Life is a Long Quiet River (in Shanghai)

The Wind Blows from Longxi

Jane: So hello and welcome back to That Chinese show. Today I’m really excited to have a special guest straight from Beijing, my good friend Li Chen Hao (李辰昊). So I’m going to ask Chen Hao to introduce himself and tell us a little bit about what he does. Chen Hao: Sure. Thanks Jane, for having me here. I was Jane’s student at Tsinghua university on her debating class. And after I graduated from Tsinghua, I studied in NYU for two years. And now I’m back in Beijing and working as a cash bond trader in a security company.  Jane: Okay. Well, I do have to add that you’re being very modest. You were one of my very best students. Well, I did not know you’d been at New York university. Well, last week we looked at an urban family drama Xin Ju and today we’re going to go change gears pretty radically. And we’re going to look at a series that’s in a genre, if you’re interested in Chinese TV or in Chinese culture, it’s very hard to ignore, and that is [00:01:00] the historical drama. Chen Hao will correct me if I get this wrong, but today we’re gonna look at Fengqi Longxi  Chen Hao: Yes. Feng qi Longxi.  Jane: Ah good thank you could you say that again for our listeners? Chen Hao: Fengqi longxi so translated as Wind Blows from Long Xi, right?  Jane: That’s right. And is that an accurate translation?  Chen Hao: yes. Very accurate. I should say.  Jane: And it’s a very exciting show. And one thing I have to say about this show, it is absolutely packed with really well-known Chinese movie stars. I think there’s even Angelababy, you’ve got Chen Kun, who’s kind of a classic, there are others. But this is not an easy access TV series. It covers a very particular period in history called the Three Kingdoms. So could you tell us a little bit about that period in history in China, and also tell us what an average Chinese person just know about these events?  Chen Hao: Sure. First I have to admit that I’m [00:02:00] not an expert in history, but I’ve done some research that turns out that the Three Kingdom’s period started from 220 AD. and ended at 280 AD. So it has merely 60 years of history, which is very short comparing to other Chinese history of like 5,000 years. But it’s so well known I think the main reason behind that is because that we’ve all read a book called the Romance of the Three Kingdoms,  Jane: And when was this novel written, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms? Is it a modern novel, or is this something that’s historical? Chen Hao: When I say the big four China’s classic novels is all ancient.  Jane: Right. And I think one of the really famous, some famous historical figures, like Cao Cao comes out of that period. Correct.  Chen Hao: Cao Cao right. Yeah. And you could say there are many games that generated from that period of time like San guo wu shuang (三国无双). I’m not sure the English version of it. Dynasty Warriors?  Jane: [00:03:00] Okay in that sense, it really corresponds like for an American viewer, much more recent, but like the period of the wild west was a very sort of short time in our history, but it’s a bit mythologized. So there are a lot of TV shows about this period. Some of them I’ve seen before. What is different about this particular series for you?  Chen Hao: I think there are two main reasons. One is that this series is actually a alternative history series. So it’s somehow deviated from the novel itself so that you don’t know where the plot, will go, and that remains more attraction for the audience. And the second is that it focused on the spy part and I am a big fan of spy things myself.  Jane: That is a major part of the show. I agree with you. I think the whole spy angle became really fascinating. And that brings me to another question. One of the themes for me anyway, that starts to come up in this series is the theme of loyalty. I just wonder [00:04:00] if you could tell us a little bit about that, how is loyalty presented? Cause I think the show sort of asks the question, but it doesn’t really answer that question. You know, what does loyalty really mean?  Chen Hao: But that’s a very deep question. What, what does loyalty really means? I mean, you know in China’s history I’ll say is shi chu you ming (师出有名） which means if you’re going to start a battle, there has to be some right reasons for that. And one big reason for that is the loyalty. As we often see that three kingdoms, one of of which is Shu Han (蜀汉） the starter called Liu Bei was actually called himself the successor of the former dynasty, which somehow represents his view of loyalty to the old dynasty and there is a very famous advisor or minister of Shu Han (蜀汉） and his sole loyalty to his master. Liu Bei, and even after Liu Bei died, Liu Bei’s son, Liu Shan continues, his father’s work Jane: yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that because I [00:05:00] feel like that is a real constant theme in so many Chinese literary works or in TV series is this loyalty through time to a dynasty, even when it falls, even when a new emperor has been put in place. I’ve seen this time and again, and you do see this in this series that people are very loyal to these entities that seem really abstract to the viewer, because you know, when the show opens, the Han dynasty is gone, right? There is no Han dynasty. The other thing I thought was interesting in the show is that family loyalty seems to have a very special place because Chen Gong, Xu Xun..  Chen Hao: Xun Xu, Yes  Jane: they’re bound by family. Right? They are brother-in-laws and they do decide to go out on their own. So would you say family loyalty is a really important part of this series? Chen Hao: It’s definitely a really important part. I think in this series, [00:06:00] you can see a lot in the betrayal among different entities. And you can also see love and brotherhood, which is loyalty on a perspective of the individuals. And as you just said, Chen Gong and Xun Xu their brotherhood is so solid that they could trust each other for no reasons and achieve their goal. So it’s definitely worth watching..  Jane: Cause in the part of this series where I am now, it looks pretty dark for them. So I hope it’s going to get better for them. One of the other themes of the show, I think are technological advances. Because the entire premise of the show is based on, the Wei state wants to steal some military plans. Chen Hao: I thought this, uh no spoilers  Jane: Yeah, you’re right. You shouldn’t. Well, I won’t reveal what happens, but there is a, uh, these, these technological inventions of the crossbow that both sides are fighting over, but there’s also there’s [00:07:00] actually a flying machine in the show. Did you find that to be realistic?  Chen Hao: You know that flying machine is called a zhu que 竹鹊）in the show and which could be translated into a bamboo magpie and I did some research that turns out that the bamboo magpie was first invented in the chun chu period and it could be, could be seen as an early version of kite. I think so I’m not so sure if there is such a flying machine to carry people a hundred meters away, but I think we can just take it as an expression of art.  Jane: I ,you’re, right. It’s sort of artistic license, but I have to say the contraption actually does look like it could be something from that period. Right. It doesn’t look too modern. And it is a bit scary when they get the things on their backs, you know, you’re like, Ooh, I don’t think that’s going to, I think they really need to watch out before they go over that cliff. Did you see any other deeper themes in the show that you might ever a Chinese person [00:08:00] might pick up on that perhaps is a little bit more difficult for Western audiences to see ? Chen Hao: I just think that one fascinating thing about this show is that not only this show, but also, all type of three kingdoms period shows there are so many stratagems that could be shown to an audience. And I think that the especially Western audience may have a little bit difficulty to understand them. And for this show in particular you know, it’s a spy show and there are so many, not only stratagems, but also schemes in this show that might be difficult for the audience to understand, but this is very fascinating, I promise..  Jane: I wanted to ask you, would you recommend this show to a Western audience or anyone who wants to know more about China? Chen Hao: if you want to know more about China, I think they are other shows that could be a more realistic perspective of China but this show many focus on the story between[00:09:00] Chen Gong Xun Xu and they are part of entity. And I think the fascinating part of them is you don’t know who is from whose side and that spy part is the most attractive to me. Jane: Right. I think that’s a universal appeal. There are some surprises in the show, you know, you think, you know, people and then you realize..  Chen Hao: Turns out you don’t Jane: oh really? I had no idea. You know, you, it turns out there are things that the show chooses to reveal to you, and then you find out later. I also think, I, I completely agree with you if you’re interested in Chinese culture, this perhaps is not the best show to begin with. Do you have a historical drama you can think of that might be good for somebody who’s just trying to, discover Chinese ancient history or Chinese culture during that time. Chen Hao: For Chinese history, I think there’s no such a drama because they’re all generated from the real history but not a hundred percent real history, but I believe this show and [00:10:00] other historical shows could help any Western audience to have a taste of Chinese culture, because, you know, as it was just that, as we just discussed, there’s a loyalty, there’s brotherhood, which is true and remains in the history of Chinese culture.  Jane: That’s true. I think you’re absolutely right. There are some facets of Chinese culture of the way that families are perceived loyalty, those kinds of issues, which are more or less universal. And I also have to put in a little note I love historical, drama genre and I have watched quite a few and I do have to mention I The Longest Day in Chang’an which is a 2019 historical drama. That’s something I absolutely loved that show. And you’ve seen it too as well. Chen Hao: I’ve sent it except for the last episode. I forgot to seen it for some reason. Yeah.  Jane: Well, no spoilers but one of the things I just wanted to ask you quickly about that show is that you have a very [00:11:00] international cast. You have Western actors who speak Chinese flawlessly. And I just wonder if you thought that would be a little bit more appealing to a Western audience or not?  Chen Hao: I think that would definitely be one big reason for the producer or director choose them because they want this show to appear appealing to the Western audience. I’m not so sure about the history period of that show but my guess is that might be at the Tang dynasty because it was a very strong dynasty and we very open to other countries and they all wanted to come to China to do business, but maybe I’m wrong.  Jane: Very good, you’re good with your history because that one actually does take place during the Tang dynasty. So very good guess, I think another appeal for Western audiences for that show is the fact that one of the main characters is the former leader of a boys band. He’s a really good actor, but that’s not our [00:12:00] show. That’s a different show and we will be looking at that in our podcast, but not today. I want to thank you so much Chen Hao for giving us some of these insights. Do you have any last comments for our listeners about Chinese TV or any recommendations for us?  Chen Hao: I would like to recommend this show to all the audience. Personally, I would say that I am not such a fan for TV shows especially nowadays, because I think this industry’s somehow distorted. The producers and directors, they hire those data traffic stars, but instead of for really good at acting. But this show, , most actors are really good at acting and keeps audience to stay curious about the plot and it’s only 24 episodes. So it won’t be too long for you to watch. And you can see many strategems and schemes, love stories, and brotherhood, and loyalty and betrayal. So I would definitely recommend this show..  Jane: [00:13:00] And that was our review of The Wind Blows from Long Xi. I want to thank Li Chen Hao again for that excellent review of the series for taking the time out of a busy schedule there in Beijing, not only to give us a great review, but also to take the time to watch the series. If you’re interested in watching the series, you can pick it up on Viki Rakuten. You have all 24 episodes with subtitles, or you can also watch it on YouTube. You have to jump around a little more to find the shows in sequence, but they are there. Otherwise you can also go on one of my personal favorite streaming sites Drama Cool. You don’t always have subtitles but you can find almost anything you’re looking for that’s put out in Asia  And I hope you’ll join us next week for the very final episode of our first season. For the last episode, we’re going to be reviewing a science fiction thriller called kai duan (开端). It’s really popular in China right now. And the English translation of that is [00:14:00] Reset. Now as the title suggests, our two main characters do get stuck in a time loop. But if you watch this series, you will find it as anything but repetitive. So it’s a short, intense series, only 16 episodes. And i’m really excited to review it with you and a special guest next week!

Life is a Long Quiet River (in Shanghai)

How do the elderly live in big cities like Shanghai? This week’s episode touches on problems facing families in China today through a discussion of the wildly popular Life is a Long Quiet River (2022) with my good friend Li Xiang (李翔）and his wife Wang Ting （王婷). Audio Transcript Jane: [00:00:00] Hello. And welcome back to that Chinese show. Today i’m going to sit down with my good friend Li Xiang and his wife Qing and we’re going to talk about a new urban drama called Xinju (心居). It’s very popular in China right now and the English translation on that is Life is a Long Quiet River. Xiang: Okay. Hi, Jane, thanks for your invitation today. So I’m pleasure to show my opinion about this show. I come from Wei Feng. My parents live always in Shandong. So now I live in Arras near Paris with my wife.  Jane: Great. Well Qing why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself too  Ting: Okay. So Thanks for your invitation. I’m glad to see you today. I was a student in France. So we have met in Paris and we get together and we get married. Now we have a [00:01:00] daughter who is two. years’ old.  Jane: Oh, well, thank you for making time. I’m sure you’re very busy with your daughter. And where are you from in China Qing?  Ting: I come from the same state as Xiang.  Xiang: We found it’s about nine million population, so it’s not a so big city, like Beijing, like Shanghai .  Jane: Well, it’s bigger in Paris, but mid-sized for China. Okay. Well, let’s get into our show. So we’re looking at a family drama that I am very much enjoying. I have to say. So. Last week we looked at how Hao Hao shuo hua, which is a romantic comedy. This is more, I mean, there are love stories in this show, but it’s more of a family drama and it basically follows the adventures of the Gu family. So what I’d like to do is just get into some of the themes. This is a spoiler free review. So we’re not going to talk about plot details, but we are going to talk about some of these themes. So one of the themes [00:02:00] of the show that emerges is the problem of the elderly in China and what to do about older people who are basically vulnerable often in need of care, but whose families are either too busy or not nearby and cannot take care of them. Could you talk to us about this phenomenon? Is this realistic the way it’s presented in the show and is it a preoccupation for young people like yourselves who have young children? Are they often in a situation where their elderly parents are far away or they cannot care for them? Ting: Well it, it is now a real problem in China because how to explain that many years ago in the generation of our parents or even before. The first time when young couple to get married it’s a wife lives with the other family’s his husband, [00:03:00] because it’s a Chinese traditional because we like to live together. Jane: That is actually a part of the show. The daughter-in-law. Takes care of her in-laws and she, she feels like this is a very strong duty that she has. I mean, she really views this as her job. And I think for Western audiences, this is a bit strange because she, is an incredibly devoted, even though they’re not always that nice to her. Ting: Well, it, yes, it is another problem because before it is like that we like live together with all the families. We feel happy and for example the grandparents well, take care of the children of their children. How to say that  Jane: Right they provide the childcare for the younger children, such as yourself, but things are obviously not like that anymore. In China, you have a lot of people who have moved [00:04:00] away. So do you have this problem in your own family? I mean, you have your parents and your grandparents are in China today. Who’s taking care of them? Xiang: So from my grandparents. So it’s my parents take care to my grandparents. Jane: Okay. So if you project this a few decades later who do you think will take care of your parents? Are you planning to go back to China or how will this work?  Xiang: Exactly. So this is our project in about 20 years, because now, my parents. is in good health Okay. So now we don’t need to take care every day, but now for the Chinese young people, we need the work hard to have a good job.  Jane: So if you just take France for an example, you know, there, there is a very highly developed childcare system that is subsidized by the state. And you [00:05:00] also have a lot of elderly care facilities, because this is in the show that you know, this woman who, delivers food to these big, high rises. She sees there, these elderly people who are basically in need of care and unsupervised, she wants to start an elderly home. Do you think that this is going to develop in China? I mean, will people trust the government to take care of the elderly? Is this a project or do you think it will always remain in the care of the families? Xiang: I think this is good question, because now the government of China develop system for—  Ting: Taking care of the old people. It is really a big social problem now in China, because for example, our generation for every family, we can have just one child.  Jane: So this is something you think in the years to come, the Chinese government is going to put in place more measures for the elderly population, because it is rising [00:06:00] so rapidly? Or do you think it will always be the families or private companies that they will depend on to take care of this section of the population?  Xiang: I think this is depend of the city. Because in the big city, like Beijing and Shanghai. The young people come from another province not was born in this city. Jane: That brings me to another question in the series and that is how competitive and brutal the workplace is. The way that it is presented in the series, you basically can be fired for, for almost anything. There is even one of the characters is like, oh, Shanghai is like this, you’ve got to stand tall in Shanghai. You know, it’s really presented as a battle that if you come to Shanghai, you have to be ready to try these very underhanded tactics. There are characters who do things that are very shady, but they’re presented as people just trying survive. Hi. Hello. Hi baby. [00:07:00] So Is that is that realistic? Is the workplace that brutal in large cities in China? Because that is really the way it is presented in the series. Ting: I think in the biggest cities. Yes. Because for example, former students who have graduated from the universities it’s based on the big cities like Beijing, Shanghai, and they have two choices. They will stay or they will get back to join the families, to live their parents and for the students, they have lived normally in this big city, for four years, They like, the city, it is more developed than his original city. And they choose to stay in the big city and the big city that’s the pressure is very, very high.  Jane: The competition really is that brutal.  Ting: In the big city I think yes.  Jane: [00:08:00] So, this is actually quite a fascinating issue that I’d just like to touch on rapidly. Is that paradox there seems to be an urban society in China that I feel like is really treated in interesting and honest ways in this series. And that is on the one hand you’ve got this very rapidly aging population, especially in large cities and they’re not always cared for very well. But on the other hand, you’ve got students who have come in from the different regions and rural areas in China. And once they are in the big city, they stay in the big city. So the labor market is very young. There’s like this incredible downward pressure or young-ward pressure, I guess you’d have to say. Where once you’re out of university, if by the time you’re 30. If you’re not got a job as a manager, you really there’s this perception you’re done for, and that’s actually portrayed in this series and I’ve seen it time and again in other Chinese series. [00:09:00] So I think this is an interesting issue, an urban phenomena, that you have one of the most rapidly aging populations in the world on the one hand but on the other hand you have this urban landscape where it seems like there’s only a place for the young at least in the workforce and it is being treated in really interesting ways by various types of Chinese TV.   So I I’d like to move on to another theme that is in the within the show and that is the delivery person the whole culture surrounding, you know, what the Chinese call, “wai mai” (外卖）, you know, “song wai mai” (送外卖） and the character xiao qin the daughter-in-law, who becomes a delivery girl. You know, this is, it’s so much more developed in China and obviously you can have anything delivered almost, even though that’s coming to the West. So could you talk to us about the delivery culture in China and how big a part does it play in everybody’s lives?  Ting: [00:10:00] Well, well, it is very, very developed in China and they, they are two types after delivery people so one as they were people for the food. It is very used for the young people because they work very hard. They have time, or they don’t know how to for cooking. And there’s another, is that the sorry, it’s a delivery for the purchase for the things? Yes. Like Tao Bao Jing Dong I don’t know if you heard about this tool.  Jane: Tao Bao, well, I remember when I left China, the day that I left China, I actually had a bag delivered to my apartment in less than two hours. I realized I didn’t, I needed another bag. And this was in 2012. So this gives you an idea of how developed this is. I ordered a bag on Tao Bao and said, I need it. Now I’m leaving for the airport. And the guy was like, “xing xing [00:11:00] xin, mei wenti!” (yes, no problem!) And I thought he’ll never arrive in time, but yeah, 15 minutes later, he was at the gate of our apartment, which I was just floored. I realized I could never have had that kind of. In Paris.  So I want to thank you all for joining me. Our conversation was cut a little bit short with Xiang and Qing because they had to go take care of their daughter. But I think we touched on a lot of interesting issues and I really hope this inspires you to go take a look at this series Life is a long quiet river. All 35 episodes are available on YouTube with English subtitles. So I hope you like what you’ve heard. If you have tune in with us next week, we’re going to shift gears pretty radically. We’re going to go and look at a historical drama this time. Now it’s one that’s just come out. Not going to give away any spoilers, but I’m also going to be interviewing a good friend of mine who was my former student and who lives in Beijing [00:12:00] right now, so tune in next week and I hope you have a great day. And you’ve had a good time listening to That Chinese Show.

Simmer Down

好好说话 (hao hao shuo hua) with guest Li Man This week I sat down with my guest Li Man to discuss this very popular 2022 Rom Com and the role that talk shows and legal issues play in everyday life in China. Audio Transcript: Jane: So hello and welcome to this very first episode of That Chinese Show. Our podcast is a conversation about Chinese TV and culture, and the format is very simple. Each week with a guest, I discuss a Chinese TV series. So rest assured if you are watching one of these shows, this is a no spoiler review. So we won’t be revealing any plot details, but we’ll be talking about themes and we’ll be talking about the characters of course, and the culture surrounding them. So this week for our very first podcast, I’d like to talk to you about Hao hao shuo hua or in English, this has been translated into Simmer Down. I’m not really sure why, but we can talk about that a bit later. So the series is very simple. It follows the adventures of talk show, host Yang Guang. And I’ll have to ask my guest to forgive me for massacring the Chinese on that, but. It’s very elegantly played by the actor Chen Xiao who mediates family [00:01:00] disputes. So you sort of think of the Shanghai version of Oprah or Dr. Phil it’s that kind of show. So without any further ado, I’d like to get into it. So thank you. Li Man for joining us, as our guest today.  Li Man: Thank you. Thank you for having me.  Jane: I’d like to start by letting Li Man introduce herself. So if you could just tell us a little bit about your life and your family.  Li Man: I was born and grown up in a small town called Ping Yuan, which is in Northwest Shandong Province. My dad worked in the beer factory. My Mom left the family when I was very young. So I spent much of my childhood with my grandparents. And later on, I started and worked in Beijing from where I had the opportunity to come to London to work. Okay. Great. Well, that is a super introduction, especially since I think a lot of elements of your life are very relatable in this show. I also think you’re being modest. I mean, just to let our audience know, Li Man studied at one of the best universities in China at [00:02:00] Bei Da. you’ll correct me if that’s wrong which is Beijing University. It’s one of the premier universities. And she was one of my very first teachers when I was in China. So how are you enjoying the show?   I enjoyed it but I was put in this way, I wouldn’t sit down to watch it, but it was good company when I was cooking. Jane: Okay, great. Well we’re going to go a little bit further into detail with the show now. So perhaps you could tell me, I mean the show basically it’s billed as a romcom, so romantic comedy and you’ve got three love stories that sort of intertwine. So I’d like to know from you how realistic are the portrayals of the family relationships in the show? Li Man: I think there are some exaggerations. For example, the relationship in Liao Wang which is the key character Liao Wang’s family, the working relationship between Yang Guang and his female superior Zhi Ling. They don’t really ring [00:03:00] true. The rest in general they’re quite realistic. Jane: So for our listeners Liao Wang is a lawyer. So that’s the principle love interest of Yang Guang. And the twist in this is that she’s representing his estranged mother who’s trying to get back the family house basically. He did not grow up with his mother. He does not talk to his mother and this lawyer represents the estranged mother. So that’s how they come into contact with each other. So sort of a story of a guy who mediates family disputes, but you can tell he’s got a lot on his own plate. So Zhi Ling is his boss so this is Yang Guang’s female boss, you know, sort of a woman in her forties, a very strong character very beautiful. What is it about her that rings false to you?  Li Man: The working relationship between Yang Guang and Zhi Ling. I mean, the relationship is just too relaxed. If you work in a media being quite a famous host for this talk show, I’m sure you have to work very [00:04:00] hard . Jane: No, and I think you’re right. It’s something I noticed about this show too, is that you know, The focus are these love stories and so the characters spend a lot of time sitting around at their desks, talking about other things, you know, perhaps that this is impossible, it really can’t show how a working TV show would look like. Although I have to say on Apple TV+ “That Morning Show”, that’s a Western show for those of you don’t know. And that, that you do see a high octane early morning show and the way that people are just working themselves to death and I think China would be very similar and it is an extraordinarily relaxed atmosphere for a show that’s being aired on national TV. So I definitely join you in that reservation, but yeah, that’s true. So, their relationship is a bit more like a pretext. The next thing is how realistic do you find the love stories? Because they move in an extraordinarily slow pace in this show. I mean, this is a 40 some episode show so you do have to fill the episodes, but how realistic is that? Li Man: I don’t find it developed [00:05:00] slowly. Not at all. I think it’s quite normal speed. I can’t speak for, for anyone of course, but maybe if you ask a person who is in their twenties or in their thirties, they would probably give you a different answer, but I’m in my early forties so I would say. It didn’t develop slowly at all, but we also believe if the relationship moved too quickly, too fast it won’t last long.  Jane: Okay, this is interesting. Cause I think this points to a bit of a difference in, at least American entertainment, Chinese entertainment. I mean, it takes them 16 episodes to exchange WeChat, you know, most American TV shows have 16 episodes in the whole season. So the fact that we’re at episode 16, that, you know, he just gets her WeChat information. I wonder if this doesn’t point to a larger cultural difference. People do take a bit longer in China to get to know each other. Your background is important. What your family thinks is something that is very [00:06:00] important to the characters in this show. Would you say that’s also something you’ve noticed?  Li Man: Yeah, I agree because it’s not only, you know, it’s two persons, It is also the two families and later on, so everybody has to be very cautious when they get into a relationship and we as a Chinese, we all know. And normally we will have, we have a saying say, when you get married, it’s not you and your wife or your husband get married, it’s your two families get married. So if you jump into that relationship too fast, you will have trouble later. So it’s a better to know the person or the family behind, more before you start a serious relationship.  Jane: Okay. That’s interesting. I have to say. I felt like one of the reasons this moved so slowly was, and I really would be interested in getting your feedback on this, is that the characters are very slow to open up to each other, especially to share information. It’s quite obvious to me that some of these episodes could have completely disappeared if some [00:07:00] of the characters had just opened up or said, look, my family isn’t going to accept this. Let’s talk about it. How can we work this out? But a lot of the motors of action in the show are characters hiding things from each other. I’m thinking of a moment where Yang Guang goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure his family does not see the show in which, you know, his love interest is appearing because she sort of this enemy of the family, right. Li Man: Actually I’m on your side in regarding this, this question, because personally I would just tell and share. But it’s, I think probably it depends on their characters and how the people behind how designed these characters. Jane: But you didn’t find it unrealistic—  Li Man: I don’t find unrealistic. I I’m aware of people around me who quite slowly to open up. Jane: There’s a dimension to this show that I think our listeners might find really interesting is, you know, our, the love interest of Yang Guang is a lawyer. So law and [00:08:00] legal problems play a big role in the show. We don’t really know what that’s like. Could you address this for our listeners and tell us how the average Chinese person views the law in China and views lawyers in particular? Li Man: I think this is a very interesting question because I think law actually plays an important role in ordinary Chinese people’s lives. The idea is hopefully we won’t need it, but it is important to understand it. An example came immediately into my mind is actually my granny, her favorite show is called, “Jing ri shuo fa”, which translated into English, it’s called Legal Report. It’s a daily program is from CCTV one. I have to say, CCTV is not cameras. CCTV is China Central Television. So that report uses real cases, but tell the audience, in a story, how can I say it presented like a [00:09:00] story, but it’s real cases. So Granny loves it. She watch it every day at lunch time.  Jane: Wow. That’s really interesting. That’s a lot like our show actually.  Li Man: Yeah. But well, another point I have to mention Granny is in her late eighties, so she still cares. She thinks to understand the law is important even until now she has never used a lawyer has never gone to a court, but yeah, this is important to understand it. As I said, I have other, I think your question, how can I say there’s different levels to answer your question. Have you ever heard about the phrase “yi fa zhi guo” which translated into English is a ” comprehensive governance of the country according to law”? It was the first used on the Fifth National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party in 1997 [correction: it was the 15th National Party Congress and not the 5th]. Since then more and more legal programs appeared on CCTV TV channels and, and local channels.[00:10:00] But secondly, people are richer than before of course. Now they have properties and money to worry about. Jane: Well, do people trust the law in China? Because in the West we have these very, very partial visions of the law, these very famous international cases. I’m thinking of Bo Xi Lai a few years ago, or these criminal cases in which you see the courts judge the case like in a single day. But I mean, there are over a billion people in China, so you really can’t have an organized society without a pretty developed legal system. So would you say the average Chinese person has faith in his own legal system?  Li Man: I think so. I do think so. Well, what else can we use if we don’t use the law what else? Because actually, what I wanted to say you know, people get richer and there’s another point where we shouldn’t forget because of the development of the economy, the urbanization of towns and the villages increased the mobility of the population hugely. This means the traditional village or local [00:11:00] community level dispute settlement mechanism needed to be changed. So as we said, if we don’t trust the law what else can we use? Before I know when I was little, I’m talking early eighties, you know how people do to settle a dispute in my village?  No, how? But before I get into that, I have to introduce my village first. The village was a medium size village, which contains around that time, maybe less than 1000 people. And the village was divided into two parts where we call that east end or west end. So I live in the west end of the village and which is the Li family part and the other end is Zhang family. If we have some, dispute between the Li families, what we do is we find the village head, the leader, and the Li family, what do you call the patriarch? And then we sit down, sit down with the families who have a dispute and discuss [00:12:00] what to do, and then settle the dispute. That’s what we do. We don’t really need the law, but now, as I said, the urbanization, of the towns and the villages. People, the village now disappeared. They have all gone. People moved into flats and now in a big compound. We’ve got a lot of other people, new people. We have never met before, move into the same compound and the old system doesn’t work anymore. Jane: So now you have local courts now that mediate disputes.  Li Man: So we have to trust the law. That’s the, that’s the way to settle now, to settle the dispute now, Jane: And how do Chinese people view lawyers? Are they, you know, in America, there’s sort of a love, hate relationship, being a lawyer is a very high level of education, but at the same time we have the ambulance, chasing lawyer you know, the “Better call Saul.” I don’t know if you’ve seen that series, but it’s about a lawyer who does run after people’s misfortunes and make money off of that. Do Chinese people view their lawyers in a similar way? [00:13:00]  Li Man: No, I don’t think so. I think in general people trust lawyers, I think it’s quite different. We don’t really have the idea that lawyers work for the rich. We don’t have that idea. Jane: And how long if someone wants to be a lawyer in China, like our main character, our female love interest. She’s a junior lawyer in this very large law firm. Do you, how long do you have to study to become a lawyer?  Li Man: I’m not sure, actually I know. Well, just according to my knowledge, they have to go to the particular university it’s called law school and to do the four years bachelor and then maybe do some intern in the law firm. Jane: The last thing I really wanted to touch on Is something that’s a very strong motor of action in this show, and that is maintaining face. It there’s a lot that goes on in the show because characters want to keep up appearances. You you’ve even got parents who go to extraordinary lengths to hide from their daughter the fact that their marriage is, is really is not a real marriage, for instance, are they, they no longer get [00:14:00] along or they’ve become estranged, and you have other people, I’m thinking of Yang Guang’s boss, who hides a problem she has that really is a super impediment to her being with the man she loves just because she’s afraid of losing face, which for me, it just seemed wildly. Why would you give up your happiness? Just because you want to appear a certain way to someone you’ve already been married to for the past 15 years. So I just wonder if you could address this for us and tell us, is this a real issue in China or is this a sort of a stereotypical cheap plot trick? Li Man: First of all, I’ll admit there is something which I was thinking is, is it is, face saving project. But none of the examples you mentioned, I think is for saving the face. For example, Liao Wang’s parents. They try to keep a harmonious relationship is not to save their face is for the sake of their child. Jane: Right.  Li Man: Yeah, it’s more to protect their [00:15:00] child because in the show it indicated, Liao Wang born and grew up in happy family, like a little cocoon and she was very well protected, but now the cocoon has become sort of bubble, but even that the parents don’t want to break the bubble. They still would like to protect their child. That’s not a face saving thing. And also please be aware that Chinese parents can really sacrifice a lot for their children, particularly in the key moments of their children’s lives. For example, before the entrance examination to high school and to university, they wouldn’t break up even they are not in a loving relationship or they want to, they won’t to get divorced, they will wait. Jane: Right. I see your point with that. They’re not saving face for their daughter. They’re really doing that because they think it’s better for her. However, the relationship with the secondary love interests [00:16:00] sort of Yang Guang’s boss, and she’s been married for all these years and she just can’t bring herself to tell him that she can’t have children, and for me, it appears to be a very save facing thing. She just feels like, I guess she’s worried, he’ll leave, but she’s also worried about her image with him that she just can’t bring herself to be honest with him, because she’s let this drag on too long. So you feel like that is also not a face saving thing? Li Man: I don’t think it’s not a face saving thing.  Jane: Is it realistic to you?  Li Man: I, I I’m on that side. I just think it just a bit too much. I personally, I can’t understand.  Jane: Yeah, I thought, okay. So I think we can both put that up to cheap plot mechanism. Like they’ve got 40 episodes and these characters can’t end up together too soon. Right? If you’re thinking about our listeners right now, who are Western, who don’t know much about possibly Chinese culture or perhaps they do, would you recommend this show to them? Why or why not?  Li Man: Yeah, I think [00:17:00] I might recommend the show to people who would like to understand the current Chinese society a bit more. I think Yang Guang’s talk show, tackle the problems, which are debated and discussed by Chinese families every day. So if they will like to, if anybody would like to understand the current Chinese society. Yes, please watch it.  Jane: Oh, well, thank you so much Li Man I think this really gives us insight into Chinese society today gives us a perspective of someone who’s grown up and who is a player, a real life player in some of the situations that are described in the show. And thank all of you for joining our very first podcast. So if you’re interested in watching this show check out the description of the show. I will be putting all of the links in that. And of course, if you’d like to follow our show that Chinese show on social media, You can either check out the website that Chinese show.com follow us on Instagram. We’re also on [00:18:00] Facebook and we’re on Twitter. Thank you for joining us to today, Li Man.  Li Man: Thank you.  Jane: If you like what you’ve heard, please tune in for our next episode, which is going to be a conversation about Xin Ju. Very popular TV show in China right now. And that’s translated “Life is a long quiet river.” It’s a family drama this time, and it is set in 2018 in Shanghai. So very much pre COVID. I really hope you can join us.