit north of that. But they came over at the exact same month as the Donner Party. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And we have family stories about how typically awful the Donner Party was and how poorly they treated their Native American guides. And stories of how we built, I don’t know, we were, the family was doing something to build. It’s called, it’s the Greenewalt Party. That’s the name of the party that your family came to? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we’re, apparently, and we were the ones who, we went over, we built something so that we could go over it. And the Donner Party wanted to just use our stuff and whatever. Oh, wow. It’s, yeah. And we’re like, no, we’re going to go over it first. And then you’re going to come right on our heels because there’s a big storm coming. And apparently they were miffed and didn’t and stayed. And so you’re like, wow, OK. Few weeks later, we were part of the people coming back to help rescue them. Oh, my gosh. Right. So I think that, I mean, it’s a great little story because it talks about where we come from. I never, yeah, it’s not, we’re not a competitive minded family. We are a let’s cooperate and collaborate and work with our neighbors and get things done so that we all can move forward kind of a family. And that has completely bled into everything I’ve done in my career. I’m trying to help. Originally I grew up in Silicon Valley. It was not called that when I grew up, nor were there any of the tech bros there. There was no money there. There was Hewlett Packard. And I remember Apple being down the road from us in its very original form with a little rainbow Apple logo, although they didn’t. I mean, you only saw the rainbow logo Apple in some brochure because I never saw the actual logo on a building. I don’t think they were big enough for that. Where were you personally? What was the town you grew up in? Oh, that was called Los Altos. Yeah, I call it Los Altos now because there’s no way I can move back. Yeah, but it was like everybody that I knew, I got into computer science not because I wanted to, because it was something. So the story, once I got into it, let me tell that part of it. Once I got into it, everybody was a deep thinker. Everybody thought things through. That was the flavor of the people who were getting into the early computing. And it wasn’t something where I want to make money quick. That was not the goal. The goal was to figure out how these machines might be used for certain things and what that would look like and what the repercussions might be or how we could build on that. It was always about building on things. And then it did start shifting and I can tell you stories about that. But my whole goal with my career is to try to teach Silicon Valley to think more broadly to think about the edges, because the edges are half your market, literally half your market. And I have heard VPs and I don’t know, CTOs and stuff these days stand up and say, oh, we’re not interested in that market because that’s not enough income for us, not enough profit for us. It’s not worth it. Even though, you know, A, it should be worth it because they’re humans, too. I have this good example with a Netflix subscription plan, but it’s worth it because they’re human, too. But it’s also worth it because it’s not going to cost you that much. It’s software. It’s not going to cost you that much. So, yeah. Yeah. I’m curious. I want to get into those stories, but I always enjoy hanging out in the origins. So you’re in Los Altos. What did you, did you have a, do you have a recollection of what you wanted to be when you grew up? Yeah, I wanted to be a writer. I loved reading. Yeah, I think, you know, all through grade school, especially fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, I was the student where the teacher would say, speak up. We can’t hear you. But they would also come to me and say, hey, you might want to read this book. And so I read, you know, I read Tolkien. I read Dune. I read all of that before I was out of fifth grade. I just loved reading. And of course, I go back and reread them. And then I go back. I have a list. This list is in Excel spreadsheets. That’s a very core thing to me is spreadsheets. The list goes all the way back to the 70s of books that I’ve read. And then I go back and I reread them and I get a completely different message out of them. And then I’ll go back and I’ll reread them. And this still happens. This happens with, I just reread the N.K. Jemisin Stone Sky series or whatever. It’s a series of three books. And it’s speculative fiction. We don’t call it science fiction anymore because that was the old guy’s way, you know, science. It’s like, no, this is more about understanding how people interact and how people would interact and what society would look like and what government would look like in the future. And in that series, it’s, you know, what, 40,000 years in the future of Earth? And we’re right back where we were during colonial times with respect to the government and the slaves and all of this. So interestingly, I read that for the first time, probably right before the pandemic, maybe a couple of years before the pandemic. And I just reread it last month. And a whole new message comes out. I mean, I caught all, I’ll highlight these things. And then I caught a bunch, you know, I caught a bunch of stuff the first time through. But then I’m like, oh, wait, there’s the lower message. And so next time I read it in another, you know, decade, I’ll find even more message. It would be really awesome. So reading has always been my thing. I wanted to be a writer. I remember my dad, we were standing in the kitchen. I think we were drying dishes or something. And my dad said, come here, I want you to watch this show. This show is called Nova. And it was the very first iteration of Nova, which was, you know, a science show, an early version of a science show. And in their intro, they had some computer graphics, early computer graphics, showing the logo coming together. And he’s all, you know, they did that on a computer. Would you be interested in computers maybe? Because I think you could earn a living on computers and then have writing as your hobby. Something to do on the side. He is also the man who told me, get into something where you provide a service. And instead, well, I don’t know, I provide a service, but nobody wants my service right now with AI. Nobody wants to know about the humans. Yes, yes. Well, now we’re talking. So how do you, let’s catch this up. So you tell us where you are now and the work that you’re doing. What is the work that you’re doing in your office? Well, the work that I do, of course, has many levels at it. And so it’s hard to explain. But I was with my team, I’ve got this Tuesday team of folks who are mostly laid off or retired, who get together and we love thinking together. And we’re trying to think together about a better way to describe this that works in the world of AI. And basically, it is that most of the products that we’re creating are designed to be an average. It is, here’s the product, most people can use it. I think there’s stories around why I think it derived that way. But most people don’t think the same way. They think in wildly different ways, even though they’re approaching the same goal, the same purpose or intent. And that’s completely lost. And in a digital product, as opposed to a physical product, but even those can change. And I’ve got stories about that, washing machine stories. In a digital product, it’s really easy to have multiple versions of it that match different thinking styles. So one of the key differences that I do is most teams look at what they’re doing from the point of view of the product, the solution, the service, the thing, the policy that we’re making. And I’m building a policy and it’s all about policy. And they forget. And actually, Brian O’Neill has this newsletter that I just read the first paragraph and it exactly says this. It’s like he does it for data dashboards and stuff. It’s like all the data is great, all the interface is great, but they forget. Way back in the beginning to ask the people what they were trying to get done. They forget that perspective. And that’s what my whole career has been about. It’s like, let’s go figure out that perspective. I don’t care what you’re building. When I come in to a client, they really want to show me what they’ve got. And I said, listen, let’s leave that for the later. I don’t want to look at it now. I don’t care. What I want to do is talk to you about what you think people are trying to get done. And let’s find those people so I can find out how they’re thinking about it. Right. I’m interested in their cognition. The way that I teach how to listen involves layers. I use an analogy of a spherical candy that you might have eaten that has layers. As a kid, you suck off the outer layer and it’s a different color underneath or a different flavor or something. And that’s basically when we’re interacting with each other conversationally, we tend not to go deep. We just stick with those outer layers. And that’s how we think about communicating. Dave Gray had this book called Liminal Thinking a while ago. He has this cartoon and a little sketch he drew where basically two people are trying to communicate with each other, but they’re only communicating with that outer layer. And so a lot gets missed. The foundational stuff gets missed. I work with teams who are sick to death of trying to fight with the other team to get things done. A lot of strife and a lot of friction. And I teach them how to listen. And all of a sudden, they can see that even they are just throwing spears back at the other people. They’re not attempting to get deep. Neither party is attempting to understand what actually is going through your mind and what actually might be emotional reactions you’re having, what actually might be personal rules that you’ve got under there. And once you get to that layer, all of a sudden, you’re like, oh, yeah, no, we’ve got the same personal rules in general. Or, oh, no, we’ve got very different personal rules. So let’s have a discussion about that. I’m sorry. There’s so many questions. When do people pick up the phone? I’m just so excited to talk to you about your work and about how you help people listen. I love the analogy of the lollipop, if that’s what it was, and that we stay at the surface and listening isn’t a skill or it’s not an instinct for a lot of organizations. I’m curious, what gets those organizations to the point that they ask for help? What do you find? When do you find people come to you? That is exactly what my Tuesday team and I are exploring right now. Because all in the past, people have come to me because they are at the point that they understand this is missing already. They’re already converts in a certain respect. They may have read something of mine. They may have seen a talk. I’ve given a lot of talks. I would admit that a lot of my talks are at a level that demands that the audience understand some more deep concepts. I’m realizing I need to learn how to speak at a more outer layer to draw people in, which I need to learn how to do. But there’s always something. So that’s how they would find out about me. Or it would be somebody telling somebody, oh, I was working with this new method. It increased our qualified leads in the worst winter month that we ever, normally we don’t get a lot of leads, but it increased it up and above the levels that we get in the summer by a third or two thirds. And people are like, oh, interesting. How did you do that? And so that’s how it worked. I’ve never had to, I’m not a very good marketer. Well, I have a lot of identification with that. I’m curious, because you talked about when you entered this world, that everybody was a deep thinker. People weren’t in it for money. And you didn’t start out as a listener or a researcher. I’m just curious, is that right? I mean, I’m just curious, what’s the arc of your career been and how did you come to really cherish listening and make it a focus for you? In the very beginning, as a young software engineer, you’re right, I was not doing that. I was on a team. This is spectacular. I wanted to move somewhere where I didn’t know the street names. And so I accepted the job in Denver, which was actually, it turned out to be a job in, it was in the aerospace industry. And it ended up being a job in a tiny Air Force Base way the hell out on the planes. But I landed my first day with five other women engineers. And I’m like, hey, this is weird. We’re all saying this to each other. This is weird. It was the guy who was, probably he was a feminist, probably, because we didn’t speak in those words, but probably he’s like, damn it, we need to hire people. These are fantastic thinkers. And so he’s like, I’m just going to do a glut on gender, gender and specific on women. And so we show up looking at each other, like, wow, how did this happen? This is great. We worked together. It was a really fascinating job until I saw at this Air Force Base, a guy with his, he has pimples. So he’s still, he’s not 20 yet. And he has this big automatic machine gun looped over his shoulder in the cafeteria. And I’m like, he swings around to get something. We’ve got his tray in front of him. And I’m like, dude, you’ve got potato salad on your gun. OK, this is enough. I’m out of here. What was the job there? What were you there to do? We were writing software. We were writing software specifically, I think I can talk about this, to make a testbed for Star Wars. And Star Wars was all these satellites that were supposed to shoot down missiles before they arrive on our soil. So it was, I mean, we had a five star general, of course, come because we’re five women in a giant cubicle. And they’re like, I got to see this, right? So different in those days. But it was, I thought it was interesting work because I really hate war. And I thought, well, let’s make it a game. Let’s make it a game that the people who love war can play without killing our people, our young people who still have pimples on their face and don’t deserve to die. But that’s not what it was. And I was done. And so the next thing that I did was basically join a company that was a spinoff from Cray. So I had been using, we were programming with the Cray computer. It’s a supercomputer back in those days. And there was a spinoff that was like, okay, we’re going to do a supercomputer, but with an operating system and with an interface. And so I was in charge of the interface. What would the visual interface look like? And that was super fun. And again, I mean, you get a chance to deeply think about things. But at the same time, it was a really small group of us. What was the state of the art for user interface? Was there any? Oh, that’s actually worth talking about. Motif, I think was the name of the operating system. It was a visual operating system. So I don’t know if you know, Xerox Star was the first visual operating system before Apple. And we had, and in college, I went to Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, and we had a bunch of Xerox Star machines that we got to, we were programming with them in the beginning. And it was a windowed interface, which was fantastic. I also love the fact that it had a way to get at the keyboard and use different keyboards. So if you didn’t want the QWERTY keyboard, you could use a Dvorak keyboard, which was supposed to be more efficient in terms of the English language. And the QWERTY is more mechanically efficient, meant for typewriter. And so you could just change it. I was a touch typist, so you don’t look at the keyboard. And you could learn how to use a Dvorak keyboard by having the little icon of where the keys are laid out on the screen. It was beautiful. Xerox did some great work. So anyway, we were building something. I think I ended up going with the operating system that I think was Sun Microsystems had pioneered. And it had the word tool in it. And I can’t remember why. But it didn’t have color in it. And the other one I think was called Motif. And it had color in it. And that one took off because it had color. But the one that Sun Microsystems did, and I think it was them. I could be wrong. I loved it better because they had more thought behind it. For example, the scroll bar. So right now, think of a scroll bar. You have to go find where it is. Move your mouse to it. Grab it. Move it down. Move it up. Figure out what speed it’s scrolling at. Use your little scroll bar thingy on your mouse, which I’ve never learned how to use, to affect that. And the Sun Microsystems one, it was not that. It was an elevator. On a cord. And the elevator had, at the top, a little way to just go up little bit by little bit. And at the bottom, another way to go down by a little bit, little bit. But you were keeping your mouse there. You didn’t have to move your mouse all over the place. And then you could move it up and down the cord if you wanted to go farther and faster. It was just some little bits. That’s the one I can remember. This was a long time ago. And so at what point did you, I mean, you develop mental models. At what point did you become a person that was really committed to listening? It was pretty much around that time I started thinking, okay, we are designing for other software engineers or scientists even. It was called SSI, supercomputer. Shoot, I can’t remember. It was called SSI, whatever it was. But at that point, if they really wanted to double down on software, who else are we programming for? At that point, as a programmer, you were expected to go understand the standard operating procedure, the standard way people did a thing. And so I would go and talk to all these people and try to figure out the standard way they would do a thing and then figure out a good interface for it. So that’s the point where I realized, okay, this is what it’s like to talk to people. But just a little bit later, I was working as a consultant. So I switched off out of SSI and became a consultant using something called PenPoint as an operating system. It was the early tablet. And sorry, I keep pausing because I’m trying to remember what was the word for that? We would bring the tablet around wherever we would go. We would go more places than I go now, out to a cafe or on a train or whatever. And people are like, what’s that? And it was a tablet that recognized handwriting. So for example, doctors, there was a particular doctor that hired me to help him figure out how to do patient charts in a way that would work for him. And he would carry it around. Recently, there was an Apple ad or something I saw that it felt like an alternate or parallel timeline that it seemed there was a real excitement about being able to turn handwriting into digital text around that time. And it just never took off. That was early 90s. I think it didn’t take off because NEC was the one who was providing the hardware. And they bought the company that did the software and killed it. There’s always some blunt explanation. There’s always something, yeah. And anyway, now we’ve got voice. So it was interesting because I was starting to work with the individuals who wanted to craft this thing in a way that matched the way they were thinking. There was one client who owned a bunch of satellites that would take pictures of the earth and they would sell them to the government and other corporations that would do things like mapping. This is well before Google Maps. And it was somewhat expensive. It was a business, right? And they hired me because they wanted maybe to expand. This is actually one of the ways you asked me that question earlier. One of the ways that people will reach out to me is because we want to do something different. We think there’s an opportunity to do something different. I’ve got a lot of stories around that. And this particular satellite company, they must have wanted to expand their market or something. They might have sensed that bigger things were coming. Who knows, right? And so I’m there. I’m like, well, give me a bunch of your clients and let me go talk to them. And give me some people that you’re talking to to potentially become clients. And let me go talk to them too, half and half, because I don’t want to just talk to people who use this stuff. But at that point in time, they were using that stuff to do something else. It wasn’t using the solution, the imagery. And we’re going to talk about getting the imagery. It was, what are you trying to do with the imagery? Right? And how do you think about it? And after all of that, and I put the information together, I’m like, oh my God, there’s a huge mismatch. There’s some stuff that, and I did this vertically instead of horizontally, like the skyline. The first one was vertical. And it’s like, yeah, the vendor has this and the people are trying to do this. Only I had it, the people first. The people are trying to do this. The vendor supports it. People are trying to do this. The vendor supports it. People are trying to do this. Crickets. And I’m like, there’s your opportunity. And the other guy who brought me on, the other consultant brought me on to do the research. I remember we were sitting in the taxi going back to the Pasadena airport. And he’s like, oh my God, you have to copyright that. That is amazing. And I’m like, I’m not going to copyright it. I want it to live and grow. If you copyright it and you try to control it, then it dies. So I’m not going to copyright it. It’s something that I’m going to expand into the world. Right? So there’s just some, certain things about the way that I think are not because of my family. We’re not competitive that way. We are collaborative. We’re moving forward. So that’s, yeah. How has the practice changed or how has the world changed? I mean, it’s been, you’ve been at this for quite a while and I’m just, I’m always curious to hear people talk about, I mean, I’m always interested in the role of listening, the role of qualitative. What’s your sense of how it’s changed in your career? There’s a few changes that have happened. The early change was that people started to realize that qualitative is just as valuable as quant. In the early days, people thought there was one spectrum and the good stuff quant was at the good end and the bad stuff, the iffy, guessy stuff was the qual and it was at the bad end. And they started realizing, no, they’re both their own spectrum. They both have an empirical end and they both have a subjective and we’re like, you’re guessing. And there was a lot of qual out there where people would go and listen to one or two stories and they would say, hey, here’s our pattern. And I was like, no, that’s subjective qual. And so I think one of the big changes was that there were a bunch of people who realized there was qualitative data that was actually verifiable and repeatable and therefore empirical. The whole reason for qualitative, the whole way that you can find out whether it’s verifiable is whether patterns come out of it, which is not something that people using quant could understand easily. I’ve always been a words person. I wanted to be a writer. The SAT, I got 100% on the English side. Words are awesome. I think I’m losing a lot of them now. But yeah, so I think that was one of the changes is that, yay, people are getting it, that there is value in these words and that social sciences are still a science. I want to linger here a little bit because this is where things get, I guess, significant in a way. I mean, you call yourself a qualitative data scientist, which seems very intentional. And I’m just wondering, what is the role or what is the value of qualitative for somebody who is mostly in the quantitative realm, to your point? I mean, I encounter lots of people. I love your analogy. It’s a spectrum. The qualitative is on the fuzzy, subjective side of things. But how do you help people see that they’re distinct? And what is the value that you articulate around qualitative? What does it do that nothing else does? What qualitative does, and when I try to convince people it works and it doesn’t work, right? There are some people for whom they will never trust it. But what qualitative brings is an understanding that people are like little galaxies and they have a lot going on in their minds. And what’s going on in their minds cannot be reduced to a Cartesian map. It changes. It’s what you think changes based on your inputs, your context, your mood. You don’t do the same thing twice, necessarily. There are guiding principles or personal roles, I call them, that underlay this. And most of the time, people don’t mess around with their personal roles. They stick with them. When they are messing around with them, it’s when you feel like, the words like your hands start to sweat a little bit because I’m going against this thing that I always believe is the right thing to do. So this might be a good time to talk about the pieces. So one of the things that I do when I’m convincing someone is I say, there’s a bunch of words that people say, which are just that outer layer. And that outer layer, as many surveys as you’d like, is going to produce a bunch of numbers that mean nothing because your survey is about those outer layers. And you’re going to make a decision based on this survey that people, really like blah, blah, blah. But like is a preference. And the preference is going to change based on who they’re next to. Right? You’re going to make a business decision based on it, and it’s not going to go down so well. And you’re going to forget that you made that decision because it was the result of a survey about preferences or a survey that maybe even there was a time when surveys were terrible because people always thought, I’ve got Survey Monkey. I can just write a bunch of questions. So no, but they would try to write surveys about what’s going on in people’s minds. And you cannot capture it in multiple choice. Right? Those days, I would say the only good survey is an essay. And people don’t want to fill in the blank because that’s a lot of writing. So the only good survey is to do listening sessions. And the only good survey I say now is a survey where these are facts you would say about yourself. Right? Not personal rules, not preferences, not inner thinking, not emotional reactions, but facts like I am five foot four. And why must we be so careful about the questions that we ask in that way? Because I’m alluding to the idea that when people try to lay out someone’s inner world into a survey format, they’re never going to capture all the potentials. So every time I look at a survey, let’s take... Okay. I also hate these universal personality types. There’s this intent or love of let’s have a model of how everybody thinks. Horoscopes, Myers-Briggs, whatever personality test you took at the last place you were employed so you’d get along with your fellow employees better. Right? There’s no universal. There’s no universal. So Myers-Briggs, I keep, my cousins were really into it. So I try taking it and it’s like a hundred multiple choice questions. There are no answers for me. There was maybe one in 10 questions. I’m like, oh yeah, that answer matches me. But the rest of it, it doesn’t match. Yeah. It’s just not there. Right? So you cannot collect that kind of information in survey format. I don’t think it’s ethical to do it because you’re doing a disservice to the organization who’s trying to use it. Or you’re just building some sort of nice scammy universal model about personalities and selling it. So, okay, whatever. Doing a listening session is the only way and doing it carefully and beautifully is the only way to get an understanding of a person’s inner world. So in a listening session, we bring no list of questions. We only bring a germinal question. Germinal meaning a little seed and from which the conversation is going to grow. And that germinal question and every listening session is framed around a thing someone’s focused on addressing. I call it a purpose because I want to say something higher than a goal. I don’t know if you’ve heard of jobs to be done as a methodology. Yeah. They say it’s, somebody’s job and their jobs are always very discreet, very small. In a listening session, I go with a little bit bigger jobs, right? So to speak, I don’t like to use the word job. They have it. I don’t like to use the word goal either because a lot of these things are things that you never are going to ever accomplish. You’re just working at them as a part of your life. I did a listening, a study for a company making washing machines. And our study was about how do you take care of your clothing? And in fact, the other part of it, that germinal question is that we focus it on the past. So how did you take care of your clothing over the past month or two? Okay. Also, you’ll notice we didn’t ask about the solution, the washing machine. We asked about what people were trying to get done. Okay. So there’s a bunch of stuff that goes into that thinking that goes into the way we form a germinal question. And that also influences recruiting and who we want to hear from. There’s other things that the company is interested in, in terms of how they want to expand or how they want to innovate that goes into recruiting as well, but it doesn’t go into the germinal question. Yeah. I’m doing a study right now or helping a team form a study with doctors diagnosing stroke. They’ve done a ton of other kinds of studies. They want to do a study in this methodology because it’s maybe going to be the key to them understanding what’s going on. Yeah, I’m curious. I’m so curious to know more about what you do in the listening session. You say that there’s no guide, there’s no list of questions, but how do you talk about your approach? What happens there and what’s your role as the interviewer, the researcher? How do you even think about what you’re doing there? Can you just say more about what’s happening in there and what you’re doing? You are free in there. I have heard Sam Ladner and Steve Portigal in their podcast. They have this great podcast, something like Off the Path. In one of them, they’re like, God, I wish I could just be free. But no, they’ve got these lists of questions and they’re both incredible researchers and they get a lot of stuff, but they are stuck within that list of questions. That’s mainly because their client wants to know about the solution and we haven’t framed it by what are people trying to get done. I think they do frame by what people are getting done, but it isn’t from a cognitive point of view or it isn’t from... I don’t know. It’s interesting. They actually do a really good job within the constraints that they’re in. I don’t have an academic background in anthropology, so I didn’t know that you had to be constrained that way. And so when I started out, that satellite company, the next time I did this, I think it was for a big investment company, I’m not going to ask you about your accounts. I’m going to ask you about what you’re trying to get done. So it’s got to be some specific thing. And the org was well, we do all these things. We do all of them. We’re well, okay, we’ll do all those studies then. What do you mean? We’ve got to frame it by the thing people are trying to get done. So within a listening session, let’s take that example of the washing machine one, taking care of your clothing. People will say, a lot of the time, maybe a third of the time, they’ll say, well, where do you want me to start? I’m what just went through your mind right now? But the beautiful thing is that usually I have had an intro session with them first. And we do intro sessions, 15, 20 minutes to make sure that the person is comfortable with this kind of inner action. It is not a survey spoken out loud, right? Yeah. I am not going to lead you through a list of questions. And we will get a bunch of candidates. We will do intro sessions with them. And in that intro session, we’ll find out if they’re comfortable. And we’ll also find out if they can speak about their inner thinking. And there was one candidate. This was for a study about, it was a company that makes small appliances. And they just wanted to what else can we do? What are people doing in the kitchen, right? Well, you can’t just say, what are you doing in the kitchen? That’s not specific enough. You can’t say, what are you doing when you make dinner? Because a lot of people make dinner in a lot of different ways. So we decided on what went through your mind as you were cooking dinner in the mindset of feeling like a creative home chef. Okay. Very specific. Is that the germinal question? Yeah, that’s the germinal question. It’s what went through your mind. It’s in the past. And it’s about this purpose that people have. Yeah. I use that word purpose. I know I teach this globally. And there are countries this guy in South Africa. He’s all purpose means something totally different to us. I’m okay, good. Call it intent. I really identify with all the language in the models around benefit, jobs to be done, motivations, mindsets. I feel I also have a pile of language in that space too. That’s I’m not really... So I’m just connecting with that. That’s it’s beautiful though. Keep going though. So you have a germinal question. Yes, you have a germinal question. And generally people have thought about this germinal question since you had the intro session. A few of them, maybe a third of them, maybe a quarter, I don’t know. We’ll say, well, where do you want me to start? Because they’ve thought about it so much. There’s a ton, right? You, you always start your listening sessions, which is what this is sort of. There, there’s a reason why it isn’t exactly. With a question about where people come from. Right. So it’s a way of, okay, let’s get started there. It does not matter where we start, because what’s going to happen is that the person’s going to bring up a story. I’m going to try to get them to bring up a story. So within the clothing thing, there was someone who was a model. And taking care of clothing is important to that person. And they told me, I don’t remember how we started, but one of the things was, when they get a job, they’re looking at what the requirements are of the job. And then they know exactly what they’re going to grab. They have organized their clothing in a way that is, in reaction to the types of job descriptions that they get for the modeling gigs. Right. And that’s not true of this other person who was a widow, his wife had passed away. He still wants to appear neat and pressed. He doesn’t want to give up, because there’s that big, deep black hole when your partner has died and he doesn’t want to fall his way of not falling into the big, deep black hole is with his clothing. Right. And so we’re getting all these stories. When we get these stories, what we’re interested in is two things. Well actually a lot of things, but one of them is let’s make sure that we’re building trust with this person because the person’s not going to just go out and tell you their inner thoughts if they’re not sure who they’re talking to. Right. This is why a listening session has to be one-on-one. It can’t be multiple people because you guard yourself. Maybe subconsciously, you’re just not going to talk about certain things. Right. And I don’t want people to talk about stuff that they would never tell anyone, but I do want them to talk about their inner thinking, their emotional reactions and their personal rules. And I want us to sense. So this is the other thing we’re doing. When people are just explaining to us how they do them things, how the necklaces are organized on the racks going down her hallway, part of her clothing. Right. But why? Right. I want to understand what’s underneath that. Well, they might get an opinion. They might tell me because this is better. But why? I don’t want to stick with just the opinion. Where did that come from? When you first started doing it, do you remember what was going through your mind? And it was oh yeah, it was that day when I was at my friend’s apartment and she was trying to get ready to go out. We were going out and she couldn’t find the necklace that she wanted or, whatever. Right. And I’m I never want to make anyone late, including myself. We were late to the concert. I never want to make any, so I have to organize this so that I don’t meet people late. Right. So my personal rule then got formed. Well, maybe the personal rule was I don’t like being late, but that thinking of making my necklaces all organized as a part of that personal rule of I don’t want to ever be late. Maybe it was related. Maybe it wasn’t. I’m making up this example because I’m not going to tell you people’s actual thinking. The, the, the, what happens outside of this is important. After we look for patterns and this is important and I want to touch on this, maybe again later, but we’re not just looking at one person’s story and then surfacing that story, that story, meaning that inner thought, that trip back in memory. We were in the apartment. My friend couldn’t find her necklace. We were going to be late. Right. It gets rolled up with other people’s stories where they have the same focus of mental attention. So it might not be about necklaces. Necklaces are nouns. It might not be about feeling in a rush, but it might be, or it might not be about a personal rule of not being late, but it might be. These little things are focuses of mental attention. So when we analyze the data, what we’re doing is we’re using an affinity technique of what is the person focused on in that moment? What is the bigger thing? Yeah, they’re trying to find the necklace. What else were they focused on? They were focused on trying to get the concert before the gates shut or something, or maybe meeting friends in front of the Coliseum or wherever they’re going. And letting that friend down or thinking about how the last time they went out with that friend and they were late, the friend said, okay, you get one more shot and then I’m not going to concerts with you again. They might’ve been thinking all of that, but we’re doing focus of mental attention. And the focus of mental attention is what shows up as those towers in the skyline. Those towers contain the stories. The stories might be totally different. I have a study that I’ve been doing for many years about what went through your mind as you experienced a near miss incident. And those incidents are all varied. And what kind of, I’m curious, how do you, what kinds of questions you, I mean, you’ve written about listening and listening deeply. What have you learned? And what do you teach about how to help people tell these stories or uncover these stories? So the things, and I teach, we’ve, I’ve got a course and I’ve got a book and I’ve been teaching at various levels throughout the career specifically began with just people who wanted to have a job and work with me. And so I teach one off and so I’ve just gotten better and better and better at it. And part of what I’m teaching is when you try to form trust with someone, you do it by those little words, like, uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah. Your tone of voice, you do it by understanding how they speak and trying to not speak yourself in a very opposite way. So if the person’s very quick, very fast, then you will have very fast questions. You wouldn’t be going, oh yeah. And having a space. You would do it their way. I teach people some of the ideas to let go of your judgment. Well, we’re certainly letting go of whatever the client wants. I don’t care about the client. I don’t care about their product. I care about this person, what they’re trying to get done. So you try to keep the product and the client out of the conversation. But more than that, you try to keep your judgment out of it. So you might hear someone saying something that they believe that you’re like, oh no, you’re a little fringe on that. That’s a judgment. You let go of it. You’re like, oh, totally. I can see how. So you’re thinking around that, just be there, be there for them. You are not lying. You are being there for them. Have you ever heard of Harleen? I’m sorry. Go ahead. Have you ever heard of Harlene Anderson? Does that name ring a bell? No. I’m going to send you these links, but she was a therapist and I have some footage of her talking about training therapists. And one of the things she talks about, everything you’re saying reminds me is resonating with interesting. Yeah. But she talks about how you ask questions not to get answers, but as a way of participating in the conversation. Yes. Exactly. Well, that’s actually a good segue because the other part of this is like, well, what do I ask? You go into this with no questions. A lot of people are like, that’s like asking you to cross a tight rope between two cliffs with no net. I’m going to freeze up. How did you come to this? How did you come to this way of doing it? That’s a harder question to answer. Let me answer the first question. Write that one down, bookmark it. So the idea is to calm people down to say, there’s no cliff. You’re just with this person. You’re trying to understand this person. All you’re trying to do is sense what layer of this jawbreaker. That’s the candy that I talk about. What layer are we at? Are we at sort of this description layer explanation scene setting? That’s all going to happen. Don’t try, you’re not going to ask them not to talk about this. You need it. But then are we getting, oh, here’s a preference. Can I ask, are they going to explain their preference? And here’s an opinion. Oh yeah. They’re explaining where the opinion came from. Good. Once they start hearing the kinds of questions that you’re asking, they start expanding themselves. They get into it. They start expanding. They also will, even if you mess up and you let a little accidental way of your talking into their conversation and they’re like, okay, oops, that’s broken. You can recover because of all the rest of the questions. They’re like, okay, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. You can recover it in most cases. People are enthralled by the feeling of feeling heard, of being listened to. It’s like nothing else. And so they’re willing to allow you a couple mistakes. They’re not willing to allow you outright judgment. That’s the end of it. Turn it off. But when you’re in it, there are types of questions that I teach people. There are types of questions for getting behind the preference and the opinion. But a lot of the time, there’s going to be some part of inner thinking that’s got more to it. And I’ll say, they’ll say, so my wife used to hang the clothing out to dry on the lines and I’m a little reluctant to do that. And I’m like, because we live in San Francisco where it’s foggy a lot of the time. I’m not sure things are going to dry out. And I’m like, well, what went through your mind the last time you were thinking about this? So there’s two types of questions there. There’s a because, a continue question. You could say and. I don’t say the word why very often. Because works a lot better. It doesn’t interrupt. The second one was what went through your mind? Just the last time. That’s another kind of question. So I’m teaching people kinds of questions. In the book, you can actually see the chapters on the edges from the bleed over. And the chapter on the types of questions is the biggest part of the book. So yeah, there’s a bunch of different ways. And what you’re doing is just sensing as you’re going. You’re sensing when they’re talked out on this one topic. You’re sensing when there’s another topic that they drop onto the table. And the way I think about this is it’s a jawbreaker. A jawbreaker, that candy with the layers, is a topic. They drop it onto the table. They might drop two more. And you’re not going to dive into each one of them right then. Because they’re in the middle of this other jawbreaker that they’re talking about. And every jawbreaker has these layers. They’ll speak at every layer or most layers. Or maybe only the outer layer. Maybe only the interior layer. The interior layers where the inner thinking, the emotional reactions. And the personal rules are. There might only be one of those, not all three. So for each topic, all you’re trying to do is circle around to see if we can get them the center of that jawbreaker. And sense whether they’re done with that jawbreaker. Or follow them when they drop another topic. And they jump to it. Follow them and maybe come back to this other jawbreaker. That’s beautiful. I tell people, you’re not allowed to write notes. You’re recording this. You need to focus on this person. You need to stay on top of what they’re saying. If you write notes, you’re focused on your notes. So all you’re allowed is to write down a topic, a jawbreaker. That they might have dropped and not gone to. That you can jump into later. I feel like I could talk to you for hours about this. There’s more I want to ask you. We’re kind of near the end of time. So I want to end with a provocative question that stumped me. And it’s, so somebody had invited me to answer the question. What would you say to a CMO or a senior leadership? Why invest in face-to-face qualitative when in this age of synthetic users and synthetic panels? What do you tell them? What makes it worthwhile? The all the synthetic stuff is designed around the way people are using a product. It is designed. Sure. It’s getting qualitative, but it’s not designed to pick out cognition. It’s not designed to emphasize cognition. It’s not designed to see that wild variety of the way people think. So the thing that comes out of this, there’s the skylines that I talked about with the towers and the stories inside. There’s also thinking styles. And thinking styles are key to convincing the organization that it’s worthwhile to support thinking styles other than what they usually support. So normally an organization will say, oh, we’ve got personas. The personas are basically the roles people play. So we’ve got a product for this persona here. This persona does such and such a role. And the role is actually the purpose. The role is the goal. Within that goal, there’s going to be two, three, four thinking styles. And your solution is supporting either an ugly amalgamation of them, an average of them, or one specific kind that’s the kind that’s most prevalent at the way the people think in the organization that’s making the solution. What’s an example of a thinking style? Okay. So for the washing machine, there was a thinking style around appear well-dressed. Stains. Oh, my God. Stains. Some people wanted, they had certain styles, different styles of clothing. Some buttoned down and everything. Some of them really lovely, stretchy, slouchy things, but they were designed. They were very styly. Style doesn’t matter. But keeping that style as good as it was when it was in the store, when you discovered it and fell in love with it, or as good as it was when you were a younger person wearing that same clothing, preserve the style, preservationist, that kind of a thing. Okay. There’s another thinking style around it’ll be fine. Clothing is going to cover me and I will be good. Maybe I’ll wear the color shirt that I need to wear for work. Just make sure there’s no stains. Okay. Stains are a universal. There’s another one that’s a separationist. I don’t want cross-contamination. This came from several different places. One person working at a hospital in the emergency room. Another person had a baby. They got a whole separate tiny washing machine for them for baby’s clothes that goes in the tub. And another person had kids that played a lot of soccer and went and played outdoors. And she didn’t want that clothing in with the kitchen towels, drying the dishes. Separationist. So now your washing machine. You’ve got your washing machine. It’s got the panel. Right now the washing machine is designed to surface how the mechanics work. You want hot water or cold water? You want it to spin fast or slow? Has nothing to do with those thinking styles. So you could make it work for one of the thinking styles. But what? When you sell the thing in the beautiful ideal future, you sell the thing. You walk in, whether you’re going to buy it in person or online, and you’re going to talk about how I like my clothing to be in my world. How do I take care of clothing? And then I’m going to select the washing machine that does that. Behind the scenes, it can be the same dang washing machine. Just has a different software that runs on the panel that talks about what you’re trying to get out of it. And so if you sell that washing machine or sell that house and someone else comes in, they can press a button and pick out their thinking style. And the front end changes. It’s beautiful. I mean, in my own relationship with my washing machine indicates that those washing machine companies need your help. There’s a significant language barrier and thinking style barrier between myself and those manufacturers. Again, I really appreciate you accepting my invitation and sharing your time with me. I could talk to you for another hour about all the work that you’ve shared and the wisdom that you’ve shared with all of us. I just thank you very much. Yeah, thank you, Peter. This was a lovely conversation. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Annie Auerbach & Adam Chmielowski on Rifts & Futurelessness

Annie Auerbach [https://www.linkedin.com/in/annieauerbach/] & Adam Chmielowski [https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-chmielowski-ba7736a2/] are co-founders of Starling Strategy [https://starlingstrategy.co.uk/], a cultural insight and futures consultancy now in its tenth year. They help brands step outside category conventions by mapping the cultural and historical forces that shape how people feel and why. Annie is a trained historian, journalist, and author of several books including a forthcoming one on collaboration. Adam is a trained historian with a background in international qualitative research. Both previously worked at Flamingo, where they created the Cultural Intelligence unit before founding Starling in 2015. Their pro bono project The Rift is amazing: The Rift One: [https://www.research-live.com/article/featuress/healing-the-rift-understanding-the-growing-divide-between-men-and-women-/id/5135613] Understanding the growing divide between men and women. [https://www.research-live.com/article/featuress/healing-the-rift-understanding-the-growing-divide-between-men-and-women-/id/5135613]The Rift Two: [https://www.research-live.com/article/opinion/living-in-a-culture-of-futurelessness/id/5146793] Living in a culture of futurelessness [https://www.research-live.com/article/opinion/living-in-a-culture-of-futurelessness/id/5146793]. Mentioned in the conversation is > Richard Huntington “The Mediocrity of Middle Distance in the Insight [https://www.adliterate.com/2019/05/the-mediocrity-of-middle-distance-insight/]”> Ella Saltmarshe [https://www.ellasaltmarshe.com/] on Sociological Stories So, as you likely know, I start all these conversations with the same question, which is a question I borrowed from a friend of mine, who is also a neighbor, who helps people tell their stories. And I use it because it’s a big question, but because it’s so big, I over explain it before I ask. And I’m going to ask each of you to answer this in turn. And then I’m curious to hear what Starling, your partnership, how that would answer the question too. But the question is, where do you come from? And again, you’re in total control, and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And Annie, I’ll start with you. Annie: Okay, so there’s probably two ways to think about where I come from. The first one is family and heritage. And so my dad’s grandfather came over from Austria to London in about the 1900s, 1910s, and immediately set up shop in the East End of London, in Jewish community, and he was in the schmutter business or he made clothes. And so my heritage comes on my dad’s side, from this immigrant background and making your way in the world. And big, strong communities, lots of family dinners and jokes. And this core of working hard and trying to better yourself. And a slightly outsider’s perspective, I think, as well, which I think I have in common with Adam, and I think very much tries to inform our work. So that’s one side, which is this heritage point. And then the second one is academics and where I’ve come from educationally. And it’s another thing that Adam and I have in common, but we both studied history. And so trained historians and thinking about the past and trajectories, and then I became a journalist, I became a writer. And so very much thinking about what moment are we in, it was a features journalist, I was always thinking about the moment we’re in the present. And now, of course, Adam and I do cultural futures. So it’s this past, present, future vibe that’s gone with my education and career trajectory. What was the business, the word that you said for your family? Oh, the schmutter business. Yeah, what is the schmutter business? Clothes, can’t you tell? I don’t, that’s not a, that’s a, what is that? That’s not a word I’ve heard before. It’s Yiddish. And it just means in the clothes business. Yeah. Beautiful. Adam. Adam: Well, in echoes of what Annie just talked you through, I can’t pull all the strings or the threads together in such a neat way that says something about how we think and what we do. But maybe they’ll come out as I speak. The older I get, where I come from, gets further back in the past. So most prosaically and more immediately, I come from a really boring, and when I say boring, I mean, the archetypically boring suburb, south of London in the county called Surrey. Nothing happens there. And it’s a place called Carshalton. I’m hoping I’m the only person from Carshalton that’s probably ever been on a podcast at all. And it’s the sort of place that has a wool shop. It had a wool shop when I was there 40 odd years ago. It’s still got a wool shop there, amazingly. And I’ve got no idea who buys the stuff from there. It’s probably surrounded by more chain coffee shops now. But it’s still pretty much the same. And it has that eerie familiarity whenever I go back there. Anyway, that’s the boring British or English, very middle class suburbia is where I’m from, on one level. Further back, but not that further back. So my parents were Polish. And they escaped Poland. Well, I say escaped, they were forced out of Poland during the war, the World War Two. So my dad was, his story was, he was ushered out. Ushered is such a light, ushered, please, sir, could you please leave your dwelling and come to us to our gulag? But that’s effectively what happened. So the Russians came to their door and told them to leave. They had an hour to leave their home, which I never saw again. So him and his two sisters, and their mother, their father, my great grandfather was, sorry, my grandfather was fighting in the war. So they were taken to Siberia. And eventually, I won’t tell you the story because it will take the whole hour. They found their way via India to London in around 1947, I think, eventually got there. And my mother, she was forced out by the Nazis. Same story, different enemy. She, through use of fake passports, got to the UK and also London, different part, to my dad, they met. And then they lived the English middle-class suburban dream. And many immigrants, assimilated into that world seamlessly at the time. And yeah, a few decades later, which sounds a long time, but honestly, it boggles my mind that it’s only what, three decades after that I was born in that really, really boring place called Carshalton. And actually, that’s where I’m from. And that whole story, I keep wishing to know it a bit more. Because as I say, the older I get, the more interested I am in it. It’s probably something to do with wanting my kids to understand it more. And historically, we’re just in a time of forgetting that period. And that has its consequences. So yeah, sorry, slightly long winded. I don’t have any connection to what we do. Maybe we’ll get there at the end of this. I don’t know. But that’s, yeah. So we talk about being ancestors of immigrants quite a lot, actually, funnily enough. It might be part of our connection of what we’re doing and why we’re still doing it. That’s so interesting. Yeah, well, then the next question, the third party in the conversation is Starling is your partnership. So where does your partnership come from? Annie: So we met, funnily enough, we both studied history at the same time at the same place, but never met each other. But we met each other in an agency called Flamingo, which was an international qualitative research agency. And Adam and I found each other. And we set up a wing of Flamingo, which was called Cultural Intelligence. So specifically around sociocultural trends and futures. And we did that together and we worked really well together. And then I badgered Adam to leave and set up Starling and eventually he agreed. But yes, we chose the name Starling quite specifically, didn’t we? Adam: Yeah, well, you said it’s because you were living in Brighton. Annie: Yeah, so I used to live in Brighton and there’s beautiful murmurations that happen, Starling murmurations that happen over the pier at dusk. And when Adam and I were talking about culture, it just felt like a really good metaphor in the sense that obviously you have these very dynamic choreographed movements of birds all happening at once. It’s incredibly beautiful and awe-inspiring. So something about culture moving constantly, but also the more we learn about murmurations, the reason for the movement happens because of threats and opportunity of the birds at the edges. So they might see a predator or they might see a food source or a place to rest and they can create these critical transitions of movements to push the entire flock of birds towards or away from something. We think that’s really interesting when you’re thinking about people and how change happens and how change often comes from the margins and how intersected it is. So that’s why we loved the metaphor. That’s so powerful. I feel like I had just listening to you describe it, that what it must be like to be a Starling in one of those murmurations. You’re so attuned to all the Starlings around you and somehow turning into something really moving, something that big, so beautiful. So there’s one question that we, so what did you want to be when you were a kid? Do you remember as a child what you wanted to be when you grew up? Adam: Oh my God. I really don’t, I genuinely don’t, but that just could be a result of a bad memory. Honestly, because I graduated from university and I still didn’t know and I had the luxury, frankly, and again, this paints a picture of a very different time. This is what, late nineties, that I didn’t feel like I felt like I had time to work out what I wanted to do. And as a lot of people who do this sort of work, I think stumbled into doing research and strategy type work. And that was based a lot around traveling a lot. And I also had a language, German, which got me into doing that. But honestly, I really didn’t think ahead. And it was a bit of a privilege and luxury because, you know, we’ve been doing some work around how young people look at the future now. And I looked, I saw it as something that was just going to offer me some possibilities and opportunities, honestly. And partly that was through, you know, my education and that’s what is instilled or was instilled in you, you know, for better or worse. So honestly, no, I don’t have an answer for you what I want to speak when I grew up. Annie: I wanted to be a vet. Is that right? Annie: Yes. I really loved animals. And I think that there was something quite, I don’t know, unadventurous or unimaginative that if you loved animals, you had to be a vet. You couldn’t just get a dog. But now I have two dogs and I’m not a vet. So it’s worked out really well. Yes. And so tell us now, where are you and what’s the work that you guys do? Adam: So where are the, where is the, where are you as an existential is your first question? Was that literally where I was? Annie: In London. Adam: In London. Yeah. So, okay. More tangibly. We are, so we’re 10 years in, specifically, we are, this is our 10th. We’re completing our 10th year as Starling in May, which is a real landmark. Congratulations. Adam: We think. And we haven’t fallen out and… Annie: Not once. Adam: Not once. And we’ve, you know, we’ve stayed Starling as the two of us. Everyone asks about growth or assumes growth comes from head count and all the usual metrics of what a growing business does. But I think we’ve managed to evolve and keep interested in each other and the way we think and work, but as much also in the work that we do for clients. It’s always been cultural insight, futures, Annie talked about her background in journalism and she also writes books, I’m sure, and she can talk to you about that as well. But a big part of what we do is trying to articulate and write well in ways that move people. But back to the murmurations, I don’t claim that we are writing and our outputs quite have the same emotional effect as they do, but we’re really big believers in the idea that the ideas that we try and convey should make people feel something, not just cognitively, but genuinely feel excited and want to do something with them. It’s harder as we do it through screens, right, I suppose. So that’s the work we do, and we can maybe talk about some examples, but yeah, it’s the, I don’t know if it’s grey areas, but I wouldn’t say we’re just one or the other, you know, Annie said we started in this, we created a unit called Culture Intelligence, which was essentially about in a qualitative group. And we were just interested, both of us, just in the forces that sit around people and between people that we don’t typically spend enough time thinking about. And I mean that societally, as well as in the industry or brands. And we were just fascinated by that, really, of all the different ways in which culture operates. How do you talk about what culture is? Sorry to interrupt you this, I’m getting excited about it. I always tell this story, poor Grant McCracken, he wrote that book, Chief Culture Officer, and I always reference him talking about that the chief culture officer for him meant you have to let the culture in, in order to breathe it out. And he had this really beautiful idea. But he said that the whole corporate sort of world, just when they see the word culture, they think of themselves, they think of internal culture. There’s a narcissism inherent. And so how do you, number one, how do you define culture? And how do you get people to care about it? Annie: Yeah, so there’s the culture in here, and then there’s the culture out there, right? So one of the most interesting ways that you’ve talked about it is around sociological stories, rather than psychological stories. I really like that. Adam: Yeah, because you know, what I was thinking, I was trying to remember who it was, I came across that distinction. And typically, the media, or most stories that you’ll see out there are psychological stories, they have interviews with individuals, they’ll tell that story for connection and intimacy, and empathy, you know. But what that tends to miss out, and I always found this really interesting is the ability to tell a sociological story, which talks about all the power dynamics around people, or all the contexts and trends and influences that surround them. And actually, it’s those stories, and I think they’ll talk about this in a environmental context, those stories are the ones that tend to affect social and cultural change. So they might be harder to tell, and there might be less frequent in terms of how we’re exposed to, but there is another way. And we just, we just seem to obviously, there’s enough people that are interested in us telling those stories. Back to your original question about how we define culture, I reckon sometimes we don’t, we don’t define it too much, we don’t have a one liner, in all honesty, your Anadolu Grant, who is brilliant, I know Grant, and even if someone as clever and smart as Grant cannot, can have a go at it through a book, and it might not necessarily work with all people, it just shows you how hard it can be. The space between people, I always come back to a very simple thing, which is thinking about the spaces between people, which can be filled with stories, literal, physical geography, and the spaces, structures, the material stuff, that to me is where we’re talking, typically, and filling in lots of gaps. Annie: And I always think about it as the deeper why behind some of the things that we can observe. So in quality ethnography, you can get really close to understanding what people are doing, and how they’re talking about it. And sometimes you need that bird’s eye view, or that historical trajectory, to step back and understand those connections and systems that are swirling around people to understand why they feel the way they do, which is a bit of unlock sometimes with our clients as well. Because we can get to some deep attentions that then can help them understand how they can be helpful as brands and move things forward. Adam: It makes me think of one thing, Ella Saltmarsh was the woman I was thinking about, sociological stories. Anyway, sorry, what you just said reminds me of one of the best things I read about insight. I bet you’re probably familiar with by Richard Huntington, the strategist in the UK. And he talked about, he was talking about how too much insight lives in the middle distance, which is neither proximate and close and intimate and truly empathetic, either very up close stuff, which qual and other research methods are great at or good qual. And then at the other end of the spectrum, I don’t know if you call it perspective, but I always remember the phrase, understanding the turns of culture, and just really understanding that landscape that people are embedded in and surrounded by. And I guess we operate at that end of things, often working with the proximity on a project or with the client clearly will be doing lots of good work on that end. So yeah, I remember that piece. I will include a link to it as well. When did you first discover each of you that you could make a living doing this thing? Annie: That’s a really good question. I was a journalist. And I ended up being the editor of a teenage girls website. And this is showing my age, but it was pre-Facebook. And this was a community of teenage girls who, and I’d only worked on magazines before. So there’d be a monthly postbag with 10 letters in it. And with this teenage girls website, we were getting hundreds of emails every single day. And I was suddenly immersed very deeply in their problems and their hopes and their dreams. And I really wanted to, I was writing for them, but I wanted to write about them. And that’s when I realized that research was a thing. Because it’s not like you grow up and go, hey, I want to be a market researcher when I’m older. Or maybe you do. But so I realized research was a thing. And then more when Adam and I met each other and started talking about ideally what we were bored by and what we wanted to elevate to, I think we realized that there is a space for being able to bring a specific cultural and future lens to something, which at the time, there wasn’t much of was there? I don’t think anyone was really cultural intelligence. I know, it’s such an overused term. I don’t think anyone was really talking about it then. Not much. Which was how many years ago, probably 20, 15 years ago. Adam: Yeah, that’s at least 15 years. So it’s five years, we’re running that unit within Flamingo. And there would be more, typically, you’d have a semiotic, there was a semiotic group, but we weren’t semioticians. Yeah, we’re interested in other aspects of how societies work, organise, change, other aspects that felt complementary to that. Annie: Did we have a client who suddenly was like, yes, this is the thing. And I’m trying to think of them as that moment of definitely when we left and started Starling, we had a foundational client who was like, absolutely, we want this thinking. And we’re like, okay, I think this is going to work, touch wood. And what do you love about the work for each of you? Where’s the joy in it of all the different pieces of the thing? Where’s the joy in it for each of you in the work that you do? Adam: There’s loads of joys. I mean, honestly, mostly working with Annie. I’m not just saying that, because, through work, I mean, there’s loads of ambitions or goals you might have through work, finding your people is, for me, probably the biggest one, as long as everything else is equal, and you’re earning a living and all the rest of it. The most important thing is that you’ve got someone who you can, not just, sorry, go on. Annie: I was going to say riff with, get to a better place. Adam: Yeah. And also just all the other things that, support each other and know that we’re in this together and feel supported and feel safe in voicing our ideas. Someone said to us the other day, it’s a vulnerable thing to do our job, any insight person, I think, but to pitch your ideas constantly to people, often through a screen. And you’re putting yourself out there. There’s a bit of a myth, I think, about insight being some objective practice. I don’t, I’m not entirely sure I buy into that entirely, because you can say anything, and you’re effectively trying to marshal an argument and put it out there. And it’s got a lot of you in it. So it’s never really quite that. It’s got a lot of us in it, I should say. And having Annie next to me to do that is everything, really. I think so. And so that’s the people side of it. Honestly, that’s the biggest answer to your question. Annie: I like the alchemy of an idea coming together. So I find that super exciting when we’re throwing and by the way, by the way, I’m writing a book about collaboration. And I think I wouldn’t necessarily have written that book if I hadn’t had such a great collaboration with Adam for so many years. But it’s the there’s something around sharing half formed ideas. And we’ll WhatsApp them to each other, we’ll talk about it when we’re walking from A to B, we’ll write something down, we’ll have this way of doing it, where we write 10 things down in the email, and then swap 10 things. And often, three of them will be pretty much the same. And then the others will push our thinking. And there’s something about the growth of getting towards to a really hopefully great, creative, and interesting, and different, genuinely different, because we’ve seen so much of the same. So high standards, is this interesting? Is this different? And I think there’s something very cool about that. And our clients have clustered us with some really interesting, high level, difficult questions, haven’t they? Yeah, so we get, go ahead. No, I was going to ask what’s an example of the kinds of questions that come to you, I want to talk about Rift, but I’m curious to, and I know that came out of you guys, but I’m curious, what are the problems that clients come to you? Adam: So there’s two answers to that. One is, the problems are everyday business and brand problems. So there’s a new positioning, and they want to make sure it’s really future facing and plugged into culture, or it might be a comms campaign that they want to ensure it feels like it’s going to be nourished, or feel of a piece with the broader cultural stories out there, not just category stories. So whether it be positioning stuff, comms, innovation, thinking about how to re, how to think about how they could push a category, all those are the questions, or where it goes to. But what’s probably more interesting is the topics or the questions, and they’re often one worders, honestly, there’ll be a one word brief, which is around tell us about joy, tell us about the outdoors, because these are the outside in questions, if you like, that will help get away from the norms of the category, and just reframe it and just take it in a different direction, or brand, these might be brand equities that they’re trying to say something fresh in. Can you say more about the need to escape the category conventions and the role that even just the framing of the exploration plays just to be really explicit about how important that is and what that does for a brand? Adam: Yeah, I think some of it comes from a lot of the brands we work for are big businesses, big global brands who do a ton of research, and their competitors will do a ton of research. And these waters are potentially overfished. I know I mixed my metaphors now. Because you ask enough people enough of the same questions, you’re going to get to the same answers and the same responses in terms of what the brands end up saying. And there needs to be a deliberate reframing of that or making the familiar feel a bit strange as the academic speak, which just helped people imagine what they can do differently. One of our favorite clients, one of our favorite quotes that they gave us, in terms of what they felt, and they allowed them to do was to imagine new possibilities. So they didn’t say that gave us better insights or deeper truths, or understand culture, but all those things that people do say and they’re great. But it was this imagining new possibilities. And it’s this idea that you have to deliberately step out of the conventional way of seeing something to find new language for something to have an alternative references to say don’t compare yourself to other Chris brands or sneakers or whatever, but to other cultural products or movements or ideas. And so that’s the thinking that we bring that people find valuable. What would you add to that? Annie: Hey, so that’s the business answer. There’s another answer, which is, people sometimes have said the nicest thing to us, clients have sometimes said the nicest things to us, which is, this was the best thing in my day, or, this has inspired me to do. And I think there’s something about bringing fresh thinking and challenging ourselves very hard before we get to that moment where we share it with clients, that allows for a quite expansive meeting. And even if it’s happening over zoom, and it’s electronic or whatever, you are bringing unusual references, you’re colliding, you’re deliberately colliding high and low culture together, you are looking in strange places. So for example, in my collaboration book, I’m looking at how people collaborate in the world of accident and emergency, in the world of polyamory, in the world of writers rooms in America, and how you develop, so looking in strange extreme places in order to bring different fresh thinking that hopefully opens up possibilities opens up minds, gives them something to talk about, not only within the business, but also is it something that they might go home and chat about? Maybe? I don’t know. But this is the aspiration for us. And yeah, that’s what I would say. Yeah. And what are your practices? Because it feels like you’re pointing at there’s some practices, there’s some layer of stress testing around the ideas that you have to make sure. And I’ve done a bunch of these interviews, and the best people I talked to, they have this final analysis of is this actually something? Is this something that the client’s ever known before? So I’m just curious, what is your practice for making sure the thing that you have is something that is actually going to have an impact? And what’s that process like for you guys? Annie: Yeah, it’s a great question. I think the big, what we really love at the beginning is that they’re boringly called stakeholder interviews, but actually, what they are is conversations in order to understand where people’s heads are at. And I think the language that they use are clues to existing ways of thinking, existing models, existing familiar stuff to them. So if they overuse a phrase, or if they overuse particular words to describe something that’s really helpful to understand of where they’re at, and also understanding what they’re frustrated by and where they need to get to. So that bit at the beginning is this incredible map of what’s known and what’s not known and where there’s frustrations and appetites. And then the whole thing is a stress test between us, Adam often says, he’ll say something. And if I’m shrug, then he’s okay, no to that. And the same goes, if there’s no electricity, if there’s no movement, if there’s no, that’s the thing. And sometimes as well, I feel like Adam will say something, and it just is absolutely the thing. It’s that is the thing in all of this, that is the thing. And so there is that constant to and fro of what lands, what doesn’t, and what feels like it’s got some heat behind it. Adam: Yeah, you were talking earlier about whether it has a pulse, which I quite like the language of. Does it make you feel something? Does it feel alive with something? And these are all hard to describe, really, they’re a bit ineffable. But we’ve worked long enough together to have a bit of shorthand to feel that in different ways. And we’re equally humble enough to go, okay, I thought it was the best idea I’ve ever had. Right, we’ll move on now. The other thing is, we’re talking about the two of us, the clients we’re working with will give us a very strong steer in the sense of, so we’ll, the way we work in terms of practices, an awful lot of Google Docs. And so before we get to any formal situation and presentation, we’ll be riffing through Google Docs, improvising, maybe you might call it, as we go, and invite them in to participate in that. And honestly, one of the most, for me, useful exercises is go, well, before we write the final thing, let’s just work out where we’ve engaged their minds. Because that’s going to be our best guide to work out, you could tell a million stories here, usually, with these big questions, what is joy? What is the outdoors? I mean, where do you want to take that? But we’ve, you’ve got to be, it’s a collaborative exercise in the sense, I always talk about ideas emerge between people. And ideally, that’s, there’s a third part to the two of us, which is the client team or person. And I was listening to Adam Morgan do his podcast series on interestingness, which we use the word interesting a lot, when I genuinely mean excitement, for most people, interesting sounds like a euphemism for boring. Genuinely, it’s most things are not interesting, right? So I liked his series. And one of the things he said was, most interesting ideas are ones that people feel invited into, and that they can participate in. And I’m such a big believer in that in terms of effective work. Because, look, you can say, you can assert the most interesting story at someone, they’re not feeling it for whatever reason, or the timing is wrong. Or they happen to be talking about something entirely different, and they quite like it. But there’s so many reasons why it won’t work. So I love that word invitation to it’s such a, it’s so true, but it’s also so complicated, the idea of what makes something inviting, or what has what kinds of things have an invitation for some people. But I love that language described to describe it. So we I want to be respectful of time. And there’s two, there’s one question I want to ask before, and I’m really excited to hear about the rift, this project that you’ve been doing. But I wanted to ask about the role of qualitative, I’m always interested in how people learn, and the role that qualitative plays and how it’s changed. So what, how, what is the proper role of qualitative? And how do you use it to find that thing that has a pulse that has invitation? Adam: So one answer is, so we most most of and I’d say what 98% of our work doesn’t have a qualitative component in the sense of, I mean, you could call us work qualitative, in the broader sense. But typically, we don’t speak to in a commission primary work with consumers. Having said that, we did on our recent Rift work around young people’s relationship, failing relationship with the future. And obviously, that brought to life those intimate bits of language that really helped land our story and get people engaged. Our work with clients will often be woven together with qualitative, and usually deliberately not qualitative. So this is the hence the complicated answer to your simple question. But ultimately, they’re going to have to tell a story internally. And usually, I think, increasingly, now it has to be one story, people don’t have the appetite for time or budgets, potentially to do all those complicated things and leave leave it unwoven together. So we work as hard as we can to understand what’s there on the table and how we tell a story that sits alongside it. But I mean, what else would you say about qualitative, Annie? Annie: Well, just that we’re very, we’re interweaved with it. And we’re very adjacent to it. And yeah, I think it’s a really good complementary methodology for what we do. We might put a story in a longer time trajectory, past, present, future, and qual might tell brilliantly the story of and make people feel deeply the story of the present, perhaps. And so I think that’s how I can work together at its best. Adam: I mean, I think it’s actually probably quite rare. So Grant McCracken, he’s a great cultural thinker, he does a lot of deep ethnographic work. And he’s an anthropologist. Doug Holt, similarly, he’s got loads of worlds that collide together that make his work brilliant. And but equally does a lot of deep interviewing. I think it’s actually quite rare for people to be doing cultural work, which, for loads of reasons doesn’t do that. Because frankly, there’s enough to be exploring that sits around people and all the other, the history side of things. A lot of our work will have a story, part of the story, part of the argument, which is looking back in time to tell a historical arc of where have we been? Where are we now? Where might we go to? And again, just to have the resources and time to reflect and do all that analysis. Yeah, it just means that’s where we spend our time. Tell me if I'm wrong, but you're in the business of sociological stories — structural stories. Which is fantastic. So I'm curious: what does qualitative research actually bring to those stories? When does it show up, and what does it do when it gets there? Annie: No, no, I think it’s this kind of, it can be an emotional gut punch. And so we can tell a story, which is this intersecting forces that surrounds this emotion at the beginning in the middle. And if somebody is looking into your eyes and telling you how you feel, and this is exactly what happened on the roof, to be honest, there was one very poignant quote, which was almost from a young guy in the UK, which almost got to the absolute heart of why we wanted to look at this particular topic. And the way he phrased it, we told our story around it. But that was something I think that people will go home with and feel deeply, because, and what he said, by the way, was, we asked a question, how do you feel about the future? Because our topic of the rift this time around, we’ve done two, this is rift two, and it was the rift between young people and their futures. And he said, when I was younger, he’s only 23. When I was younger, I grew up and I imagined this amazing utopian future of flying cars and diversity and everything at our fingertips. And now what I feel now, the word is dystopian. And I’m just trying to live through that. And I think that way of phrasing things was okay, well, we need to work hard here, because this is just not good enough. To leave young people with that sentiment about how they feel about progress, ambition, the future, it’s not good enough, we need to help. So that’s what really spurred us to do this project. Yeah, what was the origin of The Rift? You said, there’s two, there’s two phases. The first was on gender, right? And the futurelessness is the first time I encountered that word. And I’m not, it’s just so sad. So what’s the origin of the project? Where did it come from? And what did you discover? Annie: So The Rift is a pro bono project that Adam and I do in collaboration with other agencies, including Tapestry, which is one agency. And we wanted to put some energy and time into the big questions and sociological stories that we felt were being neglected or untold. And we started doing The Rift One, which was the rift between young men and young women. And back in it would have been 2024. And so we’d seen various signals around voting patterns, and young women and young women, young men voting very differently, young men towards the right, young women towards the left globally. And we wanted to understand what was happening ideologically and culturally to get to this situation, because we knew that this was an anomaly. And this wasn’t normally how young people behave politically. And we did our work. And we launched the project in 2025, in February on Valentine’s Day. And a month or so later, Adolescence came out on Netflix. And it felt suddenly there was a topic here that was something that we’d obviously researched quite deeply, but then it was propelled into mainstream media, and suddenly was a very big topic on the cultural conversation. And the same, I think, is true of the rift too. So this time, the signals that we were picking up were a bit more existential, in the sense of, you used the word futurelessness, that’s how we described it, a culture of futurelessness that young people were living through, whether that be deep existential anxiety about the impact of AI, whether that be the job apocalypse, and the lack of faith in education to propel you into a career, whether that be a broken social contract, whereby the things that your parents’ generation could achieve are now out of reach for you. And we’ve always looked to young people as a counterculture, a sense of energy and innovation and critique, and rebellion and to move society onwards. And if that is being drained away in terms of energy, power, resource and belief, it’s profoundly difficult, not only for them, but for all of us. And so that’s why we landed on that topic. We have a friend in common with you, Preeti Varma, and she conducted the rift interviews in the US and the UK. And that’s where that amazing quote came from, that was super powerful, testament to her brilliant interviewing skills as well. So yeah, that’s the background to it all. Adam: And all of that, I actually can’t remember whether we had a moment where we go, okay, this is all about the future, or futurelessness. There may have been that moment, one of us would have said it or... But to use them back to that murmuration image, I think it was all those things that Annie just described and more, just were swirling. And through some form of whatever, created a pattern, all these things that pointed to, I think, the rift, thinking through this language of rifts and ruptures, is it with the future? And then the more we thought about that, and the word the future seemed to be discussed, not necessarily in the public consciousness or popular culture, but just places that you’d see online or the things we read and the things we’re into, just discussions of the future, what is the future? How do people think about the future? How did they used to think about the future? And all these built together to go, yeah, that’s it. And let’s do it. And then Tapestry, as Annie mentioned, did a lovely piece of research into it, asked loads of different questions and ways in on getting people to talk about their future, as opposed to the future or the nation’s future and pulling that apart a bit in ways that fast forward to where we are now, I think people have found it is totally sad, and it is depressing. But there’s been a resonance in what we’ve named with this idea of this concept of culture of futurelessness, which paints a picture again, back to what we do, of the reasons that people may be feeling in a certain thing, that it’s not because of some failing in them, or some anti aspiration or vibe that’s going on with young people these days. It’s a structural, systemic, historical, environmental, economic, technological, total system breakdown. And that’s a hard story to tell. Annie: No one, it should be liberating for individuals, because they think it’s not my fault. It is liberating for Yeah. What did you actually discover? And now that you have it — what can be done, and how is it being received? And I just want to say — it’s powerful that you’re applying these tools to social problems. I don’t know that it happens enough. We’re lucky to have people doing this work. Annie: And so what we did with The Rift One around young men and young women is we identified why we felt this had arisen. And it was to do with the geographical and online spaces that they were occupying and the erosion of third spaces and the rise of pro-solitude culture and the echo chambers that exist online and that have segregated young people to live completely different worldviews. Did you say pro-solitude? That’s beautiful. Annie: Yeah, basically, I think a culture which has arisen, which has deified a very solo existence, whether that be routines and rituals and get ready with me and presenting the home as a retreat from a scary space out there. These are very good reasons we were living through COVID. And so a lot of this happened during that period, the rise of boundary culture, I don’t, I want to make sure I have strong boundaries. And so my, I’m not being trauma dumped on by my friends, etc, etc. All of this stuff became common parlance, but that also allowed for silos to remain. And that was one thing that you graph, the geography of spaces, the mood music was important. Adam: Yeah, the zero sum we talked about zero sum culture and philosophies that surround young people, or all of us really in the West, but young people have grown up with so it becomes part of their makeup in some ways, and culture again, reinforces it. And that thread has continued in the current work, the thinking about the future, where both the pro solitude or individualized existence, and then you add zero sum, compete your way through life and into the future. That’s been one of the biggest themes I think people have picked up on, what is the problem we have with how we think about the future, and what we leave people to do, which is effectively DIY their way to the future or compete their way competitively to get there. And that is not a healthy place for a society to be in or individuals, because there’s winners and losers in that battle, most losers. And so the outcome of both of those was conversations and discussions about how do we create those communal spaces or intergenerational connections to help young people or bridge those divides? How do we, on the gender side, how do we get women and men, boys and girls, just sharing the same space for a start, because so much of it is separated back to historical parallels, just now in the digital world. So there’s a very simple need to mingle casually more. And we discussed what that might mean and how the brands get involved. So that communal and collective thread, honestly, it recurs in a lot of work and in I do. Back to the, are we objective? Is that an ideology? I don’t know. Maybe it is. What would the ideology be? Adam: Well, the ideology is the world doesn’t rest on an individual’s shoulders and can only be understood as a solo battle through life where you just make some choices and life seems to progress. That’s the world we’re in. And typically in lots of dimensions, it doesn’t go that well. So maybe whatever the third Rift is, here’s my prediction. But there will be a dimension to say, well, I think we’re not the zero sum context or what would you call it? Mindset. We’ve seen it rear its head twice through this rift. It’s such a pernicious force in society that I’d love to work on that a bit more. And how do you really counter that? Because that’s a big effort. That’s a big society wide effort. The rift — that word. How did you choose it? Because I have my own experience here in Hudson, watching what social media has done to us — the fracturing, all of it. We're only now waking up to what we've done to ourselves. And then AI — I always say we're just pouring gasoline on a dumpster fire. We just keep finding new ways to alienate ourselves from each other. So how did you land on that name — the rift? Annie: How did we come to the name? Adam: Well, it felt a natural way to describe the gender divide or the cultural divide, the political divides that we were seeing. The rift, again, that’s a language, relationships, rifts in relationships. We launched on Valentine’s Day. So it made sense in a specific way to relationships between men and women. Annie: But also, I think that the rift was a bigger idea. And it feels so much of what’s difficult for people today is to do with polarization, to do with a lack of a common future or collective future that we’re working towards, the sense of loneliness and atomization. If Adam says there’s an ideology in how we work, it would be to think about collective solutions rather than individualized responsibility. And it lands with people. People have rifts in their own families politically. They have rifts in their neighborhoods. I think exactly what you’re saying. I’d love to hear what you think about the rift in AI, because I think the next rift we have to do will be about AI and humanity. But it is pouring petrol on it. Tell me what you mean by that. Social media promised connection and delivered disconnection. It created pro-solitude — I love that word, I hadn’t heard it before. Now there’s aspiration around not connecting. And that’s going to be cumulative. AI feels the same way to me. Equally seductive, equally charismatic — promising intelligence, but really just intervening in moments you might have had with another human being. Another way of choosing solitude over connection. And my experience in the States is that every response to new technology is the same: skill up, adapt, you’ll be fine. But we’re completely outmatched. What’s required now is a collective capacity that we’ve let atrophy. While pro-solitude culture was rising, all the muscles we had for coming together just — wasted away. Nobody has any embodied memory of what it means to gather as a community. The bowling alone stuff, the fellowship organizations — those are stories we’ve heard, not things we’ve lived. The social infrastructure isn’t there at exactly the moment we need it most. And we’re doing it to ourselves. We’re just letting the technology do whatever it wants. And it’s devastating. And I think we’re just in the reckoning with social media here in the States. And I imagine, I think this is playing out everywhere. And the awareness on AI broadly is so shallow. And the implications are, I feel are going to come fast and furious. And it’s going to be hurtful. It’s going to hurt. Annie: Yeah. I agree with you. And I think the bowling, bowling alone, scrolling alone, and the way that we collaborate with AI is usually alone. So you produce work and you iterate, you prompt, you get suggestions, all of that stuff that Adam and I described at the beginning, which was starting a question being having a vulnerable idea, the magic when it would have that that’s not happening. Because you’re creating something solo and polished, which doesn’t have cracks in it, which doesn’t have vulnerabilities, which doesn’t have unfinishedness to it, which that invitational world word you picked up on Peter, it doesn’t, it’s not an invitation, particularly to get, tell me, how does that land with you? What does it mean to you? How do you feel it? And I feel, again, to your word atrophy, we’re just surrendering the stuff, which is the joy of work, of ideas of humanity, and we are surrendering that so that we become more atomized. And I worry about it a lot. There you go. What's the story about the artist that falls in love with his statue? So I've had this experience — I'm playing around with Claude Code, trying to figure out how it can work, and I'm alienating myself and having the benefit of playing with this tool, and it's real play, and it's really exciting. But my experience is that when I feel I've done something pretty awesome and I go share that with another person, they have their own experience creating something magical, and my magical thing is not interesting to them. It doesn't cross the border in a way. It's a private thing that has no context for anybody else, and when I try to share it, it doesn't seem to land in the way — with the value that it seems to have when I'm with it on my own. Does that make any sense? Annie: Yeah, it does, but why? Because they have their own relationship with something else — they don't know, they weren't there for it. It's just something that happened somewhere else. I'm not entirely sure. I can just see this — oh, that’s, yeah. What feels magical to me is only magical because it was generated in isolation, I think, and if you’re not there for the process — it’s funny that AI really does threaten the thing that you guys said you have created and that you really treasure, the space between two people in a partnership. It seems absolutely the thing that AI threatens the most. That’s what Dave and Helen talk about — the intimacy economy — it just invites us. This is the danger, right? It is an invitation for us to give of ourselves to the machine as opposed to another human being. Adam: Yeah, and I’ve only touched, I’ve only dipped my toe into their work, but I just love how they on one level just pull apart all the different roles you can think about to be with AI or AI is with you, just to give people more options about how does this fit in rather than how does this replace? And I loved what you said about embodied. That’s my favorite word currently, embodied. And for obvious reasons, I think it’s not just come from anywhere. And we talk about AI in the context of intelligence and human intelligence, and immediately that’s a disembodied idea. We reduce people and ideas actually to cognitive tasks or skills or how quickly could you come up with some idea? These aren’t the measures of what a good idea is, or they’re not the only ones, because the embodied aspect of them is a huge part, if not the dominant part. And if we take that away unthinkingly, what are we left? I don’t know what we’re left with. Good enough ideas, coming back to the world of insights and producing, they’re probably good enough, but the collective outcome of that, we’ll have to wait and see to see what is produced from that, because it was still very early days. And yeah, how do you get people excited and feeling something through generating ideas with AI or delivering them through AI? Yeah, that’s a fascinating new frontier, put it that way. Beautiful. Well, we’ve reached the end of time. I want to thank you both so much. I feel like you have been a part of my LinkedIn world for a very, very long time. I congratulate you on 10 years, and I really appreciate you showing up and making the time to talk with me. Annie: Oh, it’s been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having us. Big admirer of everything that you do as well. Adam: Yeah. Really enjoyed it. Great. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]