The Ezra Klein Show

A good rule of thumb is that whatever Margaret Atwood is worried about now, the rest of us will likely be worried about a decade from now. The rise of authoritarianism. A backlash against women’s social progress. Climate change leading to social unrest. Advertising permeating more and more of our lives. We originally released this episode back in March 2022. But just like Atwood’s work, it somehow only got more relevant with time.  Atwood is the author of at least 17 novels, including the classic “The Handmaid’s Tale [https://www.penguinrandomhouseretail.com/book/?isbn=9780385490818],” as well as 20 books of poetry and nine collections of short fiction. When we spoke, she’d just published an essay collection, “Burning Questions [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/673327/burning-questions-by-margaret-atwood/].” And she has a new book coming out this fall, “Book of Lives: A Memoir of Sorts [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/673328/book-of-lives-by-margaret-atwood/].” Mentioned: Art & Energy [https://www.lord.ca/resources/books/art-energy] by Barry Lord Book recommendations: War [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609692/war-how-conflict-shaped-us-by-margaret-macmillan/] by Margaret MacMillan Biased [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557462/biased-by-jennifer-l-eberhardt-phd/] by Jennifer L. Eberhardt Secrets of the Sprakkar [https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Sprakkar-Icelands-Extraordinary-Changing/dp/1728242169] by Eliza Reid Charlotte’s Web [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/charlottes-web-e-b-whitekate-dicamillo?variant=32153972277282] by E. B. White Lord of the Rings [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-lord-of-the-rings-illustrated-edition-jrr-tolkien?variant=39702873309218] by J. R. R. Tolkien Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Special thanks to Kristina Samulewski, Coral Ann Howells and Brooks Bouson. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick and Aman Sahota. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Representative Marie Gluesenkamp Perez is one of just 13 Democrats to represent a district that Donald Trump won. Her distinctive economic message, and a willingness to buck her own party, helped her win re-election. But now the reality of the Trump era is coming home. Gluesenkamp Perez faced raucous crowds at town halls in Washington State recently, with some of her more liberal constituents furious that she isn’t opposing the administration more forcefully. At the same time, the White House has started making economic arguments that sound very similar to ones that she’s made – that we should consume less, produce more and import less stuff from abroad. So I wanted to talk to her about how she’s navigating this moment. What does she think of Trump’s economic agenda? What reactions is she seeing across her district? How does a Democrat now represent both terrified liberals and loyal Trump voters? This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: The Wheelwright’s Shop [https://angelicopress.com/products/the-wheelwright-s-shop?srsltid=AfmBOoqSzONmC0k9e7vONpCywwF9AbLn49UivaEXz5aUIvG3aIP3NbMl] by George Sturt Experiences in Visual Thinking [https://www.designersandbooks.com/book/experiences-visual-thinking] by Robert H. McKim Children’s poetry anthologies [https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/harperkids/poems-for-kids-jack-prelutsky] from Jack Prelutsky Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Switch and Board Podcast Studio. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The U.S. dollar is the lingua franca of the global financial system. The fact that so much of the world relies on our currency has long been understood as our exorbitant privilege — the reason we have so much leverage in the global economy and are able to borrow at lower interest rates. But the Trump administration has a much more complicated relationship with the dollar. It has come to see dollar dominance as a burden we bear on behalf of the rest of the world. But in its attempts to move away from dollar dominance, is the Trump administration on the verge of creating a financial crisis? Kenneth Rogoff is a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund and a professor of economics at Harvard University. He has a book coming out called “Our Dollar, Your Problem [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300275315/our-dollar-your-problem/].” In this conversation he walks through the history of dollar dominance, why it’s been waning in recent years and what ripple effects the Trump administration’s policies might have. This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: Muppets in Moscow [https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781538161289/Muppets-in-Moscow-The-Unexpected-Crazy-True-Story-of-Making-Sesame-Street-in-Russia] by Natasha Lance Rogoff The Queen’s Gambit [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Queen_s_Gambit/rXdVPwAACAAJ?hl=en] by Walter Tevis Benjamin Franklin [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Benjamin-Franklin/Walter-Isaacson/9780743258074] by Walter Isaacson Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

“Abundance [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Abundance/Ezra-Klein/9781668023488],” the book I co-wrote with Derek Thompson, hit bookstore shelves a little over a month ago, and the response has been beyond anything I could have imagined. And it’s generated a lot of interesting critiques, too, especially from the left. So I wanted to dedicate an episode to talking through some of them. My guests today are both on the left but have very different perspectives. Zephyr Teachout is a law professor at Fordham University and one of the most prominent voices in the antimonopoly movement. Saikat Chakrabarti is the president and co-founder of New Consensus [https://www.newconsensus.com/], a think tank that has been trying to think through what it would take to build at Green New Deal scale and pace. And he is currently running to unseat Nancy Pelosi in Congress. I found this conversation wonderfully clarifying — both in the places it revealed agreement, and perhaps even more in the places it revealed difference. Mentioned: “How the Gentry Won: Property Law’s Embrace of Stasis [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5159574]” by David Schleicher and Roderick M. Hills, Jr. “The High Cost of Producing Multifamily Housing in California [https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA3743-1.html]” by Jason M. Ward and Luke Schlake Zephyr’s Book Recommendations: The Promise of Politics [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/4710/the-promise-of-politics-by-hannah-arendt/] by Hannah Arendt The Populist Moment [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-populist-moment-9780195024173] by Lawrence Goodwyn Listen, Liberal [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781627795401/listenliberal/] by Thomas Frank Saikat’s Book Recommendations: Destructive Creation [https://www.pennpress.org/9780812224313/destructive-creation/] by Mark R. Wilson Bad Samaritans [https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/bad-samaritans-9781596917385/] by Ha-Joon Chang The Defining Moment [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Defining-Moment/Jonathan-Alter/9780743246019] by Jonathan Alter Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

I have no earthly idea how to describe this conversation. It’s about religion and belief – at this moment in our politics, and in our lives more generally. My guest and I come from very different perspectives. Ross Douthat is a Catholic conservative, who wrote a book called “Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious [https://www.zondervan.com/9780310367604/believe/].” I’m a … Californian. But I think everyone would enjoy this conversation — believers, skeptics and seekers alike. Some questions touched on: Is the Trump administration Christian or pagan? How do Christian Trump supporters reconcile the cruelties of this administration with their faith? Can religious experiences be explained by misfiring neurons? Should organized religions embrace psychedelics? Can mystery provide more comfort than certainty? And if you do enjoy this episode, be sure to check out Douthat’s new New York Times Opinion Audio show “Interesting Times [https://www.nytimes.com/column/interesting-times],” available wherever you get your podcasts, and on YouTube. Mentioned: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat [https://www.nytimes.com/column/interesting-times] “Donald Trump, Man of Destiny [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/15/opinion/donald-trump-assassination-destiny.html]” by Ross Douthat Living with a Wild God [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/barbara-ehrenreich/living-with-a-wild-god/9781455501762/?lens=twelve] by Barbara Ehrenreich Book Recommendations: Modern Physics and Ancient Faith [https://undpress.nd.edu/9780268021986/modern-physics-and-ancient-faith/] by Stephen Barr After [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250263032/after/] by Bruce Greyson Mind and Cosmos [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/mind-and-cosmos-9780199919758?cc=us&lang=en&] by Thomas Nagel Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.