How Indie Artists Are Gaming Spotify Without Getting Banned with Dorian Perron

How Indie Artists Are Gaming Spotify Without Getting Banned with Dorian Perron

In this episode, Max Bernstein [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] sits down with Dorian Perron [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorian-perron-44102177], Co-founder of Groover [https://www.linkedin.com/company/heygroover/], to break down how artists actually grow on Spotify today through playlists, algorithms, and data-driven strategies. Dorian explains why playlisting has become the dominant form of music promotion, replacing traditional outlets like blogs and radio, and how artists can use it to generate real audience growth. He also talks about the risks of artificial streaming, how to identify fraudulent playlists, and why engagement matters far more than follower count. The conversation also explores how Spotify’s algorithm works behind the scenes, including the importance of early traction, popularity scores, and listener behavior. Dorian shares actionable strategies for artists to maximize campaigns, build momentum across platforms, and avoid common mistakes that can hurt long-term growth. Key Takeaways * Why playlisting has become the most important driver of music discovery * How to spot fake playlists and avoid artificial streaming penalties * Why engagement matters more than playlist follower count * How Spotify’s algorithm rewards early traction and listener consistency * The growing role of AI in music creation and its impact on the industry Key Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction to the changing landscape of playlisting 04:42 - Identifying fraudulent playlists and avoiding artificial streams 09:12 - How to create successful independent playlists 14:01 - Using social media and ads to build playlist engagement 19:58 - Why territories like Brazil and Mexico are critical for growth 23:08 - How Spotify’s algorithm works and the importance of early traction 28:00 - What genres have the biggest indie playlists? 28:54 - The role of digital ads in Groover’s growth strategy 30:00 - What people think about AI generated music 37:29 - Where to follow Dorian and Groover for more tips and updates Follow Our Guest, Dorian Perron * Dorian Perron LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorian-perron-44102177 [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorian-perron-44102177] * Groover LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/heygroover/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/heygroover/] * Indeflagration LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/indeflagration/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/indeflagration/] * Dorian Perron Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dorianflagrant/ [https://www.instagram.com/dorianflagrant/] * Groover Music Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/groover.music/ [https://www.instagram.com/groover.music/] * Groover Obsessions Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/grooverobsessions/ [https://www.instagram.com/grooverobsessions/] * Groover Website: https://groover.co/https://groover.co/en/ [https://groover.co/en/] * Indeflagration Website: https://indeflagration.fr/ [https://indeflagration.fr/] Follow the Host, Max Bernstein: * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] * X: https://x.com/relationlco [https://x.com/relationlco] Follow RELATIONL: * Website: https://www.relationl.co/ [https://www.relationl.co/] * YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationl [https://www.youtube.com/@relationl] * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/] * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/ [https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/]

Is Rock Music Back with Ashlyn Bruni

In this episode, Max Bernstein [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] sits down with Ashlyn Bruni [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashlyn-bruni-37535269/], A&R Coordinator at Hopeless Records [https://www.linkedin.com/company/hopelesssub-city-records/], to break down the resurgence of rock music and what it takes for artists to succeed in today’s landscape. Ashlyn shares how modern A&R has evolved beyond chasing streams and viral moments, focusing instead on genuine fan connection, community-building, and long-term artist development. She also unpacks how independent labels operate, the shift toward distribution and licensing deals, and the trade-offs artists face when choosing between indie and major routes. The conversation also explores the role of TikTok in discovery, the risks of trend-chasing, and the growing impact of AI on music creation, offering a clear look at where the industry is heading and what artists need to stand out. Key Takeaways * Why rock music is making a strong comeback and what’s driving the revival * What A&R actually looks for beyond streams, followers, and viral moments * Why fan connection and community matter more than audience size * The shift from traditional record deals to distribution and licensing models * How AI and TikTok are both helping and hurting artist discovery Key Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction to Ashlyn Bruni and her role at Hopeless Records 01:15 - The resurgence of rock music: What’s driving the comeback? 03:30 - How A&R evaluates artists in 2026 06:00 - Why indie labels are becoming a better option for many artists 08:15 - The shift from traditional record deals to distribution and licensing models 11:00 - The role of TikTok in artist discovery and trends 13:20 - The risks of chasing viral moments and social media success 15:00 - Women in the music industry and overcoming gender bias 17:40 - The importance of representation for emerging artists 20:00 - Ashlyn’s thoughts on the future of rock and new talent 22:30 - Artists to watch right now in the rock scene 24:00 - Where to connect with Ashlyn and final thoughts Follow Our Guest, Ashlyn Bruni * Ashlyn Bruni Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashlyn.bruni/ [https://www.instagram.com/ashlyn.bruni/] * Ashlyn Bruni LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashlyn-bruni-37535269/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashlyn-bruni-37535269/] * Hopeless Records Website: https://www.hopelessrecords.com/ [https://www.hopelessrecords.com/] * Hopeless Records LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hopelesssub-city-records/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/hopelesssub-city-records/] Follow the Host, Max Bernstein: * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] * X: https://x.com/relationlco [https://x.com/relationlco] Follow RELATIONL: * Website: https://www.relationl.co/ [https://www.relationl.co/] * YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationl [https://www.youtube.com/@relationl] * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/] * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/ [https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/]

Stop Chasing Virality with Mark Roberge

In this episode, host Max Bernstein [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] sits down with Mark Roberge [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-roberge/], a musician, founder of FanFlowy [https://fanflowy.com/], to break down the systems-driven approach behind building a sustainable music career in today’s industry. He is also the co-founder of Make Our Music [https://www.linkedin.com/company/make-our-music/] and serves as CEO of Bamrock Entertainment [https://www.linkedin.com/company/bamrock-entertainment/] and Prospect Hill Entertainment [https://prospecthillband.com/]. Mark shares how artists can move beyond chasing virality and instead build predictable, scalable growth using marketing funnels, fan acquisition strategies, and automation. Drawing from his experience as both a touring musician and tech founder, he explains why Spotify followers, not just monthly listeners, are the key metric for long-term revenue, and how independent artists can realistically generate six-figure incomes through a combination of streaming, merch, and live shows. Together, Max and Mark explore how to treat music like an e-commerce business, why owning your audience is critical, and how to turn casual listeners into lifelong superfans through intentional systems and storytelling. Key Takeaways * Why Spotify followers matter more than monthly listeners for long-term income * How to build a full-funnel marketing system for music (ads → fans → superfans) * The role of merch, live shows, and community in maximizing fan lifetime value * How automation and tools like FanFlowy reduce workload while scaling growth * Why consistency, not virality, is the foundation of a sustainable music career Key Timestamps 00:00 – Followers vs. monthly listeners: the metric that actually drives revenue 01:24 – How 50K Spotify followers can translate into $100K+ annual income 04:20 – Building real fans vs. chasing viral moments 06:46 – Applying e-commerce funnels to music marketing 19:29 – What high-converting ads for artists actually look like 23:18 – Inside the fan journey: from signup to superfandom 31:26 – Using SMS, email, and automation to nurture fans 37:55 – How much work artists actually need to put in 41:26 – Final thoughts - where to connect Follow Our Guest, Mark Roberge * Make Our Music website: https://www.makeourmusic.com/ [https://www.makeourmusic.com/] * Make Our Music LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/make-our-music/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/make-our-music/] * FanFlowy Website: https://fanflowy.com/ [https://fanflowy.com/] * Mark Roberge LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-roberge/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-roberge/] * Prospect Hill Entertainment LLC Website: https://prospecthillband.com/ [https://prospecthillband.com/] * Bamrock Entertainment LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bamrock-entertainment/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/bamrock-entertainment/] * Make Our Music Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makeourmusic [https://www.instagram.com/makeourmusic] * Make Our Music Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makeourmusic [https://www.facebook.com/makeourmusic] * Make Our Music Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@makeourmusic [https://www.youtube.com/@makeourmusic] Follow the Host Max Bernstein: * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] * X: https://x.com/relationlco [https://x.com/relationlco] Follow RELATIONL: * Website: https://www.relationl.co/ [https://www.relationl.co/] * YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationl [https://www.youtube.com/@relationl] * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/] * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/ [https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/]

The Team Energy Fix for Music Leaders to Stop Burnout Fast with Marni Wandner

In this episode, host Max Bernstein [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] sits down with Marni Wandner [https://www.linkedin.com/in/marniwandner/], founder of Future Present [https://www.linkedin.com/company/future-present-co/], to explore how leadership, burnout prevention, and human-centered systems can reshape the way the music industry works. Drawing from her journey through artist management, running a successful marketing agency, experiencing burnout, and ultimately building a coaching and consulting practice, Marni introduces the Five Archetypes framework, based on the Chinese elements, as a practical tool for understanding behavior, communication styles, and stress responses. Together, Max and Marni unpack how self-awareness improves collaboration, why energy management is more important than time management, and how companies can scale sustainably by designing systems that support people, not just output. Key Takeaways 1. What the Five Archetypes (Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water) reveal about leadership and decision-making 2. How burnout shows up differently depending on personality and stress response 3. Why self-awareness is the foundation of better collaboration and communication 4. How to manage energy sustainably in high-pressure creative environments 5. Why healthy systems, not hustle are the key to long-term success in music Key Timestamps 00:00 – What is Future Present and the philosophy behind the work 02:08 – How Marni works with music companies and creative teams 04:31 – Integrating neuroscience, leadership, and the Five Archetypes 12:00 – Inside the Five Archetypes assessment and group sessions 15:08 – Live archetype analysis of Max’s leadership style 23:22 – Using archetypes to make better decisions under pressure 26 24 – Can archetypes change over time? Nature vs. nurture 35:04 – Burnout risk, stress tolerance, and resilience 46:56 – Energy management, systems, and avoiding constant fire drills 56:32 – Real-world company transformation case study 59:08 – Mergers, acquisitions, and human-centered integration Follow Our Guest, Marni Wandner 1. Future Present website: https://www.futurepresentco.com/ [https://www.futurepresentco.com/] 2. Marni Wandner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marniwandner/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/marniwandner/] 3. Marni Wandner Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marniwandner/ [https://www.instagram.com/marniwandner/] 4. Future Present Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurepresentco/ [https://www.instagram.com/futurepresentco/] Follow the Host Max Bernstein: 1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] 2. X: https://x.com/relationlco [https://x.com/relationlco] Follow RELATIONL: 1. Website: https://www.relationl.co/ [https://www.relationl.co/] 2. YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationl [https://www.youtube.com/@relationl] 3. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/] 4. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/ [https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/]

Your Lost Music Royalties with Jamie Hart

In this episode, host Max Bernstein [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] sits down with Jamie Dee Hart [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiedhart/] founder of Hart & Songs [https://www.linkedin.com/company/hart-and-songs/], a music rights management expert who helps artists, writers, and management teams clean up registrations and collect the royalties they’re owed. Jamie breaks down the real-world consequences of skipping “boring admin” from unclaimed royalties that can expire after a limited retroactive window to situations where someone else claims your work in YouTube Content ID. Together, they walk through what actually needs to happen once a song is finished and released, collecting writer info and IPI numbers, locking in splits, registering songs with PROs and the MLC, setting up YouTube publishing monetization, and making sure sound recording royalties like SoundExchange aren’t missed. They also discuss how independent artists and managers can keep their catalog clean, avoid royalty delays, and be better positioned when opportunities and deals come along. Key Takeaways: 1. Unregistered songs can forfeit past royalties after a limited retroactive window 2. Split discrepancies can pause payouts until all parties agree to amendments 3. Pub admins help collect key royalties you can’t easily collect yourself (incl. YouTube publishing-side) 4. Proper metadata (IPI, publisher info, ISRC) is essential for tracking and matching 5. Manager checklist: PRO + pub admin + YouTube/Content ID coverage + SoundExchange performer setup Key Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Jamie’s background in rights management 00:04:57 - What artists lose when they don’t register 00:07:10 - The retroactive window (why older streams can be gone) 00:10:54 - Why a publishing admin is critical 00:17:47 - Top-to-bottom workflow: splits, PRO, admin, ISRC 00:21:06 - How split disputes delay royalties 00:32:35 - YouTube, Music Reports/Peloton, SoundExchange, neighboring rights 58:08:07 - Jamie’s 3-month cleanup + training approach 01:01:00 - notes.fm and the “catalog health check” idea Follow our guest, Jamie Dee Hart: 1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiedhart/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiedhart/] 2. Hart & Songs LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hart-and-songs/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/hart-and-songs/] 3. Hart & Songs Website: https://www.hartandsongs.com/ [https://www.hartandsongs.com/] 4. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiedeehart/?hl=en [https://www.instagram.com/jamiedeehart/?hl=en] Follow the Host Max Bernstein: 1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/] 2. X: https://x.com/relationlco [https://x.com/relationlco] Follow RELATIONL: 1. Website: https://www.relationl.co/ [https://www.relationl.co/] 2. YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationl [https://www.youtube.com/@relationl] 3. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/] 4. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/ [https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/]