The Color Line in the Pews

The "Red Letter" Conflict

In this episode, fresh off a couple of much-needed haircuts, Johnny and Eric step into the crosshairs of American politics to examine a glaring dissonance: the historical divide between the radical, restorative teachings of Jesus and the rigid institutional framework of Paul. In This Episode: * Assault Rifles and the Cross: The guys jump into the political arena, confronting viral comments from politicians like Lauren Boebert who famously claimed that if Jesus had an assault rifle, He wouldn't have been crucified. John completely upends this logic, pointing out that the desire to use violence to avoid suffering sounds exactly like the first thief on the cross. They unpack how a modern obsession with firearms directly contradicts the Christ who looked at Peter, told him to put away his sword, and said, "No more of this." * The "Supply-Side" Jesus: Quoting William Blake's poem The Everlasting Gospel—"That vision of Christ that thou dost see is my own vision’s greatest enemy"—John explains how humanity constantly shapes a Jesus that merely bolsters our own preexisting biases. They debate how the Beatitudes have been flipped on their head in contemporary discourse, changing "Blessed are the poor" into "Blessed are the job creators." * The Fetish of Hypocrisy: John and Eric react to the breaking scandal surrounding politician Kristi Noem's husband and his online double life. They reflect on the popular "Pastor Arrested" subreddit, unpacking how the rigid shame-based structures passed down from St. Augustine cause leaders to project external hatred onto marginalized groups (like drag queens) because they are utterly terrified of looking at their own authentic selves. * The Jesus vs. Paul Gap: Eric poses a foundational question: why is it so much easier for pastors to build a 45-minute sermon around Paul's letters than Jesus's parables? John shares a perspective that rocks Eric's world—revealing that as an Episcopal priest, his sermons are strictly rooted in the Gospels, and he can't remember the last time he preached from Paul. They discuss how people gravitate toward Paul because they want cut-and-dry rules, ignoring that Jesus is the ultimate patron saint of "chaos" who completely ignores social hierarchies. * The Collusion of Church and State: John and Eric dissect the history of the Johnson Amendment and the toxic nature of Christian Nationalism. John highlights that it wasn't a lack of weapons that killed Jesus—it was the corrupt collusion of temple and state power. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our community. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation going!

The Color Line in the Pews

In this challenging and profoundly personal episode of Oh, You Too, Johnny and Eric step into the current events ring before diving headfirst into a necessary, uncomfortable, and transformative deep-dive into race, faith, and systemic injustice in America. In This Episode: * Labor, Bias, and the Justice System: The guys open the conversation reflecting on a viral 2024 healthcare case involving Sharice Doily, a professional Black doula who was forced into a virtual court hearing via Zoom while in active labor. Eric shares alarming statistics highlighting racial disparities in modern healthcare and the shocking reality of medical bias against Black patients. * Trouble For Jesus vs. Trouble With Jesus: Discussing the vulnerability of marginalized communities facing institutional power, John reflects on the legal battles and historical resistance of the church. He shares an inspiring story about New York's historic "Little Church Around the Corner"—a sanctuary for outcasts and a vital stop on the Underground Railroad —leaving listeners with a foundational choice: would you rather be in trouble for Jesus or in trouble with Jesus? * The Literature of Liberation: Eric unpacks the profound personal impact of his recent reading list, breaking down the historical shifts in evangelicalism from Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez, the urgency of active dismantling in Ibram X. Kendi’s How to Be an Anti-Racist, and the dense, essential survival strategies outlined in Howard Thurman’s Jesus and the Disinherited. * The Color Line in the Pews: Why does the modern white church environment feel like it trades the grief of Good Friday for the permanent, saccharine comfort of Easter Sunday? Eric and John confront the reality of Christian nationalism, the hollow neutrality of being "colorblind," and how white spaces frequently sanitize the essential element of Christian faith: suffering. * Eric's Personal Arc: In a rare and raw moment of vulnerability, Eric shares the personal journey of navigating his dual identity as a half-Black, half-Italian kid raised in Central Jersey. He opens up about early childhood bullying from family members, the exact moment he truly realized he was Black, and the continuous journey of drinking deeply from his Black roots and culture later in life. If today’s conversation sparked something in you, we’d love for you to join the community. Follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so that you never miss an episode, and find us on TikTok and Instagram!

Sexual Identity & The Collar

Welcome back to Oh, You Too, a space dedicated to the deconstruction, reconstruction, and messy, continued growth of our faith. In this episode, Johnny and Eric begin with a playful look at pop culture and cinema before transitioning into a heavy, crucial, and necessary conversation surrounding the history of LGBTQ+ rights and homosexuality in the modern church. In This Episode: * The Death of Cinema & the Oscars: The guys kick things off with a deep dive into the entertainment industry following the Oscar awards. Eric reflects on his love for film and the realization that award shows have turned into an opulent campaign cycle. Johnny and Eric lament the vanishing romance of the movie theater experience, from running out of Bunch of Crunch to missing old-school intermissions. * Clobber Passages & Power Dynamics: Transitioning to the core of the episode, the hosts address the weaponization of "clobber passages" against the queer community. John uncovers a foundational historical truth: the actual word "homosexual" did not exist in the original text or languages when the Bible was written. Quoting Oscar Wilde’s famous line that "everything in the world is about sex except for sex; sex is about power," John outlines how biblical passages regarding same-sex interactions were actually targeted at ancient power dynamics, exploitation, and domination, rather than loving, romantic partnerships. * Latent Misogyny and Property: Eric and John confront the cultural panic many traditional fathers experience regarding gay sons, analyzing it as a form of latent misogyny rooted in ancient concepts of masculinity and dominance. They also break down how ancient marriages were treated as property exchanges—a history that still lingers in modern traditions like the father "giving the bride away" or paying for the wedding as a structural dowry. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our community. Follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so that you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation moving!

The Architecture of Hell

Welcome back to Oh, You Too, a space dedicated to the deconstruction, reconstruction, and messy, continued growth of our faith. In this episode, John and Eric clear out the clutter before jumping straight into one of the most heavy, traumatizing, and heavily weaponized topics in the history of the modern church: the concept of hell. In This Episode: * Quoting Scripture vs. Moving Left: The guys open with a wild current-events breakdown surrounding legendary conservative theologian John Piper. After Piper simply tweeted a direct quote of Leviticus 19:34 ("love the foreigner"), a wave of backlash erupted from high-profile evangelical figures—including worship pastor Sean Feucht—labeling him a far-left, "woke" liberal. John and Eric reflect on the bizarre modern reality where simply quoting the red letters of Jesus or biblical text is treated as a partisan political weapon. * The 4th of July Experiment: John shares a hilarious, long-running holiday tradition: posting the 27 grievances against King George from the Declaration of Independence on social media without comment. The result? Absolute internet fury from people who mistakenly assume it's a modern political attack. * The Flowchart of Control: Transitioning into the main theme, the hosts confront how the threat of hell has historically been reduced to a high-pressure flowchart used to scare people into compliance. They dissect the toxic youth group and church camp cultures where speakers would get a visceral thrill out of describing eternal torment just to manipulate emotional responses. * Dante, Gehenna, and the Eastern Orthodox View: John takes us on a theological tour of where our imagery of hell actually comes from. He unpacks how the Western imagination was permanently shaped by Dante’s Infernorather than strict biblical text, and explores what Jesus actually meant when referencing Gehenna (the literal, smoldering garbage dump outside Jerusalem). * A Different Way to Think of Home: Contrastingly, John explains the beautiful Eastern Orthodox concept of the afterlife—where everyone simply goes home to the presence of God. In this framework, heaven and hell aren't two separate geographical locations; instead, those who love God experience His presence as rest, light, and love, while those who spent their lives in rebellion experience that very same pure love as overwhelming heat and torment. * Out of the Mouth of Babes: The guys look at how people outside the insulation of the church ask the most foundational questions. John shares a profound conversation with a child who asked the ultimate riddle of substitutionary atonement: "If Jesus says we are just supposed to forgive people, and He is God, why couldn't He just do that? Why did blood have to get involved?" * Grandma and the Bread: In a deeply personal closing segment, John shares the hilarious and moving story of his maternal grandmother, an Albanian Muslim navigating Alzheimer’s in a New York care facility. After accidentally joining a parade of elderly Roman Catholic residents, she accidentally began taking communion on Sundays, prompting an unforgettable conversation about grace, identity, and who truly belongs at the table. If today’s raw conversation sparked something in your own journey, we would love for you to join our growing community. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss a weekly drop, and follow us on TikTok and Instagram to keep the conversation going!

The Origin Story

Welcome to the inaugural episode of Oh, You Too—a space dedicated to the deconstruction, the reconstruction, and the messy, continued growth of our faith. Our goal is simple: we want to help you love your neighbor a little more deeply, and if you’re not quite there yet, that’s okay. We're all out here just trying to make it. In this premier episode, Johnny and Eric clear the air, laugh about aging, and lay the absolute groundwork for why this podcast exists. They dive headfirst into their shared past, tracing the cracks in their religious foundations and exploring the beautiful, painful realities of outgrowing the faith you were raised in. In This Episode: * What’s in a Name? (Oh, You Too?): John and Eric unpack the meaning behind the podcast’s title. They discuss the unique phenomenon of reconnecting with old friends from their youth who organically reveal they don’t go to church anymore, prompting a relieved sigh of, "Oh, you too?" They contrast their Northeast evangelical upbringing with the wild differences of John's current path as an Episcopal priest and Eric’s ongoing spiritual evolution. * The Arrogance of Certainty: Reflecting on the rigid culture of their childhood, the hosts challenge the underlying fear behind evangelical fundamentalism. They dissect the "height of arrogance" it takes for a movement that essentially started in the 1920s to tell ancient church traditions that they’ve been wrong for 2,000 years. Invoking Supreme Court Justice Learned Hand, John shares a mantra that guides his current faith: "The spirit of liberty is the spirit that's not too certain that it's right." * Chanting on the Porch & Forbidden Churches: The hosts reminisce about a summer when they were teenagers and tried to visit a different church every week. They recall a hilarious core memory of visiting a Lutheran church where the pastors chanted the service, leading Eric, John, and their friend Josh to spend the rest of the week chanting mundane camp chores to one another on the porch. They confront how the camp leadership eventually shut the experiment down, choosing control and fear over letting teenagers explore a bigger God. * The Crack in the Foundation: John opens up about the exact moment the foundation of his childhood faith fractured. He recalls a girl at camp sincerely stating that if a high school peer wasn't a Christian, she'd swear he was gay. Paralyzed in the closet at the time, John realized the deep contradiction of being both deeply rooted in Scripture and inherently queer. * The Coming Out Story & Paying Penance: In a raw and deeply moving segment, Eric owns his past mistakes and addresses his initial response when John first came out to him years ago. Falling back on toxic evangelical scripts, Eric originally told John he loved him but asked him "never to talk about it". Eric opens up about the shame he carries from that response and shares a hilarious, mind-blowing story about a time he thought he could "fix" John by taking him to a strip club—only for John to completely subvert his logic. * Life as a Navy Chaplain: John shares his journey of serving as a military and federal prison chaplain, detailing his beautiful time stationed in Crete, Greece. He breaks down what it truly means to be a chaplain to all people—meeting sailors exactly where they are without a hidden agenda to "save souls" or force a specific brand of religion. * Removing Hell from the Equation: The guys wrap up by examining how removing the historical weapon of hell forces the church to stop managing people through fear and instead forces us to finally learn how to love. If today’s conversation sparked something in you, we’d love for you to join the community. Follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so that you never miss an episode, and find us on TikTok and Instagram for more behind-the-scenes content!