Rounding Up

William Zahner, Understanding the Role of Language in Math Classrooms ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 17 How can educators understand the relationship between language and the mathematical concepts and skills students engage with in their classrooms? And how might educators think about the mathematical demands and the language demands of tasks when planning their instruction?  In this episode, we discuss these questions with Bill Zahner, director of the Center for Research in Mathematics and Science Education at San Diego State University. BIOGRAPHY Bill Zahner is a professor in the mathematics department at San Diego State University and the director of the Center for Research in Mathematics and Science Education. Zahner's research is focused on improving mathematics learning for all students, especially multilingual students who are classified as English Learners and students from historically marginalized communities that are underrepresented in STEM fields. RESOURCES Teaching Math to Multilingual Learners, Grades K–8 by Kathryn B. Chval, Erin Smith, Lina Trigos-Carrillo, and Rachel J. Pinnow [https://www.corwin.com/books/multilingual-success-in-math-272643?srsltid=AfmBOor4yTyy-IbOxAK2bzJBcINQZ3WdOn5V1lRvDMnV3bbcWuHnbKZz] National Council of Teachers of Mathematics [https://www.nctm.org/] Mathematics Teacher: Learning and Teaching PK– 12 [https://pubs.nctm.org/view/journals/mtlt/mtlt-overview.xml] English Learners Success Forum [https://www.elsuccessforum.org/] SDSU-ELSF Video Cases for Professional Development [https://elsf.sdsu.edu/] The Math Learning Center materials [https://store.mathlearningcenter.org/s/] Bridges in Mathematics curriculum [https://www.mathlearningcenter.org/curriculum/bridges-mathematics] Bridges in Mathematics Teachers Guides [https://teach.mathlearningcenter.org/curriculum/brk] [BES login required] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: How can educators understand the way that language interacts with the mathematical concepts and skills their students are learning? And how can educators focus on the mathematics of a task without losing sight of its language demands as their planning for instruction? We'll examine these topics with our guest, Bill Zahner, director of the Center for Research in Mathematics and Science Education at San Diego State University.  Welcome to the podcast, Bill. Thank you for joining us today. Bill Zahner: Oh, thanks. I'm glad to be here. Mike: So, I'd like to start by asking you to address a few ideas that often surface in conversations around multilingual learners and mathematics. The first is the notion that math is universal, and it's detached from language. What, if anything, is wrong with this idea and what impact might an idea like that have on the ways that we try to support multilingual learners? Bill: Yeah, thanks for that. That's a great question because I think we have a common-sense and strongly held idea that math is math no matter where you are and who you are. And of course, the example that's always given is something like 2 plus 2 equals 4, no matter who you are or where you are. And that is true, I guess [in] the sense that 2 plus 2 is 4, unless you're in base 3 or something. But that is not necessarily what mathematics in its fullness is. And when we think about what mathematics broadly is, mathematics is a way of thinking and a way of reasoning and a way of using various tools to make sense of the world or to engage with those tools [in] their own right. And oftentimes, that is deeply embedded with language.  Probably the most straightforward example is anytime I ask someone to justify or explain what they're thinking in mathematics. I'm immediately bringing in language into that case. And we all know the old funny examples where a kid is asked to show their thinking and they draw a diagram of themselves with a thought bubble on a math problem. And that's a really good case where I think a teacher can say, “OK, clearly that was not what I had in mind when I said, ‘Show your thinking.’”  And instead, the demand or the request was for a student to show their reasoning or their thought process, typically in words or in a combination of words and pictures and equations. And so, there's where I see this idea that math is detached from language is something of a myth; that there's actually a lot of [language in] mathematics. And the interesting part of mathematics is often deeply entwined with language. So, that's my first response and thought about that.  And if you look at our Common Core State Standards for Mathematics, especially those standards for mathematical practice, you see all sorts of connections to communication and to language interspersed throughout those standards. So, “create viable arguments,” that's a language practice. And even “attend to precision,” which most of us tend to think of as, “round appropriately.” But when you actually read the standard itself, it's really about mathematical communication and definitions and using those definitions with precision. So again, that's an example, bringing it right back into the school mathematics domain where language and mathematics are somewhat inseparable from my perspective here. Mike: That's really helpful. So, the second idea that I often hear is, “The best way to support multilingual learners is by focusing on facts or procedures,” and that language comes later, for lack of a better way of saying it. And it seems like this is connected to that first notion, but I wanted to ask the question again: What, if anything, is wrong with this idea that a focus on facts or procedures with language coming after the fact? What impact do you suspect that that would have on the way that we support multilingual learners? Bill: So, that's a great question, too, because there's a grain of truth, right? Both of these questions have simultaneously a grain of truth and simultaneously a fundamental problem in them. So, the grain of truth—and an experience that I've heard from many folks who learned mathematics in a second language—was that they felt more competent in mathematics than they did in say, a literature class, where the only activity was engaging with texts or engaging with words because there was a connection to the numbers and to symbols that were familiar. So, on one level, I think that this idea of focusing on facts or procedures comes out of this observation that sometimes an emergent multilingual student feels most comfortable in that context, in that setting.  But then the second part of the answer goes back to this first idea that really what we're trying to teach students in school mathematics now is not simply, or only, how to apply procedures to really big numbers or to know your times tables fast. I think we have a much more ambitious goal when it comes to teaching and learning mathematics. That includes explaining, justifying, modeling, using mathematics to analyze the world and so on. And so, those practices are deeply tied with language and deeply tied with using communication. And so, if we want to develop those, well, the best way to do that is to develop them, to think about, “What are the scaffolds? What are the supports that we need to integrate into our lessons or into our designs to make that possible?”  And so, that might be the takeaway there, is that if you simply look at mathematics as calculations, then this could be true. But I think our vision of mathematics is much broader than that, and that's where I see this potential. Mike: That's really clarifying. I think the way that you unpack that is if you view mathematics as simply a set of procedures or calculations, maybe? But I would agree with you. What we want for students is actually so much more than that.  One of the things that I heard you say when we were preparing for this interview is that at the elementary level, learning mathematics is a deeply social endeavor. Tell us a little bit about what you mean by that, Bill. Bill: Sure. So, mathematics itself, maybe as a premise, is a social activity. It's created by humans as a way of engaging with the world and a way of reasoning. So, the learning of mathematics is also social in the sense that we're giving students an introduction to this way of engaging in the world. Using numbers and quantities and shapes in order to make sense of our environment.  And when I think about learning mathematics, I think that we are not simply downloading knowledge and sticking it into our heads. And in the modern day where artificial intelligence and computers can do almost every calculation that we can imagine—although your AI may do it incorrectly, just as a fair warning [laughs]—but in the modern day, the actual answer is not what we're so focused on. It's actually the process and the reasoning and the modeling and justification of those choices. And so, when I think about learning mathematics as learning to use these language tools, learning to use these ways of communication, how do we learn to communicate? We learn to communicate by engaging with other people, by engaging with the ideas and the minds and the feelings and so on of the folks around us, whether it's the teacher and the student, the student and the student, the whole class and the teacher. That's where I really see the power. And most of us who have learned, I think can attest to the fact that even when we're engaging with a text, really fundamentally we're engaging with something that was created by somebody else. So, fundamentally, even when you're sitting by yourself doing a math word problem or doing calculations, someone has given that to you and you think that that's important enough to do, right?  So, from that stance, I see all of teaching and learning mathematics is social. And maybe one of our goals in mathematics classrooms, beyond memorizing the times tables, is learning to communicate with other people, learning to be participants in this activity with other folks. Mike: One of the things that strikes me about what you were saying, Bill, is there's this kind of virtuous cycle, right? That by engaging with language and having the social aspect of it, you're actually also deepening the opportunity for students to make sense of the math. You're building the scaffolds that help kids communicate their ideas as opposed to removing or stripping out the language. That's the context in some ways that helps them filter and make sense. You could either be in a vicious cycle, which comes from removing the language, or a virtuous cycle. And it seems a little counterintuitive because I think people perceive language as the thing that is holding kids back as opposed to the thing that might actually help them move forward and make sense. Bill: Yeah. And actually that's one of the really interesting pieces that we've looked at in my research and the broader research is this question of, “What makes mathematics linguistically complex?” is a complicated question. And so sometimes we think of things like looking at the word count as a way to say, “If there are fewer words, it's less complex, and if there are more words, it's more complex.” But that's not totally true. And similarly, “If there's no context, it's easier or more accessible, and if there is a context, then it's less accessible.”  And I don't see these as binary choices. I see these as happening on a somewhat complicated terrain where we want to think about, “How do these words or these contexts add to student understanding or potentially impede [it]?” And that's where I think this social aspect of learning mathematics—as you described, it could be a virtuous cycle so that we can use language in order to engage in the process of learning language. Or, the vicious cycle is, you withhold all language and then get frustrated when students can't apply their mathematics. That’s maybe the most stereotypical answer: “My kids can do this, but as soon as they get a word problem, they can't do it.” And it's like, “Well, did you give them opportunities to learn how to do this? [laughs] Or is this the first time?” Because that would explain a lot. Mike: Well, it's an interesting question, too, because I think what sits behind that in some ways is the idea that you're kind of going to reach a point, or students might reach a point, where they're “ready” for word problems.  Bill: Right. Mike: And I think what we're really saying is it's actually through engaging with word problems that you build your proficiency, your skillset that actually allows you to become a stronger mathematician. Bill: Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly. And it's a daily practice, right? It's not something that you just hold off to the end of the unit, and then you have the word problems, but it's part of the process of learning. And thinking about how you integrate and support that. That's the key question that I really wrestle with. Not trivial, but I think that's the key and the most important part of this. Mike: Well, I think that's actually a really good segue because I wanted to shift and talk about some of the concrete or productive ways that educators can support multilingual learners. And in preparing for this conversation, one of the things that I've heard you stress is this notion of a consistent context. So, can you just talk a little bit more about what you mean by that and how educators can use that when they're looking at their lessons or when they're writing lessons or looking at the curriculum that they're using? Bill: Absolutely. So, in our past work, we engaged in some cycles of design research with teachers looking at their mathematics curriculum and opportunities to engage multilingual learners in communication and reasoning in the classroom. And one of the surprising things that we found—just by looking at a couple of standard textbooks—was a surprising number of contexts were introduced that are all related to the same concept. So, the concept would be something like rate of change or ratio, and then the contexts, there would be a half dozen of them in the same section of the book. Now, this was, I should say, at a secondary level, so not quite where most of the Bridges work is happening. But I think it's an interesting lesson for us that we took away from this. Actually, at the elementary level, Kathryn Chval has made the same observation.  What we realized was that contexts are not good or bad by themselves. In fact, they can be highly supportive of student reasoning or they can get in the way. And it's how they are used and introduced. And so, the other way we thought about this was: When you introduce a context, you want to make sure that that context is one that you give sufficient time for the students to understand and to engage with; that is relatable, that everyone has access to it; not something that's just completely unrelated to students' experiences. And then you can really leverage that relatable, understandable context for multiple problems and iterations and opportunities to go deeper and deeper.  To give a concrete example of that, when we were looking at this ratio and rate of change, we went all the way back to one of the fundamental contexts that's been studied for a long time, which is motion and speed and distance and time. And that seemed like a really important topic because we know that that starts all the way back in elementary school and continues through college-level physics and beyond. So, it was a rich context. It was also something that was accessible in the sense that we could do things like act out story problems or reenact a race that's described in a story problem. And so, the students themselves had access to the context in a deep way.  And then, last, that context was one that we could come back to again and again, so we could do variations [of] that context on that story. And I think there's lots of examples of materials out there that start off with a core context and build it out. I’m thinking of some of the Bridges materials, even on the counting and the multiplication. I think there's stories of the insects and their legs and wings and counting and multiplying. And that's a really nice example of—it's accessible, you can go find insects almost anywhere you are. Kids like it. [Laughs] They enjoy thinking about insects and other icky, creepy-crawly things. And then you can take that and run with it in lots of different ways, right? Counting, multiplication, division ratio, and so on. Mike: This last bit of our conversation has me thinking about what it might look like to plan a lesson for a class or a group of multilingual learners. And I know that it's important that I think about mathematical demands as well as the language demands of a given task. Can you unpack why it's important to set math and language development learning goals for a task, or a set of tasks, and what are the opportunities that come along with that, if I'm thinking about both of those things during my planning? Bill: Yeah, that's a great question. And I want to mark the shift, right? We've gone from thinking about the demands to thinking about the goals, and where we're going to go next.  And so, when I think about integrating mathematical goals—mathematical learning goals and language learning goals—I often go back to these ideas that we call the practices, or these standards that are about how you engage in mathematics. And then I think about linking those back to the content itself. And so, there's kind of a two-piece element to that. And so, when we're setting our goals and lesson planning, at least here in the great state of California, sometimes we'll have these templates that have, “What standard are you addressing?,” [Laughs] “What language standard are you addressing?,” “What ELD standard are you addressing?,” “What SEL standard are you addressing?” And I've seen sometimes teachers approach that as a checkbox, right? Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. But I see that as a missed opportunity—if you just look at this like you're plugging things in—because as we started with talking about how learning mathematics is deeply social and integrated with language, that we can integrate the mathematical goals and the language goals in a lesson. And I think really good materials should be suggesting that to the teacher. You shouldn't be doing this yourself every day from scratch. But I think really high-quality materials will say, “Here's the mathematical goal, and here's an associated language goal,” whether it's productive or receptive functions of language. “And here's how the language goal connects the mathematical goal.”  Now, just to get really concrete, if we're talking about an example of reasoning with ratios—so I was going back to that—then it might be generalized, the relationship between distance and time. And that the ratio of distance and time gives you this quantity called speed, and that different combinations of distance and time can lead to the same speed. And so, explain and justify and show using words, pictures, diagrams. So, that would be a language goal, but it's also very much a mathematical goal.  And I guess I see the mathematical content, the practices, and the language really braided together in these goals. And that I think is the ideal, and at least from our work, has been most powerful and productive for students. Mike: This is off script, but I'm going to ask it, and you can pass if you want to.  Bill: Mm-hmm. Mike: I wonder if you could just share a little bit about what the impact of those [kinds] of practices that you described [have been]—have you seen what that impact looks like? Either for an educator who has made the step and is doing that integration or for students who are in a classroom where an educator is purposely thinking about that level of integration? Bill: Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. In our research, we have tried to measure the effects of some of these efforts. It is a difficult thing to measure because it's not just a simple true-false test question type of thing that you can give a multiple-choice test for.  But one of the ways that we've looked for the impact [of] these types of intentional designs is by looking at patterns of student participation in classroom discussions and seeing who is accessing the floor of the discussion and how. And then looking at other results, like giving an assessment, but deeper than looking at the outcome, the binary correct versus incorrect. Also looking at the quality of the explanation that's provided. So, how [do] you justify an answer? Does the student provide a deeper or a more mathematically complete explanation?  That is an area where I think more investigation is needed, and it's also very hard to vary systematically. So, from a research perspective—you may not want to put this into the final version [laughs]—but from a research perspective, it's very hard to fix and isolate these things because they are integrated. Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Bill: Because language and mathematics are so deeply integrated that trying to fix everything and do this—“What caused this water to taste like water? Was it the hydrogen or the oxygen?”—well, [laughs] you can't really pull those apart, right? The water molecule is hydrogen and oxygen together. Mike: I think that's a lovely analogy for what we were talking about with mathematical goals and language goals. That, I think, is really a helpful way to think about the extent to which they're intertwined with one another. Bill: Yeah, I need to give full credit to Vygotsky, I think, who said that. Mike: You’re— Bill: Something. Might be Vygotsky. I'll need to check my notes. Mike: I think you're in good company if you're quoting Vygotsky.  Before we close, I'd love to just ask you a bit about resources. I say this often on the podcast. We have 20 to 25 minutes to dig deeply into an idea, and I know people who are listening often think about, “Where do I go from here?” Are there any particular resources that you would suggest for someone who wanted to continue learning about what it is to support multilingual learners in a math classroom? Bill: Sure. Happy to share that.  So, I think on the individual and collective level—so, say, a group of teachers—there's a beautiful book by Kathryn Chval and her colleagues [Teaching Math to Multilingual Learners, Grades K–8 [https://www.corwin.com/books/multilingual-success-in-math-272643?srsltid=AfmBOor4yTyy-IbOxAK2bzJBcINQZ3WdOn5V1lRvDMnV3bbcWuHnbKZz]] about supporting multilingual learners and mathematics. And I really see that as a valuable resource. I've used that in reading groups with teachers and used that in book studies, and it's been very productive and powerful for us. Beyond that, of course, I think the NCTM [National Council of Teachers of Mathematics [https://www.nctm.org/]] provides a number of really useful resources. And there are articles, for example, in the [NCTM journal] Mathematics Teacher: Learning and Teaching PK– 12 [https://pubs.nctm.org/view/journals/mtlt/mtlt-overview.xml] that could make for a really wonderful study or opportunity to engage more deeply.  And then I would say on a broader perspective, I've worked with organizations like the English Learners Success Forum [https://www.elsuccessforum.org/] and others. We've done some case studies and little classroom studies that are accessible on my website [SDSU-ELSF Video Cases for Professional Development [https://elsf.sdsu.edu/]], so you can go to that. But there's also from that organization some really valuable insights, if you're looking at adopting new materials or evaluating things, that gives you a principled set of guidelines to follow. And I think that's really helpful for educators because we don't have to do this all on our own. This is not a “reinvent the wheel at every single site” kind of situation. And so, I always encourage people to look for those resources.  And of course, I will say that the MLC materials, [https://store.mathlearningcenter.org/s/] the Bridges in Mathematics [https://www.mathlearningcenter.org/curriculum/bridges-mathematics] [curriculum], I think have been really beautifully designed with a lot of these principles right behind them. So, for example, if you look through the Teachers Guides [https://teach.mathlearningcenter.org/curriculum/brk] on the Bridges in Mathematics [BES login required], those integrated math and language and practice goals are a part of the design. Mike: Well, I think that's a great place to stop. Thank you so much for joining us, Bill. This has been insightful, and it's really been a pleasure talking with you. Bill: Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate it. Mike: And that's a wrap for Season 3 of Rounding Up. I want to thank all of our guests and the MLC staff who make these podcasts possible, as well as all of our listeners for tuning in. Have a great summer, and we'll be back in September for Season 4.  This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Tisha Jones, Assessment as a Shared Journey: Cultivating Partnerships with Families & Caregivers ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 16 Families and caregivers play an essential role in students’ success in school and in shaping their identities as learners. Therefore, establishing strong partnerships with families and caregivers is crucial for equitable teaching and learning. This episode is designed to help educators explore the importance of collaborating with families and caregivers and learn strategies for shifting to asset-based communication. BIOGRAPHY Tisha Jones is the senior manager of assessment at The Math Learning Center. Previously, Tisha taught math to elementary and middle school students as well as undergraduate and graduate math methods courses at Georgia State University. TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: As educators, we know that families and caregivers play an essential role in our students’ success at school. With that in mind, what are some of the ways we can establish strong partnerships with caregivers and communicate about students' progress in asset-based ways? We'll explore these questions with MLC’s [senior] assessment manager, Tisha Jones, on this episode of Rounding Up.  Welcome back to the podcast, Tisha. I think you are our first guest to appear three times. We're really excited to talk to you about assessment and families and caregivers.  Tisha Jones: I am always happy to talk to you, Mike, and I really love getting to share new ideas with people on your podcast.  Mike: So, we've titled this episode “Assessment as a Shared Journey with Families & Caregivers,” and I feel like that title—especially the words “shared journey”—say a lot about how you hope educators approach this part of their practice.  Tisha: Absolutely.  Mike: So, I want to start by being explicit about how we at The Math Learning Center think about the purpose of assessment because I think a lot of the ideas and the practices and the suggestions that you're about to offer flow out of that way that we think about the purpose.  Tisha: When we think about the purpose of assessment at The Math Learning Center, what sums it up best to me is that all assessment is formative, even if it's summative, which is a belief that you'll find in our Assessment Guide. And what that means is that assessment really is to drive learning. It's for the purpose of learning. So, it's not just to capture, “What did they learn?,” but it's, “What do they need?,” “How can we support kids?,” “How can we build on what they're learning?” over and over and over again. And so, there's no point where we're like, “OK, we've assessed it and now the learning of that is in the past.” We're always trying to build on what they're doing, what they've learned so far.  Mike: You know, I've also heard you talk about the importance of an asset-focused approach to assessment. So, for folks who haven't heard us talk about this in the past, what does that mean, Tisha?  Tisha: So that means starting with finding the things that the kids know how to do and what they understand instead of the alternative, which is looking for what they don't know, looking for the deficits in their thinking. We're looking at, “OK, here's the evidence for all the things that they can do,” and then we're looking to think about, “OK, what are their opportunities for growth?” Mike: That sounds subtle, but it is so profound a shift in thinking about what is happening when we're assessing and what we're seeing from students. How do you think that change in perspective shifts the work of assessing, but also the work of teaching?  Tisha: When I think about approaching assessment from an asset-based perspective—finding the things that kids know how to do, the things that kids understand—one, I am now on a mission to find their brilliance. I am just this brilliance detective. I'm always looking for, “What is that thing that this kid can shine at?” That's one, and a different way of thinking about it just to start with.  And then I think the other thing, too, is, I feel like when you find the things that they're doing, I can think about, “OK, what do I need to know? What can I do for them next to support them in that next step of growth?”  Mike: I think that sounds fairly simple, but there's something very different about thinking about building from something versus, say, looking for what's broken.  Tisha: For sure. And it also helps build relationships, right? If you approach any relationship from a deficit perspective, you're always focusing on the things that are wrong. And so, if we're talking about building stronger relationships with kids, coming from an asset-based perspective helps in that area too.  Mike: That's a great pivot point because if we take this notion that the purpose of assessment is to inform the ways that we support student learning, it really seems like that has a major set of implications for how and what and even why we would communicate with families and caregivers.  So, while I suspect there isn't a script for the type of communication, are there some essential components that you'd want to see in an asset-focused assessment conversation that an educator would have with a family or with their child's caregivers?  Tisha: Well, before thinking about a singular conversation, I want to back it up and think about—over the course of the school year. And I think that when we start the communication, it has to start before that first assessment. It has to start before we've seen a piece of kids' work. We have to start building those relationships with families and caregivers. We need to invite them into this process. We need to give them an opportunity to understand what we think about assessment. How are we approaching it? When we send things home, and they haven't heard of things like “proficiency” or “meeting current expectations”—those are common words that you'll see throughout the Bridges assessment materials—if parents haven't seen that, if families and caregivers haven't heard from you on what that means for you in your classroom at your school, then they have questions. It feels unfamiliar. It feels like, “Wait, what does this mean about how my child is doing in your class?”  And so, we want to start this conversation from the very beginning of the school year and continue it on continuously. And it should be this open invitation for them to participate in this process too, for them to share what they're seeing about their student at home, when they're talking about math or they're hearing how their student is talking about math. We want to know those things because that informs how we approach the instruction in class.  Mike: Let's talk about that because it really strikes me that what you’re describing in terms of the meaning of proficiency or the meaning of meeting expectations—that language is likely fairly new to families and caregivers.  And I think the other thing that strikes me is, families and caregivers have their own lived experience with assessment from when they were children, perhaps with other children. And that's generally a mixed bag at best. Folks have this set of ideas about what it means when the teacher contacts them and what assessment means. So, I really hear what you're saying when you're talking about, there's work that educators need to do at the start of the year to set the stage for these conversations.  Let's try to get a little bit specific, though. What are some of the practices that you'd want teachers to consider when they're thinking about their communication?  Tisha: So, I think that starting at the very beginning of the year, most schools do some sort of a curriculum night. I would start by making sure that assessment is a part of that conversation and making sure that you're explaining what assessment means to you. Why are you assessing? What are the different ways that you're assessing? What are some things that [families and caregivers] might see coming home? Are they going to see feedback? Are they going to see scores from assessments? But how were you communicating progress? How do they know how their student is doing? And then also that invitation, right then and there, to be a part of this process, to hear from them, to hear their concerns or their ideas around feedback or the things that they've got questions about.  I would also suggest … really working hard to have that asset-based lens apply to parents and families and caregivers. I know that I have been that parent that was the last one to sign up for the parent teacher conferences, and I'm sending the apologetic email, and I'm begging for a special time slot. So, it didn't mean that I didn't care about my kids. It didn't mean that I didn't care about what they were doing. I was swamped. And so, I think we want to keep finding that asset-based lens for parents and caregivers in the same way that we do for the students.  And then making sure that you're giving them good news, not just bad news. And then making sure when you're sending any communication about how a student is doing, try to be concrete about what you're seeing, right? So, trying to say, “These are the things where I see your child's strengths. These are the strengths that I'm seeing from your student. And these are the areas where we're working on to grow. And this is what we're doing here at school, and this is what you can do to support them at home.” Mike: I was really struck by a piece of what you said, Tisha, when you really made the case for not assuming that the picture that you have in your mind as an educator is clear for families when it comes to assessment. So, really being transparent about how you think about assessment, why you're assessing, and the cadence of when parents or families or caregivers could expect to hear from you and what they could expect as well.  I know for a fact that if my teacher called my family when I was a kid, generally there was a look that came across their face when they answered the phone. And even if it was good news, they didn't think it was good news at the front end of that conversation.  Tisha: I've been there. I had my son's fifth grade teacher call me last year, and I was like, “Oh, what is this?” [laughs] Mike: One of the things that I want to talk about before we finish this conversation is homework. I want to talk a little bit about the purpose of homework. We're having this conversation in the context of Bridges in Mathematics, which is the curriculum that The Math Learning Center publishes. So, while we can't talk about how all folks think about homework, we can talk about the stance that we take when it comes to homework: what its purpose is, how we imagine families and caregivers can engage with their students around it.  Can you talk a little bit about our perspective on homework? How we think about its value, how we think about its purpose? And then we can dig a little bit into what it might look like at home, but let's start with purpose and intent.  Tisha: So, we definitely recognize that there are lots of different ideas about homework, and I think that shows in how we've structured homework through our Bridges units. Most of the time, it's set up so that there's a homework [assignment] that goes with every other session, but it's still optional. So, there's no formal expectation in our curriculum that homework is given on a nightly basis or even on an every-other-night basis. We really have left that up to the schools to determine what is best practice for their population. And I think that is actually what's really the most important thing is, understanding the families and caregivers and the situations that are in your building, and making determinations about homework that makes sense for the students that you're serving. And so, I think we've set homework up in a way that makes it so that it's easy for schools to make those decisions.  Mike: One of the things that I'm thinking about is that—again, I'm going to be autobiographical—when I was a kid, homework went back, it was graded, and it actually counted toward my grade at the end of the semester or the quarter or what have you. And I guess I wonder if a school or a district chose to not go about that, to not have homework necessarily be graded, I wonder if some families and caregivers might wonder, “What's the purpose?” I think we know that there can be a productive and important purpose—even if educators aren't grading homework and adding it to a percentage that is somehow determining students' grades, that it can actually still have purpose. How do you think about the purpose of homework, regardless of whether it's graded or not?  Tisha: So first off, I would just like to advocate not grading homework if I can.  Mike: You certainly can, yeah.  Tisha: [laughs] Mike: Let's talk about that.  Tisha: I think that, one, if we're talking about this idea of putting this score into an average grade or this percentage grade, I think that this is something that has so many different circumstances for kids at home. You have some students who get lots and lots of help. You get some students who do not have help available to them.  Another experience that has been very common when I was teaching was that I would get messages where it was like, “We were doing homework. The kid was in tears, I was in tears. This was just really hard.” And that's just not—I don't ever want that scenario for any student, for any family, for any caregiver, for anybody trying to support a child at home. I used to tell them, “If you are getting to the point where it's that level of frustration, please just stop and send me a message, write it on the homework. Just communicate something that [says,] ‘This was too hard’ because that's information now that I can use.”  And so, for me, I think about [how] homework can be an opportunity for students to practice some skills and concepts and things that they've learned at home. It's an opportunity for parents, families, caregivers to see some of the things that the kids are working on at school.  Mike: What do you think is meaningful for homework? And I have kind of two bits to that. What do you think is meaningful for the child? And then, what do you think might be meaningful for the interaction between the child and their family or caregiver? What's the best case for homework? When you imagine a successful or a productive or a meaningful experience with homework at home between child and family and caregiver, what's that look like?  Tisha: Well, one of the things that I've heard families say is, “I don't know how to help my child with blank.” So, then I think it is, “Well, how do we support families and caregivers in knowing what [to] do with homework when we don't know how to tell them what to do?”  So, to me, it's about, how can we restructure the homework experience so that it's not this, “I have to tell you how to do it so you can get the right answer so you can get the grade.” But it's like, “How can I get at more of your thinking? How can I understand then what is happening or what you do know?” So, “We can't get to the answer. OK. So tell me about what you do know, and how can we build from there? How can we build understanding?” And that way it maybe will take some of the pressure off of families and caregivers to help their child get to the right answer.  Mike: What hits me is we've really come full circle with that last statement you made because you could conceivably have a student who really clearly understands a particular problem that might be a piece of homework, [who] might have some ideas that are on the right track, but ultimately perhaps doesn't get to a fully clear answer that is perfect. And you might have a student who at a certain point in time, maybe [for them] the context or the problem itself is profoundly challenging.  And in all of those cases, the question, “Tell me what you do know” or “Tell me what you're thinking” is still an opportunity to draw out the students’ ideas and to focus on the assets. Even if the work as you described it is to get them to think about, “What are the questions that are really causing me to feel stuck?” That is a productive move for a family and a caregiver and a student to engage in, to kind of wonder about, “What's going on here that's making me feel stuck?” Because then, as you said, all assessment is formative.  Tisha: Mm-hmm. Mike: That homework that comes back is functioning as a formative assessment, and it allows you to think about your next moves, how you build on what the student knows, or even how you build on the questions that the student is bringing to you.  Tisha: And that's such a great point, too, is there's really more value in them coming back with an incomplete assignment or there's, I don't know, maybe “more value” is not the right way to say it. But there is value in kids coming back with an incomplete assignment or an attempted assignment, but they weren't sure how to get through all the problems—as opposed to a parent who has told their student what to do to get to all of the right answers. And so, now they have all these right answers, but it doesn't really give you a clear picture of what that student actually does understand.  So, I'd much rather have a student attempt the homework and stop because they got too stuck, because now I know that, than having a family [member] or a caregiver—somebody working with that student—feel like if they don't have all of the right answers, then it's a problem.  Mike: I think that's really great guidance, both for teachers as they're trying to set expectations and be transparent with families. But also I think it takes that pressure off of families or caregivers who feel like their work when homework shows up, is to get to a right answer. It just feels like a much more healthy relationship with homework and a much more healthy way to think about the value that it has.  Tisha: Well, in truth, it's a healthier relationship with math overall, right? That math is a process. It's not just—the value is not in just this one right answer or this paper of right answers, but it's really in, “How do we deepen our understanding?,” “How do we help students deepen their understanding and have this more positive relationship with math?” And I think that creating these homework struggles between families and caregivers and the children does not support that end goal of having a more positive relationship with math overall.  Mike: Which is a really important part of what we're looking for in a child's elementary experience.  Tisha: Absolutely.  Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Tisha Jones, thank you so much for joining us. We would love to have you back at some time. It has been a pleasure talking with you.  Tisha: It's been great talking to you, too, Mike.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Ryan Flessner, What If I Don’t Understand Their Thinking? ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 15 “What do I do if I don’t understand my student’s strategy?” This is a question teachers grapple with constantly, particularly when conferring with students during class. How educators respond in moments like these can have a profound impact on students’ learning and their mathematical identities. In this episode, we talk with Ryan Flessner from Butler University about what educators can say or do when faced with this situation. BIOGRAPHY Ryan Flessner is a professor of teacher education in the College of Education at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana. He holds a PhD in curriculum and instruction with an emphasis in teacher education from the University of Wisconsin–Madison; a master of arts in curriculum and teaching from Teachers College, Columbia University; and a bachelor of science in elementary education from Butler University. Prior to his time at the university level, he taught grades 3–7 in Indianapolis; New York City; and Madison, Wisconsin. RESOURCES Nearpod [https://nearpod.com/] Pear Deck [https://www.peardeck.com/] GeoGebra [https://www.geogebra.org/]  Magma Math [https://www.magmamath.com/] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: “What do I do if I don't understand my student’s strategy?” This is a question teachers grapple with constantly, particularly when conferring with students during class. How we respond in moments like these can have a profound impact on our students' learning and their mathematical identities. Today we'll talk with Ryan Flessner from Butler University about what educators can say or do when faced with this very common situation.  Welcome to the podcast, Ryan. Really excited to talk to you today. Ryan Flessner: Thanks, Mike. I'm flattered to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. Mike: So, this experience of working with a student and not being able to make sense of their solution feels like something that almost every teacher has had. And I'll speak for myself and say that when it happens to me, I feel a lot of anxiety. And I just want to start by asking, what would you say to educators who are feeling apprehensive or unsure about what to do when they encounter a situation like this? Ryan: Yeah, so I think that everybody has that experience. I think the problem that we have is that teachers often feel the need to have all of the answers and to know everything and to be the expert in the room. But as an educator, I learned really quickly that I didn't have all the answers. And to pretend like I did put a lot of pressure on me and made me feel a lot of stress and would leave me answering children by saying, “Let me get back to you on that.” And then I would scurry and try and find all the answers so I could come back with a knowledgeable idea. And it was just so much more work than to just simply say, “I don't know. Let's investigate that together.” Or to ask kids, “That's something interesting that I'm seeing you do. I've never seen a student do that before. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?” And just having that ability to free myself from having to have all the answers and using that Reggio-inspired practice—for those who know early childhood education—to follow the child, to listen to what he or she or they say to us and try to see. I can usually keep up with a 7- or an 8-year-old as they're explaining math to me. I just may never have seen them notate something the way they did. So, trying to ask that question about, “Show me what you know. Teach me something new.” The idea that a teacher could be a learner at the same time I think is novel to kids, and I think they respond really well to that idea. Mike: So, before we dig in a little bit more deeply about how teachers respond to student strategies if they don't understand, I just want to linger and think about the assumptions that many educators, myself included, might bring to this situation. Assumptions about their role, assumptions about what it would mean for a student if they don't know the answer right away. How do you think about some of the assumptions that are causing some of that anxiety for us? Ryan: Yeah. When the new generation of standards came out, especially in the field of math, teachers were all of a sudden asked to teach in a way that they themselves didn't learn. And so, if you have that idea that you have to have all the answers and you have to know everything, that puts you in a really vulnerable spot because how are we supposed to just magically teach things we've never learned ourselves? And so, trying to figure out ways that we can back up and try and make sense of the work that we're doing with kids, for me that was really helpful in understanding what I wanted from my students. I wanted them to make sense of the learning. So, if I hadn't made sense of it yet, how in the world could I teach them to make sense of it? And so we have to have that humility to say, “I don't know how to do this. I need to continue my learning trajectory and to keep going and trying to do a little bit better than the day that I did before.” I think that teachers are uniquely self-critical and they're always trying to do better, but I don't know if we necessarily are taught how to learn once we become teachers. Like, “We've already learned everything we have to do. Now we just have to learn how to teach it to other people.” But I don't think we have learned everything that we have to learn. There's a lot of stuff in the math world that I don't think we actually learned. We just memorized steps and kind of regurgitated them to get our A+ on a test or whatever we did.  So, I think having the ability to stop and say, “I don't know how to do this, and so I'm going to keep working at it, and when I start to learn it, I'm going to be able to ask myself questions that I should be asking my students.” And just being really thoughtful about, “Why is the child saying the thing that she is?,” “Why is she doing it the way that she's doing it?,” “Why is she writing it the way that she's writing it?” And if I can't figure it out, the expert on that piece of paper is the child [herself], so why wouldn't I go and say, “Talk to me about this.”? I don't have to have all the answers right off the cuff. Mike: In some ways, what you were describing just there is a real nice segue because I've heard you say that our minds and our students' minds often work faster than we can write, or even in some cases faster than we can speak. I'm wondering if you can unpack that. Why do you think this matters, particularly in the situation that we're talking about? Ryan: Yeah, I think a lot of us, especially in math, have been conditioned to get an answer. And nobody's really asked us “Why?” in the past. And so, we've done all of the thinking, we give the answer, and then we think the job is done. But with a lot of the new standards, we have to explain why we think that way. And so, all those ideas that just flurried through our head, we have to now articulate those either in writing on paper or in speech, trying to figure out how we can communicate the mathematics behind the answer.  And so, a lot of times I'll be in a classroom, and I'll ask a student for an answer, and I'll say, “How'd you get that?” And the first inclination that a lot of kids have is, “Oh, I must be wrong if a teacher is asking me why.” So, they think they're wrong. And so I say, “No, no, no. It's not that you're wrong. I'm just curious. You came to that answer, you stopped and you looked up at the ceiling for a while and then you came to me and you said the answer is 68. How did you do that?” A child will say something like, “Well, I just thought about it in my head.” And I say, “Well, what did you think about in your head?” “Well, my brain just told me the answer was 68.”  And we have to actually talk to kids. And we have to teach them how to talk to us—that we're not quizzing them or saying that they're wrong or they didn't do something well enough—that we just want them to communicate with us how they're going about finding these things, what the strategies are. Because if they can communicate with us in writing, if they can communicate on paper, if they can use gestures to explain what they're thinking about, all of those tell us strengths that they bring to the table. And if I can figure out the strengths that you have, then I can leverage those strengths as I address needs that arise in my classroom. And so, I really want to create this bank of information about individual students that will help me be the best teacher that I can be for them. And if I can't ask those questions and they can't answer those questions for me, how am I going to individualize my instruction in meaningful ways for kids? Mike: We've been talking a little bit about the teacher experience in this moment, and we've been talking about some of the things that a person might say.  One of the things that I'm thinking about before we dig in a little bit deeper is, just, what is my role? How do you think about the role of a teacher in the moment when they encounter thinking from a student that they don't quite understand […] yet? Part of what I'm after is, how can a teacher think about what they're trying to accomplish in that moment for themselves as a learner and also for the learner in front of them? How would you answer that question? Ryan: When I think about an interaction with a kid in a moment like that, I try to figure out, as the teacher, my goal is to try and figure out what this child knows so that I can continue their journey in a forward trajectory. Instead of thinking about, “They need to go to page 34 because we're on page 33,” just thinking about, “What does this kid need next from me as the teacher?”  What I want them to get out of the situation is I want them to understand that they are powerful individuals, that they have something to offer the conversation and not just to prove it to the adult in the room. But if I can hear them talk about these ideas, sometimes the kids in the classroom can answer each other's questions. And so, if I can ask these things aloud and other kids are listening in, maybe because we're in close proximity or because we're in a small-group setting, if I can get the kids to verbalize those ideas sometimes one kid talking strikes an idea in another kid. Or another kid will say, “I didn't know how to answer Ryan when he asked me that question before, but now that I hear what it sounds like to answer that type of a question, now I get it, and I know how I would say it if it were my turn.”  So, we have to actually offer kids the opportunity to learn how to engage in those moments and how to share their expertise so others can benefit from their expertise and use that in a way that's helpful in the mathematical process. Mike: One of the most practical—and, I have to say, freeing—things that I've heard you recommend when a teacher encounters student work and they're still trying to make sense of it, is to just go ahead and name it. What are some of the things you imagine that a teacher might say that just straight out name the fact that they're still trying to understand a student's thinking? Tell me a little bit about that. Ryan: Well, I think the first thing is that we just have to normalize the question “Why?” or “Tell me how you know that.” If we normalize those things—a lot of times kids get asked that question when they're wrong, and so it's an [immediate] tip of the hat that “You're wrong, now go back and fix it. There's something wrong with you. You haven't tried hard enough.” Kids get these messages even if we don't intend for them to get them. So, if we can normalize the question “Tell me why you think that” or “Explain that to me”—if we can just get them to see that every time you give me an answer whether it's right or wrong, I'm just going to ask you to talk to me about it, that takes care of half of the problem.  But I think sometimes teachers get stuck because—and myself being one of them—we get stuck because we'll look at what a student is doing and they do something that we don't anticipate. Or we say, “I've shown you three different ways to get at this problem, different strategies you can use, and you're not using any of them.” And so, instead of getting frustrated that they're not listening to us, how do we use that moment to inquire into the things that we said obviously aren't useful, so what is useful to this kid? How is he attacking this on his paper?  So, I often like to say to a kid, “Huh, I noticed that you're doing something that isn't up on our anchor chart. Tell me about this. I haven't seen this before. How can you help me understand what you're doing?” And sometimes it's the exact same thinking as other strategies that kids are using. So, I can pair kids together and say, “Huh, you're both talking about it in the same way, but you're writing it differently on paper.” And so, I think about how I can get kids just to talk to me and tell me what's happening so that I can help give them a notation that might be more acceptable to other mathematicians or to just honor the fact that they have something novel and interesting to share with other kids. Other questions I talk about are, I will say, “I don't understand what's happening here, and that's not your fault, that's my fault. I just need you to keep explaining it to me until you say something that strikes a chord.” Or sometimes I'll bring another kid in, and I'll have the kids listen together, and I'll say, “I think this is interesting, but I don't understand what's going on. Can you say it to her? And then maybe she'll say it in a way that will make more sense to me.” Or I'll say, “Can you show me on your paper—you just said that—can you show me on your paper where that idea is?” Because a lot of times kids will think things in their head, but they don't translate it all onto the paper. And so, on the paper, it's missing a step that isn't obvious to the viewer of the paper. And so, we'll say, “Oh, I see how you do that. Maybe you could label your table so that we know exactly what you're talking about when you do this. Or maybe you could show us how you got to 56 by writing 8 times 7 in the margin or something.”  Just getting them to clarify and try to help us understand all of the amazing things that are in their head. I will often tell them too, “I love what you're saying. I don't see it on your paper, so I just want you to say it again. And I'm going to write it down on a piece of paper that makes sense to me so that I don't forget all of the cool things that you said.” And I'll just write it using more of a standard notation, whether that's a ratio table or a standard US algorithm or something. I'll write it to show the kid that thing that you're doing, there's a way that people write that down. And so, then we can compare our notations and try and figure out “What's the thing that you did?,” “How does that compare to the thing that I did?,” “Do I understand you clearly now?” to make sure that the kid has the right to say the thing she wants to say in the way that she wants to say it, and then I can still make sense of it in my own way. It's not a problem for me to write it differently as long as we're speaking the same language. Mike: I want to mark something really important, and I don't want it to get lost for folks. One of the things that jumped out is the moves that you were describing. You could potentially take up those moves if you really were unsure of how a student were thinking, if you had a general notion but you had some questions, or if you totally already understood what the student was doing. Those are questions that aren't just reserved for the point in time when you don't understand—they're actually good questions regardless of whether you fully understand it or don't understand it at all. Did I get that right? Ryan: Yes. I think that's exactly the point. One thing that I am careful of is, sometimes kids will ask me a question that I know the answer to, and there's this thing that we do as teachers where we're like, “I'm not sure. Why don't you help me figure that out?”—when the kid knows full well that you know the answer.  And so, trying not to patronize kids with those questions, but to really show that I'm asking you these questions, not because I'm patronizing you. I'm asking these questions because I am truly curious about what you're thinking inside and all of the ideas that surround the things that you've written on your paper, or the things that you've said to your partner, to truly honor that the more I know about you, the better teacher I can be for you. Mike: So, in addition to naming the situation, one of the things that jumped out for me—particularly as you were talking about the students—is, what do you think the impact is on a student's thinking? But also their mathematical identity, or even the set of classroom norms, when they experience this type of questioning or these [types] of questions? Ryan: So, I think I talked a little bit about normalizing the [questions] “Why?” or “How do you know that?” And so, just letting that become a classroom norm I think is a sea-changing moment for a lot of classrooms—that the conversation is just different if the kids know they have to justify their thinking whether they're right or wrong. Half the time, if they are incorrect, they'll be able to correct themselves as they're talking it through with you. So, kids can be freed up when they're allowed to use their expertise in ways that allow them to understand that the point of math is to truly make sense of it so that when you go out into the world, you understand the situation, and you have different tools to attack it.  So, what's the way that we can create an environment that allows them to truly see themselves as mathematical thinkers? And to let them know that “Your grades in other classes don't tell me much about you as a mathematician. I want to learn what really works for you, and I want to try and figure out where you struggle. And both of those things are important to me because we can use them in concert with each other. So, if I know the things you do well, I can use those to help me build a plan of instruction that will take you further in your understandings.”  I think that one of the things that is really important is for kids to understand that we don't do math because we want a good grade. I think a lot of people think that the point of math is to get a good grade or to pass a test or to get into the college that you want to get into, or because sixth grade teachers want you to know this. I really want kids to understand that math is a fantastic language to use out in the world, and there are ways that we can interpret things around us if we understand some pretty basic math. And so how do we get them to stop thinking that math is about right answers and next year and to get the job I want? Well, those things may be true, but that's not the real meaning of math. Math is a way that we can live life. And so, if we don't help them understand the connections between the things that they're doing on a worksheet or in a workbook page, if we don't connect those things to the real world, what's the meaning? What's the point for them? And how do we keep them engaged in wanting to know more mathematics?  So, really getting kids to think about who they are as people and how math can help them live the life that they want to live. Creating classroom environments that have routines in place that support kids in thinking in ways that will move them forward in their mathematical understanding. Trying to help them see that there's no such thing as “a math person” or “not a math person.” That everybody has to do math. You do math all the time. You just might not even know that you're doing math. So, I think all of those ideas are really important. And the more curious I can be about students, maybe the more curious they'll be about the math. Mike: You're making me think that this experience of making sense of someone else's reasoning has a lot of value for students. And I'm wondering how you've seen educators have students engage and make sense of their peer strategies. Ryan: Yeah. One of the things that I love to see teachers doing is using students' work as the conversation starter. I often, in my classroom, when I started doing this work, I would bring children up to the overhead projector or the document camera. And they would kind of do a show and tell and just say, “I did this and then I did this, and then I did this thing next.” And I would say, “That's really great, thank you.” And I'd bring up the next student. And it kind of became a show-and-tell-type situation. And I would look at the faces of the other kids in the room, and they would kind of just either be completely checked out or sitting there like raising their hand excitedly—“I want to share mine, I want to share mine.” And what I realized was, that there was really only one person who was engaged in that show-and-tell manner, and that was the person who was sharing their work. And so, I thought, “How can I change that?” So, I saw a lot of really amazing teachers across my career. And the thing that I saw that I appreciated the most is that when a piece of student work is shared, the person who really shouldn't talk is the person who created the work because they already know the work. What we need to do as a group is we need to investigate, “What happened here on this paper?” “Why do you think they made the moves that they made? And how could that help us understand math, our own math, in a different way?” And so, getting kids to look in at other kids' work, and not just saying, “Oh, Mike, how do you understand Ryan's work?” It's “Mike, can you get us started?” And then you say the first thing, and then I say, “OK, let's stop. Let's make sure that we've got this right.” And then we go to the kid whose work it is and say, “Are we on the right track? Are we understanding what you're …?” So, we're always checking with that expert. We're making sure they have the last word, because It's not my strategy. I didn't create it. Just because I'm the teacher doesn't mean you should come and ask me about this because this is Mike's strategy. So go and ask the person who created that.  So, trying to get them to understand that we all need to engage in each other's work. We all need to see the connections. We can learn from each other. And there's an expectation that everyone shares, right? So, it's not just the first kid who raises his hand. It's “All of you are going to get a chance to share.” And I think the really powerful thing is I've done this work even with in-service teachers. And so, when we look at samples of student work, what's fascinating is it just happens naturally because the kid's not in the room. We can't have that kid do a show and tell. We have to interpret their work. And so, trying to look at the kid's work and imagine, “What are the types of things we think this child is doing?,” “What do we think the strengths are on this paper?,” “What questions would you ask?,” “What would you do next?,” is such an interesting thing to do when the child isn't in the room. But when I'm with students, it's just fascinating to watch the kid whose work is on display just shine, even though they're not saying a word, because they just say, “Huh.” They get it. They understand what I did and why I did it.  I think that it's really important for us not just to have kids walk up to the board and do board work and just solve a problem using the steps that they've memorized or just go up and do a show and tell, [but] to really engage everyone in that process so that we're all learning. We're not just kind of checking out or waiting for our turn to talk. Mike: OK, you were talking about the ways that an educator can see how a student was thinking or the ways that an educator could place student work in front of other students and have them try to make sense of it. I wonder if there are any educational technology tools that you've seen that might help an educator who's trying to either understand their students' thinking or put it out for their students to understand one another's thinking. Ryan: Yeah, there's so many different pieces of technology and things out there. It's kind of overwhelming to try and figure out which one is which. So, I mean, I've seen people use things like Nearpod [https://nearpod.com/] or Pear Deck [https://www.peardeck.com/]—some of those kind of common technologies that you'll see when people do an educational technology class or a workshop at a conference or something. I've seen a lot of people lately using GeoGebra [https://www.geogebra.org/] to create applets that they can use with their kids. One that I've started using a lot recently is Magma Math [https://www.magmamath.com/]. Magma Math is great. I've used this with teachers and professional development situations to look at samples of student work because the thing that Magma has that I haven't seen in a lot of other technologies is there's a playback function. So, I can look at a static piece of finished work, but I can also rewind, and as the child works in this program, it records it. So, I can watch in real time what the child does. And so, if I can't understand the work because things are kind of sporadically all over the page, I can just rewatch the order that the child put something onto the page. And I think that's a really great feature.  There's just all these technologies that offer us opportunities to do things that I couldn't do at the beginning of my career or I didn't know how to do. And the technology facilitates that. And it's not just putting kids on an iPad so they can shoot lasers at the alien that's invading by saying, “8 times 5 is 40,” and the alien magically blows up. How does that teach us anything? But some of these technologies really allow us to dig deeply into a sample of work that students have finished or inquire into, “How did that happen and why did that happen?” And the technologies are just getting smarter and smarter, and they're listening to teachers saying, “It would be really helpful if we could do this or if we could do that.” And so, I think there are a lot of resources out there—sometimes too many, almost an embarrassment of riches. So, trying to figure out which ones are the ones that are actually worth our time, and how do we fund that in a school district or in a school so that teachers aren't paying for these pieces out of their pocket. Mike: You know what? I think that's a great place to stop. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. It has been an absolute pleasure talking with you. Ryan: It's always great to talk to you, Mike. Thanks for all you do. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Dr. Cathery Yeh, Supporting Neurodiverse Students in Elementary Mathematics Classrooms ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 14 What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might it impact a student’s learning experience?  And how can educators think about the work of designing environments and experiences that support neurodiverse students learning mathematics?  In this episode, we discuss these questions with Dr. Cathery Yeh, a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.  BIOGRAPHY Dr. Cathery Yeh is an assistant professor in STEM education and a core faculty member in the Center for Asian American Studies from the University of Texas at Austin. Her research examines the intersections of race, language, and disability to provide a nuanced analysis of the constructions of ability in mathematics classrooms and education systems. TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might that language impact a student's learning experience? In this episode, we'll explore those questions. And we'll think about ways that educators can design learning environments that support all of their students. Joining us for this conversation is Dr. Cathery Yeh, a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.  Welcome to the podcast, Cathery. It's really exciting to have you with us today. Cathery Yeh: Thank you, Mike. Honored to be invited. Mike: So, I wonder if we can start by offering listeners a common understanding of language that we'll use from time to time throughout the episode. How do you think about the meaning of neurodiversity? Cathery: Thank you for this thoughtful question. Language matters a lot. For me, neurodiversity refers to the natural variation in our human brains and our neurocognition, challenging this idea that there's a normal brain. I always think of… In Texas, we just had a snow day two days ago. And I think of, just as, there's no two snowflakes that are the same, there's no two brains that are exactly the same, too. I also think of its meaning from a personal perspective. I am not a special educator. I was a bilingual teacher and taught in inclusive settings. And my first exposure to the meaning of neurodiversity came from my own child, who—she openly blogs about it—as a Chinese-American girl, it was actually really hard for her to be diagnosed. Asian Americans, 1 out of 10 are diagnosed—that's the lowest of any ethnic racial group. And I'll often think about when… She's proud of her disabled identity. It is who she is. But what she noticed that when she tells people about her disabled identity, what do you think is the first thing people say when she says, “I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD. I have autism.” What do you think folks usually say to her? The most common response? Mike: I'm going to guess that they express some level of surprise, and it might be associated with her ethnic background or racial identity. Cathery: She doesn't get that as much. The first thing people say is, they apologize to her. They say, “I'm sorry.” Mike: Wow. Cathery: And that happens quite a lot. And I say that because–and then I connected back to the term neurodiversity—because I think it's important to know its origins. It came about by Judy Singer. She's a sociologist. And about 30 years ago, she coined the term neurodiversity as an opposition to the medical model of understanding people and human difference as deficits. And her understanding is that difference is beautiful. All of us think and learn and process differently, and that's part of human diversity. So that original definition of neurodiversity was tied to the autism rights movement. But now, when we think about the term, it's expanded to include folks with ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, mental health, conditions like depression, anxiety, and other neuro minorities like Tourette syndrome, and even memory loss. I wanted to name out all these things because sometimes we're looking for a really clean definition, and definitions are messy. There's a personal one. There's a societal one of how we position neurodiversity as something that's deficit, that needs to be fixed. But it's part of who one is. But it's also socially constructed. Because how do you decide when a difference becomes a difference that counts where you qualify as being neurodiverse, right? So, I think there's a lot to consider around that. Mike: You know, the answer that you shared is really a good segue because the question I was going to ask you involves something that I suspect you hear quite often is people asking you, “What are the best ways that I can support my neurodiverse students?” And it occurs to me that part of the challenge of that question is it assumes that there's this narrow range of things that you do for this narrow range of students who are different. The way that you just talked about the meaning of neurodiversity probably means that you have a different kind of answer to that question when people ask it. Cathery: I do get this question quite a lot. People email it to me, or they'll ask me. That's usually the first thing people ask. I think my response kind of matches my pink hair question. When they ask me the question, I often ask a question back. And I go, “How would you best educate Chinese children in math?” And they're like, “Why would you ask that?” The underlining assumption is that all Chinese children are the same, and they learn the same ways, they have the same needs, and also that their needs are different than the research-based equity math practices we know and have done 50–60 years of research that we've highlighted our effective teaching practices for all children. We've been part of NCTM for 20 years. We know that tasks that promote reasoning and problem solving have been effectively shown to be good for all. Using a connecting math representation—across math representations in a lesson—is good for all. Multimodal math discourse, not just verbal, written, but embodied in part who we are and, in building on student thinking, and all those things we know. And those are often the recommendations we should ask. But I think an important question is how often are our questions connecting to that instead? How often are we seeing that we assume that certain students cannot engage in these practices? And I think that's something we should prioritize more. I'm not saying that there are not specific struggles or difficulties that the neurodiversity umbrella includes, which includes ADHD, dyslexia, autism, bipolar disorder, on and on, so many things. I'm not saying that they don't experience difficulties in our school environment, but it's also understanding that if you know one neurodiverse student—you know me or my child—you only know one. That's all you know. And by assuming we're all the same, it ignores the other social identities and lived experiences that students have that impact their learning.  So, I'm going to ask you a question. Mike: Fire away. Cathery: OK. What comes to your mind when you hear the term “neurodiverse student”? What does that student look like, sound like, appear like to you? Mike: I think that's a really great question. There's a version of me not long ago that would have thought of that student as someone who's been categorized as special education, receiving special education services, perhaps a student that has ADHD. I might've used language like “students who have sensory needs or processing.” And I think as I hear myself say some of those things that I would've previously said, what jumps out is two things: One is I'm painting with a really broad brush as opposed to looking at the individual student and the things that they need. And two is the extent to which painting with a broad brush or trying to find a bucket of strategies that's for a particular group of students, that that really limits my thinking around what they can do or all the brilliance that they may have inside them. Cathery: Thank you for sharing that because that's a reflection I often do. I think about when I learned about my child, I learned about myself. How I automatically went to a deficit lens of like, “Oh, no, how are we going to function in the world? How's she going to function in the world?” But I also do this prompt quite a lot with teachers and others, and I ask them to draw it. When you draw someone, what do you see? And I'll be honest, kind of like drawing a scientist, we often draw Albert Einstein. When I ask folks to draw what a neurodiverse student looks like, they're predominantly white boys, to be honest with you. And I want to name that out. It’s because students of color, especially black, brown, native students—they're disproportionately over- and under-identified as disabled in our schooling. Like we think about this idea that when most of us associate autism or ADHD mainly as part of the neurodiversity branch and as entirely within as white boys, which often happens with many of the teachers that I talk to and parents. We see them as needing services, but in contrast, when we think about, particularly our students of color and our boys—these young men—there's often a contrast of criminalization in being deprived of services for them. And this is not even what I'm saying. It's been 50 years of documented research from the Department of Ed from annual civil rights that repeatedly shows for 50 years now extreme disproportionality for disabled black and Latinx boys, in particular from suspension, expulsion, and in-school arrests. I think one of the most surprising statistics for me that I had learned recently was African-American youth are five times more likely to be misdiagnosed with conduct disorder before receiving the proper diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And I appreciate going back to that term of neurodiversity because I think it's really important for us to realize that neurodiversity is an asset-based perspective that makes us shift from looking at it as the student that needs to be fixed, that neurodiversity is the norm, but for us to look at the environment. And I really believe that we cannot have conversations about disability without fully having conversations about race, language, and the need to question what needs to be fixed, particularly not just our teaching, but our assessment practices. For example, we talk about neurodiversities around what we consider normal or abnormal, which is based on how we make expectations around what society thinks. One of the things that showed up in our own household—when we think about neurodiversity or assessments for autism—is this idea of maintaining eye contact. That's one of the widely considered autistic traits. In the Chinese and in the Asian household, and also in African communities, making eye contact to an adult or somebody with authority? It is considered rude. But we consider that as one of the characteristics when we engage in diagnostic tools. This is where I think there needs to be more deep reflection around how one is diagnosed, how a conversation of disability is not separate from our understanding of students and their language practices, their cultural practices. What do we consider normative? Because normative is highly situated in culture and context. Mike: I would love to stay on this theme because one of the things that stands out in that last portion of our conversation was this notion that rather than thinking about, “We need to change the child.” Part of what we really want to think about is, “What is the work that we might do to change the learning environment?” And I wonder if you could talk a bit about how educators go about that and what, maybe, some of the tools could be in their toolbox if they were trying to think in that way. Cathery: I love that question of, “What can we as teachers do? What's some actionable things?” I really appreciate Universal Design for Learning framework, particularly their revised updated version, or 3.0 version, that just came out, I think it was June or July of this year. Let me give you a little bit of background about universal design. And I'm sure you probably already know. I've been reading a lot around its origins. It came about [in the] 1980s, we know from cast.org. But I want to go further back, and it really builds from universal design and the work of architecture. So universal design was coined by a disabled architect. His name was Ronald Mace. And as I was reading his words, it really helped me better understand what UDL is. We know that UDL— Universal Design for Learning and universal design—is about access. Everybody should have access to curriculum. And that sounds great, but I've also seen classrooms where access to curriculum meant doing a different worksheet while everybody else is engaging in small group, whole group problem-based learning.  Access might mean your desk is in the front of the room where you're self-isolated—where you're really close to the front of the board so you can see it really well—but you can't talk to your peers. Or that access might mean you're in a whole different classroom, doing the same set of worksheets or problems, but you're not with your grade-level peers.  And when Ronald Mace talks about access, he explained that access in architecture had already been a focus in the late 1900s, around 1998, I think. But he said that universal design is really about the longing. And I think that really shifted the framing. And his argument was that we need to design a place, an environment where folks across a range of bodies and minds feel a sense of belonging there. That we don't need to adapt—the space was already designed for you. And that has been such a transformative perspective: That it shouldn't be going a different route or doing something different, because by doing that, you don't feel like you belong. But if the space is one where you can take part equally and access across the ways you may engage, then you feel a sense of belonging. Mike: The piece of what you said that I'm really contemplating right now is this notion of belonging. What occurs to me is that approaching design principles for a learning environment or a learning experience with belonging in mind is a really profound shift. Like asking the question, “What would it mean to feel a sense of belonging in this classroom or during this activity that's happening?” That really changes the kinds of things that an educator might consider going through a planning process. I'm wondering if you think you might be able to share an example or two of how you've seen educators apply universal design principles in their classrooms in ways that remove barriers in the environment and support students' mathematical learning. Cathery: Oh gosh, I feel so blessed. I spend… Tomorrow I'm going to be at a school site all day doing this. UDL is about being responsive to our students and knowing that the best teaching requires us to listen deeply to who they are, honor their mathematical brilliance, and their agency. It's about honoring who they are. I think where UDL ups it to another level, is it asks us to consider who makes the decision. If we are making all the decisions of what is best for that student, that's not fully aligned with UDL. The heart of UDL, it's around multiple ways for me to engage, to represent and express, and then students are given choice. So, one of the things that's an important part of UDL is honoring students' agency, so we do something called “access needs.” At the start of a lesson, we might go, “What do you need to be able to fully participate in math today?” And kids from kindergarten to high school or even my college students will just write out what they need. And usually, it's pretty stereotypical: “I want to talk to someone when I'm learning.” “I would like to see it and not just hear it.” And then you continually go back and you ask, “What are your access needs? What do you need to fully participate?”  So students are reflecting on their own what they need to be fully present and what they believe is helpful to create a successful learning environment. So that's a very strong UDL principle—that instead of us coming up with a set of norms for our students, we co-develop that. But we're co-developing it based on students reflecting on their experience in their environment. In kindergarten, we have children draw pictures. As they get older, they can draw, they can write. But it's this idea that it's an ongoing process for me to name out what I need to be fully present. And oftentimes, they're going to say things that are pretty critical. It's almost always critical, to be honest with you, but that’s a… I would say that's a core component of UDL. We're allowing students to reflect on what they need so they can name it for themselves, and then we can then design that space together. And along the way, we have kids that name, “You know what? I need the manipulatives to be closer.” That would not come about at the start of me asking about access needs. But if we did a lesson, and it was not close by, they’ll tell me. So it's really around designing an environment where they can fully participate and be their full selves and feel a sense of belonging. So, that's one example.  Another one that we've been doing is teachers and kids who have traditionally not participated the most in our classrooms or have even engaged in pullout intervention. And we'll have them walk around school, telling us about their day. “Will you walk me through your day and tell me how you feel in each of these spaces, and what are your experiences like?” And again, we're allowing the students to name out what they need. And then they're naming out… Oftentimes, with the students that we're at, where I'm working in mostly multilingual spaces, they'll say, “Oh, I love this teacher because she allows us to speak in Spanish in the room. It’s OK.” So that's going back to ideas of action, expression, engagement, where students are allowed a trans language. That's one of the language principles.  But we're allowing students and providing spaces and really paying close attention to: “How do we decide how to maximize participation for our students with these set of UDL guidelines? How we are able to listen and make certain decisions on how we can strengthen their participation, their sense of belonging in our classrooms.” Mike: I think what's lovely about both of those examples—asking them to write or draw what they need or the description of, “Let's walk through the day. Let's walk through the different spaces that you learn in or the humans that you learn with”—is one, it really is listening to them and trying to make meaning of that and using that as your starting point. I think the other piece is that it makes me think that it's something that happens over time. It might shift, you might gain more clarity around the things that students need or they might gain more clarity around the things that they need over time. And those might shift a little bit, or it might come into greater focus. Like, “I thought I needed this” or “I think I needed this, but what I really meant was this.” There's this opportunity for kids to refine their needs and for educators to think about that in the designs that they create. Cathery: I really appreciate you naming that because it's all of that. It's an ongoing process where we're building a relationship with our students for us to co-design what effective teaching looks like—that it's not a one size fits all. It's disrupting this idea that what works for one works for all. It's around supporting our students to name out what they need. Now, I'm almost 50. I struggle to name out what I need sometimes, so it's not going to happen in, like, one time. It's an ongoing process. And what we need is linked to context, so it has to be ongoing. But there's also in the moments as well. And it's the heart of good teaching in math, when you allow students to solve problems in the ways that make sense to them, that's UDL by design. That's honoring the ideas of multiplicity in action, expression. When you might give a context-based problem and you take the numbers away and you give a set of number choices that students get to choose from. That is also this idea of UDL because there's multiple ways for them to engage. So there are also little things that we do that… note how they're just effective teaching. But we're honoring this idea that children should have agency. All children can engage in doing mathematics. And part of learning mathematics is also supporting our students to see the brilliance in themselves and to leverage that in their own teaching and learning. Mike: Yeah. Something else that really occurred to me as we've been talking is the difference between the way we've been talking about centering students’ needs and asking them to help us understand them and the process that that kind of kicks off. I think what strikes me is that it's actually opening up the possibilities of what might happen or the ways that a student could be successful as opposed to this notion that “You're neurodiverse, you fit in this bucket. There's a set of strategies that I’m going to do just for you,” and those strategies might actually limit or constrict the options you have. For example, in terms of mathematics, what I remember happening very often when I was teaching is, I would create an open space for students to think about ways that they could solve problems. And at the time, often what would happen is kids who were characterized as neurodiverse wouldn't get access to those same strategies. It would be kind of the idea that “This is the way we should show them how to do it.” It just strikes me how different that experience is. I suspect that that was done with the best of intentions, but I think the impact unfortunately probably really didn't match the intent. Cathery: I love how you're being honest. I did the same thing when I was teaching, too, because we were often instructed to engage in whole-group instruction and probably do a small-group pullout. That was how I was taught. And when the same kids are repeatedly pulled out because we're saying that they're not able to engage in the instruction. I think that part of UDL is UDL is a process, realizing that if students are not engaging fully in the ways that we had hoped, instead of trying to fix the child, we look at the environment and think about what changes we need to make in tier one. So whole-group instruction, whole-group participation first to see how we can maximize their participation. And it's not one strategy, because it depends; it really depends. I think of, for example, with a group of teachers in California and Texas now, we've been looking at how we can track participation in whole-group settings. And we look at them across social demographics, and then we started to notice that when we promote multimodal whole-group participation, like kids have access to manipulatives even during whole-group share out. Or they have visuals that they can point to, their participation and who gets to participate drastically increase. So there's many ways in which, by nature, we engage in some narrow practices because, too, oftentimes whole group discussion is almost completely verbal and, at times, written, and usually the teacher's writing. So it's going back to the idea of, “Can we look at what we want our students to do at that moment? So starting on the math concept and practices, but then looking at our students and when they're not participating fully, it's not them. What are the UDL principles and things that I know and strategies that I have with my colleagues that I can make some small shifts?” Mike: You know, one of the things that I enjoy most about the podcast is that we really can take a deep dive into some big ideas, and the limitation is we have 20 minutes to perhaps a half hour. And I suspect there are a lot of people who are trying to make meaning of what we're talking about and thinking about, “How might I follow up? How might I take action on some of the ideas?” So I want to turn just for a little while to resources, and I'm wondering if there are resources that you would suggest for a listener who wants to continue learning about universal design in a mathematics classroom? Cathery: Oh, my goodness, that's such a hard question because there’s so many. Some good ones overall: I would definitely encourage folks to dive into the UDL guidelines—the 3.0 updates. They're amazing. They're so joyful and transformative that they even have, one of the principles is centering joy in play, and for us to imagine that, right? Mike: Yes! Cathery: What does that mean to do that in a math classroom? We can name out 50 different ways. So how often do we get to see that? So, I would highly encourage folks to download that, engage in deep discussion because it was a 2.2 version for, I think, quite a few years. I would also lean into a resource that I'm glad to email later on so it's more easily accessible. I talked about access needs, this idea of asking students, asking community members, asking folks to give this opportunity to name out what they need. It's written by a colleague, Dr. Daniel Reinholz and Dr. Samantha Ridgway. It's a lovely reading, and it focuses specifically in STEM but I think it's a great place to read. I would say that Dr. Rachel Lambert's new book on UDL math is an excellent read. It's a great joyful read to think about. I'm going to give one shout out to the book called the Year of the Tiger: An Activist’s Life. It's by Alice Wong. I encourage that because how often do we put the word activism next to disability? And Alice Wong is one of the most amazing humans in the world, and it's a graphic novel. So it's just joyful. It's words with poetry and graphic novel mixed together to see the life of what it means to be a disabled activist and how activism and disability goes hand in hand. Because when you are disabled and multi-marginalized, you are often advocating for yourself and others. It's amazing. So I'll stop there. There's endless amounts. Mike: So for listeners, we'll link the resources that Cathery was talking about in our show notes. I could keep going, but I think this is probably a great place to stop. I want to thank you so much for joining us. It's really been a pleasure talking with you. Cathery: Thank you. Thank you. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org [http://www.mathlearningcenter.org/]

Assessment in the Early Years Guest: Shelly Scheafer ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 13 Mike (00:09.127) Welcome to the podcast Shelley. Thank you so much for joining us today. Shelly (00:12.956) Thank you, Mike, for having me. Mike (00:16.078) So I'd like to start with this question. What makes the work of assessing younger children, particularly students in grades K through two, different from assessing students in upper elementary grades or even beyond? Shelly (00:30.3) There's a lot to that question, Mike. I think there's some obvious things. So effective assessment of our youngest learners is different because obviously our pre-K, first, even our second grade students are developmentally different from fourth and fifth graders. So when we think about assessing these early primary students, we need to use appropriate assessment methods that match their stage of development. For example, when we think of typical paper pencil assessments and how we often ask students to show their thinking with pictures, numbers and words, our youngest learners are just starting to connect symbolic representations to mathematical ideas, let alone, you know, put letters together to make words. So When we think of these assessments, we need to take into consideration that primary students are in the early stages of development with respect to their language, their reading, and their writing skills. And this in itself makes it challenging for them to fully articulate, write, sketch any of their mathematical thinking. So we often find that with young children in reviews, you know, individual interviews can be really helpful. But even then, there's some drawbacks. Some children find it challenging, you know, to be put on the spot, to show in the moment, you know, on demand, you know, what they know. Others, you know, just aren't fully engaged or interested because you've called them over from something that they're busy doing. Or maybe, you know, they're not yet comfortable with the setting or even the person doing the interview. So when we work with young children, we need to recognize all of these little peculiarities that come with working with that age. We also need to understand that their mathematical development is fluid, it's continually evolving. And this is why Shelly (02:47.42) they often or some may respond differently to the same proper question, especially if the setting or the context is changed. We may find that a kindergarten student who counts to 29 on Monday may count to 69 or even 100 later in the week, kind of depending on what's going on in their mind at the time. So this means that assessment with young children needs to be frequent. informative and ongoing. So we're not necessarily waiting for the end of the unit to see, aha, did they get this? You know, what do we do? You know, we're looking at their work all of the time. And fortunately, some of the best assessments on young children are the observations in their natural setting, like times when maybe they're playing a math game or working with a center activity or even during just your classroom routines. And it's these authentic situations that we can look at as assessments to help us capture a more accurate picture of their abilities because we not only get to hear what they say or see what they write on paper, we get to watch them in action. We get to see what they do when they're engaged in small group activities or playing games with friends. Mike (04:11.832) So I wanna go back to something you said and even in particular the way that you said it. You were talking about watching or noticing what students can do and you really emphasize the words do. Talk a little bit about what you were trying to convey with that, Shelley. Shelly (04:27.548) So young children are doers. When they work on a math task, they show their thinking and their actions with finger formations and objects. And we can see if a student has one-to-one correspondence when they're counting, if they group their objects, how they line them up, do they tag them, do they move them as they count them. They may not always have the verbal skills to articulate their thinking, but we can also attend to things like head nodding, finger counting, and even how they cluster or match objects. So I'm going to give you an example. So let's say that I'm watching some early first graders, and they're solving the expression 6 plus 7. And the first student picks up a number rack or a rec and rec. And if you're not familiar with a number rack, it's a tool with two rows of beads. And on the first row, there are five red beads and five white beads. And on the second row, there's five red beads and five white beads. And the student solving six plus seven begins by pushing over five red beads in one push and then one more bead on the top row. And then they do the same thing for the seven. They push over five red beads and two white beads. And they haven't said a word to me. I'm just watching their actions. And I'm already able to tell, hmm, that student could subitize a group of five, because I saw him push over all five beads in one push. And that they know that six is composed of five and one, and seven is composed of five and two. And they haven't said a word. I'm just watching what they're doing. And then I might watch the student, and they see it. I see him pause, know, nothing's being said, but I start to notice this slight little head nodding. Shelly (06:26.748) And then they say 13 and they give me the answer and they're really pleased. I didn't get a lot of language from them, but boy, did I get a lot from watching how they solve that problem. And I want to contrast that observation with a student who might be solving the same expression six plus seven and they might go six and then they start popping up one finger at a time while counting seven, eight. 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. And when they get seven fingers held up, they say 13 again. They've approached that problem quite differently. But again, I get that information that they understood the equation. They were able to count on starting with six. And they kept track of their count with their fingers. And they knew to stop when seven fingers were raised. And I might even have a different student that solves the problem by thinking, hmm, and they talk to themselves or they know I'm watching and they might start talking to me. And they say, well, 6 plus 6 is 12 and 7 is 1 more than 6. So the answer is 16 or 13. And if this were being done on a paper pencil as an assessment item or they were answering on some kind of a device, all I would know about my students is that they were able to get the correct answer. I wouldn't really know a lot about how they got the answer. What skills do they have? What was their thinking? And there's not a lot that I can work with to plan my instruction. Does that kind of make sense? Mike (08:20.84) Absolutely. I think the, the way that you described this really attending to behaviors, to gestures, to the way that kids are interacting with manipulatives, the self-talk that's happening. It makes a ton of sense. And I think for me, when I think back to my own practice, I wish I could wind the clock back because I think I was attending a lot to what kids were saying. and sometimes they're written communication, and there was a lot that I could have also taken in if I was attending to those things in a little bit more depth. It also strikes me that this might feel a little bit overwhelming for an educator. How do you think about what an educator, let me back that up. How can an educator know what they're looking for? Shelly (09:17.5) to start, Mike, by honoring your feelings, because I do think it can feel overwhelming at first. But as teachers begin to make informal observations, really listening to you and watching students' actions as part of just their daily practice, something that they're doing, you know, just on a normal basis, they start to develop these kind of intuitive understandings of how children learn, what to expect them to do, what they might say next if they see a certain actions. And after several years, let's say teaching kindergarten, if you've been a kindergarten teacher for four, five, six, 20, you know, plus years, you start to notice these patterns of behavior, things that five and six year olds seem to say and think and do on a fairly consistent basis. And that kind of helps you know, you know, what you're looking at. But before you say anything, I know that isn't especially helpful for teachers new to the profession or new to a grade level. And fortunately, we have several researchers that have been, let's say, kid watching for 40, I don't know, 50 years, and they have identified stages through which most children pass as they develop their counting skills or maybe strategies for solving addition and subtraction problems. And these stages are laid out as progressions of thinking or actions that students exhibit as they develop understanding over periods of time. listeners might, you know, know these as learning progressions or learning trajectories. And these are ways to convey an idea of concept in little bits of understanding. So. When I was sharing the thinking and actions of three students solving six plus seven, listeners familiar with cognitively guided instruction, CGI, they might have recognized the sequence of strategies that children go through when they're solving addition and subtraction problems. So in my first student, they didn't say anything but gave me an answer. Shelly (11:40.068) was using direct modeling. We saw them push over five and one beads for six and then five and two beads for seven and then kind of pause at their model. And I could tell, you know, with their head nodding that they were counting quietly in their head, counting all the beads to get the answer. And, you know, that's kind of one of those first stages that we see and recognize with direct modeling. And that gives me information on what I might do with a student. coming next time, I might work on the second strategy that I conveyed with my second student where they were able to count on. They started with that six and then they counted seven more using their fingers to keep track of their count and got the answer. And then that third kind of level in that progression as we're moving of understanding. was shown with my third student when they were able to use a derived fact strategy. The student said, well, I know that 6 plus 6 is 12. I knew my double fact. And then I used that relationship of knowing that 7 is 1 more than 6. And so that's kind of how we move kids through. And so when I'm watching them, I can kind of pinpoint where they are and where they might go next. And I can also think about what I might do. And so it's this knowledge of development and progressions and how children learn number concepts that can help teachers recognize the skills as they emerge, as they begin to see them with their students. And they can use those, you know, to guide their instruction for that student or, you know, look at the class overall and plan their instruction or think about more open-ended kinds of questions that they can ask that recognize these different levels that students are working with. Mike (13:39.17) You know, as a K-1 teacher, I remember that I spent a lot of my time tracking students with things like checklists. You know, so I'd note if students quote unquote had or didn't have a skill. And I think as I hear you talk, that feels fairly oversimplified when we think about this idea of developmental progressions. How do you suggest that teachers approach capturing evidence of student learning, Shelly (14:09.604) well, I think it's important to know that if, you know, it takes us belief. We have to really think about assessment and children's learning is something that is ongoing and evolving. And if we do, it just kind of becomes part of what we can do every day. We can look for opportunities to observe students skills in authentic settings. Many in the moment. types of assessment opportunities happen when we pose a question to the class and then we kind of scan looking for a response. Maybe it's something that we're having them write down on their whiteboard or maybe it's something where they're showing the answer with finger formations or we're giving a thumbs up or a thumbs down, know, kind of to check in on their understanding. We might not be checking on every student, but we're capturing the one, you know, a few. And we can take note because we're doing this on a daily basis of who we want to check in with. What do we want to see? We can also do a little more formal planning when we draw from what we're going to do already in our lesson. Let's say, for example, that our lesson today includes a dot talk or a number talk, something that we're going to write down. We're going to record student thinking. And so during the lesson, the teacher is going to be busy facilitating the discussion, recording the students thinking, you know, and making all of those notes. But if we write the child's name, kind of honor their thinking and give it that caption on that public record, at the end of the lesson, you know, we can capture a picture, just, you use our phone, use an iPad, quickly take a picture of that student's thinking, and then we can record that. you know, where we're keeping track of our students. So we have, OK, another moment in time. And it's this collection of evidence that we keep kind of growing. We can also, you by capturing these public records, note whose voice and thinking were elevating in the classroom. So it kind of gives us how are they thinking and who are we listening to and making sure that we're kind of spreading that out and hearing everyone. Shelly (16:31.728) I think, Mikey, you checklists that you used. Yeah, and even checklists can play a role in observation and assessments when they have a focus and a way to capture students' thinking. So one of the things we did in Bridges 3rd edition is we designed additional tools for gathering and recording information during workplaces. Mike (16:35.501) I did. Shelly (16:56.208) That's a routine where students are playing games and or engaged with partners doing some sort of a math activity. And we designed these based on what we might see students do at these different games and activities. And we didn't necessarily think about this is something you're going to do with every student. You know, or even, you know, in one day because these are spanned out over a period of four to six weeks where they can go to these games. And we might even see the students go to these activities multiple times. And so let's say that kindergarten students are playing something like the game Beat You to 10, where they're spinning a spinner, they're counting cubes, and they're trying to race their partner to collect 10 cubes. And with an activity like that, I might just want to focus on students who I still want to see, do they have one-to-one correspondence? Are they developing cardinality? Are they able to count out a set? And so those might, you know, of objects, you know, based on the number, they spin a four, can they count out four? And those might be kinds of skills that you might have had typically on a checklist, right, Mike, for kindergarten? But I could use this activity to kind of gap. gather that note and make any comments. So just for those kids I'm looking at or maybe first graders are playing a game like sort the sum where they're drawing two different dominoes and they're supposed to find how many they have in all. And so with a game like that, I might focus on what are their strategies? Are they counting all the dots? Are they counting on from the dot? And if one set of the dots on one side and then counting on the other. Are they starting with the greater number or the most dots? Are they starting with the one always on the left? Or I might even see they might instantly recognize some of those. So I might know the skills that I want to look for with those games and be making notes, which kind of feels checklist-like. But I can target that time to do it on students I want that information by thinking ahead of time. Shelly (19:18.684) What can I get by watching, observing these students at these games? trust, I mean, as you know, young children love it. Older children love it. When the teacher goes over and wants to watch them play, or even better, wants to engage in the game play with them, but I can still use that as an assessment. Mike (19:39.32) think that's really helpful, Shelly, for a couple reasons. First, I think it helps me rethink, like you said, one, getting really a lot clearer on like, love the, I'm gonna back that up. I think one of the things that you said was really powerful is thinking about not just the assessment tools that might be within your curriculum, but looking at the task itself that you're gonna have students engage with, be it a game or a, Shelly (19:39.356) and Mike (20:07.96) project or some kind of activity and really thinking like, what can I get from this as a person who's trying to make sense of students thinking? And I think my checklist suddenly feels really different when I've got a clear vision of like, what can I get from this task or this game that students are playing and looking for evidence of that versus feeling like I was pulling kids over one-on-one, which I think I would still do because there's some depth that I might want to capture. But it it changes the way that I think about what I might do and also what I might get out of a task So that that really resonates for me Shelly (20:47.066) Yeah, and I think absolutely, you know, I didn't want to make individual interviews or anything sound bad because we can't do them. just, you there's the downfall of, you know, kids comfort level with that and ask them to do something on demand. But we do want more depth and it's that depth that, you know, we know who we want more depth on because of these informal types of observations that we're gathering on a daily basis in our class. You know, might, says something and we take note I want to touch bases with that thinking or I think I'm going to go observe that child during that workplace or maybe we're seeing some things happening during a game and instead of you know like stopping the game and really doing some in-depth interview with the student at that moment because you need more information I can might I might want to call them over and do that more privately at a different time so you're absolutely on there's a place there's a place for you know both Mike (21:42.466) The other thing that you made me think about is the extent to which, like one of the things that I remember thinking is like, I need to make sure if a student has got it or not got it. And I think what you're making me think can really come out of this experience of observing students in the wild, so to speak, when they're working on a task or with a partner is that I can gather a lot more evidence about the application of that idea. I can see the extent to which students are. doing something like counting on in the context of a game or a task. And maybe that adds to the evidence that I gather in a one-on-one interview with them. But it gives me a chance to kind of see, is this way of thinking something that students are applying in different contexts, or did it just happen at that one particular moment in time when I was with them? So that really helps me think about, I think, how those two... maybe different ways of assessing students, be it one-on-one or observing them and seeing what's happening, kind of support one another. Shelly (22:46.268) think you also made me think, you know, really hit on this idea that students, like I said, you their learning is evolving over time. And it might change with the context so that they, you know, they show us that they know something in one context with these numbers or this, you know, scenario. But they don't necessarily always see that it applies across the board. I mean, they don't, you know, make these. generalizations. That's something that we really have to work with students to develop. they're also, they're young children. Think about how quickly a three-year-old and a four-year-old change, you know, the same five to six, six to seven. I mean, they're evolving all the time. And so we want to get this information for them on a regular basis. You know, a unit of instruction may be a month or more long. And a lot can happen in that time. So we want to make sure that we continue to check in with them and help them to develop if needed or that we advance them. know, we nudge them along. We challenge them with maybe a question. Will that apply to every number? So a student discovers, when we add one to every number, it's like saying the next number. So six and one more is seven and eight and one more is nine. And you can challenge them, ooh, does that always work? What if the number was 22? What if it was 132? Would it always work? you know, when you're checking in with kids, you have those opportunities to keep them thinking, to help them grow. Mike (24:23.426) I want to pick up on something that we haven't necessarily said aloud, but I'd like to explore it. You know, looking at young students work from an asset-based perspective, particularly with younger students, I think I often had points in time where there felt like so much that I needed to teach them. And sometimes I felt myself focusing on what they couldn't do. Looking back, I wish I had thought about my work as noticing the assets, the strategies, the ways of thinking. that they were accumulating. Are there practices you think support an asset-based approach to assessment with young learners? Shelly (25:06.278) think probably the biggest thing we can do is broaden our thinking about assessment. The National Council of Teachers of Mathematics wrote in Catalyzing Change in Early Childhood and Elementary Mathematics that the primary purpose of assessment is to gather evidence of children's thinking, understanding, and reasoning to inform both instructional decisions and student and teaching learning. If we consider assessments and observations as tools to inform our instruction, we need to pay attention to the details of the child's thinking. And when we're paying attention to the details, what the child is bringing to the table, what they can do, that's where our focus goes. So the question becomes, what is the student understanding? What assets do they bring to the task? It's no longer, can they do it or can they not do it? And when we know, when we're focusing on just what that student can do, and we have some understanding of learning progressions, how students learn, then we can place what they're doing kind of on that trajectory, in that progression, and that becomes knowledge. And with that knowledge, then we can help students move along the progression to develop more developed understanding. For example, again, if I go back to my six plus seven and we notice that a student is direct modeling, they're counting out each of the sets and counting all, we can start to nudge them toward counting on. We might cover, you know, they were using that number rec, we might cover the first row and say, you just really showed me a good physical representation of six plus seven. And I kind of noticed that you were counting the beads to see how many were there. I'm wondering if I cover this first row. How many beads am I covering? Hmm. I wonder, could you start your counting at six? You know, we can kind of work with what they know. And I can do that because of Shelly (27:31.928) I haven't, I've focused on where they are in that progression and where that development is going. And I kind of have a goal of where I want students to go, you know, to further their thinking. Not that being in one place is right or wrong, or yes they can do it, no they can't. It's my understanding of what assets they bring that I can build on. Is that kind of what you're after? Mike (27:58.51) It is, and I think you also addressed something that again has gone unsaid, but I think you, you, you unpacked it there, which is assessment is really designed to inform my instruction. And I think the example you offered us a really lovely one where, we have a student who's direct modeling and they're making sense of number in a certain way and their strategy reflects that. And that helps us think about the kinds of nudges we can offer. that might shift that thinking or press them to make sense of numbers in a different way. That really the assessment is, it is a moment in time, but it also informs the way that you think about what you're gonna do next to keep nudging that student's thinking. Shelly (28:44.348) Exactly, and we have to know that if we have 20 students, they all might be, you know, have 20 little plans that they're on, 20 little pathways of their learning. And so we need to think about everybody, you know. So we're going to ask questions that help them do them, and we're going to honor their thinking. And then we can, you know, like so again, I'm going go back to like doing that dot talk with those students. And so I'm honoring all these different ways that students are finding the total number of dots. And then I'm asking them to look for what's the same within their thinking so that other students also can serve to nudge kids, to have them let them try and explore a different idea or, ooh, can we try that Mike's way and see if we can do that? hmm, what do you notice about? how Mike solved the problem and how Shelly solved the problem. Where is their thinking the same? Where is it different? And so we're honoring everybody's place of where they're at, but they're still learning from each other. Mike (29:51.224) You know, you have made multiple mentions to this idea of progressions or trajectories, and I'm wondering if there are resources that have informed your thinking about assessment at the early ages. Is there anything you would invite listeners to engage with if they wanted to continue learning, Shelley? Shelly (30:13.008) I think Mike, had that question earlier, so just pause this for a second. Okay. I know you will. I just know it's right here. Mike (30:16.558) That's okay, no worries. We'll cut every single bit of this out and it will sound supernatural. Yeah, yeah. Mike (30:39.854) Brent's over here multitasking. Shelly (30:41.85) OK. OK, I'm just making sure that I'm not going to blow it. I think you're spot on. I think I thought we skipped something. No, it's up here. Mike (30:53.132) Okay, just pick up whenever you're ready. Shelly (30:55.108) Yeah, I just have too many notes here. Shelly (31:10.084) OK, I've got it. Do you want to ask the question again? Mike (31:12.258) Go for it. Absolutely. Yep. Are there resources you'd invite listeners to engage with if they wanted to keep learning, Shelly? Shelly (31:28.368) You phrased that a little bit different. What I answered was, what are some of the resources that helped you build an understanding of children's developmental progressions? Do you have that question? Or I can jump on from what you asked, too. Mike (31:35.5) Okay. Yeah, let let. No, no, no, let me let me ask the question that way. Shelly (31:42.202) Okay. Mike (31:45.774) Okay, how did we have it in the thing? Can you say it one more time and I'll say it back in the question? Shelly (31:50.768) What are some of the resources that help to build an understanding of children's developmental progressions? Mike (31:56.504) Perfect. What are some of the resources that helped you build an understanding of children's developmental progression, Shelley? Shelly (32:05.34) Honestly, I can say that I learned a lot from the students I taught in my classroom. My roots run deep in early childhood. And I can also proudly say that I have a career-long relationship with the Math Learning Center and Bridges Curriculum, which has always been developmentally appropriate curriculum for young learners. And with that said, I think I stand on the back of giants. practitioner researchers for early childhood who have spent decades observing children and recording their thinking. I briefly mentioned Cognitively Guided Instruction, which features the research of Thomas Carpenter and his team. And their book, Children's Mathematics, is a great guide for K-5 teachers. I love it because I mean, the recent edition has QR codes where you can watch teachers and students in action. You can see some interviews. You can see some classroom lessons. And they also wrote young children's mathematics on cognitive-guided instruction in early childhood education. So I mean, they're just a great resource. Another teacher researcher. is Kathy Richardson, and some listeners may know her from her books, the developing number concept series or number talks in the primary classroom. And she also wrote a book called How Children Learn Number Concepts, Guide to the Critical Learning Phases, which targets pre-kindergarten through grade four. And I love that Kathy writes. in her acknowledgments that this work is the culmination of more than 40 years working with children and teachers observing, wondering, discussing, reading, and thinking. Shelly (34:11.692) It is. So spot on to the observations and the things that I noticed in my own teaching, but it's also still one of the most referenced resources that I use. And if podcasts had a video, I would be able to hold up and show you my dog eared book with sticky notes coming out the all the sides because it is just something that. just resonates with me again. And then I think also maybe less familiar. Mike (36:38.958) I think you mentioned giants and those are some gigantic folks in the world of mathematics education. The other piece that I think really resonates for me is I had a really similar experience with both CGI and Kathy Richardson in that a lot of what they're describing are the things that I was seeing in classrooms. What it really helped me do is understand how to place that behavior and what the meaning of it was in terms of students understanding of mathematics. And it also helped me think about that as an asset that then I could build on. Shelley, I think this is probably a great place to stop, but I wanna thank you so much for joining us. It has really been a pleasure talking with you. Mike (37:28.95) Say thank you again, but definitively. Mike (37:35.48) Brent, how do you feel about that? Mike (37:41.966) do you want to jump in? Yeah, feel free. Mike (38:04.194) is Is there a question I could ask that would set you up? Mike (38:14.574) can work that in to a new ending. Mike (38:42.872) Do you, there something that you want to add though, Shelley? Cause we can, we can edit it, edit content in, and we can sequence content in too. So if there's something that mattered to you, we can absolutely add it. Mike (39:14.542) Let's do a question like that then. Mike (39:35.02) What if we see... Mike (39:40.578) Why don't you, why don't, Yeah, why don't you say it? Go ahead and say it the way that you you it was going to flow out and then we'll we can edit this in definitely. Mike (39:59.191) Okay. Okay, go for it. Yeah, yeah. Mike (40:06.676) can I tell you this is one of the smoothest podcast recordings we have had? There's nothing to be sorry about. Mike (40:18.562) There, okay, I was, can you ask the question again, Mike? So that it's clean. Mike (40:29.752) Are there resources you would invite our listeners to engage with if they want to continue learning? Mike (42:26.328) I think that's a great place to stop. Shelly Schaefer, thank you so much for joining us. Mike (42:38.602) That was perfect. Yeah, fantastic. I'm gonna cut roll. No, there's nothing to be sorry about © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org [http://www.mathlearningcenter.org/]