Gena St. David on Betrayal, the Brain, and Nonviolent Action in a Polarized America, Part 1

Gena St. David on Betrayal, the Brain, and Nonviolent Action in a Polarized America, Part 1

What happens in our brains when we feel betrayed, and how do we learn to trust again? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with psychotherapist and theologian Dr. Gena St. David about betrayal, threat, and nonviolent action in our current political moment. Building on her work at the intersection of neuroscience, Christian theology and peacebuilding, Gena explains how our nervous systems move between safety and stress, and why conflict pushes us into our “lizard brain.” She also explains how betrayal undermines our trust in others and in our own perception, but also how working through the panic of mistrust into truth can actually deepen trust on the other side. Gena then turns to larger systems: political leaders who betray our hopes, industries built on hidden violence, and the overwhelming awareness many of us feel around animal agriculture, immigration, and climate breakdown. Drawing on her research with nonviolent practitioners around the world, she offers practical ways to: ++ Listen to our bodies as trustworthy early-warning systems ++ Discern when a threat is past vs. present ++ Run “small experiments” in relationships and systems to test where trust is warranted ++ Move through grief’s stages (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance) without rushing to action too quickly ++ Stay in our “upper brain” so we don’t become what we oppose Along the way, Suzanne and Gena connect Elphaba’s defiant “Defying Gravity” moment in the musical/film Wicked to our own rage at political betrayal, and ask how mimetic rivalry and the “spirit of accusation” are showing up in our polarized culture. They explore what it might mean to see enemies as “future friends,” in the spirit of Martin Luther King Jr., and to accept that different people will be in different stages of grief and action at any given time. If you’re feeling angry, betrayed, or paralyzed by the state of the world, this conversation offers both clarity and compassion. More about Gena: https://www.genastdavid.com/ [https://www.genastdavid.com/] The Brain & The Spirit: https://www.thebrainandthespirit.com/book [https://www.thebrainandthespirit.com/book] Gena's Substack, the Nonviolence Lab: https://genastdavid.substack.com/ [https://genastdavid.substack.com/] Follow Third Things First and get updates on the second edition of Suzanne's book, The Wicked Truth: When Good People Do Bad Things! www.thewickedtruth.com [http://www.thewickedtruth.com] 4:10 Gena’s work at the intersection of neurobiology, theology, and nonviolence 5:28 Safety vs. stress: upper brain, lizard brain, and “eat or be eaten” 9:22 Betrayal as double danger 10:04 Misreading threat in close relationships: Gena’s bedroom panic story 13:29 Oxytocin, relief, and how misperceived threats can still build trust 15:37 Learning to trust ourselves 17:33 Nonviolence research and small experiments in trust 18:59 Betrayal by systems and hidden suffering 20:25 The “three A’s” of reckoning with systemic violence 21:52 Elphaba’s political anger 23:23 Grief and the stages we can’t skip 25:47 The danger of becoming what we oppose 26:24 Third things and seeing enemies as future friends 27:19 Why not everyone will be in the streets at the same time 29:39 Discernment question: what is this moment asking of me?

From Accusation to Gratitude: The Mysticism of Daily Joy, with Jim Warren and Sally Graciela Ramirez

Do you feel in touch with your deepest goals and desires? Or do your dreams feel more like distractions from the hurt and broken relationships you've been avoiding? In this follow‑up episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross continues the conversation with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about how magic and mysticism influence their spiritual practice. Then, they delve into even thornier issues of scapegoating, humility, and daily practices of joy. Sally describes how she reads Tarot as a tool for discernment rather than fortune‑telling, steering clients away from fantasy and toward reconciliation. Her practice, she explains, is less “magic” than mysticism grounded in humility, scripture, and love of neighbor. Jim reflects on how this inner work connects to mimetic theory and our current culture of rivalry and blame. He names “the spirit of accusation”—our urge to point the finger and feel certain we know who the problem is—as a key driver of polarization, resentment, and escalating conflict. Drawing on Girard’s insights about scapegoating, he invites listeners to look at the three fingers pointing back at us: the shame, guilt, and woundedness that so often hide beneath our righteous anger and desire for vengeance. The episode also explores: - How authentic dreams differ from escapist fantasy. - A gentle, inclusive approach to Christian mysticism. - Morning routines and the mysticism of the mundane. - The shared gratitude of two people looking back on lives once filled with "nightmares," now filled with love, shalom, and unexpected gifts. If you’re wrestling with accusation (online or in your own heart), trying to discern between holy longing and fantasy, or simply looking for grounded, accessible practices of prayer and joy, this conversation offers both spiritual depth and very practical tools. 👉 Explore Jim and Sally’s work: Jim's website: https://warrenmagic.com/ [https://warrenmagic.com/] Jim's book: https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Apocalypse-Comprehensible-Thought-Girard/dp/178279073X [https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Apocalypse-Comprehensible-Thought-Girard/dp/178279073X] Sally's website: https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/ [https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/] Sally's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI] ⏱ Chapters (approx.) 0:00 Dreams vs. fantasy: why real dreams require reconciliation 2:07 Sally on Tarot cards as tools 6:30 How did these two meet? 9:54 Mysticism as awareness of interconnectedness and love 12:15 The humble power of "not knowing" 15:13 Rene Girard and the “spirit of accusation” in modern culture 19:55 Finding joy and gratitude in daily life

Magic, Tarot, and How Wonder Can Transform Conflict, With Jim Warren and Sally Graciela Ramirez

What if close‑up magic and Tarot readings could help us loosen our certainty, imagine new possibilities, and take small steps toward peace with justice? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren, and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about art, mystery, and conflict transformation. James, an MDiv-trained magician who has performed for years at Hollywood’s Magic Castle, shares why he calls magic “possibility in your pocket”—a playful, off-the-cuff art form that can be done anywhere, anytime, to create moments of wonder and release. Drawing on Soren Kierkegaard, he explains how powerful tricks can free people from the “box” of necessity, spark laughter and awe, and even build unlikely bridges across racial and class divides. Sally, whose spiritual journey has woven through Zen Buddhism, Sufi-led psychic development, Native American traditions, and a return to Catholicism, explains how she uses Tarot as a contemplative tool rather than fortune-telling. Through images like the Hermit and the Star, she invites clients to look inward, heal family relationships, and co‑create a life of spiritual alignment, not just personal desire. For her, mysticism is grounded, prayerful, and oriented toward loving neighbor and making peace at home. Together, James and Sally explore: - How art forms like magic and Tarot can function as “third things” in tense communities, creating safe space for imagination and shared delight. - The difference between fantasy and ethically grounded dreams, and why inner work and reconciliation must precede “manifesting” outcomes. - How Christians might rethink “occult” fears and see the continuity between deep prayer, symbolic art, and inclusive, Spirit-led discernment. - Why small, face‑to‑face acts of wonder—like a card trick between strangers—can be a real practice of peacebuilding and nonviolent connection. If you’re curious how art, mystery, and faith can open new paths through conflict, or you’re skeptical about magic and Tarot but still longing for more imaginative tools, this conversation offers playful, thoughtful, and disarming perspectives. 👉 Learn more and connect: James Warren: https://warrenmagic.com/ [https://warrenmagic.com/] Sally Grace Readings: https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/ [https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/] Sally's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI] 🕊 Sign up for our newsletter at www.thewickedtruth.com [http://www.thewickedtruth.com] to receive updates on every new upload, and info on the revised Wicked Truth ebook, a study of how you can use the musical Wicked as a “third thing” to galvanize communities seeking peace with justice! 0:00 Magic anywhere 2:05 Why certainty blocks conflict transformation 3:15 Introducing magician James Warren and mystic Sally Graciela Ramirez 5:18 Sally’s journey: Zen, Sufi teachers, and returning to Catholicism 10:00 How Sally uses Tarot: prayer, images, and healing 15:17 What Jim wants audiences to experience: release, laughter, and awe 16:45 Magic as possibility vs. necessity 21:18 Can magic be a “third thing” in conflict communities? 26:38 Handling skepticism and fear of magic and the occult 29:40 Tarot, discernment, and neighbor love 35:31 Closing reflections on art, Tarot, magic, and peace with justice

Blessing in the Freefall: Anger, Grief, and Joy with Andrew DeCort, p2

In part 2 of their conversation, Suzanne Ross talks with theologian and peacebuilder Dr. Andrew DeCort about moving through shame and rage into what he calls the “purple sphere” of grief—and discovering blessing and joy on the other side. Andrew, author and founder of the Neighbor Love Movement and the Reframe newsletter, shares from his recent arrest with 90+ faith leaders in a nonviolent protest against ICE in Minneapolis and reflects on how our culture’s “glee in other people’s grief” corrodes our souls and our politics. Drawing on James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Andrew and Suzanne explore what it means to resist othering without becoming otherers ourselves. Together they trace a kind of emotional “stratigraphy”: * Green shame, that sinking sense of not being enough * Red anger, the fire that can be destructive or creative * Purple grief, the terrifying freefall where “why finds no answer” * Blue joy, the ambient delight that appears when we love what is truly good You’ll hear practical Neighbor Love practices for metabolizing anger, inhabiting grief safely in trusted relationships, and blessing even those we oppose: ICE officers, political leaders, and ourselves. Andrew models a radical blessing practice inspired by Bonhoeffer: “Despite everything, you belong to God.” If you’re feeling consumed by political rage, tempted to dehumanize those you see as the problem, or struggling to believe that you belong to God, this conversation offers an honest, embodied, and hopeful path forward. 👉 Follow Andrew’s work: * Website: https://andrew-decort.com [https://andrew-decort.com] * Substack (Reframe / Stop & Think): https://andrewdecort.substack.com [https://andrewdecort.substack.com] ⏱ Chapters (approx.) 2:14 Green shame, red anger, and the descent into purple grief 4:28 Glee in others’ grief and DHS’s Christmas deportation memes 7:17 Fear as the ether around shame, anger, and grief 8:44 Grief must be witnessed: vulnerability and safe relationships 9:13 Pain as superpower: circles of exclusion becoming solidarity 12:19 Nonviolence as creative response vs. reactive conformity 14:12 Not othering the otherers and blessing our enemies 15:11 Bonhoeffer’s embodied blessing and belonging to God 19:55 Blue joy: loving what is good in nonviolent resistance 21:23 Kneeling in the cold: ambient joy at the Minneapolis ICE protest 24:04 Wicked’s ambiguous fall as an image of grief’s “unlimitedness” 26:11 How to follow Andrew and his upcoming book

The Dissident Theologian Arrested for Loving His Neighbor | Third Things First w/ Andrew DeCort, p1

Scholar, peacebuilder, and “dissident theologian” Andrew DeCort joins us from his bathtub to discuss his arrest at an anti-ICE protest in Minneapolis, and his discovery that anger is “a fire that can make beauty.” In this extraordinary conversation, Andrew and Suzanne explore the emotional landscape of working for justpeace in a world that rewards division. From the shame that tells us we don't belong, to the anger packed with information, to the grief that opens us to something deeper, this episode maps the inner journey that peacebuilders rarely talk about in public. In this episode, we explore: • What makes someone a “dissident theologian” — and why it's not something you choose • Andrew's arrest with 97 faith leaders at a nonviolent ICE protest in Minneapolis • Neighbor love as an abolition movement against othering • The emotional layers of peace work: shame → anger → grief → merriment • Why anger is like fire, and can forge as well as destroy • Moral emergencies: when belonging itself is in danger • James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the wisdom traditions that light the path • How Elphaba from Wicked mirrors the real-world tension between righteous anger and destructive rage ABOUT OUR GUEST Andrew DeCort, PhD (University of Chicago), is a scholar of religious and political ethics, founder of the Institute for Faith and Flourishing, and co-founder of the Neighbor-Love Movement in Ethiopia, which has reached over 20 million people. He has taught at Wheaton College, Ethiopian Graduate School of Theology, and Bonn University. His latest book, Reviving the Golden Rule: How the Ancient Ethic of Neighbor Love Can Heal the World, is available now. Learn more: andrew-decort.com [http://andrew-decort.com] Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu [https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu] TIMESTAMPS 00:00 — Introduction 02:42 — What makes a "dissident theologian"? 05:42 — The Neighbor Love Movement and abolishing othering 09:40 — Why othering persists: the benefits of division 10:40 — The emotional landscape of peace work 11:38 — Elphaba, Wicked, and righteous anger 12:06 — Nonviolent direct action in Minneapolis and moral emergencies 14:24 — Elphaba's green, shame, and James Baldwin 15:21 — Shame as the chemical weapon of othering 16:17 — What is a moral emergency? 18:00 — Anger as fire: Audre Lorde, Richard Schwartz, and speaking FOR your anger 19:00 — A ceremony of burning: the father's desk, the dissertation, the running shoes 20:30 — The Fire Arts Center and George Floyd: blacksmiths as peacebuilders 21:34 — From shame to anger to grief: the colors of peace work LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE 🎧 Apple Podcasts: Third Things First on Apple Podcasts 🎧 Spotify: Third Things First on Spotify 📰 Substack: thewickedtruthsr.substack.com [http://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com] 👻 Ghost: the-wicked-truth.ghost.io [http://the-wicked-truth.ghost.io] 🔔 Subscribe to this channel for new episodes every other week!