Not a “choose joy” episode — w/ Kate Bowler

Not a “choose joy” episode — w/ Kate Bowler

Are you allowed to feel joy? Also, do you HAVE TO “choose joy”? That question sits at the center of this conversation with my sister Kate Bowler, NYT bestselling author and professor at Duke Divinity School, whose latest book Joyful Anyway is about as far from a "good vibes" manifesto as you can get. Kate has spent years — many of them marked by stage four cancer, medical trauma, and the particular exhaustion of being a highly sensitive person in a world built for optimization — figuring out why joy keeps showing up anyway. Joy and happiness are different. Happiness is math: accumulation, measurement, circumstances adding up. Joy has nothing to do with your gratitude journal and everything to do with whether you're willing to say a weird yes in the middle of a hard no. We go deep on what ambition actually looks like when it's rooted in your aliveness instead of your achievement. We talk about the dance between structure and surrender.  We talk about what it means to witness yourself, what our limitations have to do with our humanity, and why the people who've lived through the most nos often feel joy more fully than anyone. It's also one of the funniest conversations I've had on this show. Kate got bitten by a snake. She rented a pirate ship. She asked her surgeon to perform a magic trick. And I roast her at the end about a blanket. You'll want to stay for all of it. In this episode * Why "choose joy" is kind of a lie — and what you can actually do instead (hint: you can't open the door, but you can unlock it) * How a stage four cancer diagnosis cracked ambition back open — and what that revealed about work as a space of self-belonging * The hospital magic trick: what happens when you say a weird yes in the middle of the hardest no * Why the depth of the no conditions the height of the yes — and why people who've been through the most loss often feel joy most fully * What our limitations, scars, and very specific kinds of damage have to do with what makes us most human Waypoints [00:02:30] — Joy is not happiness (and happiness is just math) [00:07:00] — Ambition, aliveness & closing the door [00:17:00] — You can't open the door. You can only unlock it [00:20:00] — The magic trick (and other weird yeses) [00:36:00] — Snake bites, pirate ships & fear palate cleansers [00:45:00] — What makes us human Resources * Secret invitation [https://mariabowler.myflodesk.com/waitlist] * Joyful Anyway [https://katebowler.com/books/joyfulanyway/] by Kate Bowler * Kate's podcast: Everything Happens with Kate Bowler [https://open.spotify.com/show/4zP5HmsYUcXG8XaxGxiTqC?si=c9168b8fc50b435e] * Everything Happens Initiative [https://katebowler.com/about-the-everything-happens-initiative/] * The film Rental Family [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14142060/](Japanese loneliness, witnesses, and the grace we give each other) * Nick Cave on AI and the travesty of tribute songs without limits [https://crackmagazine.net/2023/01/nick-cave-chatgpg-news/] Have a creative quandary? Submit a question to be answered on the show [https://forms.gle/1AgD5ew34V6uwzPY9] Got some creative resistance? Get your free audio guide to the Creative Resistance Practice [https://mariabowler.myflodesk.com/pyoc4s22gm] for unblocking

My producer asks the big questions w/ Carin Huebner

You want to make something big. Yet here you are with every practice and routine and productivity tool that signals you're trying, and somehow still not at the real thing. What is that? Carin Huebner is a visual artist, former spiritual director, and the producer behind Make Human. She's also a person who has, in tears at a creative salon she was hosting, said: I just want to make. I just want to make. I just want to make. She asked the questions in this episode. This is the foundation episode. We talk about what creativity actually is (not innovation, not art-making, not your output), why the shaming witness is the real engine behind most creative blocks, and what agency means when it isn't code for "your willpower just isn't strong enough." We draw the line between productivity and creativity. We went sideways and came back. We laughed. There were bears. There's a moment in here where Maria describes the thing that makes any transformative practice actually work: therapy, morning pages, a walk in the woods, a friend who just happens to have a lot of love in them. This may just be the foundation of what it is to Make Human. In this episode * Creativity vs. productivity and why that distinction is not about aesthetics * Shame: what it is, where it comes from, and how it kills the thing before it starts * What agency actually is when "you can create anything" starts to feel like a threat * Truth-telling as the first creative act * Your flavor of aliveness: the thing you bring to any room that isn't earned or performed * Inner work is not self-indulgent because have you ever been around someone at war with themselves? * Why makers need to have their say in what counts as human right now Waypoints [00:00:00] — What this podcast is for [00:03:00] — How Maria got here [00:13:00] — What creativity actually is (And what it isn't)  [00:16:00] — Agency without the toxic positivity [00:23:00] — Truth-telling as the first creative act [00:31:00] — Shame, blocks, and the eyes of love [00:46:00] — Your flavor of aliveness  [00:50:00] — Why make anything right now  Resources * Secret invitation [https://mariabowler.myflodesk.com/waitlist] * The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron — and the morning pages practice * David Bedrick's work on shame and the shaming witness  [https://www.davidbedrick.com/] * Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT)  [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/acceptance-and-commitment-therapy] * The Zen Buddhist "maybe good, maybe bad" story [https://mindfulness.com/mindful-living/are-these-bad-times-or-good-times-the-story-of-the-zen-farmer] Have a creative quandary? Submit a question to be answered on the show [https://forms.gle/1AgD5ew34V6uwzPY9] Got some creative resistance? Get your free audio guide to the Creative Resistance Practice [https://mariabowler.myflodesk.com/pyoc4s22gm] for unblocking

Welcome to the Make Human Podcast

The Make Human Podcast is for creatives and culture makers who don't simply want to make more things. They want to be more alive and make the world more alive in turn. There's a version of creativity that's been reduced to output: something to optimize, measure, improve. Then there's creativity as a way of being: a spiritual and social path that includes how you meet your everyday life, your inner life, and the world you're trying to shape. Here, we believe culture is what we make it through the way we live.  You'll hear conversations with creatives and culture makers, alongside solo episodes working through what it actually looks like to live creatively in this moment. If you're here to make something true, and to build a world you can be human in — follow along. Follow the Make Human Podcast wherever you listen. Have a creative quandary? Submit a question to be answered on the show [https://forms.gle/1AgD5ew34V6uwzPY9] Got some creative resistance? Get your free audio guide to the Creative Resistance Practice [https://mariabowler.myflodesk.com/pyoc4s22gm] for unblocking Connect with Maria: mariabowler.com [https://www.mariabowler.com/]