LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP

Choose Your Hard - Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay ’98, Ph.D.

A devastating injury nearly ended her dreams of becoming a pilot. SUMMARY Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay ’98, Ph.D., says the accident was merely the first chapter in a career defined by perseverance, service and leadership. Listen to this inspiring story on Long Blue Leadership.   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.longblueleadership.org%2Fe%2Fchoose-your-hard-dr-jannell-macaulay-98%2F%3Ftoken%3D1a47285c51c3b357bdf6efabe02136bc]  |  LINKEDIN [http://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.longblueleadership.org%2Fe%2Fchoose-your-hard-dr-jannell-macaulay-98%2F%3Ftoken%3D1a47285c51c3b357bdf6efabe02136bc&title=] DR. MACAULAY'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Choose your hard: You don’t escape difficulty in life or leadership, you intentionally pick the hard path that aligns with who you want to become. 2. Let vision — not other people’s verdicts — define you by holding a clear internal picture of your future that outvotes external “no’s.” 3. Train your mind to eliminate the noise — unhelpful thoughts, doubts and narratives — to stay focused on what truly serves your goals. 4. Aim to harmonize your roles (leader, parent, partner, professional) across seasons of life rather than chasing a perfect work-life balance. 5. Be the calm in the storm by regulating your own stress response so your presence stabilizes your team instead of amplifying chaos. 6. Stop glorifying exhaustion and competitive stress and instead model healthy, high performance built on sleep, focus and quality over quantity. 7. Use simple daily mental skills — like mindfulness reps, the waterfall technique and a mindful minute at transitions — to protect clarity and compassion. 8. Replace “How are you doing?” with “What’s going well for you today?” to surface real insight, build hope and better detect those sliding toward hopelessness. 9. Practice present, personalized recognition, because small, intentional gestures of appreciation can forge lifelong trust and loyalty. 10. When you hit a crucible moment and feel unsure you’re ready, choose to commit and let the challenge grow you rather than hesitate.   CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Introduction, Jannell’s Academy injury, broken femur, and redefining “no” as possibility 00:05:54 – Her father’s influence, early visions of command and flight, and limitless expectations 00:09:26 – “Choose your hard,” setting vision, eliminating noise, and turning barriers into options 00:12:22 – Air Force career breadth, strategy path, and introduction to the Syria chemical weapons mission 00:16:31 – Saying yes to Syria as a mother, family conversations, and the weight of the mission 00:19:00 – Syria as a crucible moment, inner critic vs external “no,” and committing through discomfort 00:22:17 – Identity beyond the uniform, family strain, rare eye disease, and pivot to mental performance work 00:27:06 – What stress really is, burnout, competitive stress culture, and leaders as calm vs storm 00:36:35 – Mindful leadership in action: no-email Fridays, recognition calls, and the “waterfall” technique 00:52:16 – “Breathless,” stories of Syrian mothers, legacy, and final advice to young leaders   ABOUT DR. MACAULAY BIO Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98, is a combat veteran who served 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, as a pilot, commander, special operations consultant, international diplomat and professionalism instructor. With her innovative leadership style, she was the first leader to introduce mindfulness as a proactive performance strategy within the United States military. Throughout her career she gained experience leading and building teams, designing and implementing complex organizational change, and creating innovative solutions to optimize the human weapon system when operating in rugged and high-stress environments. With over 3,000 flying hours in the C-21, C-130 and KC-10, and extensive education in performance and wellness, she specializes in high-performance under stress with a holistic approach. Dr. MacAulay currently serves as a leadership and human performance consultant for the Department of War, government sector and corporate America. She is the co-founder of Warrior’s Edge, a high-performance mindset training program she developed with Pete Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks and high-performance sports psychologist, Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. MacAulay is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, has a master’s degree in kinesiology from Pennsylvania State University, and a Ph.D. with work in the field of strategic health and human performance. She is a certified wellness educator, yoga instructor and holds a certificate in plant-based nutrition. Dr. MacAulay is a TEDx speaker, military spouse and mother of two.     CONNECT WITH JANNELL LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jannell-macaulay-phd-a187261/]  |  WEBSITE [https://WWW.jannellmacaulay.com]   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://usafa.org/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT Guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99    Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Leadership begins the moment someone tells you what you can't do, and you decide they don't get to write the rest of your story. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, Dr. Janelle McCauley, Class of ’98 welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is an amazing time for us. Excited to have you.   Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:19 Thank you so much for having me. I know this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to be here with you to start a conversation.   Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:24 Absolutely, you know, I do want to highlight some of the things you've done. It's probably true that the list is shorter for me to say what you haven't done, but pilot, combat veteran, you're a leadership strategist, you're a mother, a wife, author — we'll talk about that later. You know, also really getting into the space of a human performance specialist, a commander, all of these things that you've done and, gosh, 20 years in the Air Force, and now having been out, so excited to talk today. Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:51 Thank you so much for that amazing introduction. I don't know if I could live up to even what you just said, in some ways. But yeah, I just would love to share with your listeners how amazing the Air Force Academy can be for the potential and the possibilities for someone's future. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07 Absolutely, so let's actually jump into a time early in your cadet days, so we'll tie it right to the Air Force Academy. There was a moment in time where you literally broke your femur. I'm curious, did it break your dreams too, of being a cadet at the time? Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:21 It almost did. And there's a story to that, so I'll go into that a little bit. So, during basic training, I developed a stress fracture. You know, running in combat boots, especially the old black version that we used to run in. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:35 Yes, I remember.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:36 Not a good thing for your body. And so I had developed this pain in my right quad to the point where I could not even stand on my right leg to put my left pant leg on, during, you know, as you're rushing to — banging on the doors, we’ll be dressed, like, “Open the doors, you will be dressed,” yeah, and I would be, you know, Welcome to the Jungleplaying —   Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:55 I remember that.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:56 I'm putting up my pants and I'm in pain, and my roommate's like, “What is happening?” Like, “You need to go to the doctor,” and I refused to, at first, of course, right? Push through it, right? And then when I finally went, they were like, “Here's the Ace bandage and some vitamin M, you know, Motrin. And, of course, I didn't know anything different, so I kept going. And then it was three days after basic training had finished, and I was at cheerleading practice, and I was doing a back flip, and my femur, like, literally snapped in half. It sounded like a tree branch. It was — I just collapsed to the floor, and this was before we had cell phones, right? So, if you can imagine, I'm 17 years old, so I hadn't turned 18 yet, and so they couldn't give me any pain medication, you know. The emergency — the ambulances rushing into the emergency room at the Academy hospital, which was not equipped to deal with what just happened to me. So, they sent me up to the Army hospital in Denver at the time, was Fitzsimmons. They couldn't understand why a 17-year-old’s femur would just snap, and no one wanted to really address the fact that maybe it was a stress fracture at the time, so they actually told me I had cancer. So, they did — a bone type, a bone type of cancer, and so they did a biopsy on the bone. I lived in traction for 10 days while all my classmates were continuing on with their freshman year. So I was about — they eventually determined that this was not cancer, this was actually stress fracture, and so the two choices they gave me was a cast from my hip to my toe for about six months, or they were going to put a rod and four screws. So a rod the length of my femur, two screws of screws on my knee, two screws in my hip. And then the doctor said, “Either way, you're never flying airplanes,”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:36 And that was your dream?   Col. Jannell MacAulay 3:38 That was my dream. Yes, my uncle had flown Marine 1 for President Reagan, so I grew up watching him fly helicopters in the Marine Corps, fly the President, and just he was the coolest person ever, and I wanted to be just like him. He took me to the air shows, so yes, it was a crushing moment. You know, it was something where I thought I could either let what people were telling me, the doctor saying, “You're never gonna bend your leg like this, you're never gonna be a runner, you're never gonna be a pilot,” and I could let that define me, or I could choose to define myself and what I was going to be capable of, and what the possibilities would be for me in the future. And so it was very hard for 17-, 18-year-olds to process all of this, but my dad used to give, tell me a quote, and it was, “Vision is the art of seeing the invisible,” and he would always tell me, “If you could see it for yourself, you can make it happen,” and so when it came time for being pilot qualified, I actually chose to get all of the metal removed out of my leg, just so that there was no reason for them to not allow me to go to pilot training. And so I went through that, which was — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:49 Another surgery, wow. Col. Jannell MacAulay 4:50 Yes. So through all of that, I have learned that was the first experience where I learned a lot about myself and what I was, what I could focus on, how I could set a vision for myself in the future, and how I could start to eliminate the noise — that's what I call it now. I didn't have language for it at the time, but it's eliminate the noise that does not serve us in pursuit of our passions, in pursuit of our dreams. And that was what I had started to do, which it's kind of full circle that that is now my career, to help other people do it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:26 I want to peel that back a little bit. There's so many things. I mean, your dad's quote: “Vision is when you can see the invisible. I think I paraphrased that a bit. One more time.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:33 It's actually a Jonathan Swift quote, and that “vision is the art of seeing the invisible.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:39 OK, so were you always that way growing up because you had, you know, your dad in your life sharing that kind of thought with you, or has it been a series of experiences that you've had that have kind of really made you that way? Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:54 So, my dad has always been a very positive role model in the sense of eliminating barriers and dreaming big. So, when I was 7 years old, and I was a ballerina, he used to tell anyone that — and I distinctly remember this as a little girl — he would tell anyone that would listen that I was going to grow up to be a submarine warfare commander or a combat pilot. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:16 Oh, wow, not a swan, no ballerina, you know — Col. Jannell MacAulay 6:18 And I would literally be in my tutu, and he would tell strangers at the grocery store, right, “This is my daughter, Jannell, she's gonna grow up and do these amazing things.” And in the ’80s, women couldn't do it, right? We weren't there yet, right? We were not allowed to — and so I didn't know that. I didn't grow up thinking that there were barriers on what I could become, and I think that's a, we have this role as parents to help our children see what's possible, because you know they can either be told where the limits are or they could be told where the possibilities exist, and I think my dad did a lot of that for me, and so that I think is a lot of my story is, like, journeying through challenge and trauma to figure out that I didn't have to listen to that voice. I could create a new one, and my dad taught me how to do that, and then I've kind of developed, what I think, are skills and training, because it's hard. It is very hard to do, and so I like that's been what my Ph.D. work and my research has been focused on, is how can I help other people who don't have maybe that those resources or their parents in their life that have taught them those things. How can I give them those tools?   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:27 So you were a cadet when you made the decision that you still wanted to be a pilot, and you didn't want there to be anything that said you couldn't, so you made the decision to have the metal removed from your body. As we think about decisions that we have to make in life, that could be dream-opening decisions or dream-closing decisions. How did you come to that decision? And you know what would you share to someone who's at a similar crossroads in their life? Like, how do you navigate? That's a tough decision you made.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 7:54 It was a huge decision. I think part of it is understanding what are you passionate about? Who do you want to become? And not just about what you want to do, what type of person you are. That's a lot of what I think mental skills work is as well, is like, who's the person underneath, because once you figure that out, then the doing follows, right? Like, you could do anything, and I was the type of person underneath it all that did not like to be told no, right? Or I loved it when someone would say, “You can't do that,” right? It's like the challenge is what inspires me and motivates me, and so when they were saying you will not be a pilot, it was like, OK, well, then how do I get to yes? And part of that path was I had to have the metal removed. Now, there were some arguments, like, “Maybe you'll be fine.” I don't want to take the risk, right? I was like, “Nope, I don't want to give anyone an excuse to take something away from me.” That was kind of the mindset at the time. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:00 So, I think that really dives into this idea of, you can, when you said yourself: The no in front of you is kind of like, “How do I turn that into a yes?” You know, clear out the noise. How did that play into your life as an Air Force officer? Because I'm sure that you came across a lot of what we’re seemingly no’s. What did that look like? Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:22 So, here's, but, and this goes back to the Academy as well. I tell young people today, my greatest gift is to tell them, “Choose your hard.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34 Choose your hard.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:35 Choose your hard, right. Anytime I'm asked to speak to a college, you know, high school audience, like, I do mental skills, but a lot of times the theme is “choose your hard,” because I think people are — young people are always in pursuit of the easy button, and then when they encounter hard, like, “Oh, there's got to be a better way.” The lesson is, it's all hard, right? It's all hard. So, determine what you want to do, or who you want to be more, and how you're going to get there, set the vision, and then navigate through the hard. And I would argue you need to equip yourself with the mental skills to do that, and in pursuit of that, there is going to be no right, there are going to be challenges, and part of it is accepting the challenges instead of being afraid of them, because it is through those challenges that we're actually going to accomplish great things, and we're going to get to reach our dreams and our goals. And I think that that is something I struggled with, but I found a way and a path through it. So, I think that there's always going to be no in your life, and I like to create opportunities, so then I have, I get the choice instead of just having to default to someone else telling me no, like even when I left the Academy, I applied for pilot training for grad school, for physical therapy school. Because I wanted to have opportunities, so then I got to choose which path I wanted in the future, which hard I was going to choose for myself in that moment.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:03 I just — I'm thinking about you, went into the Air Force as a pilot, and you talk about choosing your hard, and you also are a mother. Let's talk about that piece. I think just navigating the and in being a mother and a leader and an Air Force officer and a combat veteran, a pilot, etc. I mean, that's a lot.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 11:23 It is a lot, but I think underneath it all, the person that I am is one who not balances my life but harmonizes it and all the roles that I get to play. I think that's the greatest thing about the Air Force. You list all those things that I've done. I was watching the cadets yesterday, I was one of them, with just a bright future and so much possibility. And under one organization, I got to fly multiple airplanes, I got to go back to school numerous times, study a lot of interesting topics, from my degree in exercise physiology, from Penn State to my Ph.D. in strategy. So I got to study all these different things. I got to work in chemical weapons, which I know we're going to talk about later. I got to fly around the world, I got to lead people all under one team, right, one organization, and that is the greatest thing I think the Air Force can give people if they take those opportunities that are in front of them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:23 Yes. Well, let's, let's jump into a time — you actually brought up Syria. And so let's go there, because I think I would like to hear more about the story, and how it kind of unfolded around the chemical weapons there. Col. Jannell MacAulay 12:36 So, I got sent to — it’s post… So I went to the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies — SAASS time, and my husband and I were actually the first married couple to go through SAASS together. And stayed married at the end. There was one other married concept that it were exactly that. There was one other married couple with us at the time, which is really unique, but I took — you know, through SAASS, you get a strategy focus, and you have to go do a strategy job somewhere for your staff to work. OK, and so my husband really wanted to go work at the Pentagon, so he was on the joint staff working on the Israel-Palestine desk for the chairman, and I was like, “What else can I do in DC to keep my family together, that would be interesting?” And there was this job at this little organization called the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, and DTRA, as they're known, is the brain trust for everything weapons of mass destruction, so chemical, biological, nuclear weapons, planning, research, execution of mission, that is all run out of DTRA, and so I was like, “That sounds interesting, I've never done anything in any of this space, but it'll be an easy job,” is what I thought, because I was about to have my second baby, and every time I call them, no one ever answered, like, past 3 o'clock so I'm like, “Great job.” Exactly. Like, I got my staff tour done, and I get to do something new. But I was a fish out of water, you know, like former pilots, like going into this situation, the WMDs. They gave me that job also, because no one wanted it, it was almost asking people who are experienced in the world of chemical weapons to do an impossible task, right, to handle an impossible problem. And so, at the time, nobody really wanted to put their name to it, because there was a no-win. We don't have diplomatic relations with Syria, like this — a bad civil war was happening there with an evil dictator, right? Like, how were we going to solve that problem without any type of relations? And then, you know their proxy of Russia, right? So then it's like we don't even have — we didn't have the greatest relations with them. So when August of 2013 occurred, and Assad used chemical weapons against a civilian population, 1,400 people died almost instantaneously from sarin gas. Sarin gas is one of the most awful chemicals, immediately, right? It's like paralysis. It makes your eyes water, like you become — it's a horrific way to die. And when that happened, my life changed, because all of a sudden it was like, “Oh my gosh, this is real. And, “Who's been studying this problem?” And at the time, it was you and your team. And so we kind of got thrust — I got — I went to London almost immediately to start briefing our international partners on what we had been building and studying, and luckily we had been, for the better part of six months, working on this problem. And then shortly after that, I went to the Hague, because Syria did turn over their chemical weapons to the international community, and there's a whole story behind that. Obviously, we got the Russians to help with that. And then I got sent to the Hague to work at the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons — the OPCW is who has all the inspectors and the teams who helped destroy and inspect the status of these chemical weapons — and so I got sent there to work with them and negotiate directly with the Syrians and the Russians to build the plan. And I remember my boss was like, “You have to go, and I don't know when you're coming back, we need someone over there to be running point on this mission,” and yeah, he sent me, and he said I didn't have to go writing my little kids, Andrew just turned 1, but he said, you know, “We need you, and this is what I picked you for, this mission, and this is what it's for.” So, yeah. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:31 Wow, what did you — what went through your mind when you were asked to go, and you had the opportunity to make that decision? What do you mind besides the fact that you have young children? Col. Jannell MacAulay 16:44 Well, of course, like, I think, like most mothers, you never are like, “I still want to leave my kids,” right? I want to go, but I knew it was the right thing to do, because I had the ability to make an impact and a difference, because I knew the mission inside and out. I was the right person at the right time, and I was ready. I distinctly remember I went home to talk to my children. Well, Ally, she was 6 at the time, and I remember talking to her, and I said, 'Mommy has to go away to handle this mission. And what I'm going to do while I'm away is there's some really bad stuff that some really bad people have, and I'm going to work to take that stuff away from them, so that they cannot hurt anyone anymore, and she looks up, and she's, you know, crying. We're both crying, and she said, “Mommy, like a superhero?” And, I just, like, kind of nodded, and she's like, “You can go, Mommy,” like, “You can go.” And it was in that moment that I realized, like, that's why we do these jobs. It was to protect her, to model to her that, like, I can be a mom, I can be a strong mom, and I can also go do things in the service of my country and the service of my nation and it was important for me to go, and then — so that was a driving force, like knowing that my family was going to be OK and supportive, but the other driving force was thinking about the mothers in Syria who lost their children, and thinking, here I was holding mine and they will never get to hold their children anymore. I mean, hundreds of children died and were put in mass graves after this, and mothers didn't get to say goodbye, mothers didn't get to hold their children, and they suffered immensely in those moments. And so I kept thinking about the Syrian mothers, and how if I could do anything to help prevent something like that from happening again, then I had to go, right, I had to do that for them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44 Would you say that that mission, or that part, that time in your career, was something that was so impactful in your life it changed you, or it maybe shifted your focus on things you were going to do later, or was it just at that time, this is where I need to be doing and making an impact? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:01 There's a whole story behind it, where we were dismissed, and we came up with the innovative idea of how to solve this problem by destroying these chemical weapons on a boat, ship — sorry, Navy — on a ship in the middle of the Mediterranean. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:12 Was that because you were told it couldn't be done that way? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:14 Yeah, exactly. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15 Oh, interesting. Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:17 We had to actually start a whisper campaign within the Pentagon, and the State Department and the National Security Council to get our idea heard. And eventually, it was. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:28 So I’d like to take a little bit of time in that space of when you recognize that need to keep pushing for, right, the choosing your hard. How do you navigate that? What would you recommend to somebody who has been no, no, no, no, no, no, no. How do you work your way through that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:45 Well, I would first ask, where is the no coming from? Because if the no is coming from your inner critic, right, I know how to get rid of that and eliminate that, and that is actually what most people — like, that is what prevents most people from doing great things. I like to say that we all have these crucible moments in our life, a moment where we're asked to do something that we really don't think we could do, right? Like, we're kind of like, “Oh my God, deep down you're like, “Oh, I don't think I'm gonna do this. Can I do this?” And in that moment, we have the opportunity to either hesitate or commit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:24 Was Syria your yes? Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:26 It was very much a crucible moment. You could either hesitate and say, “Oh no, I can't do this, it's too big for me,” like, “I can't take this responsibility,” or “I can't make this decision,” or “I can't believe in my idea,” because the voice in your head says so. But sometimes it could even be real people telling you and dismissing you and saying, like, “You can't do this.” So, “Where does the no come from?” is always the first question. And if it's an internal no, you can train your mind to eliminate that noise. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:54 Yes. OK, I like that, because then you — it opened up your eyes to the possibilities of who you might connect with that can then help navigate through some of that challenge. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:03 And here's the reason why we, as humans, love this: What happens when you step into discomfort, right? You're at that moment, that crucible moment, and then you decide to commit, and you step into discomfort, and you navigate through it, and you get to the other side. How does that feel? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:18 Amazing. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:18 Right? You throw your arms up in the air: “I’m a badass! Look at what I just did.” And even you're like, I didn't think I could do that, and I did it. That is what we live for as humans. I don't think people realize that, right? Like, we want those moments, but we don't want the discomfort that comes in getting them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35 We want to be at the other end, right?   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:37 We just want to be at the other end of that, because we love that moment where you throw — so you're not gonna throw your hands up if you're like, “Oh yeah, that was so easy.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43 That's a good point. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:44 Right. You wouldn't be like, “I feel so good about it.” I'll come—   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:45 We wouldn’t share with people if everybody could do it. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:47 Right? Exactly, so we do love those moments as humans, and I think that is part of what — I teach people how to not be afraid of discomfort, to get more opportunity and more times, more reps of those throw your hands up in the air and be a badass. Right? Like, and that's really what I think it's about, is being ready for that moment, and the more often you're ready for that moment, the more often you step into discomfort, the more throw your hands up in the moments you get.. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:18 So, if humans are chasing that, and that feeling of, like, you know, commit, raise your hand, get through it, and you know, kind of bask in like that, that moment, because you loved it so much. There's probably a desire to seek more of those opportunities. How did you navigate your career after that? I know you served 20 years. Was there a point where you're like, “It's time for me to move into this space,” or did you just happen to really decide to commit to this new world of mental performance and toughness? Col. Jannell MacAulay 22:49 So, I, like, most military members, I went through a phase where I got really caught up in my identity as an Air Force officer, Air Force pilot, and it can be scary to leave that identity with the one you've always known, the one that you've been comfortable with, and even though I'm successful in — and even though I do enjoy challenge and discomfort, it was scary, right? It is scary, and I think that, well, first, part of my story was, I don't know that I was necessarily completely ready to leave, but the Air Force was making it really difficult for my family. My husband and I, he was a maintenance officer, pilot, you would think maintenance and pilot, very like cohesive, compatible. We would be able to be stationed together. We spent six years apart, and two of the last three that I was in the Air Force, we did not live together. OK, and that was hard. Our kids are getting older, and I distinctly remember I was in New Jersey, commanding a squadron. My husband was in New Mexico, commanding a group. Note to the Air Force: New Mexico and New Jersey are only close in the alphabet, right? These are not close locations, not at all. And full disclosure, I had the kids with me and an au pair, because I couldn't have done it otherwise. And I remember my husband flew home, you know? He thought he would get in at like 2 a.m. on Friday night and have sleep for 10 a.m. on Sunday morning, right? Get back. I remember we woke up our son, he was four at the time, and he looks up and he goes, “Mom, Dad, you're together,” and I was like, “No, this is not OK.” Like I don't want my children to just wake up or just be grateful when their parents are in the same room, like, that's not what I want for their childhood experience. And so I actually gave up my command six months early, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done, because I loved being a commander, but I was at a point in my life where I realized my squadron will get another commander who cares so much about them, just like I do, but my kids only have like one mom, yeah, and they had one dad, and they needed us together. And so that was a hard decision, but it did set me like on a trajectory to think about retirement, to think about, you know, what I could do on the outside, and actually it was like divine intervention, I actually lost my pilot qualification. I have a rare eye disease, and so I've gone very blind to my central vision, like 80% blind to my right eye. So I was going to get my pilot qualification taken from me, and so I think that was God's way of saying, “It's time, this is not your path anymore. You have a different gift,” right? Flying was a great gift, leading in the Air Force was a great gift. “There's a different path for you.” And so that's when I retired, and then kind of realized there were so many people that wanted to hear this information. There were so many people that were struggling with this idea of “How do I perform? How do I manage stress? How do I get those badass, like, throw my hands up in air moments?” And I started by working with high-performing teams, the military, first responders, hospital workers, you know. Then COVID hit, and I realized everybody, everybody needs it, stress, like psychological disorders, like they're on the rise, anxiety, and if I knew how to help people, why would I keep that to myself, right? Like, it's just became something I'd be passionate about. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:29 Goodness, that's probably something that people don't know just by looking at you, that you actually have an eye disease that you battle through, and I'm curious on when you started into this work, like you said, COVID hit, and you realize everybody needed this. It almost is a bit of, maybe reinvention is not the right word, but you literally change your trajectory completely, even though you had all that schooling. So, my question is, how did you actually, how do you determine who you work with, because the land is so vast of who needs it, you know? I mean, how do you actually do that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:06 There's only one of me. It has been hard. My tribe is always the military, and even though I do spend a lot of time in the private sector working with, you know, companies from Amazon, NBC Universal, like, hotel chains, different industries — which I love — anytime a military commander reaches out and says, “We need help,” whether it's burnout, whether it's just not optimizing performance, whether it's stress-management, because if you look at the majority of DOCS today, people are burnout and stressed out, and—   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:47 Oh, the organizational climate service.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:49 Yes, yes, the climate service. And so most of the time, how do you, how do you manage that as a commander? Because, and here's the thing about stress and burnout: Stress is a perceived emotion. People don't think about it, but the actual what stress is, is your perception as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of a given moment. So, your brain, when you're faced with a stressor, something comes at you, and it's a stimulant, right? And your environment, whether it was like a contentious conversation, traffic, it was like a big decision, like flying a plane in combat, right, whatever that is coming at you, your brain does a like split-second calculation as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of that moment, and if your brain says, “Oh hell no,” it becomes overwhelming, it becomes stress, it be it sends you into this like spiral of like anxiety, which is like — what anxiety actually is, it's your mind's creation of what you think is going to happen in the future. It actually hasn't happened to you. Anxiety is a complete creation of the mind, right? It is. Our minds are fantastic at mental time travel. They will take us in catastrophizing about the future. I like to tell people, the majority of the catastrophes you will experience in your lifetime, they will only happen inside your head, right? They will feel very real, because our minds are fantastic at this time travel. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:11 Then it turns physical. Col. Jannell MacAulay 29:12 Yes, then it becomes like part of our physiology. So that's what this is, what leads to chronic stress. It leads to preventive illness that sets in, because we live our lives in this chronic state of stress, and stress again is a perception. So you could also be stimulated by that stressor, and instead of getting overwhelmed, you could say, “Bring it on.” Like, this is a challenge and I’ve got the resources to meet this moment. It’s a choice. Again, I get people, “It’s not as simple as that.” It is as simple as that, but it's hard in practice, and most of that is because we have spent 20, 30, 40 years training and wiring our brains for one direction, which is to strat for stress and survival, right. And so when I do ask people to flip it, you can't just flip it over, but these are not soft skills. This is why what I teach is very hard, because you're rewiring your brain. The good news is it's called neuroplasticity. We can rewire our brains, but it does take work and deliberate commitment, and that's why, you know, I see this all the time with spouses. They're like, “I don't see what is the big deal. My wife is freaking out,” or vice versa, like in a cockpit. Like, I'm calm, and I'm like, “Why is my co-pilot freaking out?” It's that perception, and how our brain deals stressors. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:27 So, we have a lot of listeners that are leading people. How do you navigate their ability to help others through that, or is it really more dependent on the individual themselves? Like, do you need the individual to do with the work with you, or can you work with the leader and help them navigate that with their folks? Col. Jannell MacAulay 30:46 You can absolutely work with the leader, and as a leader, you can role model the behaviors. So, there's some real science behind this. For example, how often is a leader creating a storm instead of being the calm in the storm, right?   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:02 More often than people realize.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:03 Right, it really is, and it's almost one of those things where later can be the calm in the storm, right? But when they're not, they embody the stress that then pervades through the organization, right? Like they create that culture, and so if you have a boss that comes in every day stressed out, you have a boss that's not sleeping. I absolutely, this is what drives you crazy about leaders in the Air Force, who will say things like, “I only sleep three, four hours a night,” and like, you are bragging your suboptimal, right, from someone who studies performance and psychology, and like, you are literally telling people, “I am not ready to make decisions on your behalf or be your leader today.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:42 I like how you said that: “You are bragging your suboptimal.” That is right, there, those words, that's fantastic. Col. Jannell MacAuley 31:48 Right, but we — it's part of our culture, right, to even kind of be like proud of it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:51 How much did I actually, you know, keep myself up to get more done? Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:55 Yes, yes. And so here's another example. I'll tell a quick story. I was a commander, sat down Monday morning meeting with my peers, and one guy says, “Oh, I worked all day Sunday on performance reports, like, I have a sick kid at home, so I only got like two hours of sleep, like barely had time to grab coffee, you know, but I'm here to be a badass.” And then the next guy goes, “Well, let me tell you something. I worked Saturday and Sunday on all my performance reports, and, oh, by the way, two sick kids at home, so I didn't sleep last night.” Wow, you know, “I didn't have time to grab coffee, but like, I'm here to be a badass.” And then they turned to me, like, expecting me to one up them on my stress. It's a culture of competitive stress that we live in. And instead, I said, “Well, my husband doesn't live with me. I had to get all my work done last week, so I can spend the weekend with my kids,” but mind you, I had the OSS, the flying squadron, so I had triple the size squadron, “but I got all my work done last week because I was more focused in my work. Then I hung out with my kids, everyone slept great, like no one's sick, we're all good. I've got my yummy green smoothie to start the day,” and instead of anyone at that table saying, “Oh my gosh, how do you do that?” The sentiment was, “Well, she's obviously not working hard now.” That's our culture, like our culture is one of, if you're not stressed, if you're not showing how busy you are, you're not valued, and actually that is not the path to performance. The path to performance is quality over quantity, it's sleeping, it's demonstrating to stay calm, it's making good decisions, it's, you know, so we as leaders can either set that tone that we're in this competitive stress, which then makes our captains not want to be us, like that's a huge problem, right? But if you're the type of leader who stays calm, if you're the type of leader that they see, “Oh, they go home every night on time, they do spend — they do leave early sometimes to go to their kids' soccer game.” That could, should be OK, but it never — I never didn't perform my job right, I was still working hard and doing the things I needed to do every day, I just was more efficient. Here's the stat: We mind-wander half our waking moments. Do you know what that means? Like, we've all read a page in the book, back to the bottom. Yep, don't know what I read. Drove in your car someplace, don't know how I got there. Yep,   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:06 Yep, autopilot   Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:06 That's when you have an off-task thought, your brain, your attention system goes off task during an ongoing task or activity. I'm telling my brain to pay attention to driving or reading, it goes elsewhere. It's unintentional, and when our brain does that. t mind-wanders towards stressors, worries, catastrophes, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:41 To-do lists.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:22 To-do lists, exactly. All of those horrible things that then make you more angry and distraught and unhappy, right? So, what if we could get control of that, stop spending so much time in that distraction and be more focused? Well, you do that by not having your phone all the time, you do that by looking at people and actually listening, because this is where leadership comes in. If we're having a conversation and I'm telling you something important, you're my, you're my commander, and I look at you and I'm like, “She's looking at me but not listening.” You can feel that as you can see. And so leaders can be mindful and focused and pay attention. It doesn't take that much, but it takes awareness. That's really what we're training when we train our minds. We are training our awareness. I'm not saying that I am perfect at being focused, I am not perfect at staying calm. The difference is, is when I start to get out of control, I recognize it quickly, and I redirect. When I notice myself not paying attention to our conversation, I redirect very quickly. That's the skill, and that's what we're not teaching enough leaders, I don't think. We're getting there, because I think leaders can set the talent, leaders can set the example, and when I was a commander, I collected data, and we found that, you know, 60, over 60% of the leaders I was interacting with on a daily basis changing their life based on the things I was teaching them, based on the way I was modeling behaviors, and then a greater squadron, it was like 35% and that's — I didn't even teach them anything, I just demonstrated an example. So imagine once you start teaching people how much more those stats will grow and how people's lives will change. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04 Right. well, one of my favorite stories, I think, that you know, and I'm thinking about our leaders that are listening in here as they, as they think about how they can be better leaders. One of the stories you shared previously was actually recognizing someone by calling someone important in their life to share their good news, and it took like two minutes. I think what a wonderful lesson, like being a great leader and championing someone does not have to take a long time, but the impact lasts — could be forever. Do you mind sharing that story? Because I just think that's such a wonderful one. Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:35 I love that story. So, I had an airman who got below-the-zone senior airman, and I used to do a thing where, you know, whether it was a coin or whether it was an award or whether it was just a job all done, and we wanted to celebrate someone in the squadron, you know, you could send someone an email. I hate email, which I did — also as a commander, No- Email Friday. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:56 Really?!   Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:56 Did not check my emails on Fridays because I wanted one day where I wasn't chained to my desk, like I was like, in fact, you know how my wing commander found out I was doing No-email Friday? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:06 Because they emailed and you didn't email back? Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:08 He got my out-of-office response. Welcome to No-email Friday. “I'm not checking my email today. If you really need to get a hold of me, call me. There's my phone number.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:15 I love that.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:16 So I did that to ensure that I could spend more time with, like, how do you lead people if you don't know them?   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:23 Right, you can't.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:24 And if you're sitting behind your desk or you're checking emails, like, you can't know people. So I would spend Friday down and about, and we used to do this thing where I would call someone special first for someone, if maybe they had a big event or whatever we were celebrating. So one day, this gentleman got below the zone, and I asked him to pull out his phone, because I used to call people, and people don't answer strange numbers anymore. So that stopped working. I was like, “You pick — pull out your phone, let's call someone special that you pick, and because everyone's gonna answer their kids, right? And I actually talked to, like, spouses, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, like brothers, sisters of people, yeah, over the course of my commands, and I asked him to pull out his phone, called his dad. I got to brag on him a little bit, saying, like, “Hey, this is what your son is doing,” and most of the time kids don't even tell their parents what they're doing in the Air Force, so it was an opportunity for that. At the end of the conversation, I remember it just like it was yesterday. The dad said, “I'm so proud of you, I love you, son.” And I looked up, and my airman just had tears streaming down his face, and I was getting choked up, and my airman said, my dad has never said that to me before. So we're busy as leaders, like we are, go, go, go, we are in a competitive stress environment, whether we want to be or not, and I'm just asking leaders to pause, right, and it doesn't have to take a lot of time, right, just pause. Those types of interactions you have with an airman, the next time you need them to work late, the next time you need them to take the hill, the next time you need them to go deploy, or whatever it is, you've built a level of trust that only happens when you're paying attention, and that's what the future fight is about. The future fight is about connecting as human beings and focusing when we're doing those hard and challenging things, and the way we do both of those is by training our attention system. You know, we have to pay attention to each other, and we have to pay attention to our job, so that we can be high performing when it's hard.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:25 This has been excellent. I didn't — wow. Got me… Tears. Eyes are sweating here in the studio. No, this is wonderful. I'm curious, with all the work that you do in helping others, what is something you're doing every day to stay sharp yourself in this space to be better as a leader, what's something you do?   Col. Jannell MacAulay 39:46 I am really big on continuously challenging myself, like I always want to have a goal or something hard in my future, like I think that that, especially as we get older, I think it's really important. And so, on a personal front, I just signed up to run 50 miles.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:04 Oh my goodness.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:04 I got five friends to do it with me, so I'm like excited. Yeah, it's not all in one day, it's like you run a 5k, 10k, half-marathon, marathon over the course of four days. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:14 And so the longest race at the end. Wow. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:16 At the end. Yes, that's why it's a big challenge. And so that's my next one. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:22 When is that?   Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:23 That is in January. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:24 Oh my goodness, so yeah.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:25 Just about. And again, for someone who was told you will never be a runner, I think that's also why I want to do it, you know, just to prove to myself that I can, so that's kind of a personal challenge, but on the leadership front, you know, I challenge myself every day. Writing a book was scary, right? You know, when I go and work with each team, whether it's someone in the, you know, like a company or whether it's a military unit, I try to take my time to like customize exactly what they need. It's not just going to be like cookie cutter for everyone, and so that's like my continuous challenge is, can I go into an environment and lead and instruct and educate and train in a way that's meaningful to that group, and that's, you know, what I would, I do for my job, but most importantly, I love this sentiment that you can be everything to someone or you can be someone to everyone. Sometimes in my job I get on a stage, I talk to thousands of people, and I'm someone to a lot of people, right? I can give them a little piece of what I teach, but I also have two young people in my life, my children, that my role to be everything to them is also very important, and so I try to harmonize that the best I can, because it's easy. They get caught up in, like, I'm just gonna go out there and keep sharing this message and forget that there's people closest to me. You know, leadership is about influence, right? Your 3-foot circle, which one of my classmates at the academy, Ronnie Buller, taught me, right? Your 3-foot circle is who you interact with, whether it's your family, your team, your neighbors, your community, and so you have the ability to continuously lead, and that's I want to continuously lead by example and teach people that we need to train their minds. It's not a whoo whoo thing, it's a hard thing that requires deliberate and consistent practice, and it will pay dividends if you give it the focus and time it deserves. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:28 I appreciate that you use the word that you like to harmonize things in your life versus balance. I think that's a very distinct difference. It's really impressive. If you could go back in time and talk to Janelle, young Janelle, or maybe it's even just talking to your daughter once you're young girl. What advice would you give her in the space of leadership? Col. Jannell MacAulay 42:48 Well, I would say to choose your hard, and I wish somebody would have imparted that a little bit more on me. I had that sentiment, and I had a lot of grit, and I had a lot of determination, and that's why I did accomplish a lot when I was younger, but it was more difficult than it needed to be. I'm not here to say, like, it makes it easy, it can be easier when correspondingly, like, you're, you're, you have great, you have determination, you're repetitively challenging yourself, that builds mental strength. But if I had known that I could also train my mind in a deliberate way, in parallel, just to make it a little bit easier, and to also find the joy in the journey. There's a picture of me when I got back from a KC-10 deployment, and I'm holding my daughter. She was 15 months, so it was like the first time I had deployed when she was young, and that was a hard deployment. And I remember, like, I look at that picture, and I can see in my face and in my eyes, that I was always already worried about the next thing. Like, instead of being joyful that I was holding my daughter, I was like, in this great moment—   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04 That's what I was expecting you to actually explain, that's crazy. Col. Jannell MacAulay 44:07 I wasn't there, like, my mind was already like, “OK, gotta go again,” like, “When's the next thing?” like, “When is was my next three-week trip that I have to leave her, when is the next thing that I'm gonna miss in her life?” And, you know, we spend a lot of time living our lives, stressful moments, a stressful moment to stressful moment, and I wish that I could have learned earlier to embrace the moments in between, to see them, right? I mind-wandered through many of them, I was just worried, I was catastrophizing. I mean, how many of us spend time in the military? As soon as you get to your first, your next assignment, you're already worried about what your next one is, right? You're like, OK, what do I need to do? Like, like, yes. And you're for me as a joint-spouse couple, there was no protections for us back then. Like, I love that they're finally gone, and I better know, yes, right? I'm so grateful for that, because we did not have those protections. It was like, here's where he's going, here's where you're going, and unless you had a commander or a leader that cared enough to make a phone call, you're going separate ways. And so I wish that somebody would have told me then to stop worrying so much about the next thing and just live more in the moment, I would have saved myself a lot of extra stress, a lot of extra angst, and I would have had more joy. And so that's really what I want for this generation, and that's why I work so hard, and I'm so passionate about this, is because if I could do it again, that's what I would want to remember.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:31 So, with so many listening and watching, this is your opportunity to be, you know, something for many. What is the thing that they might do? A small thing they could do, just in their lives, to be a little bit better in their mental space and their mental capacity or performance.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:48 Gosh, I have, like, an 8-hour course.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:51 I know. That’s why I was like, “Here’s a nugget everybody, pay attention.”   Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:56 OK, I’m going to give you — can I give you three? Which ones to pick? The first one is to start practicing mindfulness, to start doing mental pushups. You cannot layer in productive thinking, you cannot pivot your mind unless you eliminate the noise. Like, that's the first thing you have to do. You have to be able to see the thoughts inside your head and make a conscious choice not to follow them. Because a lot of them are not providing value to you, right? And the skill set that does that is mental pushups, is mindfulness, and it's this idea of the definition of mindfulness is being in the present moment without any emotional reactivity or judgment. Like, just be here now without judgment, that's what it means. And it's a deliberate practice of continuously being here now without judgment, so that when you are in a moment with lots of judgment, you can filter right, and especially that's where greatness comes from. It's not because of a great moment, it's because of what you do in the moments you're given. Second thing is, for leaders, stop asking people, “How are you doing?” I want them to rephrase that question and ask, “What's going well for you today?” And the reason we do that is for those two reasons: The first one is when you ask someone how they're doing, you're gonna get — most people are just gonna give you like, “Busy,” right? “Good,” “Fine,” “Liiving the dream,” whatever, right? But did I, as a leader, get any information from you when you say any of those in response? No. And then what we do as leaders? We get, “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” And then we—   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:36 Check the box, check the box, check the box.   Col. Jannell MacAulay 47:37 Yes. And if you happen to have someone who's like, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you,” you're almost like, “Oh my God, good for you.” I didn't mean for you guys to tell me, because that's our cluster again, right? So I want leaders to start asking people what's going well for you, and that does two things. Now I'm going to get information from you based on your answer, and that information is also going to start training your mind and your psychological framework toward optimism and hope, because do you know the biggest problem for leaders today? I think is missing the hopeless people. We think that there's this binary of optimism and pessimism, and so the optimistic people, we can find them easy, and the pessimistic people, we can find them easy too, right? They're usually, I'm usually focused on the pessimism, because they're noisy and they're loud and they're annoying and they’re bothering us and they’re bothering the whole unit, right? And sometimes we're like, “Oh my gosh, Bob is so negative and angry,” like, “We should worry about Bob.” But the thing is, is that actually Bob's not your worry, because people who are pessimistic understand they're on a sliding scale. A pessimist thinks that there's a genuine belief that things could get worse, but if you believe things can get worse, you know they can also get better, right? Which is what optimism is. I genuinely believe things will get better. So, a pessimist — it's not binary. I want people at leaders to open up the aperture. There's optimism, pessimism, and then there's hopelessness and hope. That's the second thing. And then the last thing is leaders suffer from what I call compassion fatigue. OK, it's a very real thing. How many of us spend all day at work — it's kind of a combination of decision fatigue and compassion fat. You spend all day at work making decisions for other people, you make, you spend all day at work taking other people's problems, and if you're an empathetic person, like you take it on, right? You're like, “Oh my god, feel so bad, like airmen that are struggling with all these things.” Then you go home and someone at home says, “What's for dinner,” and you flip out about what's for dinner, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, where did that come from? Like, I didn't mean to snap, or someone in your — it's very important to you, and your whole life comes to you and needs you, needs your attention, and you're like, I have no more attention to give you, I have no more compassion to offer, because I am done, like I am burnt, so it's a very real thing, and it's not an excuse, I might have given people a label for what's happening, like it's this thing—   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:57 I have compassion fatigue. Col. Jannell MacAulay 49:59 Which is very true, and it's a very real thing, and I'm not giving you an excuse, I'm telling you, you need to fix it, and here's how you need to every time, like the whole time you're at work during the day, you need to shed all the mental distress that happens. You need to shed the empathy, right? Your empathetic, the empathy that you use when you're in an interaction with someone builds like extra stress into your. It's actually in your like body, yes? Right? Like, exactly. you take on those physical, and it becomes a physical manifestation. You need to shed that. So, what I have is called a waterfall technique.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 50:36 Waterfall?   Col. Jannell MacAulay 50:38 So when you're, yeah, yep, so when you're engaging with people, remember we don't want to be distracted and not paying attention. So, put your phone away once you invite someone in your office. I don't have it. It distracts you by 20% if you have it on your body or in your view, right? Just have it put away. So now you're more attentive. Then I'm going to listen to you when you tell me whatever's going on in your life, and I'm going to envision we're at the top of the waterfall. Visualization is very powerful for our minds, so we're going to visualize that waterfall, and I'm talking to you, we're having a conversation, I'm fully present. You might have some stuff going on in your life, like I might have to take a note, I might be OK, follow up, I might give you some mentorship, but when we're done, your problems go down the waterfall, right? Like, we want to feel, “Oh, I’m  their commander.” No, it's still not your problem, right? The problem goes down the waterfall, so then the next person can come in. Now you're at the top of the waterfall again. I'm fully present with my next person that's coming in. I'm paying attention, I'm not thinking about the other conversation. Then when we're done, your problems get to go down the waterfall. It will protect your energy, it will protect your compassion, and so that when you go home, it'll just offer, you know. And then the other technique is before you walk in the door, do a mindful, mindful minute. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:48 Mindful minute right there. Col. Jannell MacAulay 51:49 Right. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:49 Well, I'm glad you shared three, because I think you know, I think that's what it's about when you're on your leadership journey, and I think leadership is a lifelong journey, and I think anything we can do better, not only to help others but to help ourselves as well, is really important. So, thank you for sharing that. Well, I want, before we close, I want to go into this moment, because you said yourself is a little bit vulnerable, you've written a book. Let's talk about Breathless, and this journey you've now undertaken. Col. Jannell MacAulay 52:17 So, Breathless is the story of mothers, and it's my story. And one of the women that worked on my Syria team with me, she was an Army officer, and we were both mothers of very young children at the time, and we also have two mothers in Syria that are sharing their stories with us, and they lost their children in a chemical attack. And so it's a story of mothers persevering through unimaginable odds, us working breathlessly to solve this problem, and basically having kind of this weight of the world on us to come up with a solution that would work and solve the problem, and then these mothers living in this horrible genocide, right, in this horrible time of a civil war, and under a ruthless dictator, and so they, the only reason why we're able to share their stories is because Assad, right, the liberation happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 53:16 I was like, I was going to say they’re actually featured in your book. Gotcha. Col. Jannell MacAulay 53:20 Yes, and we originally started writing this book without their stories, and then once Assad fell, like we reached out and we got two mothers to share their story, and one of the mothers, her children were just slightly older than my children, and she lost both of them. The other mother lost her daughter, and her daughter was in prison during the Arab Spring. Her son traded out with her daughter because she was afraid of the conditions and what was going to happen to her daughter in prison. So the brother traded out with his sister, and the mother didn't find out until — her name is Amsaeed — she did not find out that her son Saeed had died, executed with 25 other prisoners before Assad left the country, so she didn't find that out till after liberation, so she lost a son, she lost a daughter, this other mother had two children taken from her, and so the story is about both of our struggles. Sarin literally takes her breath away, and we were working breathlessly, you know, to help them, and just the story of what it means to be a mother, like what a mother's love, what a mother's heart will do. And I just talked to Amsaeed last wee

Answering the Bell - Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford ’97

SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, U.S. Air Force Academy boxing coach Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford ’97 shares how the sport shaped his approach to leadership, service and mentoring the next generation of cadets. A strong conversation on resilience and growth.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/answering-bell-mark-clifford-97/?token=a4732c47520c409f89accc34e4c485c3]  |  FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/answering-bell-mark-clifford-97/?token=a4732c47520c409f89accc34e4c485c3]   COACH CLIFFORD'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS * Leadership is about others, not you. Elevate the people around you—when your team wins, you win. * Iron sharpens iron. Seek (and create) hard reps, tougher opponents, and uncomfortable situations to build real capability. * Look for “dogs,” not resumes. Prioritize competitiveness, resilience, and willingness to get hit and keep going over pedigree. * Turn on the hot water. Know when it’s time to flip the switch from relaxed and joking to locked-in, all-business execution. * Take the punch, then execute. Composure after getting hit—physically or metaphorically—is the true test of a leader. * Accountability and care must coexist. You can deeply care for people and still enforce standards, discipline, and consequences. * Bloom where you’re planted. Be the best where you are before chasing the next opportunity; stop leading with the exit plan. * Don’t lead only with rank. Some of the strongest leaders on his team lead through work ethic, example, and quiet influence. * Use mentors; don’t go it alone. Pick up the phone, ask for help, and learn from those who’ve led through similar moments. * Family and support systems are force multipliers. A stable, supportive home front enables you to show up fully for the mission.   CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Intro: “Sometimes leadership means the mission stopped being about you” + Mark’s accolades 00:01:40 – From hoops to the ring: leaving basketball, discovering boxing, and Coach Weichers’ influence 00:03:55 – Finding “dogs”: how Mark recruits scrappy, resilient cadets and builds national champions 00:07:57 – Growing up competitive: family, academics-first father and rivalry with his brother 00:11:09 – Leadership from the ring: iron sharpening iron and elevating everyone on the team 00:14:30 – Warrior mindset: teaching cadets to take a punch, stay composed and execute a plan 00:19:00 – Riding the emotional highs and lows: coaching, winning, losing and not burning out 00:21:08 – Accountability with heart: tough call in Korea, stripes, and good order and discipline 00:24:36 – Competing together: peer squadron commanders, shared struggle and mutual support 00:28:05 – When you want to quit: advice Col. Clifford got, what he tells cadets now and “bloom where you’re planted” 00:32:16 – Quiet leaders and culture: cadets who lead through work ethic and example 00:37:23 – Daily leadership reps: mental prep, PE classes, influence in the athletic department 00:43:11 – Talk to young Col. Clifford: trust the process, shake off negativity and the power of family support   ABOUT BIO Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford, a 1997 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy and former National Collegiate Boxing Association champion, is in his second season as head coach of the Air Force boxing program after leading the women’s team to its first NCBA national title in his debut season, highlighted by a program-record four individual champions and a sweep of the men’s and women’s NCBA Western Regional titles. A former team captain and three-time NCBA All-American as a cadet, Col. Clifford also served two stints as an assistant coach, contributing to four national team championships and 21 individual national champions. He retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel after 20 years of service, including assignments as director of fuel operations for Air Force One, commander roles in Hawaii and South Korea, combat tours supporting Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, and work on the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Following his military career, Col. Clifford held leadership positions at Grand Canyon University and the DREAM Foundation, focusing on sports management education and mentorship opportunities for students. He earned a master’s degree from the University of Maryland Global Campus and a doctorate from the University of New Mexico.   CONNECT WITH MARK LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-clifford/]  |  FALCON ATHLETICS [https://goairforcefalcons.com/sports/boxing/roster/coaches/dr-mark-clifford/2701]   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://usafa.org/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS: Guest, Coach Mark Clifford ’97  |  Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz ’99   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Sometimes leadership means realizing the mission stopped being about you a long time ago. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Mark Clifford, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.   Col. Mark Clifford 0:14 Thanks for having me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15 Absolutely, you know, we could jump right in, but before I do, I have to just talk about this. I had to write this down to make sure I didn't miss it. Boxing team captain, obviously; three-time Wing Open champ; three-time regional champ, three-time National Collegiate Boxing Association All-American, and the national champion of the NCBA your senior year.   Col. Mark Clifford 0:33 Yes, ma'am.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34 I mean, that's just, and that's just as a cadet. Then you went on to serve 20 years in the Air Force as a logistics readiness officer, you know, you're commanding and you're leading squadrons. In addition to that, on the higher education side, assistant dean at Grand Canyon University in sports business.   Col. Mark Clifford 0:49 Yes, yeah, ran the sport management program when I first got there, probably a year after I got there, just to get my feet wet with higher ed, and then was elevated to the assistant dean of the College of Business. And so it was, it was fun, it was amazing, it was very different from what you're used to in the military, because I tried to come in with a little bit of military mindset, but it’s a civilian institution, so you know, just a little bit different, just bringing myself there and seeing what happened.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:13 Well, you know, I guess what it shows is that you're not afraid to jump in and do, you know, something new. And I think that's — we'll probably discover that in the conversation today. So, maybe where we can start is the fact that you are back at USAFA as the boxing coach. You're here now running and leading the program that shaped you.   Col. Mark Clifford 1:31 Yes.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:32 Let's talk about that.   Col. Mark Clifford 1:33 Yes, let's talk about — I mean, I love the program. You know, I came into the Academy, went to the Prep School, on a five-year plan, like some of us that need a little extra help, little extra year, you know. I took my time and really understand that came in, I'm such a competitor. I was playing basketball at the Prep School, came in my freshman year, hoping to be on the basketball team, worked really hard, did all things the coaches asked me to do, still sat the bench, and so, like a lot of cadets, like every cadet, even our women now have to take boxing class, you know, as a mandatory class.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:04 When did that start? What year? Do you remember?   Col. Mark Clifford 2:07 I want to say 2017 is when the women started. It's always been instituted for our men. So my freshman year I did really well in the class, to the point where I had to box our assistant coach at the time, Ray Carter, for my GR, my test.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:22 Did you get an A? Col. Mark Clifford 2:23 I got an A. But it hurt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:26 For him? Col. Mark Clifford 2:27 Heck no! He was the one punching me. He busted me up pretty good, but I still got the A in the class, and coaches — the same system I use today — is trying to find cadets in boxing class that are competitors that are looking to do more than just be either a cadet or on the team that they're on or ride a bench. I got tired of riding the bench behind a couple of folks until sophomore year, coach came and said, “Hey, you still interested in boxing?” I quit basketball, went to boxing and the rest is history.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:58 You didn't look back at all.   Col. Mark Clifford 2:59 No, you know it's hard to look back because it's shaped — I think we all kind of think back to our cadet years. I know I do sometimes, and kind of reminisce about, “What if?” I remember walking across the street one time, and my brother was ahead of me in ’90s — Class of ’96 — on the football team, and I was walking across the street as a freshman to basketball practice and ran across Coach Fisher DeBerry. “Hey, Clifford, will you come play football with me?” And so, you always think about opportunities that kind of cross your path, and I think about what would have happened if I would have done something different. I don't know if this story would be as successful as it is, based off of what I've learned in boxing and where I am today. And so, I'm very thankful for the program. I'm thankful for Coach Eddie Weichers, who shaped me, was a father figure for us when we were here. And you know, it's tough being a cadet, so you got to have allies and friends and people and mentors, and he was definitely one for me.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:55 Well, I'd love to know, you know — he saw you in class and discovered that talent. How are you finding potential nowadays in the cadets for the program? Because you just happened to have the women who defended a national champion, won it. So, two years now have been the NCBA national champs. Col. Mark Clifford 4:15 I think it's a couple of things I look for. One is, how scrappy are you? I think it was easy at Grand Canyon University to find, you know, the era of COVID, and the resiliency wasn't quite the same as what I remembered when I was here as assistant coach, and as a captain and as a major, as well. The cadets are different, the mentality is different, and so kind of make it simple, I'm looking for dogs, I'm looking for cadets that a) are excited to fight, are not afraid to box, aren't afraid to get hit, love the intensity of the sport, and I can shape that, and you know, the potential piece of that is, can they throw a pretty good punch, and can they take a punch, and they're not, you know, they're not jumping out of the ring with that. That kind of translates into what we're looking for with all of our officers and all officer candidates, is making sure that they can stay there and take a punch, collect themselves, and then go back and execute, right? And so that's what I'm looking for, and I've tried to find those in classes, and you know, a lot of times it's a lot of the athletes.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:21 Right.   Col. Mark Clifford 5:22 Because they're recruited here for other reasons, well, and other…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:24 Other sports.   Col. Mark Clifford 5:25 Other sports, or whatever, and they want to be competitive, and as a freshman and a sophomore. It's tough, because you got juniors and seniors who have experience on the team. They're out there performing, and you're sitting on the bench, well, you know, I get you in the sport where you don’t have to sit the bench.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:43 That's right.   Col. Mark Clifford 5:44 It's top person wins. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:45 So when I think about the team that you formulate and you grow, and they continue to hone in our craft, is it always the athletes that you kind of, that maybe have been benchwarmers, or have you found the diamonds in the rough that maybe have never fought in their lives, and never — that kind of surprise you, that have risen to the top?   Col. Mark Clifford 6:04 You know, there are a lot of diamonds in the rough, there are a lot of, but back to what, there's a lot of cadets that come here that aren't necessarily on a divisional, we're lucky because we have 25% of our population at the Academy are divisional athletes. But there are so many other young cadets that are just as competitive, just as athletic, and looking for something else, and how do you give them something, right? And when they get to come to the Wing Open and see their classmates in the center of Clune Arena, and that thing is filled with all the rest of the Cadet Wing.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:37 Yes, and grads and the community.   Col. Mark Clifford 6:39 And the community. They put the floor seats right there, you can sit ringside, it's an amazing thing. How do I be a part of it? And my philosophy is simple: If you enter the Wing Open and you win, then you're the person that represents this for regions and nationals. There's no favoritism, because I quote, unquote, recruited Naviere as a freshman. Now she's a senior, well, the senior gets her butt whooped, I'm taking a freshman. And so it's a very fair system, and so you find those diamonds in the rough. I'll give you one — two-time national champ. She's our team captain this year, Elise Bell. I don't think she's ever fought in her life.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:16 Wow.   Col. Mark Clifford 7:16 When I walked in the gym last year, my first year, I just noticed her work ethic. How do you just pour into something like that and refine that in the gym to become a national champ. And last year — I just love to tell her story, because last year I believe in regionals and nationals, every first round she lost 5-0 to the judges. She was losing, and she won every bout.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:42 Interesting.   Col. Mark Clifford 7:43 So it's just — you find those, and I'm hoping to find more of those cadets that just have that same energy, that resilience, that toughness and courage, really, and willingness to do what we ask you to do.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:58 So, were you like that growing up? Were you someone that had this mindset of, you know, a work ethic and, you know, scrappy, you know, before even getting into boxing? Were you like that as a kid?   Col. Mark Clifford 8:09 I was just a competitor, and that's my father, that's my mother, that's my grandmother, my father's side, who was very — everything had to be put into place. My father was born in 1929 in Washington, D.C., went to Howard University, ROTC post-Tuskegee, and entered the Air Force through ROTC in 1949.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:41 Wow.   Col. Mark Clifford 8:42 So his thing was academics, always. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:45 Yes.   Col. Mark Clifford 8:45 But I had a brother who was a year ahead of me, and it was academics for both of us. But how do you best the guy that's right next to you? Like, it was always just — my brother's name is Larry. That's what Larry and I always did, whether it was girls or sports, school, right? Yeah, it was always   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:02 You drove each other. Col. Mark Clifford 9:03 We drove each other, and it's just — it was amazing. You don't realize that until you're older, and so you go, “Yeah, that's what that did.” And so I think I was always just, 1) I was always a competitor, like I wasn't always the best, but I'd like to try to strive to be, and so that was just kind of how I was shaped.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22 So was your dad very excited when you — you were recruited to the Academy, is that correct?   Col. Mark Clifford 9:28 My dad kind of wanted me to go — more so than maybe I wanted to go.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34 When did you realize, like — because obviously you were on the five-year plan, right? So I think you had a couple of times to make a decision, like, “I’m good,” but you stayed. So when was it that it really connected with you that this is where I want to be, and I want to stay. Col. Mark Clifford 9:47 Probably after my sophomore year.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:50 OK.   Col. Mark Clifford 9:50 Yeah, because my first three years, like, I wanted to play basketball so bad. I was trying to recruit myself. This is when you had to go send out your videotape. You know what I’m saying. You’re there with me.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:01 Yes, yes, paper. Email's not the thing back then. All paper.   Col. Mark Clifford 10:05 All paper. I’m trying to send videotapes out. Spring break at the Prep School, I think I went to Cal Riverside and tried to meet with the coach and drop off my tape. That's how bad I wanted to play basketball, right, and then I found success in boxing, and it was, I think, why go anywhere else? You start to realize, you get over, like, you're gonna have a job when you graduate. I don't have to look for a job, I don't have to go out there and struggle. I'm gonna get what I want to do out of the military, and it's gonna be a five-year thing for me, and then I'm out, right? And so I think that's what it was. I think it was my sophomore year, and I was going, my grades are terrible. I could say that now. It was — but no one's ever asked me for my GPA. I still was able to get a doctorate. Like, there's things that happen in your life that you'll still be able to achieve success, even though you weren't as great at it before. And so, yeah, I think it was just the realization of, “I could do this.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:09 So in that journey of, you know, wanting to play basketball so bad, finding a space and a place that really you started to hone in on yourself in boxing, and then, you know, went into the Air Force, you were leading. What have you found out about yourself in a leadership perspective through those different situations, whether you ended up not playing basketball or something that went really well for you, like national champ?   Col. Mark Clifford 11:35 I think just overall leadership was the ability for me to impact others to be successful, and I think that's what I took out of boxing, because it is an individual sport, but it's very team-oriented. We don't put banners on the wall that say “national champion” without a team mentality to make sure that our teammate, left and right of us, are also excelling. And so, in a small sport like boxing, at a time where I boxed, there was 12 weight classes, but you're boxing the guy above a weight and below a weight, because you're trying to make that person better, iron sharpens iron.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:10 Right.   Col. Mark Clifford 12:10 I also had, I was a 172-, 175-pounder boxing the heavyweight, because in my mind was no one's gonna hit me as hard as this guy is gonna hit me.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:19 That's right.   Col. Mark Clifford 12:20 And so if I can stand and get and last with this guy, I can last with anybody in college boxing. And that flowed for me into the military of — and part of my philosophy was how do I elevate everybody else, because I realized here at the Academy it's not about us, right? We're in the people business to make sure people around us are elevated, have the things that they need, resources they need to make sure that they're doing the job the best of their ability. Because then the unit does better as a team. The wing does better as a team. It's not about us individually. And so I think for me being able to translate that out of boxing into my Air Force career was part of what shaped me as a leader to make myself successful.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:02 Did you find yourself seeing if anyone could take a punch from you in your Air Force uniform, or how did you do that?   Col. Mark Clifford 13:10 Well, you know, I punch my words when I know you can't put your hands on people.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:16 Of course.   Col. Mark Clifford 13:19 You know, back in the early days, you know, I think the chief excused me from a meeting, and the meeting was back behind the fuel watershed. I can't remember…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:32 Fair enough.   Col. Mark Clifford 13:33 Some wall-to-wall training that was going on with other individuals, but hey, chief said it was good. Roger that chief.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:40 That's hilarious.   Col. Mark Clifford 13:41 Yeah, no, you know, you don't put your hands on people. I used to have to tell people, “Don't let my smile fool you,” you know. I like to have a good time, I enjoy myself, I enjoy the people that I'm around. Also, I know our job is very serious, and I was very serious about our job. And so, part of my leadership philosophy was always — my dad's thing was the Golden Rule, you know, treat people the way that you want to be treated. And I always — there's some things here at the Academy that I didn't love, so I took away from, “I'm not going to be that type of person,” into accountability, holding people accountable, myself included. And so even at the Academy, as a knucklehead cadet, I did goofy stuff. I'd be the first one to say, yeah, I take my lumps, march my tours, take my Form 10, do what you need to do, but just survive the place and learn from it, and it shapes you out as a leader.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:31 Absolutely. You know, I'm curious, because I think about — you just said, “I like to have fun,” and you know, “but don't let my smile fool you.” You know, when you think about boxing and the mentality you have to have to literally stand across from somebody and hit someone, or take a punch, or you know, be hit back. How do you train that kind of mindset? Because I have to think it parallels a lot with the fact that we are developing warfighters. You know, how do you train that?   Col. Mark Clifford 14:57 Yeah, you know, that's kind of the bottom line of the boxing class. It's not about finding championship boxers. The boxing class is about exactly what you just outlined. It's how do you, as an individual, put a strategy and plan together knowing that you have an adversary across the ring that's going to hurt you. Like, the object of the game is to punch you. Pros is more so to hurt you. College boxing, amateurs, more to score more points than you. Bottom line, they'll hurt you, and that mentality of how do you compose yourself? Do the things that we asked you to do: a) defend yourself, b) have an offensive plan, even if you're losing, how do you compose yourself? Right, part of that warrior spirit is making sure that we always have that mindset of how we're going to achieve and beat our adversaries, and I think that's the bottom line of the boxing class. It's just, how do we do that? So, the mindset is exactly that, is you know you're gonna get punched, but can you punch that person when they punch you? Can you put some other things in place that I gave you tools — that I gave you, head movement, defensive movement — to take those punches away, right? From a strategic standpoint, and then be offensive, and then score your points.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11 Right.   Col. Mark Clifford 16:11 And so that's the mentality we try to have boxers to make sure that this is a sport where you're gonna get hit. Once you get past that hurdle, it's good, right? It's how you work on all these other skill sets that make you better than your opponent. And if the other person's just as skilled as you are, what's the edge that we get? And I think that's part of our mental preparation that we do as well as our physical preparation.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:34 So I think about you shaping that for the team, both the men and women. How was that shaped for you? Was that your coach at the time, Eddie Weichers? Was that Wiechers? Was that someone in your family? Who were those mentors in your life?   Col. Mark Clifford 16:45 For me, it was Eddie Weichers and Ray Carter. Ray Carter was an enlisted assistant coach, and he was four-time, I think, All-Air Force heavyweight champ. Those two were instrumental for me, especially during my career times, before my time as a boxer, because I would work hard, work out a lot with Coach Carter, because the same mentality helped with a heavyweight. If this big joker can hit me, I can take the punch… He's also going to teach me some things. I mean, Coach Weichers was the same. It was the mental piece that his thing was knowing to turn on the hot water, and it was because I would have a good time, enjoy practice, have fun with the guys, but when you step in that ring, turn the hot water on, it's all about business. So, then, when you step out, turn it back on to cold, go back to goofing off and doing things that you do, but you get in there, it's all about business. And so, how do you train your mind to go, like, man, “I gotta go to war right now?” And it was, you know, I had a preparation before I got to the ring, and some things that I did that helped me mentally prepare before I jumped in there, but…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:52 What did you do?   Col. Mark Clifford 17:53 You know, again, it was the Walkman CD Walkman, the CD Walkman. And I couldn't jump around too much because it was Skip. Yeah, the CB was skip had the little baby headphones had my little do rag on and I would just zone out on some music, I would zone out on music until it was time for me to get up and do my physical warm up with some jumping some rope shadow boxing and maybe little hand mitts with the coach before I jumped in the ring, but OK, yeah, it was a, you know, I couldn't jump around too much. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:25 It would skip, that's true. Now they just have — they don't have to have anything connected, just put in their ears.   Col. Mark Clifford 18:30 I'm jealous about it, to be honest.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:35 So I imagine when you're coaching, and I'm saying I imagine because I've not coached ever to this level. I coach my son's little league basketball team, but which is a whole different level of coaching, but what I find curious is, have you ever found yourself in the feeling of, because you know how it felt when you win, when you lose, and when you watch your cadets going through that, how does that affect you as a coach? Col. Mark Clifford 19:01 Yes, I'm learning to not, I'm learning to not ride the emotion like they do, but I definitely did my first year, I think, as an assistant coach. So, I was assistant coach with Coach Wishers five years total as active duty officer, and that was different because I was on the sideline, he was the main guy, I was a support guy, but when you're the head guy, you're the one that gives the kids advice, giving them the strategy, and then really I felt it at nationals, especially when we started to win in with our women, we our first female won in the first half of the day, a freshman, I don't know if she was expected to win. She didn't expect to win, but in our hearts, in our minds, we knew. And then this is the motion, because I know how hard they work and what it takes to get your hand raised, because I came up short my first two years when I'm the guy standing with my hands down, the other guy's hand is raised, and then getting my hand raised my senior year was the most amazing feeling. I rode that same emotion when we lost, when we won, and I was worn out and tired. So I'm trying to train myself not to try to ride that emotion, but it's hard, like you know. I want to be in there with them, and I feel the same things that they feel, because I went through that same process they went through. And so it's interesting dynamic because I'm trying to peel myself away from mine. I just haven't detached yet. I think I'm still emotionally and mentally driven by what happens with our cadets, and it's a weird feeling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:36 I imagine as a leader that's probably a common challenge you have because you care so deeply about your team, like family, that you do get emotional, right, and that might even be one of the sharpest knives in your, in your kit. It's just, you know, how you employ it, I guess.   Col. Mark Clifford 20:52 Yeah, you know, that reminds me of a really tough situation when I was a commander in Korea. Back to, had to hold somebody accountable with that person. Part of the discipline action was taking a strike, right, blah blah blah, the things that happened for something negative, right, but he's such a good person, and it was a first, first mistake, but it was a big one, and what that led to was a person dropping rank, but then hitting higher tenure, and couldn't test for the next strike, and so I really struggled with that, and had really tough conversations with not only the group chief, but my commander, right, and my chief, my first sergeant. Is this really the right thing for this individual? I think ultimately for good organ discipline. Yes, I think emotionally because it was a small unit. We were in Korea, his, he had his wife there, I had my family there, right? So they became friends, close, right, close enough, because such a small group, and that's the type of organization that I like to have, because I think if it's you, almost play that disappointment role or daddy role, or whatever, however you want to characterize it, that leadership style, but it was, man, you really got to depend on your brother or sister, you let that person down, and you let us all down. Yes, and so that's part of my leadership style, especially in Korea. I took over for a commander that was let go and fired, and so there was a whole cultural change I had to do, so that was when the “don't let the smile full you” happened, right? And you just had to make sure that you held people accountable. That was one of the tough ones where emotionally you're going, "Man, am I making the right call?” Organizationally, absolutely. Personally, for that individual, it was tough. It was tough. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:36 How did those moments stretch you as a leader? I find that fascinating, because you do. You have such a warm and, you know, fun personality about you. I mean, I think when you think about command and the decisions you've had to make at different times, both in the ring, out of the ring, in uniform, et cetera. How did you grow as a leader?   Col. Mark Clifford 22:53 I think we all grow every day. I think, for me, I lean a lot on my mentors. I'm not afraid to ask for help, right? I learned that early in my career, that it took me a while, because I was in the way, but it took me a while to understand that I can pick up the phone and ask somebody for help, and they're going to help you, because, as an organization, our Air Force, our Space Force is all about making sure people are successful. We don't set people up for failure. Why? Because if one individual fails, yeah. So I think for me making those tough calls was was challenging, because because of my leadership style. I think it was, I want people to get along, I want our team to be meet the standard of excellence, if not exceeded. I want us to be always on that front edge, because I'm a competitor. Yes, I want to be the best, but also that comes with accountability and tough decisions. And I think when you have to be in the moment, make some of those tough decisions, that's you just have to go back and reflect. You have to lean on people that do the same thing. I had a great group of fellow squadron commanders at my first command in Hawaii, that's a really terrible basis to go to, that's why I stayed there for 20, that's why I stayed there for 20. The plan was five. Oh, yes, yeah, 20 happened because I had some great people around me, and I, and the bases weren't bad either, and so my family loved it, and we saw some rough assignments, but it ended up being great, but I can lean on my fellow squadron commanders if I had some enough time. But it was just a bitch session, or if it was a leadership lesson. Most of us were about the same year group, age group. I think one or two of the commanders was a year or two ahead of me, but it was just — we weren't competing with each other. We were making sure we were all competing together and being successful together. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:53 I think about that theme of being a competitor, and I remember you telling me about your brother and your dad. So, has there been a continued, you know, competition, and how you guys have done in your, in your careers and in life, or have you leaned back to your dad, like, “Hey, Dad, so how do you go about this?”   Col. Mark Clifford 25:09 No, you know, we unfortunately lost my dad a couple years ago.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:13 Oh, I’m sorry. Col. Mark Clifford 25:13 No, it's OK; 94 years of an amazing life. I found some old pictures of him and Chappie James, which is pretty — talk about history and legacy. But no, I think my brother — I found out — so, my brother left after his sophomore year. He hadn't finished the Academy. He stuck around here another year, so my sophomore year, and I really came to find out, although we competed against each other our entire lives, he was my No. 1 fan, and I didn’t even know it. It was like — he would tell me stories of, I think, my first Wing Open, maybe my second Wing Open — my first Wing Open sophomore year, that he, for the first time, said some cuss words next to my dad because they were in the stands, because he was cheering for me, and it was just funny to hear, like, we're grown-ups, but you can't cuss in front of my dad. You don’t say those things. He was like, “Oh no, Dad's gonna get me.” But no, I think since then it's been a really supportive relationship, and like anything that I do, he'll call me as soon as we're competing anywhere as a coach now, ask how we did, how the cadets did, he said he's proud of me, I'm proud of him too, and he's doing real estate in Southern California with his wife and his family. So it was weird to see that, or hear that from him, because it was always like…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:31 Yeah, you were always like mmmm mmmm. Looking over your shoulders. Col. Mark Clifford 26:35 Yeah, like who’s going to get who? But it was awesome. It was kind of cool.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:38 I love that, and I'm just thinking, you know, I'm sorry to hear of your dad passing, but I'm sure throughout those years you had many calls to him about, you know, some of those decisions you had to make in uniform, and I'm sure he was extremely proud of you making it a career.   Col. Mark Clifford 26:51 Yeah, yeah, I think he also was surprised I lasted as long as I did, just because I was so against it early on in my career. But no, I've been super proud, and it was always good to come home and just kind of share some stories with him, and he would reflect back on his stories, and he was a fighter pilot, and so just some of his fighter-pilot stories, and you know, the things that shaped me — talk about moments in your career and moments that shaped his career. It was just — it’s just cool to have somebody like that in a different era that can share the different challenges, but also the same.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:31 That's a good point. Yeah.   Col. Mark Clifford 27:32 I think that's what's interesting with the military, like, and coming back to the Academy is a perfect example. Like, there's challenges that we have, they're kind of the same that we've had, probably 15 years ago when I was here.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:45 Like a cycle.   Col. Mark Clifford 27:46 It’s a cycle. Yeah. So it's like now you have new leaders, how do they work through these different challenges differently than we did before? Not that we need to repeat history, but at the same time, you know what I'm saying, it just becomes a cyclical thing, that was how do we work. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:03 How do we navigate that? Yeah. Col. Mark Clifford 28:05 The same stuff, yeah. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:06 I want to go back to something you said, and I think it probably plays into some of the cadets that you work with, and or help to coach. You talked about how you weren't sure you wanted to go to the Academy, and staying, you know. The idea of quitting is where I'm really kind of going. What advice have you received to help you not quit, or to kind of push through when you wanted to quit? And have you seen that with cadets, and how are you navigating that?   Col. Mark Clifford 28:29 Yes, and yes. I think the best advice I received when I was thinking about quitting was, “Just really ask yourself why, what's the purpose, and then where you're going to go, like what's the plan?” And that's what was one of my dad's themes was, especially when I got out, was looking to navigate civilian jobs, right, but you don't leave something unless you got something else in your other hand. And so I was like, “How do you really focus in on being the best at where you're at, right, before you even think about stepping somewhere else?” And I had to reflect on that, especially as a cadet, was I really being the best at where I was as a freshman? Sophomore, I could tell you no, because I wanted so many other things, and it wasn't had anything to do with the Academy, had nothing to do with the Academy, but you know…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:21 You were focused on basketball…   Col. Mark Clifford 29:23 Focused on other things until I could really be the best at all the things, and it's a balance here at the Academy — academically, militarily, athletically. I wanted to be the best athletically. How do I go win a national championship as the boxer? And so I found out that you've got to prioritize, which is… Right? We all had to do that. We all have to do that in our lives today. And so my priority was boxing, because I wanted to be great at athletics; academics, because I knew I can't get out of this place unless academics met the standard.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:01 And you couldn’t box here…   Col. Mark Clifford 30:03 And I couldn’t do that without the academics. My dad saying, like, “You don't do anything else unless your academics are where they need to be.” And lastly — it was OK for me militarily. I can make the military stuff work. It wasn't my party. Maybe I should have bowed a little bit more. So I share that with our cadets. Is how do you balance those things that want to make you successful? The one thing I tell the cadets now is, because I've been in the civilian world, it's tough. Like, if you leave here, you got to navigate A, go get a degree, and then B, trying to find a job which meets your standard and the standard of living that you want to have, it's going to be difficult. It's not — and so it's still a cadet's choice. Yes, and we've talked to them about, like, all right, make sure you put things in place to make yourself successful. But I try to give them same advice. I said, “There's no other place outside of the three military academies where you’re going to go through a really tough time, you're going to have really awesome friends, you're gonna have a great experience, and, oh, by the way, you have a job, and you graduate — with free medical and dental, like that stuff's not cheap. Yeah, so I, you know, I think I share those things with the cadets, especially when they talk about leaving. And then I like to share — I try not to go back to, “Oh, back in my day” with that.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:19 Because our day was a long time ago.   Col. Mark Clifford 31:21 Now you didn’t have to say it out loud. I think we know that, but it's true, you know, it's there are still some challenges out there, but they have to navigate the waters, and there's some things that they do differently now at the Academy that we did when we were at the Academy, but this is a really cool place. It's a great place to be from. It's a great place to put on a resume when you decide to get out of the military after your obligation. It's a great place because they're gonna give you a job and occupation. You get to fly jets if that's what you want to do. There's so many opportunities here that the cadets have.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:59 Yes.   Col. Mark Clifford 31:59 And I just overload them with that, because I think it is an amazing place. And the reason why I come back to it, because I think so highly of what it's done for me and shaped me. How can I do that for others and mentor others to make sure that they have a similar experience, but a successful one, no matter what their story is.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:17 Can you share an example of a cadet that surprised you from a leadership perspective, because of their work with you and their time in the ring.   Col. Mark Clifford 32:25 Well, it's hard. So I'm only in my second year. I've got a couple of seniors this year. Elise Bell is one of them. Her fiancé, Kamari Jackson, is a cadet I met when I was here. He was starting his junior year, he's coming off a neck injury, and I challenged him because he's hanging around the gym. I didn't know why. Now I know why. I thought it was boxing, it wasn't. It was Elise, but I'm good with that, you know. I would whisper in Elise's ear, try to get him back, because he was really good as a freshman. Then got hurt, but he's another young man that's just took leadership by the horn. Came in back this year, I challenged him to be at a certain weight. He said, “Coach, I'm coming back, I want to win it. I made weight.” I didn't think he was going to make the weight his first semester, fall semester. He was a squadron commander, plate is full but still made it down. Was one of those — he wasn't our team captain, but he was a team captain.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:26 Yes.   Col. Mark Clifford 33:27 It was just one of those…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:28 …leading without rank or title.   Col. Mark Clifford 33:30 You didn't need it, yeah, but he just had that. He has an aura. I wouldn't say he surprised me. I just think it was just one of those success stories where you're going, man. I love to have a team like this that just — and we do. They lead in their own way. We've got some quiet ones; I've got some vocal ones. I've got ones — our senior this year, our heavyweight, the one that won the Wing Open, he did it with his work ethic. Elise Bell, she leads with her work ethic. There are different ways of leading in the gym, and I try to harness that, and then elevate those that are doing it, making sure the team sees what they're doing. There's a young lady, she's very quiet, prior enlisted two-time national champ now. She's won three Wing Opens, she's gonna probably get her fourth as a senior, she's gonna be our team captain this year, because she's quiet, but it brings out her show, forces her to use her voice a little bit more, because she does it quietly with her work ethic in the corner. But you all see her because she's always in the ring and she's always working. So, I wouldn't say they surprised me just yet. I haven't had so many surprises just yet, but I've had some that has solidified my resolve in why I came back because they understand where they're going, they're learning what leadership is, because you don't always have to vocally stand on the pedestal and be the person on top to be a leader, and I love that piece of this.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:56 So, I'm sure maybe this is a silly question, but obviously you have been assistant coach in the past. What made you come back as head coach?   Col. Mark Clifford 35:03 It's a silly question, Naviere. These cadets — no, this place is special. I love the Athletic Department. I mean, back to what it's done for me: I had the opportunity to come back as a young captain, working in the athletic department, was able to get a doctorate degree out of this place, was able to come back again and be around the cadets to learn more from Coach Eddie Weichers. And I think all of those parts and pieces helped develop me, because it put me in positions where I was able to grab jobs and be in positions to be successful. I had no business picking up a squadron command the second time I was here, but I was able to pick up the squadron command, because I had people pulling for me, pushing for me, and that's what you go back to, like you said before, what helped shape you, and that it's just the people around here that help shape me. And how do I come back and give back to an institution, to a department that really shaped me as an individual? And that's what I'm doing. I think I come back because it's — I want to see the cadets who struggled like me, and I find them in class too, that are debating whether they want to be or not, looking for something else to be a part of, and I always invite them to be part of the boxing family, because I know what boxing did for me and others who went through this program that were competitive, that couldn't make another team, or wasn't on a different team that wanted to show their skill that wanted to balance something from the academic side, because that is so stressful. Punching something is very stress relieving. There's something about it — especially if I can punch something in the face in front of other people and not get in trouble — I was doing it. And so I think being able to come back and give that opportunity to other cadets and then watch them flourish with it and grow with it, I think is why I'm back. And so I'm thankful for the athletic department. I'm thankful for the Academy. So, how do I pay it forward in my way, paying it forward? This is my way of paying it forward.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:02 I love that. Well, I want to ask you something that we ask our guests on this, because it's really about how you continue to hone your skills as a leader through all the journeys, right? In uniform, out of uniform, in the private sector, higher education, etc. What is something you do every day to be better as a leader?   Col. Mark Clifford 37:23 Well, you know, I think is internally, “How do I have an impact,” as a head coach in the athletic department, and I'm not an NCAA sport like some of our other coaches. How do I impact people around me in my sphere of influence? It's very different now when you're an officer, when you're a commander, you have entire unit that you have impact on. Mine are smaller. One, it's internally with my team, is how do I lead and impact my team, and so I want to make sure that I'm always prepared to support our cadets through practice, having a plan for them so they know when they walk in the door what we're supposed to do. Because I think that's important from a discipline standpoint of knowing and understanding what I have to do when I get to the gym, and what my end goal is. And I always come in for that mentally prepared, and then mentally preparing them for the rest of the season, because we have a long season. And then I always think about my series of influence. I'm in the athletic department on the physical education side. How do I make sure I am prepared for the other cadets in classes that aren't on the team? Make sure they have a positive experience in PE class, but also I make sure they know that I'm a grad. I make sure that they know I'm a high-level guy, because I think there's value in that when they can always ask questions that are driven towards operational air force, not necessarily about this particular class. So I make sure I'm prepared for those cadets, and then how do I then allow myself to be available for the rest of the department, not only the physical education department, but our athletic directors, and making sure that I'm a resource. I've been here before, right? I understand something. I may not have all the answers, but I'm willing to help the support. I'm always preparing myself daily for the cadets and the staff and the folks around me that my sphere of influence has, at least the best part of me every time I can work. And so I think daily for me it's a mental preparation, but also, you know, prepping for the day of the day of, from a leadership perspective, because my leadership role is very different now than what it was when you're active duty, when you're sitting at Grand Canyon University as a dean or assistant dean, right? Your influence is very different.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:40 So mentally you prepare yourself. What does that look like as far as like activity, right? So, are you taking care of yourself physically, so that you have the capacity to do more? Are you — I'm just curious, like, what does that look like when you say you're preparing yourself? Col. Mark Clifford 39:56 I do a couple of things. I think in the morning when I get up, I have a cup of coffee, and we typically — my wife and I typically watch the news together. It is thinking about the impacts of what happens in our world, how that impacts our Academy. I don't think — there's very little ripple effect that gets to the cadet, but also understanding why what's happening in our world is important to a cadet. I always try to prepare myself for those conversations, just in case they come up, and they have come up in classes sometimes. But I just give my perspective more so. Physically, I hit the gym, I work in a gym, so my wife says I have no excuse, at least you better be in a gym using equipment. I physically do that, and then I try to make sure I walk through our gym and put pieces together, equipment together, and make sure the equipment's in place and ready for our cadets, and sometimes I box and stuff. I gotta stay sharp.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:01 I was gonna ask, you know, how that you did with what was his name, the assistant coach at the time, Ray…   Col. Mark Clifford 41:06 Ray Carter.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:07 Yes, are you ever across in the ring with someone; with a cadet?   Col. Mark Clifford 41:12 My first year, I did. My last year, I let the young captains and majors do that. I realized that my mind will say do something — move out the way. I don't move out the way as quick as I used to, but I think I do.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:27 Then you feel that you didn’t. Col. Mark Clifford 41:12 Exactly. I didn’t. Never let the cadets know they got you.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:33 That's funny. All right, I want to ask you one more question. What's something, if you could have a conversation with young Mark as a cadet today, what would you tell yourself?   Col. Mark Clifford 41:44 I think the one thing I would tell myself is, trust the process, be the best that you can be, where you are, and where you're playing it, and do that to the best of your ability, and then shake off the negativity and the nonsense. I had some great friends here, but also some friends that didn't want to be here either, and so you feed off that negativity. I think that got into who I was, especially as a young cadet, because some of that negativity that probably kept me from being my best in certain areas, especially academically, especially militarily, because I think if I were able to do that, maybe my outcome probably would have been on the same trajectory, but also it would have been more positive experience,   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:27 Less painful for sure.   Col. Mark Clifford 42:29 Yeah, not chasing other things, trying to get your tape out, go recruit somewhere else. You're happy where you are, you're doing the best that you can, and it's going to be challenging, tough. And understand that you're going to take some losses, that's what this place is about. It's not always going to be a win, because in life, it's not always a win. And if you can bounce back from a loss, at some point it took me two years, in that third year, I bounced back in the loss to get that W, life becomes very, very easy. Yeah, you kind of figured out, so that's what I tell myself to prepare myself a little better. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:05 No, that's excellent. What's something that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we share?   Col. Mark Clifford 43:11 I think we kind of talked about it, family, my family, my wife's been my rock for almost 30 years, we’re on 29 this year, we're going on 30. We've got two boys that say they don't want to be in the military, I don't want to move. My oldest son is not in the military, he's moved three times since he graduated college two years ago. And then the youngest one, who didn't want to do it, would join officer training school in July.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:34 Congratulations!   Col. Mark Clifford 43:35 Yeah, super-proud. He's taking an eight-week route, not the five-year route. So, I don't know if he's smarter, I don't know how to play that one, but you know, I can't say enough about making sure that your family supports what you do. I could not have been as successful or do the things that I was able to do in the Air Force without my wife Elise and my two boys, Caleb and Jaden, without their support, because there were some tough times when you're deployed and you're gone and you just need that rock to make sure that the household is good, so you focus on your job while you're gone and be home in your home, and she made sure that we did that when we had opportunities, and she also, no matter where we went, made sure it was a home, and so I'm thankful for that, because the boys always had home versus places that we had to move to, right, and like you said, we have some good ones, thankfully. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:29 Well, it sounds like you also have translated that, bringing that that Elise has brought to your family, to your boxing family. I mean, I think when cadets are there, they're home away, this is home away from home, right? And maybe not all of them have father figures or leaders in their lives, and it sounds like you kind of taken that mantle, placed it right there.   Col. Mark Clifford 44:47 I tried, I tried. You know, we talked about this before we started, but I'm gonna push them hard. Make sure that they exceed that level of physicality and mentality that they think they can, because they will exceed it and be able to perform when it's time to perform. And I love it.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:07 Well, Mark, this has been amazing — Coach Clifford, I mean. What you're doing at the program, I mean, you started with you, right, embedded in you, and now you're taking it to the next level. What I learned today in your leadership lessons are those things that you've battled with in the ring, you're bringing out in life, whether in uniform, out of uniform, and you're not only sharing it with those that have been directly on your team, but those that may join your team. You know, we just talked about those basic cadets. So, what I really appreciate about you is you're willing to be there in that with them, celebrating their wins and helping them navigate those losses. So, thanks for being an incredible leader, and thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for investing your time, and for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are on their own leadership journey. You can find this and all our conversations wherever you get your podcasts, or at longblueleadership.org [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fleadership.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cbryan.grossman%40usafa.org%7C8745f862fe004b1e495708deb6bc5c78%7Ce6421ec329ed4f09a13a96e310c5ba80%7C0%7C0%7C639149117332494383%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WJFeTV53Jo6H4gsuCPY%2B8RSdoKcdKo%2BeR2jFjV5apCs%3D&reserved=0]. Until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz.   KEYWORDS Leadership development, servant leadership, transformational leadership, competitive mindset, resilience, mental toughness, accountability, team culture, coaching and mentoring, leading by example, emotional intelligence, authenticity, character development, warrior ethos, growth mindset, discipline, perseverance, decision-making, ethical leadership, influencing without authority, role modeling, performance under pressure, purpose-driven leadership, mentorship, building trust, developing potential, talent identification, culture change, officer development, military leadership, sports leadership, motivation, intrinsic motivation, ownership, responsibility, humility, continuous improvement, self-reflection, family support, work-life integration, peer influence, values-based leadership, strategic thinking, adaptability, handling failure, bouncing back from setbacks, high standards, excellence, preparation, focus, commitment, dedication.     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Obstacles to Opportunity - Col. (Ret.) Erin Staine-Pyne ’98

Leadership isn’t about perfection — it’s about accountability, especially when things don’t go as planned. SUMMARY From lessons learned as a cadet to leading her teams through complex challenges, Col. (Ret.) Erin Staine-Pyne ’98 reflects on how transparency, empathy and trust define strong leadership in uncertain moments.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/obstacles-to-opportunity-erin-staine-pyne-98/?token=50a0f1e8c33dc5162ca2b2e72e880b41]  |  FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/obstacles-to-opportunity-erin-staine-pyne-98/?token=50a0f1e8c33dc5162ca2b2e72e880b41]   ERIN STAINE-PYNE'S TOP LEADERSHIP LESSONS AND TAKEAWAYS  1. Own your mistakes quickly and fully. Col. Staine-Pyne’s cadet party incident shows the power of taking responsibility and using failure as a positive turning point. 2. Forgive fast — others and yourself. Col. Staine-Pyne highlights forgiving herself and the freshman who reported the incident as essential to moving forward productively instead of getting stuck in blame or resentment. Lead with transparency, especially in crisis. Both as a cadet and as a wing commander during COVID, she emphasized open communication. 3. Be visibly human and vulnerable. Sharing personal context built trust and showed airmen she understood their fears, not just the mission. Practice empathy as a core leadership “superpower.” Col. Staine-Pyne stresses learning to truly understand people’s perspectives and lives — not just knowing their names and roles — and then leading with that understanding in mind. 4. Use your team; leadership is not a solo sport. From wing commander “tiger teams” to USAF Weapons School class dynamics, Col. Staine-Pyne consistently relied on senior enlisted leaders, peers, planners and classmates instead of trying to solve everything alone. 5. Balance mission and people with nuance, not slogans. During COVID and high-tempo ops, she wrestled with protecting a “no-fail” mission while also protecting health and morale and adjusting policies and workloads rather than defaulting to one extreme. 6. Don’t self-limit; say yes to stretch opportunities. Col. Staine-Pyne nearly ruled herself out of Weapons School but trusted her leaders’ belief in her and stepped into being the first woman in the school’s C‑130 program — and graduated at the top of her class. Her advice: Apply and let others say no. 7. Integrate work and family intentionally at critical career peaks. Instead of chasing perfect “balance,” Col. Staine-Pyne treats career and family as waves: Lean into work during when needed but consciously bring along family and use leave to truly refresh. 8. See failure as a leadership classroom, not a verdict. From the cadet party incident to the week‑to‑week swings in Weapons School performance, Col. Staine-Pyne views setbacks as information and training for better leadership, not as permanent labels.   CHAPTERS 00:00:02 – Introducing Col. Erin Staine-Pyne  00:00:49 – Cadet Party Incident: A Costly Mistake  00:02:59 – Owning Failure & Learning to Forgive  00:04:49 – Transparency, Reputation and the Cadet Wing  00:06:59 – Early Aspirations & Family Influences  00:08:25 – Becoming a Wing Commander Right Before COVID  00:10:13 – Leading Through a Pandemic & Tough, Unpopular Decisions  00:15:02 – Personal Impact of Command During COVID  00:17:01 – Mentors, Humility & Weapons School Opportunity  00:20:59 – Inside Weapons School: Pressure, Teamwork & Distinction  00:25:44 – Empathy, Tempo and the People‑Mission Balance  00:29:10 – Work–Life Waves, Legacy and Advice to Young Leaders ABOUT COL. ERIN STAINE-PYNE ’98 BIO Col. Erin Staine-Pyne, U.S. Air Force Academy Class of 1998, is a career mobility aviator and proven senior leader with more than 3,500 flight hours in C-17 and C-130 aircraft, former wing commander, and now general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Inspired early by a love of aviation and a father who graduated from West Point, she pursued her dream of flying through the Academy and went on to become an aircraft commander, instructor and, ultimately, the first woman to graduate from the C-130 division of the Air Force Weapons School, where she distinguished herself as the top graduate in her class. Her leadership journey includes commanding a 2,400-person C-17 wing at Joint Base Lewis-McChord through the onset of the COVID pandemic, where she balanced a no-fail nuclear mission, the health and welfare of her airmen and their families, and her own complex family responsibilities with transparency, empathy and a deeply human approach. Known for her team-first mindset, humility and emphasis on learning from failure — as illustrated by formative experiences as a cadet and throughout her operational career — Col. Staine-Pyne now channels her leadership, operational expertise and passion for developing others into bridging military-grade mobility experience with cutting-edge aviation technology in industry, while prioritizing her role as a fully present mom.   CONNECT WITH ERIN LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-staine-pyne/]   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, Erin Staine-Pyne ’98  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Well, Erin, thank you so much for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of ’98. We are so excited for this conversation, because, you know, you've had such an amazing career. You know, 3,500 hours in the C-17 and C-130 cockpits to wing commander — and now you’re general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Just incredible.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:26 Thank you. Such a pleasure to be with you, too, Naviere. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34 Well, you know, we like to jump right in. And there's actually something that is probably unknown, because you have done so many amazing things, and part of that comes with a story that's not always, you know, rainbows and butterflies. And so back when you were a cadet, if you don't mind sharing this with us, I know you were wearing your supt’s pin. You were captain of the soccer team, and you found yourself marching some tours. Do you mind sharing that story with us? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:55 Yeah, no, I don't mind at all, because it turned out to be a great leadership lesson in my life. So yeah, I was kind of at the top of my game, I felt like in my senior year at the Academy, we had a short break going in our soccer season, we had a weekend off, which was pretty rare, and the other captain and I were like, Hey, let's get the girls together, right? We deserve to have a little bit of fun. Take a little break. Like, what could we do to make that happen? And we decided, hey, let's rent a hotel room. We'll throw a little party. We'll have some friends over. What cadets haven't done that exactly. We'll be super responsible. We'll get the hotel room so nobody drives. Yeah, we thought about taking care of each other, but as it turned out, we had a great night, fun time, no harm, no foul. But later that week, we found out that one of the freshmen on our team turned us in for underage drinking. And that was a big, shocking moment in my senior year. So it turned into most of the team being restricted, marching tours, you know, really having their reputation tarnished a bit. And even worse for us, maybe than that, was the season took a huge nosedive. You know, we were in a really good place from a from a sport perspective, and we just couldn't get it back together after that happened. And for me, you know, as I looked back on that event, I'm so thankful that it happened at the Academy and not sometime later in my career, when I was in charge of young airmen, but I'm glad it happened at the Academy and I took a couple of really great lessons out of it.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:44 That is quite a lesson. I mean, I'm just thinking about someone who is a high achiever doing really well, has this reputation of that's, like you said, untarnished. Let's just take a moment in that space, because there are experiences that all leaders have, I think that are challenging in some way, that maybe is reputational. How do you navigate that? How did you carry yourself through that, when it probably felt dark?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 3:11 Yeah it was a little bit bleak. I mean, my family knew about it. But to answer the question, I found myself taking ownership, like, “Ooh, we made a really big mistake. I made a really big mistake as a leader. I took the team the wrong direction.” And so I apologized — like I apologized to the commandant, I apologized to my coaches, I apologized to my teammates, I apologized to some of their parents too, right, that we saw later in the season. And so I think the biggest thing that you can do in that moment is go, “I've really screwed up, and I'll take stock of that and change in the future.” And then the other thing is, you have to learn to forgive fast, like forgive yourself. I made a mistake. This isn't forever, right? It'll be something that I learned along the journey. But then also, for example, the freshmen that turned us in — that was a really emotional moment for the rest of the team.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:17 And you all stayed on the team together? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 4:18 We did for a while. She did end up leaving the Academy eventually, which I'm disappointed about. Like, I kind of feel like that's a little bit of another leadership failure there. But I just think the thing I learned out of it later was you have to forgive quickly. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:33 Wow. I mean, it seems so interesting that you had that kind of lesson so early. But I think one of the best things about the academy is really as a leadership lab we talk about, you know, being able to grow from learning lessons. How would you say your other cadets outside of the bubble? Right? The bubble being those who are in it with you. Because I think in life in general, when things happen, you kind of have this other perspective of people who don't know what's going on, and so then they come up with their own perceptions and thoughts on that. How did you navigate that as a cadet in the Cadet Wing? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 5:09 Yeah, I think it was trying at my first attempts at transparency, yeah, you know, like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” Like, people would ask us, “How much trouble are you guys in?” And at first we'd be like, “Well, we don't really know.” You know? “We don't know what this is going to turn out to look like,” and then once we kind of got our punishment, six months of restriction, 100 tours, 100 confinements, but with the potential, at least for the seniors to still graduate, we tried to share that with people too, like as if the leadership at the Academy still had some faith in us and thought we might still be able to graduate and be lieutenants someday. So, yeah, I would just say we tried some transparency. And, you know, there was also this kind of feeling of, I can't believe that your teammate did that. And we tried to address that too, you know, so it wouldn't come back, especially specifically on her right, as, you know, she was the one at fault here, right, like we were all at fault, you know, not doing the right thing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:14 What a way to rise above. And I think really, what a beautiful story. Because I think some lessons in there, transparency, making sure that it, you know, it was responsibility that everyone took on, and it wasn't starting to point fingers. Because I think it certainly is easy to try and push things away from ourselves, isn't it?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:30 Yeah, absolutely,   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:31 Oh, my goodness, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that was quite a lesson. So you went on to graduate. Yes, yes. And so did you always know you wanted to be a pilot?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:43 I did. Yeah, since I was really young, I knew I wanted to fly airplanes. My parents sent me to Space Academy when I was somewhere around 11 or 12, and I thought, “Oh, I could be an astronaut. Someday, I want to fly the shuttle.” And so that just sparked the interest. And my dad's a West Point grad, and so when I went to him and asked him, “How do you become a pilot?” He said, “Well, you go to the Air Force Academy,” as if there was no other choice out there.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:10 So did you not even apply to West Point?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:11 I didn't. Much to his — I mean, I think that hurt his heart, but I didn't. He took me up there for a visit.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:19 Just in case you want to just see. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:20 Yeah, the Army has lots of pilots. Yes, no, the Air Force Academy was my destination. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:25 That is fascinating. So growing up, were you always someone that was a go-getter? Was this kind of ingrained in you because of your dad the way he raised you? Your mom, like, let's talk about your family dynamic. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:35 And yeah, sure, yeah. My dad an army officer. My mom, super hard worker. Worked in the Senate for a long time as a press secretary, and they just — yeah, they were they were wonderful, and I feel so lucky at the dynamic I had growing up. But yeah, I loved being a leader early, like I loved being in charge early. I could sense that about myself, like I wanted to be the person who helped others get to wherever they were going to. So I sensed that early.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:08 Oh, gosh, that's fascinating. So you went to the Air Force Academy, you came out, you got to go and you got to fly, and you're living your dream. I'd like to jump fast forward a bit, because in your leadership role, obviously, you know, as a pilot, you were doing some amazing things, and we can certainly talk about that. But there was a period of time in which you were a wing commander.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:28 Oh, sure.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:30 And I think you know, being a wing commander already is an amazing feat, but you were a wing commander during a time that I think was unprecedented in our country, COVID.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:40 Yeah, yeah, it was. It was an interesting time. I took the flag for Joint Base Lewis-McChord in early January 2020 and literally a month later, I was dealing with the first cases of COVID in Seattle, in the Seattle area. And so it went from being like, “This is everything I've worked really hard for and I am so excited to lead this amazing organization” to “I have never done anything like this before. No one has, and no one really has a whole lot of advice on what we're going to do next, and we're going to have to figure this out.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22 So can you put it in perspective a little bit, just for us to understand? You know, when you're a wing commander, like, how large is this wing and kind of, what are the responsibilities that you were having to oversee while you're navigating a medical crisis? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 9:34 Yeah, so the wing is about 2,400 airmen. It's a C-17 wing, and so mobility operations never stop, right? Twenty-four hours a day, we're flying airplanes. I also had a clinic at the time, and then an airfield to run. Yeah, so a few things.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:53 Yes, just a couple. Oh, my goodness. OK, so maybe let's, let's talk about what that was like. Because I imagine, as a wing commander, while you do have a network in the way of working with your ,you know, those that are supporting you and all the experts, it still can be, probably be a little bit lonely. How do you navigate that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 10:13 Yeah, well, I think a lot of people say that right, leadership is lonely, and I think it is in the context that at the end of the day, you're the person who has to make those final, tough decisions, no one else can make them for you, right? But the truth is, you have the most amazing a team around you, right? I had, during my time as a wing commander, two of the most amazing seniorenlisted leaders, two chiefs. My group commanders, also colonels, were really, really incredible and experienced. And then the wing commander network is actually pretty powerful too. So you have peers that you've grown up with as squadron commanders who are now in charge of other wings dealing with similar things. And so you lean into that too.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:00 Well, we talk about networks in general mean, I think networks are so powerful, not even just in uniform, but outside of uniform. What was it like really trying to I think, when I think about the airmen that you were, you know, leading, they had their families and their own concerns as well. What was a challenging moment as a leader that you had to navigate, maybe where you weren't popular or did you feel like you actually navigated a space where everyone loved you? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 11:24 No. I mean, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you do have to make some of those really tough decisions. And so for us at McChord, we were in the middle of the biggest movement of nuclear weapons in history, and so an incredibly important no fail mission, right? And so my main focus was, how do I keep, specifically my crews that are trained to carry nuclear weapons, how do I keep them healthy? We don't have a lot of them, so if a couple of them get sick or something happens, then the mission really is at risk. So I really was focused on how to keep them healthy, but I also was just broadly worried about my older civilians who might be more susceptible to either getting COVID or having a real impact from it. I was worried about my airmen who had family members who might be immune compromised. I was worried about airmen who might go home and take it to their parents or grandparents. So it wasn't quite as simple as, “Well, our airmen are young and healthy.” You know, it's a much more challenging problem than that. And so when COVID was really bad, kind of the fall going into Christmas of 2020, one of the things I had to do was decide, am I going to let my airmen travel? The Air Force would eventually take care of that decision for me. But when the airmen are here, can they get together and celebrate the holidays? Are they going to have to spend Thanksgiving alone? You know, what kind of tough decisions am I going to have to make here? And so, yeah, I probably made some pretty unpopular decisions, thinking at the time that I was protecting the mission, and the way I handled it was it kind of goes back to one of those lessons I learned earlier, was transparency. Yes, we started doing things like Facebook Live, we let people ask as many questions as they wanted to or were brave enough to. And tried to do our best to answer them. And we also tried to convey that we know we're not making perfect decisions right now, like we're learning to right now. And just tried to be very human about it.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:42 What an amazing approach, a human approach. And I think what's so great about the way you did that was most people only see the struggle from their lens, yeah. And as a leader, you're having to look at the if I make this decision, what's the second, third and fourth, you know, effect that comes from that decision on a much broader scale. And so I think when you talked about the transparency, that is really powerful.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:04 And it was a great way to get feedback too. You know, I, like some of my young airmen were struggling at the time, but actually it was some of my single officers, even who, you know, didn't quite have that family network around them where they were. And so we realized we had to pay attention to some other groups too, as we tried to think of ways to make sure we were taking care of the individual, but also the mission.    Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:33 My goodness. I mean, I just think about it, the standpoint of the weight that you carried in that space. How did it impact you on the home front, right? So you're leading up a wing, but you also have a family as well. What did that look like that?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:45 It was a challenging time. I had a 2-year-old at home, right? And at certainly, at the beginning of COVID, we didn't know what the impact kids was going to be, and so I was worried that she might be really vulnerable at that time. And my husband, who was also an Academy grad, his parents were living with us at the time, helping with the baby, and his dad had cancer. And so we were incredibly concerned about even me going to work every day, and the possibility of bringing something back to the house was a huge challenge. There was a time where I would enter through the garage and, like, strip down, put new clothes on, or go straight to a shower.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31 Like a hazmat.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:32 Yeah. I mean, it was a really interesting time at the beginning. So many unknowns. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:37 Oh, my goodness. Well, I think most people can understand when I said hazmat, like hazardous materials and clearing yourself from it. But in a way, that's kind of what, how COVID did impact us. Wow. When you were talking in those moments as almost looks like a human and vulnerable leader in that approach, did you share, like, “Look, I understand these things as well, because I, too, have a family.” Did you — were those the ways you were… Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:58 Yes, absolutely. So anytime I got a chance to talk to airmen face to face, I would talk to them about how I'm my focus is certainly accomplishing our mission, but my focus is on their health, their family's health, and this is how I'm thinking about it, right? I'm thinking about my own family and the different dynamics we have going on, and how it might apply to them too. And I love the fact that before that, you would never have seen a wing commander doing something like a Facebook Live. But that just became such an incredible tool for that exact reason. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:33 Yes, so just thinking about the way you handled that, was there someone in your life, a mentor, or someone that you saw kind of display those traits that you emulated, or were they just something that you innately had in you? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 16:44 No, I'm sure I picked up on traits from multiple leaders that I had throughout my career. Col. John Murkowski is probably one of my favorite mentors. He was a DO in my first squadron…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:00 Director of operations.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:02 Thank you; in my first squadron. And later I would work and work for him as a staff officer at Air Mobility Command. And I watched him lead, just with so much humility, very caring leadership style and certainly a good communicator. And you know, somebody like that is somebody you want to emulate in the future. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:25 Absolutely. And if I recall correctly, he's the one I think that might have turned your eye open to this concept of Air Force Weapons School, right? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:33 It's true. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:35 Let's talk about that a little bit. Because so for those listening and watching, you know, I was not an aviator, I was a logistics officer. And so I think even the thought of Weapons School, to me, is very much a pilot and aviation focused opportunity. Can we just talk a little bit about that in general, just so that we all can learn more about Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:54 Yeah, I mean, certainly the history of the weapons school is focused on fighter operations. Right? The fighter pilot employing weapons being a tactical expert leading operations. That's how it started. But I think one of the best things the Air Force ever did was realize that in order to be successful in modern combat, you have to have a force that's integrated. So you need your intel officers to understand and provide information to the entire the entire force. You need space officers who can employ space effects at the right time. You need more than just the person in the flight deck or cockpit who's employing the weapons. So they somewhere in the ’90s, right? We branched out. It started, certainly Intel officers were part of it for a long time, but it branched out into the mobility communities, and then later you would see it branch out into the space communities too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:53 So it was early and not very long before this opportunity was presented to you. Let's talk about that. Because had you, I know you had your site set on being a pilot. Were your site set on Weapons School? Erin Staine-Pyne 19:04 Never, never. No, I think — I felt, at least at that point, I felt really young in my career, still, right? I was an aircraft commander at the time. I wasn't an instructor in my weapons system yet. I wasn't an evaluator in my weapons system yet. And my director of operations came to me and said, “We want you to apply to weapons school.” And I was like, “I'm pretty young for that,   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:30 And it’s very competitive, right?   Erin Staine-Pyne 19:31 It's very competitive. And the weapons officers in my squadron were like, they like, walked on water. Seemed like. They're so knowledgeable. So I hadn't really thought about it mostly in terms of time, like what it didn't seem like the right time for me.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:50 So what made you say yes to apply?   Erin Staine-Pyne 19:53 Yeah, I think, I think it was really two things. One was clearly my leadership believed in me, and that was hugely powerful, right? Somebody comes to you and says, “No, we think you are ready for this.” That was hugely powerful. And then the other thing is, they also said to me, “You would be the first woman to go through the C-130 program. We've never had a female graduate.” And I said, “Well, that's ridiculous.” Like, why is that still a barrier right now? And so I thought, “Well, if not me, then who?” Like, who's going to be the next woman who might be interested in that opportunity? And so I kind of threw a little caution to the wind I feel like, and said, “OK, let's do this.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:43 What is that experience like? Because I know what it's like to apply to apply to the Air Force Academy. You know, you have this, the program you're going through when you're getting, you know, your weapon system up that you're going to get in pilot training. What is it like, this application process for Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 20:57 Yeah, so I remember you have to fill out a bunch of forms.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:00 OK, so that's pretty similar. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:03 Yeah, annotated paperwork. You have to fill out a bunch of forms, but on the forms, you have to talk about your flying experience and all the things you know. You have to have certain boxes checked, if you will. And so I remember filling out the form. They're like, “You have to have 100 hours as an instructor pilot.” And I'm like, “I don't have that, you know, but we'll plan to have accomplished prior to Weapons School starting,” Um, so yeah, I remember filling out the form and just being like, “OK, this kind of confirms I'm not sure I'm ready for this.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35 But obviously yes. So how many people are — maybe the word is accepted — into Weapons School class, and then how many typically graduate? Like, what's the attrition rate? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:45 Yeah, so each platform is different on how many students they take. Typically in a C-130 class, you would have somewhere around eight or nine students and you're probably going to lose perhaps one per class. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:03 OK, the numbers are small to begin with; that's kind of significant.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:04 Significant, yeah. If the class isn't making it through, every once in a while, you'll lose two and that's a challenge. It's a challenge to run the program without enough students, too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15 OK, so how long is that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:16 It's a six-month program, OK, or maybe five and a half months approximately. So it's a pretty big chunk of your flying life to go to training for that long too.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:27 So let's talk about that, because there was probably some growth in yourself as a leader. One feeling like you weren't actually ready, then you were accepted. So then you're clearly ready, but you know, you're navigating it, and almost enough in a first kind of capacity. What was it like from growing as a leader in Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:43 Yeah, it was. It was just the perfect example of how obstacles can be opportunities, you know? And like, I talked to some of my younger airmen now and I tell them, “Don't ever turn down an opportunity, because you never know when that opportunity is going to be the thing that that really propels your career or changes what you're interested in, or leads you down a really interesting path.” And so I walked in the door, and I certainly was a little bit nervous, and perhaps had a chip on my shoulder about being the first woman to go through the program.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:18 Tell me what you mean by that. Chip on your shoulder. Chip on — you're like, “Why hasn't it happened yet?” Or chip on — like, “I have something to prove.”   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 23:24 Yeah, maybe I have something to prove, you know, like that, “I'm good enough to be here.” And what I learned, though, is, as soon as the program started, and I actually met the instructors and the people, you know, my classmates, the people that I'd be going through the program with, is it was completely unnecessary. They wanted nothing more than me to be, you know, wildly successful in the program. And so it just turned out to be such an opportunity and such a great experience.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:56 And I'm going to mention this because I'm sure that you won't, you end up being the top graduate from your Weapons School class. What did that look like through the program? You know? How did you earn that? And was it from different things you demonstrated as a leader? Like, what brought that forth? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 24:14 Yeah, I think, certainly it's especially in the Air Force flying communities, like you have to do the work yourself, right? It's hard work. You have to study. There's a lot of academics, but I think at the end of the day, what's really important is that you understand that the team dynamics. You know you're going through the weapon school with eight or another eight or nine other people. Are you the person who sits down and helps somebody out when you're good at something and they're not? Are you the person who recognizes what the other teammates are really good at and take advantage of that? It's really about learning those individuals and building the team dynamics up that makes you successful in a program like that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:00 Erin, I'm just thinking back on all the things that you've shared with me, just in the way that you are such a team minded person. You know at the Academy, you were the team captain. You know at weapons school, you're, you know, the distinguished graduate. That what they call graduate, yes, and so wing commander. I mean, I think there's this theme. What would you say is probably that most important characteristic that you carry then as a leader?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 25:28 Yeah, it's, I feel like maybe this is a broken record with some other leaders, but I think it's empathy. I really do. I think one of the things I think about back to my Air Force Academy experience, is, you know, I had freshmen I was responsible for as a sophomore, or I had teammates I was responsible for as a team captain, and did I really get to know them? Like I knew them. But did I really get to know them? Could I really walk in their shoes for a little bit and practice empathy for them? And so it took me a long time to learn, like, what a skill it is to be able to see something from somebody else's perspective, and how you can use that when you're leading. But I'd say it now: It's a superpower. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:14 When have you found in your career that that could be really challenging, like the knowing that's such an important fabric in your being a leader but also having to balance the mission right? Can you share a story or anything? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 26:29 Yeah, I really can. So one of the things that was challenging at McChord was our tempo, right? We were really busy, especially in certain mission areas, and so I could see the strain on some of my airmen. And the question is, how far can you push right like, how far can you push before it's too far and they really get unhealthy? And so I found myself — because I certainly feel empathetic towards them, I've been the person on the road all the time — I felt myself wanting to go to my MAJCOM and say, “You guys have to slow down for us, like you have to give us a little bit less mission.” And yet, at the time, they needed us to do more, you know. And so really trying to get into the details about how much workload can we sustain? How can we find different ways to share the workload across the wing that maybe we haven't thought of before? I found myself trying to find alternate ways to balance those two things that were really ahead with each other. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:41 Was that something that you had the opportunity to talk through or work through with someone, or is this something that you really kind of just had to dig in internally and figure out?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 27:52 Yeah, no, it's a perfect example of digging into the team, right? Bringing the team back together. I had a great ops group commander who really understood the challenge. I had a planner who was the person who would really plan out the sortie pace, who really understood the challenge, and had great contacts at Air Mobility Command, like, No, I mean, we would bring a tiger team together to try to figure this out. And my job at that time was to give direction, remove obstacles out of the way, but then really let them at their expert level, dig in and try to come up with some solutions. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:29 That's fantastic. The team effort, everyone just kind of rallying around. So I'm curious on —because of the tempo of the roles you've had to be in and lead and experiences you've had, how has that impacted you? Your ability to be present with your family? How do you navigate that as a leader? Because I think that's something that leaders struggle with, like, how far do I go myself, and where am I willing to, you know, let things kind of go to the back burner. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 28:54 Yeah, I think it's one of the hardest challenges out there, right? People talk about work-life balance. I'm probably of the ilk that I don't really think there's a such a thing, right? I think it's more of a like a sine wave curve, where you pay attention to your career at those really critical times that you need to and then when there's an opportunity to kind of, you know, pull the throttles back, you do it. And if you learn that early in your career, that there are those peaks and valleys, you can build a healthy career over time. So I would find that certainly, anytime you're in a leadership position, right, squadron commander, flight commander, wing commander, those are going to be the times when you're right at the top and right, you've got to find ways to incorporate your family into the job. Yes, what I would tell you, and then the other times you can focus more on what they want to do. But yeah, when I was a commander, I would — my husband was fully involved in the squadron. When I was a wing commander, I had a Pack n’ Play in my office right for my little one, because I wanted to make sure I got plenty of time with her too, and I would find ways to incorporate that too, right?   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:08 And you actually showed that human side in leadership.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:11 Yeah. And I wanted my airmen to see it, to see that, you know, I wasn't all the time Air Force blue. We gotta go, go, go. No, I've got to find ways to make both of those things work Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:25 In all those times when you were leading others, and, you know, working in a partnership with Frank, your husband and your family, when did you find time to take care of you? Like, what did that look like for you? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:36 It was hard, it was hard, but I think what I did was I tried to find the things that gave me the most pleasure and prioritize those. So for me, it was, for example, I'm a soccer player, right? Anytime we were assigned to D.C., I joined my indoor soccer team and played soccer on the weekends, you know, or sometimes it was just curling up and reading a good book that had nothing to do with military. Like, finding some pleasure in the small things I do think we scheduled. Like, I never gave leave back. I think that's really important. That is such an importan — I always took advantage of my leave. And I would plan big things for it too, like, we're gonna go to Hawaii, or we're going to go to Europe, you know, we're going to do things and experience something else. So we have some of those really fun things to look back on. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:33 And when you took that leave, I'm curious, how did you navigate that space? As I'm a leader, am I reachable? Or what does that look like when you're on vacation? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 31:41 Yeah, I think you have to be reachable. Yes. I mean, unfortunately, sometimes there are just things that happen that you have to be reachable. But I think you also try to set an expectation that the person running your squadron or your wing or your, you know, whatever organization it is, that they understand when those moments are like, “You're not calling me for the small things. You're calling me because something big has happened and it requires my attention.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:11 No, that's perfect. So I'm as I'm thinking about your career, what is probably had been the most maybe rewarding, I'll give you an option, either, like, the most rewarding experience you've had as a leader, or maybe the most challenging, because I think, like, those kind of, you know, two ends of the spectrum really kind of forge us as leaders at times. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 32:30 Yeah, well, I'll tell you what the most rewarding is, because it's really fun. It's actually, it actually still happens now is, like, the other day, I got a note from one of one of my he was a staff sergeant when he was in my squadron, and he reaches out to me, he says, he's retiring, and could I come to his retirement? And, “Hey, you were the best squadron commander I ever had in my 20-year career.” You know, something like a piece of feedback like that, like I could sustain on that for a really long time, that that and that you made an impact in somebody's life, right? And they remember maybe some of the leadership traits you exemplified and used them themselves in their career. I just think that's like the full professional, complete loop.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:15 Wow, what a perfect way to take us here. Because one of the things I like to ask all of my guests on Long Blue Leadership is, What is something you are doing every day to be better? I mean, you talked about, you know, how you kind of lean into, you know, those moments and really celebrate them and be reachable, etc. But I'm curious, what are you doing every day? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 33:32 Yeah, I love this question, actually. So it made me reflect, “Am I doing something every day that will actually continue my own self-improvement?” And I think the answer is yes, but to be honest, right now, it's really focused somewhat inward on my family. Yeah. So I'm at that point in my career where I've spent a lot of time giving to the military, to the service, to whatever objective it was, and so today I am trying to be the best mom that I possibly can every single day. So I'll read a blog, a book, I'll talk to other moms, collaborate with her teachers. I'm really focused on trying to make sure I'm fully present as a mother, since I have the opportunity, because I was a little late to motherhood.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:22 Well, I mean, it sounds like a beautiful way to fill your own cup, right? Oh, I love that. Well, the other question we like to ask is, if you could turn back time and talk to your young self, or maybe just if you're thinking about cadets, and those who you know cadet hopeful is coming up and in, in today's day and age, what's something you would tell them to do now in the space they're in so they'll be better set up down the road? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 34:45 Yeah, I would tell them not to self-limit. Like, don't — if you think about something that you want to do in your career, or if you think about an idea that is possible, but maybe you think right now, you know nobody would support it or whatever. Don't self-limit. Like, go after it and be willing to take risks in that career space too. So there's so much that a single airman can do in this service, and there are senior leaders who want airmen who are kind of bold and willing to take risk and really reach their full potential. So yeah, don't self-limit.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:26 What does that look like? Like, what does — I mean the idea of saying to myself, “OK, like, I'm just going to be really open to things.” Or, how do you put that into practice?   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 35:33 I think it means, if you want to apply for a program and you're like, “I'm not sure I'm going to get that.” Apply, right? Apply. If you are worried about going to pilot training and washing out, don't be like — go through it again. The system is designed now to really help you get through those programs and those experiences. So don't just, don't rule anything out in your own mind beforeyou know, let somebody else do the ruling out for you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04 Thank you for, I think, just expanding on that, because, you know, I think we can always look back, we know we're wiser and older now, right? And understand that. But I think actually, you made it so practical, and actually how you really do live that way. Yeah, thank you for that.   Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:17 Yeah, absolutely.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:18 Oh gosh. Erin, I mean, this has been incredible. Has there been anything in your leadership journey that we haven't talked about that you would really love to share? Because I want to make want to make sure we have that time with you. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:27 Yeah, I mean, you really hit some of the highlights, for sure. I just I've been so lucky to be part of so many great teams along the journey, and it's so interesting to see where you learn the biggest leadership lessons from, my opinion, is it hasn't necessarily been from some of those big successes. It's definitely been from the failures along the way. And so I just, I think seeing failure is that opportunity is really important.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:57 We talked about your cadet failure. Was there any other one in your, you know, in your professional career, post-graduation, that you did see? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:04 I mean, I'm sure there were, yeah. I mean, Weapons School itself is a lesson in failing on a you know? One week you're completely failing, the instructors tell you how terrible you're doing, and the next week you're like, crushing it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:19 Sounds like basic training a little bit. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:22 A little bit, right? It's definitely emotional. And so, yeah, I just, I think there are lots of examples of “I know I didn't get it exactly right this time, and I'm just going to build on that for next time.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:36 Oh, gosh. Well, thank you. I one of my favorite things about this time with you, Erin, is how you've navigated your career, but you've done it just even being in this room, like your smile is just effervescent. I have loved being in this room with you. Some of the lessons that I've taken away throughout this entire conversation: being transparent, being human. Just, I've seen it in just the work that we do together here at the Association & Foundation. I'm looking forward to seeing it in, you know, in this role that you're now with, with Merlin Lab, but I know you're going to be successful and the people that will get to work with you will just be thrilled, and will grow from that too. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 38:10 Yeah, thanks, Naviere. I love what you're doing with the Long Blue Leadership podcast, with all the Association events. I really think you're helping to connect future leaders and current leaders, and I just think that's so important for what we're doing today. So thank you for what you're doing too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:29 Thank you. Well, I just taken it from some of the lessons you were talking about. Meet them where they are, right? So that's what we're doing. Well, I want to thank you all for joining us today on Long Blue Leadership. You know, Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of ’98 — she trained me, so you know I'm going to be good — But you know, the lessons permeate no matter where you are in your leadership career. Be human, be transparent, be present and then remember that your career, I think how you said it kind of on these waves. And so, you know, do what you need to do in the moment. You need to do them. And I think as long as you take care of yourself and take care of your people, you're going to be successful. So thank you again for joining us. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 39:05 Thank you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 And thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership. Until next time, I’m Naviere Walkewicz.   KEYWORDS Air Force leadership, military leadership lessons, leadership failure, overcoming failure, accountability in leadership, transparency in leadership, empathy in leadership, leading through crisis, leadership during pandemic, mission versus people balance, building strong teams, mentoring airmen, women military leaders, professional development, resilience in leadership.     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Resilience Through Crises - Mark Michalek ’99

Sometimes leadership is modeled in small ways — like leaving work at 4 p.m. and meaning it. Not because the job’s done — but because you’re showing your team that life outside of work matters too. SUMMARY In this Long Blue Leadership podcast, Mark Michalek ’99, human capital director for the FBI, shares leadership tips for more resilient teams.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/resilience-through-crises-mark-michalek-99/?token=368cde016074cf013e463efc9e427d8a]  |  FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/resilience-through-crises-mark-michalek-99/?token=368cde016074cf013e463efc9e427d8a]   MARK'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Transforming trauma into purpose Turning childhood loss and adversity into a lifelong calling in public safety, service and leadership 2. Post-traumatic growth vs. post-traumatic stress Reframing exposure to trauma as a potential catalyst for growth, resilience and deeper empathy in leaders 3. Whole-person leadership Leading people as complete humans — on duty, off duty, past and present — rather than just as job roles 4. Mental fitness as performance, not weakness Positioning counseling, wellness and psychological support as tools to optimize performance, not signs of failure 5. Modeling the behavior you want to see Leaders leaving at 4 p.m. for family, openly seeing counselors and visibly prioritizing health to give others “permission” to do the same 6. Leading in high-consequence environments Staying the “steady hand to land the plane” during crises like mass casualty events, while empowering experts on the ground 7. From doing the work to leading the work Shifting from frontline case work (violent crime agent) to enterprise-level leadership that shapes culture and systems 8. The power of networks and extended family in uniform Leveraging the Long Blue Line and law enforcement community as a lifelong support, mentorship and resilience network 9. Discipline, recovery and sustainable performance Rest, running and intentional unplugging as essential leadership disciplines — not optional extras 10. Long-view leadership and legacy Seeing careers (military, FBI) as chapters, focusing on integrity, service and excellence, and building organizations your kids would proudly join   CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction 00:00:30 – Early Life and Father’s Suicide 00:02:00 – Finding an Extended Family in Law Enforcement 00:03:00 – Civil Air Patrol, Flying and the Path to USAFA 00:04:15 – Cadet Years, Setbacks and First Responder Leadership 00:07:25 – Choosing Security Forces and First Leadership in Nuclear Convoys 00:09:45 – From Military to FBI: Mental Fitness and Post-Traumatic Growth 00:15:15 – Balancing Family, Leadership Loneliness and Modeling Self-Care 00:19:15 – Leading Through Crisis: Inside the Boulder Attack Response 00:27:30 – Lessons, Legacy and Advice for Future Leaders   ABOUT MARK BIO Mark Michalek is a senior leader in the Federal Bureau of Investigation, currently serving as human capital director, a role to which he was appointed by Pam Bondi, former U.S. attorney general. In this capacity, Michalek leads enterprise policy and strategy for human resources, security, internal affairs, compliance and training across the Bureau’s 38,000-person global workforce. A 1999 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, Michalek previously served as special agent in charge of the FBI’s Denver field office, where he oversaw operations throughout Colorado and Wyoming. He is the highest-ranking FBI special agent who is also a military veteran.   CONNECT WITH MARK LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmichalek99/]   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://usafa.org/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Mark Machalek ’99  |  Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:11 Well, Mark, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is truly an honor, as your classmate, Class of ’99. We go back, gosh, 30 years.   Mark Michalek  0:18 It is so exciting to see you again and to be here at USAFA; to have this conversation is just priceless. So thank you.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:27 Who knew we'd be doing this this many years?   Mark Michalek  00:28 That's right.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:31 Many may not know you've been in security forces as an active-duty officer, you went into the FBI, and you've really been in this public safety kind of realm. But we're going to dive in with, I think, a moment in time that really shaped you, and just in something I learned about you just recently. So you're 5 years old, and you shared with me that your dad actually, he took his life — death by suicide, right? And it shaped you in a way, when you're thinking about your role in public safety. Do you mind kind of sharing that with us?   Mark Michalek  01:00 When I was 5 years old, my dad died by suicide, and I was an only child, and he was my absolute hero. He was a local police officer, so my earliest memories of childhood were wearing his uniform and seeing the squad car and being around officers. And I think that really solidified my future in public safety.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  01:26 Your hero, something that you were exposed to. Tell me, as a 5-year-old, what did that start to look like? Where did you see that show up in, you know, in school, in your sports, like, just in the way you lived? How did, how did you navigate that?   Mark Michalek  01:40 So quickly I had an extended family. As I went to the playground and were around town, squad cars would show up,and police officers would come by and, you know, give me a pop or come in and check with me and see how I was doing and see how my mom was doing. And that really laid a foundation for me of a sense of an extended family of the police department being more than just a job in the balance of that. That sense of camaraderie and togetherness with the mission, I think, really shaped my childhood. I became very, very active. And I don't know if that was by design or divine intervention, or what, but it was kind of, you know, the object in motion stays in motion. I was on the run, literally on the run. Loved to run long distance. I quickly got into Civil Air Patrol as soon as I was old enough to do so, and got exposed to the Air Force that way. I got my private pilot's license at 17, I soloed before I got my driver's license and was destined to come to the Academy.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  02:48 Wow. I mean, you were accomplishing so much so quickly. Were you always like that was, did you see others in your life like that? Was your dad that way?   Mark Michalek  02:59 It's interesting in retrospect, to see if that was inherited or that was kind of a response to the trauma. I kind of think it was a response. I'm the only person in my family to have moved outside of Flint, Michigan. So folks were very stable and stayed where they were, but I was just constantly moving. You know. As we're talking, I remember I was the youngest Red Cross CPR instructor for the county at 15. I formed a K-9 search-and-rescue unit for police departments to train dogs to help find missing people. And I guess that was just a response to what had happened, and it really planted a seed in me that life is short, and I've had this drive to just leave it all on the field, to keep moving forward, to do more and more, to be able to, you know, focus on public safety and to protect people.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  03:54 So you showed up at USAFA. You knew — you went to Civil Air Patrol and USAFA was in your sights. I remember you as a cadet, and you're always a go-getter as well. Let's talk about a little bit your cadet years, and maybe some of where you saw that evolution of yourself as a leader, but also maybe how it showed up through, you know, go-getting and continually pushing that.   Mark Michalek  04:16 My first setback was I wasn't initially accepted. I got a Falcon Foundation scholarship. And it was really a fork-in-the-road decision — “Do you kind of take a year off and go this route and reapply, or do you go another route?” I ended up going, obviously the Falcon Foundation route. Went to Marion Military Institute, and I'm so glad I did, because it set me up to be a cadet and to be in the same class as you. You know, that cadet experience is just such a sensory overload. I wasn't an athlete. I joke that my athletics were just kind of graduating, like I just needed to focus on academics and surviving the day. But then I started to see some kind of opportunities to give back. And I kind of see these themes throughout my life. Myself and two of our classmates formed the cadet first responder team back in ’97, I think. And that was really just, again, interest in public safety and a recognition that we needed some more kind of support for cadet-related activities. You know, 24/7 we've got the fire department and EMS here, but to understand the cadet experience and to be able to help out. So my sponsor was a paramedic in Colorado Springs, and a lot of ride time with him.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  05:37 That kind of worked out really well.   Mark Michalek  05:39 Again, divine intervention. And so we formed this team. We got our EMT certification on nights, and we're able to help out, and, you know, provide practical experience. If you remember that Class of 2001 was absolutely decimated during Recognition. Remember, we had to have a timeout. There was — we had to have a time to say, “Look, like, we got to, you know, we got to rein this in,” and so we were able to provide a lot of support there. But as I progressed in the Academy, you know, public safety, protecting people, continued to resonate with me, and was one of the reasons I chose behavioral science as a as a track, partly…   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:19 Not because you didn't love math?   Mark Michalek  06:21 Partly because I probably wouldn't have graduated.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:24 I was right here — social sciences too.   Mark Michalek  06:28 Yeah, you know, you got to go where you're strong, right? But I knew that regardless, we'd be working with people. And then to tie it back to my dad to understand why somebody with a family would take their own life was still something that I was struggling with, and so that really led me to a psychology track. But this drumbeat of public safety really continued to resonate with me, and it's really the main reason that I chose security forces as a career field. I mean, I was medically qualified to fly. Already had a private pilot's license.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:59 Right. That was actually what I was gonna ask you, because you had that.   Mark Michalek  07:03 Partly because although I have my license, I get horrifically air sick, which is a weird dynamic.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  07:11 And yet you kept pushing yourself. Amazing.   Mark Michalek  07:12 Yeah. So if I'm flying, I don't get sick, but if I'm a passenger, then I get sick. So I didn't want that as a career choice for me, but I wanted to lead people where they were. I wanted to lead on the ground in the public safety space, and so that's why I chose security forces.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  07:28 So let's talk about that a little bit. You know, as a security forces officer, you saw many things. I'm certain of it. But was there a moment when you actually had a leadership kind of moment for yourself that you grew — different from when you're a cadet — but in the moment leading some security forces, men and women, was there a moment that you grew that way?   Mark Michalek  07:49 Yeah, I think right out of the gate, because as soon as you're a second lieutenant in security forces, you are leading airmen. So my first assignment was at F.E. Warren as a nuclear weapon convoy commander — a team of 40 airmen. So there's no diffusion responsibility, there's nowhere to hide. Like, you are it. And that was the first practical application of leadership for me. Theoretically, and you know, within the Cadet Wing, you're kind of in this microcosm to test some things out and develop who you're going to be as a leader. But once you hit the ground, like, that is it. And to be able to motivate, inspire a team of people in a mission to protect nuclear weapons when there hasn't been a direct attack in our history is difficult, but now I look back as a 23-year-old lieutenant running a nuclear weapon convoy with the world's most important weapon on the open highways is an incredible responsibility. But that's really, I think, where the rubber meets the road, where you start to see what leadership looks like for you. It's not the same for everybody, right? You take bits and pieces of people and in theories and apply really what the moment requires. And in security forces, you really start to see the value of the senior noncommissioned officers, and although you have the authority, they have the reputation and the ability to deliver and so it's more art than science. And so I learned that very quick, right out of the gate.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  09:12 That makes a lot of sense. And something that you said, I think, is really important. You know that that human piece of it, when I think about the pace in which security forces and a lot of our law enforcement roles live in. My question for you might be, how did you help those handle kind of challenging moments or stress, right? You kind of go towards, “Give me more,” take on more, stay busy. Not everyone is wired the same. So did you have airmen that struggled in how they dealt with, you know, things, trauma, etc., and how did you coach or lead them through that?   Mark Michalek  09:45 Back then, there really wasn't a lot of support. There really wasn't a recognition. There was still a stigma, both in the military and law enforcement, of “I can't disclose that I'm having a problem. You're going to take my secure clearance, you know, you're going to take my weapon, I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to be embarrassed.” And so at that time, there really wasn't a safety net or an openness to discuss it, so you kind of just dealt with it. So it was more of telegraphing as a leader of what your values were, in hopes that people would kind of, you know, reach out if they needed help. In my time in the FBI, I was able to influence decisions and policies, to be able to be more accommodating, to kind of focus on the whole person and look at our individual followers as a function of performance, as opposed to, you know, you're my responsibility when you're in uniform from 9 to 5 and then you're off duty. You know, life is not my concern as a leader.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  10:47 You know there are times when you're leading folks and you might have the authority to do some things. Did you start to implement some of those programs or support resources, etc., as an agent, or when you were at a higher-level authority?   Mark Michalek  11:00 In FBI, it was at a higher level. So, you know, one of the reasons I left the Air Force after six years, it was a tough decision. And it wasn't running away from something, it was running towards something. And I recognized, you know, when we were company-grade officers, the trajectory is kind of baked in. You will continue to promote, but you will lead people. I wanted to do the work. I didn't want to just lead the people doing the work. I wanted to do the work for myself, and that was one of the reasons I joined the FBI. But going through as a case agent for 13 years on a violent crime squad and being exposed to some of the different things that my dad was exposed to, that others were exposed to, it really laid a foundation as I pursued leadership to be able to have greater influence as I moved up the organization, to set that culture towards mental fitness and resilience and really as a function of optimizing performance.   Naviere Walkewicz  11:55 Can you talk about that a little bit more? Tell me what you mean by mental fitness and resilience.   Mark Michalek  12:00 So, you know, law enforcement and military both, over the past 20 years, have made significant progress in kind of chipping away at that stigma. We're not where we need to be yet, but we're making really, really good progress. I equate our work to that of an Olympic athlete. It's not just running the race. Olympic athletes are obsessed with their craft, whether it is nutrition, sleep, mental imagery, you know, different types of runs to test different types of muscles and stamina and endurance, but they look at the whole person. So too should we in law enforcement and in the military. So as I got into leadership positions, you kind of block and tackle for your people and let them run, and you set the trajectory of your unit, your squad, your team, your division, your organization, on how they move forward. And so I really push that whole-person concept, that you are a whole person, not just your 9-to-5, but your off duty, your on duty, your past, your present, and all of that needs to be optimized for you to perform the mission. I was very fortunate at our entry level senior executive service position to be at our headquarters and be responsible for — it's called our employee health and performance section, but the clinical staff at the FBI, the psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, nurses, social workers, to be able to drive that culture and to move from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth. And I needed to experience that as an agent. I needed to be on mass casualty scenes. I needed to be engaged with victims of crime to understand what that looked like, what that felt like, to project what my dad had experienced, but to recognize as humans, we are not wired to see what we are requiring our people to see and do time and time again, and we just require them to go out, to go out, to go out — instead, to provide mental health counseling, which in the FBI, we do, not only for the employee, but for their spouse, which I think is very important, and kids, for that matter, to be able to recognize that, yeah, like, you're not super human. It's OK to not be OK. You're not going to lose your clearance and your gun. People that lose their clearance do so because they compensate in maladaptive ways, whether that's drugs or alcohol or anything like that. And so that's been rewarding to drive that culture, to push the creation of employee assistance, counselors, these are mental health practitioners, chaplains, peers, just to be able to let that culture permeate, and to be able to demonstrate from the top, I'm very open about my dad and how that has shaped my life, to be able to telegraph that, you know, post-traumatic growth is possible, and there are a variety of resources out there now. And there's science and research, and there's just a recognition that the way that we are wired, you can't just keep going 100 miles an hour. You've got to go back to being that Olympic athlete and have a rest in a work and schedule and to be able to push yourself and to relax and just think holistically.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  15:16 The term itself post-traumatic growth is one that I'm not familiar with. But when you explain it that way, it's very clear. And my question to you might be, how have you for yourself, personally — you know, you're a husband, you're a father, you know, you have seen things, and then you go home and while you do have counseling for family members and for yourselves as well, what does that look like, this post-traumatic growth, when you go home personally.   Mark Michalek  15:45 You know, it's really tough to practice what you preach. We're really good about setting a vision for an organization as leaders and taking care of other people, but not taking care of ourselves. And what really flipped the switch for me was reframing the perspective on telegraphing for others to create the permission structure that it's OK, and when they see you do that, then they know it's OK. So for example, in FBI culture, same for the military, like if the boss is in the office, you’ve got to stay there, or you’ve got to be there till 5 o'clock. That's fine if you have work to do, but what sense does it make to sit there just because you know your boss is there? So one of the things that I did as I approached senior leadership was I left every day at 4 o'clock, and I made sure they saw me leave. And it's not — I'm going out to go play golf or whatever, but I am going back to be with my family. And in all the assignments I've had — I've moved several times in the FBI — I've made it a point to be home for dinner, and that is the stability for the family, for my girls, for me, and we'll have our dinner and put the kids to bed, and I'll get back and do more work, but being able to telegraph that, you know — I was the special agent in charge of our Denver field office — and as you move into the senior ranks, it's an incredibly lonely job. When you are at the top, there's no way you can talk to you can't gripe to people below you, you know, you've got to have a strong peer network, and you've got to put on the oxygen mask first to be able to help others, and that takes consistent kind of messaging. It takes some consistent actions to be able to show we're putting our money where our mouth is, and then engaging with employee assistance counselors. I talked regularly with ours, and I wanted people to see that, yeah, it's confidential, and there's no shame in that. You would have no problem putting on your squad calendar that you're going to a dentist appointment at 10 o'clock tomorrow. We want to get to a point where that's all “I'm going to go talk to the counselor.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:49 Have you seen the benefits of that, since the agency has made some of these changes?   Mark Michalek  17:55 I have, you know, over the past 20 years, the scale, speed and scope of critical incidents is just unimaginable. It's now commonplace for mass shootings. You know, when we were here at the Air Force Academy — Columbine —   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:49 I was just thinking that when you brought that up.   Mark Michalek  17:55   And now it's almost every single week. The FBI is very similar to the military in that we are mission focused. You know, our job is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution and the threat spectrum has exponentially changed. We have to deliver again. There is nowhere to hide. There's no diffusion of responsibility. When I was the special agent in charge for the Denver field office, we were the FBI for Colorado and Wyoming, and whatever happened, we had to deliver. And so we're not afforded the luxury to not respond. And it takes principled decision making in the development of culture to practice and plan and prepare and create that permission structure, because you know what's going to happen, and when it happens, it hits hard, and we've got to deliver. We have to be mission focused and get the job done, but we have to take care of ourselves on the back end, and that takes purposeful decision making by leaders to carve out that time and say, “Nope, we're going to take a timeout.”   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  19:19 Well, let's talk a little bit about that actual example, but let's talk about the Boulder attack. And you know, what was your role and approach as the leader, you know, in that lonely role as a leader, but to really kind of navigate that. Can you talk about that with us?   Mark Michalek  19:37 Unfortunately, the Denver Field Office has had their fair share of critical instances to respond to. So we've got our reps in over the course of time, but that performance just doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of work in policy development, in exercises, in pressure testing assumptions to be able to deliver when the moment requires it. The Boulder attack happened on June 1, on a Sunday. And so many things happen at one time. You know, our society has changed where, you know, it's a 24/7, news cycle, and things are happening in real time. You no longer have the built-in delays, because you've got to get to a phone to make a call, and so this is happening, unfolding in front of you in real time, and there's so many things you're responsible for as the leader. I think when it comes to times of crisis, people want stability. They want reassurances. They want a steady hand to land the plane. And that's what my focus was on, that although I have the same emotions, anxiety, stress that is happening, we need to be the steady hand to land the plane. We focused the culture in Denver on direct community impact and supporting partners. I think there's a misperception with the FBI that we have to be the lead. And you know, when the feds come in, they take it over, and, you know, here we go. But that's not the case. We can prop up local law enforcement and to provide the forensic, technical, analytic, tactical, behavioral expertise that they may not have or may be overwhelmed due to the size of the incident. And thankfully, we have a strong relationship with the Boulder Police Department. And so the chief called me personally as he was, I could hear the siren in the background as he was rolling to the scene. So we have plans in place, just like the military when there's a crisis and you send that flare up, and you execute the crisis-management plan, and you work in real time. Everything's moving at 100 miles an hour. Being the leader in that situation, you are getting torn in multiple directions. So you have your employees responding to the scene. You have local law enforcement. You have elected leaders here in Colorado, they want to know what's happening. You have elected leaders in D.C. that want to know what's happening to the point where my phone broke. So many phone calls at once, like, it was fried. And so again, like focusing on — I've got to be the steady drumbeat. I've got to be measured here, to telegraph that we've got this, but also a trust and confidence that your people do have it and to get out of the way. They're the experts. I'll block and tackle for them and let them run, and I telegraphed that in our culture, and let them run, and they did phenomenal. And I focused on what my responsibility was on, was not on being at the scene and seeing what's going on in that, it was engaging with executive leaders to be able to understand what we have, what resources we need, and to be able to deliver now at that time. Given the context of what was happening overseas, we knew this would be an international — of international interest immediately, so it could either go very well and controlled, or it could be absolutely horrible. And so that's another layer of pressure. And when you go back to the fundamentals at the Air Force Academy, of when it matters most, that you buckle your chinstrap on the helmet, and you just get to it, and you immediately go into that mode and distance your emotions and thoughts and anxieties, and put those to the side and focus on the mission at hand. And we knew when we were giving statements in the press that it would be carried internationally, so a different layer of stress as a leader. You know, we had simultaneous operations. We had the scene — the subject had a makeshift flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails. There was about 15 victims at the time that were transported. Luckily, he was arrested by a Boulder police officer on the scene. But we also had activity in Colorado Springs, where his house was. So generate search warrants and everything for that, and then a mobile command post to assist Boulder PD. But nowadays, you know, we're running leads all over the world, because what we don't know at the macro level is, is this a distraction? Is there another attack happening? Is this part of a pattern that we've got to figure out in very short order?   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  24:20 I'm curious, because I remember the reason why you left active duty, or you transitioned from active duty to the FBI, because you wanted to be in the things doing, the things you find yourself now in, positions where you're leading. How have you grown as a leader yourself? What have you learned about yourself in this? Not being able to be the one doing, but like you said, blocking and tackling? Like, how have you grown yourself?   Mark Michalek  24:42 So I was a violent crime agent when I first graduated from Quantico, and I did that for about 12 years, and it was all about impact for me. So I worked bank robbery and armored car robbery scenes. And I remember this. I remember these scenes as we're talking, but I — you go to a chaotic scene like that, with yellow tape and local law enforcement there, and people crying and physical evidence and blood on the ground, and people are looking for somebody to take control. And I remember walking out of my car with that gun and badge on my hip, and you could feel it. “Here comes the FBI.” OK, they've got this and to be able to turn order into chaos, or chaos into order, and create, you know, develop evidence, make a case, prosecute it, provide that sense of closure for victims. That was the juice for me, in that direct community impact. But then I started to feel the calling of leadership from the military, and I started to see that as you move up the ranks, you're able to make more and more impact with a greater group of people. And that became the juice for me. And so in the FBI, it's not as linear as the military, where you, you know, you just move up here, you can kind of go up and down or sideways. But that really motivated me to be able to give back that public safety kind of motivation in larger and larger groups of people. And often when it comes to leadership, whether you're in the military or the FBI, there's kind of this imposter syndrome of like, “Do I really have this?” But you look back and say, “Look at all the things I've been doing, look at all the experiences I've had, all the different places I've led all over the world, and it's turned out just fine. I've got this.” And to move up and up the ranks and to make decisions and lead larger and larger groups of people and learn from those decisions — that was my spark. And then at that point, I just continued down the pipeline. I'm at a point now where I'm operating and leading at the enterprise level, which is impactful, stressful, humbling and rewarding, but that special agent in charge position, that was the ideal position, because you're directly connected with the people. We've got about 500 employees between the two states, and are ingrained in the community to be able just to help more and more people.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  27:09 So you're driven a bit by adrenaline. We've talked about this. I'm curious what's next? I mean, you're at the enterprise level. Do you stay here? How do you continue to fill your sense of impact that your leading or making a difference for when you've kind of continued to really, you know, rise in that way?   Mark Michalek  27:29 At the enterprise level, it's a different perspective of leadership — you're obviously leading through several layers of leaders. So you know what you know with the company grade or the supervisory special agent level, you kind of keep the train on the tracks and keep the trains running on time. The enterprise perspective, then you're laying down enough track for that train to keep moving forward. And so it takes a little bit of a shift. I'm enjoying my time right now. It's really impactful to see the subtle things. Change culture, people reaching out when they need help, direct community impact. Where you weren't directly involved in that, but you laid a foundation for that to grow. You know, that said, like, there's only one FBI director, so there's really no other opportunities. It's just continuing to give back at this level, but whether it's military or FBI, it's, you know, the similarities are leading in high-consequence environments where the stakes are high and the margin for error is small, and I think there's opportunities for that to continue to lead in those environments outside of government as well.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:50 So I think about some of the things you shared about, you know, why you've made certain decisions and leading through different levels. I'm curious about how leadership has shown up in your house as a dad and as a husband, thinking about what you experience with your dad, how do you navigate that in your home life?   Mark Michalek  29:09 You know, it's interesting as you grow older and you gain experience and maturity and in a world view, and you really start to see the forest through the trees, and leadership manifests in different ways, but as you get married and have kids, then you start to appreciate what your employees are experiencing, stresses and joys as well. It forces you to be disciplined and to focus on what your priorities are. And it's tough when you're in a high-consequence environment to say, “Yep, families first — can't do that.” Well, there's a mass shooting, like, you're going to have to go. So there has to be a little bit of flexibility. But all things equal, focusing on the family is really the sunlight, you know that helps us grow, and it shifts your mind towards giving back. Like, in preparing the future generations, which just happened in the blink of an eye for us— as I'm driving in, we go past the buff where we were commissioned. I'm like, my god, 27 years have passed. So now the focus shifts on providing for the family and thinking, “What kind of world do I want my girls to live in?” And it equates to the FBI, because I want the FBI to be an organization that agents and analysts and professional support staff folks not only serve for 20 years, but that my daughters want to join, and they want to do 20 years. So a pendulum shift more towards not just delivering results for today, but continuing to grow on what the future looks like.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  30:43 Pulling that a little bit further, what do you hope that your girls see in you as a leader? You know, the way that your dad was your hero and you looked up to him? What do you what are you hoping your girls see in you the traits?   Mark Michalek  30:56 You know, it's funny. They're 9 now, so I think they could care less.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:01 Maybe what they don't want to see you doing.   Mark Michalek  31:02 I'm just kidding. But, you know, in the future, I want them to be able to see the value of integrity, of service and of excellence, in this recognition that life is so precious and short, and I want them to leave it all on the field. And you know when their day comes to be able to say, “You know what I did, I lived a full life. I was supported, loved…” You know, whatever it is they want to get into, it doesn't have to be law enforcement or anything like — I just want them to excel and enjoy themselves, but just recognize how phenomenal life is and how short it is, and you just got to find your spark and just go for it.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:50 That's amazing. And I think about your comment earlier about we're really good at helping others know what they should be doing, but maybe not the best at taking our own advice. How are you doing that and taking care of yourself today?   Mark Michalek  32:01 So for me, it's running. Everybody's got something that they need to unplug, decompress from my time, from high school through the Academy, military and now it's running. It gets a little slower as we get older.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:17 Note to self, do not plan to go running with Mark. Got it.   Mark Michalek  32:21 But it just — everybody needs time to unplug and take off all the masks. FBI agent, Air Force member, husband, parent, friend. You just need to take the mask off and you just need to breathe. And that's what does it for me, being outside and breathing. And one of my assignments was in our San Diego field office, which was spectacular. But being in water was another area that I really found energized me and, you know, and made me whole. But, yeah, running is what does it now. And I make it a point that no matter how busy I am, I've got to run at least once a week.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  33:05 OK, what's your distance that you're running to give yourself this time to unplug in?   Mark Michalek  33:09 Now, not fast. Now, this isn't a sprint; it's more of a marathon, but I haven't done any marathons. That's a little too much for me. I'm in the in the 5- to 8-mile range. That seems to be the sweet spot. And then here in Colorado, it's being out in nature, but in D.C., to be able to run the monuments every single time — and I've done it hundreds of times — but every time you go past those monuments, and you put your hand on the Washington Monument, or you go up to the Lincoln Memorial, and you stand where Dr. Martin Luther King stood and you see that perspective, I just get this sense of history and appreciate the decisions that were made and the consequential events that happened over time in the stability of institutions, in that you know leaders way above us stood the test of time, were resilient and were able to navigate unthinkable challenges, then so too should we, and I find a sense of, I guess, comfort or shared experience, although that's a whole different level for those level of leaders, but that really helps fuel me.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  34:17 I can actually see that. Just picture you doing that. You know, I want to ask you, what is something you're doing every day to be better at “fill in the blank,” your leadership, your craft? What's something you're doing every day?   Mark Michalek  34:32 I think it's being disciplined and focused, definitely running and being physical, but balancing the time with family and friends in work, it sometimes — it comes across as selfish. I think particularly people who are service oriented consider that selfish. But again, like they say, when you're on the plane, you've got to put on your oxygen mask first before you can help others. So that's not selfish. You're telegraphing to others to take care of themselves. When I run, I listen to presidential biographies.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  35:05 Really, I was going to ask you, what's in your ear? Now — I'm just kidding.   Mark Michalek  35:09 I don't know if it's the cadence of the — but again, to understand decisions from the past, and when you know our country was at pivotal points, how we responded, that helps fulfill me. I think, you know, becoming a student of leadership, from being a cadet to now, and finding different ways and understanding whether it's private sector, other public sector entities, how they navigate things, because it's very, very similar when it comes to, you know, motivating people, managing programs, delivering results, you know, grappling with emerging tech, new different types of threats. So I do a lot of reading in that space, to be able to be a more kind of holistic leader and not have on horse blinders, just specific to government.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:00 Has there been one lately that's really stuck with you, or that you've listened to while you're running, or that you read that has continued to evolve the way you're thinking — you approach leadership?   Mark Michalek  36:11 I think it's — John Dickerson has a book called The Hardest Job in the World, and it's about the presidency, and it's not one individual president, it across party lines and in decades. But it's more of those themes that when you think back, they didn't have the technology we did. But like these fundamental themes are the same of, how do you motivate people? How do you respond to the operating environment? How do you handle complex challenges? Again, like I just felt a sense of reassurance or support and understanding on things, you know, through the course of time that we may not have all the answers, but collectively, people are the potential energy of the organizations, and they're going to deliver. They're going to hit it out of the park. You just have to support them.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:58 Well, we have viewers and listeners that kind of span from, you know, young cadet hopefuls, cadets, you know, graduates and family members. What's something that, if you could tell yourself years ago, maybe as a cadet, that you should say you should be thinking about this now, because in 27 years from now, it's gonna matter? What would you share?   Mark Michalek  37:18 You know, I think, first of all, I wish I would have had more fun.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  37:25 I think I've seen you smile more now.   Mark Michalek  37:28 I mean, it's just such a pressure cooker, and you don't want to let anybody down, and you don't know what the future holds. And, you know, “I've got to do this, I gotta do that. I gotta…” It's just breathe a little bit and enjoy it. Like, you don't recognize you're really in a pivotal point in your life. So that, I think that's one thing. I think the other for cadets and prospective cadets to recognize is, like, the FBI, like, the military is temporary. You're going to retire, probably young. You know, you do 20 years in the way our systems are set up, in the way the world is now. Rarely are you just going to go fishing at age 40 or 50. You know, you may have a second act, you may have a third act, and so you've got to really have the long view in mind, and it's OK not to have all the answers. You know, life will throw you some curve balls here and there. You've got to do what fulfills you at the time and doors will open. But you just got to have that faith that things are going to work out.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  38:35 Did you have that, you think, back then, or you, just looking back on it now, recognize that?   Mark Michalek  38:41 I don't know. I think partially I had it then. Those Academy years are really, really tough. And like, we were chatting before, like, well, you know, once you leave, that was it. I had no intention of coming back. And it's kind of like a boomerang. Distance and time makes the heart grow fonder, and then you recognize, you know, what you've learned here and how special this place was. And I think back, I think staying busy and active is what got me through. There's nothing worse than that first holiday break in December, right when you go back to your friends and they're at local schools, and you see all the stuff they're doing, and then you’ve got to come back. I mean, that is such a — the comeback piece. Do you have the, you know, intestinal fortitude to come back? You know, that was really, really tough, but now I see that the Academy, you know, left an indelible mark on me and changed the trajectory of my life. And I think back, you know, like I said, I'm the only person in my family to have ever left Michigan, and what life would have been, you know… You think the Earth is flat until get out and see there's a whole big world out there and a ton of opportunities. And as I've gotten in this role, particularly as a special agent in charge in Denver, I interact more with military leaders here in Colorado and Wyoming, and start to reconnect with people and see that this Long Blue Line, it spans everything. We are everywhere across the world. But you have no idea what good stuff lies ahead if you just stay the course, and your life will be changed in fundamentally spectacular ways.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  40:29 You couldn't end it better than that. I guess I want to just ask you this final question. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you would like to make sure you make mention of?   Mark Michalek  40:34 No, but let me give one piece of advice for future cadets and cadets. And this — I think I read this in a book before I came but this is what helped me survive. Go to bed every night at 10 o'clock. You know, there's folks that try to do the all-nighters. I didn't. Every night, I went to bed at 10 o'clock and dealt with the consequences on the back end. And I think that ability to recharge and rest served me well.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:00 Do you still go to bed at 10 o'clock now?   Mark Michalek  41:02 I try. Now it's more like 9 or 8:30 as I've gotten older, but I think you've got to recharge and sleep. And that's one of the things the Academy teaches you, is you are not going to get everything done. You're not going to muscle your way through this. You can try. You're going to end up tired. But this is a team sport. Life is a team sport. You've got to do the best you can and get up and do it again the next day. But you are not you're just not going to get it all done. So you got to take care of yourself.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:30 Well, that really does kind of bring it home. Does that this time that you've been kind of experiencing in your life through the active-duty service, through the FBI, you know, you said it yourself, you kind of look back at, you know, maybe why your dad made some decisions. Do you feel like you've gotten to a point where you've had closure now?   Mark Michalek  41:49 Yes and no. I think I've gotten to a point where I've got all the answers I can but I'm at peace with what had happened. And I just, I try to, you know, leverage the time I have with my wife and girls to be present and to be a good role model and just to be able to support them and help them thrive.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:12 Well, I think you've been an incredible role model. You've been an incredible friend through all these years. This conversation has been one that's been really rooted and just understanding who you are, where you're at, and then how to navigate from that place. And I think that's why you've been one of the reasons why you've been just so successful, and why you're able to lead so many people through so many different crises. So I thank you for being on Long Blue Leadership. This has been a true treat for me, but again, I know that all of our listeners and our viewers have enjoyed this as well.   Mark Michalek  42:39 Oh, thank you, Naviere, I really appreciate the opportunity.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:43 As I think back on our conversation today, you know, there are several things that stand out. I think one thread that we really need to think about is taking care of ourselves and others, knowing where we're at, thinking about mental resilience and really post traumatic growth, being able to move forward and seek help when you need it. I think part of our conversation today as leaders is not everything is easy, and certainly you have a network that supports you, and so one of the ways that my classmate Mark has really highlighted to me is lean into your network, you know, utilize the resources that are there for you, and then you can not only help yourself, but you can help others as well. So it's been an incredible conversation, one that I look forward to listening to again and sharing with others as well.   KEYWORDS Public safety leadership, law enforcement leadership, military leadership, FBI leadership, crisis leadership, trauma-informed leadership, mental resilience, post-traumatic growth, whole-person leadership, high-consequence environments, leading under pressure, servant leadership, organizational culture change, resilience culture, mental fitness for first responders, leader self-care, work-life balance for leaders, empowering frontline teams, interagency collaboration, leadership in crisis response.     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Leading Through Transition - Jessica Whitney ’10

A simple but powerful leadership lesson: show up — whether in loss, transition or everyday life. SUMMARY Jessica Whitney ’10 reminds us that we often know what to do — the difference is actually doing it. Small acts of showing up can mean everything.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/leading-through-transition-jessica-whitney-10/?token=429f1abbc4ff11c156ed4c8abbb432fd]  |  FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/leading-through-transition-jessica-whitney-10/?token=429f1abbc4ff11c156ed4c8abbb432fd]   JESSICA'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP LESSONS Here are 10 leadership lessons from this conversation: 1. Align your life with your values, not your plan * Whitney thought she’d do 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, but family and faith became higher priorities than her original career plan. * Leadership lesson: Be willing to pivot when reality and your values diverge, even if it means leaving a prestigious path. 2. Redefine success beyond titles and rank * She struggled after leaving the Air Force because her identity was tied to “academy grad” and “officer.” * Leadership lesson: Anchor your worth in who you are and how you impact people daily, not in your job title. 3. Use mentors to unlock “freedom to choose” * A single honest conversation with her mentor gave Whitney “freedom” to imagine different possibilities. * Leadership lesson: Seek out mentors who model alternative paths and will tell you the truth about tradeoffs. 4. Make decisions with the best information you have now * Whitney references the Gen. George Patton quote about a good plan now vs. a perfect plan later, and emphasizes moving forward one step at a time. * Leadership lesson: Don’t wait for total certainty. Clarify what you know, what you don’t control, then act. 5. Integrity = keeping and honoring your word * From her transformational leadership class: * Keep your word when you can. * When you can’t, honor it: Notify early, reset expectations and clean up the impact. * Leadership lesson: Integrity isn’t perfection; it’s proactive ownership. This builds trust and reduces stress for everyone. 6. Name the stories that secretly run you (“what’s undefined runs you”) * Whitney recognized long-standing internal stories like “I don’t belong” from moving often as a Navy brat. * Leadership lesson: Identify your limiting narratives (e.g., “I can’t disappoint people,” “I don’t belong”) so they stop unconsciously driving your behavior. 7. Create a compelling future and work backwards * She describes standing in the future you want (for yourself or an organization) and asking, “If we were already there, how did we get here?” * Leadership lesson: Lead by designing the future state (culture, behaviors, outcomes), then reverse-engineer today’s actions. 8. Show up for people — especially in their storms * After her brother-in-law’s suicide, the support from church and Air Force community showed her the power of “just showing up.” * Leadership lesson: You rarely know what others are carrying. Leadership is often simply being present, unasked, when it matters. 9. Align daily actions with stated values * Whitney feels the most stress when her behavior and values (family, faith, health, service) are misaligned. * Leadership lesson: Use misalignment (stress, guilt, burnout) as a signal to recalibrate how you spend time, energy and money. 10. Invest in small, consistent habits (1% better) * Whitney references “atomic habits” — reading regularly, moving her body, cooking healthy meals and doing “one more rep.” * Leadership lesson: Long-term leadership impact comes from small, repeatable behaviors, not dramatic one-time efforts CHAPTERS 00:00:05 – Introduction & Transition Theme Whitney is welcomed to Long Blue Leadership. Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99, frames the episode around transitioning out of the military, and Whitney shares her background as part of a dual-military couple and early family life. 00:02:02 – Mentorship, Freedom & First Thoughts of Leaving Whitney describes reaching out to her mentor about transitioning to the reserves. That conversation gives her “freedom” to imagine a different life that prioritizes family and values over a 20-year active-duty career. 00:06:39 – Academy Lessons, Courage & Decision-Making Under Uncertainty Col. Walkwicz digs into Whitney’s use of the word “freedom.” Whitney connects her decision-making and leap of faith to leadership lessons from the Academy — facing unknowns, focusing on what she can control, and acting without a perfect plan. 00:10:13 – Growing Up Military & Redefining Identity Beyond Rank Whitney shares her deep military heritage as a Navy brat and descendant of generations of service. She explains the identity shock of leaving active duty and having to redefine success beyond titles like “officer” and “academy grad.” 00:13:26 – Values, Overwhelm & Redefining Success in Daily Life Whitney talks about aligning actions with values: quiet time, family, health and rest. She contrasts the nonstop pace of active duty with her new season as a stay-at-home mom and reservist, and how she now defines success. 00:17:19 – Loss, Suicide, Grief & the Power of Community Whitney shares the story of losing her brother-in-law to suicide in January 2020. She reflects on hidden struggles, the “buying bananas in the grocery store” moment of invisible grief, and the profound impact of church and Air Force community support. 00:23:12 – Learning to “Show Up” for Others Col. Walkewicz asks where Whitney learned to show up so intentionally. Whitney recalls community support during her dad’s deployments, meals after her first child’s birth, and a commander welcoming her back from maternity leave — illustrating the difference between knowing you should show up and actually doing it. 00:26:11 – Serving Beyond the Uniform: Church, Family & Cadet Morale Whitney explains what service looks like now: leading a 120-woman Bible study and serving on the USAFA Class of 2010 Cadet Morale Endowment board, which funds morale events for top cadet squadrons. She highlights meaningful leadership without a visible rank. 00:29:20 – Transformational Leadership & Redefining Integrity Whitney shares lessons from a transformational leadership course she took (and later taught): integrity means both keeping and honoring your word. She gives practical examples (calling when you’ll be late, managing deadlines early) and uses a bicycle-wheel analogy to show how broken commitments make everything bumpier. 00:32:07 – “What’s Undefined Runs You”: Naming Limiting Stories Whitney introduces the idea that unexamined stories (e.g., “I don’t belong,” “I can’t disappoint people”) quietly drive behavior. She shares her own “I don’t belong” narrative from moving often as a Navy kid and how she consciously claims, “I belong here,” to lead more authentically. 00:36:50 – Creating a Future & Leading from It Whitney explains how leaders can “stand” in a desired future for their organization — one of trust, transparency and camaraderie — and then work backward to identify the actions and changes needed today to get there. 00:38:33 – Advice to Young Jess: Vision, Risk & Trusting the Journey Asked what she’d tell her younger self, Whitney emphasizes clarifying what will matter at age 80, aligning life with that long-term view, being less risk-averse, and trusting God with unexpected pivots and new paths. 00:38:43 – Daily Habits, 1% Better & Long-Term Growth Whitney shares the small daily practices that make her “better”: reading and podcasts, surrounding herself with uplifting people, and health-oriented habits like walking and “one more rep.” She connects this to the concept of atomic habits and incremental growth. 00:40:52 – Closing: Character, Showing Up & Living Your Values Col. Walkewicz closes by summarizing Whitney’s key themes: leadership as character and presence, not having all the answers; simply showing up; and honoring integrity even amid uncertainty. She thanks Whitney for her ongoing service and impact. 00:42:05 – Production Note & Recording Date Ted Robertson notes that this Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded on Wednesday, Nov. 19, 2025.   ABOUT JESSICA BIO Jessica Whitney ’10 is a U.S. Air Force veteran, leadership coach and conflict resolution facilitator who helps executives and emerging leaders design purposeful futures and take aligned action. Drawing on more than a decade of military leadership experience navigating communication, conflict and high-stress environments, she supports individuals and teams in overcoming limiting beliefs, clarifying priorities and building systems that foster confident decision-making. Whitney specializes in one-on-one leadership coaching and workplace mediation, guiding productive conversations that transform tension into trust and strengthen organizational culture. She is also a wife, mother of four and advocate for intentional living, dedicating her work to empowering leaders to align their identities and results with their vision for the future. CONNECT WITH JESSICA LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-whitney/?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_profile_view_base_contact_details%3BMvYy0O8tR%2BqB2oX5XElg7g%3D%3D]  |  SIMPLIFIED MOTHERHOOD [https://simplifiedmotherhood.com] CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://usafa.org/LBL]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP [http://usafa.org/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP] AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, Jessica Whitney ’10  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here.   Jessica Whitney 0:08 Thanks so much for having me.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04 You know, one of the things we love to do, and we’re going to have some time really exploring a lot of the things that you've encountered in your journey, but we want to jump right into a place that is both relevant to our listeners, which is transitioning out of the military, but you did so in a way that was a little bit different, and maybe not on, like, the timeline of planning. Jessica Whitney 0:28 I'm a 2010 grad, and so is my husband, Tom, and he was a nuclear missile operator, and I was a finance officer on active duty, and we started having kids in 2013 which was just amazing. But being a dual military couple, we had kind of been through a lot of separation and time apart, which is standard for military couples. And so in 2013, I kind of — I just had my first son, and I was back at work, and I was just feeling this torn feeling, because I always thought I would stay in the Air Force the full 20 years. I loved serving. I loved being in the military, and having gone to the Academy — just all the dreams and the hopes that came with that, and being able to lead and serve my airmen. But I was feeling this yearning and desire to kind of do something else, and that's kind of where the seed was planted at that time. And I reached out to one of my mentors, who was actually the coach of the lacrosse team at the Academy when I was there my freshman year. She's actually one of your classmates, I think. She's Anne Marie Hornby. She's from Class of ’99, and I just reached out on Facebook, and I was like, “I know, I haven't talked in a while, but I just wanted to check in and ask, you know, like, why did you transition to the Reserve?” Because she was always, you know, she was a teacher at the Academy. Like, she was always high performing. Like, I knew she was an amazing officer. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:02 She was high performing as a cadet too, by the way. Jessica Whitney 2:05 I'm sure she was. Just everything she did, I could tell she did it with excellence and love, and I just really respected her opinion. So I reached out and asked her just like, “Hey, can you just tell me, like, why did you decide to separate?” I'm just kind of feeling this tornness, and I'm feeling like maybe my calling might be something else than serving in the military, which, as an 18-year-old, you kind of go to the Academy thinking, “OK, I'm gonna have four years at the Academy, and then I'm gonna serve for five years, or 12 years, or whatever.” Like, you've got your whole life planned out, and then all of a sudden there's this, you know, pivot and decision that you have to make of like, “OK, wait, life is throwing some things at me that I didn't expect.” And I just wanted to know her opinion. And she just said such a sweet thing that resonated with me, that she kind of felt that same call of, “I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I wanted to be able to focus more on my husband and my family.” And while it was scary, she said, I know she knew that motherhood, or like becoming a stay-at-home mom and transitioning to the Reserve wouldn't necessarily feed all of her desires of competition and performing well and using her strengths to the utmost, maybe that she could — she also knew that it aligned with what was important to her and her family. And each family is different, and each career is different. So it really gave me freedom to say, “OK, I know successful women in the military who have families. I know successful women outside of the military who have families.” And you know, we choose to do the stay-at-home mom career, which was different for me, because my mom worked full time when I was growing up. So anyway, it gave me that freedom to kind of like pivot and think, “OK, what could the possibility be to like, create this life of being there for my family?” So fast forward, 2016 I was teaching ROTC at Colorado State University, which was a dream job, by the way, I absolutely love that job. And Tom, my husband, at that point, had already separated from the Air Force and was pursuing his career in professional golf. He was traveling to PGA Latin America in both the fall and spring of 2016, I had to go TDY to field training for seven weeks that summer. And I think we counted up being apart for over 40 weeks that year.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35 Majority of the year.   Jessica Whitney 4:36 The majority of the year. Yeah, and I did not really see staying in the Air Force, it getting any better, as far as, you know, having more time with my family and my husband. And I just felt disconnected, my heart wasn't in it anymore and serving, and I still had that little, you know, seed that had been planted when I talked to Wibs about, you know, like, “Why did you go into the Reserve?” And I talked to a couple other reservists who just loved the balance of being able to still serve in uniform while also being able to maybe have a civilian career, or just be able to have some more flexibility to spend more time and focus on their families during a season of life. And so in 2016 I'm sitting there my desk, like, “I just want to go home and take a nap. I'm so tired.” I had two kids at this time. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I'm just exhausted.” But I was like, “OK, I think —" you know, my husband and I prayed about it, we were just like, “OK, I think it's time to just take this leap of faith, kind of walk away from what we've known.” So now both of us would be out of the Air Force and pivot to something else, and like, step into that faith decision that for us, that the Lord's going to provide, and that we wanted to build and focus on the things that were really important to us. So showing that if family faith are the most important things, how was I using my time? How was I using my energy? How are we using our money? Did it reflect what was actually important? And so we made that decision, and then I got out in 2017 and separated. And honestly, it was the best decision ever. Now, I struggled a ton with my identity afterwards, because I just didn't realize that I really kind of was wrapped up in this idea, like, “Oh, I'm an Air Force officer, I'm an Academy grad,” and those things are, like, very focused on what you do. And so I had to kind of redefine what success was to me as far as just impacting the people around me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:41 I want to just interject here for a moment, because you said a couple of things that I really want to pull on before we get too far, because I think it really does impact some of our listeners and some of the experiences that they've had. So the first one, when you talked about that transition, and there was a key word you use, and you use the word “freedom,” — “It gave me a freedom to kind of things a little differently” after having a conversation with your mentor, and then, you know, praying about it with your husband. And so I want to just explore that a little bit, because did you feel like that freedom, or just the ability to kind of navigate that did touch on some of the things you really valued that you learned at the Academy, as far as decision making, and kind of, you know, taking this leap of faith and navigating what's not always known. And, you know, I don't want to say it's safe, but maybe it's not the safest path, right? So, like, can you just touch on that a little bit more? Because I think that is something that, you know, people question that, kind of, in that decision-making place. Jessica Whitney 7:41 Yeah, I definitely think that in that decision, when I say, you know, we had this, I had this freedom to make a choice, we could, kind of, I could kind of lean back onto my time at the Academy of we were given so many challenges at the Academy and things that were unknown and things outside of our control, and you just learn to have an approach where you cannot problem-solve everything, but just like you can say, “OK, here's the variables I know that are true, here are the things that are outside of my control,” which just help you make clear decisions, and then just stepping into the fact that any decision, any action, is just taking one step at a time, and you don't have to have the whole future planned out. And in fact, in the military, you rarely do, right? I always kind of joke with my husband with, like, the quotes, but you know, like Gen. Patton, like “A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week,” right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:40 Next week. Thankful I was able to contribute a little. Jessica Whitney 8:43 Good job. Good job. Yes. And so just, but the fact that, like, just make — do what's best with the information you have now, and take action and don't just sit on it. And I think, but, yeah, that gave me that freedom. Because, yeah, it was a big step and leap of faith, because a lot of people think the military is, well, of course, it is a risky job, and especially risky in the sense of our physical harm and a lot of the challenges that we face. But in many ways, it's something we knew, know, and it's something that's very reliable, and it's something that we had, my husband and I had both lived for, you know, 11 years between the Academy and now. So it was a big leap of faith, as far as, you know, transitioning to the unknown, but we were able to kind of lean on just, “Hey, it's OK that we don't know everything. We can trust the skills that we gained at the Academy and trust the skills that we gain just in life to move forward.” And even with my husband, I'm like, “If this golf thing doesn't work out —" which, by the way, he's been a professional golfer for 10-plus years now, so it's worked out. I fully believe that we are capable of learning anything and doing anything if we choose to set our minds to it, and like we're gonna be OK, like, because of what we learned at the Academy and skills that we garnered. Like, we're gonna be OK moving forward. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:13 I love that. And you started to talk about having to redefine yourself, and before we get into that, I think it's interesting, because you grew up as a dependent of — your dad served in the Navy, right? So we like to use the term, you know, lovingly, I was an Air Force brat. You're a Navy brat, so your identity going into the Academy was already one of a military dependent, right? So let's talk about this redefining your identity, because I'm sure that it was much more than, you know, just on the surface level, it seems really simple, right, going from this, but I'm still serving, so it's not really that different, but I'm sure it was. Jessica Whitney 10:49 Yeah, it was a big transition. So as you mentioned, I was a Navy brat. My dad served for 30 years, and I come from a proud heritage of military service. My grandfather, before that, served in the Navy, he joined straight from the Philippines, and my great-grandfather actually served in the Philippine army and was in the Bataan Death March. So I've got a lot of history in the military and a lot of pride and service to my country. And my dad was always, you know, a hero to me and someone that I looked up to, as far as he was always, not the only serving in the military, but he would be a leader of, like my brother's Boy Scout troop, right, and volunteer with this, and he'd be active in the Rotary Club. And my mom worked full time and led my Girl Scout troop, and whenever he was gone to Bahrain for 16 months, you know, she held down the fort with three kids. Like, I just looked up to my parents and how hard working they were, and just how they were always serving something bigger than themselves and balancing family and all that. I still don't know how they do it. And we have four kids now. I'm like, how did you guys do all of that? But when I transitioned out of the Reserve, I just remember sitting one time, like, I was doing my quiet time in the morning, and I was reading my Bible. And at least for me, I had to remind myself my value is not in what I do. It's not in awards I get. My value is one, in Christ, and then two, in the actions that I take each and every day. And it's impacting and positively impacting the people that are around you right now. And honestly, it's a struggle every day, even today. I've been a stay-at-home mom for eight years now, and it's something I think we all struggle with — of like, what is our purpose in life? What is the reason — why we do the things we do? And each person really has to, like, struggle with that. So I had to, I think when I was really struggling with my identity, I had to redefine, like, OK, my worth and value is not in the title that I have or the rank that I have or anything like that. It is loving on the people around me really well and serving to the best of my ability with excellence in all we do right where I am, and that's the most important thing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:25 How did you get to that point of defining that? I mean, is it kind of in lockstep with your views of yourself as a leader? Or would you say it's just where you kind of settled into in your moments of quiet and through your prayer of, “This is how I define my impact and my —" you know, what that looks like? Jessica Whitney 13:48 I think a big chunk of it was just continuous practice, in a way, each and every day, reminding myself, one, is what success looks like, because I think that as people who are highly motivated and being leader, you're like, you've got your to do list, you've got your things you want to do. I've got, like, a to do list, like, this long, you know? And yeah, and I would just tell myself, like, “I've got 25 things to do. I only did six of them.” Like, there was no way I was going to do 25 things in the first place, you know. So I think that as a leader in general, you need to be realistic about what you can actually accomplish each and every day, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or you're a leader in the workplace, and actually be able to, like, you know, time block and say, like, “These are the most important things. These are my priorities.” And probably just over, it's probably just over time of like, every morning, like, "OK, the most important things, like, got my quiet time in. I'm spending time with the kids. I went for a walk, I moved my body, and we're eating healthy meals. I remember when I was working full time, I would kind of be jealous of those people who, like, had time to cook a full meal, and, like, spend an hour maybe making dinner and, you know, have quiet time. I always felt when I was on active duty working full time, it was just like, get up early in the morning, go to daycare, drop off, work all day. You know, work out during lunch. Never have a break, and then run home, make dinner really fast, and, like, get the kids in bed, and there was no break, and there was no rest. And so I remember yearning for that when I was on active duty. And so when I first became a stay-at-home mom, and when I first transitioned out of the Air Force. I really had to remind myself, like, OK, what are my values? What is most important here, and are my actions aligned with that? And if they are, then that's success right there. And so I had to remind myself that every day, like I get time to make healthy meals for my family. I have time to go to the gym five days a week if I want to. I have time to put a, you know, like, say yes to things like this. I've got time to go speak at the Veterans Day ceremony at my kids school. Like, I don't have to feel bad about missing appointments for my missing meetings at work for appointments for my kids. I don't have to choose that all the time. Now, serving in the Reserve, you know, I still miss weekends where the kids have tournaments and games and stuff, but that's OK, like it there's, there's a balance in there. I hate the word balance, because I don't think you ever really achieve that. But I think that as leaders, you know, we have to — like, when you're feeling the most stressed, or when I felt the most stressed, it's when my actions and behaviors just haven't lined up with my values and what's most important to me. “So as leaders in your organization, if you know you guys are — your stated values, are, you know, XYZ, but you're over here doing ABC, then there's going to be disconnect in the organization.” So I think at any time, you know, when there's alignment there, then you're going to feel alignment for you as a person, as a leader. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:19 I'd like to dig into those values a little bit, because we did talk about how you've experienced deep personal loss, right, in your family, and you know, how have the values, or maybe just your life experiences, helped you navigate that? Because, you know, I think people experience grief on all levels, and if you don't mind sharing your story a little bit, I think it just will allow others to understand how you were able to navigate through that and maybe continue to navigate through that today. Jessica Whitney 17:51 Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share this part of my story. So my husband's brother, Bob, was a 2008 grad, and unfortunately, we lost him to suicide in January of 2020. It was really just a complete shock when it did happen. It seemed like it came on so quickly. Bob was just always someone that when you walk into a room, he was always smiling. He was the light in the room. He was such a great husband and father. He was super active in his church and his family. And so a couple things that I took away from all of that was just one, we just never know what people are going through, what storms they are, like, they might seem perfect on the outside, and really, they're having struggles with maybe imposter syndrome or just doubt, or they're just having all sorts of issues, right? So you just never know. I remember standing in the grocery store after he passed away, and I'm like, staring at these bananas that I'm supposed to be buying for eight kids because we were like, up with them, you know, after the funeral. And I'm just thinking, like, no one around me knows that this just happened in my life, and I'm just standing here doing this mundane thing of buying bananas. And I think it, just, as a leader makes you realize that people are walking through storms all over around you, and if you're not currently in a storm, most likely you will be. After he passed away too, we were just blown away by the community support that he received, both from his church as well as from the Air Force family, but I know that it takes time to have good community. It takes — you have to invest time. And all of us, we're just so busy, but these relationships, these are the most important things that we can work on and develop the people around us. It kind of showed up for me in my unit, we had an airman who lost a spouse. He had three young kids at home, and his wife passed away. And I was like, we just need to show up for him, like, be at his doorstep. And we're in the Reserve. We don't live close together. We're not all stationed by the base. So, you know, it's like someone needs to go to his house, bring him a card, tell him we love and care for him as our Air Force family. And you know, he even commented afterwards, he was like, “You know what, you guys—” this Air Force family that he only saw one weekend a month. He's like, “You guys are my lifeline.” But I know that, for me, I really knew that we needed to show up, and that's because I knew what it felt like when people showed up at my door, when we needed it, you know? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:51 Wow. I mean, I think that's really — I mean, to navigate that. And loss, I think you know, is as a journey, that it's still a life journey, right? And so, and I think the fact that you were able to lean in and you knew and expressed it in a way that you know, showing up for those and then seeing it happen actually in your unit, and being able to translate that. Have you always known, I guess, about showing up? Have you seen that in other leaders in your career or in your life, what showing up looks like? How that really defined you? Because I'm curious if you know that was all just developed in seeing that in that loss journey, or if it was something you've seen over time and then witnessed it? Jessica Whitney 21:37 I guess I would say, if I'm really looking back, especially because I'm a Navy brat, right? We did live in places all over the country, and, yeah, we did have a good support system. Like my friends, my family, had people that would show up. Like when my dad was deployed, they would show up at the house when I was in high school. You know, we had such a tight knit community there, but I am thinking, like the first time I really felt that was with our church community. After our first son was born, people would show up at our house, and I didn't even know them, and they were bringing food to us. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so sweet.” But just, like, that power of community, and then even with leaders that I've had in the past, like my first squadron commander that I can remember, she, like, the first day I got back again from maternity leave, she had, like, just brought, like, a little vase of flowers and put it on my desk, and just like a welcome back, but like an acknowledgement too. Of you know, it's hard to come back after, right? You know, your first child, or any child, like after you have a baby, and then you come back to work, but just, you know, welcoming and showing up. And I think that this, I don't know exactly where it stems from, but, yeah, actually taking the time to do it, because a lot of us know we should do it, but do we actually pause long enough to do it? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:11 That's a really great — I think that particular nugget, right? We know what we should be doing, but do we actually take the steps to do it? I think, is actually an important lesson right there. And, you know, would you say that throughout your experiences, and I'm really curious, because I think, you know, you talk about being a stay-at-home mom, but I'm sure your schedule is quite — you said you get six out of your 25 things done. Can you talk about how you're serving outside of the uniform? Because I think that that's really important as well. Service doesn't stop just because we take the uniform off. And I mean, it sounds like you're serving in your church and your community. You know, what does service look like to you now, through that leadership lens, maybe when you're not wearing a rank all the time? Jessica Whitney 23:54 I have really looked at the areas of my life that I want to be active in, like, what's important to me? And in the church, I participate in the women's Bible study, and I'm one of the leaders there and kind of help lead. We have 120 women that come every Wednesday and I'm one of the leaders that, you know, kind of facilitates the overall Bible study. And I've just loved stepping into that role and using my leadership skills to encourage people and show up. And then the other board I kind of serve on is the Class of 2010 Endowment for Cadet Morale. And so our class, with our funds that we, you know, had raised throughout the years, decided to set up a morale fund. So the top squadron for each semester actually receives a $5,000 check from our endowment, and they can use it on whatever they want. And I just remember, like those cadets, those high schoolers that are transitioning to be future leaders of the Air Force, they are amazing. I am impressed every time I interact with them. And the Academy is hard, and I just want to offer that little bit of light, you know, to encourage them. Like, “Hey, you're on a good path. Like, just, just continue on. And here's a little bonus, bonus check.” You know, literally, we love that part. But yeah, so I just love to step into service where I can. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:23 I'm glad that you shared that, because I do think it's easy for us to downplay our role and impact in the hats that we wear and the ways that we serve, and so I really appreciate you sharing that, because I think that's an important part of our stories you talked about with me before you know, redefining yourself. I want to go back to that because I think it has to do with being authentic and who you are. And so as you've navigated this new season in your life where you're still serving in these multiple hats and raising your family, supporting your husband, you know, where was that seed planted from, being an authentic leader, kind of, you know, being — leading with integrity, you know, maybe saying, “I can't do this, but I can do this.” Can you talk a little bit about that? Jessica Whitney 26:07 Yeah, absolutely. I took an amazing class at the Academy, a leadership class that a friend of mine, again from the lacrosse team, recommended me, and she's like, “Jess, this class — it's called transformational leadership. It's way more than that. I really think you need to take this course.” And she was so right, because there are so many things that I carry over from that, from that course into my leadership, and then just my everyday life. And it was taught by Capt. Kari Granger, who's now Kari Zeller, and she's an Academy grad as well. And when I got to my ROTC detachment in 2016, so eight years later, this gentleman came into the office, and he's like, “Hey, my daughter teaches this leadership course called being a leader and the effective exercise of leadership. I really want to teach it at Colorado State, but I'm looking for someone to partner with, maybe through the detachment. Like, do you think anybody would want to co-lead this class with me?” And his name was Karl Zeller, and I was like, “I think I took this class when I was at the Academy, and it was amazing, and I would love to lead this class with you.” And so not only did I take the class at the Academy, I also taught it two semesters while at Colorado State, we kind of made it an elective class, and we had several cadets and cadre go through the class, which was just an amazing experience. Because I think most of us know that when we have to teach other people something, we learn it even better than when we go through it ourselves. So the kind of the main takeaways I had were one kind of heard the definition of integrity. We all know the Air Force's definition of doing what you know the right thing when no one's watching, when nobody's looking, but she kind of defined it more as both keeping your word and honoring your word. So we all know that keeping your word that's easy, but what is honoring your word mean? And her framework kind of laid out, honoring your word is, as soon as you realize you're not going to keep your word, notifying the person that involves saying when you are going to keep your word and then cleaning up any mess that you made by not doing it. So a quick example would be, you know, you're running late to a doctor's appointment. You get in the car, you realize, “Oh my gosh, I'm going to be seven minutes late to the appointment.” Instead of, like, white knuckling your steering wheel to make it in time, you feel guilty when you get there. You immediately call the office. You tell them, “Hey, I'm going to be late to the appointment. I'm going to get there seven minutes late. And, you know, I realized that this has an impact on you like, you know, let me know if I need to reschedule." Whatever it is, right? Most people are so shocked by this ownership that they are so much more gracious to you in whatever the circumstances are. And on top of that, you're not stressed. You're not, you know, white knuckling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:22 So when it really takes you nine minutes to get there? Yeah,.   Jessica Whitney 29:26 So hopefully overestimate.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:28 Seven minutes and 40… Like, round down. Jessica Whitney 29:29 My husband calls that, like, Jess math. I'm like, yeah, well, it's fine. It's fine. But, like, if you think about in the workplace, right, like, you have an assignment, you have something your boss gave you, it's due Friday. You realize Monday, OK, there's no way I'm going to do this. I can either stress about it, work super late hours and, you know, like cause all this extra stress, and then maybe still not accomplish and get the work done, and then show up to my boss on Friday and say, “OK, sorry, boss, I couldn't get it done.” Or on Monday, you bring up the conversation, you swallow your pride, and you say, “These are my challenges.” You manage expectations, and you're you guys together. Can you know, either reassign, get help or bump the deadline, whatever it is, but now you're no longer living in this like, fear of like, I'm going to be late or whatever, like you're able to perform better. And so they, in the class, they talked about how, with integrity, everything works. And they talk about the idea of like a bicycle wheel, right? There's spokes on a bicycle wheel, and if all the spokes are intact, it's going to run very smoothly, right? That's keeping your word and honoring your word, you're performing really well. Well, when you're not honoring and those folks and you're not keeping your word, or you're not honoring your word, some of those books are missing, so it's just going to be a little bit bumpier. And things are going to get done, but they're not going to get done as well as they would if you were honoring your word. So that's a big takeaway Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:56 That’s a great analogy. Wow. Yeah. Jessica Whitney 30:58 So I apply that, I feel like in everything, because I think a lot of us will get in the way of ourselves, of just like, “Oh, I don't want to tell them and be late, or I don't want to, I don't know, disappoint someone, or I know there's expectations with my husband, but I'm just going to ask forgiveness instead of, you know, for permission,” or whatever it is with whoever. So anyway, with integrity, nothing works. And so I kind of take that away of, like, OK, what's expected of me? OK, I'm going to try to meet that. And that kind of lines up too with just this idea of what's your values, right? So if I say I'm a person that values fitness, do my actions line up with that. That's part of my word. OK, so I've said, I've said, “OK, I'm a fitness person and I want to be healthy.” Well, am I going to the gym? Am I eating healthy? Am I drinking too much? Am I — whatever? Do my actions align with that? No, OK, I'm not in integrity. It's not bad or good. It's just not working as well. Not going to accomplish my goals if I'm not in alignment with the other two things. And I'll just touch on them quickly, and then we can explore more if you want. But the other one is what's undefined runs you, which is basically means — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:06 Wait, say that one more time. Jessica Whitney 32:09 What's undefined runs you. So it's this idea of all of us have stories most likely from our childhood that we make up about ourselves. So like, I don't belong. I can't disappoint people. I have to get things done the right time. And we can probably all look back in our past and say, “I remember I got in trouble one time when my grandpa was at the house and I was late getting in, and he said, you know, you're disappointing your mom. You're not listening to her.” And then, all of a sudden, you make this life sentence for yourself of I can't disappoint my mom. I can't disappoint so now you have this filter, this mindset that all of your decisions and actions flow through that says I can't disappoint others. Well, of course, that's going to limit what you can and can't do, because it's filtering out half of, you know, a quarter of action, anything that could any — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:03 Risk or grit. Jessica Whitney 33:05 Exactly. And so what the undefined run you means you're never going to be able to completely get rid of these filters and things that you have, but you can name them and define them. So you say, OK, like for me, I was a Navy brat. I moved around a lot, and so I often felt like I didn't belong where I was. Like, I always felt like people already had relationships, all that stuff. So I do, I know that I will walk into a room like a Bible study, and in my mind, think, “Man, like, people just don't really connect with them. Like, maybe they just don't like me.” I'm like, “No, I've been here for five years. I belong here. I am a part of this group.” But it's this, you know, filter that I'm running things through, of I don't belong. I need to name that, remove it, and then be like, OK, I belong here. I am part of this group. Naviere Walkewicz 33:54 So what have you named it? And have you removed it? Jessica Whitney 33:59 I think it's more about just the awareness. So it's like that, we as leaders have to be aware of the things that are getting in our own way of being an effective leader. And so I — this is a big one for me, like the I don't belong. So even recently, I walked into a new group of women and I said, “I belong here. I am a part of this community.” It's like at my son's school, and I can contribute as me. I don't have to hold back, or, you know, be a certain way. I can be myself. I can be my authentic self and lean into this. And it was very freeing, because in the past, I have gone in and just kind of like sat kind of back, and I don't want to be intimidating, or I don't want to take over the conversation, or just whatever it is, I'm not being myself, and I have to tell myself, like, “I belong here. I can be myself if they don't accept me for me, that's OK,” you know. But I can't hold back just because I'm trying to fit in and just because I'm trying to be risk averse, or, you know, conflict averse, or something like that. So, yeah, just be yourself, right? But so what's undefined runs you. So as leaders, we need to identify what's holding us back, what's running our lives, right? And just name it. They have a phrase: “Name it to tame it.” So once you can put a name on it, then that often helps you change your actions, you know? And then the last one is just, I think leaders, you are a leader. If you are impacting something around you, the organization, the people around you, they wouldn't be who they are without your influence. So in that framework, we talked about creating a future as leaders. So you've got a current organization, and maybe there's, you know, like no one likes to hang out, there's gossip, there's toxic leadership, there's bad communication, no transparency. This is a very imaginary organization, of course. But you acknowledge, like, OK, this is what's going on. Let's create a future. What does the future look like that we actually want, with all the actions and things like, OK, we have transparency. We like to hang out. There's, you know, Squadron picnics. We go to PT and we all encourage and work hard. We handle conflict in a healthy way. OK, so if we're standing in that future and looking back, how did we get here? So the course is a lot about, like the whole ends, ways, means that the Air Force talks about, but just how can you stand in the future and look back and say, “How did I get to that spot?” And then that's how, you know, what's the next action you can take in this current spot? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:49 Wow. Jess, it's almost like you read my mind, because there's two questions I actually want to ask you, and one of them is about looking back. So why don't we start with that one? First, you know, what is something you would tell yourself, young Jess back then that you could be doing then to help you be a better leader now? And is it actually what you just talked about, or would it be something else you would add? Jessica Whitney 37:11 No, I think it would be just that. Like, no, where do you want to be even, like, let's say, in five years, or what's going to be most important to you in 80 years? Right when you're 80, when you look back on your life like, what's going to really matter? And start aligning your life with that. Now, some of that takes time, but standing in that future of how you want it to feel, how it looks, how you want your organization to feel. Like, start — write it down, put it on a vision board, talk about it with someone. And then I would say to myself, like, and then start working towards it. I think when I was younger, I was, you know, I was comfortable with where I was at. I was afraid to take risk. I was afraid to do things different than what I always thought I would do. And you know, for me, the Lord really worked in it, in my heart of just saying, Just trust me. Just trust me with that next step you have the direction you kind of want to go, and I'm going to take you on a journey that you know you're probably never going to be able to predict, kind of like, what I talked about at the beginning, like I pivoted, like it was completely different than what I want, and just be OK with that. That's the beauty of life is, you know, pivoting with what's in front of you, but just taking that next, that next step. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:32 I love that. And then what is something that you do every day, just to be better and better is really you define better, but what is something you're doing every day. Jessica Whitney 38:42 I love the books, like The Power of Habit and Atomic Habits and yeah, they're so good in just this idea of your daily actions are, what are, who you are, really like, how you show up in the world, because you can only control what you're doing today. Can't control what you're doing tomorrow or what you did in the past, and so for me, one, I do love to read. So I'm always reading books, listening to podcasts and all that kind of stuff. So I think, as a leader, just, like, surround yourself with lots of different opinions, read different things and just encourage my brain. Two, I love to surround myself with people that encourage me and a community that's going to help me challenge myself to improve. And then three, like those daily actions of self-improvement, of like, OK, how can I be just like, 1% better than I was yesterday, whether that be choosing to eat a little healthier today or going on a 30-minute walk, or, you know, when you're lifting weights like, Can I do five pounds more on this? Like, one or one more rep, right? Like, one more. But I do love that analogy, and weightlifting like, OK, I didn't realize that, you know, like, I can do one more rep this week than I could last but three months ago, you know, I've made huge improvement from three months ago. But you don't realize until after the fact. So I think, you know, being a high achiever all my life, it's like, you want to see these big, like, changes and, you know, immediately, but oftentimes it's in these, like, small moments of like, “How can I just be better today?” Healthwise, community-wise. Who can I love on today? How can I, you know, for me, like being in alignment with, you know, what I think God has for my life, being in prayer and focusing on the people around me. You know, that seems like a lot of things. That's why I've got 25 things on my list, , Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:44 But you get a few of them done And that's OK, because you just gotta do one. Jessica Whitney Exactly, you just gotta do one. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:51 Well, I can just share how much, you know, you really just like leaned in and shared your love and wisdom with all of us. And I think that's one of the things I really appreciated about this today: how you showed up for us and shared your authentic self, and so I just want to say thank you. You know, as we wrap up today's conversation, Jess, what's really stood out to me is that we talked about leadership is just about as much about character, but it's really also about, like, showing up and who you are. You know, you show us just that strong leaders don't just show up and need to have all the answers. They actually just need to show up, right? And just, you know, live their values, live with integrity. And I love how you said, you know, honor your integrity even when life is uncertain or changing. So, you know, I think your transition out of active duty could have been a moment of doubt and struggle, but you turned it into an opportunity to serve, and your family has continued to thrive. So thank you for all that you're doing in your community, and for all of you who need to hear this journey, for those that have also gone or going through a transition, this is a conversation you certainly don't want to miss. So again, thank you to Jess Whitney, Class of 2010. It's been a pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership.   Jessica Whitney 42:05 Thanks again. Outro 42:05 This Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded Wednesday, Nov., 19, 2025. KEYWORDS Leadership, authentic leadership, transformational leadership, values-based leadership, character-driven leadership, servant leadership, integrity, honoring your word, keeping your word, accountability, responsibility, vulnerability in leadership, decision-making under uncertainty, courage, leading through change, creating a future, vision casting, aligning actions with values, purpose-driven leadership, redefining success, identity as a leader, mentoring, mentorship, developing others, showing up for your people, empathy, compassion, community building, resilience, leading through grief, supporting mental health, trust, transparency, culture change, organizational alignment, handling conflict, managing expectations, setting priorities, work-life integration for leaders, modeling behavior, investing in relationships, daily leadership habits, incremental improvement, 1% better mindset, self-awareness, naming limiting beliefs, “what’s undefined runs you”, authenticity, influence without rank, service beyond the uniform, leading in family and community, Long Blue Leadership. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation