Rounding Up

Season 4 | Episode 6 - Christy Pettis & Terry Wyberg, The Case for Choral Counting with Fractions

Christy Pettis & Terry Wyberg, The Case for Choral Counting with Fractions ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 6 How can educators help students recognize similarities in the way whole numbers and fractions behave? And are there ways educators can build on students' understanding of whole numbers to support their understanding of fractions? The answer from today's guests is an emphatic yes. Today we're talking with Terry Wyberg and Christy Pettis about the ways choral counting can support students' understanding of fractions. BIOGRAPHIES Terry Wyberg is a senior lecturer in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at the University of Minnesota. His interests include teacher education and development, exploring how teachers' content knowledge is related to their teaching approaches. Christy Pettis is an assistant professor of teacher education at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls. RESOURCES Choral Counting & Counting Collections: Transforming the PreK-5 Math Classroom [https://www.routledge.com/Choral-Counting--Counting-Collections-Transforming-the-PreK-5-Math-Classroom/Franke-Kazemi-ChanTurrou/p/book/9781625311092] by Megan L. Franke, Elham Kazemi, and Angela Chan Turrou Teacher Education by Design [https://tedd.org/] Number Chart app [https://apps.mathlearningcenter.org/number-chart/] by The Math Learning Center TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Terry and Christy. I'm excited to talk with you both today. Christy Pettis: Thanks for having us. Terry Wyberg: Thank you. Mike: So, for listeners who don't have prior knowledge, I'm wondering if we could just offer them some background. I'm wondering if one of you could briefly describe the choral counting routine. So, how does it work? How would you describe the roles of the teacher and the students when they're engaging with this routine? Christy: Yeah, so I can describe it. The way that we usually would say is that it's a whole-class routine for, often done in kind of the middle grades. The teachers and the students are going to count aloud by a particular number. So maybe you're going to start at 5 and skip-count by 10s or start at 24 and skip-count by 100 or start at two-thirds and skip-count by two-thirds. So you're going to start at some number, and you're going to skip-count by some number. And the students are all saying those numbers aloud. And while the students are saying them, the teacher is writing those numbers on the board, creating essentially what looks like an array of numbers. And then at certain points along with that talk, the teacher will stop and ask students to look at the numbers and talk about things they're noticing. And they'll kind of unpack some of that. Often they'll make predictions about things. They'll come next, continue the count to see where those go. Mike: So you already pivoted to my next question, which was to ask if you could share an example of a choral count with the audience. And I'm happy to play the part of a student if you'd like me to. Christy: So I think it helps a little bit to hear what it would sound like. So let's start at 3 and skip-count by 3s. The way that I would usually tell my teachers to start this out is I like to call it the runway. So usually I would write the first three numbers. So I would write "3, 6, 9" on the board, and then I would say, "OK, so today we're going to start at 3 and we're going to skip-count by 3s. Give me a thumbs-up or give me the number 2 when you know the next two numbers in that count." So I'm just giving students a little time to kind of think about what those next two things are before we start the count together. And then when I see most people kind of have those next two numbers, then we're going to start at that 3 and we're going to skip-count together. Are you ready? Mike: I am. Christy: OK. So we're going to go 3… Mike & Christy: 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36. Christy: Keep going. Mike & Christy: 39, 42, 45, 48, 51. Christy: Let's stop there. So we would go for a while like that until we have an array of numbers on the board. In this case, I might've been recording them, like where there were five in each row. So it would be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 would be the first row, and the second row would say 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, and so on. So we would go that far and then I would stop and I would say to the class, "OK, take a minute, let your brains take it in. Give me a number 1 when your brain notices one thing. Show me 2 if your brain notices two things, 3 if your brain notices three things." And just let students have a moment to just take it in and think about what they notice. And once we've seen them have some time, then I would say, "Turn and talk to your neighbor, and tell them some things that you notice." So they would do that. They would talk back and forth. And then I would usually warm-call someone from that and say something like, "Terry, why don't you tell me what you and Mike talked about?" So Terry, do you have something that you would notice? Terry: Yeah, I noticed that the last column goes up by 15, Christy: The last column goes up by 15. OK, so you're saying that you see this 15, 30, 45? Terry: Yes. Christy: In that last column. And you're thinking that 15 plus 15 is 30 and 30 plus 15 is 45. Is that right? Terry: Yes. Christy: Yeah. And so then usually what I would say to the students is say, "OK, so if you also noticed that last column is increasing by 15, give me a 'me too' sign. And if you didn't notice it, show an 'open mind' sign." So I like to give everybody something they can do. And then we'd say, "Let's hear from somebody else. So how about you, Mike? What's something that you would notice?" Mike: So one of the things that I was noticing is that there's patterns in the digits that are in the ones place. And I can definitely see that because the first number 3 [is] in the first row. In the next row, the first number is 18 and the 8 is in the ones place. And then when I look at the next row, 33 is the first number in that row, and there's a 3 again. So I see this column pattern of 3 in the ones place, 8 in the ones place, 3 in the ones place, 8 in the ones place. And it looks like that same kind of a number, a different number. The same number is repeating again, where there's kind of like a number and then another number. And then it repeats in that kind of double, like two numbers and then it repeats the same two numbers. Christy: So, what I would say in that one is try to revoice it, and I'd probably be gesturing, where I'd do this. But I'd say, "OK, so Mike's noticing in this ones place, in this first column, he's saying he notices it's '3, 8, 3, 8.' And then in other columns he's noticing that they do something similar. So the next column, or whatever, is like '6, 1, 6, 1' in the ones place. Why don't you give, again, give me a 'me too' [sign] if you also noticed that pattern or an 'open mind' [sign] if you didn't." So, that's what we would do. So, we would let people share some things. We would get a bunch of noticings while students are noticing those things. I would be, like I said, revoicing and annotating on the board. So typically I would revoice it and point it out with gestures, and then I would annotate that to take a record of this thing that they've noticed on the board. Once we've gotten several students' noticings on the board, then we're going to stop and we're going to unpack some of those. So I might do something like, "Oh, so Terry noticed this really interesting thing where he said that the last column increases by 15 because he saw 15, 30, 45, and he recognized that. I'm wondering if the other columns do something like that too. Do they also increase by the same kind of number? Hmm, why don't you take a minute and look at it and then turn and talk to your neighbor and see what you notice." And we're going to get them to notice then that these other ones also increase by 15. So if that hadn't already come out, I could use it as a press move to go in and unpack that one further. And then we would ask the question, in this case, "Why do they always increase by 15?" And we might then use that question and that conversation to go and talk about Mike's observation, and to say, like, "Huh, I wonder if we could use what we just noticed here to figure out about why this idea that [the numbers in the] ones places are going back and forth between 3, 8, 3, 8. I wonder if that has something to do with this." Right? So we might use them to unpack it. They'll notice these patterns. And while the students were talking about these things, I'd be taking opportunities to both orient them to each other with linking moves to say, "Hey, what do you notice? What can you add on to what Mike said, or could you revoice it?" And also to annotate those things to make them available for conversation. Mike: There was a lot in your description, Christy, and I think that provides a useful way to understand what's happening because there's the choice of numbers, there's the choice of how big the array is when you're recording initially, there are the moves that the teacher's making. What you've set up is a really cool conversation that comes forward. We did this with whole numbers just now, and I'm wondering if we could take a step forward and think about, OK, if we're imagining a choral count with fractions, what would that look and sound like? Christy: Yeah, so one of the ones I really like to do is to do these ones that are just straight multiples, like start at 3 and skip-count by 3s. And then to either that same day or the very next day—so very, very close in time in proximity—do one where we're going to do something similar but with fractions. So one of my favorites is for the parallel of the whole number of skip-counting by 3s is we'll start at 3 fourths and we'll skip-count by 3 fourths. And when we write those numbers, we're not going to put them in simplest form; we're just going to write 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths. So in this case, I would probably set it up in the exact same very parallel structure to that other one that we just did with the whole numbers. And I would put the numbers 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths on the board. I would say, "OK, here's our first numbers. We're going to start starting at 4 fourths. We're going to skip-count by 3 fourths. And give me a thumbs-up or the show me a 2 when you know the next two numbers." And then we would skip-count them together, and we would write them on the board. And so we'd end up—and in this case I would probably arrange them again in five columns just to have them and be a parallel structure to that one that we did before with the whole numbers. So it would look like 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths, 12 fourths, 15 fourths on the first row. And then the next row, I would say 18 fourths, 21 fourths, 24 fourths, 27 fourths, 30 fourths. And again, I'd probably go all the way up until I got to 51 fourths before we'd stop and we'd look for patterns. Mike: So I think what's cool about that—it was unsaid, but it kind of implied—is that you're making a choice there. So that students had just had this experience where they were counting in increments of 3, and 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and then you start another row and you get to 30, and in this case, 3 fourths, 6 fourths, 9 fourths, 12 fourths, 15 fourths. So they are likely to notice that there's something similar that's going on here. And I suspect that's on purpose. Christy: Right, that's precisely the thing that we want right here is to be able to say that fractions aren't something entirely new, something that you—just very different than anything that you've ever seen before in numbers. But to allow them to have an opportunity to really see the ways that numerators enumerate, they act like the counting numbers that they've always known, and the denominator names, and tells you what you're counting. And so it's just a nice space where, when they can see these in these parallel ways and experience counting with fractions, they have this opportunity to see some of the ways that both fraction notation works, what it's talking about, and also how the different parts of the fraction relate to things they already know with whole numbers. Mike: Well, let's dig into that a little bit more. So the question I was going to ask Terry was: Can we talk a bit more about the ways the choral counting routine can help students make sense of the mathematics of fractions? So what are some of the ideas or the features of fractions that you found choral counting really allows you to draw out and make sense of with students? Terry: Well, we know from our work with the rational number project how important language is when kids are developing an understanding of the role of the numerator and the denominator. And the choral counts really just show, like what Christy was just saying, how the numerator just enumerates and changes just like whole numbers. And then the denominator stays the same and names something. And so it's been a really good opportunity to develop language together as a class. Christy: Yeah. I think that something that's really important in these ones that you get to see when you have them. So when they're doing that language, they're also—a really important part of a choral count is that it's not just that they're hearing those things, they're also seeing the notation on the board. And because of the way that we're both making this choice to repeatedly add the same amount, right? So we're creating something that's going to have a pattern that's going to have some mathematical relationships we can really unpack. But they're also seeing the notation on there that's arranged in a very intentional way to allow them to see those patterns in rows and columns as they get to talk about them. So because those things are there, we're creating this chance now, right? So they see both the numerator and denominator. If we're doing them in parallel to things with whole numbers, they can see how both fractions are alike, things that they know with whole numbers, but also how some things are different. And instead of it being something that we're just telling them as rules, it invites them to make these observations. So in the example that I just gave you of the skip-counting, starting at 3 fourths and skip-counting by 3 fourths, every time I have done this, someone always observes that the right-hand column, they will always say it goes up by 15. And what they're observing right there is they're paying attention to the numerator and thinking, "Well, I don't really need to talk about the denominator," and it buys me this opportunity as a teacher to say, "Yes, I see that too. I see that these 15 fourths and then you get another, then you get 30 fourths and you get 45 fourths. And I see in those numerators that 15, 30, 45—just like we had with the whole numbers—and here's how I would write that as a mathematician: I would write 15 fourths plus 15 fourths equals 30 fourths." Because I'm trying to be clear about what I'm counting right now. So instead of telling it like it's a rule that you have to remember, you have to keep the same denominators when you're going to add, it instead becomes something where we get to talk about it. It's just something that we get to be clear about. And that in fractions, we also do this other piece where we both enumerate and we name, and we keep track of that when we write things down to be clear. And so it usually invites this very nice parallel conversation and opportunity just to set up the idea that when we're doing things like adding and thinking about them, that we're trying to be clear and we're trying to communicate something in the same way that we always have been. Mike: Well, Terry, it strikes me that this does set the foundation for some important things, correct? Terry: Yeah, it sets the foundation for adding and subtracting fractions and how that numerator counts things and the denominator tells you the size of the pieces. It also sets up multiplication. The last column, we can think of it as 5 groups of 3 fourths. And the next number underneath there might be 10 groups of 3 fourths. And as we start to describe or record what students' noticings are, we get a chance to highlight those features of adding fractions, subtracting fractions, multiplying fractions. Mike: We've played around the edges of a big idea here. And one of the things that I want to bring back is something we talked about when we were preparing for the interview. This idea that learners of any age, generally speaking, they want to make use of their understanding of the way that whole numbers work as they're learning about fractions. And I'm wondering if one or both of you want to say a little bit more about this. Terry: I think a mistake that we made previously in fraction teaching is we kind of stayed under 1. We just stayed and worked within 0 and 1 and we didn't go past it. And if you're going to make 1 a benchmark or 2 a benchmark or any whole number a benchmark, when you're counting by 3 fourths or 2 thirds or whatever, you have to go past it. So what choral counting has allowed us to do is to really get past these benchmarks, and kids saw patterns around those benchmarks, and they see them. And then I think we also saw a whole-number thinking get in the way. So if you ask, for example, somebody to compare 3 seventeenths and 3 twenty-thirds, they might say that 3 twenty-thirds are bigger because 23 is bigger than 17. And instead of embracing their whole-number knowledge, we kind of moved away from it. And so I think now with the choral counting, they're seeing that fractions behave like whole numbers. They can leverage that knowledge, and instead of trying to make it go away, they're using it as an asset. Mike: So the parallel that I'm drawing is, if you're trying to teach kids about the structure of numbers in whole number, if you can yourself to thinking about the whole numbers between 0 and 10, and you never worked in the teens or larger numbers, that structure's really hard to see. Am I thinking about that properly? Terry: Yes, you are. Christy: I think there's two things here to highlight. So one of them that I think Terry would say more about here is just the idea that, around the idea of benchmarks. So you're right that there's things that come out as the patterns and notation that happen because of how we write them. And when we're talking about place value notation, we really need to get into tens and really into hundreds before a lot of those things become really available to us as something we talk about, that structure of how 10 plays a special role. In fractions, a very parallel idea of these things that become friendly to us because of the notation and things we know, whole numbers act very much like that. When we're talking about rational numbers, right? So they become these nice benchmarks because they're really friendly to us, there's things that we know about them, so when we can get to them, they help us. And the choral count that we were just talking about, there's something that's a little bit different that's happening though because we're not highlighting the whole numbers in the way that we're choosing to count right there. So we're not—we're using those, I guess, improper fractions. In that case, what we're doing is we're allowing students to have an opportunity to play with this idea, the numerator and denominator or the numerator is the piece that's acting like whole numbers that they know. So when Terry was first talking about how oftentimes when we first teach fractions and we were thinking about them, we were think a lot about the denominator. The denominator is something that's new that we're putting in with fractions that we weren't ever doing before with whole numbers. And we have that denominator. We focus a lot on like, "Look, you could take a unit and you can cut it up and you can cut it up in eight pieces, and those are called eighths, or you could cut it up in 10 pieces, and those are called tenths." And we focus a lot on that because it's something that's new. But the thing that allows them to bridge from whole numbers is the thing that's the same as whole numbers. That's the numerator. And so when we want them to have chances to be able to make those connections back to the things they know and see that yes, there is something here that's new, it's the denominator, but connecting back to the things they know from whole numbers, we really do need to focus some on the numerator and letting them have a chance to play with what the numerator is, to see how it's acting, and to do things. It's not very interesting to say—to look at a bunch of things and say, like, "2 thirds plus 4 thirds equals 6 thirds," right? Because they'll just start to say, "Well, you can ignore the denominator." But when you play with it and counting and doing things like we was talking about—setting up a whole-number count and a fraction count in parallel to each other—now they get to notice things like that. [It] invites them to say things like, "Oh, so adding 15 in the whole numbers is kind of adding 15 fourths in the fourths." So they get to say this because you've kind of set it up as low-hanging fruit for them, but it's allowing them really to play with that notion of the numerator and a common denominator setting. And then later we can do other kinds of things that let them play with the denominator and what that means in those kinds of pieces. So one of the things I really like about choral counts and choral counts with fractions is it's setting up this space where the numerator becomes something that's interesting and something worth talking about in some way to be able to draw parallels and allow them to see it. And then of course, equivalency starts to come into play too. We can talk about how things like 12 fourths is equivalent to 3 wholes, and then we get to see where those play their role inside of this count too. But it's just something that I really like about choral counting with fractions that I think comes out here. And it's not quite the idea of benchmarks, but it is important. Mike: Well, let's talk a little bit about equivalency then. Terry. I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about how this routine can potentially set up a conversation around ideas related to equivalency. Terry: We could do this choral count—instead of just writing improper fractions all the way through, we could write them with mixed numbers. And as you start writing mixed numbers, the pattern becomes "3 fourths, 1 and a half, 2 and a quarter," and we can start bringing in equivalent fractions. And you still do the same five columns and make parallel connections between the whole numbers, the fractions that are written as improper fractions and the fractions with mixed numbers. And so you get many conversations about equivalencies. And this has happened almost every time I do a choral count with fractions is, the kids will comment that they stop thinking. They go, "I'm just writing these numbers down." Part of it is they're seeing equivalency, but they're also seeing patterns and letting the patterns take over for them. And we think that's a good thing rather than a bad thing. It's not that they're stopped thinking, they're just, they're just— Christy: They're experiencing the moment that patterns start to help, that pattern recognition starts to become an aid in their ability to make predictions. All of a sudden you can feel it kick online. So if you said it in the context, then what happens is even in the mixed-number version or in the improper-number version, that students will then have a way of talking about that 12 fourths is equivalent to 3, and then you're going to see that whole-number diagonal sort of pop in, and then you'll see those other ones, even in the original version of it. Terry: Yeah, as we started to play around with this and talk with people, we started using the context of sandwiches, fourths of sandwiches. And so when they would start looking at that, the sandwiches gave them language around wholes. So the equivalence that they saw, they had language to talk about. That's 12 fourths of a sandwich, which would be 3 full sandwiches. And then we started using paper strips with the choral counts and putting paper strips on each piece so kids could see that when it fills up they can see a full sandwich. And so we get both equivalencies, we get language, we get connections between images, symbols, and context. Mike: One of the questions that I've been asking folks is: At the broadest level, regardless of the number being counted or whether it's a whole number or a rational number, what do you think the choral counting routine is good for? Christy: So I would say that I think of these routines, like a choral count or a number talk or other routines like that that you would be doing frequently in a classroom, they really serve as a way of building mathematical language. So they serve as a language routine. And then one of the things that's really important about it is that it's not just that there's skip-counting, but that count. So you're hearing the way that patterns happen in language, but they're seeing it at the same time. And then they're having chances, once that static set of representations on the board, those visuals of the numbers has been created and set up in this structured way, it's allowing them to unpack those things. So they get to first engage in language and hearing it in this multimodal way. So they hear it and they see it, but then they get to unpack it and they get to engage in language in this other way where they get to say, "Well, here's things that stand out to me." So they make these observations and they will do it using informal language. And then it's buying the teacher an opportunity then to not only highlight that, but then to also help formalize that language. So they might say, "Oh, I saw a column goes up by 5." And I would get to say, "Oh, so you're saying that you add each time to this column, and here's how a mathematician would write that." And we would write that with those symbols. And so now they're getting chances to see how their ideas are mathematical ideas and they're being expressed using the language and tools of math. "Here's the way you said it; here's what your brain was thinking about. And here's what that looks like when a mathematician writes it." So they're getting this chance to see this very deeply authentic way and just also buying this opportunity not only to do it for yourself, but then to take up ideas of others. "Oh, who else saw this column?" Or, "Do you think that we could extend that? Do you think it's anywhere else?" And they get to then immediately pick up that language and practice it and try it. So I look at these as a really important opportunity, not just for building curiosity around mathematics, but for building language. Mike: Let's shift a little bit to teacher moves, to teacher practice, which I think y'all were kind of already doing there when you were talking about opportunities. What are some of the teacher moves that you think are really critical to bringing choral counting with fractions particularly to life? Terry: I think just using the strips to help them visualize it, and it gave them some language. I think the context of sandwiches, or whatever it happens to be, gives them some ways to name what the unit is. We found starting with that runway, it really helps to have something that they can start to kind of take off and start the counting routine. We also found that the move where you ask them, "What do you notice? What patterns do you notice?," we really reserve for three and a half rows. So we try to go three full rows and a half and it gives everybody a chance to see something. If I go and do it too quick, I find that I don't get everybody participating in that, noticing as well, as doing three and a half rows. It just seems to be a magic part of the array is about three and a half rows in. Mike: I want to restate and mark a couple things that you said, Terry. One is this notion of a runway that you want to give kids. And that functions as a way to help them start to think about, again, "What might come next?" And then I really wanted to pause and talk about this idea of, you want to go at least three rows, or at least—is it three or three and a half? Terry: Three and a half. Christy: When you have three of something, then you can start to use patterns. You need at least those three for even to think there could be a pattern. So when you get those, at least three of them, and they have that pattern to do—and like Terry was saying, when you have a partial row, then what happens is those predictions can come from two directions. You could keep going in the row, so you could keep going horizontally, or you could come down a column. And so now it kind of invites people to do things in more than one way when you stop mid-row. Mike: So let me ask a follow-up question. When a teacher stops or pauses the count, what are some of the first things you'd love to see them do to spark some of the pattern recognition or the pattern seeking that you just talked about? Christy: Teacher moves? Mike: Yeah. Christy: OK. So we do get to work with preservice teachers all the time. So this is one of my favorite parts of this piece of it. So what do you do as a teacher that you want? So we're going to want an array up there that has enough, at least three of things in some different ways people can start to see some patterns. You can also, when you do one of these counts, you'll hear the moment—what Terry described earlier as "stop thinking." You can hear a moment where people, it just gets easier to start, the pattern starts to help you find what comes next, and you'll hear it. The voices will get louder and more confident as you do it. So you want a little of that. Once you're into that kind of space, then you can stop. You know because you've just heard them get a little more confident that their brains are going. So you're kind of looking for that moment. Then you're going to stop in there again partway through a row so that you've got a little bit of runway in both directions. So they can keep going horizontally, they can come down vertically. And you say, "OK," and you're going to give them now a moment to think. And so that stopping for a second before they just talk, creating space for people to formulate some language, to notice some things is really, really important. So we're going to create some thinking space, but we know there's some thinking happening, so you just give them a way to do it. Our favorite way to do it is to, instead of just doing a thumbs-up and thumbs-down in front of the chest, we just do a silent count at the chest rather than hands going up. We just keep those hands out of the air, and I say, "Give me a 1 at your chest"—so a silent number 1 right at your chest—"when you've noticed one thing. And if you notice two things, give me a 2. And if you notice three things, give me a 3." They will absolutely extrapolate from there. And you'll definitely see some very anxious person who definitely wants to say something with a 10 at their chest. But what you're doing at that moment is you're buying people time to think, and you're buying yourself as a teacher some insight into where they are. So you now get to look out and you can see who's kind of taking a while for that 1 to come up and who has immediately five things, and other things. And you can use that along with your knowledge of the students now to think about how you want to bring people into that discussion. Somebody with 10 things, they do not need to be the first person you call on. They are desperate to share something, and they will share something no matter when you call on them. So you want to use this information now to be able to get yourself some ideas of, like, "OK, I want to make sure that I'm creating equitable experiences, that I want to bring a lot of voices in." And so the first thing we do is we have now a sense of that because we just watched, we gave ourselves away into some of the thinking that's happening. And then we're going to partner that immediately with a turn and talk. So first they're going to think and then they're going to have a chance to practice that language in a partnership. And then, again, you're buying yourself a chance to listen into those conversations and to know that they have something to share. And to bring it in, I will pretty much always make that a warm call. I won't say, "Who wants to share?" I will say, "Terry or Mike, let's hear." And then I won't just say, "Terry, what was your idea?" I would say, "Terry, tell me something that either you or Mike shared that you noticed." So we'll give a choice. So now they've got a couple ways in. You know they just said something. So you're creating this space where you're really lowering the temperature of how nerve-racking it is to share something. They have something to say, and they have something to do. So I want all of those moves. And then I kind of alluded to it when we were doing the practice one, but the other one I really like is to have all-class gestures so that everyone constantly has a way they need to engage and listen. And so I like to use ones not just the "me too" gesture, but we do the "open mind" gesture as well so that everyone has one of the two. Either it's something that you were thinking or they've just opened your mind to a new idea. And it looks, we use it kind of like an open book at your forehead. So, the best way I can describe it to you, you put both hands at your forehead and you touch them like they're opening up, opening doors. And so everyone does one of those, right? And then as a teacher, you now have some more information because you could say, "Oh, Terry, you just said that was open mind. You hadn't noticed it. Well, tell us something different you noticed." So you get that choice of what you're doing. So you're going to use these things as a teacher to not just get ideas out but to really be able to pull people in ways they've sort of communicated something to you that they have something to share. So I love it for all the ways we get to practice these teacher moves that don't just then work in just this choral count, but that do a really great job in all these other spaces that we want to work on with students too, in terms of equitably and creating talk, orienting students to one another, asking them to listen to and build on each other's ideas. Terry: When you first start doing this, you want to just stop and listen. So I think some of my mistakes early on was trying to annotate too quickly. But I found that a really good teacher move is just to listen. And I get to listen when they're think-pair-sharing, I get a chance to listen when they're just thinking together, I get a chance to listen when they describe it to the whole class. And then I get to think about how I'm going to write and record what they said so that it amplifies what they're saying to the whole class. And that's the annotation piece. And getting better at annotating is practicing what you're going to write first and then they always say something a little different than what you anticipate, but you've already practiced. So you can get your colors down, you can get how you're going to write it without overlapping too much with your annotations. Mike: I think that feels like a really important point for someone who is listening to the podcast and thinking about their own practice. Because if I examine my own places where I sometimes jump before I need to, it often is to take in some ideas but maybe not enough and then start to immediately annotate. And I'm really drawn to this idea that there's something to, I want to listen enough to kind of hear the body of ideas that are coming out of the group before I get to annotation. Is that a fair kind of summary of the piece that you think is really important about that? Terry: Yes. And as I'm getting better with it, I'm listening more and then writing after I think I know what they're saying. And I check with them as I'm writing. Mike: So you started to already go to my next question, which is about annotation. I heard you mention color, so I'm curious: What are some of the ideas about annotation that you think are particularly important when you are doing it in the context of a choral count? Christy: Well, yeah, I think a choral count. So color helps just to distinguish different ideas. So that's a useful tool for that piece of it. What we typically want, people will notice patterns usually in lines. And so you're going to get vertical lines and horizontal lines, but you'll also get diagonals. That's usually where those will be. And they will also notice things that are recognizable. So like the 15, 30, 45 being a number sequence that is a well-known one is typically wouldn't going to be the first one we notice. Another one that happens along a diagonal, and the examples we gave will be 12, 24, 36, it comes on a diagonal. People will often notice it because it's there. So then what you want is you're going to want to draw in those lines that help draw students' eyes, other students' eyes, not the ones who are seeing it, but the ones who weren't seeing it to that space so they can start to see that pattern too. So you're going to use a little bit of lines or underlining that sort of thing. These definitely do over time get messier and messier as you add more stuff to them. So color helps just distinguish some of those pieces. And then what you want is to leave yourself some room to write things. So if you have fractions, for example, you're going to need some space between things because fractions take up a little bit more room to write. And you definitely want to be able to write "plus 15 fourths," not just, "plus 15." And so you need to make sure you're leaving yourself enough room and practicing and thinking. You also have to leave enough room for if you want to continue the count, because one of the beautiful things you get to do here is to make predictions once you've noticed patterns. And so you're going to probably want to ask at some point, "Well, what number do you think comes in some box further down the road?" So you need to leave yourself enough room then to continue that count to get there. So it's just some of the things you have to kind of think about as a teacher as you do it, and then as you annotate, so you're kind of thinking about trying to keep [the numbers] pretty straight so that those lines are available to students and then maybe drawing them in so students can see them. And then probably off to the side writing things like, if there's addition or multiplication sentences that are coming out of it, you probably want to leave yourself some room to be able to sometimes write those. In a fraction one, which Terry talked about a little bit, because equivalency is something that's available now where we can talk about, for example, the really common one that would come out in our example would be that 12 fourths is equivalent to 3 wholes. Somehow you're going to have to ask this question of, "Well, why is that? Where could we see it?" And so in that case, usually we would draw the picture of the sandwiches, which will be rectangles all cut up in the same way. So not like grilled cheese sandwiches in fourth, but like a subway sandwich in fourths. And then you're going to need some space to be able to draw those above it and below it. So again, you're kind of thinking about what's going to make this visible to students in a way that's meaningful to them. So you're going to need some space to be left for those things. What I find is that I typically end up having to write some things, and then sometimes after the new idea comes in, I might have to erase a little bit of what's there to make some more room for the writing. But I would say with fractions, it's going to be important to think about leaving enough space between, because you're probably going to need a little bit of pictures sometimes to help make sense of that equivalency. That's a really useful one. And leaving enough space for the notation itself, it takes a little bit of room. Mike: Every time I do a podcast, I get to this point where I say to the guest or guests, "We could probably talk for an hour or more, and we're out of time." So I want to extend the offer that I often share with guests, which is if someone wanted to keep learning about choral counting or more generally about some of the ideas about fractions that we're talking about, are there any particular resources that the two of you would recommend? Terry: We started our work with the Choral Counting & Counting Collections [https://www.routledge.com/Choral-Counting--Counting-Collections-Transforming-the-PreK-5-Math-Classroom/Franke-Kazemi-ChanTurrou/p/book/9781625311092] book by Megan Franke[, Elham Kazemi, and Angela Chan Turrou], and it really is transformational, both routines. Christy: And it has fractions and decimals and ideas in it too. So you can see it across many things. Well, it's just, even just big numbers, small numbers, all kinds of different things. So teachers at different grade levels could use it. The Teacher Education by Design [website], at tedd.org [http://tedd.org], has a beautiful unit on counting collections for teachers. So if you're interested in learning more about it, it has videos, it has planning guides, things like that to really help you get started. Terry: And we found you just have to do them. And so as we just started to do them, writing it on paper was really helpful. And then The Math Learning Center has an app that you can use—the Number Chart app [https://apps.mathlearningcenter.org/number-chart/]—and you can write [the choral counts] in so many different ways and check your timing out. And it's been a very helpful tool in preparing for quality choral counts with fractions and whole numbers. Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Christy and Terry, I want to thank you both so much for joining us. It has really just absolutely been a pleasure chatting with you both. Christy: So much fun getting to talk to you. Terry: Thank you. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 5 - Ramsey Merritt, Improving Students' Turn & Talk Experience

Ramsey Merritt, Improving Students' Turn & Talk Experience ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 5 Most educators know what a turn and talk is—but are your students excited to do them? In this episode, we put turn and talks under a microscope. We'll talk with Ramsey Merritt from the Harvard Graduate School of Education about ways to revamp and better scaffold turn and talks to ensure your students are having productive mathematical discussions. BIOGRAPHY Ramsey Merritt is a lecturer in education at Brandeis University and the director of leadership development for Reading (MA) Public Schools. He has taught and coached at every level of the U.S. school system in both public and independent schools from New York to California. Ramsey also runs an instructional leadership consulting firm, Instructional Success Partners, LLC. Prior to his career in education, he worked in a variety of roles at the New York Times. He is currently completing his doctorate in education leadership at Harvard Graduate School of Education. Ramsey's book, Diving Deeper with Upper Elementary Math [https://www.routledge.com/Diving-Deeper-with-Upper-Elementary-Math-Low-Prep-High-Reward-Challenging-Math-Enrichment-Activities-Grades-3-5/Star-Merritt/p/book/9781041137290], will be released in spring 2026. TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Ramsey. So great to have you on. Ramsey Merritt: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Mike: So turn and talk's been around for a while now, and I guess I'd call it ubiquitous at this point. When I visit classrooms, I see turn and talks happen often with quite mixed results. And I wanted to start with this question: At the broadest level, what's the promise of a turn and talk? When strategically done well, what's it good for? Ramsey: I think at the broadest level, we want students talking about their thinking and we also want them listening to other students' thinking and ideally being open to reflect, ask questions, and maybe even change their minds on their own thinking or add a new strategy to their thinking. That's at the broadest level. I think if we were to zoom in a little bit, I think turn and talks are great for idea generation. When you are entering a new concept or a new lesson or a new unit, I think they're great for comparing strategies. They're obviously great for building listening skills with the caveat that you put structures in place for them, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. And building critical-thinking and questioning skills as well. I think I've also seen turn and talks broadly categorized into engagement, and it's interesting when I read that because to me I think about engagement as the teacher's responsibility and what the teacher needs to do no matter what the pedagogical tool is. So no matter whether it's a turn and talk or something else, engagement is what the teacher needs to craft and create a moment. And I think a lot of what we'll probably talk about today is about crafting moments for the turn and talk. In other words, how to engage students in a turn and talk, but not that a turn and talk is automatically engagement. Mike: I love that, and I think the language that you've used around crafting is really important. And it gets to the heart of what I was excited about in this conversation because a turn and talk is a tool, but there is an art and a craft to designing its implementation that really can make or break the tool itself. Ramsey: Yeah. If we look back a little bit as to where turn and talk came from, I sort of tried to dig into the papers on this. And what I found was that it seems as if turn and talks may have been a sort of spinoff of the think-pair-share, which has been around a little bit longer. And what's interesting in looking into this is, I think that turn and talks were originally positioned as a sort of cousin of think-pair-share that can be more spontaneous and more in the moment. And I think what has happened is we've lost the "think" part. So we've run with it, and we've said, "This is great," but we forgot that students still need time to think before they turn and talk. And so what I see a lot is, it gets to be somewhat too spontaneous, and certain students are not prepared to just jump into conversations. And we have to take a step back and sort of think about that. Mike: That really leads into my next question quite well because I have to confess that when I've attended presentations, there are points in time when I've been asked to turn and talk when I can tell you I had not a lot of interest nor a lot of clarity about what I should do. And then there were other points where I couldn't wait to start that conversation. And I think this is the craft and it's also the place where we should probably think about, "What are the pitfalls that can derail or have a turn and talk kind of lose the value that's possible?" How would you talk about that? Ramsey: Yeah, it is funny that we as adults have that reaction when people say, "Turn and talk." The three big ones that I see the most, and I should sort of say here, I've probably been in 75 to 100 buildings and triple or quadruple that for classrooms. So I've seen a lot of turn and talks, just like you said. And the three big ones for me, I'll start with the one that I see less frequently but still see it enough to cringe and want to tell you about it. And it's what I call the "stall" turn and talk. So it's where teachers will sometimes use it to buy themselves a little time. I have literally heard teachers say something along the lines of, "OK, turn and talk to your neighbor while I go grab something off the printer." But the two biggest ones I think lead to turn and talk failure are a lack of specificity. And in that same vein too, what are you actually asking them to discuss? So there's a bit of vagueness in the prompting, so that's one of the big ones. The other big one for me is, and it seems so simple, and I think most elementary teachers are very good at using an engaging voice. They've learned what tone does for students and what signals tone sends to them about, "Is now the time to engage? Should I be excited?" But I so often see the turn and talk launched unenthusiastically, and that leads to an engagement deficit. And that's what you're starting out with if you don't have a good launch: Students are already sort of against you because you haven't made them excited to talk. Mike: I mean those things resonate. And I have to say there are some of them that I cringe because I've been guilty of doing, definitely the first thing when I've been unprepared. But I think these two that you just shared, they really go to this question of how intentionally I am thinking about building that sense of engagement and also digging into the features that make a turn and talk effective and engaging. So let's talk about the features that make turn and talks effective and engaging for students. I've heard you talk about the importance of picking the right moment for a turn and talk. So what's that mean? Ramsey: So for me, I break it down into three key elements. And one of them, as you say, is the timing. And this might actually be the most important element, and it goes back to the origin story, is: If you ask a question, and say you haven't planned a turn and talk, but you ask a question to a whole group and you see 12 hands shoot up, that is an ideal moment for a turn and talk. You automatically know that students are interested in this topic. So I think that's the sort of origin story, is: Instead of whipping around the room and asking all 12 students—because especially at the elementary level, if students don't get their chance to share, they are very disappointed. So I've also seen these moments drag out far too long. So it's kind of a good way to get everyone's voice heard. Maybe they're not saying it out to the whole group, but they get to have everyone's voice heard. And also you're buying into the engagement that's already there. So that would be the more spontaneous version, but you can plan in your lesson planning to time a turn and talk at a specific moment if you know your students well enough that you know can get them engaged in. And so that leads to one of the other points is the launch itself. So then you're really thinking about, "OK, I think this could be an interesting moment for students. Let me think a little bit deeper about what the hook is." Almost every teacher knows what a hook is, but they typically think about the hook at the very top of their lesson. And they don't necessarily think about, "How do I hook students in to every part of my lesson?" And maybe it's not a full 1-minute launch, maybe it's not a full hook, but you've got to reengage students, especially now in this day and time, we're seeing students with increasingly smaller attention spans. So it's important to think about how you're launching every single piece of your lesson. And then the third one, which goes against that origin story that I may or may not even be right about, but it goes against that sort of spontaneous nature of turn and talks, is: I think the best turn and talks are usually planned out in advance. So for me it's planning, timing, and launching. Those are my elements to success when I'm coaching teachers on doing a turn and talk. Mike: Another question that I wanted to unpack is: Talk about what. The turn and talk is a vehicle, but there's also content, right? So I'm wondering about that. And then I'm also wondering are there prompts or particular types of questions that educators can use that are more interesting and engaging, and they help draw students in and build that engagement experience you were talking about? Ramsey: Yeah, and it's funny you say, "Talk about what" because that's actually feedback that I've given to teachers, when I say, "How did that go for you?" And they go, "Well, it went OK." And I say, "Well, what did you ask them to talk about? Talk about what is important to think about in that planning process." So I hate to throw something big out there, but I would actually argue that at this point, we have seen the turn and talk sort of devolve into something that is stigmatized that often is vague. So what if instead of calling everything a turn and talk, you had specific types of turn and talks in your classroom. And these would take a little time to routinize; students would have to get used to them. But one idea I had is: What if you just called one "pick a side"? Pick a side, it tells the students right away what they need to do; it's extremely specific. So you're giving them one or two or—well not one, you're giving them two or three strategies, and you're telling them, "You have to pick one of these. And you're going to be explaining to your partner your rationale as to why you think that strategy works best or most efficiently." Or maybe it's an error analysis kind of thing. Maybe you plant one n as wrong, one n as right. And then you still ask them, "Pick a side here. Who do you agree with?" And then you also get a check for understanding because the students around the room who are picking the wrong one, you're picking up data on what they understand about the topic. Another one you can do is, you could just call it "justify your thinking." Justify your thinking. So that just simply says to them, "I have to explain to the person next to me why I'm thinking the way that I'm thinking about this prompt or this problem." So that could also be a "help their thinking." So maybe you put up someone's thinking on the board that is half baked, and now their job is to help that person. So that's a sort of deeper knowledge kind of thing too. And then the last one is we can turn the "What do you notice? What do you wonder?" [activity] into a routine that is very similar to a turn and talk, where both people have an opportunity to share what they're wondering or what they're noticing. But I think no matter what you call them, no matter how you routinize them, I think it's important to be more specific than "turn and talk." Mike: You use the word routinized. It's making me think a lot about why we find routines to have value, right? Because once you teach a particular routine, kids know what it is to do said routine. They know what it is to show up when you're doing Which one doesn't belong? They know the role that they play. And I think part of what really jumps out is: If you had a series of more granular turn and talk experiences that you were trying to cultivate, kids actually have a sense of what it is to do a turn and talk if you are helping thinking, or if you are agreeing or disagreeing, or whatever the choice might be. Ramsey: That's right. For me, everything, even when I'm working with middle and high school teachers, I say, "The more that you can put structures in place that remove those sort of barriers for thinking, the better off you're going to be." And so we could talk more too about how to differentiate and scaffold turn and talk. Sometimes that gets forgotten as well. But I think the other piece I would love to point out here is around—you're right, turn and talk is so ubiquitous. And what that means, what I've seen in schools, if I've seen, I'll go into a school and I might watch four different teachers teach the same lesson and the turn and talk will look and feel differently in each room. So the other advantage to being more specific is that if a student—let's say they went to, because even in an elementary school you might go to a specialist, you might go to art class. And that teacher might use a turn and talk. And what happens is they sort of get this general idea around the turn and talk and then they come into your room with whatever the turn and talk was in the last class or however the teacher used it last year. So to me there's also a benefit in personalizing it to your room as well so that you can get rid of some of that stigma if it wasn't going well for the student before, especially if you then go in and scaffold it. Mike: Let's talk a little bit about those scaffolds and maybe dig in a little bit deeper to some of the different kinds of routinized turn and talks. I'm wondering if you wanted to unpack anything in particular that you think would really be important for a teacher to think about as they're trying to take up the ideas that we've been discussing. Ramsey: And one of the simplest ones to implement is the Partner A, Partner B routine. I think maybe many of your listeners will be like, "Yeah, I use that." But one of the pieces that's really important there is that you really hold students accountable to honoring Partner A's time. So when Partner A is speaking, Partner B needs to be trying to make—you know, not everybody can do the eye contact thing, but there are some things that you can recommend and suggest for them. Maybe they have something to take notes on. So this could be having whiteboards at your rug, it could be clipboards, it could be that they have a turn and talk thought-catcher notebook or folder. And it doesn't matter what it is, but not everyone has the same processing skills. So we think about turn and talk sometimes as spontaneous, but we're forgetting that 12 students raised their hand and they were eager. What about the other 12 or 15? If they didn't raise their hand, it could be that they're shy but they have something on their mind. But it also could be that you just threw out a prompt and they haven't fully processed it yet. We know kids process things at different times and at different speeds. So incorporating in that—maybe it's even a minute up top. Everybody's taking their silent and solo minute to think about this prompt. Then Partner A is going to go. It's about equity and voice across the room. It's about encouraging listening, it's about giving think time. Mike: Well, I want to stop and mark a couple things. What occurs to me is that in some ways a podcast interview like this is one long turn and talk in the sense that you and I are both listening and talking with one another. And as you were talking, one of the things I realized is I didn't have a piece of paper with me. And what you were saying really connects deeply because even if it's just jotting down a word or two to help me remember that was a salient point or this is something that I want to follow up on, that's really critical. Otherwise, it really can feel like it can evaporate and then you're left not being able to explore something that might've been really important. I think the other thing that jumps out is the way that this notion of having a notepad or something to jot is actually a way to not necessarily just privilege spoken communication. That if I'm going to process or if I'm going to try to participate, having something like that might actually open up space for a kid whose favorite thing to do isn't to talk and process as they're talking. Does that make sense? Ramsey: Totally. I had a student in a program I was working with this summer who was 13 years old but was selectively mute. And the student teachers who were working in this room wanted to still be able to do a turn and talk. And they had her still partner with people, but she wrote down sentences and she literally held up her whiteboard and then the other student responded to the sentence that she wrote down on her whiteboard. So that's real. And to your other point about being able to jot down so you can remember—yeah, we have to remember we're talking about six-, seven-, eight-, nine-year olds. We're fully functioning adults and we still need to jot things down. So imagine when your brain is not even fully developed. We can't expect them to remember something from when they haven't been allowed to interrupt the other. And so I think going on now what you're saying is, that then makes me think about the Partner A, Partner B thing could also sort of tamper down the excitement a little bit if you make another student wait. So you also have to think about maybe that time in between, you might need to reengage. That's my own thinking right now, evolving as we're talking. Mike: So in some ways this is a nice segue to something else that you really made me think about. When we were preparing for this interview, much of what I was thinking about is the role of the teacher in finding the moment, as you said, where you can build excitement and build engagement, or thinking about the kind of prompts that have a specificity and how that could impact the substance of what kids are talking about. But what really jumped out from our conversation is that there's also a receptive side of turn and talk, meaning that there are people who are talking, but we also don't want the other person to just be passive. What does it look like to support the listening side of turn and talk? And I would love it if you would talk about the kinds of things you think it's important for educators to think about when they're thinking about that side of turn and talk. Ramsey: I would say don't forget about sentence starters that have to do with listening. So often when we're scaffolding, we're thinking about, "How do I get them to share out? How do I get them to be able to address this prompt?" But one of the easiest scaffolds that I've heard for listening—and it works very, very well—is, "What I heard you say is, blank." And so then the receptive student knows that a—tells them they have to be listening pretty carefully because they're about to be asked to repeat what the other person said. And this is an age-old elementary school sort of piece of pedagogy, is a call and response situation. But then we want to give them a stem that allows them maybe to ask a question. So it's, "What I heard you say was, blank. What I'm wondering is, blank." So that takes it to the next thinking level. But again, it's about being really specific and very intentional with your students and saying, "When it's Partner B's turn, you must lead with, 'What I heard you say is,' and only then can you get to your thinking or asking questions." Mike: That's huge. I think particularly when you think about the fact that there may be status issues between Partner A and Partner B. If Partner A is seen as or sees themselves as someone who's good at math and that's less true for Partner B, the likelihood of actually listening in a productive way seems like it's in danger at the very least. So I see these as tools that really do, one, build a level of accountability responsibility, but also level the playing field when it comes to things like status between two students. Ramsey: I would agree with that, yeah. I think, too, we always want to be mixing our groups. I think sometimes you get, when I think about those sort of people or those students who—you can walk into any classroom and you right away can look around the room, if you've seen enough math teaching, you can see the students who have the most confidence in math. So another piece to sort of leveling that field is making sure that your turn and talks are not always built on skill or high-level conceptual understanding. So that's where it might be helpful to have a more low-floor task, like a What do you notice? What do you wonder? But using the turn and talk routine of that. So it gives people more of a chance to get involved even when they don't have the highest level. It's kind of like the same idea with a Which one doesn't belong? [task] or a typical number talk. But, so you as the teachers have to be thinking about, "OK, yesterday we did one that was comparing two people's strategies, and I know that some of my students didn't quite understand either one of them. So today, in order to rebuild some of that confidence, I might do a version of a turn and talk that is much more open to different kinds of thinking." Mike: You started to go there in this last conversation we had about supporting the receptive side of turn and talk. I did want to ask if we can go a little bit deeper and think about tools like anchor charts. And you already mentioned sentence prompts, but sentence frames. To what extent do you feel like those can be helpful in building the kinds of habits we're talking about, and do you have any thoughts about those or any other resources that you think are important scaffolds? Ramsey: Yeah. I have seen some really, really wonderful teachers bring in such a simple way of activating an anchor chart and that is especially—it's easier to do an inquiry-based learning, but I think you can do it in any kind of classroom—is, when a student presents their thinking early on in a unit, and let's say we're talking about comparing fractions. And they say, "This is how I compared fractions," and you're annotating and you're charting it up for them as the teacher, you can call that strategy, "Maya's strategy." And so now it has a little bit more stickiness for both the students and for you. Now you know that there's a specific mathematical name for that strategy, but the students don't necessarily need to know that. You could put it in parentheses if you want. But I have seen that be really effective, and I've actually heard other students go, "I'm going to use Maya's strategy for this one," and able to then look and reference it. I think what happens sometimes with the anchor charts is, we still live in a sort of Pinterest world, and some people want those anchor charts to be beautiful, but they're not actually useful because it was drawn up perfectly and it's lovely and it's pretty, but the students don't have a real connection to it. So the other piece to that is the cocreation of the anchor chart. So it's not just naming the student; it's also going through it step by step. Maybe they're leading through it, maybe you're guiding it. Maybe you're asking probing questions. Maybe you throw in a turn and talk in the middle of that sort of exploration. And then students have a connection to that piece of paper. Anchor charts that have been created during your prep period, I guarantee you will have very little effect. So that's how I feel about those. I also love, I call them like mini anchor charts, but they sit on tables. In recent years I've seen more and more, especially in elementary classrooms—and I've encouraged them at the middle school and the high school level—of putting in a little, I don't really know the best way to describe it for listeners, but it sits on the tabletop, and it's almost like a placard holder. And inside of that you put a mini version of an anchor chart that sits at the students' tables. So if you're doing turn and talks at their desks, and they're sitting in desks of four, and that's right there in front of them with some sentence starters or maybe your very specific routines—pick a side!—and then you have the three steps to picking aside underneath. If that's sitting on the table right in front of them, they are much more likely to reference it than if it's on the wall across the room. That gets a little trickier if you're down at the rug if you're doing turn and talks down at the rug, but hey, you can get a slightly bigger one and stick a few down on the rug around them too if you really need to. Mike: I love that. That seems powerful and yet imminently practical. Ramsey: I've seen it work. Mike: Well, this happens to me every time I do a podcast. I have a lovely conversation, and we get close to the end of it, and I find myself asking: For listeners, what recommendations do you have for people who either want to learn more or would like to get started implementing some of the ideas we discussed today? Ramsey: Sure. I mean the biggest one that I tell both new teachers and veterans when you're looking to sort of improve on your practice is to go watch someone else teach. So it's as simple as asking a colleague, "Hey, do you know anybody who does this really well?" In fact, I've led some [professional development trainings] at schools where I've said, "Who in the room is great at this?" And a few people will throw their hands up, and I go, "Great. Instead of me explaining it, I'm going to have you tell us why you're so successful at that." So the easiest one is to go watch someone who has this down. But for some of the things that I've mentioned, I would think about not biting off too much. So if you are someone who your turn and talks, you readily admit that they're not specific, they're fully routinized, and they don't go well for you, I would not recommend putting in four new routines tomorrow, the A/B partner thing, and making the anchor charts for the tables all at once. What I always say is try one thing and also be transparent with the students. It goes a really long way, even with seven-year-olds, when you say, "Alright guys, we're going to do a new version of the turn and talk today because I've noticed that some of you have not been able to share as much as I would like you to. So we're going to try this, which is for me, I hope it allows both people to share and afterwards you can let me know how that felt." Students really appreciate that gesture, and I think that's really important if you are going to try something new to sort of be transparent about it. Oftentimes when teachers implement something new, it can feel like, not a punishment, but it's almost like a, "Ooh, why is she changing this up on us?" So letting them know also creates a warmer space too, and it shows them that you're learning, you're growing. Mike: I love that, and I think that's a great place to stop. Ramsey, thank you so much. It has really been a pleasure talking with you. Ramsey: Thank you. Like you said, I could do it all day, so I really appreciate it. I wish everyone out there well, and thanks again. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 4 - Pam Harris, Exploring the Power & Purpose of Number Strings

Pam Harris, Exploring the Power & Purpose of Number Strings ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 4 I've struggled when I have a new strategy I want my students to consider and despite my best efforts, it just doesn't surface organically. While I didn't want to just tell my students what to do, I wasn't sure how to move forward. Then I discovered number strings. Today, we're talking with Pam Harris about the ways number strings enable teachers to introduce new strategies while maintaining opportunities for students to discover important relationships. BIOGRAPHY Pam Harris, founder and CEO of Math is Figure-out-able™, is a mom, a former high school math teacher, a university lecturer, an author, and a mathematics teacher educator. Pam believes real math is thinking mathematically, not just mimicking what a teacher does. Pam helps leaders and teachers to make the shift that supports students to learn real math. RESOURCES Young Mathematicians at Work [https://www.heinemann.com/products/e03385.aspx] by Catherine Fosnot and Maarten Dolk Procedural fluency in mathematics: Reasoning and decision-making, not rote application of procedures position [https://www.nctm.org/Standards-and-Positions/Position-Statements/Procedural-Fluency-in-Mathematics/] by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics Bridges number string example [https://educate.mathlearningcenter.org/pdf/12698/28#page=28] from Grade 5, Unit 3, Module 1, Session 1 (BES login required) Developing Mathematical Reasoning: Avoiding the Trap of Algorithms [https://www.corwin.com/books/dmr-289132?srsltid=AfmBOorJH-HVq1ibguASkTiA-ycE_iaO1cpFQE38SGF1k4tsJyMUNhF2] by Pamela Weber Harris and Cameron Harris Math is Figure-out-able!™ Problem Strings [http://mathisfigureoutable.com/ps] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Pam. I'm really excited to talk with you today. Pam Harris: Thanks, Mike. I'm super glad to be on. Thanks for having me. Mike: Absolutely. So before we jump in, I want to offer a quick note to listeners. The routine we're going to talk about today goes by several different names in the field. Some folks, including Pam, refer to this routine as "problem strings," and other folks, including some folks at The Math Learning Center, refer to them as "number strings." For the sake of consistency, we'll use the term "strings" during our conversation today. And Pam, with that said, I'm wondering if for listeners, without prior knowledge, could you briefly describe strings? How are they designed? How are they intended to work? Pam: Yeah, if I could tell you just a little of my history. When I was a secondary math teacher and I dove into research, I got really curious: How can we do the mental actions that I was seeing my son and other people use that weren't the remote memorizing and mimicking I'd gotten used to? I ran into the work of Cathy Fosnot and Maarten Dolk, and [their book] Young Mathematicians at Work, and they had pulled from the Netherlands strings. They called them "strings." And they were a series of problems that were in a certain order. The order mattered, the relationship between the problems mattered, and maybe the most important part that I saw was I saw students thinking about the problems and using what they learned and saw and heard from their classmates in one problem, starting to let that impact their work on the next problem. And then they would see that thinking made visible and the conversation between it and then it would impact how they thought about the next problem. And as I saw those students literally learn before my eyes, I was like, "This is unbelievable!" And honestly, at the very beginning, I didn't really even parse out what was different between maybe one of Fosnot's rich tasks versus her strings versus just a conversation with students. I was just so enthralled with the learning because what I was seeing were the kind of mental actions that I was intrigued with. I was seeing them not only happen live but grow live, develop, like they were getting stronger and more sophisticated because of the series of the order the problems were in, because of that sequence of problems. That was unbelievable. And I was so excited about that that I began to dive in and get more clear on: What is a string of problems? The reason I call them "problem strings" is I'm K–12. So I will have data strings and geometry strings and—pick one—trig strings, like strings with functions in algebra. But for the purposes of this podcast, there's strings of problems with numbers in them. Mike: So I have a question, but I think I just want to make an observation first. The way you described that moment where students are taking advantage of the things that they made sense of in one problem and then the next part of the string offers them the opportunity to use that and to see a set of relationships. I vividly remember the first time I watched someone facilitate a string and feeling that same way, of this routine really offers kids an opportunity to take what they've made sense of and immediately apply it. And I think that is something that I cannot say about all the routines that I've seen, but it was really so clear. I just really resonate with that experience of, what will this do for children? Pam: Yeah, and if I can offer an additional word in there, it influences their work. We're taking the major relationships, the major mathematical strategies, and we're high-dosing kids with them. So we give them a problem, maybe a problem or two, that has a major relationship involved. And then, like you said, we give them the next one, and now they can notice the pattern, what they learned in the first one or the first couple, and they can let it influence. They have the opportunity for it to nudge them to go, "Hmm. Well, I saw what just happened there. I wonder if it could be useful here. I'm going to tinker with that. I'm going to play with that relationship a little bit." And then we do it again. So in a way, we're taking the relationships that I think, for whatever reason, some of us can wander through life and we could run into the mathematical patterns that are all around us in the low dose that they are all around us, but many of us don't pick up on that low dose and connect them and make relationships and then let it influence when we do another problem. We need a higher dose. I needed a higher dose of those major patterns. I think most kids do. Problem strings or number strings are so brilliant because of that sequence and the way that the problems are purposely one after the other. Give students the opportunity to, like you said, apply what they've been learning instantly [snaps]. And then not just then, but on the next problem and then sometimes in a particular structure we might then say, "Mm, based on what you've been seeing, what could you do on this last problem?" And we might make that last problem even a little bit further away from the pattern, a little bit more sophisticated, a little more difficult, a little less lockstep, a little bit more where they have to think outside the box but still could apply that important relationship. Mike: So I have two thoughts, Pam, as I listen to you talk. One is that for both of us, there's a really clear payoff for children that we've seen in the way that strings are designed and the way that teachers can use them to influence students' thinking and also help kids build a recognition or high-dose a set of relationships that are really important. The interesting thing is, I taught kindergarten through second grade for most of my teaching career, and you've run the gamut. You've done this in middle school and high school. So I think one of the things that might be helpful is to share a few examples of what a string could look like at a couple different grade levels. Are you OK to share a few? Pam: You bet. Can I tack on one quick thing before I do? Mike: Absolutely. Pam: You mentioned that the payoff is huge for children. I'm going to also suggest that one of the things that makes strings really unique and powerful in teaching is the payoff for adults. Because let's just be clear, most of us—now, not all, but most of us, I think—had a similar experience to me that we were in classrooms where the teacher said, "Do this thing." That's the definition of math is for you to rote memorize these disconnected facts and mimic these procedures. And for whatever reason, many of us just believed that and we did it. Some people didn't. Some of us played with relationships and everything. Regardless, we all kind of had the same learning experience where we may have taken at different places, but we still saw the teacher say, "Do these things. Rote memorize. Mimic." And so as we now say to ourselves, "Whoa, I've just seen how cool this can be for students, and we want to affect our practice." We want to take what we do, do something—we now believe this could be really helpful, like you said, for children, but doing that's not trivial. But strings make it easier. Strings are, I think, a fantastic differentiated kind of task for teachers because a teacher who's very new to thinking and using relationships and teaching math a different way than they were taught can dive in and do a problem string. Learn right along with your students. A veteran teacher, an expert teacher who's really working on their teacher moves and really owns the landscape of learning and all the things still uses problem strings because they're so powerful. Like, anybody across the gamut can use strings—I just said problem strings, sorry—number strengths—[laughs] strings, all of us no matter where we are in our teaching journey can get a lot out of strings. Mike: So with all that said, let's jump in. Let's talk about some examples across the elementary span. Pam: Nice. So I'm going to take a young learner, not our youngest, but a young learner. I might ask a question like, "What is 8 plus 10?" And then if they're super young learners, I expect some students might know that 10 plus a single digit is a teen, but I might expect many of the students to actually say "8, 9, 10, 11, 12," or "10, 11," and they might count by ones given—maybe from the larger, maybe from the whatever. But anyway, we're going to kind of do that. I'm going to get that answer from them. I'm going to write on the board, "8 plus 10 is 18," and then I would have done some number line work before this, but then I'm going to represent on the board: 8 plus 10, jump of 10, that's 18. And then the next problem's going to be something like 8 plus 9. And I'm going to say, "Go ahead and solve it any way you want, but I wonder—maybe you could use the first problem, maybe not." I'm just going to lightly suggest that you consider what's on the board. Let them do whatever they do. I'm going to expect some students to still be counting. Some students are going to be like, "Oh, well I can think about 9 plus 8 counting by ones." I think by 8—"maybe I can think about 8 plus 8. Maybe I can think about 9 plus 9." Some students are going to be using relationships, some are counting. Kids are over the map. When I get an answer, they're all saying, like, 17. Then I'm going to say, "Did anybody use the first problem to help? You didn't have to, but did anybody?" Then I'm going to grab that kid. And if no one did, I'm going to say, "Could you?" and pause. Now, if no one sparks at that moment, then I'm not going to make a big deal of it. I'll just go, "Hmm, OK, alright," and I'll do the next problem. And the next problem might be something like, "What's 5 plus 10?" Again, same thing, we're going to get 15. I'm going to draw it on the board. Oh, I should have mentioned: When we got to the 8 plus 9, right underneath that 8, jump, 10 land on 18, I'm going to draw an 8 jump 9, shorter jump. I'm going to have these lined up, land on the 17. Then I might just step back and go, "Hmm. Like 17, that's almost where the 18 was." Now if kids have noticed, if somebody used that first problem, then I'm going to say, "Well, tell us about that." "Well, miss, we added 10 and that was 18, but now we're adding 1 less, so it's got to be 1 less." And we go, "Well, is 17 one less than 18? Huh, sure enough." Then I give the next set of problems. That might be 5 plus 10 and then 5 plus 9, and then I might do 7 plus 10. Maybe I'll do 9 next. 9 plus 10 and then 9 plus 9. Then I might end that string. The next problem, the last problem might be, "What is 7 plus 9?" Now notice I didn't give the helper. So in this case I might go, "Hey, I've kind of gave you plus 10. A lot of you use that to do plus 9. I gave you plus 10. Some of you use that to do plus 9, I gave you plus 10. Some of you used that plus 9. For this one, I'm not giving you a helper. I wonder if you could come up with your own helper." Now brilliantly, what we've done is say to students, "You've been using what I have up here, or not, but could you actually think, 'What is the pattern that's happening?' and create your own helper?" Now that's meta. Right? Now we're thinking about our thinking. I'm encouraging that pattern recognition in a different way. I'm asking kids, "What would you create?" We're going to share that helper. I'm not even having them solve the problem. They're just creating that helper and then we can move from there. So that's an example of a young string that actually can grow up. So now I can be in a second grade class and I could ask a similar [question]: "Could you use something that's adding a bit too much to back up?" But I could do that with bigger numbers. So I could start with that 8 plus 10, 8 plus 9, but then the next pair might be 34 plus 10, 34 plus 9. But then the next pair might be 48 plus 20 and 48 plus 19. And the last problem of that string might be something like 26 plus 18. Mike: So in those cases, there's this mental scaffolding that you're creating. And I just want to mark this. I have a good friend who used to tell me that part of teaching mathematics is you can lead the horse to water, you can show them the water, they can look at it, but darn it, do not push their head in the water. And I think what he meant by that is "You can't force it," right? But you're not doing that with a string. You're creating a set of opportunities for kids to notice. You're doing all kinds of implicit things to make structure available for kids to attend to—and yet you're still allowing them the ability to use the strategies that they have. We might really want them to notice that, and that's beautiful about a string, but you're not forcing. And I think it's worth saying that because I could imagine that's a place where folks might have questions, like, "If the kids don't do the thing that I'm hoping that they would do, what should I do?" Pam: Yeah, that's a great question. Let me give you another example. And in that example I'll talk about that. So especially as the kids get older, I'm going to use the same kind of relationship. It's maybe easier for people to hang on to if I stay with the same sort of relationship. So I might say, "Hey everybody. 7 times 8. That's a fact I'm noticing most of us just don't have [snaps] at our fingertips. Let's just work on that. What do you know?" I might get a couple of strategies for kids to think about 7 times 8. We all agree it's 56. Then I might say, "What's 70 times 8?" And then let kids think about that. Now, this would be the first time I do that, but if we've dealt with scaling times 10 at all, if I have 10 times the number of whatever the things is, then often kids will say, "Well, I've got 10 times 7 is 70, so then 10 times 56 is 560." And then the next problem might be, "I wonder if you could think about 69 times 8. If we've got 70 eights, can I use that to help me think about 69 eights?" And I'm saying that in a very specific way to help ping on prior knowledge. So then I might do something similar. Well, let's pick another often missed facts, I don't know, 6 times 9. And then we could share some strategies on how kids are thinking about that. We all agree it's 54. And then I might say, "Well, could you think about 6 times 90?" I'm going to talk about scaling up again. So that would be 540. Now I'm going really fast. But then I might say, "Could we use that to help us think about 6 times 89?" I don't know if you noticed, but I sort of swapped. I'm not thinking about 90 sixes to 89 sixes. Now I'm thinking about 6 nineties to help me think about 6 eighty-nines. So that's a little bit of a—we have to decide how we're going to deal with that. I'll kind of mess around with that. And then I might have what we call that clunker problem at the end. "Notice that I've had a helper: 7 times 8, 70 times 8. A lot of you use that to help you think about 69 times 8. Then I had a helper: 6 times 9, 6 times 90. A lot of you use that to help you think about 6 times 89. What if I don't give you those helpers? What if I had something like"—now I'm making this up off the cuff here, like—"9 times 69. 9 times 69. Could you use relationships we just did?" Now notice, Mike, I might've had kids solving all those problems using an algorithm. They might've been punching their calculator, but now I'm asking the question, "Could you come up with these helper problems?" Notice how I'm now inviting you into a different space. It's not about getting an answer. I'm inviting you into, "What are the patterns that we've been establishing here?" And so what would be those two problems that would be like the patterns we've just been using? That's almost like saying when you're out in the world and you hit a problem, could you say to yourself, "Hmm, I don't know that one, but what do I know? What do I know that could help me get there?" And that's math-ing. Mike: So, you could have had a kid say, "Well, I'm not sure about how—I don't know the answer to that, but I could do 9 times 60, right?" Or "I could do 10 times"—I'm thinking—"10 times 69." Correct? Pam: Yes, yes. In fact, when I gave that clunker problem, 9 times 69, I said to myself, "Oh, I shouldn't have said 9 because now you could go either direction." You could either "over" either way. To find 9 I can do 10, or to find 69 I can do 70. And then I thought, "Ah, we'll go with it because you can go either way." So I might want to focus it, but I might not. And this is a moment where a novice could just throw it out there and then almost be surprised. "Whoa, they could go either direction." And an expert could plan, and be like, "Is this the moment where I want lots of different ways to go? Or do I want to focus, narrow it a little bit more, be a little bit more explicit?" It's not that I'm telling kids, but I'm having an explicit goal. So I'm maybe narrowing the field a little bit. And maybe the problem could have been 7 times 69, then I wouldn't have gotten that other "over," not the 10 to get 9. Does that make sense? Mike: It absolutely does. What you really have me thinking about is NCTM's [National Council of Teachers of Mathematics'] definition of "fluency," which is "accuracy, efficiency, and flexibility." And the flexibility that I hear coming out of the kinds of things that kids might do with a string, it's exciting to imagine that that's one of the outcomes you could get from engaging with strings. Pam: Absolutely. Because if you're stuck teaching memorizing algorithms, there's no flexibility, like none, like zilch. But if you're doing strings like this, kids have a brilliant flexibility. And one of the conversations I'd want to have here, Mike, is if a kid came up with 10 times 69 to help with 9 times 69, and a different kid came up with 9 times 70 to help with 9 times 69, I would want to just have a brief conversation: "Which one of those do you like better, class, and why?" Not that one is better than the other, but just to have the comparison conversation. So the kids go, "Huh, I have access to both of those. Well, I wonder when I'm walking down the street, I have to answer that one: Which one do I want my brain to gravitate towards next time?" And that's mathematical behavior. That's mathematical disposition to do one of the strands of proficiency. We want that productive disposition where kids are thinking to themselves, "I own relationships. I just got to pick a good one here to—what's the best one I could find here?" And try that one, then try that one. "Ah, I'll go with this one today." Mike: I love that. As we were talking, I wanted to ask you about the design of the string, and you started to use some language like "helper problems" and "the clunker." And I think that's really the nod to the kinds of features that you would want to design into a string. Could you talk about either a teacher who's designing their own string—what are some of the features?—or a teacher who's looking at a string that they might find in a book that you've written or that they might find in, say, the Bridges curriculum? What are some of the different problems along the way that really kind of inform the structure? Pam: So you might find it interesting that over time, we've identified that there's at least five major structures to strings, and the one that I just did with you is kind of the easiest one to facilitate. It's the easiest one to understand where it's going, and it's the helper-clunker structure. So the helper-clunker structure is all about, "I'm going to give you a helper problem that we expect all kids can kind of hang on." They have some facility with, enough that everybody has access to. Then we give you a clunker that you could use that helper to inform how you could solve that clunker problem. In the first string I did with you, I did a helper, clunker, helper, clunker, helper, clunker, clunker. And the second one we did, I did helper, helper, clunker, helper, helper, clunker, clunker. So you can mix and match kind of helpers and clunkers in that, but there are other major structures of strings. If you're new to strings, I would dive in and do a lot of helper-clunker strings first. But I would also suggest—I didn't create my own strings for a long time. I did prewritten [ones by] Cathy Fosnot from the Netherlands, from the Freudenthal Institute. I was doing their strings to get a feel for the mathematical relationships for the structure of a string. I would watch videos of teachers doing it so I could get an idea of, "Oh, that move right there made all the difference. I see how you just invited kids in, not demand what they do." The idea of when to have paper and pencil and when not, and just lots of different things can come up that if you're having to write the string as well, create the string, that could feel insurmountable. So I would invite anybody out listening that's like, "Whoa, this seems kind of complicated," feel free to facilitate someone else's prewritten strings. Now I like mine. I think mine are pretty good. I think Bridges has some pretty good ones. [https://educate.mathlearningcenter.org/pdf/12698/28#page=28] But I think you'd really gain a lot from facilitating prewritten strings. Can I make one quick differentiation that I'm running into more and more? So I have had some sharp people say to me, "Hey, sometimes you have extra problems in your string. Why do you have extra problems in your string?" And I'll say—well, at first I said, "What do you mean?" Because I didn't know what they were talking about. Are you telling me my string's bad? Why are you dogging my string? But what they meant was, they thought a string was the process a kid—or the steps, the relationships a kid used to solve the last problem. Does that make sense? Mike: It does. Pam: And they were like, "You did a lot of work to just get that one answer down there." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. A problem string or a number string, a string is an instructional routine. It is a lesson structure. It's a way of teaching. It's not a record of the relationships a kid used to solve a problem." In fact, a teacher just asked—we run a challenge three times a year. It's free. I get on and just teach. One of the questions that was asked was, "How do we help our kids write their own strings?" And I was like, "Oh, no, kids don't write strings. Kids solve problems using relationships." And so I think what the teachers were saying was, "Oh, I could use that relationship to help me get this one. Oh, and then I can use that to solve the problem." As if, then, the lesson's structure, the instructional routine of a string was then what we want kids to do is use what they know to logic their way through using mathematical relationships and connections to get answers and to solve problems. That record is not a string, that record is a record of their work. Does that make sense, how there's a little difference there? Mike: It totally does, but I think that's a good distinction. And frankly, that's a misunderstanding that I had when I first started working with strings as well. It took me a while to realize that the point of a string is to unveil a set of relationships and then allow kids to take them up and use them. And really it's about making these relationships or these problem solving strategies sticky, right? You want them to stick. We could go back to what you said. We're trying to high-dose a set of relationships that are going to help kids with strategies, not only in this particular string, but across the mathematical work they're doing in their school life. Pam: Yes, very well said. So for example, we did an addition "over" relationship in the addition string that I talked through, and then we did a multiplication "over" set of relationships and multiplication. We can do the same thing with subtraction. We could have a subtraction string where the helper problem is to subtract a bit too much. So something like 42 minus 20, and then the next problem could be 42 minus 19. And we're using that: I'm going to subtract a bit too much and then how do you adjust? And hoo, after you've been thinking about addition "over," subtraction "over" is quite tricky. You're like, "Wait, why are we adding what we're subtracting?" And it's not about teaching kids a series of steps. It's really helping them reason. "Well, if I give you—if you owe me 19 bucks and I give you a $20 bill, what are we going to do?" "Oh, you've got to give me 1 back." Now that's a little harder today because kids don't mess around with money. So we might have to do something that feels like they can—or help them feel money. That's my personal preference. Let's do it with money and help them feel money. So one of the things I think is unique to my work is as I dove in and started facilitating other people's strings and really building my mathematical relationships and connections, I began to realize that many teachers I worked with, myself included, thought, "Whoa, there's just this uncountable, innumerable wide universe of all the relationships that are out there, and there's so many strategies, and anything goes, and they're all of equal value." And I began to realize, "No, no, no, there's only a small set of major relationships that lead to a small set of major strategies." And if we can get those down, kids can solve any problem that's reasonable to solve without a calculator, but in the process, building their brains to reason mathematically. And that's really our goal, is to build kids' brains to reason mathematically. And in the process we're getting answers. Answers aren't our goal. We'll get answers, sure. But our goal is to get them to build that small set of relationships because that small set of strategies now sets them free to logic their way through problems. And bam, we've got kids math-ing using the mental actions of math-ing. Mike: Absolutely. You made me think about the fact that there's a set of relationships that I can apply when I'm working with numbers Under 20. There's a set of relationships, that same set of relationships, I can apply and make use of when I'm working with multidigit numbers, when I'm working with decimals, when I'm working with fractions. It's really the relationships that we want to expose and then generalize and recognize this notion of going over or getting strategically to a friendly number and then going after that or getting to a friendly number and then going back from that. That's a really powerful strategy, regardless of whether you're talking about 8 and 3 or whether you're talking about adding unit fractions together. Strings allow us to help kids see how that idea translates across different types of numbers. Pam: And it's not trivial when you change a type of number or the number gets bigger. It's not trivial for kids to take this "over" strategy and to be thinking about something like 2,467 plus 1,995—and I know I just threw a bunch of numbers out, on purpose. It's not trivial for them to go, "What do I know about those numbers? Can I use some of these relationships I've been thinking about?" Well, 2,467, that's not really close to a friendly number. Well, 1,995 is. Bam. Let's just add 2,000. Oh, sweet. And then you just got to back up 5. It's not trivial for them to consider, "What do I know about these two numbers, and are they close to something that I could use?" That's the necessary work of building place value and magnitude and reasonableness. We've not known how to do that, so in some curriculum we create our whole extra unit that's all about place value reasonableness. Now we have kids that are learning to rote memorize, how to estimate by round. I mean there's all this crazy stuff that we add on when instead we could actually use strings to help kids build that stuff naturally kind of ingrained as we are learning something else. Can I just say one other thing that we did in my new book? Developing Mathematical Reasoning: Avoiding the Trap of Algorithms. So I actually wrote it with my son, who is maybe the biggest impetus to me diving into the research and figuring out all of this math-ing and what it means. He said, as we were writing, he said, "I think we could make the point that algorithms don't help you learn a new algorithm." If you learn the addition algorithm and you get good at it and you can do all the addition and columns and all the whatever, and then when you learn the subtraction algorithm, it's a whole new thing. All of a sudden it's a new world, and you're doing different—it looks the same at the beginning. You line those numbers still up and you're still working on that same first column, but boy, you're doing all sorts—now you're crossing stuff out. You're not just little ones, and what? Algorithms don't necessarily help you learn the next algorithm. It's a whole new experience. Strategies are synergistic. If you learn a strategy, that helps you learn the next set of relationships, which then refines to become a new strategy. I think that's really helpful to know, that we can—strategies build on each other. There's synergy involved. Algorithms, you got to learn a new one every time. Mike: And it turns out that memorizing the dictionary of mathematics is fairly challenging. Pam: Indeed [laughs], indeed. I tried hard to memorize that. Yeah. Mike: You said something to me when we were preparing for this podcast that I really have not been able to get out of my mind, and I'm going to try to approximate what you said. You said that during the string, as the teacher and the students are engaging with it, you want students' mental energy primarily to go into reasoning. And I wonder if you could just explicitly say, for you at least, what does that mean and what might that look like on a practical level? Pam: So I wonder if you're referring to when teachers will say, "Do we have students write? Do we not have them write?" And I will suggest: "It depends. It's not if they write; it's what they write that's important." What do I mean by that? What I mean is if we give kids paper and pencil, there is a chance that they're going to be like, "Oh, thou shalt get an answer. I'm going to write these down and mimic something that I learned last year." And put their mental energy either into mimicking steps or writing stuff down. They might even try to copy what you've been representing strategies on the board. And their mental effort either goes into mimicking, or it might go into copying. What I want to do is free students up [so] that their mental energy is, how are you reasoning? What relationships are you using? What's occurring to you? What's front and center and sort of occurring? Because we're high-dosing you with patterns, we're expecting those to start happening, and I'm going to be saying things, giving that helper problem. "Oh, that's occurring to you? It's almost like it's your idea—even though I just gave you the helper problem!" It's letting those ideas bubble up and percolate naturally and then we can use those to our advantage. So that's what I mean when [I say] I want mental energy into "Hmm, what do I know, and how can I use what I know to logic my way through this problem?" And that's math-ing. Those are the mental actions of mathematicians, and that's where I want kids' mental energy. Mike: So I want to pull this string a little bit further. Pun 100% intended there. Apologies to listeners. What I find myself thinking about is there've got to be some do's and don'ts for how to facilitate a string that support the kind of reasoning and experience that you've been talking about. I wonder if you could talk about what you've learned about what you want to do as a facilitator when you're working with a string and maybe what you don't want to do. Pam: Yeah, absolutely. So a good thing to keep in mind is you want to keep a string snappy. You don't want a lot of dead space. You don't want to put—one of the things that we see novice, well, even sometimes not-novice, teachers do, that's not very helpful, is they will put the same weight on all the problems. So I'll just use the example 8 plus 10, 8 plus 9, they'll—well, let me do a higher one. 7 times 8, 70 times 8. They'll say, "OK, you guys, 7 times 8. Let's really work on that. That's super hard." And kids are like, "It's 56." Maybe they have to do a little bit of reasoning to get it, because it is an often missed fact, but I don't want to land on it, especially—what was the one we did before? 34 plus 10. I don't want to be like, "OK, guys, phew." If the last problem on my string is 26 plus 18, I don't want to spend a ton of time. "All right, everybody really put all your mental energy in 36 plus 10" or whatever I said. Or, let's do the 7 times 8 one again. So, "OK, everybody, 7 times 8, how are you guys thinking about that?" Often we're missing it. I might put some time into sharing some strategies that kids use to come up with 7 times 8 because we know it's often missed. But then when I do 70 times 8, if I'm doing this string, kids should have some facility with times 10. I'm not going to be like, "OK. Alright, you guys, let's see what your strategies are. Right? Everybody ready? You better write something down on your paper. Take your time, tell your neighbor how…." Like, it's times 10. So you don't want to put the same weight—as in emphasis and time, wait time—either one on the problems that are kind of the gimmes, we're pretty sure everybody's got this one. Let's move on and apply it now in the next one. So there's one thing. Keep it snappy. If no one has a sense of what the patterns are, it's probably not the right problem string. Just bail on it, bail on it. You're like, "Let me rethink that. Let me kind of see what's going on." If, on the other hand, everybody's just like, "Well, duh, it's this" and "duh, it's that," then it's also probably not the right string. You probably want to up the ante somehow. So one of the things that we did in our problem string books is we would give you a lesson and give you what we call the main string, and we would write up that and some sample dialogs and what the board could look like when you're done and lots of help. But then we would give you two echo strings. Here are two strings that get at the same relationships with about the same kind of numbers, but they're different and it will give you two extra experiences to kind of hang there if you're like, "Mm, I think my kids need some more with exactly this." But we also then gave you two next-step strings that sort of up the ante. These are just little steps that are just a little bit more to crunch on before you go to the next lesson that's a bit of a step up, that's now going to help everybody increase. Maybe the numbers got a little bit harder. Maybe we're shifting strategy. Maybe we're going to use a different model. I might do the first set of strings on an area model if I'm doing multiplication. I might do the next set of strings in a ratio table. And I want kids to get used to both of those. When we switch up from the 8 string to the next string, kind of think about only switching one thing. Don't up the numbers, change the model, and change the strategy at the same time. Keep two of those constant. Stay with the same model, maybe up the numbers, stay with the same strategy. Maybe if you're going to change strategies, you might back up the numbers a little bit, stick with the model for a minute before you switch the model before you go up the numbers. So those are three things to consider. Kind of—only change up one of them at a time or kids are going to be like, "Wait, what?" Kids will get higher dosed with the pattern you want them to see better if you only switch one thing at a time. Mike: Part of what you had me thinking was it's helpful, whether you're constructing your own string or whether you're looking at a string that's in a textbook or a set of materials, it's still helpful to think about, "What are the variables at play here?" I really appreciated the notion that they're not all created equal. There are times where you want to pause and linger a little bit that you don't need to spend that exact same amount of time on every clunker and every helper. There's a critical problem that you really want to invest some time in at one point in the string. And I appreciated the way you described, you're playing with the size of the number or the complexity of the number, the shift in the model, and then being able to look at those kinds of things and say, "What all is changing?" Because like you said, we're trying to kind of walk this line of creating a space of discovery where we haven't suddenly turned the volume up to 11 and made it really go from like, "Oh, we discovered this thing, now we're at full complexity," and yet we don't want to have it turned down to, "It's not even discovery because it's so obvious that I knew it immediately. There's not really anything even to talk about." Pam: Nice. Yeah, and I would say we want to be right on the edge of kids' own proximal development, right on the edge. Right on the edge where they have to grapple with what's happening. And I love the word "grapple." I've been in martial arts for quite a while, and grappling makes you stronger. I think sometimes people hear the word "struggle" and they're like, "Why would you ever want kids to struggle?" I don't know that I've met anybody that ever hears the word "grapple" as a negative thing. When you "grapple," you get stronger. You learn. So I want kids right on that edge where they are grappling and succeeding. They're getting stronger. They're not just like, "Let me just have you guess what's in my head." You're off in the field and, "Sure hope you figure out math, guys, today." It's not that kind of discovery that people think it is. It really is: "Let me put you in a place where you can use what you know to notice maybe a new pattern and use it maybe in a new way. And poof! Now you own those relationships, and let's build on that." And it continues to go from there. When you just said—the equal weight thing, let me just, if I can—there's another, so I mentioned that there's at least five structures of problem strings. Let me just mention one other one that we like, to give you an example of how the weight could change in a string. So if I have an equivalent structure, an equivalent structure looks like: I give a problem, and an example of that might be 15 times 18. Now I'm not going to give a helper; I'm just going to give 15 times 18. If I'm going to do this string, we would have developed a few strategies before now. Kids would have some partial products going on. I would probably hope they would have an "over," I would've done partial products over and probably, what I call "5 is half a 10." So for 15 times 18, they could use any one of those. They could break those up. They could think about twenty 15s to get rid of the extra two to have 18, 15. So in that case, I'm going to go find a partial product, an "over" and a "5 is half a 10," and I'm going to model those. And I'm going to go, "Alright, everybody clear? Everybody clear on this answer?" Then the next problem I give—so notice that we just spent some time on that, unlike those helper clunker strings where the first problem was like a gimme, nobody needed to spend time on that. That was going to help us with the next one. In this case, this one's a bit of a clunker. We're starting with one that kids are having to dive in, chew on. Then I give the next problem: 30 times 9. So I had 15 times 18 now 30 times 9. Now kids get a chance to go, "Oh, that's not too bad. That's just 3 times 9 times 10. So that's 270. Wait, that was the answer to the first problem. That was probably just coincidence. Or was it?" And now especially if I have represented that 15 times 18, one of those strategies with an area model with an open array, now when I draw the 30 by 9, I will purposely say, "OK, we have the 15 by 18 up here. That's what that looked like. Mm, I'll just use that to kind of make sure the 30 by 9 looks like it should. How could I use the 15 by 18? Oh, I could double the 15? OK, well here's the 15. I'm going to double that. Alright, there's the 30. Well, how about the 9? Oh, I could half? You think I should half? OK. Well I guess half of 18. That's 9." So I've just helped them. I've brought out, because I'm inviting them to help me draw it on the board. They're thinking about, "Oh, I just half that side, double that side. Did we lose any area? Oh, maybe that's why the products are the same. The areas of those two rectangles are the same. Ha!" And then I give the next problem. Now I give another kind of clunker problem and then I give its equivalent. And again, we just sort of notice: "Did it happen again?" And then I might give another one and then I might end the string with something like 3.5 times—I'm thinking off the cuff here, 16. So 3.5 times 16. Kids might say, "Well, I could double 3.5 to get 7 and I could half the 16 to get 8, and now I'm landing on 7 times 8." And that's another way to think about 3.5 times 16. Anyway, so, equivalent structure is also a brilliant structure that we use primarily when we're trying to teach kids what I call the most sophisticated of all of the strategies. So like in addition, give and take, I think, is the most sophisticated addition. In subtraction, constant difference. In multiplication, there's a few of them. There's doubling and having, I call it flexible factoring to develop those strategies. We often use the equivalent structure, like what's happening here? So there's just a little bit more about structure. Mike: There's a bit of a persona that I've noticed that you take on when you're facilitating a string. I'm wondering if you can talk about that or if you could maybe explain a little bit because I've heard it a couple different times, and it makes me want to lean in as a person who's listening to you. And I suspect that's part of its intent when it comes to facilitating a string. Can you talk about this? Pam: So I wonder if what you're referring to, sometimes people will say, "You're just pretending you don't know what we're talking about." And I will say, "No, no, I'm actually intensely interested in what you're thinking. I know the answer, but I'm intensely interested in what you're thinking." So I'm trying to say things like, "I wonder." "I wonder if there's something up here you could use to help. I don't know. Maybe not. Mm. What kind of clunker could—or helper could you write for this clunker?" So I don't know if that's what you're referring to, but I'm trying to exude curiosity and belief that what you are thinking about is worth hearing about. And I'm intensely interested in how you're thinking about the problem and there's something worth talking about here. Is that kind of what you're referring to? Mike: Absolutely. OK. We're at the point in the podcast that always happens, which is: I would love to continue talking with you, and I suspect there are people who are listening who would love for us to keep talking. We're at the end of our time. What resources would you recommend people think about if they really want to take a deeper dive into understanding strings, how they're constructed, what it looks like to facilitate them. Perhaps they're a coach and they're thinking about, "How might I apply this set of ideas to educators who are working with kindergartners and first graders, and yet I also coach teachers who are working in middle school and high school." What kind of resources or guidance would you offer to folks? Pam: So the easiest way to dive in immediately would be my brand-new book from Corwin. It's called Developing Mathematical Reasoning: Avoiding the Trap of Algorithms. There's a section in there all about strings. We also do a walk-through where you get to feel a problem string in a K–2 class and a 3–5 [class]. And well, what we really did was counting strategies, additive reasoning, multiplicative reasoning, proportional reasoning, and functional reasoning. So there's a chapter in there where you go through a functional reasoning problem string. So you get to feel: What is it like to have a string with real kids? What's on the board? What are kids saying? And then we link to videos of those. So from the book, you can go and see those, live, with real kids, expert teachers, like facilitating good strings. If anybody's middle school, middle school coaches: I've got building powerful numeracy and lessons and activities for building powerful numeracy. Half of the books are all problem strings, so lots of good resources. If you'd like to see them live, you could go to mathisfigureoutable.com/ps [http://mathisfigureoutable.com/ps], and we have videos there that you can watch of problem strings happening. If I could mention just one more, when we did the K–12, Developing Mathematical Reasoning, Avoiding the Trap of Algorithms, that we will now have grade band companion books coming out in the fall of '25. The K–2 book will come out in the spring of '26. The [grades] 3–5 book will come out in the fall of '26. The 6–8 book will come out and then six months after that, the 9–12 companion book will come out. And those are what to do to build reasoning, lots of problem strings and other tasks, rich tasks and other instructional routines to really dive in and help your students reason like math-y people reason because we are all math-y people. Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Pam, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Pam: Mike, it was a pleasure to be on. Thanks so much. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 3 - Kim Montague—I Have, You Need: The Utility Player of Instructional Routines

Kim Montague, I Have, You Need: The Utility Player of Instructional Routines ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 3 In sports, a utility player is someone who can play multiple positions competently, providing flexibility and adaptability. From my perspective, the routine I have, you need may just be the utility player of classroom routines. Today we're talking with Kim Montague about I have, you need and the ways it can be used to support everything from fact fluency to an understanding of algebraic properties. BIOGRAPHY Kim Montague is a podcast cohost and content lead at Math is Figure-out-able™. She has also been a teacher for grades 3–5, an instructional coach, a workshop presenter, and a curriculum developer. Kim loves visiting classrooms and believes that when you know your content and know your kids, real learning occurs. RESOURCES Math is Figure-out-able!™ Podcast [https://podcast.mathisfigureoutable.com/] Math is FigureOutAble!™ Guide [https://www.mathisfigureoutable.com/youneed] (Download) Journey Coaching [https://www.mathisfigureoutable.com/journey-wait] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Kim. I am really excited to talk with you today. So let me do a little bit of grounding. For listeners without prior knowledge, I'm wondering if you could briefly describe the I have, you need routine. How does it work, and how would you describe the roles that the teacher and the student play? Kim Montague: Thanks for having me, Mike. I'm excited to be here. I think it's an important routine. So for those people who have never heard of I have, you need, it is a super simple routine that came from a desire that I had for students to become more fluent with partners of ten, hundred, thousand. And so it simply works as a call-and-response. Often I start with a context, and I might say, "Hey, we're going to pretend that we have 10 of something, and if I have 7 of them, how many would you need so that together we have those 10?" And so it's often prosed as a missing addend. With older students, obviously, I'm going to have some higher numbers, but it's very call-and-response. It's playful. It's game-like. I'll lob out a question, wait for students to respond. I'm choosing the numbers, so it's a teacher-driven purposeful number sequence, and then students figure out the missing number. I often will introduce a private signal so that kids have enough wait time to think about their answer and then I'll signal everyone to give their response. Mike: OK, so there's a lot to unpack there. I cannot wait to do it. One of the questions I've been asking folks about routines this season is just, at the broadest level, regardless of the numbers that the educator selects, how would you describe what you think I have, you need is good for? What's the routine good for? How can an educator think about its purpose or its value? You mentioned fluency. Maybe say a little bit more about that and if there's anything else that you think it's particularly good for. Kim: So I think one of the things that is really fantastic about I have, you need is that it's really simple. It's a simple-to-introduce, simple-to-facilitate routine, and it's great for so many different grade levels and so many different areas of content. And I think that's true for lots of routines. Teachers don't have time to reintroduce something brand new every single day. So when you find a routine that you can exchange pieces of content, that's really helpful. It's short, and it can be done anywhere. And like I said, it builds fluency, which is a hot topic and something that's important. So I can build fluency with partners of ten, partners of a hundred, partners of thousand, partners of one. I can build complementary numbers for angle measure and fractions. Lots of different areas depending on the grade that you're teaching and what you're trying to focus on. Mike: So one of the things that jumped out for me is the extent to which this can reveal structure. When we're talking about fluency, in some ways that's code for the idea that a lot of our combinations we're having kids think about—the structure of ten or a hundred or a thousand or, in the case of fractions, one whole and its equivalence. Does that make sense? Kim: Yeah, absolutely. So we have a really cool place value system. And I think that we give a lot of opportunities, maybe to place label, but we don't give a lot of opportunities to experience the structure of number. And so there are some very nice structures within partners of ten that then repeat themselves, in a way, within partners of a hundred and partners of a thousand and partners of one, like I mentioned. And if kids really deeply understand the way numbers form and the way they are fitting together, we can make use of those ideas and those experiences within other things like addition, subtraction. So this routine is not simply about, "Can you name a partner number?," but it's laying foundation in a fun experience that kids then are gaining fluency that is going to be applied to other work that they're doing. Mike: I love that, and I think it's a great segue. My next question was going to be, "Could we talk a little bit about different sequences that you might use at different grade levels?" Kim: Sure. So younger students, especially in first grade, we're making a lot of use out of partners of 10 and working on owning those relationships. But then once students understand partners of 10, or when they're messing with partners of 10, the teacher can help make connections moving from partners of 10 to partners of 100 or partners of 20. So if you know that 9 plus 1 is 10, then there's some work to be done to help students understand that 9 tens and 1 ten makes 10 tens or 100. You can also use—capitalize on the idea of "9 and 1 makes 10" to understand that within 20, there are 2 tens. And so if you say "9" and I say "1," and then you say "19," and I say "1," that work can help sharpen the idea that there's a ten within 20 and there's some tens within 30. So when we do partners of ten, it's a foundation, but we've got to be looking for opportunities to connect it to other relationships. I think that one of the things that's so great I have, you need is that we keep it game-like, but there's so many extensions, so many different directions that you can go, and we want teachers to purposefully record and draw out these relationships with their students. There's a bit to it where it's a call-and-response oral, but I think as we'll talk about further, there's a lot of nuance to number choice and there's a lot of nuance and when to record to help capitalize on those relationships. Mike: So I think the next best thing we could do is listen to a clip. I've got a clip of you working with a student, and I'm wondering if you could set the stage for what we're about to hear. Kim: Yeah, one of my very favorite things to do is to sit down with students and interview and kind of poke around in their head a little bit to find out where they currently are with the things that they're working on and where they can sharpen some content and where to take them next. So this is me sitting down with a student, Lanaya, who I didn't know very well, but I thought, let me start off by playing I have, you need with you, because that gives me a lot of insight into your number development. So this is me sitting down with her and saying, let's just play this game that I'd like to introduce to you. Kim (teacher): Oh, can I do one more thing with you? Can I play a game that I love? Lanaya (student): Sure. Kim (teacher): OK, one more game. It's called I have, you need. And so it's a pretty simple game, actually. It just helps me think about or hear what kids are thinking. So it just is simply, if I say a number, you tell me how much more to get to 100. So if I have 50, you would say you need… Lanaya (student): 50. Kim (teacher): …so that together we would have 100. What if I said 92? Lanaya (student): 8. Kim (teacher): What if I said 75? Lanaya (student): Um…25. Kim (teacher): How do you know that one? Lanaya (student): Because it's 30 to 70, so I just like minus 5 more. Kim (teacher): Oh, cool. What if I said 64? Lanaya (student): Um…36. Kim (teacher): What if I said 27? Lanaya (student): Um…27…8—no, 72? No, 73. Kim (teacher): I don't remember what I said. [laughs] Did I say…? Lanaya (student): 27, I think. Kim (teacher): 27. So then you said 73, is that what you said? And you were about to say 80-something. Why were you going to say 80-something? Lanaya (student): Because 20 is like 80, like it's the other half, but I just had to take away more. Kim (teacher): Perfect. I see. Three more. What if I said 32? Lanaya (student): Um…68. Kim (teacher): What if I said 68? Lanaya (student): 32. Kim (teacher): [laughs] What if I said 79? Lanaya (student): Um…21. Kim (teacher): How do you know that one? Lanaya (student): Because…wait, wait, what was that one? Kim (teacher): What if I said 79? Lanaya (student): 79. Because 70 plus 30 is 100, but then I have to take away 9 more because the other half is 1, so yeah. Kim (teacher): Oh, you want to do it a little harder? Are you willing? Maybe I'll ask you that. Are you willing? Lanaya (student): Sure. Kim (teacher): OK. What if I said now our total is 1,000? What if I said 850? Lanaya (student): Um…250? Kim (teacher): How do you know? Lanaya (student): Or, actually, that'd be 150. Kim (teacher): How do you know? Lanaya (student): Because, um…uh…800 plus 200 is 1,000. And so I would just have to take—what was the number again? Kim (teacher): 850. Lanaya (student): I would have to add 50—er, have to minus 50 to that number. Kim (teacher): Um, 640. Lanaya (student): Uh, thir—360. Kim (teacher): What about 545? Lanaya (student): 400…uh, you said 549? Kim (teacher): 545, I think is what I said. Lanaya (student): Um…that'd be 465. Kim (teacher): How do you know? Lanaya (student): Because the—I just took away the number of each one. So this is 5 to make 10, and then this is 6 to make 10, and then it's 5 again, I think, or no, it would be 465, right? Kim (teacher): 465. Lanaya (student): I don't… Kim (teacher): Not sure about that one. There's a lot of 5s in there. What if I give you another one? What if I said seven hundred and thirty…721? Lanaya (student): Uh, that'd be… Kim (teacher): If it helps to write it down, so you can see it, go ahead. Lanaya (student): 389, I think? Kim (teacher): Ah, OK. Because you wanna—you're making a 10 in the… Lanaya (student): Yeah. Kim (teacher): …hundreds and a 10 in the middle and a 10 at the end. Lanaya (student): Yeah. Kim (teacher): Interesting. Mike: Wow. So there is a lot to unpack in that clip. Kim: There is, yeah. Mike: I want to ask you to pull the curtain back on this a little bit. Let's start with this question: As you were thinking about the sequence of numbers, what was going through your mind as the person who's facilitating? Kim: Yeah, so as I said, I don't really know Lanaya much at this point, so I'm kind of guessing in the beginning, and I just want her comfortable with the routine, and I'm going to give her maybe what I think might be a simple entry. So I asked [her about] 50 and then I asked [about] 92. Just gives a chance to see kind of where she is. Is she comfortable with those size of numbers? You'll notice that I did 50 and 92 and then I did 75. 75, often, if—I might hear a student talk about quarters with 75, and she didn't, but I did ask her her strategy, and throughout she uses the same strategy, which is interesting. But I changed the number choices up and you'll see—if you were to write down the numbers that I did— [I] kind of backed away from the higher numbers. I went to 64 and then 27 and then 32. So getting further and further away from the target number. If I have students who are counting a lot, then it becomes cumbersome for them to count and they might be nudged away from accounting strategy into something a little bit more sophisticated. At one point I asked her [about] 32, and then I asked her [about] the turnaround of that, 68. Just checking to see what she knows about the commutative property. Eventually I moved into 1,000. And I mentioned earlier that [with] young students, you start with 10 and maybe combinations of 100, multiples of 10. But I didn't mention that with older grades, we might do hundreds by 1 or thousands by multiples of 100 and then by 5s. So I did that with Lanaya. She seemed to feel very comfortable with the two-digit numbers, and I thought, "Well, let's take it to the thousands." But if you notice, I did 850, 640, some multiples of 10 still. She seemed comfortable with those, but [she] is still using the strategy of, "Let me go a little bit over. Let me add all the hundreds I need and then make adjustments." Mike: Mm-hmm. Kim: And so then I decided to do 545 and see what happened in that moment because at that point she's having to readjust more than one digit. Mike: Yep. Kim: And when I said the number 545, I thought, "Oh man, this is a poor choice because there's a lot of 5s and 4s." And so when she kind of maybe fumbled a little bit, I thought, "Is this because I did a poor number choice and there are lots of 4s and 5s, or is it because she's using a particular strategy that is a little more cumbersome?" So I gave her a final problem of 721, and again, that was a little bit more to adjust. So in that moment, I thought, "OK, I know where we need to work. And I need to work with her on some different strategies that aren't always about making tens." Because as she gets larger numbers or she's getting numbers that are by 1s, that becomes less sophisticated. It becomes more cumbersome. It becomes more adjustment than you maybe are even able to hold. It's not about holding it in your head. We could have been writing some things down and we did towards the end. But it's just a lot of adjustment to make, and the strategies that she's using really aren't going to be ones that help later in addition or in subtraction. So it's just kind of playing with number, and she's pretty strong with what she's working on, but there is some work to do there that I would want to do with her. Mike: It was fascinating because as I was attending to the choices you were making and what she was doing and the back and forth, I found myself thinking a bit about this notion of fluency, that part of it is the ability to be efficient, but also to be flexible at the same time. And I really connect that with what you said because she had a strategy that was working for her, but you also made a move to kind of say, "Let's see what happens if we give a set of numbers where that becomes more cumbersome." And it kind of exposed— there's this space where, again, as you said, "Now I know where we need to work." So it's a bit like a formative assessment too. Kim: Yeah, yeah. Interviewing students, like I said, is my very favorite thing to do. And it's tough because we want kids to be successful, which is a great goal, but I think it's often unfortunate that we leave students with a strategy that we think, "Oh, that's great. They have a strategy and it works for them," but we aren't really thinking about the long game. We're not thinking about, "Will this thing that they're doing support their needs as the size of the numbers increase, as the type of the numbers change?" And we want them to have choice. And again, I have, you need is fantastic because within this game, this simple routine, you can share strategies. There's a handful of strategies that kids generally use, and in the routine in the game, we get to talk about those strategies. So we have a student who's using the kind of same strategy over and over and it stops working because it's less sophisticated, it's less efficient, it's more cumbersome. Then in the routine, we get to expose other strategies that they can try on and see what works for them based on the numbers that they're being given. Mike: You made me think about something that, I'm not sure how you could even put my finger on why, but sometimes people are wonky about this notion that students should have a choice of their strategies. In some ways, it makes me think that what you're really suggesting is part of this work around flexibility is building options, right? You're not trapped in a strategy if suddenly the numbers don't make it something that's efficient. You have options, and I think that really jumps out when you think about what happened with Lanaya, but just generally what you're trying to build when you're using this routine. Kim: Yeah, I mean we are big fans of building relationships, so that strategies are natural outcomes. And I think if you are new to numeracy or you didn't grow up playing with number, it can feel like, "I'm just going to offer multiple and kids have to own them all, and now there's too many things and they don't know how to pick." But when we really focus on relationship in number, then we strengthen those relationships like in a routine with I have you, need. I grew up messing with number, and the strategies don't feel like a bunch of new things I have to memorize. I've strengthened partners of ten and hundred and thousand, and I understand doubles, and I understand the fact that you can add a little too much and back up. And so those relationships just get used in the way that I solve problems, and that's what we want for kids. Mike: I love that. We've spent a fair amount of time talking about this connection between building fluency and helping kids see and make use of structure. I'm also really taken by some of the properties that jump out of this routine. They're not formal, meaning they come up organically, and I found myself thinking a lot about algebraic reasoning or setting kids up for algebra. Could you just talk a little bit about some of that part of the work? Kim: I think that when we want kids to own and use properties, one way to go about it is to say, "Today we're going to talk about the commutative property." And you define it and you verbalize it and you write it down. You might make a poster. But more organically is the opportunity to use it and then name it as it's occurring. So in the routine, if I say "68" and she says "32" and then I say "32" and she says "68," then we are absolutely using the idea of "68 plus something is 100" and then "32 plus something is 100." There is something natural about you just [knowing] it's the other addend. In some of the other strategies that we develop through I have, you need, it's about breaking apart numbers in such a way that they are reassociating. And so when that happens for students, then we can name it afterward and say, "Oh, that's just this thing." And whether we name the property to students or not, it's more important that they're using them. And so we put it in a game, we put it in a form that we just say, "Oh, that's just where you're breaking apart numbers and finding friendly addends to go together." And I think it's really more important that teachers really understand the strategies that work so that they invite students to participate in experiences where they're using them. Mike: Yeah, I mean, what hits me about that is there's something about making use of a relationship, fleshing it out through this process of I have, you need, and then at the end coming back and saying, "Oh, we have a formal name for that." That's different than saying, "Here's the thing, here's the definition. Remember the definition, remember the name." It just works so much more smoothly and sensibly because I've been able to apply that relationship and it feels like it's inside of me now. I have an understanding and now I've just attached a name to that thing. That just feels really, really different. Kim: Yeah, I mean, if we give students the right experiences, then they have those experiences to draw on. And I'm a big fan of saying that some kids just have more experiences than others. And all kids can, but it's our job to provide the right experiences for students that they can use and that they can think back on and that they can connect to other experiences that they have. Using the relationships of number is so powerful, and I think we just need to do more and more so that kids are just stronger in the properties and stronger in connections and relationships so that then when they go solve problems, they're using what they know. Mike: Nice. So something that I want to call out for listeners who, again, this might be new for them, is there's really two parts to this routine. There's the call-and-response, whether it's with an individual student or whether it's with a whole class of students. And then there's what happens after that call-and-response. So how do you think about the choices a teacher has after they've called a number and kids have responded? What are some of the choices available to a teacher in that moment? Kim: Well, I think if you're playing, then you are kind of on a mission to learn more about students. For me, I'm always trying to figure out where students are and what they know and what they're tinkering with right now so that then I can make informed choices about what to do next. So I might make choices that are about my entire class. I might make choices based on, I'm watching particular students as we play to see where are they kind of dropping off. Where—you know, if I'm watching a video of myself playing this routine with a class, I'm scanning to, say, those students wait a little bit longer and I want to strengthen some work when we do multiples of 5 because they're chiming in just a little bit late. So I'm looking for who's fluent, who's not, who's counting on by 1s, who needs another nudge. I'm ready to bump them a little bit further along. It's not about speed. This isn't a speed routine. I absolutely think we give kids some time to wait, but just enough. So like I said, we introduce a private signal, then they let me know when the majority of class is ready. Then I call for everyone to reply. But there is some bit of this where if you're counting by 1s to get up from 68 to 100, then there's some intervention [needed]. There's some work that we can do to strengthen you. So it's important to give some think time, it's important to use the private signal, and it's about the teacher being responsive to what they notice. "Am I pulling a small group to give some students more experience, making connections?" "Am I moving some students to another set of numbers?" "Am I purposefully pairing students to give them what they need while I'm working with somebody else?" So it's an information-finding routine if I'm noticing and I'm aware of what's going on. Mike: I noticed with Lanaya, there were points where you called, she responded, and you went right in and you called after and she responded—and there were other points where you decided to say something equivalent to, "Tell me how you know." How do you think about the points where you just keep on rolling or you pause and you ask that probing question? Kim: That's a great question. So when I make a shift is often a time that I will ask, "How do you know?" First of all, it's super important to ask, "How do you know?" when students have both right and wrong answers. We have a lot of kids who are only asked, "How do you know?" when it's wrong. And then they backpedal, right? And then they just pick a new answer. And I think giving kids confidence to commit to their answer and say, "Yeah, I know it's that, and here's how I know." We continue to build that in students, that we are not the ones who hold all the answers when we question. And so, in a shift is often when I think about making a change. So if I'm asking about combinations of 10 and then I shift to a 5, multiples of 5, maybe the first or second time I ask them how they know. I think about, "Have kids had a chance to verbalize their thinking?" There are moments where you completely understand what Lanaya is saying. And then there's a few where maybe if you're not a careful listener of students, you might think, "I'm not sure she knows what she's saying." But over time, when you're a practiced listener of students, even though their words may not be fantastic, they're kind of sharing their thinking. And so it will bog it down to ask, "How do you know?" every single time. But in those shifts where I want to know, "Are you changing your strategy up?," "Are you continuing to do the same thing every time?," I think it's important to ask. Mike: So I have one last practitioner question before we move on from this. I'm wondering about annotation and the extent to which it's important and whether there are different points in time where it is, where it's not. How do you think about that? Kim: Yeah, I think that's a really important question. You can very easily hear something like this interview with Lanaya and think, "Oh, I'm just [doing] call-and-response." Which—there can be moments of that, but an important piece is annotation to draw out strategies that kids are using. So I might introduce this routine to a class and I might [do] call-and-response a day or two or a couple of times, depending on how many times that week or how often we get to play. But at some moment there's a chance to say, "Hang on a second. How did you think about that?" If I say "65" and some kids call it back, I'll say, "How did you come up with that?" And then I ask students to share their strategies, and this is the sharing part. This is the part where students get to learn from each other. And so a kid might say, "I added 5 to get to 70 and then I added 30 more to get to 100." And some kid will listen and I'm going to record that on a number line, making the jumps that they say out loud. And another student might say, "Wait a second, that's not what I did." And so there's this opportunity to share strategy, and then we can say, "Well, try that on." But if I'm not representing what students are saying on a number line, it could be really hard for others to hold onto it. It's not about [holding] everything in your head. So I often record on a number line as we're starting to share strategies or if I want to uncover a mistake that somebody makes, or if I see the kids all using one strategy, I want to draw attention back. Another really important thing is that I might want to lighten the mental load by recording the number that I said. If I'm saying, "721" and I'm not writing anything down, you might be trying to hold "7-2-1" or "720 and 1" at the same time that you're trying to do some figuring, and it's not about who can hold more. So depending on the age, the size of the numbers, I might just [quickly] sketch the number that I said because they can stare at the number while they're also doing some figuring. Or they might write the number down on their notebooks so that they can do some figuring. Mike: One of the things that jumped out is the fact that you talked about when you stop to annotate, one of the ways that you do it is to annotate on a number line as opposed to—I think what I had in my mind initially is a set of equations. Which is not to say that you couldn't do that, but I thought it was interesting that you said, "Actually, I will go to a number line for my annotations." Kim: So I think making thinking visible is hugely helpful. And if a student says—let's say I give the number 89. If somebody says, "Well, I thought about adding 1 to get to 90 and then I added 10 more to get to 100," then their strategy of adding 1 more to get to that next friendly number is one of the major strategies that we would want to develop in students when they're adding. But another student might say, "Oh, that's interesting. I started at 89 and I added 10 first to get to 99, and then I added the 1." And that's a different major strategy that we want to develop. And when you put them both up on a number line, you can see that that missing addend, that missing part is 11, but they're handling it in two different ways. And so it's a beautiful representation of thinking of things in different ways, but that they're equivalent and that you can talk about it when you see it on the board. Equations are fantastic ways to represent, but I have an affinity for number lines to represent student thinking. Mike: Love it. As a fellow podcaster, you know that the challenge of hosting one of these is we have a short amount of time to talk about something that I suspect we could talk about for hours. Talk to folks who want to keep learning about I have, you need and any other resources you would recommend for people thinking about their practice. Where could someone go if they wanted to continue this journey? Kim: They could listen to the Math is Figure-Out-Able podcast [https://podcast.mathisfigureoutable.com/], first of all. We have had several episodes where we talk about this routine and revisit it over and over again because it's super powerful. We also have a free download that I think you're going to share. It's mathisfigureoutable.com/youneed [http://mathisfigureoutable.com/youneed], so you can see something that would be helpful. And we have, at Math is Figure-Out-Able, an online coaching support called Journey [https://www.mathisfigureoutable.com/journey], where we just get to work with teachers on a regular basis to unpack the practices and the routines that you're using and spend a lot of time working with teachers and students in the classroom to develop these kinds of things that are more bang for your buck, to make the most that you can in the time that you have with your students. Mike: That's awesome. And yes, for listeners, we will include links to everything that Kim just mentioned. I wish that we could keep going. I think this is probably a good place to stop, Kim. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Kim: Oh, Mike, thank you. Appreciate you having me. Mike: Absolutely. This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Season 4 | Episode 2 - Dr. Sue Looney - Same but Different: Encouraging Students to Think Flexibly

Sue Looney, Same but Different: Encouraging Students to Think Flexibly ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 2 Sometimes students struggle in math because they fail to make connections. For too many students, every concept feels like its own entity without any connection to the larger network of mathematical ideas. On the podcast today, we're talking with Dr. Sue Looney about the powerful same and different routine. We explore the ways that teachers can use this routine to help students identify connections and foster flexible reasoning. BIOGRAPHY Sue Looney holds a doctorate in curriculum and instruction with a specialty in mathematics from Boston University. Sue is particularly interested in our most vulnerable and underrepresented populations and supporting the teachers that, day in and day out, serve these students with compassion, enthusiasm, and kindness. RESOURCES Same but Different Math [http://samebutdifferentmath.com] Looney Math [http://looneymath.com] TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Students sometimes struggle in math because they fail to make connections. For too many students, every concept feels like its own entity without any connection to the larger network of mathematical ideas. Today we're talking with Sue Looney about a powerful routine called same but different and the ways teachers can use it to help students identify connections and foster flexible reasoning. Well, hi, Sue. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to be talking with you today. Sue Looney: Hi Mike. Thank you so much. I am thrilled too. I've been really looking forward to this. Mike: Well, for listeners who don't have prior knowledge, I'm wondering if we could start by having you offer a description of the same but different routine. Sue: Absolutely. So the same but different routine is a classroom routine that takes two images or numbers or words and puts them next to each other and asks students to describe how they are the same but different. It's based in a language learning routine but applied to the math classroom. Mike: I think that's a great segue because what I wanted to ask is: At the broadest level—regardless of the numbers or the content or the image or images that educators select—how would you explain what [the] same but different [routine] is good for? Maybe put another way: How should a teacher think about its purpose or its value? Sue: Great question. I think a good analogy is to imagine you're in your ELA— your English language arts—classroom and you were asked to compare and contrast two characters in a novel. So the foundations of the routine really sit there. And what it's good for is to help our brains think categorically and relationally. So, in mathematics in particular, there's a lot of overlap between concepts and we're trying to develop this relational understanding of concepts so that they sort of build and grow on one another. And when we ask ourselves that question—"How are these two things the same but different?"—it helps us put things into categories and understand that sometimes there's overlap, so there's gray space. So it helps us move from black and white thinking into this understanding of grayscale thinking. And if I just zoom out a little bit, if I could, Mike—when we zoom out into that grayscale area, we're developing flexibility of thought, which is so important in all aspects of our lives. We need to be nimble on our feet, we need to be ready for what's coming. And it might not be black or white, it might actually be a little bit of both. So that's the power of the routine and its roots come in exploring executive functioning and language acquisition. And so we just layer that on top of mathematics and it's pure gold. Mike: When we were preparing for this podcast, you shared several really lovely examples of how an educator might use same but different to draw out ideas that involve things like place value, geometry, equivalent fractions, and that's just a few. So I'm wondering if you might share a few examples from different grade levels with our listeners, perhaps at some different grade levels. Sue: Sure. So starting out, we can start with place value. It really sort of pops when we look in that topic area. So when we think about place value, we have a base ten number system, and our numbers are based on this idea that 10 of one makes one group of the next. And so, using same but different, we can help young learners make sense of that system. So, for example, we could look at an image that shows a 10-stick. So maybe that's made out of Unifix cubes. There's one 10-stick a—stick of 10—with three extras next to it and next to that are 13 separate cubes. And then we ask, "How are they the same but different?" And so helping children develop that idea that while I have 1 ten in that collection, I also have 10 ones. Mike: That is so amazing because I will say as a former kindergarten and first grade teacher, that notion of something being a unit of 1 composed of smaller units is such a big deal. And we can talk about that so much, but the way that I can visualize this in my mind with the stick of 10 and the 3, and then the 13 individuals—what jumps out is that it invites the students to notice that as opposed to me as the teacher feeling like I need to offer some kind of perfect description that suddenly the light bulb goes off for kids. Does that make sense? Sue: It does. And I love that description of it. So what we do is we invite the students to add their own understanding and their own language around a pretty complex idea. And they're invited in because it seems so simple: "How are these the same but different?" "What do you notice?" And so it's a pretty complex idea, and we gloss over it. Sometimes we think our students understand that and they really don't. Mike: Is there another example that you want to share? Sue: Yeah, I love the fraction example. So equivalence—when I learned about this routine, the first thing that came to mind for me when I layered it from thinking about language into mathematics was, "Oh my gosh, it's equivalent fractions." So if I were to ask listeners to think about—put a picture in your head of one-half, and imagine in your mind's eye what that looks like. And then if I said to you, "OK, well now I want you to imagine two-fourths. What does that look like?" And chances are those pictures are not the same. Mike, when you imagine, did you picture the same thing or did you picture different things? Mike: They were actually fairly different. Sue: Yeah. So when we think about one-half as two fourths, and we tell kids those are the same—yes and no, right? They have the same value that, if we were looking at a collection of M&M'S or Skittles or something, maybe half of them are green, and if we make four groups, [then] two-fourths are green. But contextually it could really vary. And so helping children make sense of equivalence is a perfect example of how we can ask the question, same but different. So we just show two pictures. One picture is one-half and one picture is two-fourths, and we use the same colors, the same shapes, sort of the same topic, but we group them a little differently and we have that conversation with kids to help make sense of equivalence. Mike: So I want to shift because we've spent a fair amount of time right now describing two instances where you could take a concept like equivalent fractions or place value and you could design a set of images within the same but different routine and do some work around that. But you also talked with me, as we were preparing, about different scenarios where same but different could be a helpful tool. So what I remember is you mentioned three discrete instances: this notion of concepts that connect; things learned in pairs; and common misconceptions—or, as I've heard you describe them, naive conceptions. Can you talk about each of those briefly? Sue: Sure. As I talk about this routine to people, I really want educators to be able to find the opportunities—on their own, authentically—as opportunities arise. So we should think about each of these as an opportunity. So I'll start with concepts that connect. When you're teaching something new, it's good practice to connect it to, "What do I already know?" So maybe I'm in a third grade classroom, and I want to start thinking about multiplication. And so I might want to connect repeated addition to multiplication. So we could look at 2 plus 2 plus 2 next to 2 times 3. And it can be an expression, these don't always have to be images. And a fun thing to look at might be to find out, "Where do I see 3 and 2 plus 2 plus 2?" So what's happening here with factors? What is happening with the operations? And then of course they both yield the same answer of 6. So concepts that connect are particularly powerful for helping children build from where they know, which is the most powerful place for us to be. Mike: Love that. Sue: Great. The next one is things that are learned in pairs. So there's all sorts of things that come in pairs and can be confusing. And we teach kids all sorts of weird tricks and poems to tell themselves and whatever to keep stuff straight. And another approach could be to—let's get right in there, to where it's confusing. So for example, if we think about area and perimeter, those are two ideas that are frequently confusing for children. And we often focus on, "Well, this is how they're different." But what if we put up an image, let's say it's a rectangle, but [it] wouldn't have to be. And we've got some dimensions on there. We're going to think about the area of one and then the perimeter on the other. What is the same though, right? Because where the confusion is happening. So just telling students, "Well, perimeter's around the outside, so think of 'P' for 'pen' or something like that, and area's on the inside." What if we looked at, "Well, what's the same about these two things?" We're using those same dimensions, we've got the same shape, we're measuring in both of those. And let students tell you what is the same and then focus on that critical thing that's different, which ultimately leads to understanding formula for finding both of those things. But we've got to start at that concept level and link it to scenarios that make sense for kids. Mike: Before we move on to talking about misconceptions, or naive conceptions, I want to mark that point: this idea that confusion for children might actually arise from the fact that there are some things that are the same as opposed to a misunderstanding of what's different. I really think that's an important question that an educator could consider when they're thinking about making this bridging step between one concept or another or the fact that kids have learned how whole numbers behave and also how fractions might behave. That there actually might be some things that are similar about that that caused the confusion, particularly on the front end of exploration, as opposed to, "They just don't understand the difference." Sue: And what happens there is then we aid in memory because we've developed these aha moments and painted a more detailed picture of our understanding in our mind's eye. And so it's going to really help children to remember those things as opposed to these mnemonic tricks that we give kids that may work, but it doesn't mean they understand it. Mike: Absolutely. Well, let's talk about naive conceptions and the ways that same and [different] can work with those. Sue: So, I want to kick it up to maybe middle school, and I was thinking about what example might be good here, and I want to talk about exponents. So if we have 2 raised to the third power, the most common naive conception would be, like, "Oh, I just multiply that. It's just 2 times 3." So let's talk about that. So if I am working on exponents, I notice a lot of my students are doing that, let's put it right up on the board: "Two rays to the third power [and] 2 times 3. How are these the same but different?" And the conversation's a bit like that last example, "Well, let's pay attention to what's the same here." But noticing something that a lot of children have not quite developed clearly and then putting it up there against where we want them to go and then helping them—I like that you use the word "bridge"—helping them bridge their way over there through this conversation is especially powerful. Mike: I think the other thing that jumps out for me as you were describing that example with exponents is that, in some ways, what's happening there when you have an example like "2 times 3" next to "2 to the third power" is you're actually inviting kids to tell you, "This is what I know about multiplication." So you're not just disregarding it or saying, "We're through with that." It's in the exploration that those ideas come out, and you can say to kids, "You are right. That is how multiplication functions. And I can see why that would lead you to think this way." And it's a flow that's different. It doesn't disregard kids' thinking. It actually acknowledges it. And that feels subtle, but really important. Sue: I really love shining a light on that. So it allows us to operate from a strength perspective. So here's what I know, and let's build from there. So it absolutely draws out in the discussion what it is that children know about the concepts that we put in front of them. Mike: So I want to shift now and talk about enacting same but different. I know that you've developed a protocol for facilitating the same but different routine, and I'm wondering if you could talk us through the protocol, Sue. How should a teacher think about their role during same but different? And are there particular teacher moves that you think are particularly important? Sue: Sure. So the protocol I've worked out goes through five steps, and it's really nice to just kind of think about them succinctly. And all of them have embedded within them particular teacher moves. They are all based on research of how children learn mathematics and engage in meaningful conversation with one another. So step 1 is to look. So if I'm using this routine with 3- and 4-year-olds, and I'm putting a picture in front of them, learning that to be a good observer, we've got to have eyes on what it is we're looking at. So I have examples of counting, asking a 4-year-old, "How many things do I have in front of me?" And they're counting away without even looking at the stuff. So teaching the skill of observation. Step 1 is look. Step 2 is silent think time. And this is so critically important. So giving everybody the time to get their thoughts together. If we allow hands to go in the air right away, it makes others that haven't had that processing time to figure it out shut down quite often. And we all think at different speeds with different tasks all the time, all day long. So, we just honor that everyone's going to have generally about 60 seconds in which to silently think, and we give students a sentence frame at that time to help them. Because, again, this is a language-based learning routine. So we would maybe put on the board or practice saying out loud, "I'd like you to think about: 'They are the same because blank; they are different because blank.'" And that silent think time is just so important for allowing access and equitable opportunities in the classrooms. Mike: The way that you described the importance of giving kids that space, it seems like it's a little bit of a two-for-one because we're also kind of pushing back on this notion that to be good at math, you have to have your hand in the air first, and if you don't have your hand in the air first or close to first, your idea may be less valuable. So I just wanted to shine a light on the different ways that that seems important for children, both in the task that they're engaging with and also in the culture that you're trying to build around mathematics. Sue: I think it's really important. And if we even zoom out further just in life, we should think before we speak. We should take a moment. We should get our thoughts together. We should formulate what it is that we want to say. And learning how to be thoughtful and giving the luxury of what we're just going to all think for 60 seconds. And guess what? If you had an idea quickly, maybe you have another one. How else are they the same but different? So we just keep that culture that we're fostering, like you mentioned, we just sort of grow that within this routine. Mike: I think it's very safe to say that the world might be a better place if we all took 60 seconds to think about [laughs] what we wanted to say sometimes. Sue: Yes, yes. So as teachers, we can start teaching that and we can teach kids to advocate for that. "I just need a moment to get my thoughts together." All right, so the third step is the turn and talk. And it's so important and it's such an easy move. It might be my favorite part. So during that time, we get to have both an experience with expressive language and receptive language—every single person. So as opposed to hands in the air and I'm playing ball with you, Mike, and you raise your hand and you get to speak and we're having a good time. When I do a turn and talk, everybody has an opportunity to speak. And so taking the thoughts that are in their head and expressing them is a big deal. And if we think about our multilingual learners, our young learners, even our older learners, and it's just a brand new concept that I've never talked about before. And then on the other side, the receptive learning. So you are hearing from someone else and you're getting that opportunity of perspective taking. Maybe they notice something you hadn't noticed, which is likely to happen to somebody within that discussion. "Wow, I never thought about it that way." So the turn and talk is really critical. And the teacher's role during this is so much fun because we are walking around and we're listening. And I started walking around with a notebook. So I tell students, "While you are talking, I'm going to collect your thinking." And so I'm already imagining where this is going next. And so I'm on the ground if we're sitting on the rug, I'm leaning over, I'm collecting thoughts, I'm noticing patterns, I'm noticing where I want to go next as the facilitator of the conversation that's going to happen whole group. So that's the third component, turn and talk. The fourth component is the share. So if I've walked around and gathered student thinking, I could say, "Who would like to share their thinking?" and just throw it out there. But I could instead say—let's say we're doing the same but different with squares and rectangles. And I could say, "Hmm, I noticed a lot of you talking about the length of the sides. Is there anyone that was talking about the lengths of the sides that would like to share what either you or your partner said?" So I know that I want to steer it in that direction. I know a lot of people talked about that, so let's get that in the air. But the share is really important because these little conversations have been happening. Now we want to make it public for everybody, and we're calling on maybe three or four students. We're not trying to get around to everybody. We're probably hopefully not going to [be] drawing Popsicle sticks and going random. At this point, students have had the opportunity to talk, to listen, to prepare. They've had a sentence stem. So let's see who would like to share and get those important ideas out. Mike: I think what strikes me is there's some subtlety to what's happening there because you are naming some themes that you heard. And as you do that, and you name that, kids can say, "That's me," or, "I thought about that," or, "My partner thought about that. You're also clearly acting with intention. As an educator, there are probably some ideas that you either heard that you want to amplify or that you want kids to attend to, and yet you're not doing it in a way that takes away from the conversations that they had. You're still connecting to what they said along the way. And you're not suddenly saying, "Great, you had your turn and talk, but now let's listen to David over here because we want to hear what he has to share." Sue: Yes. And I don't have to be afraid of calling out a naive conception. Maybe a lot of people were saying, "Well, I think the rectangles have two long [sides and] two short." And they're not seeing that the square is also a rectangle. And so maybe I'm going to use that language in the conversation too, so that yeah, the intentionality is exactly it. Building off of that turn and talk to the share. The last step is the summary. So after we've shared, we have to put a bow on that, right? So we've had this experience. They generally are under 15 minutes, could be 5 minutes, could be 10 minutes. But we've done something important all together. And so the teacher's role here is to summarize, to bring that all together and to sort of say, "OK, so we looked at this picture here, and we noticed"—I'll stick with the square/rectangle example—"that both shapes have four sides and four square corners. They're both rectangles, but this one over here is a special one. It's a square and all four sides are equal and that's what makes it special." Or something like that. But we want to succinctly nail that down in a summary. If you do a same but different and nobody gets there, and so you chose this with intention, you said, "This is what we need to talk about today," and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, boy," then your summary might not sound like that. It might sound like, "Some of you noticed this and some of you noticed that, and we're going to come back to this after we do an activity where we're going to be sorting some shapes." So it's an opportunity for formative assessment. So summary isn't, "Say what I really wanted to say all along," even though I do have something I want to say; it's a connection to what happened in that conversation. And so almost always it comes around to that. But there are those instances where you learn that we need to do some more work here before I can just nicely put that bow on it. Mike: You're making me think about what one of my longtime mentors used to say, and the analogy he would use is, "You can definitely lead the horse to water, but it is not your job to shove the horse's face in the water." And I think what you're really getting at is, I can have a set of mathematical goals that I'm thinking about as I'm going into a same and different. I can act with intention, but there is still kind of this element of, "I don't quite know what's going to emerge." And if that happens, don't shove the metaphorical horse's head in the water, meaning don't force that there. If the kids haven't made the connection yet or they haven't explored the gray space that's important. Acknowledge that that's still in process. Sue: Exactly. There is one last optional step which relates to summary. So if you have time and you're up for an exploration, you can now ask your students to make one of their own. And that's a whole other level of sophistication of thought for students to recognize, "Oh, this is how those two were same but different. I'm going to make another set that are the same but different in the same way." It's actually a very complex task. We could scaffold it by giving students, "If this was my first image, what would the other one be?" That would be like what we just did. Very worthwhile. Obviously now we're not within the 10-minute timeframe. It's a lot bigger. Mike: What I found myself thinking about, the more that we talk through intent, purpose, examples, the protocol steps, is the importance of language. And it seemed like part of what's happening is that the descriptive language that's accessed over the course of the routine that comes from students, it really paves the way for deeper conceptual understanding. Is that an accurate understanding of the way that same and different can function? Sue: A hundred percent. So it's really the way that we think as we're looking at something. We might be thinking in mental pictures of things, but we might also be thinking in the words. And if we're going to function in a classroom and in society, we have to have the language for what it is that we're doing. And so yes, we're playing in that space of language acquisition, expressive language, receptive language, all of it, to help us develop this map of what that is really deeply all about so that when I see that concept in another context, I have this rich database in my head that involves language that I can draw on to now do the next thing with it. Mike: That's really powerful. Listeners have heard me say this before, but we've just had a really insightful conversation about the structure, the design, the implementation, and the impact of same and different. And yet we're coming to the end of the podcast. So I want to offer an opportunity for you to share any resources, any websites, any tools that you think a listener who wanted to continue learning about same but different, where might they go? What might you recommend, Sue? Sue: Sure. So there's two main places to find things, and they actually do exist in both. But the easiest way to think about this, there is the website, which is samebutdifferentmath.com [http://samebutdifferentmath.com], and it's important to get the word "math" in there. And that is full of images from early learning, really even up through high school. So that's the first place, and they are there with a creative common licensing. And then you mentioned tools. So there are some tools, and if we wanted to do deeper learning, and I think the easiest way to access those is my other website, which is just looneymath.com [http://looneymath.com]. And if you go up at the top under Books, there's a children's book that you can have kids reading and enjoying it with a friend. There's a teacher book that talks about in more detail some of the things we talked about today. And then there are some cards where students can sit in a learning center and turn over a card that presents them with an opportunity to sit shoulder to shoulder. And so those are all easily accessed really on either one of those websites, but probably easiest to find under the looneymath.com [http://looneymath.com]. Mike: Well, for listeners, we'll put a link to those resources in the show notes to this episode. Sue, I think this is probably a good place to stop, but I just want to say thank you again. It really has been a pleasure talking with you today. Sue: You're welcome, Mike. It's one of my favorite things to talk about, so I really appreciate the opportunity. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org