The Immortal Life of Agencies

MSQ's Executive Director: Growth in the ‘Goldilocks’ zone – Ben Rudman

Today’s guest is Ben Rudman, Executive Director at MSQ, one of the fastest growing, private equity backed marketing services groups, positioning itself between the traditional holding companies and independent agencies. Ben shares why the agency model is at a pivotal moment, as AI accelerates the shift from selling time to selling outcomes, products and packaged services. He explains how MSQ has scaled to nearly 2,000 people while maintaining their entrepreneurial agility, and why client-centricity must be behavioural, not rhetorical. The conversation explores the so-called Goldilocks zone between scale and flexibility, the realities of working with procurement, and why agencies must align commercial models to client goals from the outset, rather than retrofit them later. With refreshing honesty, Ben reflects on what hasn’t yet been cracked, the talent challenges AI presents, and why creativity and ideas remain the industry’s enduring advantage. HIGHLIGHTS: [02:25] Scaling MSQ [05:11] Revenue beyond headcount [10:07] Uncertainty driving change [13:33] Aligning to outcomes [18:04] Commercial momentum model [22:50] Client centricity by design [25:51] Creating a Market of One [31:33] Building the AI backbone [33:57] Behaviour shapes culture [39:00] Charging for ideas MORE ABOUT BEN: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/benrudman [https://www.linkedin.com/in/benrudman/] Website: msqpartners.com [https://www.msqpartners.com/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

M+C Saatchi Group's Global CEO: When a client CMO leads an agency – Zaid Al-Qassab

Today’s guest is Zaid Al-Qassab, Global CEO of M+C Saatchi Group. Fascinatingly, having been client-side CMO with the likes of P&G, BT and Channel 4, this is his first agency role. So his rare perspective is gold dust. Zaid explains why agencies must stop talking to themselves and start truly understanding the complexity faced by modern CMOs – not least how the old brief-led model is being replaced by the need for orchestration. He shares how M+C Saatchi has repositioned itself around ‘Cultural Power’ and why that can – and should – be measurable. The conversation also explores AI, productisation and why agency leaders must make a stronger case for embracing a changing market. HIGHLIGHTS: [03:00] Agency navel gazing [06:28] Treating agencies as partners [07:47] Searching for a new model [11:14] Flexible orchestration [14:08] A former CMO’s advantage [17:32] The Goldilocks zone [22:22] Cultural Power as a proposition [30:35] AI as a democratizer [36:01] AI and the future of work [38:06] Three things that matter MORE ABOUT ZAID: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/zaid-al-qassab [https://www.linkedin.com/in/zaid-al-qassab-366a2a/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Code and Theory's CCO: Raising the bar for customer experience – Craig Elimeliah

Today's guest is Craig Elimeliah, Chief Creative Officer at Code and Theory, sharing his passion for why technology and creativity must go hand in hand. In his view, clients have been carrying the burden of fragmentation for far too long. That’s why his role blends engineering, strategy and craft to help clients navigate modern complexity. The discussion also explores Stagwell’s orchestration platform, The Machine, and how it’s reshaping integration across the marketing lifecycle. And perhaps most provocatively, Craig challenges our industry’s obsession with scale. If bigger isn’t always better, then agility and systems thinking matter far more. HIGHLIGHTS: [02:29] Inseparable disciplines [04:28] Thinking like architects [07:35] Creativity as change [17:25] AI as creative accelerator [22:59] Platformisation of holdcos [26:14] Evolving business models [30:13] Agentic operating systems [36:05] Knowing what to automate [42:31] Mediocrity scales exponentially MORE ABOUT CRAIG: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/craigelimeliah [https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigelimeliah/] Website: codeandtheory.com [https://www.codeandtheory.com/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Rethink’s Global Chief Strategy Officer: Showing up with a point of view – Sean McDonald

Today’s episode features Sean McDonald, Global CSO and Partner at Rethink, exploring the power of belief. Sean’s built a reputation for candour, competitive ambition and an unwavering belief in setting the standard. But he hasn’t always led that way. He reflects on how letting go of the need to ‘win’ every meeting transformed his leadership and why discovering the answer matters more than having it. Following his journey from politics and public affairs into advertising, Sean unpacks the myth of the ‘all-knowing’ strategist, explains why strong opinions must be loosely held and shares how envy can raise standards. The conversation also looks ahead, exploring growth, independence and why agencies must commit to what they optimise for. HIGHLIGHTS [02:10] Bluntness with manners [06:22] Discovering over knowing [12:08] Cult of the hero [15:38] Competition and respect [20:32] Setting global standard [24:51] Have an opinion [29:00] The goal isn't growth [31:18] Making bets [33:21] Growth versus ‘good’ [38:00] Embracing the future MORE ABOUT SEAN: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/seanamcdonald [https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanamcdonald/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Toptal’s Practice Director, Advertising & Brand Marketing: Redefining on-demand talent – Christine Olivas

Today’s guest is Christine Olivas – Practice Director, Advertising & Brand Marketing at Toptal, the world's largest, fully remote workforce. Christine describes how on-demand talent has evolved from a stop-gap to a strategic growth lever for modern agencies, enabling them to build flexible teams that respond faster, protect margins and deliver stronger work. Drawing on her experience scaling on-demand teams globally, she unpacks how moving beyond rigid resourcing helps agencies handle new-business surges, access specialist expertise and reduce pressure on core teams. With an optimistic view of the future, Christine reflects on evolving workforce values, new career paths, and building agencies that are more human, resilient and fit for what comes next. HIGHLIGHTS: [02:33] A shifting workforce [05:03] Dynamic demand for talent [09:12] Moving beyond the stopgap [13:10] CMOs want chemistry [15:58] Support without spotlight [20:03] New business influx [24:29] Flexible pricing [29:01] Freelance is evolving [32:51] Portfolios open doors [36:54] Great ideas come anywhere MORE ABOUT CHRISTINE: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/colivas [https://www.linkedin.com/in/colivas/] Forbes CMO research [https://www.forbes.com/sites/sethmatlins/2022/03/07/cmos-on-what-agencies-need-to-know-and-do-to-be-great-partners/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]