The One With... The Sustainability Valuer - There's No Such Thing As a Green Premium

The One With... The Sustainability Valuer - There's No Such Thing As a Green Premium

Sam Carson leads sustainability within CBRE’s Valuations practice — a role that sits entirely separate from the firm’s sustainability function, by design. After fifteen years in consultancy, Sam joined CBRE to solve the question the sector had been dancing around for years: what does sustainability actually do to value? It’s a question that turns out to be harder than it sounds, and far more consequential than most people appreciate. Key Timestamps * [00:00:00] Sam’s background: 15 years in sustainability consultancy, and the “value problem” that nobody could answer — what does sustainability actually do to the numbers? * [00:02:27] Why Sam’s role sits inside CBRE Valuations, not the sustainability function * [00:04:52] The case for sustainability professionals embedding inside real estate business lines rather than sustainability teams * [00:07:19] The coming market cycle: why the period of low transactions is the moment to stake your ground on what sustainability does next * [00:09:33] What a valuer actually does — valuing cash flows assigned to buildings, not buildings themselves * [00:11:59] Why sustainability improvements often don’t show up in valuations * [00:14:26] “Prime is green”: why preserving the link between prime real estate and sustainability credentials is the market’s biggest achievement * [00:16:39] The RICS ESG and Sustainability in Commercial Property Valuations — 4th Edition * [00:19:04] The long tail problem: writing a standard that works for a chip shop in Aberdeen, not just institutional London * [00:21:34] Why Sam loves EPCs: the only tool that shows you the full quality spectrum, and why they’re repricing the market in ways sustainability teams aren’t paying attention to * [00:26:19] Sustainability’s communications failure: too focused on what isn’t working * [00:28:42] Why sustainability professionals struggle to claim credit for systemic wins * [00:31:08] The ULI PRESERVE tool: building a shared language for value and CapEx decisions * [00:33:32] The brown discount thesis: why waiting to retrofit is a compounding cost * [00:35:53] Place-based transformation: King’s Cross as the template, and why a version of it on the high street could become an institutional asset class * [00:38:12] The brown-to-green investment opportunity: why 20–30% of buildings may be mispriced relative to their EPC performance * [00:40:36] AI in real estate valuations: CBRE’s Ellis tool, automated valuation models, and why human judgment in valuations isn’t going anywhere soon * [00:49:36] What AI is genuinely well-suited for in the built environment: physical climate risk data, building performance optimisation * [00:52:01] Closing questions: If you had a magic wand... Organisations Mentioned * CBRE * RICS (Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors) * IVS (International Valuation Standards) * ULI (Urban Land Institute) * JLL * LaSalle Investment Management * Octopus Energy Reports & Tools Mentioned * RICS ESG and Sustainability in Commercial Property Valuations — 4th Edition (Professional Standard) [https://www.rics.org/profession-standards/rics-standards-and-guidance/sector-standards/valuation-standards/esg-and-sustainability-in-commercial-property-valuation] * RICS Valuation — Global Standards (Red Book) [https://www.rics.org/profession-standards/rics-standards-and-guidance/sector-standards/valuation-standards/red-book/red-book-global] * ULI PRESERVE Tool — Assessing Transition Risk in Valuations (C-Change) [https://cchange.uli.org/our-focus/assessing-transition-risk-in-valuations/] * CRREM — Carbon Risk Real Estate Monitor (Risk Assessment Tool) [https://crrem.org/crrem-risk-assessment-tool/] * UK Government — Non-Domestic MEES: EPC B Implementation Consultation [https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/non-domestic-private-rented-sector-minimum-energy-efficiency-standards-epc-b-implementation] The Future We Build is a podcast exploring sustainability, innovation and systemic change in the built environment, hosted by Alex Edds. New episodes released weekly. Filmed at Mute showroom, Great Sutton Street, London. Follow the Show LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build [https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build] Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-future-we-build/id1877617346 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-future-we-build/id1877617346] Connect with Alex LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds] More About Our GuestSam Carson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samcarson/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/samcarson/] CBRE: https://www.cbre.com [https://www.cbre.com]

Season 2 Trailer - The Future We Build

The Future We Build is back! After a first season spent mapping the landscape — exploring where capital is flowing, how sustainability frameworks are being applied, and what it means to lead change from inside real estate — host Alex Edds returns with a sharper question for Season 2: what does it actually take to execute? Season one made one thing clear: the ambitions are there, the tools are increasingly available, but a stubborn gap remains between intention and delivery. Season 2 closes in on that gap. Alex speaks to the people working at the sharp end — measuring performance, valuing sustainability, assessing climate risk on the P&L, and navigating the friction that comes with trying to change a fragmented industry from within. The conversations span investors, developers, cost consultants, sustainability leaders, property managers, and innovators in construction and housebuilding. What makes the show worth your time is what it doesn't do. There are no polished conference presentations here. These are honest conversations — about what is working, what isn't, and why the distance between strategy and execution is still the defining challenge facing sustainability in the built environment. * [00:00:00] Alex welcomes listeners back and reflects on what the response to Season 1 revealed about appetite for honest conversations in real estate and sustainability * [00:01:00] A recap of Season 1's arc: from capital flows and sustainability frameworks to the leaders navigating them — and the innovators and VCs trying to bring new solutions to market * [00:02:00] The insight that shaped Season 2: ambitions and tools exist, but the gap between strategy and execution remains the central problem — so this season speaks to the people whose job it is to close it * [00:03:00] Why Season 2 deliberately assembles a wide range of seats at the table — investors, developers, cost consultants, sustainability leaders, property managers — because this is a systems problem that no single perspective can solve * [00:04:00] A call to action: subscribe, rate, review, sign up to the newsletter — and an invitation to connect on LinkedIn and shape future episodes What you'll learn * Why the gap between sustainability strategy and on-the-ground execution is still the defining challenge in real estate * How investors, developers, consultants and property managers are approaching the shift from ambition to action * What it takes to measure sustainability performance in a way that actually demonstrates progress * How organisations are starting to put a financial figure on climate risk — and where it shows up on the P&L * Why innovation is so difficult in a fragmented industry with competing stakeholders and misaligned incentives * How housebuilding and construction are grappling with technology, efficiency and the constraints of volume production * Where artificial intelligence could have the most material impact across the built environment * Why honest conversations about what isn't working are often more valuable than polished success stories * How collaboration across different parts of the industry is essential to solving complex sustainability challenges * What the people delivering change every day believe will shape the future of real estate and sustainability The Future We Build is a podcast exploring sustainability, innovation and systemic change in the built environment, hosted by Alex Edds. New episodes released weekly. This show is edited by the wonderful team at Atalor. * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build [https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build] * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-future-we-build/id1877617346 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-future-we-build/id1877617346] * Email: alex@thefuturewebuildpodcast.com [alex@thefuturewebuildpodcast.com] * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds]

The one with.. The AI provocateur. Part 2. Agency and the Architecture of Change - with Antony Slumbers

Antony Slumbers is one of the most consistently provocative thinkers at the intersection of AI and real estate. In this second of a two-part conversation — recorded before the recent stock market turbulence that he references mid-episode — Alex and Antony pick up where they left off and go further: into the future of AI hardware, the geopolitics of energy, the sustainability implications of large language models, and what it will actually take for real estate businesses to transform rather than just tinker. Key Timestamps •      [00:41:00] The exponential efficiency curve —why the cost of a given level of AI intelligence has fallen 10x per year for the last three to four years •      [00:42:00] Right-sizing AI models — why state-of-the-art frontier models are already overkill for most real estate tasks, and what that means for cost •      [00:43:00] The Apple business model for AI — how open source models will converge with on-device computing to shift processing away from data centres •      [00:45:00] Data centre energy and the 3% myth —why the macro figure is less alarming than the localised grid constraints in Virginia and across the US •      [00:47:00] AI optimisation of the built environment — why DeepMind cut Google's data centre energy use by 40%, and why most buildings leave 10–20% on the table •      [00:51:00] Materials science as the next frontier — DeepMind's investment in low-cost sustainable materials and the question of when solar glazing becomes viable at scale •      [00:54:00] Europe's innovation deficit — why high energy prices create demand but regulatory instinct stifles supply, and the poor storytelling around net zero •      [00:58:00] Sustainability as a byproduct of technical buildings — Antony's argument that a fully sensored, efficientbuilding is already most of the way to sustainable •      [00:59:00] Institutional mandates haven't changed — European investors still require sustainable assets, they juststopped saying ESG out loud •      [01:01:00] The hospitality niche — real estate assets designed for digital detox, 'human as the new luxury', and the demand side that might pull sustainable development forward •      [01:04:00] How to eat the sustainability elephant — Antony's argument for ignoring what you can't move and doing what you can within your own patch •      [01:07:00] The competitive threat to incumbents — how well-funded spinouts with domain expertise and AI-first architecture could undercut established firms on margin •      [01:09:00] Alex on building a sustainability duediligence tool in three evenings using Claude Code — and the question of what actually creates defensible value •      [01:11:00] The three components of real AI value — data access, orchestration across systems, and trust; why software is the easiest part •      [01:15:00] Hallucination and the trust problem — why even cited, credible-looking sources can be entirely fabricated, and why domain knowledge is the verification layer •      [01:16:00] The CRE Automation Matrix — Antony'sfour-quadrant framework for deciding which real estate tasks to automate: plumbing vs cognition, easy vs hard to verify •      [01:19:00] Making sustainability economically viable for the whole market — how AI could bring the cost of high-quality analysis down from Blackstone-level to mid-market •      [01:20:00] Closing question: What one thing would Antony want changed? The Future We Build is a podcast exploring sustainability, innovation and systemic change in the built environment, hosted by Alex Edds. New episodes released weekly.Filmed at Mute showroom, Great Sutton Street, London. •      LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build [https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build] •      LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds] Antony Slumbers •      LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonyslumbers [https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonyslumbers] •      Website: https://www.antonyslumbers.com [https://www.antonyslumbers.com]

The one with... the AI provocateur. Part 1. The real estate countdown

Antony Slumbers has spent more than two decades at the intersection of real estate and technology — first as a software company founder writing property management systems, then as one of the most widely read voices on AI in the built environment. He runs the Generative AI for Real Estate People course, now on its 50th cohort, and has become a go-to thinker for anyone trying to understand what artificial intelligence actually means for how this industry operates. This episode is the first of a two-part conversation. Part One focuses on the here and now: where AI has already changed the game for real estate professionals, what genuine productivity transformation looks like (not 5% faster — 80% different), and why real estate, despite its slow cycles, has more reason than almost any other sector to pay close attention to technology right now. Key Timestamps•      [00:06:30] Antony's background: 20+ years in PropTech, software businesses, and how he became a leading voice on AI in real estate •      [00:09:00] Why the 'use cases' conversation has become almost meaningless — and how generative AI has outgrown the 'text, code, images' framing •      [00:09:45] André Karpathy's 'kernel of an operating system' idea and what natural language computing actually means in practice •      [00:11:00]  Why cracking Excel changes everything for real estate — and what that means for how analysts actually spend their time •      [00:12:30]  The data problem: why most real estate firms' data is still 'pretty rubbish' and why that has to be fixed before AI can do its work •      [00:13:00]  Inverting the 70/30 ratio: from 70% wrangling models to 70% thinking about inputs and outcomes •      [00:14:30]  Why real estate developers need to pay more attention to technology than almost anyone — the seven-to-ten-year gestation problem •      [00:19:30]  From SaaS dashboards to outcomes-as-a-service: where the market is heading and who is already building for it •      [00:21:00]  The co-pilot obsession in real estate firms — and why locking people into inferior internal tools creates a governance vs capability tension •      [00:22:00] From engineers writing code to engineers managing agents: how Karpathy went from 80% human/20% machine to the reverse •      [00:23:30]  Why JLL, CBRE and Cushman & Wakefield lost 25% of their market cap in two days — and what the market is actually pricing in •      [00:24:00]  The structural shift: from human-plus-software to agents-plus-APIs, and what that means for building management •      [00:26:00] Domain expertise as the killer advantage: why the people getting the most out of AI right now are those who already know what wrong looks like •      [00:27:30] The junior talent paradox: cutting graduate intake may look efficient now but hollows out domain knowledge in a decade •      [00:31:00] Bloom's Two Sigma problem and the prospect of AI as a personal tutor that compresses years of professional development •      [00:35:30] Closing out Part One: the environmental and social paradox of AI that will be the focus of Part Two Organisations Mentioned •      OpenAI •      Anthropic •      Google DeepMind / Google Gemini •      Tesla •      Salesforce •      JLL •      CBRE •      Cushman & Wakefield •      LaSalle Investment Management •      Hines •      CQuel •      2150 •      UK Green Building Council •      Better Buildings Partnership •      McKinsey & Company •      Knight Frank •      NREP •      GREEN •      Google (NotebookLM) •      Microsoft The Future We Build is a podcast exploring sustainability, innovation and systemic change in the built environment, hosted by Alex Edds. New episodes released weekly.Filmed at Mute showroom, Great Sutton Street, London. •      LinkedIn: The Future We Build on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-future-we-build] •      LinkedIn: Alex Edds on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexedds] •      Antony Slumbers — LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonyslumbers [https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonyslumbers] •      Antony's newsletter and writing: https://antonyslumbers.com [https://antonyslumbers.com]

The one with... Property Management 2.0 — Moving from Data Reporter to Value Creator.

Carl Brooks leads sustainability for CBRE's property management business — a role he built from scratch when he joined as the first embedded sustainability hire in the PM division. With a career spanning 25 years from waste management consultancy to developer-operator roles at Hammerson and MAPP, Carl now oversees sustainability across one of the largest property management platforms on the planet: 19,000 buildings, 3.2 billion square feet, across 41 countries. This episode is a ground-level look at what it actually takes to deliver on the sustainability ambitions that investors and landlords are writing into contracts. The central tension Alex and Carl dig into is one that anyone who's sat on either side of a property management agreement will recognise: investors want more — more data, more insight, more active performance management — but the property management model is structurally low-margin, fragmented, and historically designed for risk reporting rather than value creation. Something has to give. The question is whether the model gets rebuilt around genuine performance, or whether the pressure just keeps compressing margins until the system breaks. Key Timestamps • [00:00:00] : how does property management actually deliver on sustainability commitments made at investment level? • [00:03:50] Carl's career origin:, working with Diageo and Nike out of a seven-person office on the South Bank. • [00:05:00] Moving into real estate 18 years ago — starting at Hammerson • [00:06:00] Why Carl joined CBRE: the opportunity to build the first embedded, decentralised sustainability function in the PM business from scratch — at global scale. • [00:07:00] The "big green machine" problem: how siloed business lines inside firms like CBRE and JLL mean clients see one brand but get fragmented services • [00:10:00] The spectrum of client maturity globally: three broad contractual buckets • [00:12:30] CBRE's PM scale: 19,000 buildings, 3.2 billion square feet, 41 countries. • [00:18:00] The origin of the BBP Managing Agents Partnership: . • [00:20:45] What the specialist sustainability team actually looks like: • [00:21:30] Why CBRE standardised on a single data platform. • [00:24:00] The "hourglass" model: a specialist sustainability team sitting at the centre. • [00:26:00] AI-assisted triage at portfolio scale: virtual retrofit modelling, climate risk adaptation, benchmark analysis • [00:29:00] The real people problem in PM: on-ground building teams care deeply about their buildings • [00:30:00] "We want 20% more for 10% less" — the recontracting dynamic that is slowly destroying the value of property management • [00:33:00] COVID as a watershed moment: property owners suddenly understood who was keeping the lights on and the doors open. • [00:34:00] Centralised delivery vs. engaged delivery: why implementing solutions without involving building teams almost always reopens the performance gap • [00:39:00] Carl's closing answer: he wants sustainability to be the actual objective — not just a filter applied to investment decisions. • [00:42:00] The data blind spot: social impact, occupier engagement, and placemaking generate huge amounts of value that never gets captured, structured, or reported Organisations Mentioned • CBRE • JLL • LaSalle Investment Management • MAPP (previously referenced as MAP) • Hammerson • Better Buildings Partnership (BBP) • BBP Managing Agents Partnership • UK Green Building Council (UKGBC) • DeepKi • Measurabl • Diageo • Nike • Amazon • Google The Future We Build is a podcast exploring sustainability, innovation and systemic change in the built environment, hosted by Alex Edds. New episodes released weekly. Filmed at Work.Life Farringdon Follow the Show • LinkedIn: The Future We Build Connect with Alex • LinkedIn: Alex Edds More About Our Guest • Carl Brooks on LinkedIn • CBRE Property Management: cbre.com