LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP

Choose Your Hard - Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay ’98, Ph.D.

A devastating injury nearly ended her dreams of becoming a pilot. SUMMARY Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay ’98, Ph.D., says the accident was merely the first chapter in a career defined by perseverance, service and leadership. SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.longblueleadership.org%2Fe%2Fchoose-your-hard-dr-jannell-macaulay-98%2F%3Ftoken%3D1a47285c51c3b357bdf6efabe02136bc] | LINKEDIN [http://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.longblueleadership.org%2Fe%2Fchoose-your-hard-dr-jannell-macaulay-98%2F%3Ftoken%3D1a47285c51c3b357bdf6efabe02136bc&title=] DR. MACAULAY'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Choose your hard: You don’t escape difficulty in life or leadership, you intentionally pick the hard path that aligns with who you want to become. 2. Let vision — not other people’s verdicts — define you by holding a clear internal picture of your future that outvotes external “no’s.” 3. Train your mind to eliminate the noise — unhelpful thoughts, doubts and narratives — to stay focused on what truly serves your goals. 4. Aim to harmonize your roles (leader, parent, partner, professional) across seasons of life rather than chasing a perfect work-life balance. 5. Be the calm in the storm by regulating your own stress response so your presence stabilizes your team instead of amplifying chaos. 6. Stop glorifying exhaustion and competitive stress and instead model healthy, high performance built on sleep, focus and quality over quantity. 7. Use simple daily mental skills — like mindfulness reps, the waterfall technique and a mindful minute at transitions — to protect clarity and compassion. 8. Replace “How are you doing?” with “What’s going well for you today?” to surface real insight, build hope and better detect those sliding toward hopelessness. 9. Practice present, personalized recognition, because small, intentional gestures of appreciation can forge lifelong trust and loyalty. 10. When you hit a crucible moment and feel unsure you’re ready, choose to commit and let the challenge grow you rather than hesitate. CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Introduction, Jannell’s Academy injury, broken femur, and redefining “no” as possibility 00:05:54 – Her father’s influence, early visions of command and flight, and limitless expectations 00:09:26 – “Choose your hard,” setting vision, eliminating noise, and turning barriers into options 00:12:22 – Air Force career breadth, strategy path, and introduction to the Syria chemical weapons mission 00:16:31 – Saying yes to Syria as a mother, family conversations, and the weight of the mission 00:19:00 – Syria as a crucible moment, inner critic vs external “no,” and committing through discomfort 00:22:17 – Identity beyond the uniform, family strain, rare eye disease, and pivot to mental performance work 00:27:06 – What stress really is, burnout, competitive stress culture, and leaders as calm vs storm 00:36:35 – Mindful leadership in action: no-email Fridays, recognition calls, and the “waterfall” technique 00:52:16 – “Breathless,” stories of Syrian mothers, legacy, and final advice to young leaders ABOUT DR. MACAULAY BIO Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98, is a combat veteran who served 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, as a pilot, commander, special operations consultant, international diplomat and professionalism instructor. With her innovative leadership style, she was the first leader to introduce mindfulness as a proactive performance strategy within the United States military. Throughout her career she gained experience leading and building teams, designing and implementing complex organizational change, and creating innovative solutions to optimize the human weapon system when operating in rugged and high-stress environments. With over 3,000 flying hours in the C-21, C-130 and KC-10, and extensive education in performance and wellness, she specializes in high-performance under stress with a holistic approach. Dr. MacAulay currently serves as a leadership and human performance consultant for the Department of War, government sector and corporate America. She is the co-founder of Warrior’s Edge, a high-performance mindset training program she developed with Pete Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks and high-performance sports psychologist, Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. MacAulay is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, has a master’s degree in kinesiology from Pennsylvania State University, and a Ph.D. with work in the field of strategic health and human performance. She is a certified wellness educator, yoga instructor and holds a certificate in plant-based nutrition. Dr. MacAulay is a TEDx speaker, military spouse and mother of two. CONNECT WITH JANNELL LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jannell-macaulay-phd-a187261/] | WEBSITE [https://WWW.jannellmacaulay.com] CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org] <---> Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org] Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org] ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL] | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://usafa.org/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT Guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Leadership begins the moment someone tells you what you can't do, and you decide they don't get to write the rest of your story. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, Dr. Janelle McCauley, Class of ’98 welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is an amazing time for us. Excited to have you. Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:19 Thank you so much for having me. I know this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to be here with you to start a conversation. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:24 Absolutely, you know, I do want to highlight some of the things you've done. It's probably true that the list is shorter for me to say what you haven't done, but pilot, combat veteran, you're a leadership strategist, you're a mother, a wife, author — we'll talk about that later. You know, also really getting into the space of a human performance specialist, a commander, all of these things that you've done and, gosh, 20 years in the Air Force, and now having been out, so excited to talk today. Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:51 Thank you so much for that amazing introduction. I don't know if I could live up to even what you just said, in some ways. But yeah, I just would love to share with your listeners how amazing the Air Force Academy can be for the potential and the possibilities for someone's future. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07 Absolutely, so let's actually jump into a time early in your cadet days, so we'll tie it right to the Air Force Academy. There was a moment in time where you literally broke your femur. I'm curious, did it break your dreams too, of being a cadet at the time? Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:21 It almost did. And there's a story to that, so I'll go into that a little bit. So, during basic training, I developed a stress fracture. You know, running in combat boots, especially the old black version that we used to run in. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:35 Yes, I remember. Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:36 Not a good thing for your body. And so I had developed this pain in my right quad to the point where I could not even stand on my right leg to put my left pant leg on, during, you know, as you're rushing to — banging on the doors, we’ll be dressed, like, “Open the doors, you will be dressed,” yeah, and I would be, you know, Welcome to the Jungleplaying — Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:55 I remember that. Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:56 I'm putting up my pants and I'm in pain, and my roommate's like, “What is happening?” Like, “You need to go to the doctor,” and I refused to, at first, of course, right? Push through it, right? And then when I finally went, they were like, “Here's the Ace bandage and some vitamin M, you know, Motrin. And, of course, I didn't know anything different, so I kept going. And then it was three days after basic training had finished, and I was at cheerleading practice, and I was doing a back flip, and my femur, like, literally snapped in half. It sounded like a tree branch. It was — I just collapsed to the floor, and this was before we had cell phones, right? So, if you can imagine, I'm 17 years old, so I hadn't turned 18 yet, and so they couldn't give me any pain medication, you know. The emergency — the ambulances rushing into the emergency room at the Academy hospital, which was not equipped to deal with what just happened to me. So, they sent me up to the Army hospital in Denver at the time, was Fitzsimmons. They couldn't understand why a 17-year-old’s femur would just snap, and no one wanted to really address the fact that maybe it was a stress fracture at the time, so they actually told me I had cancer. So, they did — a bone type, a bone type of cancer, and so they did a biopsy on the bone. I lived in traction for 10 days while all my classmates were continuing on with their freshman year. So I was about — they eventually determined that this was not cancer, this was actually stress fracture, and so the two choices they gave me was a cast from my hip to my toe for about six months, or they were going to put a rod and four screws. So a rod the length of my femur, two screws of screws on my knee, two screws in my hip. And then the doctor said, “Either way, you're never flying airplanes,” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:36 And that was your dream? Col. Jannell MacAulay 3:38 That was my dream. Yes, my uncle had flown Marine 1 for President Reagan, so I grew up watching him fly helicopters in the Marine Corps, fly the President, and just he was the coolest person ever, and I wanted to be just like him. He took me to the air shows, so yes, it was a crushing moment. You know, it was something where I thought I could either let what people were telling me, the doctor saying, “You're never gonna bend your leg like this, you're never gonna be a runner, you're never gonna be a pilot,” and I could let that define me, or I could choose to define myself and what I was going to be capable of, and what the possibilities would be for me in the future. And so it was very hard for 17-, 18-year-olds to process all of this, but my dad used to give, tell me a quote, and it was, “Vision is the art of seeing the invisible,” and he would always tell me, “If you could see it for yourself, you can make it happen,” and so when it came time for being pilot qualified, I actually chose to get all of the metal removed out of my leg, just so that there was no reason for them to not allow me to go to pilot training. And so I went through that, which was — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:49 Another surgery, wow. Col. Jannell MacAulay 4:50 Yes. So through all of that, I have learned that was the first experience where I learned a lot about myself and what I was, what I could focus on, how I could set a vision for myself in the future, and how I could start to eliminate the noise — that's what I call it now. I didn't have language for it at the time, but it's eliminate the noise that does not serve us in pursuit of our passions, in pursuit of our dreams. And that was what I had started to do, which it's kind of full circle that that is now my career, to help other people do it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:26 I want to peel that back a little bit. There's so many things. I mean, your dad's quote: “Vision is when you can see the invisible. I think I paraphrased that a bit. One more time. Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:33 It's actually a Jonathan Swift quote, and that “vision is the art of seeing the invisible.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:39 OK, so were you always that way growing up because you had, you know, your dad in your life sharing that kind of thought with you, or has it been a series of experiences that you've had that have kind of really made you that way? Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:54 So, my dad has always been a very positive role model in the sense of eliminating barriers and dreaming big. So, when I was 7 years old, and I was a ballerina, he used to tell anyone that — and I distinctly remember this as a little girl — he would tell anyone that would listen that I was going to grow up to be a submarine warfare commander or a combat pilot. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:16 Oh, wow, not a swan, no ballerina, you know — Col. Jannell MacAulay 6:18 And I would literally be in my tutu, and he would tell strangers at the grocery store, right, “This is my daughter, Jannell, she's gonna grow up and do these amazing things.” And in the ’80s, women couldn't do it, right? We weren't there yet, right? We were not allowed to — and so I didn't know that. I didn't grow up thinking that there were barriers on what I could become, and I think that's a, we have this role as parents to help our children see what's possible, because you know they can either be told where the limits are or they could be told where the possibilities exist, and I think my dad did a lot of that for me, and so that I think is a lot of my story is, like, journeying through challenge and trauma to figure out that I didn't have to listen to that voice. I could create a new one, and my dad taught me how to do that, and then I've kind of developed, what I think, are skills and training, because it's hard. It is very hard to do, and so I like that's been what my Ph.D. work and my research has been focused on, is how can I help other people who don't have maybe that those resources or their parents in their life that have taught them those things. How can I give them those tools? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:27 So you were a cadet when you made the decision that you still wanted to be a pilot, and you didn't want there to be anything that said you couldn't, so you made the decision to have the metal removed from your body. As we think about decisions that we have to make in life, that could be dream-opening decisions or dream-closing decisions. How did you come to that decision? And you know what would you share to someone who's at a similar crossroads in their life? Like, how do you navigate? That's a tough decision you made. Col. Jannell MacAulay 7:54 It was a huge decision. I think part of it is understanding what are you passionate about? Who do you want to become? And not just about what you want to do, what type of person you are. That's a lot of what I think mental skills work is as well, is like, who's the person underneath, because once you figure that out, then the doing follows, right? Like, you could do anything, and I was the type of person underneath it all that did not like to be told no, right? Or I loved it when someone would say, “You can't do that,” right? It's like the challenge is what inspires me and motivates me, and so when they were saying you will not be a pilot, it was like, OK, well, then how do I get to yes? And part of that path was I had to have the metal removed. Now, there were some arguments, like, “Maybe you'll be fine.” I don't want to take the risk, right? I was like, “Nope, I don't want to give anyone an excuse to take something away from me.” That was kind of the mindset at the time. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:00 So, I think that really dives into this idea of, you can, when you said yourself: The no in front of you is kind of like, “How do I turn that into a yes?” You know, clear out the noise. How did that play into your life as an Air Force officer? Because I'm sure that you came across a lot of what we’re seemingly no’s. What did that look like? Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:22 So, here's, but, and this goes back to the Academy as well. I tell young people today, my greatest gift is to tell them, “Choose your hard.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34 Choose your hard. Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:35 Choose your hard, right. Anytime I'm asked to speak to a college, you know, high school audience, like, I do mental skills, but a lot of times the theme is “choose your hard,” because I think people are — young people are always in pursuit of the easy button, and then when they encounter hard, like, “Oh, there's got to be a better way.” The lesson is, it's all hard, right? It's all hard. So, determine what you want to do, or who you want to be more, and how you're going to get there, set the vision, and then navigate through the hard. And I would argue you need to equip yourself with the mental skills to do that, and in pursuit of that, there is going to be no right, there are going to be challenges, and part of it is accepting the challenges instead of being afraid of them, because it is through those challenges that we're actually going to accomplish great things, and we're going to get to reach our dreams and our goals. And I think that that is something I struggled with, but I found a way and a path through it. So, I think that there's always going to be no in your life, and I like to create opportunities, so then I have, I get the choice instead of just having to default to someone else telling me no, like even when I left the Academy, I applied for pilot training for grad school, for physical therapy school. Because I wanted to have opportunities, so then I got to choose which path I wanted in the future, which hard I was going to choose for myself in that moment. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:03 I just — I'm thinking about you, went into the Air Force as a pilot, and you talk about choosing your hard, and you also are a mother. Let's talk about that piece. I think just navigating the and in being a mother and a leader and an Air Force officer and a combat veteran, a pilot, etc. I mean, that's a lot. Col. Jannell MacAulay 11:23 It is a lot, but I think underneath it all, the person that I am is one who not balances my life but harmonizes it and all the roles that I get to play. I think that's the greatest thing about the Air Force. You list all those things that I've done. I was watching the cadets yesterday, I was one of them, with just a bright future and so much possibility. And under one organization, I got to fly multiple airplanes, I got to go back to school numerous times, study a lot of interesting topics, from my degree in exercise physiology, from Penn State to my Ph.D. in strategy. So I got to study all these different things. I got to work in chemical weapons, which I know we're going to talk about later. I got to fly around the world, I got to lead people all under one team, right, one organization, and that is the greatest thing I think the Air Force can give people if they take those opportunities that are in front of them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:23 Yes. Well, let's, let's jump into a time — you actually brought up Syria. And so let's go there, because I think I would like to hear more about the story, and how it kind of unfolded around the chemical weapons there. Col. Jannell MacAulay 12:36 So, I got sent to — it’s post… So I went to the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies — SAASS time, and my husband and I were actually the first married couple to go through SAASS together. And stayed married at the end. There was one other married concept that it were exactly that. There was one other married couple with us at the time, which is really unique, but I took — you know, through SAASS, you get a strategy focus, and you have to go do a strategy job somewhere for your staff to work. OK, and so my husband really wanted to go work at the Pentagon, so he was on the joint staff working on the Israel-Palestine desk for the chairman, and I was like, “What else can I do in DC to keep my family together, that would be interesting?” And there was this job at this little organization called the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, and DTRA, as they're known, is the brain trust for everything weapons of mass destruction, so chemical, biological, nuclear weapons, planning, research, execution of mission, that is all run out of DTRA, and so I was like, “That sounds interesting, I've never done anything in any of this space, but it'll be an easy job,” is what I thought, because I was about to have my second baby, and every time I call them, no one ever answered, like, past 3 o'clock so I'm like, “Great job.” Exactly. Like, I got my staff tour done, and I get to do something new. But I was a fish out of water, you know, like former pilots, like going into this situation, the WMDs. They gave me that job also, because no one wanted it, it was almost asking people who are experienced in the world of chemical weapons to do an impossible task, right, to handle an impossible problem. And so, at the time, nobody really wanted to put their name to it, because there was a no-win. We don't have diplomatic relations with Syria, like this — a bad civil war was happening there with an evil dictator, right? Like, how were we going to solve that problem without any type of relations? And then, you know their proxy of Russia, right? So then it's like we don't even have — we didn't have the greatest relations with them. So when August of 2013 occurred, and Assad used chemical weapons against a civilian population, 1,400 people died almost instantaneously from sarin gas. Sarin gas is one of the most awful chemicals, immediately, right? It's like paralysis. It makes your eyes water, like you become — it's a horrific way to die. And when that happened, my life changed, because all of a sudden it was like, “Oh my gosh, this is real. And, “Who's been studying this problem?” And at the time, it was you and your team. And so we kind of got thrust — I got — I went to London almost immediately to start briefing our international partners on what we had been building and studying, and luckily we had been, for the better part of six months, working on this problem. And then shortly after that, I went to the Hague, because Syria did turn over their chemical weapons to the international community, and there's a whole story behind that. Obviously, we got the Russians to help with that. And then I got sent to the Hague to work at the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons — the OPCW is who has all the inspectors and the teams who helped destroy and inspect the status of these chemical weapons — and so I got sent there to work with them and negotiate directly with the Syrians and the Russians to build the plan. And I remember my boss was like, “You have to go, and I don't know when you're coming back, we need someone over there to be running point on this mission,” and yeah, he sent me, and he said I didn't have to go writing my little kids, Andrew just turned 1, but he said, you know, “We need you, and this is what I picked you for, this mission, and this is what it's for.” So, yeah. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:31 Wow, what did you — what went through your mind when you were asked to go, and you had the opportunity to make that decision? What do you mind besides the fact that you have young children? Col. Jannell MacAulay 16:44 Well, of course, like, I think, like most mothers, you never are like, “I still want to leave my kids,” right? I want to go, but I knew it was the right thing to do, because I had the ability to make an impact and a difference, because I knew the mission inside and out. I was the right person at the right time, and I was ready. I distinctly remember I went home to talk to my children. Well, Ally, she was 6 at the time, and I remember talking to her, and I said, 'Mommy has to go away to handle this mission. And what I'm going to do while I'm away is there's some really bad stuff that some really bad people have, and I'm going to work to take that stuff away from them, so that they cannot hurt anyone anymore, and she looks up, and she's, you know, crying. We're both crying, and she said, “Mommy, like a superhero?” And, I just, like, kind of nodded, and she's like, “You can go, Mommy,” like, “You can go.” And it was in that moment that I realized, like, that's why we do these jobs. It was to protect her, to model to her that, like, I can be a mom, I can be a strong mom, and I can also go do things in the service of my country and the service of my nation and it was important for me to go, and then — so that was a driving force, like knowing that my family was going to be OK and supportive, but the other driving force was thinking about the mothers in Syria who lost their children, and thinking, here I was holding mine and they will never get to hold their children anymore. I mean, hundreds of children died and were put in mass graves after this, and mothers didn't get to say goodbye, mothers didn't get to hold their children, and they suffered immensely in those moments. And so I kept thinking about the Syrian mothers, and how if I could do anything to help prevent something like that from happening again, then I had to go, right, I had to do that for them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44 Would you say that that mission, or that part, that time in your career, was something that was so impactful in your life it changed you, or it maybe shifted your focus on things you were going to do later, or was it just at that time, this is where I need to be doing and making an impact? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:01 There's a whole story behind it, where we were dismissed, and we came up with the innovative idea of how to solve this problem by destroying these chemical weapons on a boat, ship — sorry, Navy — on a ship in the middle of the Mediterranean. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:12 Was that because you were told it couldn't be done that way? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:14 Yeah, exactly. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15 Oh, interesting. Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:17 We had to actually start a whisper campaign within the Pentagon, and the State Department and the National Security Council to get our idea heard. And eventually, it was. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:28 So I’d like to take a little bit of time in that space of when you recognize that need to keep pushing for, right, the choosing your hard. How do you navigate that? What would you recommend to somebody who has been no, no, no, no, no, no, no. How do you work your way through that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:45 Well, I would first ask, where is the no coming from? Because if the no is coming from your inner critic, right, I know how to get rid of that and eliminate that, and that is actually what most people — like, that is what prevents most people from doing great things. I like to say that we all have these crucible moments in our life, a moment where we're asked to do something that we really don't think we could do, right? Like, we're kind of like, “Oh my God, deep down you're like, “Oh, I don't think I'm gonna do this. Can I do this?” And in that moment, we have the opportunity to either hesitate or commit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:24 Was Syria your yes? Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:26 It was very much a crucible moment. You could either hesitate and say, “Oh no, I can't do this, it's too big for me,” like, “I can't take this responsibility,” or “I can't make this decision,” or “I can't believe in my idea,” because the voice in your head says so. But sometimes it could even be real people telling you and dismissing you and saying, like, “You can't do this.” So, “Where does the no come from?” is always the first question. And if it's an internal no, you can train your mind to eliminate that noise. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:54 Yes. OK, I like that, because then you — it opened up your eyes to the possibilities of who you might connect with that can then help navigate through some of that challenge. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:03 And here's the reason why we, as humans, love this: What happens when you step into discomfort, right? You're at that moment, that crucible moment, and then you decide to commit, and you step into discomfort, and you navigate through it, and you get to the other side. How does that feel? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:18 Amazing. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:18 Right? You throw your arms up in the air: “I’m a badass! Look at what I just did.” And even you're like, I didn't think I could do that, and I did it. That is what we live for as humans. I don't think people realize that, right? Like, we want those moments, but we don't want the discomfort that comes in getting them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35 We want to be at the other end, right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:37 We just want to be at the other end of that, because we love that moment where you throw — so you're not gonna throw your hands up if you're like, “Oh yeah, that was so easy.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43 That's a good point. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:44 Right. You wouldn't be like, “I feel so good about it.” I'll come— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:45 We wouldn’t share with people if everybody could do it. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:47 Right? Exactly, so we do love those moments as humans, and I think that is part of what — I teach people how to not be afraid of discomfort, to get more opportunity and more times, more reps of those throw your hands up in the air and be a badass. Right? Like, and that's really what I think it's about, is being ready for that moment, and the more often you're ready for that moment, the more often you step into discomfort, the more throw your hands up in the moments you get.. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:18 So, if humans are chasing that, and that feeling of, like, you know, commit, raise your hand, get through it, and you know, kind of bask in like that, that moment, because you loved it so much. There's probably a desire to seek more of those opportunities. How did you navigate your career after that? I know you served 20 years. Was there a point where you're like, “It's time for me to move into this space,” or did you just happen to really decide to commit to this new world of mental performance and toughness? Col. Jannell MacAulay 22:49 So, I, like, most military members, I went through a phase where I got really caught up in my identity as an Air Force officer, Air Force pilot, and it can be scary to leave that identity with the one you've always known, the one that you've been comfortable with, and even though I'm successful in — and even though I do enjoy challenge and discomfort, it was scary, right? It is scary, and I think that, well, first, part of my story was, I don't know that I was necessarily completely ready to leave, but the Air Force was making it really difficult for my family. My husband and I, he was a maintenance officer, pilot, you would think maintenance and pilot, very like cohesive, compatible. We would be able to be stationed together. We spent six years apart, and two of the last three that I was in the Air Force, we did not live together. OK, and that was hard. Our kids are getting older, and I distinctly remember I was in New Jersey, commanding a squadron. My husband was in New Mexico, commanding a group. Note to the Air Force: New Mexico and New Jersey are only close in the alphabet, right? These are not close locations, not at all. And full disclosure, I had the kids with me and an au pair, because I couldn't have done it otherwise. And I remember my husband flew home, you know? He thought he would get in at like 2 a.m. on Friday night and have sleep for 10 a.m. on Sunday morning, right? Get back. I remember we woke up our son, he was four at the time, and he looks up and he goes, “Mom, Dad, you're together,” and I was like, “No, this is not OK.” Like I don't want my children to just wake up or just be grateful when their parents are in the same room, like, that's not what I want for their childhood experience. And so I actually gave up my command six months early, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done, because I loved being a commander, but I was at a point in my life where I realized my squadron will get another commander who cares so much about them, just like I do, but my kids only have like one mom, yeah, and they had one dad, and they needed us together. And so that was a hard decision, but it did set me like on a trajectory to think about retirement, to think about, you know, what I could do on the outside, and actually it was like divine intervention, I actually lost my pilot qualification. I have a rare eye disease, and so I've gone very blind to my central vision, like 80% blind to my right eye. So I was going to get my pilot qualification taken from me, and so I think that was God's way of saying, “It's time, this is not your path anymore. You have a different gift,” right? Flying was a great gift, leading in the Air Force was a great gift. “There's a different path for you.” And so that's when I retired, and then kind of realized there were so many people that wanted to hear this information. There were so many people that were struggling with this idea of “How do I perform? How do I manage stress? How do I get those badass, like, throw my hands up in air moments?” And I started by working with high-performing teams, the military, first responders, hospital workers, you know. Then COVID hit, and I realized everybody, everybody needs it, stress, like psychological disorders, like they're on the rise, anxiety, and if I knew how to help people, why would I keep that to myself, right? Like, it's just became something I'd be passionate about. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:29 Goodness, that's probably something that people don't know just by looking at you, that you actually have an eye disease that you battle through, and I'm curious on when you started into this work, like you said, COVID hit, and you realize everybody needed this. It almost is a bit of, maybe reinvention is not the right word, but you literally change your trajectory completely, even though you had all that schooling. So, my question is, how did you actually, how do you determine who you work with, because the land is so vast of who needs it, you know? I mean, how do you actually do that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:06 There's only one of me. It has been hard. My tribe is always the military, and even though I do spend a lot of time in the private sector working with, you know, companies from Amazon, NBC Universal, like, hotel chains, different industries — which I love — anytime a military commander reaches out and says, “We need help,” whether it's burnout, whether it's just not optimizing performance, whether it's stress-management, because if you look at the majority of DOCS today, people are burnout and stressed out, and— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:47 Oh, the organizational climate service. Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:49 Yes, yes, the climate service. And so most of the time, how do you, how do you manage that as a commander? Because, and here's the thing about stress and burnout: Stress is a perceived emotion. People don't think about it, but the actual what stress is, is your perception as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of a given moment. So, your brain, when you're faced with a stressor, something comes at you, and it's a stimulant, right? And your environment, whether it was like a contentious conversation, traffic, it was like a big decision, like flying a plane in combat, right, whatever that is coming at you, your brain does a like split-second calculation as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of that moment, and if your brain says, “Oh hell no,” it becomes overwhelming, it becomes stress, it be it sends you into this like spiral of like anxiety, which is like — what anxiety actually is, it's your mind's creation of what you think is going to happen in the future. It actually hasn't happened to you. Anxiety is a complete creation of the mind, right? It is. Our minds are fantastic at mental time travel. They will take us in catastrophizing about the future. I like to tell people, the majority of the catastrophes you will experience in your lifetime, they will only happen inside your head, right? They will feel very real, because our minds are fantastic at this time travel. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:11 Then it turns physical. Col. Jannell MacAulay 29:12 Yes, then it becomes like part of our physiology. So that's what this is, what leads to chronic stress. It leads to preventive illness that sets in, because we live our lives in this chronic state of stress, and stress again is a perception. So you could also be stimulated by that stressor, and instead of getting overwhelmed, you could say, “Bring it on.” Like, this is a challenge and I’ve got the resources to meet this moment. It’s a choice. Again, I get people, “It’s not as simple as that.” It is as simple as that, but it's hard in practice, and most of that is because we have spent 20, 30, 40 years training and wiring our brains for one direction, which is to strat for stress and survival, right. And so when I do ask people to flip it, you can't just flip it over, but these are not soft skills. This is why what I teach is very hard, because you're rewiring your brain. The good news is it's called neuroplasticity. We can rewire our brains, but it does take work and deliberate commitment, and that's why, you know, I see this all the time with spouses. They're like, “I don't see what is the big deal. My wife is freaking out,” or vice versa, like in a cockpit. Like, I'm calm, and I'm like, “Why is my co-pilot freaking out?” It's that perception, and how our brain deals stressors. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:27 So, we have a lot of listeners that are leading people. How do you navigate their ability to help others through that, or is it really more dependent on the individual themselves? Like, do you need the individual to do with the work with you, or can you work with the leader and help them navigate that with their folks? Col. Jannell MacAulay 30:46 You can absolutely work with the leader, and as a leader, you can role model the behaviors. So, there's some real science behind this. For example, how often is a leader creating a storm instead of being the calm in the storm, right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:02 More often than people realize. Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:03 Right, it really is, and it's almost one of those things where later can be the calm in the storm, right? But when they're not, they embody the stress that then pervades through the organization, right? Like they create that culture, and so if you have a boss that comes in every day stressed out, you have a boss that's not sleeping. I absolutely, this is what drives you crazy about leaders in the Air Force, who will say things like, “I only sleep three, four hours a night,” and like, you are bragging your suboptimal, right, from someone who studies performance and psychology, and like, you are literally telling people, “I am not ready to make decisions on your behalf or be your leader today.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:42 I like how you said that: “You are bragging your suboptimal.” That is right, there, those words, that's fantastic. Col. Jannell MacAuley 31:48 Right, but we — it's part of our culture, right, to even kind of be like proud of it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:51 How much did I actually, you know, keep myself up to get more done? Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:55 Yes, yes. And so here's another example. I'll tell a quick story. I was a commander, sat down Monday morning meeting with my peers, and one guy says, “Oh, I worked all day Sunday on performance reports, like, I have a sick kid at home, so I only got like two hours of sleep, like barely had time to grab coffee, you know, but I'm here to be a badass.” And then the next guy goes, “Well, let me tell you something. I worked Saturday and Sunday on all my performance reports, and, oh, by the way, two sick kids at home, so I didn't sleep last night.” Wow, you know, “I didn't have time to grab coffee, but like, I'm here to be a badass.” And then they turned to me, like, expecting me to one up them on my stress. It's a culture of competitive stress that we live in. And instead, I said, “Well, my husband doesn't live with me. I had to get all my work done last week, so I can spend the weekend with my kids,” but mind you, I had the OSS, the flying squadron, so I had triple the size squadron, “but I got all my work done last week because I was more focused in my work. Then I hung out with my kids, everyone slept great, like no one's sick, we're all good. I've got my yummy green smoothie to start the day,” and instead of anyone at that table saying, “Oh my gosh, how do you do that?” The sentiment was, “Well, she's obviously not working hard now.” That's our culture, like our culture is one of, if you're not stressed, if you're not showing how busy you are, you're not valued, and actually that is not the path to performance. The path to performance is quality over quantity, it's sleeping, it's demonstrating to stay calm, it's making good decisions, it's, you know, so we as leaders can either set that tone that we're in this competitive stress, which then makes our captains not want to be us, like that's a huge problem, right? But if you're the type of leader who stays calm, if you're the type of leader that they see, “Oh, they go home every night on time, they do spend — they do leave early sometimes to go to their kids' soccer game.” That could, should be OK, but it never — I never didn't perform my job right, I was still working hard and doing the things I needed to do every day, I just was more efficient. Here's the stat: We mind-wander half our waking moments. Do you know what that means? Like, we've all read a page in the book, back to the bottom. Yep, don't know what I read. Drove in your car someplace, don't know how I got there. Yep, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:06 Yep, autopilot Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:06 That's when you have an off-task thought, your brain, your attention system goes off task during an ongoing task or activity. I'm telling my brain to pay attention to driving or reading, it goes elsewhere. It's unintentional, and when our brain does that. t mind-wanders towards stressors, worries, catastrophes, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:41 To-do lists. Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:22 To-do lists, exactly. All of those horrible things that then make you more angry and distraught and unhappy, right? So, what if we could get control of that, stop spending so much time in that distraction and be more focused? Well, you do that by not having your phone all the time, you do that by looking at people and actually listening, because this is where leadership comes in. If we're having a conversation and I'm telling you something important, you're my, you're my commander, and I look at you and I'm like, “She's looking at me but not listening.” You can feel that as you can see. And so leaders can be mindful and focused and pay attention. It doesn't take that much, but it takes awareness. That's really what we're training when we train our minds. We are training our awareness. I'm not saying that I am perfect at being focused, I am not perfect at staying calm. The difference is, is when I start to get out of control, I recognize it quickly, and I redirect. When I notice myself not paying attention to our conversation, I redirect very quickly. That's the skill, and that's what we're not teaching enough leaders, I don't think. We're getting there, because I think leaders can set the talent, leaders can set the example, and when I was a commander, I collected data, and we found that, you know, 60, over 60% of the leaders I was interacting with on a daily basis changing their life based on the things I was teaching them, based on the way I was modeling behaviors, and then a greater squadron, it was like 35% and that's — I didn't even teach them anything, I just demonstrated an example. So imagine once you start teaching people how much more those stats will grow and how people's lives will change. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04 Right. well, one of my favorite stories, I think, that you know, and I'm thinking about our leaders that are listening in here as they, as they think about how they can be better leaders. One of the stories you shared previously was actually recognizing someone by calling someone important in their life to share their good news, and it took like two minutes. I think what a wonderful lesson, like being a great leader and championing someone does not have to take a long time, but the impact lasts — could be forever. Do you mind sharing that story? Because I just think that's such a wonderful one. Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:35 I love that story. So, I had an airman who got below-the-zone senior airman, and I used to do a thing where, you know, whether it was a coin or whether it was an award or whether it was just a job all done, and we wanted to celebrate someone in the squadron, you know, you could send someone an email. I hate email, which I did — also as a commander, No- Email Friday. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:56 Really?! Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:56 Did not check my emails on Fridays because I wanted one day where I wasn't chained to my desk, like I was like, in fact, you know how my wing commander found out I was doing No-email Friday? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:06 Because they emailed and you didn't email back? Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:08 He got my out-of-office response. Welcome to No-email Friday. “I'm not checking my email today. If you really need to get a hold of me, call me. There's my phone number.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:15 I love that. Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:16 So I did that to ensure that I could spend more time with, like, how do you lead people if you don't know them? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:23 Right, you can't. Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:24 And if you're sitting behind your desk or you're checking emails, like, you can't know people. So I would spend Friday down and about, and we used to do this thing where I would call someone special first for someone, if maybe they had a big event or whatever we were celebrating. So one day, this gentleman got below the zone, and I asked him to pull out his phone, because I used to call people, and people don't answer strange numbers anymore. So that stopped working. I was like, “You pick — pull out your phone, let's call someone special that you pick, and because everyone's gonna answer their kids, right? And I actually talked to, like, spouses, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, like brothers, sisters of people, yeah, over the course of my commands, and I asked him to pull out his phone, called his dad. I got to brag on him a little bit, saying, like, “Hey, this is what your son is doing,” and most of the time kids don't even tell their parents what they're doing in the Air Force, so it was an opportunity for that. At the end of the conversation, I remember it just like it was yesterday. The dad said, “I'm so proud of you, I love you, son.” And I looked up, and my airman just had tears streaming down his face, and I was getting choked up, and my airman said, my dad has never said that to me before. So we're busy as leaders, like we are, go, go, go, we are in a competitive stress environment, whether we want to be or not, and I'm just asking leaders to pause, right, and it doesn't have to take a lot of time, right, just pause. Those types of interactions you have with an airman, the next time you need them to work late, the next time you need them to take the hill, the next time you need them to go deploy, or whatever it is, you've built a level of trust that only happens when you're paying attention, and that's what the future fight is about. The future fight is about connecting as human beings and focusing when we're doing those hard and challenging things, and the way we do both of those is by training our attention system. You know, we have to pay attention to each other, and we have to pay attention to our job, so that we can be high performing when it's hard. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:25 This has been excellent. I didn't — wow. Got me… Tears. Eyes are sweating here in the studio. No, this is wonderful. I'm curious, with all the work that you do in helping others, what is something you're doing every day to stay sharp yourself in this space to be better as a leader, what's something you do? Col. Jannell MacAulay 39:46 I am really big on continuously challenging myself, like I always want to have a goal or something hard in my future, like I think that that, especially as we get older, I think it's really important. And so, on a personal front, I just signed up to run 50 miles. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:04 Oh my goodness. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:04 I got five friends to do it with me, so I'm like excited. Yeah, it's not all in one day, it's like you run a 5k, 10k, half-marathon, marathon over the course of four days. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:14 And so the longest race at the end. Wow. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:16 At the end. Yes, that's why it's a big challenge. And so that's my next one. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:22 When is that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:23 That is in January. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:24 Oh my goodness, so yeah. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:25 Just about. And again, for someone who was told you will never be a runner, I think that's also why I want to do it, you know, just to prove to myself that I can, so that's kind of a personal challenge, but on the leadership front, you know, I challenge myself every day. Writing a book was scary, right? You know, when I go and work with each team, whether it's someone in the, you know, like a company or whether it's a military unit, I try to take my time to like customize exactly what they need. It's not just going to be like cookie cutter for everyone, and so that's like my continuous challenge is, can I go into an environment and lead and instruct and educate and train in a way that's meaningful to that group, and that's, you know, what I would, I do for my job, but most importantly, I love this sentiment that you can be everything to someone or you can be someone to everyone. Sometimes in my job I get on a stage, I talk to thousands of people, and I'm someone to a lot of people, right? I can give them a little piece of what I teach, but I also have two young people in my life, my children, that my role to be everything to them is also very important, and so I try to harmonize that the best I can, because it's easy. They get caught up in, like, I'm just gonna go out there and keep sharing this message and forget that there's people closest to me. You know, leadership is about influence, right? Your 3-foot circle, which one of my classmates at the academy, Ronnie Buller, taught me, right? Your 3-foot circle is who you interact with, whether it's your family, your team, your neighbors, your community, and so you have the ability to continuously lead, and that's I want to continuously lead by example and teach people that we need to train their minds. It's not a whoo whoo thing, it's a hard thing that requires deliberate and consistent practice, and it will pay dividends if you give it the focus and time it deserves. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:28 I appreciate that you use the word that you like to harmonize things in your life versus balance. I think that's a very distinct difference. It's really impressive. If you could go back in time and talk to Janelle, young Janelle, or maybe it's even just talking to your daughter once you're young girl. What advice would you give her in the space of leadership? Col. Jannell MacAulay 42:48 Well, I would say to choose your hard, and I wish somebody would have imparted that a little bit more on me. I had that sentiment, and I had a lot of grit, and I had a lot of determination, and that's why I did accomplish a lot when I was younger, but it was more difficult than it needed to be. I'm not here to say, like, it makes it easy, it can be easier when correspondingly, like, you're, you're, you have great, you have determination, you're repetitively challenging yourself, that builds mental strength. But if I had known that I could also train my mind in a deliberate way, in parallel, just to make it a little bit easier, and to also find the joy in the journey. There's a picture of me when I got back from a KC-10 deployment, and I'm holding my daughter. She was 15 months, so it was like the first time I had deployed when she was young, and that was a hard deployment. And I remember, like, I look at that picture, and I can see in my face and in my eyes, that I was always already worried about the next thing. Like, instead of being joyful that I was holding my daughter, I was like, in this great moment— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04 That's what I was expecting you to actually explain, that's crazy. Col. Jannell MacAulay 44:07 I wasn't there, like, my mind was already like, “OK, gotta go again,” like, “When's the next thing?” like, “When is was my next three-week trip that I have to leave her, when is the next thing that I'm gonna miss in her life?” And, you know, we spend a lot of time living our lives, stressful moments, a stressful moment to stressful moment, and I wish that I could have learned earlier to embrace the moments in between, to see them, right? I mind-wandered through many of them, I was just worried, I was catastrophizing. I mean, how many of us spend time in the military? As soon as you get to your first, your next assignment, you're already worried about what your next one is, right? You're like, OK, what do I need to do? Like, like, yes. And you're for me as a joint-spouse couple, there was no protections for us back then. Like, I love that they're finally gone, and I better know, yes, right? I'm so grateful for that, because we did not have those protections. It was like, here's where he's going, here's where you're going, and unless you had a commander or a leader that cared enough to make a phone call, you're going separate ways. And so I wish that somebody would have told me then to stop worrying so much about the next thing and just live more in the moment, I would have saved myself a lot of extra stress, a lot of extra angst, and I would have had more joy. And so that's really what I want for this generation, and that's why I work so hard, and I'm so passionate about this, is because if I could do it again, that's what I would want to remember. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:31 So, with so many listening and watching, this is your opportunity to be, you know, something for many. What is the thing that they might do? A small thing they could do, just in their lives, to be a little bit better in their mental space and their mental capacity or performance. Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:48 Gosh, I have, like, an 8-hour course. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:51 I know. That’s why I was like, “Here’s a nugget everybody, pay attention.” Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:56 OK, I’m going to give you — can I give you three? Which ones to pick? The first one is to start practicing mindfulness, to start doing mental pushups. You cannot layer in productive thinking, you cannot pivot your mind unless you eliminate the noise. Like, that's the first thing you have to do. You have to be able to see the thoughts inside your head and make a conscious choice not to follow them. Because a lot of them are not providing value to you, right? And the skill set that does that is mental pushups, is mindfulness, and it's this idea of the definition of mindfulness is being in the present moment without any emotional reactivity or judgment. Like, just be here now without judgment, that's what it means. And it's a deliberate practice of continuously being here now without judgment, so that when you are in a moment with lots of judgment, you can filter right, and especially that's where greatness comes from. It's not because of a great moment, it's because of what you do in the moments you're given. Second thing is, for leaders, stop asking people, “How are you doing?” I want them to rephrase that question and ask, “What's going well for you today?” And the reason we do that is for those two reasons: The first one is when you ask someone how they're doing, you're gonna get — most people are just gonna give you like, “Busy,” right? “Good,” “Fine,” “Liiving the dream,” whatever, right? But did I, as a leader, get any information from you when you say any of those in response? No. And then what we do as leaders? We get, “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” And then we— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:36 Check the box, check the box, check the box. Col. Jannell MacAulay 47:37 Yes. And if you happen to have someone who's like, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you,” you're almost like, “Oh my God, good for you.” I didn't mean for you guys to tell me, because that's our cluster again, right? So I want leaders to start asking people what's going well for you, and that does two things. Now I'm going to get information from you based on your answer, and that information is also going to start training your mind and your psychological framework toward optimism and hope, because do you know the biggest problem for leaders today? I think is missing the hopeless people. We think that there's this binary of optimism and pessimism, and so the optimistic people, we can find them easy, and the pessimistic people, we can find them easy too, right? They're usually, I'm usually focused on the pessimism, because they're noisy and they're loud and they're annoying and they’re bothering us and they’re bothering the whole unit, right? And sometimes we're like, “Oh my gosh, Bob is so negative and angry,” like, “We should worry about Bob.” But the thing is, is that actually Bob's not your worry, because people who are pessimistic understand they're on a sliding scale. A pessimist thinks that there's a genuine belief that things could get worse, but if you believe things can get worse, you know they can also get better, right? Which is what optimism is. I genuinely believe things will get better. So, a pessimist — it's not binary. I want people at leaders to open up the aperture. There's optimism, pessimism, and then there's hopelessness and hope. That's the second thing. And then the last thing is leaders suffer from what I call compassion fatigue. OK, it's a very real thing. How many of us spend all day at work — it's kind of a combination of decision fatigue and compassion fat. You spend all day at work making decisions for other people, you make, you spend all day at work taking other people's problems, and if you're an empathetic person, like you take it on, right? You're like, “Oh my god, feel so bad, like airmen that are struggling with all these things.” Then you go home and someone at home says, “What's for dinner,” and you flip out about what's for dinner, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, where did that come from? Like, I didn't mean to snap, or someone in your — it's very important to you, and your whole life comes to you and needs you, needs your attention, and you're like, I have no more attention to give you, I have no more compassion to offer, because I am done, like I am burnt, so it's a very real thing, and it's not an excuse, I might have given people a label for what's happening, like it's this thing— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:57 I have compassion fatigue. Col. Jannell MacAulay 49:59 Which is very true, and it's a very real thing, and I'm not giving you an excuse, I'm telling you, you need to fix it, and here's how you need to every time, like the whole time you're at work during the day, you need to shed all the mental distress that happens. You need to shed the empathy, right? Your empathetic, the empathy that you use when you're in an interaction with someone builds like extra stress into your. It's actually in your like body, yes? Right? Like, exactly. you take on those physical, and it becomes a physical manifestation. You need to shed that. So, what I have is called a waterfall technique. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 50:36 Waterfall? Col. Jannell MacAulay 50:38 So when you're, yeah, yep, so when you're engaging with people, remember we don't want to be distracted and not paying attention. So, put your phone away once you invite someone in your office. I don't have it. It distracts you by 20% if you have it on your body or in your view, right? Just have it put away. So now you're more attentive. Then I'm going to listen to you when you tell me whatever's going on in your life, and I'm going to envision we're at the top of the waterfall. Visualization is very powerful for our minds, so we're going to visualize that waterfall, and I'm talking to you, we're having a conversation, I'm fully present. You might have some stuff going on in your life, like I might have to take a note, I might be OK, follow up, I might give you some mentorship, but when we're done, your problems go down the waterfall, right? Like, we want to feel, “Oh, I’m their commander.” No, it's still not your problem, right? The problem goes down the waterfall, so then the next person can come in. Now you're at the top of the waterfall again. I'm fully present with my next person that's coming in. I'm paying attention, I'm not thinking about the other conversation. Then when we're done, your problems get to go down the waterfall. It will protect your energy, it will protect your compassion, and so that when you go home, it'll just offer, you know. And then the other technique is before you walk in the door, do a mindful, mindful minute. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:48 Mindful minute right there. Col. Jannell MacAulay 51:49 Right. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:49 Well, I'm glad you shared three, because I think you know, I think that's what it's about when you're on your leadership journey, and I think leadership is a lifelong journey, and I think anything we can do better, not only to help others but to help ourselves as well, is really important. So, thank you for sharing that. Well, I want, before we close, I want to go into this moment, because you said yourself is a little bit vulnerable, you've written a book. Let's talk about Breathless, and this journey you've now undertaken. Col. Jannell MacAulay 52:17 So, Breathless is the story of mothers, and it's my story. And one of the women that worked on my Syria team with me, she was an Army officer, and we were both mothers of very young children at the time, and we also have two mothers in Syria that are sharing their stories with us, and they lost their children in a chemical attack. And so it's a story of mothers persevering through unimaginable odds, us working breathlessly to solve this problem, and basically having kind of this weight of the world on us to come up with a solution that would work and solve the problem, and then these mothers living in this horrible genocide, right, in this horrible time of a civil war, and under a ruthless dictator, and so they, the only reason why we're able to share their stories is because Assad, right, the liberation happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 53:16 I was like, I was going to say they’re actually featured in your book. Gotcha. Col. Jannell MacAulay 53:20 Yes, and we originally started writing this book without their stories, and then once Assad fell, like we reached out and we got two mothers to share their story, and one of the mothers, her children were just slightly older than my children, and she lost both of them. The other mother lost her daughter, and her daughter was in prison during the Arab Spring. Her son traded out with her daughter because she was afraid of the conditions and what was going to happen to her daughter in prison. So the brother traded out with his sister, and the mother didn't find out until — her name is Amsaeed — she did not find out that her son Saeed had died, executed with 25 other prisoners before Assad left the country, so she didn't find that out till after liberation, so she lost a son, she lost a daughter, this other mother had two children taken from her, and so the story is about both of our struggles. Sarin literally takes her breath away, and we were working breathlessly, you know, to help them, and just the story of what it means to be a mother, like what a mother's love, what a mother's heart will do. And I just talked to Amsaeed last week, we coordinated a Zoom together, and I got to hear

9 jun 2026 - 59 min

Answering the Bell - Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford ’97

U.S. Air Force Academy boxing coach Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford ’97 shares how the sport shaped his approach to leadership, service and mentoring the next generation of cadets. A strong conversation on resilience and growth. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/answering-bell-mark-clifford-97/?token=a4732c47520c409f89accc34e4c485c3] | FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/answering-bell-mark-clifford-97/?token=a4732c47520c409f89accc34e4c485c3] COACH CLIFFORD'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS * Leadership is about others, not you. Elevate the people around you—when your team wins, you win. * Iron sharpens iron. Seek (and create) hard reps, tougher opponents, and uncomfortable situations to build real capability. * Look for “dogs,” not resumes. Prioritize competitiveness, resilience, and willingness to get hit and keep going over pedigree. * Turn on the hot water. Know when it’s time to flip the switch from relaxed and joking to locked-in, all-business execution. * Take the punch, then execute. Composure after getting hit—physically or metaphorically—is the true test of a leader. * Accountability and care must coexist. You can deeply care for people and still enforce standards, discipline, and consequences. * Bloom where you’re planted. Be the best where you are before chasing the next opportunity; stop leading with the exit plan. * Don’t lead only with rank. Some of the strongest leaders on his team lead through work ethic, example, and quiet influence. * Use mentors; don’t go it alone. Pick up the phone, ask for help, and learn from those who’ve led through similar moments. * Family and support systems are force multipliers. A stable, supportive home front enables you to show up fully for the mission. CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Intro: “Sometimes leadership means the mission stopped being about you” + Mark’s accolades 00:01:40 – From hoops to the ring: leaving basketball, discovering boxing, and Coach Weichers’ influence 00:03:55 – Finding “dogs”: how Mark recruits scrappy, resilient cadets and builds national champions 00:07:57 – Growing up competitive: family, academics-first father and rivalry with his brother 00:11:09 – Leadership from the ring: iron sharpening iron and elevating everyone on the team 00:14:30 – Warrior mindset: teaching cadets to take a punch, stay composed and execute a plan 00:19:00 – Riding the emotional highs and lows: coaching, winning, losing and not burning out 00:21:08 – Accountability with heart: tough call in Korea, stripes, and good order and discipline 00:24:36 – Competing together: peer squadron commanders, shared struggle and mutual support 00:28:05 – When you want to quit: advice Col. Clifford got, what he tells cadets now and “bloom where you’re planted” 00:32:16 – Quiet leaders and culture: cadets who lead through work ethic and example 00:37:23 – Daily leadership reps: mental prep, PE classes, influence in the athletic department 00:43:11 – Talk to young Col. Clifford: trust the process, shake off negativity and the power of family support ABOUT BIO Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford, a 1997 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy and former National Collegiate Boxing Association champion, is in his second season as head coach of the Air Force boxing program after leading the women’s team to its first NCBA national title in his debut season, highlighted by a program-record four individual champions and a sweep of the men’s and women’s NCBA Western Regional titles. A former team captain and three-time NCBA All-American as a cadet, Col. Clifford also served two stints as an assistant coach, contributing to four national team championships and 21 individual national champions. He retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel after 20 years of service, including assignments as director of fuel operations for Air Force One, commander roles in Hawaii and South Korea, combat tours supporting Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, and work on the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Following his military career, Col. Clifford held leadership positions at Grand Canyon University and the DREAM Foundation, focusing on sports management education and mentorship opportunities for students. He earned a master’s degree from the University of Maryland Global Campus and a doctorate from the University of New Mexico. CONNECT WITH MARK LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-clifford/] | FALCON ATHLETICS [https://goairforcefalcons.com/sports/boxing/roster/coaches/dr-mark-clifford/2701] CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org] <---> Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org] Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org] ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL] | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://usafa.org/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS: Guest, Coach Mark Clifford ’97 | Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz ’99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Sometimes leadership means realizing the mission stopped being about you a long time ago. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Mark Clifford, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Col. Mark Clifford 0:14 Thanks for having me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15 Absolutely, you know, we could jump right in, but before I do, I have to just talk about this. I had to write this down to make sure I didn't miss it. Boxing team captain, obviously; three-time Wing Open champ; three-time regional champ, three-time National Collegiate Boxing Association All-American, and the national champion of the NCBA your senior year. Col. Mark Clifford 0:33 Yes, ma'am. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34 I mean, that's just, and that's just as a cadet. Then you went on to serve 20 years in the Air Force as a logistics readiness officer, you know, you're commanding and you're leading squadrons. In addition to that, on the higher education side, assistant dean at Grand Canyon University in sports business. Col. Mark Clifford 0:49 Yes, yeah, ran the sport management program when I first got there, probably a year after I got there, just to get my feet wet with higher ed, and then was elevated to the assistant dean of the College of Business. And so it was, it was fun, it was amazing, it was very different from what you're used to in the military, because I tried to come in with a little bit of military mindset, but it’s a civilian institution, so you know, just a little bit different, just bringing myself there and seeing what happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:13 Well, you know, I guess what it shows is that you're not afraid to jump in and do, you know, something new. And I think that's — we'll probably discover that in the conversation today. So, maybe where we can start is the fact that you are back at USAFA as the boxing coach. You're here now running and leading the program that shaped you. Col. Mark Clifford 1:31 Yes. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:32 Let's talk about that. Col. Mark Clifford 1:33 Yes, let's talk about — I mean, I love the program. You know, I came into the Academy, went to the Prep School, on a five-year plan, like some of us that need a little extra help, little extra year, you know. I took my time and really understand that came in, I'm such a competitor. I was playing basketball at the Prep School, came in my freshman year, hoping to be on the basketball team, worked really hard, did all things the coaches asked me to do, still sat the bench, and so, like a lot of cadets, like every cadet, even our women now have to take boxing class, you know, as a mandatory class. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:04 When did that start? What year? Do you remember? Col. Mark Clifford 2:07 I want to say 2017 is when the women started. It's always been instituted for our men. So my freshman year I did really well in the class, to the point where I had to box our assistant coach at the time, Ray Carter, for my GR, my test. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:22 Did you get an A? Col. Mark Clifford 2:23 I got an A. But it hurt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:26 For him? Col. Mark Clifford 2:27 Heck no! He was the one punching me. He busted me up pretty good, but I still got the A in the class, and coaches — the same system I use today — is trying to find cadets in boxing class that are competitors that are looking to do more than just be either a cadet or on the team that they're on or ride a bench. I got tired of riding the bench behind a couple of folks until sophomore year, coach came and said, “Hey, you still interested in boxing?” I quit basketball, went to boxing and the rest is history. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:58 You didn't look back at all. Col. Mark Clifford 2:59 No, you know it's hard to look back because it's shaped — I think we all kind of think back to our cadet years. I know I do sometimes, and kind of reminisce about, “What if?” I remember walking across the street one time, and my brother was ahead of me in ’90s — Class of ’96 — on the football team, and I was walking across the street as a freshman to basketball practice and ran across Coach Fisher DeBerry. “Hey, Clifford, will you come play football with me?” And so, you always think about opportunities that kind of cross your path, and I think about what would have happened if I would have done something different. I don't know if this story would be as successful as it is, based off of what I've learned in boxing and where I am today. And so, I'm very thankful for the program. I'm thankful for Coach Eddie Weichers, who shaped me, was a father figure for us when we were here. And you know, it's tough being a cadet, so you got to have allies and friends and people and mentors, and he was definitely one for me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:55 Well, I'd love to know, you know — he saw you in class and discovered that talent. How are you finding potential nowadays in the cadets for the program? Because you just happened to have the women who defended a national champion, won it. So, two years now have been the NCBA national champs. Col. Mark Clifford 4:15 I think it's a couple of things I look for. One is, how scrappy are you? I think it was easy at Grand Canyon University to find, you know, the era of COVID, and the resiliency wasn't quite the same as what I remembered when I was here as assistant coach, and as a captain and as a major, as well. The cadets are different, the mentality is different, and so kind of make it simple, I'm looking for dogs, I'm looking for cadets that a) are excited to fight, are not afraid to box, aren't afraid to get hit, love the intensity of the sport, and I can shape that, and you know, the potential piece of that is, can they throw a pretty good punch, and can they take a punch, and they're not, you know, they're not jumping out of the ring with that. That kind of translates into what we're looking for with all of our officers and all officer candidates, is making sure that they can stay there and take a punch, collect themselves, and then go back and execute, right? And so that's what I'm looking for, and I've tried to find those in classes, and you know, a lot of times it's a lot of the athletes. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:21 Right. Col. Mark Clifford 5:22 Because they're recruited here for other reasons, well, and other… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:24 Other sports. Col. Mark Clifford 5:25 Other sports, or whatever, and they want to be competitive, and as a freshman and a sophomore. It's tough, because you got juniors and seniors who have experience on the team. They're out there performing, and you're sitting on the bench, well, you know, I get you in the sport where you don’t have to sit the bench. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:43 That's right. Col. Mark Clifford 5:44 It's top person wins. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:45 So when I think about the team that you formulate and you grow, and they continue to hone in our craft, is it always the athletes that you kind of, that maybe have been benchwarmers, or have you found the diamonds in the rough that maybe have never fought in their lives, and never — that kind of surprise you, that have risen to the top? Col. Mark Clifford 6:04 You know, there are a lot of diamonds in the rough, there are a lot of, but back to what, there's a lot of cadets that come here that aren't necessarily on a divisional, we're lucky because we have 25% of our population at the Academy are divisional athletes. But there are so many other young cadets that are just as competitive, just as athletic, and looking for something else, and how do you give them something, right? And when they get to come to the Wing Open and see their classmates in the center of Clune Arena, and that thing is filled with all the rest of the Cadet Wing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:37 Yes, and grads and the community. Col. Mark Clifford 6:39 And the community. They put the floor seats right there, you can sit ringside, it's an amazing thing. How do I be a part of it? And my philosophy is simple: If you enter the Wing Open and you win, then you're the person that represents this for regions and nationals. There's no favoritism, because I quote, unquote, recruited Naviere as a freshman. Now she's a senior, well, the senior gets her butt whooped, I'm taking a freshman. And so it's a very fair system, and so you find those diamonds in the rough. I'll give you one — two-time national champ. She's our team captain this year, Elise Bell. I don't think she's ever fought in her life. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:16 Wow. Col. Mark Clifford 7:16 When I walked in the gym last year, my first year, I just noticed her work ethic. How do you just pour into something like that and refine that in the gym to become a national champ. And last year — I just love to tell her story, because last year I believe in regionals and nationals, every first round she lost 5-0 to the judges. She was losing, and she won every bout. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:42 Interesting. Col. Mark Clifford 7:43 So it's just — you find those, and I'm hoping to find more of those cadets that just have that same energy, that resilience, that toughness and courage, really, and willingness to do what we ask you to do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:58 So, were you like that growing up? Were you someone that had this mindset of, you know, a work ethic and, you know, scrappy, you know, before even getting into boxing? Were you like that as a kid? Col. Mark Clifford 8:09 I was just a competitor, and that's my father, that's my mother, that's my grandmother, my father's side, who was very — everything had to be put into place. My father was born in 1929 in Washington, D.C., went to Howard University, ROTC post-Tuskegee, and entered the Air Force through ROTC in 1949. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:41 Wow. Col. Mark Clifford 8:42 So his thing was academics, always. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:45 Yes. Col. Mark Clifford 8:45 But I had a brother who was a year ahead of me, and it was academics for both of us. But how do you best the guy that's right next to you? Like, it was always just — my brother's name is Larry. That's what Larry and I always did, whether it was girls or sports, school, right? Yeah, it was always Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:02 You drove each other. Col. Mark Clifford 9:03 We drove each other, and it's just — it was amazing. You don't realize that until you're older, and so you go, “Yeah, that's what that did.” And so I think I was always just, 1) I was always a competitor, like I wasn't always the best, but I'd like to try to strive to be, and so that was just kind of how I was shaped. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22 So was your dad very excited when you — you were recruited to the Academy, is that correct? Col. Mark Clifford 9:28 My dad kind of wanted me to go — more so than maybe I wanted to go. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34 When did you realize, like — because obviously you were on the five-year plan, right? So I think you had a couple of times to make a decision, like, “I’m good,” but you stayed. So when was it that it really connected with you that this is where I want to be, and I want to stay. Col. Mark Clifford 9:47 Probably after my sophomore year. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:50 OK. Col. Mark Clifford 9:50 Yeah, because my first three years, like, I wanted to play basketball so bad. I was trying to recruit myself. This is when you had to go send out your videotape. You know what I’m saying. You’re there with me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:01 Yes, yes, paper. Email's not the thing back then. All paper. Col. Mark Clifford 10:05 All paper. I’m trying to send videotapes out. Spring break at the Prep School, I think I went to Cal Riverside and tried to meet with the coach and drop off my tape. That's how bad I wanted to play basketball, right, and then I found success in boxing, and it was, I think, why go anywhere else? You start to realize, you get over, like, you're gonna have a job when you graduate. I don't have to look for a job, I don't have to go out there and struggle. I'm gonna get what I want to do out of the military, and it's gonna be a five-year thing for me, and then I'm out, right? And so I think that's what it was. I think it was my sophomore year, and I was going, my grades are terrible. I could say that now. It was — but no one's ever asked me for my GPA. I still was able to get a doctorate. Like, there's things that happen in your life that you'll still be able to achieve success, even though you weren't as great at it before. And so, yeah, I think it was just the realization of, “I could do this.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:09 So in that journey of, you know, wanting to play basketball so bad, finding a space and a place that really you started to hone in on yourself in boxing, and then, you know, went into the Air Force, you were leading. What have you found out about yourself in a leadership perspective through those different situations, whether you ended up not playing basketball or something that went really well for you, like national champ? Col. Mark Clifford 11:35 I think just overall leadership was the ability for me to impact others to be successful, and I think that's what I took out of boxing, because it is an individual sport, but it's very team-oriented. We don't put banners on the wall that say “national champion” without a team mentality to make sure that our teammate, left and right of us, are also excelling. And so, in a small sport like boxing, at a time where I boxed, there was 12 weight classes, but you're boxing the guy above a weight and below a weight, because you're trying to make that person better, iron sharpens iron. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:10 Right. Col. Mark Clifford 12:10 I also had, I was a 172-, 175-pounder boxing the heavyweight, because in my mind was no one's gonna hit me as hard as this guy is gonna hit me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:19 That's right. Col. Mark Clifford 12:20 And so if I can stand and get and last with this guy, I can last with anybody in college boxing. And that flowed for me into the military of — and part of my philosophy was how do I elevate everybody else, because I realized here at the Academy it's not about us, right? We're in the people business to make sure people around us are elevated, have the things that they need, resources they need to make sure that they're doing the job the best of their ability. Because then the unit does better as a team. The wing does better as a team. It's not about us individually. And so I think for me being able to translate that out of boxing into my Air Force career was part of what shaped me as a leader to make myself successful. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:02 Did you find yourself seeing if anyone could take a punch from you in your Air Force uniform, or how did you do that? Col. Mark Clifford 13:10 Well, you know, I punch my words when I know you can't put your hands on people. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:16 Of course. Col. Mark Clifford 13:19 You know, back in the early days, you know, I think the chief excused me from a meeting, and the meeting was back behind the fuel watershed. I can't remember… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:32 Fair enough. Col. Mark Clifford 13:33 Some wall-to-wall training that was going on with other individuals, but hey, chief said it was good. Roger that chief. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:40 That's hilarious. Col. Mark Clifford 13:41 Yeah, no, you know, you don't put your hands on people. I used to have to tell people, “Don't let my smile fool you,” you know. I like to have a good time, I enjoy myself, I enjoy the people that I'm around. Also, I know our job is very serious, and I was very serious about our job. And so, part of my leadership philosophy was always — my dad's thing was the Golden Rule, you know, treat people the way that you want to be treated. And I always — there's some things here at the Academy that I didn't love, so I took away from, “I'm not going to be that type of person,” into accountability, holding people accountable, myself included. And so even at the Academy, as a knucklehead cadet, I did goofy stuff. I'd be the first one to say, yeah, I take my lumps, march my tours, take my Form 10, do what you need to do, but just survive the place and learn from it, and it shapes you out as a leader. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:31 Absolutely. You know, I'm curious, because I think about — you just said, “I like to have fun,” and you know, “but don't let my smile fool you.” You know, when you think about boxing and the mentality you have to have to literally stand across from somebody and hit someone, or take a punch, or you know, be hit back. How do you train that kind of mindset? Because I have to think it parallels a lot with the fact that we are developing warfighters. You know, how do you train that? Col. Mark Clifford 14:57 Yeah, you know, that's kind of the bottom line of the boxing class. It's not about finding championship boxers. The boxing class is about exactly what you just outlined. It's how do you, as an individual, put a strategy and plan together knowing that you have an adversary across the ring that's going to hurt you. Like, the object of the game is to punch you. Pros is more so to hurt you. College boxing, amateurs, more to score more points than you. Bottom line, they'll hurt you, and that mentality of how do you compose yourself? Do the things that we asked you to do: a) defend yourself, b) have an offensive plan, even if you're losing, how do you compose yourself? Right, part of that warrior spirit is making sure that we always have that mindset of how we're going to achieve and beat our adversaries, and I think that's the bottom line of the boxing class. It's just, how do we do that? So, the mindset is exactly that, is you know you're gonna get punched, but can you punch that person when they punch you? Can you put some other things in place that I gave you tools — that I gave you, head movement, defensive movement — to take those punches away, right? From a strategic standpoint, and then be offensive, and then score your points. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11 Right. Col. Mark Clifford 16:11 And so that's the mentality we try to have boxers to make sure that this is a sport where you're gonna get hit. Once you get past that hurdle, it's good, right? It's how you work on all these other skill sets that make you better than your opponent. And if the other person's just as skilled as you are, what's the edge that we get? And I think that's part of our mental preparation that we do as well as our physical preparation. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:34 So I think about you shaping that for the team, both the men and women. How was that shaped for you? Was that your coach at the time, Eddie Weichers? Was that Wiechers? Was that someone in your family? Who were those mentors in your life? Col. Mark Clifford 16:45 For me, it was Eddie Weichers and Ray Carter. Ray Carter was an enlisted assistant coach, and he was four-time, I think, All-Air Force heavyweight champ. Those two were instrumental for me, especially during my career times, before my time as a boxer, because I would work hard, work out a lot with Coach Carter, because the same mentality helped with a heavyweight. If this big joker can hit me, I can take the punch… He's also going to teach me some things. I mean, Coach Weichers was the same. It was the mental piece that his thing was knowing to turn on the hot water, and it was because I would have a good time, enjoy practice, have fun with the guys, but when you step in that ring, turn the hot water on, it's all about business. So, then, when you step out, turn it back on to cold, go back to goofing off and doing things that you do, but you get in there, it's all about business. And so, how do you train your mind to go, like, man, “I gotta go to war right now?” And it was, you know, I had a preparation before I got to the ring, and some things that I did that helped me mentally prepare before I jumped in there, but… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:52 What did you do? Col. Mark Clifford 17:53 You know, again, it was the Walkman CD Walkman, the CD Walkman. And I couldn't jump around too much because it was Skip. Yeah, the CB was skip had the little baby headphones had my little do rag on and I would just zone out on some music, I would zone out on music until it was time for me to get up and do my physical warm up with some jumping some rope shadow boxing and maybe little hand mitts with the coach before I jumped in the ring, but OK, yeah, it was a, you know, I couldn't jump around too much. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:25 It would skip, that's true. Now they just have — they don't have to have anything connected, just put in their ears. Col. Mark Clifford 18:30 I'm jealous about it, to be honest. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:35 So I imagine when you're coaching, and I'm saying I imagine because I've not coached ever to this level. I coach my son's little league basketball team, but which is a whole different level of coaching, but what I find curious is, have you ever found yourself in the feeling of, because you know how it felt when you win, when you lose, and when you watch your cadets going through that, how does that affect you as a coach? Col. Mark Clifford 19:01 Yes, I'm learning to not, I'm learning to not ride the emotion like they do, but I definitely did my first year, I think, as an assistant coach. So, I was assistant coach with Coach Wishers five years total as active duty officer, and that was different because I was on the sideline, he was the main guy, I was a support guy, but when you're the head guy, you're the one that gives the kids advice, giving them the strategy, and then really I felt it at nationals, especially when we started to win in with our women, we our first female won in the first half of the day, a freshman, I don't know if she was expected to win. She didn't expect to win, but in our hearts, in our minds, we knew. And then this is the motion, because I know how hard they work and what it takes to get your hand raised, because I came up short my first two years when I'm the guy standing with my hands down, the other guy's hand is raised, and then getting my hand raised my senior year was the most amazing feeling. I rode that same emotion when we lost, when we won, and I was worn out and tired. So I'm trying to train myself not to try to ride that emotion, but it's hard, like you know. I want to be in there with them, and I feel the same things that they feel, because I went through that same process they went through. And so it's interesting dynamic because I'm trying to peel myself away from mine. I just haven't detached yet. I think I'm still emotionally and mentally driven by what happens with our cadets, and it's a weird feeling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:36 I imagine as a leader that's probably a common challenge you have because you care so deeply about your team, like family, that you do get emotional, right, and that might even be one of the sharpest knives in your, in your kit. It's just, you know, how you employ it, I guess. Col. Mark Clifford 20:52 Yeah, you know, that reminds me of a really tough situation when I was a commander in Korea. Back to, had to hold somebody accountable with that person. Part of the discipline action was taking a strike, right, blah blah blah, the things that happened for something negative, right, but he's such a good person, and it was a first, first mistake, but it was a big one, and what that led to was a person dropping rank, but then hitting higher tenure, and couldn't test for the next strike, and so I really struggled with that, and had really tough conversations with not only the group chief, but my commander, right, and my chief, my first sergeant. Is this really the right thing for this individual? I think ultimately for good organ discipline. Yes, I think emotionally because it was a small unit. We were in Korea, his, he had his wife there, I had my family there, right? So they became friends, close, right, close enough, because such a small group, and that's the type of organization that I like to have, because I think if it's you, almost play that disappointment role or daddy role, or whatever, however you want to characterize it, that leadership style, but it was, man, you really got to depend on your brother or sister, you let that person down, and you let us all down. Yes, and so that's part of my leadership style, especially in Korea. I took over for a commander that was let go and fired, and so there was a whole cultural change I had to do, so that was when the “don't let the smile full you” happened, right? And you just had to make sure that you held people accountable. That was one of the tough ones where emotionally you're going, "Man, am I making the right call?” Organizationally, absolutely. Personally, for that individual, it was tough. It was tough. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:36 How did those moments stretch you as a leader? I find that fascinating, because you do. You have such a warm and, you know, fun personality about you. I mean, I think when you think about command and the decisions you've had to make at different times, both in the ring, out of the ring, in uniform, et cetera. How did you grow as a leader? Col. Mark Clifford 22:53 I think we all grow every day. I think, for me, I lean a lot on my mentors. I'm not afraid to ask for help, right? I learned that early in my career, that it took me a while, because I was in the way, but it took me a while to understand that I can pick up the phone and ask somebody for help, and they're going to help you, because, as an organization, our Air Force, our Space Force is all about making sure people are successful. We don't set people up for failure. Why? Because if one individual fails, yeah. So I think for me making those tough calls was was challenging, because because of my leadership style. I think it was, I want people to get along, I want our team to be meet the standard of excellence, if not exceeded. I want us to be always on that front edge, because I'm a competitor. Yes, I want to be the best, but also that comes with accountability and tough decisions. And I think when you have to be in the moment, make some of those tough decisions, that's you just have to go back and reflect. You have to lean on people that do the same thing. I had a great group of fellow squadron commanders at my first command in Hawaii, that's a really terrible basis to go to, that's why I stayed there for 20, that's why I stayed there for 20. The plan was five. Oh, yes, yeah, 20 happened because I had some great people around me, and I, and the bases weren't bad either, and so my family loved it, and we saw some rough assignments, but it ended up being great, but I can lean on my fellow squadron commanders if I had some enough time. But it was just a bitch session, or if it was a leadership lesson. Most of us were about the same year group, age group. I think one or two of the commanders was a year or two ahead of me, but it was just — we weren't competing with each other. We were making sure we were all competing together and being successful together. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:53 I think about that theme of being a competitor, and I remember you telling me about your brother and your dad. So, has there been a continued, you know, competition, and how you guys have done in your, in your careers and in life, or have you leaned back to your dad, like, “Hey, Dad, so how do you go about this?” Col. Mark Clifford 25:09 No, you know, we unfortunately lost my dad a couple years ago. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:13 Oh, I’m sorry. Col. Mark Clifford 25:13 No, it's OK; 94 years of an amazing life. I found some old pictures of him and Chappie James, which is pretty — talk about history and legacy. But no, I think my brother — I found out — so, my brother left after his sophomore year. He hadn't finished the Academy. He stuck around here another year, so my sophomore year, and I really came to find out, although we competed against each other our entire lives, he was my No. 1 fan, and I didn’t even know it. It was like — he would tell me stories of, I think, my first Wing Open, maybe my second Wing Open — my first Wing Open sophomore year, that he, for the first time, said some cuss words next to my dad because they were in the stands, because he was cheering for me, and it was just funny to hear, like, we're grown-ups, but you can't cuss in front of my dad. You don’t say those things. He was like, “Oh no, Dad's gonna get me.” But no, I think since then it's been a really supportive relationship, and like anything that I do, he'll call me as soon as we're competing anywhere as a coach now, ask how we did, how the cadets did, he said he's proud of me, I'm proud of him too, and he's doing real estate in Southern California with his wife and his family. So it was weird to see that, or hear that from him, because it was always like… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:31 Yeah, you were always like mmmm mmmm. Looking over your shoulders. Col. Mark Clifford 26:35 Yeah, like who’s going to get who? But it was awesome. It was kind of cool. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:38 I love that, and I'm just thinking, you know, I'm sorry to hear of your dad passing, but I'm sure throughout those years you had many calls to him about, you know, some of those decisions you had to make in uniform, and I'm sure he was extremely proud of you making it a career. Col. Mark Clifford 26:51 Yeah, yeah, I think he also was surprised I lasted as long as I did, just because I was so against it early on in my career. But no, I've been super proud, and it was always good to come home and just kind of share some stories with him, and he would reflect back on his stories, and he was a fighter pilot, and so just some of his fighter-pilot stories, and you know, the things that shaped me — talk about moments in your career and moments that shaped his career. It was just — it’s just cool to have somebody like that in a different era that can share the different challenges, but also the same. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:31 That's a good point. Yeah. Col. Mark Clifford 27:32 I think that's what's interesting with the military, like, and coming back to the Academy is a perfect example. Like, there's challenges that we have, they're kind of the same that we've had, probably 15 years ago when I was here. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:45 Like a cycle. Col. Mark Clifford 27:46 It’s a cycle. Yeah. So it's like now you have new leaders, how do they work through these different challenges differently than we did before? Not that we need to repeat history, but at the same time, you know what I'm saying, it just becomes a cyclical thing, that was how do we work. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:03 How do we navigate that? Yeah. Col. Mark Clifford 28:05 The same stuff, yeah. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:06 I want to go back to something you said, and I think it probably plays into some of the cadets that you work with, and or help to coach. You talked about how you weren't sure you wanted to go to the Academy, and staying, you know. The idea of quitting is where I'm really kind of going. What advice have you received to help you not quit, or to kind of push through when you wanted to quit? And have you seen that with cadets, and how are you navigating that? Col. Mark Clifford 28:29 Yes, and yes. I think the best advice I received when I was thinking about quitting was, “Just really ask yourself why, what's the purpose, and then where you're going to go, like what's the plan?” And that's what was one of my dad's themes was, especially when I got out, was looking to navigate civilian jobs, right, but you don't leave something unless you got something else in your other hand. And so I was like, “How do you really focus in on being the best at where you're at, right, before you even think about stepping somewhere else?” And I had to reflect on that, especially as a cadet, was I really being the best at where I was as a freshman? Sophomore, I could tell you no, because I wanted so many other things, and it wasn't had anything to do with the Academy, had nothing to do with the Academy, but you know… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:21 You were focused on basketball… Col. Mark Clifford 29:23 Focused on other things until I could really be the best at all the things, and it's a balance here at the Academy — academically, militarily, athletically. I wanted to be the best athletically. How do I go win a national championship as the boxer? And so I found out that you've got to prioritize, which is… Right? We all had to do that. We all have to do that in our lives today. And so my priority was boxing, because I wanted to be great at athletics; academics, because I knew I can't get out of this place unless academics met the standard. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:01 And you couldn’t box here… Col. Mark Clifford 30:03 And I couldn’t do that without the academics. My dad saying, like, “You don't do anything else unless your academics are where they need to be.” And lastly — it was OK for me militarily. I can make the military stuff work. It wasn't my party. Maybe I should have bowed a little bit more. So I share that with our cadets. Is how do you balance those things that want to make you successful? The one thing I tell the cadets now is, because I've been in the civilian world, it's tough. Like, if you leave here, you got to navigate A, go get a degree, and then B, trying to find a job which meets your standard and the standard of living that you want to have, it's going to be difficult. It's not — and so it's still a cadet's choice. Yes, and we've talked to them about, like, all right, make sure you put things in place to make yourself successful. But I try to give them same advice. I said, “There's no other place outside of the three military academies where you’re going to go through a really tough time, you're going to have really awesome friends, you're gonna have a great experience, and, oh, by the way, you have a job, and you graduate — with free medical and dental, like that stuff's not cheap. Yeah, so I, you know, I think I share those things with the cadets, especially when they talk about leaving. And then I like to share — I try not to go back to, “Oh, back in my day” with that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:19 Because our day was a long time ago. Col. Mark Clifford 31:21 Now you didn’t have to say it out loud. I think we know that, but it's true, you know, it's there are still some challenges out there, but they have to navigate the waters, and there's some things that they do differently now at the Academy that we did when we were at the Academy, but this is a really cool place. It's a great place to be from. It's a great place to put on a resume when you decide to get out of the military after your obligation. It's a great place because they're gonna give you a job and occupation. You get to fly jets if that's what you want to do. There's so many opportunities here that the cadets have. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:59 Yes. Col. Mark Clifford 31:59 And I just overload them with that, because I think it is an amazing place. And the reason why I come back to it, because I think so highly of what it's done for me and shaped me. How can I do that for others and mentor others to make sure that they have a similar experience, but a successful one, no matter what their story is. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:17 Can you share an example of a cadet that surprised you from a leadership perspective, because of their work with you and their time in the ring. Col. Mark Clifford 32:25 Well, it's hard. So I'm only in my second year. I've got a couple of seniors this year. Elise Bell is one of them. Her fiancé, Kamari Jackson, is a cadet I met when I was here. He was starting his junior year, he's coming off a neck injury, and I challenged him because he's hanging around the gym. I didn't know why. Now I know why. I thought it was boxing, it wasn't. It was Elise, but I'm good with that, you know. I would whisper in Elise's ear, try to get him back, because he was really good as a freshman. Then got hurt, but he's another young man that's just took leadership by the horn. Came in back this year, I challenged him to be at a certain weight. He said, “Coach, I'm coming back, I want to win it. I made weight.” I didn't think he was going to make the weight his first semester, fall semester. He was a squadron commander, plate is full but still made it down. Was one of those — he wasn't our team captain, but he was a team captain. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:26 Yes. Col. Mark Clifford 33:27 It was just one of those… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:28 …leading without rank or title. Col. Mark Clifford 33:30 You didn't need it, yeah, but he just had that. He has an aura. I wouldn't say he surprised me. I just think it was just one of those success stories where you're going, man. I love to have a team like this that just — and we do. They lead in their own way. We've got some quiet ones; I've got some vocal ones. I've got ones — our senior this year, our heavyweight, the one that won the Wing Open, he did it with his work ethic. Elise Bell, she leads with her work ethic. There are different ways of leading in the gym, and I try to harness that, and then elevate those that are doing it, making sure the team sees what they're doing. There's a young lady, she's very quiet, prior enlisted two-time national champ now. She's won three Wing Opens, she's gonna probably get her fourth as a senior, she's gonna be our team captain this year, because she's quiet, but it brings out her show, forces her to use her voice a little bit more, because she does it quietly with her work ethic in the corner. But you all see her because she's always in the ring and she's always working. So, I wouldn't say they surprised me just yet. I haven't had so many surprises just yet, but I've had some that has solidified my resolve in why I came back because they understand where they're going, they're learning what leadership is, because you don't always have to vocally stand on the pedestal and be the person on top to be a leader, and I love that piece of this. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:56 So, I'm sure maybe this is a silly question, but obviously you have been assistant coach in the past. What made you come back as head coach? Col. Mark Clifford 35:03 It's a silly question, Naviere. These cadets — no, this place is special. I love the Athletic Department. I mean, back to what it's done for me: I had the opportunity to come back as a young captain, working in the athletic department, was able to get a doctorate degree out of this place, was able to come back again and be around the cadets to learn more from Coach Eddie Weichers. And I think all of those parts and pieces helped develop me, because it put me in positions where I was able to grab jobs and be in positions to be successful. I had no business picking up a squadron command the second time I was here, but I was able to pick up the squadron command, because I had people pulling for me, pushing for me, and that's what you go back to, like you said before, what helped shape you, and that it's just the people around here that help shape me. And how do I come back and give back to an institution, to a department that really shaped me as an individual? And that's what I'm doing. I think I come back because it's — I want to see the cadets who struggled like me, and I find them in class too, that are debating whether they want to be or not, looking for something else to be a part of, and I always invite them to be part of the boxing family, because I know what boxing did for me and others who went through this program that were competitive, that couldn't make another team, or wasn't on a different team that wanted to show their skill that wanted to balance something from the academic side, because that is so stressful. Punching something is very stress relieving. There's something about it — especially if I can punch something in the face in front of other people and not get in trouble — I was doing it. And so I think being able to come back and give that opportunity to other cadets and then watch them flourish with it and grow with it, I think is why I'm back. And so I'm thankful for the athletic department. I'm thankful for the Academy. So, how do I pay it forward in my way, paying it forward? This is my way of paying it forward. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:02 I love that. Well, I want to ask you something that we ask our guests on this, because it's really about how you continue to hone your skills as a leader through all the journeys, right? In uniform, out of uniform, in the private sector, higher education, etc. What is something you do every day to be better as a leader? Col. Mark Clifford 37:23 Well, you know, I think is internally, “How do I have an impact,” as a head coach in the athletic department, and I'm not an NCAA sport like some of our other coaches. How do I impact people around me in my sphere of influence? It's very different now when you're an officer, when you're a commander, you have entire unit that you have impact on. Mine are smaller. One, it's internally with my team, is how do I lead and impact my team, and so I want to make sure that I'm always prepared to support our cadets through practice, having a plan for them so they know when they walk in the door what we're supposed to do. Because I think that's important from a discipline standpoint of knowing and understanding what I have to do when I get to the gym, and what my end goal is. And I always come in for that mentally prepared, and then mentally preparing them for the rest of the season, because we have a long season. And then I always think about my series of influence. I'm in the athletic department on the physical education side. How do I make sure I am prepared for the other cadets in classes that aren't on the team? Make sure they have a positive experience in PE class, but also I make sure they know that I'm a grad. I make sure that they know I'm a high-level guy, because I think there's value in that when they can always ask questions that are driven towards operational air force, not necessarily about this particular class. So I make sure I'm prepared for those cadets, and then how do I then allow myself to be available for the rest of the department, not only the physical education department, but our athletic directors, and making sure that I'm a resource. I've been here before, right? I understand something. I may not have all the answers, but I'm willing to help the support. I'm always preparing myself daily for the cadets and the staff and the folks around me that my sphere of influence has, at least the best part of me every time I can work. And so I think daily for me it's a mental preparation, but also, you know, prepping for the day of the day of, from a leadership perspective, because my leadership role is very different now than what it was when you're active duty, when you're sitting at Grand Canyon University as a dean or assistant dean, right? Your influence is very different. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:40 So mentally you prepare yourself. What does that look like as far as like activity, right? So, are you taking care of yourself physically, so that you have the capacity to do more? Are you — I'm just curious, like, what does that look like when you say you're preparing yourself? Col. Mark Clifford 39:56 I do a couple of things. I think in the morning when I get up, I have a cup of coffee, and we typically — my wife and I typically watch the news together. It is thinking about the impacts of what happens in our world, how that impacts our Academy. I don't think — there's very little ripple effect that gets to the cadet, but also understanding why what's happening in our world is important to a cadet. I always try to prepare myself for those conversations, just in case they come up, and they have come up in classes sometimes. But I just give my perspective more so. Physically, I hit the gym, I work in a gym, so my wife says I have no excuse, at least you better be in a gym using equipment. I physically do that, and then I try to make sure I walk through our gym and put pieces together, equipment together, and make sure the equipment's in place and ready for our cadets, and sometimes I box and stuff. I gotta stay sharp. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:01 I was gonna ask, you know, how that you did with what was his name, the assistant coach at the time, Ray… Col. Mark Clifford 41:06 Ray Carter. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:07 Yes, are you ever across in the ring with someone; with a cadet? Col. Mark Clifford 41:12 My first year, I did. My last year, I let the young captains and majors do that. I realized that my mind will say do something — move out the way. I don't move out the way as quick as I used to, but I think I do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:27 Then you feel that you didn’t. Col. Mark Clifford 41:12 Exactly. I didn’t. Never let the cadets know they got you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:33 That's funny. All right, I want to ask you one more question. What's something, if you could have a conversation with young Mark as a cadet today, what would you tell yourself? Col. Mark Clifford 41:44 I think the one thing I would tell myself is, trust the process, be the best that you can be, where you are, and where you're playing it, and do that to the best of your ability, and then shake off the negativity and the nonsense. I had some great friends here, but also some friends that didn't want to be here either, and so you feed off that negativity. I think that got into who I was, especially as a young cadet, because some of that negativity that probably kept me from being my best in certain areas, especially academically, especially militarily, because I think if I were able to do that, maybe my outcome probably would have been on the same trajectory, but also it would have been more positive experience, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:27 Less painful for sure. Col. Mark Clifford 42:29 Yeah, not chasing other things, trying to get your tape out, go recruit somewhere else. You're happy where you are, you're doing the best that you can, and it's going to be challenging, tough. And understand that you're going to take some losses, that's what this place is about. It's not always going to be a win, because in life, it's not always a win. And if you can bounce back from a loss, at some point it took me two years, in that third year, I bounced back in the loss to get that W, life becomes very, very easy. Yeah, you kind of figured out, so that's what I tell myself to prepare myself a little better. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:05 No, that's excellent. What's something that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we share? Col. Mark Clifford 43:11 I think we kind of talked about it, family, my family, my wife's been my rock for almost 30 years, we’re on 29 this year, we're going on 30. We've got two boys that say they don't want to be in the military, I don't want to move. My oldest son is not in the military, he's moved three times since he graduated college two years ago. And then the youngest one, who didn't want to do it, would join officer training school in July. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:34 Congratulations! Col. Mark Clifford 43:35 Yeah, super-proud. He's taking an eight-week route, not the five-year route. So, I don't know if he's smarter, I don't know how to play that one, but you know, I can't say enough about making sure that your family supports what you do. I could not have been as successful or do the things that I was able to do in the Air Force without my wife Elise and my two boys, Caleb and Jaden, without their support, because there were some tough times when you're deployed and you're gone and you just need that rock to make sure that the household is good, so you focus on your job while you're gone and be home in your home, and she made sure that we did that when we had opportunities, and she also, no matter where we went, made sure it was a home, and so I'm thankful for that, because the boys always had home versus places that we had to move to, right, and like you said, we have some good ones, thankfully. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:29 Well, it sounds like you also have translated that, bringing that that Elise has brought to your family, to your boxing family. I mean, I think when cadets are there, they're home away, this is home away from home, right? And maybe not all of them have father figures or leaders in their lives, and it sounds like you kind of taken that mantle, placed it right there. Col. Mark Clifford 44:47 I tried, I tried. You know, we talked about this before we started, but I'm gonna push them hard. Make sure that they exceed that level of physicality and mentality that they think they can, because they will exceed it and be able to perform when it's time to perform. And I love it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:07 Well, Mark, this has been amazing — Coach Clifford, I mean. What you're doing at the program, I mean, you started with you, right, embedded in you, and now you're taking it to the next level. What I learned today in your leadership lessons are those things that you've battled with in the ring, you're bringing out in life, whether in uniform, out of uniform, and you're not only sharing it with those that have been directly on your team, but those that may join your team. You know, we just talked about those basic cadets. So, what I really appreciate about you is you're willing to be there in that with them, celebrating their wins and helping them navigate those losses. So, thanks for being an incredible leader, and thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for investing your time, and for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are on their own leadership journey. You can find this and all our conversations wherever you get your podcasts, or at longblueleadership.org [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fleadership.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cbryan.grossman%40usafa.org%7C8745f862fe004b1e495708deb6bc5c78%7Ce6421ec329ed4f09a13a96e310c5ba80%7C0%7C0%7C639149117332494383%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WJFeTV53Jo6H4gsuCPY%2B8RSdoKcdKo%2BeR2jFjV5apCs%3D&reserved=0]. Until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz. KEYWORDS Leadership development, servant leadership, transformational leadership, competitive mindset, resilience, mental toughness, accountability, team culture, coaching and mentoring, leading by example, emotional intelligence, authenticity, character development, warrior ethos, growth mindset, discipline, perseverance, decision-making, ethical leadership, influencing without authority, role modeling, performance under pressure, purpose-driven leadership, mentorship, building trust, developing potential, talent identification, culture change, officer development, military leadership, sports leadership, motivation, intrinsic motivation, ownership, responsibility, humility, continuous improvement, self-reflection, family support, work-life integration, peer influence, values-based leadership, strategic thinking, adaptability, handling failure, bouncing back from setbacks, high standards, excellence, preparation, focus, commitment, dedication. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

26 mei 2026 - 46 min