Rounding Up

Season 4 | Episode 9 - Dr. Todd Hinnenkamp, Enacting Talk Moves with Intention

Dr. Todd Hinnenkamp, Enacting Talk Moves with Intention ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 9 All students deserve a classroom rich in meaningful mathematical discourse. But what are the talk moves educators can use to bring this goal to life in their classrooms? Today, we're talking about this question with Todd Hinnenkamp from the North Kansas City Schools. Whether talk moves are new to you or already a part of your practice, this episode will deepen your understanding of the ways they impact your classroom community. BIOGRAPHY Dr. Todd Hinnenkamp is the instructional coordinator for mathematics for the North Kansas City Schools. RESOURCES Talk Moves with Intention for Math Learning Center [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RAwGc2Wz7KqKbifpojJyXf8ywUhvxAiA/view] Standards for Mathematical Practice by William McCallum [https://static.pdesas.org/content/documents/M3-grouping_mathematical_practices.pdf] 5 Practices for Orchestrating Productive Mathematics Discussions by Margaret (Peg) Smith and Mary Kay Stein [https://www.corwin.com/books/5-practices-262956] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Before we begin, I'd like to offer a quick note to listeners. During this episode, we'll be referencing a series of talk moves throughout the conversation. You can find a link to these talk moves [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RAwGc2Wz7KqKbifpojJyXf8ywUhvxAiA/view] included in the show notes for this episode. Welcome to the podcast, Todd. I'm really excited to be chatting with you today. Todd Hinnenkamp: I'm excited to be here with you, Mike. Talk through some things. Mike: Great. So I've heard you present on using talk moves with intention, and one of the things that you shared at the start was the idea that talk moves advance three aspects of teaching and learning: a productive classroom community, student agency, and students' mathematical practice. So as a starting point, can you unpack that statement for listeners? Todd: Sure. I think all talk moves with intention contribute to advancing all three of those, maybe some more than others. But all can be impactful in this endeavor, and I really think that identifying them or understanding them well upfront is super important. So if you unpack "productive community" first, I think about the word "productive" as an individual word. In different situations, it means a quality or a power of producing, bringing about results, benefits, those types of things. And then if you pair that word "community" alongside, I think about the word "community" as a unified body of individuals, an interacting population. I even like to think about it as joint ownership or participation. When that's present, that's a pretty big deal. So I like to think about those two concepts individually and then also together. So when you think about the "productivity" word and the "community" word and then pairing them well together, is super important. And I think about student agency. Specifically the word "agency" means something pretty powerful that I think we need to have in mind. When you think about it in a way of, like, having the capacity or the condition or state of acting or even exerting some power in your life. I think about students being active in the learning process. I think about engagement and motivation and them owning the learning. I think oftentimes we see that because they feel like they have the capacity to do that and have that agency. So I think about that, that being a thing that we would want in every single classroom so they can be productive contributors later in life as well. So I feel like sometimes there's too many students in classrooms today with underdeveloped agencies. So I think if we can go after agency, that's pretty powerful as well. And when you think about students' math practice, super important habits of what we want to develop in students. I mean, we're fortunate to have some clarity around those things, those practices, thanks to the work of Dr. [William] McCallum and his team [https://static.pdesas.org/content/documents/M3-grouping_mathematical_practices.pdf] more than a decade ago when they provided us the standards for mathematical practice. But if you think about the word "practice" alone, it's interesting. I've done some research on this. I think the transitive verb meaning is to do or perform often, customarily or maybe habitually. The transitive verb meaning is to pursue something actively. Or if you think about it with a noun, it's just a usual way of doing something or condition of being proficient through a systematic exercise. So I think all those things are, if we can get kids to develop their math practice in a way it becomes habitual and is really strong within them, it's pretty powerful. So I do think it's important that we start with that. We can't glaze over these three concepts because I think that right now, if you can tie some intentional talk moves to them, I think that it can be a pretty powerful lever to student understanding. Mike: Yeah. You have me thinking about a couple things. One of the first things that jumped out as I was listening to you talk is there's the "what," which are the talk moves, but you're really exciting the stage with the "why." Why do we want to do these things? And what I'd like to do is take each one of them in turn. So can we first talk about some of the moves that set up productive community for learners? Todd: Yeah. I think all the moves that are on my mind contribute, but there's probably a couple that I think go after productive community even more so than others. And I would say the "student restates" move, that first move where you're expecting students to repeat or restate in their own words what another student shared, promotes some really special things. I think first it communicates to everyone in the room that "We're going to talk about math in here. We're going to listen to and respectfully consider what others say and think." It really upholds my expectation as an educator that we're going to interact with and understand the mathematical thinking that's present so that student restates is a great one to get going. And I would also offer the "think, turn, and learn" move is a highly impactful one as well. The general premise here is that you're offering time upfront. Always starting with "think," you're offering time upfront. And what that should be communicating to students is that "You have something to offer. I'm providing you time to think about it, to organize it, so then you're more apt to share it with either your partner or the community." It really increases the likelihood that kids have something to contribute. And as you literally turn your body and learn from each other—and those words are intentional, "turn" and "learn"—it opens the door to share, to expand your thinking, to then refine what you're thinking and build to develop both speaking and listening skills that help the community bond become stronger. So in the end it says, "I have something to offer here. I'm valued through my interactions." And I feel like that there's something that comes out of that process for kids. Mike: You talked about the practice of "think, turn, learn." And one of the things that jumps out is "think." Because we've often used language like "turn and talk," and that's in there with "turn and learn," but "think" feels really important. I wonder if you could say more about why "think"? Let's just make it explicit. Why "think"? Todd: Sure. No, and I'm not trying to throw shade at "turn and talks" or anything like that, but I do think when we have intention with our moves, they're super impactful relative to other opportunities where maybe we're just not getting the most out of it. So that idea of offering time or providing or ensuring time for kids to think upfront—and depending on the situation, that can be 10 seconds, that can be 30 seconds—where you feel like students have had a chance to internalize what's going on [and] think about what they would say, it puts them in an entirely different mode to build a share with somebody else. I'm often in classrooms, and if we don't provide that think time, you see kids turn and talk to each other, and the first part is them still trying to figure out what should be said. And it just doesn't seem like it's as impactful or as productive during that time as it could be without that "think" first. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I want to go back to something you said earlier too, when you were describing the value that comes out of restating or rephrasing, having a student do that with another student's thinking. One of the things that struck me is there were points in time when you were talking about that and you were talking about the value for an individual student who's in that spot. Todd: Mm. Mike: But I also heard you come back to it and say, "There's something in this for the group, for the community as well." And I wonder if you could unpack a little bit: What's in it for the kid when they go through that restating another student's [idea], or having their [own] idea restated, and then what's in it for the community? Todd: Sure. Well, let's start with the individual, Mike. And I think that with what we know about learning and how much more deeply we learn when we internalize something and reflect on it and actually link it to our past learning and think about what it means to us, is probably the most important thing that comes out of that. So the student that's restating what another student says, they really have to think about what that student said and then internalize it and make sense of it in a way where they can actually say it out to the community again. That's a big deal! So to talk about the impact on the community in that mode, Mike, when you get one or two [ideas], and maybe you ask for a couple more, you now have student thinking in four different forms out in the community rather than, say, one student sharing something and a teacher restating it and moving on. And I just love how those moves together can cause the thinking to linger in the classroom longer for kids. Often when I'm in classrooms, the kids actually learn it more when somebody else says it rather than me. And it kind of ties to that where, like, they just need to hear other kids thinking and start to process that a little bit more on their level. And we get to shore that up too as teachers. We can shore up whatever's missing if we need to later. But I think the depth that comes from thinking about it, putting it out in the community, having more kids think about [it] is pretty powerful. Mike: I think what's cool about that is the idea that there's four or five ideas floating around and how different that is than [when] a kid says something, the teacher restates it and moves on. I might not have made sense of it on the first kid's description or the teacher's description, but when those things linger around, there's a much better chance that I'm going to make sense of it. Todd: Yeah. And I agree, Mike. And what's really important in that process as well is the first move I always talk about is "wait." You literally have to wait. When the student restates something, we've got to let that sit for a little bit for it to really be something that other kids can grasp onto and then give them time to process what they heard and then ask if someone could restate. At that point, it's causing all this cognition in the brain, and it's making me think about what I understand and what I don't understand about what was said. And it just starts to build and make a huge difference over time. Mike: Yeah. I'm glad you said that because I'm a person who talks to think, but that is not true of a lot of folks. Todd: (laughs) Mike: A lot of people need time to think… Todd: Sure. Mike: …before they talk. And so I think it's really important to recognize that that wait time is really an opportunity for mental space. And if we don't do that, it actually might fall flat. Todd: Totally agree. I'd see it day in and day out in classrooms I'm in, where if we can offer that time to let that concept or thinking permeate across the room for a little bit longer, it's a whole different outcome. Mike: Nice. I'm wondering if we can pivot and talk a little bit about moves that support student agency and their mathematical practice. They really do feel like they're kind of interconnected. Todd: Yeah, I think they are somewhat interconnected as I think about them. And I see agency as like a broader concept, like really that development of capacity to act or have power in a situation. But when you think about math practices—thinking about the standards for mathematical practices—it's a little more specific. So when you think about the math practice of perseverance, I think we have to think about the move [called] wait time that I just talked about. When used with intention, I think it can communicate to kids, "I've got confidence in you. You have something to offer. I believe in you and that you're capable of contributing here." I just think that we have to think about our use of wait time and the messages that kids get from that and be careful not to squelch their opportunity to grow in those situations. Mike: OK. I have a follow-up. You're making me think about ways to do wait time well and ways to do wait time that might have an unintended consequence. So walk me through a really productive use of wait time—what the language is that the teacher uses or how they manage what can feel uncomfortable for most of us. Todd: Sure. And I will be very upfront that anytime you start to use wait time, if you haven't before, there's going to be some discomfort. (laughs) You think about, if you're a person that always wants to fill that space or feel like you need to because students aren't quite contributing, then you start to shift your practice to cause there to be a little more extended wait time, there's going to be some discomfort that plays out in that situation. So I think honestly, Mike, part of it is having the right question or the right prompt, and setting up the expectation and upholding it over time. I talk a lot with teachers about establishing and maintaining productive community. I think that we have to establish it over time and then maintain it. And what I mean by that is if you start to use wait time, you're establishing that norm in your classroom, is that I'm always going to give you time to think, and that's super important in here because we want to make sure that we get the most out of the experience. The maintaining part of it, I believe, is where we uphold that over time. We don't start to back off if kids don't then share their thinking. We can't always fill that space. And I think sometimes an inappropriate use of wait time is if we do it pretty well, but then we rescue when there's a time that kids aren't sharing something. So I do believe that no matter what classroom you're in, there is always one kid that can give you at least a nugget that you can go with. So I think as much as you can wait and try to draw that out before interjecting is super important. Mike: Yeah. You make me think about a scenario that I encountered a fair amount when I was teaching elementary, which was: I'd ask a question and there were two or three kids who immediately put their hand up. There were quite a few that were still thinking, and it was really uncomfortable for me, but I think also for some of the kids who had their hands up, that I didn't immediately call on them, that I actually waited and let the question marinate… Todd: Yes. Mike: …and the end product was great. I had more kids who had something to say because they had that space. But it was a little uncomfortable, especially for those kids who were like, "Wait, I know it immediately. Why aren't you calling on me? Todd: (laughs) Yes. And I think it's super important what you just shared, Mike, because in our practice, we have to be aware that the day-to-day practices or actions that we enact in our lessons, they're impacting everything from community, agency, practice. All the things that we're talking about today are sometimes just suddenly being impacted either positively or negatively. And I think the scenario you described about your practice is, like, you were intentional about it. You became aware, you realized that there's a handful of kids that I'm probably letting drive the discourse maybe more than I need to. And you're right: You've got other kids in classrooms that I'm in that are really waiting to talk and never have the chance. And I do feel like those are the kids that are going to have a hard time staying caught up with everybody because they're not getting that opportunity to develop some of those habits. Mike: Yeah. It makes me think about when I was a kid as well. I was not the fast kid, right? I was thinking about it, but I was not the first kid with my hand up. You've really got me thinking about how wait time is a real subtle way of saying, "You're not necessarily the most competent person just because you have your hand up first." There's no added bonus that says, like, "You're the best just because your hand's up first. Everybody can contribute. You might need a little bit of time to process. That's super normal in a math class." Todd: Yes, it is. And you go back to what we discussed earlier about being a valued contributor in the community, and you think about what those kids feel once they experience that wait time and then their ideas being the ones that drive the discourse or that are highlighted or presented. That's where you draw that in, and if you can have 50% of your kids be the ones that are feeling that, then you got to shoot for 60, and then 70, and so on. But you gotta start to expand the number of kids that talk and share and restate and do all the things around discourse, but wait time is a super powerful tool to do that. Mike: Another thing that you shared when I saw your presentation was the idea that you can pair talk moves in a sequence and that those sequence talk moves can have a powerful impact on kids. And I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about some of the ways that educators can sequence talk moves to have maximum impact. Todd: Sure. Yeah. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that there is an always or a 100% correct way to line them up and sequence them, but I do think there's some [that], if you can go after them in particular instances in your professional practice, I think it's going to change your practice, I think more quickly and more deeply. And the same goes with a lesson. I think right off the bat, we first must wait. We have to start to build that into our practice where we wait. So if we offer a prompt [or] pose a question, let it sit for a second. I always talk about 4 to 6 seconds would be about how long you'd want to just let it sit for a little bit. Then, if you've got the right question and the right prompt, I think you could just say, "OK, now I'm going to give you some time to think and then I'm going to have you turn and actually learn with a partner. So I want you to think about the prompt that's on the board. What would you share with your partner?" And literally you give them time to think and then you can turn and learn. So at that point, I think it's important that you're walking about the community, listening in, getting a feel for what's being discussed, because I think at that point you can have a feel for maybe what you might want to go to next, what insight you want to make sure is surfaced that is aligned to the learning goal of the day. That's how you get all that headed in the right direction. So you gotta lean in and figure that out. And I think at that point you could ask someone to share. "OK, who can share what you and your partner talked about?" See what happens; see what you get. You can be strategic if nobody offers. You can just say, "Hey, would you end up sharing? I listened to what you had. Would you mind sharing?" And then I think at that point you could use a "Do you agree or disagree and why?" So here's their thinking on this situation. So I want you to really think about it. Do you agree with what they're sharing or not? And then I'm going to ask you why. Let that sit. Give them some time to think. Let that play out. I think at that point you could offer the floor to whoever wants to argue about that and try to convince the community that they agree or disagree and why. And then I think, even, (laughs) I guess to keep going, Mike, I think you could at that point use the "tell us more," when that student's offering the reasoning on why they agree or disagree, and you don't feel like it's enough or maybe there's other kids in the room not quite understanding where they're going. "OK. So tell us a little bit more. Keep going." And offer that space and time for them to do that. So yeah, there's several ways that you can sequence them, but I really think you have to figure out the learning goal, be intentional about the discourse and how you can get it headed in the right direction and also slow it down enough that there's some depth to it as well. Mike: We had a guest on [Rounding Up] earlier this season, and he was talking about the importance of "agree or disagree." He called it "pick a side," but I think the idea is the same. Todd: Oh yeah. Yeah, same concept. Mike: And I wonder if you could talk about, what is it about agree [or] disagree that you think is particularly powerful for kids? Todd: Sure, Mike. Do you agree [or] disagree? It does make you take a stand. Like you have to understand the situation well enough to be able to say, "Hey, I agree with this thinking because..." fill in the blank. I think it puts you in a position where you've got to weigh everything that's playing out in the discourse and then actually understand it well enough to be able to then communicate about it. Your approach may be different than the thinking that was shared, but if you can understand it well enough and then state whether you agree or disagree and why, that's some pretty deep understanding. I mean, there's some high value in that if you can get to that point. Mike: Absolutely. I get the sense that a fair number of these talk moves might start to feel pretty organic. They might happen almost like muscle memory when an educator starts to use them, but you really have me thinking about planning for talk moves. Do you have any guidance for an educator who might be trying to think about, "Hey, I want to purposefully integrate some of these moves into my practice." What would it look like to plan for that? Todd: Sure. I think first of all, when you talk about muscle memory, that's a great way to put it. Some of these moves may not be strong in a professional practice for a person right now, but the more you get to using them and trying them out and implementing them and seeing what they'll do for productive community agency math practice, you're going to start to develop a level of growth in your practice that I think is going to be tremendous. But as you think about being intentional with them as you plan a lesson and go after a particular learning goal for a lesson, the one thing that comes to mind for me is really Dr. Peg Smith's work around the five practices and orchestrating discussions [https://www.corwin.com/books/5-practices-262956], right? You think about anticipating and then selecting and sequencing and connecting for sure all come to mind in that. So I guess I would go as far as saying, as we prepare for what students may say or do, we can intentionally think about the moves that might be most impactful in different scenarios. For instance, let's just say [there's a] a third grade student; you're working on a model to represent multiplication. The student draws a model to represent a multiplication scenario. You can plan to project or show the model and then simply use the think, turn, and learn move. You can show the student thinking, ask students to not talk upfront. We need to give people individual time to think. And then I want you to think about what you see and then I want you to turn and learn with your partner about that. So I think at that point, with that move being used, you're going to get a lot of discourse around whether the model is an appropriate representation or not. I think there's going to be depth in what kids take away from the experience. And you can go back to that as like, OK, so if I know that a kid says this and just says, "Well, it looks like there's this many rows and this many arrays," [then] the tell us more move is a great one there. "Tell us more. What do you mean by that?" Then they have to extend to give more depth to their thinking and then refine it a little bit more. So I think as you think about the learning goal, there's certainly ways that you can think about any of these talk moves, and in a way where you want to make sure that the right move is being used to get you closer to the goal of sense being made and such. So yeah. Mike: I want to come back to something that you touched on in the beginning, but it feels like a through line, which is: These talk moves are about building engagement and math, but really they're about so much more. What do you see as the long-term payoff for kids who experience this type of a learning experience? Todd: Well, (laughs) it often feels counterintuitive when I'm in schools and talking about these things because I think we've shifted into a mode where professional learning communities are so honed in on that exact math content standard, what do we want kids to know, be able to do? How will we know? What are we going to do when they don't? And I really believe that the more I'm in these situations, Mike, I'm understanding that we can't shift that learning like we want to until we deal with some of these that—I call them more general pedagogy practices, like discourse and talk moves with intention. Those are more general practices, not a content-specific practice teaching kids how to find a common denominator so they can add fractions and such. But I really think if we can get at some of these general pedagogy things to build up community, agency, math practice—all those things that I think will transcend time—I often talk about it, we're going after something bigger than just the priority standards or the most important standards within our state. We're going after things that are deeper, bigger, pay off more later in life than we may even realize that we're experiencing in the moment. Mike: Yeah. I mean, things like flexibility, problem solving, citizenship are all pieces that really jump out when I listen to you talk about that, Todd. Todd: Sure. No, you think about—and I mean, as we were talking about productive community earlier, I always offer them: Is there anything different you would want in your classroom or your school? You think about the words "productive" and "community," can we all come together and think about things in a way where we're contributing, we're all valued, we're producing together. And that's not something that I think we spend a lot of time talking about in schools now that it's so specific to content and how kids do on state assessments and such, but these things transcend all that. Mike: Absolutely. We're at that point in time where I could probably keep chatting with you about this for hours, but you are a busy school educator and you gotta get out of here. I'm wondering though, if you could leave listeners with a thought or a question or maybe a nudge related to their practice, what would you share? Todd: I first would say I just think it's important to always be reflecting on whose talk is driving the experience. As you think about everything we've talked about today, Mike, is the student talk driving it? Is their reasoning driving it or is it ours? And I think understanding that these talk moves with intention and what they go after and using them consistently with intention, it just starts to shift the balance to favor more student-to-student discourse. And I think it presents as, in turn, more developed community, agency and math practice. And I just think that you get more out of that than [a] high quantity of teacher-to-student discourse or student-to-teacher discourse. So I always offer [to] just pick out a move, try it for a week, find a wing person, collaborate around that, share ideas. How'd it go? What were your barriers? What did you see happening? Just these small shifts I think can create some big opportunities for people down the road. Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Thank you so much for joining us, Todd. It's really been a pleasure chatting. Todd: Mine as well. Thank you, Mike. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2026 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 8 – Janet Walkoe & Margaret Walton, Exploring the Seeds of Algebraic Thinking

Janet Walkoe & Margaret Walton, Exploring the Seeds of Algebraic Thinking ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 8 Algebraic thinking is defined as the ability to use symbols, variables, and mathematical operations to represent and solve problems. This type of reasoning is crucial for a range of disciplines. In this episode, we're talking with Janet Walkoe and Margaret Walton about the seeds of algebraic thinking found in our students' lived experiences and the ways we can draw on them to support student learning. BIOGRAPHIES Margaret Walton joined Towson University's Department of Mathematics in 2024. She teaches mathematics methods courses to undergraduate preservice teachers and courses about teacher professional development to education graduate students. Her research interests include teacher educator learning and professional development, teacher learning and professional development, and facilitator and teacher noticing. Janet Walkoe is an associate professor in the College of Education at the University of Maryland. Janet's research interests include teacher noticing and teacher responsiveness in the mathematics classroom. She is interested in how teachers attend to and make sense of student thinking and other student resources, including but not limited to student dispositions and students' ways of communicating mathematics. RESOURCES "Seeds of Algebraic Thinking: a Knowledge in Pieces Perspective on the Development of Algebraic Thinking" [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11858-022-01374-2] "Seeds of Algebraic Thinking: Towards a Research Agenda" [https://flm-journal.org/Articles/2A926DEBF042F89C466253F106FD0C.pdf] NOTICE Lab [http://notice-lab.com] "Leveraging Early Algebraic Experiences" [https://pubs.nctm.org/view/journals/mtlt/118/5/article-p357.xml] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Hello, Janet and Margaret, thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited to talk with you both about the seeds of algebraic thinking. Janet Walkoe: Thanks for having us. We're excited to be here. Margaret Walton: Yeah, thanks so much. Mike: So for listeners, without prayer knowledge, I'm wondering how you would describe the seeds of algebraic thinking. Janet: OK. For a little context, more than a decade ago, my good friend and colleague, [Mariana] Levin—she's at Western Michigan University—she and I used to talk about all of the algebraic thinking we saw our children doing when they were toddlers—this is maybe 10 or more years ago—in their play, and just watching them act in the world. And we started keeping a list of these things we saw. And it grew and grew, and finally we decided to write about this in our 2020 FLM article ["Seeds of Algebraic Thinking: Towards a Research Agenda" [https://flm-journal.org/Articles/2A926DEBF042F89C466253F106FD0C.pdf] in For the Learning of Mathematics] that introduced the seeds of algebraic thinking idea. Since they were still toddlers, they weren't actually expressing full algebraic conceptions, but they were displaying bits of algebraic thinking that we called "seeds." And so this idea, these small conceptual resources, grows out of the knowledge and pieces perspective on learning that came out of Berkeley in the nineties, led by Andy diSessa. And generally that's the perspective that knowledge is made up of small cognitive bits rather than larger concepts. So if we're thinking of addition, rather than thinking of it as leveled, maybe at the first level there's knowing how to count and add two groups of numbers. And then maybe at another level we add two negative numbers, and then at another level we could add positives and negatives. So that might be a stage-based way of thinking about it. And instead, if we think about this in terms of little bits of resources that students bring, the idea of combining bunches of things—the idea of like entities or nonlike entities, opposites, positives and negatives, the idea of opposites canceling—all those kinds of things and other such resources to think about addition. It's that perspective that we're going with. And it's not like we master one level and move on to the next. It's more that these pieces are here, available to us. We come to a situation with these resources and call upon them and connect them as it comes up in the context. Mike: I think that feels really intuitive, particularly for anyone who's taught young children. That really brings me back to the days when I was teaching kindergartners and first graders. I want to ask you about something else. You all mentioned several things like this notion of "do, undo" or "closing in" or the idea of "in-betweenness" while we were preparing for this interview. And I'm wondering if you could describe what these things mean in some detail for our audience, and then maybe connect them back with this notion of the seeds of algebraic thinking. Margaret: Yeah, sure. So we would say that these are different seeds of algebraic thinking that kids might activate as they learn math and then also learn more formal algebra. So the first seed, the doing and undoing that you mentioned, is really completing some sort of action or process and then reversing it. So an example might be when a toddler stacks blocks or cups. I have lots of nieces and nephews or friends' kids who I've seen do this often—all the time, really—when they'll maybe make towers of blocks, stack them up one by one and then sort of unstack them, right? So later this experience might apply to learning about functions, for example, as students plug in values as inputs, that's kind of the doing part, but also solve functions at certain outputs to find the input. So that's kind of one example there. And then you also talked about closing in and in-betweenness, which might both be related to intervals. So closing in is a seed where it's sort of related to getting closer and closer to a desired value. And then in formal algebra, and maybe math leading up to formal algebra, the seed might be activated when students work with inequalities maybe, or maybe ordering fractions. And then the last seed that you mentioned there, in-betweenness, is the idea of being between two things. For example, kids might have experiences with the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears, and the porridge being too hot, too cold, or just right. So that "just right" is in-between. So these seats might relate to inequalities and the idea that solutions of math problems might be a range of values and not just one. Mike: So part of what's so exciting about this conversation is that the seeds of algebraic thinking really can emerge from children's lived experience, meaning kids are coming with informal prior knowledge that we can access. And I'm wondering if you can describe some examples of children's play, or even everyday tasks, that cultivate these seeds of algebraic thinking. Janet: That's great. So when I think back to the early days when we were thinking about these ideas, one example stands out in my head. I was going to the grocery store with my daughter who was about three at the time, and she just did not like the grocery store at all. And when we were in the car, I told her, "Oh, don't worry, we're just going in for a short bit of time, just a second." And she sat in the back and said, "Oh, like the capital letter A." I remember being blown away thinking about all that came together for her to think about that image, just the relationship between time and distance, the amount of time highlighting the instantaneous nature of the time we'd actually be in the store, all kinds of things. And I think in terms of play examples, there were so many. When she was little, she was gifted a play doctor kit. So it was a plastic kit that had a stethoscope and a blood pressure monitor, all these old-school tools. And she would play doctor with her stuffed animals. And she knew that any one of her stuffed animals could be the patient, but it probably wouldn't be a cup. So she had this idea that these could be candidates for patients, and it was this—but only certain things. We refer to this concept as "replacement," and it's this idea that you can replace whatever this blank box is with any number of things, but maybe those things are limited and maybe that idea comes into play when thinking about variables in formal algebra. Margaret: A couple of other examples just from the seeds that you asked about in the previous question. One might be if you're talking about closing in, games like when kids play things like "you're getting warmer" or "you're getting colder" when they're trying to find a hidden object or you're closing in when tuning an instrument, maybe like a guitar or a violin. And then for in-betweeness, we talked about Goldilocks, but it could be something as simple as, "I'm sitting in between my two parents" or measuring different heights and there's someone who's very tall and someone who's very short, but then there are a bunch of people who also fall in between. So those are some other examples. Mike: You're making me wonder about some of these ideas, these concepts, these habits of mind that these seeds grow into during children's elementary learning experiences. Can we talk about that a bit? Janet: Sure. Thank you for that question. So we think of seeds as a little more general. So rather than a particular seed growing into something or being destined for something, it's more that a seed becomes activated more in a particular context and connections with other seeds get strengthened. So for example, the idea of like or nonlike terms with the positive and negative numbers. Like or nonlike or opposites can come up in so many different contexts. And that's one seed that gets evoked when thinking potentially when thinking about addition. So rather than a seed being planted and growing into things, it's more like there are these seeds, these resources that children collect as they act on the world and experience things. And in particular contexts, certain seeds are evoked and then connected. And then in other contexts, as the context becomes more familiar, maybe they're evoked more often and connected more strongly. And then that becomes something that's connected with that context. And that's how we see children learning as they become more expert in a particular context or situation. Mike: So in some ways it feels almost more like a neural network of sorts. Like the more that these connections are activated, the stronger the connection becomes. Is that a better analogy than this notion of seeds growing? It's more so that there are connections that are made and deepened, for lack of a better way of saying it? Janet: Mm-hmm. And pruned in certain circumstances. We actually struggled a bit with the name because we thought seeds might evoke this, "Here's a seed, it's this particular seed, it grows into this particular concept." But then we really struggled with other neurons of algebraic thinking. So we tossed around some other potential ideas in it to kind of evoke that image a little better. But yes, that's exactly how I would think about it. Mike: I mean, just to digress a little bit, I think it's an interesting question for you all as you're trying to describe this relationship, because in some respects it does resemble seeds—meaning that the beginnings of this set of ideas are coming out of lived experiences that children have early in their lives. And then those things are connected and deepened—or, as you said, pruned. So it kind of has features of this notion of a seed, but it also has features of a network that is interconnected, which I suspect is probably why it's fairly hard to name that. Janet: Mm-hmm. And it does have—so if you look at, for example, the replacement seed, my daughter playing doctor with her stuffed animals, the replacement seed there. But you can imagine that that seed, it's domain agnostic, so it can come out in grammar. For instance, the ad-libs, a noun goes here, and so it can be any different noun. It's the same idea, different context. And you can see the thread among contexts, even though it's not meaning the same thing or not used in the same way necessarily. Mike: It strikes me that understanding the seeds of algebraic thinking is really a powerful tool for educators. They could, for example, use it as a lens when they're planning instruction or interpreting student reasoning. Can you talk about this, Margaret and Janet? Margaret: Yeah, sure, definitely. So we've seen that teachers who take a seeds lens can be really curious about where student ideas come from. So, for example, when a student talks about a math solution, maybe instead of judging whether the answer is right or wrong, a teacher might actually be more curious about how the student came to that idea. In some of our work, we've seen teachers who have a seeds perspective can look for pieces of a student answer that are productive instead of taking an entire answer as right or wrong. So we think that seeds can really help educators intentionally look for student assets and off of them. And for us, that's students' informal and lived experiences. Janet: And kind of going along with that, one of the things we really emphasize in our methods courses, and is emphasized in teacher education in general, is this idea of excavating for student ideas and looking at what's good about what the student says and reframing what a student says, not as a misconception, but reframing it as what's positive about this idea. And we think that having this mindset will help teachers do that. Just knowing that these are things students bring to the situation, these potentially productive resources they have. Is it productive in this case? Maybe. If it's not, what could make it more productive? So having teachers look for these kinds of things we found as helpful in classrooms. Mike: I'm going to ask a question right now that I think is perhaps a little bit challenging, but I suspect it might be what people who are listening are wondering, which is: Are there any generalizable instructional moves that might support formal or informal algebraic thinking that you'd like to see elementary teachers integrate into their classroom practice? Margaret: Yeah, I mean, I think, honestly, it's: Listen carefully to kids' ideas with an open mind. So as you listen to what kids are saying, really thinking about why they're saying what they're saying, maybe where that thinking comes from and how you can leverage it in productive ways. Mike: So I want to go back to the analogy of seeds. And I also want to think about this knowing what you said earlier about the fact that some of the analogy about seeds coming early in a child's life or emerging from their lived experiences, that's an important part of thinking about it. But there's also this notion that time and experiences allow some connections to be made and to grow or to be pruned. What I'm thinking about is the gardener. The challenge in education is that the gardener who is working with students in the form of the teacher and they do some cultivation, they might not necessarily be able to kind of see the horizon, see where some of this is going, see what's happening. So if we have a gardener who's cultivating or drawing on some of the seeds of algebraic thinking in their early childhood students and their elementary students, what do you think the impact of trying to draw on the seeds or make those connections can be for children and students in the long run? Janet: I think [there are] a couple of important points there. And first, one is early on in a child's life. Because experiences breed seeds or because seeds come out of experiences, the more experiences children can have, the better. So for example, if you're in early grades, and you can read a book to a child, they can listen to it, but what else can they do? They could maybe play with toys and act it out. If there's an activity in the book, they could pretend or really do the activity. Maybe it's baking something or maybe it's playing a game. And I think this is advocated in literature on play and early childhood experiences, including Montessori experiences. But the more and varied experiences children can have, the more seeds they'll gain in different experiences. And one thing a teacher can do early on and throughout is look at connections. Look at, "Oh, we did this thing here. Where might it come out here?" If a teacher can identify an important seed, for instance, they can work to strengthen it in different contexts as well. So giving children experiences and then looking for ways to strengthen key ideas through experiences. Mike: One of the challenges of hosting a podcast is that we've got about 20 to 25 minutes to discuss some really big ideas and some powerful practices. And this is one of those times where I really feel that. And I'm wondering, if we have listeners who wanted to continue learning about the ways that they can cultivate the seeds of algebraic thinking, are there particular resources or bodies of research that you would recommend? Janet: So from our particular lab we have a website, and it's notice-lab.com [http://notice-lab.com], and that's continuing to be built out. The project is funded by NSF [the National Science Foundation], and we're continuing to add resources. We have links to articles. We have links to ways teachers and parents can use seeds. We have links to professional development for teachers. And those will keep getting built out over time. Margaret, do you want to talk about the article? Margaret: Sure, yeah. Janet and I actually just had an article recently come out in Mathematics Teacher: Learning and Teaching from NCTM [National Council of Teachers of Mathematics]. And it's [in] Issue 5, and it's called "Leveraging Early Algebraic Experiences." So that's definitely another place to check out. And Janet, anything else you want to mention? Janet: I think the website has a lot of resources as well. Mike: So I've read the article and I would encourage anyone to take a look at it. We'll add a link to the article and also a link to the website in the show notes for people who are listening who want to check those things out. I think this is probably a great place to stop. But I want to thank you both so much for joining us. Janet and Margaret, it's really been a pleasure talking with both of you. Janet: Thank you so much, Mike. It's been a pleasure. Margaret: You too. Thanks so much for having us. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 7 - Tutita Casa, Anna Strauss, Jenna Waggoner & Mhret Wondmagegne, Developing Student Agency: The Strategy Showcase

Tutita Casa, Anna Strauss, Jenna Waggoner & Mhret Wondmagegne, Developing Student Agency: The Strategy Showcase ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 7 When students aren't sure how to approach a problem, many of them default to asking the teacher for help. This tendency is one of the central challenges of teaching: walking the fine line between offering support and inadvertently cultivating dependence. In this episode, we're talking with a team of educators about a practice called the strategy showcase, designed to foster collaboration and help students engage with their peers' ideas. BIOGRAPHIES Tutita Casa is an associate professor of elementary mathematics education at the Neag School of Education at the University of Connecticut. Mhret Wondmagegne, Anna Strauss, and Jenna Waggoner are all recent graduates of the University of Connecticut School of Education and early career elementary educators who recently completed their first years of teaching. RESOURCE National Council of Teachers of Mathematics [https://www.nctm.org/] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Well, we have a full show today and I want to welcome all of our guests. So Anna, Mhret, Jenna, Tutita, welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited to be talking with you all about the strategy showcase. Jenna Waggoner: Thank you. Tutita Casa: It's our pleasure. Anna Strauss: Thanks. Mhret Wondmagegne: Thank you. Mike: So for listeners who've not read your article, Anna, could you briefly describe a strategy showcase? So what is it and what could it look like in an elementary classroom? Anna: So the main idea of the strategy showcase is to have students' work displayed either on a bulletin board—I know Mhret and Jenna, some of them use posters or whiteboards. It's a place where students can display work that they've either started or that they've completed, and to become a resource for other students to use. It has different strategies that either students identified or you identified that serves as a place for students to go and reference if they need help on a problem or they're stuck, and it's just a good way to have student work up in the classroom and give students confidence to have their work be used as a resource for others. Mike: That was really helpful. I have a picture in my mind of what you're talking about, and I think for a lot of educators that's a really important starting point. Something that really stood out for me in what you said just now, but even in our preparation for the interview, is the idea that this strategy showcase grew out of a common problem of practice that you all and many teachers face. And I'm wondering if we can explore that a little bit. So Tutita, I'm wondering if you could talk about what Anna and Jenna and Mhret were seeing and maybe set the stage for the problem of practice that they were working on and the things that may have led into the design of the strategy showcase. Tutita: Yeah. I had the pleasure of teaching my coauthors when they were master's students, and a lot of what we talk about in our teacher prep program is how can we get our students to express their own reasoning? And that's been a problem of practice for decades now. The National Council of Teachers of Mathematics [https://www.nctm.org/] has led that work. And to me, [what] I see is that idea of letting go and really being curious about where students are coming from. So that reasoning is really theirs. So the question is what can teachers do? And I think at the core of that is really trying to find out what might be limiting students in that work. And so Anna, Jenna, and Mhret, one of the issues that they kept bringing back to our university classroom is just being bothered by the fact that their students across the elementary grades were just lacking the confidence, and they knew that their students were more than capable. Mike: Jenna, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, what did that actually look like? I'm trying to imagine what that lack of confidence translated into. What you were seeing potentially or what you and Anna and Mhret were seeing in classrooms that led you to this work. Jenna: Yeah, I know definitely we were reflecting, we were all in upper elementary, but we were also across grade levels anywhere from fourth to fifth grade all the way to sixth and seventh. And across all of those places, when we would give students especially a word problem or something that didn't feel like it had one definite answer or one way to solve it or something that could be more open-ended, we a lot of times saw students either looking to teachers. "I'm not sure what to do. Can you help me?" Or just sitting there looking at the problem and not even approaching it or putting something on their paper, or trying to think, "What do I know?" A lot of times if they didn't feel like there was one concrete approach to start the problem, they would shut down and feel like they weren't doing what they were supposed to or they didn't know what the right way to solve it was. And then that felt like kind of a halting thing to them. So we would see a lot of hesitancy and not that courage to just kind of be productively struggling. They wanted to either feel like there was something to do or they would kind of wait for teacher guidance on what to do. Mike: So we're doing this interview and I can see Jenna and the audience who's listening, obviously Jenna, they can't see you, but when you said "the right way," you used a set of air quotes around that. And I'm wondering if you or Anna or Mhret would like to talk about this notion of the right way and how when students imagined there was a right way, that had an effect on what you saw in the classroom. Jenna: I think it can be definitely, even if you're working on a concept like multiplication or division, whatever they've been currently learning, depending on how they're presented instruction, if they're shown one way how to do something but they don't understand it, they feel like that's how they're supposed to understand to solve the problem. But if it doesn't make sense for them or they can't see how it connects to the problem and the overall concept, if they don't understand the concept for multiplication, but they've been taught one strategy that they don't understand, they feel like they don't know how to approach it. So I think a lot of it comes down to they're not being taught how to understand the concept, but they're more just being given one direct way to do something. And if that doesn't make sense to them or they don't understand the concepts through that, then they have a really difficult time of being able to approach something independently. Mike: Mhret, I think Jenna offered a really nice segue here because you all were dealing with this question of confidence and with kids who, when they didn't see a clear path or they didn't see something that they could replicate, just got stuck, or for lack of a better word, they kind of turned to the teacher or imagined that that was the next step. And I was really excited about the fact that you all had designed some really specific features into the strategy showcase that addressed that problem of practice. So I'm wondering if you could just talk about the particular features or the practices that you all thought were important in setting up the strategy showcase and trying to take up this practice of a strategy showcase. Mhret: Yeah, so we had three components in this strategy showcase. The first one, we saw it being really important, being open-ended tasks, and that combats what Jenna was saying of "the right way." The questions that we asked didn't ask them to use a specific strategy. It was open-ended in a way that it asked them if they agreed or disagreed with a way that someone found an answer, and it just was open to see whatever came to their mind and how they wanted to start the task. So that was very important as being the first component. And the second one was the student work displayed, which Anna was talking about earlier. The root of this being we want students' confidence to grow and have their voices heard. And so their work being displayed was very important—not teacher work or not an example being given to them, but what they had in their mind. And so we did that intentionally with having their names covered up in the beginning because we didn't want the focus to be on who did it, but just seeing their work displayed—being worth it to be displayed and to learn from—and so their names were covered up in the beginning and it was on one side of the board. And then the third component was the students' co-identified strategies. So that's when after they have displayed their individual work, we would come up as a group and talk about what similarities did we see, what differences in what the students have used. And they start naming strategies out of that. They start giving names to the strategies that they see their peers using, and we co-identify and create this strategy that they are owning. So those are the three important components. Mike: OK. Wow. There's a lot there. And I want to spend a little bit of time digging into each one of these and I'm going to invite all four of you to feel free to jump in and just let us know who's talking so that everybody has a sense of that. I wonder if you could talk about this whole idea that, when you say open-ended tasks, I think that's really important because it's important that we build a common definition. So when you all describe open-ended tasks, let's make sure that we're talking the same language. What does that mean? And Tutita, I wonder if you want to just jump in on that one. Tutita: Sure. Yeah. An open-ended task, as it suggests, it's not a direct line where, for example, you can prompt students to say, "You must use 'blank' strategy to solve this particular problem." To me, it's just mathematical. That's what a really good rich problem is, is that it really allows for that problem solving, that reasoning. You want to be able to showcase and really gauge where your students are. Which, as a side benefit, is really beneficial to teachers because you can formatively assess where they're even starting with a problem and what approaches they try, which might not work out at first—which is OK, that's part of the reasoning process—and they might try something else. So what's in their toolbox and what tool do they reach for first and how do they use it? Mike: I want to name another one that really jumped out for me. I really—this was a big deal that everybody's strategy goes up. And Anna, I wonder if you can talk about the value and the importance of everybody's strategy going up. Why did that matter so much? Anna: I think it really helps, the main thing, for confidence. I had a lot of students who in the beginning of starting the strategy showcase would start kind of like at least with a couple ideas, maybe a drawing, maybe they outlined all of the numbers, and it helps to see all of the strategies because even if you are a student who started out with maybe one simple idea and didn't get too far in the problem, seeing up on the board maybe, "Oh, I have the same beginning as someone else who got farther into the problem." And really using that to be like, "I can start a problem and I can start with different ideas, and it's something that can potentially lead to a solution." So there is a lot of value in having all of the work that everyone did because even something that is just the beginning of a solution, someone can jump in and be like, "Oh, I love the way that you outlined that," or "You picked those numbers first to work on. Let's see what we can use from the way that you started the problem to begin to work on a solution." So in that way, everyone's voice and everyone's decisions have value. And even if you just start off with something small, it can lead to something that can grow into a bigger solution. Mike: Mhret, can I ask you about another feature that you mentioned? You talked about the importance, at least initially, of having names removed from the work. And I wonder if you could just expand on why that was important and maybe just the practical ways that you managed withholding the names, at least for some of the time when the strategy showcase was being set up. Can you talk about both of those please? Mhret: Yes, yeah. I think all three of us when we were implementing this, we—all kids are different. Some of them are very eager to share their work and have their name on it. But we had those kids that maybe they just started with a picture or whatever it may be. And so we saw their nerves with that, and we didn't want that to just mask that whole experience. And so it was very important for us that everybody felt safe. And later we'll talk about group norms and how we made it a safe space for everyone to try different strategies. But I think not having their names attached to it helped them focus not on who did it, but just the process of reasoning and doing the work. And so we did that practically I think in different ways, but I just use tape, masking tape to cover up their names. I know some of—I think maybe Jenna, you wrote their names on the back of the paper instead of the front. But I think a way to not make the name the focus is very important. And then hopefully by the end of it, our hope is that they would gain more confidence and want to name their strategy and say that that is who did it. Mike: I want to ask a follow up about this because it feels like one of the things that this very simple, but I think really important, idea of withholding who created the strategy or who did the work. I mean, I think I can say during my time in classrooms when I was teaching, there are kids that classmates kind of saw as really competent or strong in math. And I also know that there were kids who didn't think they were good at math or perhaps their classmates didn't think were good at math. And it feels like by withholding the names that would have a real impact on the extent to which work would be considered as valuable. Because you don't know who created it, you're really looking at the work as opposed to looking at who did the work and then deciding whether it's worth taking up. Did you see any effects like that as you were doing this? Jenna: This is Jenna. I was going to say, I know for me, even once the names were removed, you would still see kids sometimes want to be like, "Oh, who did this?" You could tell they still are almost very fixated on that idea of who is doing the work. So I think by removing it, it still was definitely good too. With time, they started to less focus on "Who did this?" And like you said, it's more taking ownership if they feel comfortable later down the road. But sometimes you would have, several students would choose one approach, kind of what they've seen in classrooms, and then you might have a few other slightly different, of maybe drawing a picture or using division and connecting it to multiplication. And then you never wanted those kids to feel like what they were doing was wrong. Even if they chose the wrong operation, there was still value in seeing how that was connected to the problem or why they got confused. So we never wanted one or two students also to feel individually focused on if maybe what they did initially—not [that it] wasn't correct, but maybe was leading them in the wrong direction, but still had value to understand why they chose to do that. So I think just helping, again, all the strategies work that they did feel valuable and not having any one particular person feel like they were being focused on when we were reflecting on what we put up on display. Mike: I want to go back to one other thing that, Mhret, you mentioned, and I'm going to invite any of you, again, to jump in and talk about this, but this whole idea that part of the prompting that you did when you invited kids to examine the strategies was this question of do you agree or do you disagree? And I think that's a really interesting way to kind of initiate students' reflections. I wonder if you can talk about why this idea of, "Do you agree or do you disagree" was something that you chose to engage with when you were prompting kids? And again, any of you all are welcome to jump in and address this, Anna: It's Anna. I think one of the reasons that we chose to [have them] agree or disagree is because students are starting to look for different ways to address the problem at hand. Instead of being like, "I need to find this final number" or "I need to find this final solution," it's kind of looking [at], "How did this person go about solving the problem? What did they use?" And it gives them more of an opportunity to really think about what they would do and how what they're looking at helps in any way. Jenna: And then this is Jenna. I was also going to add on that I think by being "agree or disagree" versus being like, "yes, I got the same answer," and I feel like the conversation just kind of ends at that point. But they could even be like, "I agree with the solution that was reached, but I would've solved it this way, or my approach was different." So I think by having "agree or disagree," it wasn't just focusing on, "yes, this is the correct number, this is the correct solution," and more focused on, again, that approach and the different strategies that could be used to reach one specific solution that was the answer or the correct thing that you're looking for. Tutita: And this is Tutita, and I agree with all of that. And I can't help but going back just to the word "strategy," which really reflects students' reasoning, their problem solving, argumentation. It's really not a noun; it's a verb. It's a very active process. And sometimes we, as teachers, we're so excited to have our students get the right answer that we forget the fun in mathematics is trying to figure it out. And I can't help but think of an analogy. So many people love to watch sports. I know Jenna's a huge UConn women's basketball… Jenna: Woohoo! Tutita: …fan, big time. Or if you're into football, whatever it might be, that there's always that goal. You're trying to get as many more points, and as many as you can, more points than the other team. And there are a lot of different strategies to get there, but we appreciate the fact that the team is trying to move forward and individuals are trying to move forward. So it's that idea with the strategy, we need to as teachers really open up that space to allow that to come out and progressively—in the end, we're moving forward even though within a particular time frame, it might not look like we are quite yet. I like the word "yet." But it's really giving students the time that they need to figure it out themselves to deepen their understanding. Mike: Well, I will say as a former Twin Cities resident, I've watched Paige Bueckers for a long time, and… Tutita: There we go. Mike: …in addition to being a great shooter, she's a pretty darn good passer and moves the ball. And in some ways that kind of connects with what you all are doing with kids, which is that—moving ideas around a space is really not that different from moving the ball in basketball. And that you have the same goal in scoring a basket or reaching understanding, but it's the exchange that are actually the things that sometimes makes that happen. Jenna: I love it. Thank you. Tutita: Nice job. Mike: Mhret, I wanted to go back to this notion that you were talking about, which is co-naming the strategies as you were going through and reflecting on them. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, what does co-naming mean and why was it important as a part of the process? Mhret: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, I think the idea of co-naming and co-identifying the strategies was important. Just to add on to the idea, we wanted it all to be about the students and their voice, and it's their strategy and they're discussing and coming up with everything. And we know of the standard names of strategies like standard algorithm or whatever, but I think it gave them an extra confidence when it was like, "Oh, we want to call it—" I forgot the different names that they would come up with for strategies. Jenna: I think they had said maybe "stacking numbers," something like that. They would put their own words. It wasn't standard algorithm, but like, "We're going to stack the numbers on top of each other," I think was maybe one they had said. Mhret: Mm-hmm. So I think it added to that collaboration within the group that they were in and also just them owning their strategy. And so, yeah. Mike: That leads really nicely into my next question. And Anna, this is one I was going to pose to you, but everyone else is certainly welcome to contribute. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what happened when you all started to implement this strategy showcase in your classroom. So what impacts did you see on students' efficacy, their confidence, the ways that they collaborated? Could you talk a little bit about that? Anna: So I think one of the biggest things that I saw that I was very proud of was there was less of a need for me to become part of the conversation as the teacher because students were more confident to build off of each other's ideas instead of me having to jump in and be like, "Alright, what do we think about what this person did?" Students, because their work became more anonymous and because everyone was kind of working together and had different strategies, they were more open to discussing with each other or working off of each other's ideas because it wasn't just, "I don't know how to do this strategy." It was working together to really put the pieces together and come to a final agree or disagree. So it really helped me almost figure out where students are, and it brought the confidence into the students without me having to step in and really officiate the conversation. So that was the really big thing that I saw at least in some of my groups, was that huge confidence and more communication happening. Mhret: Yeah. This is Mhret. I think it was very exciting too, like Anna was saying, that—them getting excited about their work, and everything up on the board is their work. And so seeing them with a sticky note, trying to find the similarities and differences between strategies, and getting excited about what someone is doing, I think that was a very good experience and feeling for me because of the confidence that I saw grow through the process of the kids, but also the collaboration of, "It's OK to use what other people know to build upon the things that I need to build upon." And so I think it just increased collaboration, which I think is really important when we talk about reasoning and strategies. Mike: Which actually brings me to my next question, and Jenna, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about: What did you see in the ways that students were reasoning around the mathematics or engaging in problem solving? Jenna: Yeah, I know one specific example that stood out was—again, that initial thing of when we gave a student a problem, they would look to the teacher and a little bit later on in the process when giving a problem, we had done putting the strategies up, we'd cocreated the names, and then they were trying a similar problem independently. And one of my students right off the bat had that initial reaction that we would've seen a few weeks ago of being like, "I don't know what to do." And she put a question mark on the paper. So I gave her a minute and then she looked at me and I said, "Look at this strategy. Look at what you and your classmates have done to come together." And then she got a little redirection, but it wasn't me telling her what to do. And from there I stepped away and let her just reference that tool that was being displayed. And from there, she was able to show her work, she was able to choose a strategy she wanted to do, and she was able to give her answer of whether she agreed or disagreed on what she had seen. So I think it was just again, that moment of realizing that what I needed to step in and do was a lot smaller than it had previously been, and she could use this tool that we had created together and that she had created with her peers to help her answer that question. Anna: I think to add onto that, it's Anna, there was a huge spike in efficiency as well because all these different strategies were being discovered and brought to light and put onto the strategy showcase. Maybe if we're talking about multiplication, if some student had repeated addition in the beginning and they're repeatedly adding numbers together to find a multiplication product, they're realizing, "Oh my goodness, I can do this so much more efficiently if I use this person's strategy or if I try this one instead." And it gives them the confidence to try different things. Instead of getting stuck in the rut of saying, "This is my strategy and this is the way that I'm going to do it," they became a little more explorative, and they wanted to try different things out or maybe draw a picture and use that resource to differentiate their math experience. Mike: I want to mark something here that seems meaningful, which is this whole notion that you saw this spike. But the part that I'm really contemplating is when you said kids were less attached to, "This is my strategy" and more willing to adopt some of the ideas that they saw coming out of the group. That feels really, really significant, both in terms of how we want kids to engage in problem solving and also in terms of efficacy. That really I think is one to ponder for folks who are listening to the podcast, is the effect on students' ability to be more flexible in adopting ideas that may not have been theirs to begin with. Thank you for sharing that. Anna. I wonder if you could also spend a bit of time talking about some of the ways that you held onto or preserve the insights and the strategies that emerged during a showcase. Are there artifacts or ways that a teacher might save what came from a strategy showcase for future reference? Anna: So, I think the biggest thing as a takeaway and something to hold onto as a teacher who uses the strategy showcase is the ability to take a step back and allow students to utilize the resources that they created. And I think something that I used is I had a lot of intervention time and time where students were able to work in small groups and work together in teams and that sort of thing, keeping their strategies and utilizing them in groups. Remember when this person brought up this strategy, maybe we can build off of that and really utilizing their work and carrying it through instead of just putting it up and taking it down and putting up another one. Really bringing it through. And any student work is valuable. Anything that a student can bring to the table that can be used in the future, like holding onto that and re-giving them that confidence. "Remember when this person brought up that we can use a picture to help solve this problem?" Bringing that back in and recycling those ideas and bringing back in not just something that the teacher came up with, but what another student came up with, really helps any student's confidence in the classroom. Mike: So I want to ask a question, and Tutita and Mhret, I'm hoping you all can weigh in on this. If an educator wanted to implement the strategy showcase in their classroom, I want to explore a bit about how we could help them get started. And Tutita, I think I want to start with you and just say from a foundational perspective of building the understanding that helps support something like a strategy showcase, what do you think is important? Tutita: I actually think there are two critical things. The first is considering the social aspect and just building off of what Anna was saying is, if you've listened carefully, she's really honoring the individual. So instead of saying, "Look," that there was this paper up there—as teachers, we have a lot on our walls—it's actually naming the student and honoring that student, even though it's something that as a teacher, you're like, "Yes, someone said it! I want them to actually think more about that." But it's so much more powerful by giving students the credit for the thinking that they're doing to continue to advance that. And all that starts with assuming that students can. And oftentimes at the elementary level, we tend to overlook that. They're so cute—especially those kindergartens, pre-K, kindergarten—but it's amazing what they can do. So if you start with assuming that they can and waiting for their response, then following up and nurturing that, I think you as teachers will get so much more from our students and starting with that confidence. And that brings me to the next point that I think listeners who teach in the upper elementary grades or maybe middle school or high school might be like, "Oh, this sounds great. I'll start with them." But I want to caution that those students might be even more reticent because they might think that to be a good math student, you're supposed to know the answer, you're supposed to know it quickly, and there's one strategy you're supposed to use. And so, in fact, I would argue that probably those really cute pre-K and kindergartners will probably be more open because if anyone has asked a primary student to explain what they have down on paper, 83 minutes later, the story will be done. And so it might take time. You have to start with that belief and just really going with where your class and individuals are socially. Some of them might not care that you use their name. Others might, and that might take time. So taking the time and finding different ways to stay with that belief and make sure that you're transferring it to students once they have it. As you can hear, a lot of what my coauthors mentioned, then they take it from there. But you have to start with that belief at the beginning that elementary students can. Mike: Mhret, I wonder if you'd be willing to pick up on that, because I find myself thinking that the belief aspect of this is absolutely critical, and then there's the work that a teacher does to build a set of norms or routines that actually bring that belief to life, not only for yourself but for students. I wonder if you could talk about some of the ways that a teacher might set up norms, set up routines, maybe even just set up their classroom in ways that support the showcase. Mhret: Yeah. So practically, I think for the strategy showcase, an important aspect is finding a space that's accessible to students because we wanted them to be going back to it to use it as a resource. So some of us used a poster board, a whiteboard, but a vertical space in the room where students can go and see their work up I think is really important so that the classroom can feel like theirs. And then we also did a group norm during our first meeting with the kids where we co-constructed group norms with the kids of like, "What does it look like to disagree with one another?" "If you see a strategy that you haven't used, how can you be kind with our words and how we talk about different strategies that we see up there?" I think that's really important for all grades in elementary because some kids can be quick to their opinions or comments, and then providing resources that students can use to share their idea or have their idea on paper I think is important. If that's sticky notes, a blank piece of paper, pencils, just practical things like that where students have access to resources where they can be thinking through their ideas. And then, yeah, I think just constantly affirming their ideas that, as a teacher, I think—I teach second grade this year and [they are] very different from the fourth graders that I student taught—but I think just knowing that every kid can do it. They are able, they have a lot in their mind. And I think affirming what you see and building their confidence does a lot for them. And so I think always being positive in what you see and starting with what you see them doing and not the mistakes or problems that are not important. Mike: Jenna, before we go, I wanted to ask you one final question. I wonder if you could talk about the resources that you drew on when you were developing the strategy showcase. Are there any particular recommendations you would have for someone who's listening to the podcast and wants to learn a little bit more about the practices or the foundations that would be important? Or anything else that you think it would be worth someone reading if they wanted to try to take up your ideas? Jenna: I know, in general, when we were developing this project—a lot of it again came from our seminar class that we did at UConn with Tutita—and we had a lot of great resources that she provided us. But I know one thing that we would see a lot that we referenced throughout our article is the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. I think it's just really important that when you're building ideas to, one, look at research and projects that other people are doing to see connections that you can build on from your own classroom, and then also talking with your colleagues. A lot of this came from us talking and seeing what we saw in our classrooms and commonalities that we realized that we're in very different districts, we're in very different grades and what classrooms look like. Some of us were helping, pushing into a general ed classroom. Some of us were taking kids for small groups. But even across all those differences, there were so many similarities that we saw rooted in how kids approach problems or how kids thought about math. So I think also it's just really important to talk with the people that you work with and see how can you best support the students. And I think that was one really important thing for us, that collaboration along with the research that's already out there that people have done. Mike: Well, I think this is a good place to stop, but I just want to say thank you again. I really appreciate the way that you unpack the features of the strategy showcase, the way that you brought it to life in this interview. And I'm really hopeful that for folks who are listening, we've offered a spark and other people will start to take up some of the ideas and the features that you described. Thanks so much to all of you for joining us. It really has been a pleasure talking with all of you. Jenna: Thank you. Anna: Thank you Mhret: Thank you. Tutita: Thank you so much. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 6 - Christy Pettis & Terry Wyberg, The Case for Choral Counting with Fractions

Christy Pettis & Terry Wyberg, The Case for Choral Counting with Fractions ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 6 How can educators help students recognize similarities in the way whole numbers and fractions behave? And are there ways educators can build on students' understanding of whole numbers to support their understanding of fractions? The answer from today's guests is an emphatic yes. Today we're talking with Terry Wyberg and Christy Pettis about the ways choral counting can support students' understanding of fractions. BIOGRAPHIES Terry Wyberg is a senior lecturer in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at the University of Minnesota. His interests include teacher education and development, exploring how teachers' content knowledge is related to their teaching approaches. Christy Pettis is an assistant professor of teacher education at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls. RESOURCES Choral Counting & Counting Collections: Transforming the PreK-5 Math Classroom [https://www.routledge.com/Choral-Counting--Counting-Collections-Transforming-the-PreK-5-Math-Classroom/Franke-Kazemi-ChanTurrou/p/book/9781625311092] by Megan L. Franke, Elham Kazemi, and Angela Chan Turrou Teacher Education by Design [https://tedd.org/] Number Chart app [https://apps.mathlearningcenter.org/number-chart/] by The Math Learning Center TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Terry and Christy. I'm excited to talk with you both today. Christy Pettis: Thanks for having us. Terry Wyberg: Thank you. Mike: So, for listeners who don't have prior knowledge, I'm wondering if we could just offer them some background. I'm wondering if one of you could briefly describe the choral counting routine. So, how does it work? How would you describe the roles of the teacher and the students when they're engaging with this routine? Christy: Yeah, so I can describe it. The way that we usually would say is that it's a whole-class routine for, often done in kind of the middle grades. The teachers and the students are going to count aloud by a particular number. So maybe you're going to start at 5 and skip-count by 10s or start at 24 and skip-count by 100 or start at two-thirds and skip-count by two-thirds. So you're going to start at some number, and you're going to skip-count by some number. And the students are all saying those numbers aloud. And while the students are saying them, the teacher is writing those numbers on the board, creating essentially what looks like an array of numbers. And then at certain points along with that talk, the teacher will stop and ask students to look at the numbers and talk about things they're noticing. And they'll kind of unpack some of that. Often they'll make predictions about things. They'll come next, continue the count to see where those go. Mike: So you already pivoted to my next question, which was to ask if you could share an example of a choral count with the audience. And I'm happy to play the part of a student if you'd like me to. Christy: So I think it helps a little bit to hear what it would sound like. So let's start at 3 and skip-count by 3s. The way that I would usually tell my teachers to start this out is I like to call it the runway. So usually I would write the first three numbers. So I would write "3, 6, 9" on the board, and then I would say, "OK, so today we're going to start at 3 and we're going to skip-count by 3s. Give me a thumbs-up or give me the number 2 when you know the next two numbers in that count." So I'm just giving students a little time to kind of think about what those next two things are before we start the count together. And then when I see most people kind of have those next two numbers, then we're going to start at that 3 and we're going to skip-count together. Are you ready? Mike: I am. Christy: OK. So we're going to go 3… Mike & Christy: 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36. Christy: Keep going. Mike & Christy: 39, 42, 45, 48, 51. Christy: Let's stop there. So we would go for a while like that until we have an array of numbers on the board. In this case, I might've been recording them, like where there were five in each row. So it would be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 would be the first row, and the second row would say 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, and so on. So we would go that far and then I would stop and I would say to the class, "OK, take a minute, let your brains take it in. Give me a number 1 when your brain notices one thing. Show me 2 if your brain notices two things, 3 if your brain notices three things." And just let students have a moment to just take it in and think about what they notice. And once we've seen them have some time, then I would say, "Turn and talk to your neighbor, and tell them some things that you notice." So they would do that. They would talk back and forth. And then I would usually warm-call someone from that and say something like, "Terry, why don't you tell me what you and Mike talked about?" So Terry, do you have something that you would notice? Terry: Yeah, I noticed that the last column goes up by 15, Christy: The last column goes up by 15. OK, so you're saying that you see this 15, 30, 45? Terry: Yes. Christy: In that last column. And you're thinking that 15 plus 15 is 30 and 30 plus 15 is 45. Is that right? Terry: Yes. Christy: Yeah. And so then usually what I would say to the students is say, "OK, so if you also noticed that last column is increasing by 15, give me a 'me too' sign. And if you didn't notice it, show an 'open mind' sign." So I like to give everybody something they can do. And then we'd say, "Let's hear from somebody else. So how about you, Mike? What's something that you would notice?" Mike: So one of the things that I was noticing is that there's patterns in the digits that are in the ones place. And I can definitely see that because the first number 3 [is] in the first row. In the next row, the first number is 18 and the 8 is in the ones place. And then when I look at the next row, 33 is the first number in that row, and there's a 3 again. So I see this column pattern of 3 in the ones place, 8 in the ones place, 3 in the ones place, 8 in the ones place. And it looks like that same kind of a number, a different number. The same number is repeating again, where there's kind of like a number and then another number. And then it repeats in that kind of double, like two numbers and then it repeats the same two numbers. Christy: So, what I would say in that one is try to revoice it, and I'd probably be gesturing, where I'd do this. But I'd say, "OK, so Mike's noticing in this ones place, in this first column, he's saying he notices it's '3, 8, 3, 8.' And then in other columns he's noticing that they do something similar. So the next column, or whatever, is like '6, 1, 6, 1' in the ones place. Why don't you give, again, give me a 'me too' [sign] if you also noticed that pattern or an 'open mind' [sign] if you didn't." So, that's what we would do. So, we would let people share some things. We would get a bunch of noticings while students are noticing those things. I would be, like I said, revoicing and annotating on the board. So typically I would revoice it and point it out with gestures, and then I would annotate that to take a record of this thing that they've noticed on the board. Once we've gotten several students' noticings on the board, then we're going to stop and we're going to unpack some of those. So I might do something like, "Oh, so Terry noticed this really interesting thing where he said that the last column increases by 15 because he saw 15, 30, 45, and he recognized that. I'm wondering if the other columns do something like that too. Do they also increase by the same kind of number? Hmm, why don't you take a minute and look at it and then turn and talk to your neighbor and see what you notice." And we're going to get them to notice then that these other ones also increase by 15. So if that hadn't already come out, I could use it as a press move to go in and unpack that one further. And then we would ask the question, in this case, "Why do they always increase by 15?" And we might then use that question and that conversation to go and talk about Mike's observation, and to say, like, "Huh, I wonder if we could use what we just noticed here to figure out about why this idea that [the numbers in the] ones places are going back and forth between 3, 8, 3, 8. I wonder if that has something to do with this." Right? So we might use them to unpack it. They'll notice these patterns. And while the students were talking about these things, I'd be taking opportunities to both orient them to each other with linking moves to say, "Hey, what do you notice? What can you add on to what Mike said, or could you revoice it?" And also to annotate those things to make them available for conversation. Mike: There was a lot in your description, Christy, and I think that provides a useful way to understand what's happening because there's the choice of numbers, there's the choice of how big the array is when you're recording initially, there are the moves that the teacher's making. What you've set up is a really cool conversation that comes forward. We did this with whole numbers just now, and I'm wondering if we could take a step forward and think about, OK, if we're imagining a choral count with fractions, what would that look and sound like? Christy: Yeah, so one of the ones I really like to do is to do these ones that are just straight multiples, like start at 3 and skip-count by 3s. And then to either that same day or the very next day—so very, very close in time in proximity—do one where we're going to do something similar but with fractions. So one of my favorites is for the parallel of the whole number of skip-counting by 3s is we'll start at 3 fourths and we'll skip-count by 3 fourths. And when we write those numbers, we're not going to put them in simplest form; we're just going to write 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths. So in this case, I would probably set it up in the exact same very parallel structure to that other one that we just did with the whole numbers. And I would put the numbers 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths on the board. I would say, "OK, here's our first numbers. We're going to start starting at 4 fourths. We're going to skip-count by 3 fourths. And give me a thumbs-up or the show me a 2 when you know the next two numbers." And then we would skip-count them together, and we would write them on the board. And so we'd end up—and in this case I would probably arrange them again in five columns just to have them and be a parallel structure to that one that we did before with the whole numbers. So it would look like 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths, 12 fourths, 15 fourths on the first row. And then the next row, I would say 18 fourths, 21 fourths, 24 fourths, 27 fourths, 30 fourths. And again, I'd probably go all the way up until I got to 51 fourths before we'd stop and we'd look for patterns. Mike: So I think what's cool about that—it was unsaid, but it kind of implied—is that you're making a choice there. So that students had just had this experience where they were counting in increments of 3, and 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and then you start another row and you get to 30, and in this case, 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths, 12 fourths, 15 fourths. So they are likely to notice that there's something similar that's going on here. And I suspect that's on purpose. Christy: Right, that's precisely the thing that we want right here is to be able to say that fractions aren't something entirely new, something that you—just very different than anything that you've ever seen before in numbers. But to allow them to have an opportunity to really see the ways that numerators enumerate, they act like the counting numbers that they've always known, and the denominator names, and tells you what you're counting. And so it's just a nice space where, when they can see these in these parallel ways and experience counting with fractions, they have this opportunity to see some of the ways that both fraction notation works, what it's talking about, and also how the different parts of the fraction relate to things they already know with whole numbers. Mike: Well, let's dig into that a little bit more. So the question I was going to ask Terry was: Can we talk a bit more about the ways the choral counting routine can help students make sense of the mathematics of fractions? So what are some of the ideas or the features of fractions that you found choral counting really allows you to draw out and make sense of with students? Terry: Well, we know from our work with the rational number project how important language is when kids are developing an understanding of the role of the numerator and the denominator. And the choral counts really just show, like what Christy was just saying, how the numerator just enumerates and changes just like whole numbers. And then the denominator stays the same and names something. And so it's been a really good opportunity to develop language together as a class. Christy: Yeah. I think that something that's really important in these ones that you get to see when you have them. So when they're doing that language, they're also—a really important part of a choral count is that it's not just that they're hearing those things, they're also seeing the notation on the board. And because of the way that we're both making this choice to repeatedly add the same amount, right? So we're creating something that's going to have a pattern that's going to have some mathematical relationships we can really unpack. But they're also seeing the notation on there that's arranged in a very intentional way to allow them to see those patterns in rows and columns as they get to talk about them. So because those things are there, we're creating this chance now, right? So they see both the numerator and denominator. If we're doing them in parallel to things with whole numbers, they can see how both fractions are alike, things that they know with whole numbers, but also how some things are different. And instead of it being something that we're just telling them as rules, it invites them to make these observations. So in the example that I just gave you of the skip-counting, starting at 3 fourths and skip-counting by 3 fourths, every time I have done this, someone always observes that the right-hand column, they will always say it goes up by 15. And what they're observing right there is they're paying attention to the numerator and thinking, "Well, I don't really need to talk about the denominator," and it buys me this opportunity as a teacher to say, "Yes, I see that too. I see that these 15 fourths and then you get another, then you get 30 fourths and you get 45 fourths. And I see in those numerators that 15, 30, 45—just like we had with the whole numbers—and here's how I would write that as a mathematician: I would write 15 fourths plus 15 fourths equals 30 fourths." Because I'm trying to be clear about what I'm counting right now. So instead of telling it like it's a rule that you have to remember, you have to keep the same denominators when you're going to add, it instead becomes something where we get to talk about it. It's just something that we get to be clear about. And that in fractions, we also do this other piece where we both enumerate and we name, and we keep track of that when we write things down to be clear. And so it usually invites this very nice parallel conversation and opportunity just to set up the idea that when we're doing things like adding and thinking about them, that we're trying to be clear and we're trying to communicate something in the same way that we always have been. Mike: Well, Terry, it strikes me that this does set the foundation for some important things, correct? Terry: Yeah, it sets the foundation for adding and subtracting fractions and how that numerator counts things and the denominator tells you the size of the pieces. It also sets up multiplication. The last column, we can think of it as 5 groups of 3 fourths. And the next number underneath there might be 10 groups of 3 fourths. And as we start to describe or record what students' noticings are, we get a chance to highlight those features of adding fractions, subtracting fractions, multiplying fractions. Mike: We've played around the edges of a big idea here. And one of the things that I want to bring back is something we talked about when we were preparing for the interview. This idea that learners of any age, generally speaking, they want to make use of their understanding of the way that whole numbers work as they're learning about fractions. And I'm wondering if one or both of you want to say a little bit more about this. Terry: I think a mistake that we made previously in fraction teaching is we kind of stayed under 1. We just stayed and worked within 0 and 1 and we didn't go past it. And if you're going to make 1 a benchmark or 2 a benchmark or any whole number a benchmark, when you're counting by 3 fourths or 2 thirds or whatever, you have to go past it. So what choral counting has allowed us to do is to really get past these benchmarks, and kids saw patterns around those benchmarks, and they see them. And then I think we also saw a whole-number thinking get in the way. So if you ask, for example, somebody to compare 3 seventeenths and 3 twenty-thirds, they might say that 3 twenty-thirds are bigger because 23 is bigger than 17. And instead of embracing their whole-number knowledge, we kind of moved away from it. And so I think now with the choral counting, they're seeing that fractions behave like whole numbers. They can leverage that knowledge, and instead of trying to make it go away, they're using it as an asset. Mike: So the parallel that I'm drawing is, if you're trying to teach kids about the structure of numbers in whole number, if you can yourself to thinking about the whole numbers between 0 and 10, and you never worked in the teens or larger numbers, that structure's really hard to see. Am I thinking about that properly? Terry: Yes, you are. Christy: I think there's two things here to highlight. So one of them that I think Terry would say more about here is just the idea that, around the idea of benchmarks. So you're right that there's things that come out as the patterns and notation that happen because of how we write them. And when we're talking about place value notation, we really need to get into tens and really into hundreds before a lot of those things become really available to us as something we talk about, that structure of how 10 plays a special role. In fractions, a very parallel idea of these things that become friendly to us because of the notation and things we know, whole numbers act very much like that. When we're talking about rational numbers, right? So they become these nice benchmarks because they're really friendly to us, there's things that we know about them, so when we can get to them, they help us. And the choral count that we were just talking about, there's something that's a little bit different that's happening though because we're not highlighting the whole numbers in the way that we're choosing to count right there. So we're not—we're using those, I guess, improper fractions. In that case, what we're doing is we're allowing students to have an opportunity to play with this idea, the numerator and denominator or the numerator is the piece that's acting like whole numbers that they know. So when Terry was first talking about how oftentimes when we first teach fractions and we were thinking about them, we were think a lot about the denominator. The denominator is something that's new that we're putting in with fractions that we weren't ever doing before with whole numbers. And we have that denominator. We focus a lot on like, "Look, you could take a unit and you can cut it up and you can cut it up in eight pieces, and those are called eighths, or you could cut it up in 10 pieces, and those are called tenths." And we focus a lot on that because it's something that's new. But the thing that allows them to bridge from whole numbers is the thing that's the same as whole numbers. That's the numerator. And so when we want them to have chances to be able to make those connections back to the things they know and see that yes, there is something here that's new, it's the denominator, but connecting back to the things they know from whole numbers, we really do need to focus some on the numerator and letting them have a chance to play with what the numerator is, to see how it's acting, and to do things. It's not very interesting to say—to look at a bunch of things and say, like, "2 thirds plus 4 thirds equals 6 thirds," right? Because they'll just start to say, "Well, you can ignore the denominator." But when you play with it and counting and doing things like we was talking about—setting up a whole-number count and a fraction count in parallel to each other—now they get to notice things like that. [It] invites them to say things like, "Oh, so adding 15 in the whole numbers is kind of adding 15 fourths in the fourths." So they get to say this because you've kind of set it up as low-hanging fruit for them, but it's allowing them really to play with that notion of the numerator and a common denominator setting. And then later we can do other kinds of things that let them play with the denominator and what that means in those kinds of pieces. So one of the things I really like about choral counts and choral counts with fractions is it's setting up this space where the numerator becomes something that's interesting and something worth talking about in some way to be able to draw parallels and allow them to see it. And then of course, equivalency starts to come into play too. We can talk about how things like 12 fourths is equivalent to 3 wholes, and then we get to see where those play their role inside of this count too. But it's just something that I really like about choral counting with fractions that I think comes out here. And it's not quite the idea of benchmarks, but it is important. Mike: Well, let's talk a little bit about equivalency then. Terry. I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about how this routine can potentially set up a conversation around ideas related to equivalency. Terry: We could do this choral count—instead of just writing improper fractions all the way through, we could write them with mixed numbers. And as you start writing mixed numbers, the pattern becomes "3 fourths, 1 and a half, 2 and a quarter," and we can start bringing in equivalent fractions. And you still do the same five columns and make parallel connections between the whole numbers, the fractions that are written as improper fractions and the fractions with mixed numbers. And so you get many conversations about equivalencies. And this has happened almost every time I do a choral count with fractions is, the kids will comment that they stop thinking. They go, "I'm just writing these numbers down." Part of it is they're seeing equivalency, but they're also seeing patterns and letting the patterns take over for them. And we think that's a good thing rather than a bad thing. It's not that they're stopped thinking, they're just, they're just— Christy: They're experiencing the moment that patterns start to help, that pattern recognition starts to become an aid in their ability to make predictions. All of a sudden you can feel it kick online. So if you said it in the context, then what happens is even in the mixed-number version or in the improper-number version, that students will then have a way of talking about that 12 fourths is equivalent to 3, and then you're going to see that whole-number diagonal sort of pop in, and then you'll see those other ones, even in the original version of it. Terry: Yeah, as we started to play around with this and talk with people, we started using the context of sandwiches, fourths of sandwiches. And so when they would start looking at that, the sandwiches gave them language around wholes. So the equivalence that they saw, they had language to talk about. That's 12 fourths of a sandwich, which would be 3 full sandwiches. And then we started using paper strips with the choral counts and putting paper strips on each piece so kids could see that when it fills up they can see a full sandwich. And so we get both equivalencies, we get language, we get connections between images, symbols, and context. Mike: One of the questions that I've been asking folks is: At the broadest level, regardless of the number being counted or whether it's a whole number or a rational number, what do you think the choral counting routine is good for? Christy: So I would say that I think of these routines, like a choral count or a number talk or other routines like that that you would be doing frequently in a classroom, they really serve as a way of building mathematical language. So they serve as a language routine. And then one of the things that's really important about it is that it's not just that there's skip-counting, but that count. So you're hearing the way that patterns happen in language, but they're seeing it at the same time. And then they're having chances, once that static set of representations on the board, those visuals of the numbers has been created and set up in this structured way, it's allowing them to unpack those things. So they get to first engage in language and hearing it in this multimodal way. So they hear it and they see it, but then they get to unpack it and they get to engage in language in this other way where they get to say, "Well, here's things that stand out to me." So they make these observations and they will do it using informal language. And then it's buying the teacher an opportunity then to not only highlight that, but then to also help formalize that language. So they might say, "Oh, I saw a column goes up by 5." And I would get to say, "Oh, so you're saying that you add each time to this column, and here's how a mathematician would write that." And we would write that with those symbols. And so now they're getting chances to see how their ideas are mathematical ideas and they're being expressed using the language and tools of math. "Here's the way you said it; here's what your brain was thinking about. And here's what that looks like when a mathematician writes it." So they're getting this chance to see this very deeply authentic way and just also buying this opportunity not only to do it for yourself, but then to take up ideas of others. "Oh, who else saw this column?" Or, "Do you think that we could extend that? Do you think it's anywhere else?" And they get to then immediately pick up that language and practice it and try it. So I look at these as a really important opportunity, not just for building curiosity around mathematics, but for building language. Mike: Let's shift a little bit to teacher moves, to teacher practice, which I think y'all were kind of already doing there when you were talking about opportunities. What are some of the teacher moves that you think are really critical to bringing choral counting with fractions particularly to life? Terry: I think just using the strips to help them visualize it, and it gave them some language. I think the context of sandwiches, or whatever it happens to be, gives them some ways to name what the unit is. We found starting with that runway, it really helps to have something that they can start to kind of take off and start the counting routine. We also found that the move where you ask them, "What do you notice? What patterns do you notice?," we really reserve for three and a half rows. So we try to go three full rows and a half and it gives everybody a chance to see something. If I go and do it too quick, I find that I don't get everybody participating in that, noticing as well, as doing three and a half rows. It just seems to be a magic part of the array is about three and a half rows in. Mike: I want to restate and mark a couple things that you said, Terry. One is this notion of a runway that you want to give kids. And that functions as a way to help them start to think about, again, "What might come next?" And then I really wanted to pause and talk about this idea of, you want to go at least three rows, or at least—is it three or three and a half? Terry: Three and a half. Christy: When you have three of something, then you can start to use patterns. You need at least those three for even to think there could be a pattern. So when you get those, at least three of them, and they have that pattern to do—and like Terry was saying, when you have a partial row, then what happens is those predictions can come from two directions. You could keep going in the row, so you could keep going horizontally, or you could come down a column. And so now it kind of invites people to do things in more than one way when you stop mid-row. Mike: So let me ask a follow-up question. When a teacher stops or pauses the count, what are some of the first things you'd love to see them do to spark some of the pattern recognition or the pattern seeking that you just talked about? Christy: Teacher moves? Mike: Yeah. Christy: OK. So we do get to work with preservice teachers all the time. So this is one of my favorite parts of this piece of it. So what do you do as a teacher that you want? So we're going to want an array up there that has enough, at least three of things in some different ways people can start to see some patterns. You can also, when you do one of these counts, you'll hear the moment—what Terry described earlier as "stop thinking." You can hear a moment where people, it just gets easier to start, the pattern starts to help you find what comes next, and you'll hear it. The voices will get louder and more confident as you do it. So you want a little of that. Once you're into that kind of space, then you can stop. You know because you've just heard them get a little more confident that their brains are going. So you're kind of looking for that moment. Then you're going to stop in there again partway through a row so that you've got a little bit of runway in both directions. So they can keep going horizontally, they can come down vertically. And you say, "OK," and you're going to give them now a moment to think. And so that stopping for a second before they just talk, creating space for people to formulate some language, to notice some things is really, really important. So we're going to create some thinking space, but we know there's some thinking happening, so you just give them a way to do it. Our favorite way to do it is to, instead of just doing a thumbs-up and thumbs-down in front of the chest, we just do a silent count at the chest rather than hands going up. We just keep those hands out of the air, and I say, "Give me a 1 at your chest"—so a silent number 1 right at your chest—"when you've noticed one thing. And if you notice two things, give me a 2. And if you notice three things, give me a 3." They will absolutely extrapolate from there. And you'll definitely see some very anxious person who definitely wants to say something with a 10 at their chest. But what you're doing at that moment is you're buying people time to think, and you're buying yourself as a teacher some insight into where they are. So you now get to look out and you can see who's kind of taking a while for that 1 to come up and who has immediately five things, and other things. And you can use that along with your knowledge of the students now to think about how you want to bring people into that discussion. Somebody with 10 things, they do not need to be the first person you call on. They are desperate to share something, and they will share something no matter when you call on them. So you want to use this information now to be able to get yourself some ideas of, like, "OK, I want to make sure that I'm creating equitable experiences, that I want to bring a lot of voices in." And so the first thing we do is we have now a sense of that because we just watched, we gave ourselves away into some of the thinking that's happening. And then we're going to partner that immediately with a turn and talk. So first they're going to think and then they're going to have a chance to practice that language in a partnership. And then, again, you're buying yourself a chance to listen into those conversations and to know that they have something to share. And to bring it in, I will pretty much always make that a warm call. I won't say, "Who wants to share?" I will say, "Terry or Mike, let's hear." And then I won't just say, "Terry, what was your idea?" I would say, "Terry, tell me something that either you or Mike shared that you noticed." So we'll give a choice. So now they've got a couple ways in. You know they just said something. So you're creating this space where you're really lowering the temperature of how nerve-racking it is to share something. They have something to say, and they have something to do. So I want all of those moves. And then I kind of alluded to it when we were doing the practice one, but the other one I really like is to have all-class gestures so that everyone constantly has a way they need to engage and listen. And so I like to use ones not just the "me too" gesture, but we do the "open mind" gesture as well so that everyone has one of the two. Either it's something that you were thinking or they've just opened your mind to a new idea. And it looks, we use it kind of like an open book at your forehead. So, the best way I can describe it to you, you put both hands at your forehead and you touch them like they're opening up, opening doors. And so everyone does one of those, right? And then as a teacher, you now have some more information because you could say, "Oh, Terry, you just said that was open mind. You hadn't noticed it. Well, tell us something different you noticed." So you get that choice of what you're doing. So you're going to use these things as a teacher to not just get ideas out but to really be able to pull people in ways they've sort of communicated something to you that they have something to share. So I love it for all the ways we get to practice these teacher moves that don't just then work in just this choral count, but that do a really great job in all these other spaces that we want to work on with students too, in terms of equitably and creating talk, orienting students to one another, asking them to listen to and build on each other's ideas. Terry: When you first start doing this, you want to just stop and listen. So I think some of my mistakes early on was trying to annotate too quickly. But I found that a really good teacher move is just to listen. And I get to listen when they're think-pair-sharing, I get a chance to listen when they're just thinking together, I get a chance to listen when they describe it to the whole class. And then I get to think about how I'm going to write and record what they said so that it amplifies what they're saying to the whole class. And that's the annotation piece. And getting better at annotating is practicing what you're going to write first and then they always say something a little different than what you anticipate, but you've already practiced. So you can get your colors down, you can get how you're going to write it without overlapping too much with your annotations. Mike: I think that feels like a really important point for someone who is listening to the podcast and thinking about their own practice. Because if I examine my own places where I sometimes jump before I need to, it often is to take in some ideas but maybe not enough and then start to immediately annotate. And I'm really drawn to this idea that there's something to, I want to listen enough to kind of hear the body of ideas that are coming out of the group before I get to annotation. Is that a fair kind of summary of the piece that you think is really important about that? Terry: Yes. And as I'm getting better with it, I'm listening more and then writing after I think I know what they're saying. And I check with them as I'm writing. Mike: So you started to already go to my next question, which is about annotation. I heard you mention color, so I'm curious: What are some of the ideas about annotation that you think are particularly important when you are doing it in the context of a choral count? Christy: Well, yeah, I think a choral count. So color helps just to distinguish different ideas. So that's a useful tool for that piece of it. What we typically want, people will notice patterns usually in lines. And so you're going to get vertical lines and horizontal lines, but you'll also get diagonals. That's usually where those will be. And they will also notice things that are recognizable. So like the 15, 30, 45 being a number sequence that is a well-known one is typically wouldn't going to be the first one we notice. Another one that happens along a diagonal, and the examples we gave will be 12, 24, 36, it comes on a diagonal. People will often notice it because it's there. So then what you want is you're going to want to draw in those lines that help draw students' eyes, other students' eyes, not the ones who are seeing it, but the ones who weren't seeing it to that space so they can start to see that pattern too. So you're going to use a little bit of lines or underlining that sort of thing. These definitely do over time get messier and messier as you add more stuff to them. So color helps just distinguish some of those pieces. And then what you want is to leave yourself some room to write things. So if you have fractions, for example, you're going to need some space between things because fractions take up a little bit more room to write. And you definitely want to be able to write "plus 15 fourths," not just, "plus 15." And so you need to make sure you're leaving yourself enough room and practicing and thinking. You also have to leave enough room for if you want to continue the count, because one of the beautiful things you get to do here is to make predictions once you've noticed patterns. And so you're going to probably want to ask at some point, "Well, what number do you think comes in some box further down the road?" So you need to leave yourself enough room then to continue that count to get there. So it's just some of the things you have to kind of think about as a teacher as you do it, and then as you annotate, so you're kind of thinking about trying to keep [the numbers] pretty straight so that those lines are available to students and then maybe drawing them in so students can see them. And then probably off to the side writing things like, if there's addition or multiplication sentences that are coming out of it, you probably want to leave yourself some room to be able to sometimes write those. In a fraction one, which Terry talked about a little bit, because equivalency is something that's available now where we can talk about, for example, the really common one that would come out in our example would be that 12 fourths is equivalent to 3 wholes. Somehow you're going to have to ask this question of, "Well, why is that? Where could we see it?" And so in that case, usually we would draw the picture of the sandwiches, which will be rectangles all cut up in the same way. So not like grilled cheese sandwiches in fourth, but like a subway sandwich in fourths. And then you're going to need some space to be able to draw those above it and below it. So again, you're kind of thinking about what's going to make this visible to students in a way that's meaningful to them. So you're going to need some space to be left for those things. What I find is that I typically end up having to write some things, and then sometimes after the new idea comes in, I might have to erase a little bit of what's there to make some more room for the writing. But I would say with fractions, it's going to be important to think about leaving enough space between, because you're probably going to need a little bit of pictures sometimes to help make sense of that equivalency. That's a really useful one. And leaving enough space for the notation itself, it takes a little bit of room. Mike: Every time I do a podcast, I get to this point where I say to the guest or guests, "We could probably talk for an hour or more, and we're out of time." So I want to extend the offer that I often share with guests, which is if someone wanted to keep learning about choral counting or more generally about some of the ideas about fractions that we're talking about, are there any particular resources that the two of you would recommend? Terry: We started our work with the Choral Counting & Counting Collections [https://www.routledge.com/Choral-Counting--Counting-Collections-Transforming-the-PreK-5-Math-Classroom/Franke-Kazemi-ChanTurrou/p/book/9781625311092] book by Megan Franke[, Elham Kazemi, and Angela Chan Turrou], and it really is transformational, both routines. Christy: And it has fractions and decimals and ideas in it too. So you can see it across many things. Well, it's just, even just big numbers, small numbers, all kinds of different things. So teachers at different grade levels could use it. The Teacher Education by Design [website], at tedd.org [http://tedd.org], has a beautiful unit on counting collections for teachers. So if you're interested in learning more about it, it has videos, it has planning guides, things like that to really help you get started. Terry: And we found you just have to do them. And so as we just started to do them, writing it on paper was really helpful. And then The Math Learning Center has an app that you can use—the Number Chart app [https://apps.mathlearningcenter.org/number-chart/]—and you can write [the choral counts] in so many different ways and check your timing out. And it's been a very helpful tool in preparing for quality choral counts with fractions and whole numbers. Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Christy and Terry, I want to thank you both so much for joining us. It has really just absolutely been a pleasure chatting with you both. Christy: So much fun getting to talk to you. Terry: Thank you. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 5 - Ramsey Merritt, Improving Students' Turn & Talk Experience

Ramsey Merritt, Improving Students' Turn & Talk Experience ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 5 Most educators know what a turn and talk is—but are your students excited to do them? In this episode, we put turn and talks under a microscope. We'll talk with Ramsey Merritt from the Harvard Graduate School of Education about ways to revamp and better scaffold turn and talks to ensure your students are having productive mathematical discussions. BIOGRAPHY Ramsey Merritt is a lecturer in education at Brandeis University and the director of leadership development for Reading (MA) Public Schools. He has taught and coached at every level of the U.S. school system in both public and independent schools from New York to California. Ramsey also runs an instructional leadership consulting firm, Instructional Success Partners, LLC. Prior to his career in education, he worked in a variety of roles at the New York Times. He is currently completing his doctorate in education leadership at Harvard Graduate School of Education. Ramsey's book, Diving Deeper with Upper Elementary Math [https://www.routledge.com/Diving-Deeper-with-Upper-Elementary-Math-Low-Prep-High-Reward-Challenging-Math-Enrichment-Activities-Grades-3-5/Star-Merritt/p/book/9781041137290], will be released in spring 2026. TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Ramsey. So great to have you on. Ramsey Merritt: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Mike: So turn and talk's been around for a while now, and I guess I'd call it ubiquitous at this point. When I visit classrooms, I see turn and talks happen often with quite mixed results. And I wanted to start with this question: At the broadest level, what's the promise of a turn and talk? When strategically done well, what's it good for? Ramsey: I think at the broadest level, we want students talking about their thinking and we also want them listening to other students' thinking and ideally being open to reflect, ask questions, and maybe even change their minds on their own thinking or add a new strategy to their thinking. That's at the broadest level. I think if we were to zoom in a little bit, I think turn and talks are great for idea generation. When you are entering a new concept or a new lesson or a new unit, I think they're great for comparing strategies. They're obviously great for building listening skills with the caveat that you put structures in place for them, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. And building critical-thinking and questioning skills as well. I think I've also seen turn and talks broadly categorized into engagement, and it's interesting when I read that because to me I think about engagement as the teacher's responsibility and what the teacher needs to do no matter what the pedagogical tool is. So no matter whether it's a turn and talk or something else, engagement is what the teacher needs to craft and create a moment. And I think a lot of what we'll probably talk about today is about crafting moments for the turn and talk. In other words, how to engage students in a turn and talk, but not that a turn and talk is automatically engagement. Mike: I love that, and I think the language that you've used around crafting is really important. And it gets to the heart of what I was excited about in this conversation because a turn and talk is a tool, but there is an art and a craft to designing its implementation that really can make or break the tool itself. Ramsey: Yeah. If we look back a little bit as to where turn and talk came from, I sort of tried to dig into the papers on this. And what I found was that it seems as if turn and talks may have been a sort of spinoff of the think-pair-share, which has been around a little bit longer. And what's interesting in looking into this is, I think that turn and talks were originally positioned as a sort of cousin of think-pair-share that can be more spontaneous and more in the moment. And I think what has happened is we've lost the "think" part. So we've run with it, and we've said, "This is great," but we forgot that students still need time to think before they turn and talk. And so what I see a lot is, it gets to be somewhat too spontaneous, and certain students are not prepared to just jump into conversations. And we have to take a step back and sort of think about that. Mike: That really leads into my next question quite well because I have to confess that when I've attended presentations, there are points in time when I've been asked to turn and talk when I can tell you I had not a lot of interest nor a lot of clarity about what I should do. And then there were other points where I couldn't wait to start that conversation. And I think this is the craft and it's also the place where we should probably think about, "What are the pitfalls that can derail or have a turn and talk kind of lose the value that's possible?" How would you talk about that? Ramsey: Yeah, it is funny that we as adults have that reaction when people say, "Turn and talk." The three big ones that I see the most, and I should sort of say here, I've probably been in 75 to 100 buildings and triple or quadruple that for classrooms. So I've seen a lot of turn and talks, just like you said. And the three big ones for me, I'll start with the one that I see less frequently but still see it enough to cringe and want to tell you about it. And it's what I call the "stall" turn and talk. So it's where teachers will sometimes use it to buy themselves a little time. I have literally heard teachers say something along the lines of, "OK, turn and talk to your neighbor while I go grab something off the printer." But the two biggest ones I think lead to turn and talk failure are a lack of specificity. And in that same vein too, what are you actually asking them to discuss? So there's a bit of vagueness in the prompting, so that's one of the big ones. The other big one for me is, and it seems so simple, and I think most elementary teachers are very good at using an engaging voice. They've learned what tone does for students and what signals tone sends to them about, "Is now the time to engage? Should I be excited?" But I so often see the turn and talk launched unenthusiastically, and that leads to an engagement deficit. And that's what you're starting out with if you don't have a good launch: Students are already sort of against you because you haven't made them excited to talk. Mike: I mean those things resonate. And I have to say there are some of them that I cringe because I've been guilty of doing, definitely the first thing when I've been unprepared. But I think these two that you just shared, they really go to this question of how intentionally I am thinking about building that sense of engagement and also digging into the features that make a turn and talk effective and engaging. So let's talk about the features that make turn and talks effective and engaging for students. I've heard you talk about the importance of picking the right moment for a turn and talk. So what's that mean? Ramsey: So for me, I break it down into three key elements. And one of them, as you say, is the timing. And this might actually be the most important element, and it goes back to the origin story, is: If you ask a question, and say you haven't planned a turn and talk, but you ask a question to a whole group and you see 12 hands shoot up, that is an ideal moment for a turn and talk. You automatically know that students are interested in this topic. So I think that's the sort of origin story, is: Instead of whipping around the room and asking all 12 students—because especially at the elementary level, if students don't get their chance to share, they are very disappointed. So I've also seen these moments drag out far too long. So it's kind of a good way to get everyone's voice heard. Maybe they're not saying it out to the whole group, but they get to have everyone's voice heard. And also you're buying into the engagement that's already there. So that would be the more spontaneous version, but you can plan in your lesson planning to time a turn and talk at a specific moment if you know your students well enough that you know can get them engaged in. And so that leads to one of the other points is the launch itself. So then you're really thinking about, "OK, I think this could be an interesting moment for students. Let me think a little bit deeper about what the hook is." Almost every teacher knows what a hook is, but they typically think about the hook at the very top of their lesson. And they don't necessarily think about, "How do I hook students in to every part of my lesson?" And maybe it's not a full 1-minute launch, maybe it's not a full hook, but you've got to reengage students, especially now in this day and time, we're seeing students with increasingly smaller attention spans. So it's important to think about how you're launching every single piece of your lesson. And then the third one, which goes against that origin story that I may or may not even be right about, but it goes against that sort of spontaneous nature of turn and talks, is: I think the best turn and talks are usually planned out in advance. So for me it's planning, timing, and launching. Those are my elements to success when I'm coaching teachers on doing a turn and talk. Mike: Another question that I wanted to unpack is: Talk about what. The turn and talk is a vehicle, but there's also content, right? So I'm wondering about that. And then I'm also wondering are there prompts or particular types of questions that educators can use that are more interesting and engaging, and they help draw students in and build that engagement experience you were talking about? Ramsey: Yeah, and it's funny you say, "Talk about what" because that's actually feedback that I've given to teachers, when I say, "How did that go for you?" And they go, "Well, it went OK." And I say, "Well, what did you ask them to talk about? Talk about what is important to think about in that planning process." So I hate to throw something big out there, but I would actually argue that at this point, we have seen the turn and talk sort of devolve into something that is stigmatized that often is vague. So what if instead of calling everything a turn and talk, you had specific types of turn and talks in your classroom. And these would take a little time to routinize; students would have to get used to them. But one idea I had is: What if you just called one "pick a side"? Pick a side, it tells the students right away what they need to do; it's extremely specific. So you're giving them one or two or—well not one, you're giving them two or three strategies, and you're telling them, "You have to pick one of these. And you're going to be explaining to your partner your rationale as to why you think that strategy works best or most efficiently." Or maybe it's an error analysis kind of thing. Maybe you plant one n as wrong, one n as right. And then you still ask them, "Pick a side here. Who do you agree with?" And then you also get a check for understanding because the students around the room who are picking the wrong one, you're picking up data on what they understand about the topic. Another one you can do is, you could just call it "justify your thinking." Justify your thinking. So that just simply says to them, "I have to explain to the person next to me why I'm thinking the way that I'm thinking about this prompt or this problem." So that could also be a "help their thinking." So maybe you put up someone's thinking on the board that is half baked, and now their job is to help that person. So that's a sort of deeper knowledge kind of thing too. And then the last one is we can turn the "What do you notice? What do you wonder?" [activity] into a routine that is very similar to a turn and talk, where both people have an opportunity to share what they're wondering or what they're noticing. But I think no matter what you call them, no matter how you routinize them, I think it's important to be more specific than "turn and talk." Mike: You use the word routinized. It's making me think a lot about why we find routines to have value, right? Because once you teach a particular routine, kids know what it is to do said routine. They know what it is to show up when you're doing Which one doesn't belong? They know the role that they play. And I think part of what really jumps out is: If you had a series of more granular turn and talk experiences that you were trying to cultivate, kids actually have a sense of what it is to do a turn and talk if you are helping thinking, or if you are agreeing or disagreeing, or whatever the choice might be. Ramsey: That's right. For me, everything, even when I'm working with middle and high school teachers, I say, "The more that you can put structures in place that remove those sort of barriers for thinking, the better off you're going to be." And so we could talk more too about how to differentiate and scaffold turn and talk. Sometimes that gets forgotten as well. But I think the other piece I would love to point out here is around—you're right, turn and talk is so ubiquitous. And what that means, what I've seen in schools, if I've seen, I'll go into a school and I might watch four different teachers teach the same lesson and the turn and talk will look and feel differently in each room. So the other advantage to being more specific is that if a student—let's say they went to, because even in an elementary school you might go to a specialist, you might go to art class. And that teacher might use a turn and talk. And what happens is they sort of get this general idea around the turn and talk and then they come into your room with whatever the turn and talk was in the last class or however the teacher used it last year. So to me there's also a benefit in personalizing it to your room as well so that you can get rid of some of that stigma if it wasn't going well for the student before, especially if you then go in and scaffold it. Mike: Let's talk a little bit about those scaffolds and maybe dig in a little bit deeper to some of the different kinds of routinized turn and talks. I'm wondering if you wanted to unpack anything in particular that you think would really be important for a teacher to think about as they're trying to take up the ideas that we've been discussing. Ramsey: And one of the simplest ones to implement is the Partner A, Partner B routine. I think maybe many of your listeners will be like, "Yeah, I use that." But one of the pieces that's really important there is that you really hold students accountable to honoring Partner A's time. So when Partner A is speaking, Partner B needs to be trying to make—you know, not everybody can do the eye contact thing, but there are some things that you can recommend and suggest for them. Maybe they have something to take notes on. So this could be having whiteboards at your rug, it could be clipboards, it could be that they have a turn and talk thought-catcher notebook or folder. And it doesn't matter what it is, but not everyone has the same processing skills. So we think about turn and talk sometimes as spontaneous, but we're forgetting that 12 students raised their hand and they were eager. What about the other 12 or 15? If they didn't raise their hand, it could be that they're shy but they have something on their mind. But it also could be that you just threw out a prompt and they haven't fully processed it yet. We know kids process things at different times and at different speeds. So incorporating in that—maybe it's even a minute up top. Everybody's taking their silent and solo minute to think about this prompt. Then Partner A is going to go. It's about equity and voice across the room. It's about encouraging listening, it's about giving think time. Mike: Well, I want to stop and mark a couple things. What occurs to me is that in some ways a podcast interview like this is one long turn and talk in the sense that you and I are both listening and talking with one another. And as you were talking, one of the things I realized is I didn't have a piece of paper with me. And what you were saying really connects deeply because even if it's just jotting down a word or two to help me remember that was a salient point or this is something that I want to follow up on, that's really critical. Otherwise, it really can feel like it can evaporate and then you're left not being able to explore something that might've been really important. I think the other thing that jumps out is the way that this notion of having a notepad or something to jot is actually a way to not necessarily just privilege spoken communication. That if I'm going to process or if I'm going to try to participate, having something like that might actually open up space for a kid whose favorite thing to do isn't to talk and process as they're talking. Does that make sense? Ramsey: Totally. I had a student in a program I was working with this summer who was 13 years old but was selectively mute. And the student teachers who were working in this room wanted to still be able to do a turn and talk. And they had her still partner with people, but she wrote down sentences and she literally held up her whiteboard and then the other student responded to the sentence that she wrote down on her whiteboard. So that's real. And to your other point about being able to jot down so you can remember—yeah, we have to remember we're talking about six-, seven-, eight-, nine-year olds. We're fully functioning adults and we still need to jot things down. So imagine when your brain is not even fully developed. We can't expect them to remember something from when they haven't been allowed to interrupt the other. And so I think going on now what you're saying is, that then makes me think about the Partner A, Partner B thing could also sort of tamper down the excitement a little bit if you make another student wait. So you also have to think about maybe that time in between, you might need to reengage. That's my own thinking right now, evolving as we're talking. Mike: So in some ways this is a nice segue to something else that you really made me think about. When we were preparing for this interview, much of what I was thinking about is the role of the teacher in finding the moment, as you said, where you can build excitement and build engagement, or thinking about the kind of prompts that have a specificity and how that could impact the substance of what kids are talking about. But what really jumped out from our conversation is that there's also a receptive side of turn and talk, meaning that there are people who are talking, but we also don't want the other person to just be passive. What does it look like to support the listening side of turn and talk? And I would love it if you would talk about the kinds of things you think it's important for educators to think about when they're thinking about that side of turn and talk. Ramsey: I would say don't forget about sentence starters that have to do with listening. So often when we're scaffolding, we're thinking about, "How do I get them to share out? How do I get them to be able to address this prompt?" But one of the easiest scaffolds that I've heard for listening—and it works very, very well—is, "What I heard you say is, blank." And so then the receptive student knows that a—tells them they have to be listening pretty carefully because they're about to be asked to repeat what the other person said. And this is an age-old elementary school sort of piece of pedagogy, is a call and response situation. But then we want to give them a stem that allows them maybe to ask a question. So it's, "What I heard you say was, blank. What I'm wondering is, blank." So that takes it to the next thinking level. But again, it's about being really specific and very intentional with your students and saying, "When it's Partner B's turn, you must lead with, 'What I heard you say is,' and only then can you get to your thinking or asking questions." Mike: That's huge. I think particularly when you think about the fact that there may be status issues between Partner A and Partner B. If Partner A is seen as or sees themselves as someone who's good at math and that's less true for Partner B, the likelihood of actually listening in a productive way seems like it's in danger at the very least. So I see these as tools that really do, one, build a level of accountability responsibility, but also level the playing field when it comes to things like status between two students. Ramsey: I would agree with that, yeah. I think, too, we always want to be mixing our groups. I think sometimes you get, when I think about those sort of people or those students who—you can walk into any classroom and you right away can look around the room, if you've seen enough math teaching, you can see the students who have the most confidence in math. So another piece to sort of leveling that field is making sure that your turn and talks are not always built on skill or high-level conceptual understanding. So that's where it might be helpful to have a more low-floor task, like a What do you notice? What do you wonder? But using the turn and talk routine of that. So it gives people more of a chance to get involved even when they don't have the highest level. It's kind of like the same idea with a Which one doesn't belong? [task] or a typical number talk. But, so you as the teachers have to be thinking about, "OK, yesterday we did one that was comparing two people's strategies, and I know that some of my students didn't quite understand either one of them. So today, in order to rebuild some of that confidence, I might do a version of a turn and talk that is much more open to different kinds of thinking." Mike: You started to go there in this last conversation we had about supporting the receptive side of turn and talk. I did want to ask if we can go a little bit deeper and think about tools like anchor charts. And you already mentioned sentence prompts, but sentence frames. To what extent do you feel like those can be helpful in building the kinds of habits we're talking about, and do you have any thoughts about those or any other resources that you think are important scaffolds? Ramsey: Yeah. I have seen some really, really wonderful teachers bring in such a simple way of activating an anchor chart and that is especially—it's easier to do an inquiry-based learning, but I think you can do it in any kind of classroom—is, when a student presents their thinking early on in a unit, and let's say we're talking about comparing fractions. And they say, "This is how I compared fractions," and you're annotating and you're charting it up for them as the teacher, you can call that strategy, "Maya's strategy." And so now it has a little bit more stickiness for both the students and for you. Now you know that there's a specific mathematical name for that strategy, but the students don't necessarily need to know that. You could put it in parentheses if you want. But I have seen that be really effective, and I've actually heard other students go, "I'm going to use Maya's strategy for this one," and able to then look and reference it. I think what happens sometimes with the anchor charts is, we still live in a sort of Pinterest world, and some people want those anchor charts to be beautiful, but they're not actually useful because it was drawn up perfectly and it's lovely and it's pretty, but the students don't have a real connection to it. So the other piece to that is the cocreation of the anchor chart. So it's not just naming the student; it's also going through it step by step. Maybe they're leading through it, maybe you're guiding it. Maybe you're asking probing questions. Maybe you throw in a turn and talk in the middle of that sort of exploration. And then students have a connection to that piece of paper. Anchor charts that have been created during your prep period, I guarantee you will have very little effect. So that's how I feel about those. I also love, I call them like mini anchor charts, but they sit on tables. In recent years I've seen more and more, especially in elementary classrooms—and I've encouraged them at the middle school and the high school level—of putting in a little, I don't really know the best way to describe it for listeners, but it sits on the tabletop, and it's almost like a placard holder. And inside of that you put a mini version of an anchor chart that sits at the students' tables. So if you're doing turn and talks at their desks, and they're sitting in desks of four, and that's right there in front of them with some sentence starters or maybe your very specific routines—pick a side!—and then you have the three steps to picking aside underneath. If that's sitting on the table right in front of them, they are much more likely to reference it than if it's on the wall across the room. That gets a little trickier if you're down at the rug if you're doing turn and talks down at the rug, but hey, you can get a slightly bigger one and stick a few down on the rug around them too if you really need to. Mike: I love that. That seems powerful and yet imminently practical. Ramsey: I've seen it work. Mike: Well, this happens to me every time I do a podcast. I have a lovely conversation, and we get close to the end of it, and I find myself asking: For listeners, what recommendations do you have for people who either want to learn more or would like to get started implementing some of the ideas we discussed today? Ramsey: Sure. I mean the biggest one that I tell both new teachers and veterans when you're looking to sort of improve on your practice is to go watch someone else teach. So it's as simple as asking a colleague, "Hey, do you know anybody who does this really well?" In fact, I've led some [professional development trainings] at schools where I've said, "Who in the room is great at this?" And a few people will throw their hands up, and I go, "Great. Instead of me explaining it, I'm going to have you tell us why you're so successful at that." So the easiest one is to go watch someone who has this down. But for some of the things that I've mentioned, I would think about not biting off too much. So if you are someone who your turn and talks, you readily admit that they're not specific, they're fully routinized, and they don't go well for you, I would not recommend putting in four new routines tomorrow, the A/B partner thing, and making the anchor charts for the tables all at once. What I always say is try one thing and also be transparent with the students. It goes a really long way, even with seven-year-olds, when you say, "Alright guys, we're going to do a new version of the turn and talk today because I've noticed that some of you have not been able to share as much as I would like you to. So we're going to try this, which is for me, I hope it allows both people to share and afterwards you can let me know how that felt." Students really appreciate that gesture, and I think that's really important if you are going to try something new to sort of be transparent about it. Oftentimes when teachers implement something new, it can feel like, not a punishment, but it's almost like a, "Ooh, why is she changing this up on us?" So letting them know also creates a warmer space too, and it shows them that you're learning, you're growing. Mike: I love that, and I think that's a great place to stop. Ramsey, thank you so much. It has really been a pleasure talking with you. Ramsey: Thank you. Like you said, I could do it all day, so I really appreciate it. I wish everyone out there well, and thanks again. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org