Customer Confidential: Untold Stories of Earned Growth

Episode 246: The AI future of customer service is already here—and it’s better than most people think. In this episode, Deon Nicholas, President and Executive Chairman of Forethought, joins host Rob Markey to show us how some companies are already using AI to resolve customer issues end-to-end in ways we could barely imagine just a couple of years ago. Deon introduces us to agentic AI: an emerging class of intelligent agents that take real action, integrate across enterprise systems, and adapt to each customer’s needs. Drawing on his experience building Forethought’s platform, Deon reveals how these systems are resolving issues, improving customer satisfaction, and going live in as little as 1 to 30 days. This isn’t a future promise. It’s happening now. The episode explores the architecture behind agentic AI, including Forethought’s use of multi-agent systems, plain-language Autoflows, and a Discover model that learns company policies from historical tickets and call logs. Rob and Deon dig into risk, hallucination, and data privacy concerns—and how to address them without six-month implementation timelines. A surprising insight? Forethought sometimes adds a delay to its lightning-fast responses. Why? To build trust through operational transparency. Deon explains how even loading dots can reassure customers that the system is working on their behalf. Guest: Deon Nicholas [https://www.linkedin.com/in/deon-nicholas/], Founder, President, and Executive Chairman, Forethought Host: Rob Markey [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmarkey/], Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: Help us improve the podcast (feedback link) [http://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback] Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey [https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob]. Key Topics Covered * [1:00] Agentic AI vs. traditional chatbots * [2:00] Why chatbots fail regarding decision trees and limitations * [4:00] Real-time AI issue resolution and automation * [7:00] AI integration with enterprise systems * [12:00] Fast deployment and autoflow policy learning * [15:00] Multi-agent AI systems and scalability * [18:00] AI adoption challenges and business integration * [22:00] Balancing AI automation and human agent handoffs * [27:00] Cost comparison of AI vs. business process outsourcing * [30:00] Rapid AI deployment and testing strategies Time-stamped Notable Quotes * [4:00]  “With an agentic AI, you have something that has learned from your business policies. It's read through hundreds of thousands of past conversations, knows the vernacular, knows how to respond, and knows the business policy. So, instead of getting a menu of items, you just have a conversation.” * [13:00]  “You probably already have hundreds of thousands of conversations, whether they're sitting in transcripts, support tickets, [or] call recordings. It turns out that is a wealth of data that can train an AI in such a way that you don't need to manually create all these rules and decision trees and workflows.” * [ 16:00] “When we first launched our LLM-native AI two years ago, there were some hallucinations. But we've been able to go through, evaluate the model, fine-tune the model, and now we’re at the point where it rarely happens. What we typically say to everyone is: ‘Test it. Test it before you launch it, run a 14-day free trial, proof of value, run us against anyone else in the market.’” * [21:00]  “What's beautiful about all of this is now you get to the point where AI can become embedded into the ecosystem—and, ironically, make all of these human experiences better.” * [21:00] “AI is making it so that when it's time to actually hand off to a human agent, you're far less frustrated, or far less likely to be frustrated. And then the humans will now be resolving issues that require more judgment and more empathy.”

Episode 245: What happens when digital transformation becomes table stakes—and customer relationships become the real differentiator? Eduardo Roma, Global Head of Customer Experience Transformation at Bain, believes companies that spent years optimizing transactions and digitizing every interaction are now unprepared for what matters most: becoming more humanized. The human element is now critical, and efficiency can’t be mistaken for real connection. Eduardo outlines three forces reshaping customer experience: Digital is now table stakes, customer power has surged to new heights, and predictive, data-driven relationships are setting brands apart.  Too many organizations still equate digitization with progress while missing what actually builds loyalty: emotional relevance, early engagement, and personalized support that evolves alongside customer needs. Learn how leading firms are using data to build trust, earn loyalty, and deliver meaningful value—especially in the earliest moments of the customer relationship. And discover how to make customer engagement a true driver of growth. Guest: Eduardo Roma [https://www.linkedin.com/in/eduardoroma/], Partner, Bain & Company, Global Head of Customer Experience Transformation Host: Rob Markey [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmarkey/], Partner, Bain & Company Give us feedback: Customer Confidential Podcast Feedback [https://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback] Send us a note: Contact Rob [https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob] Topics Covered: 00:30 – Why customer experience is at an inflection point 01:00 – Digital experiences are now table stakes 02:00 – Generative AI and the shift in customer power 03:10 – Moving from reactive to proactive experience management 05:00 – The limits of digitization when every app feels the same 07:00 – Personalization that creates value, not just sells more 08:30 – The problem with local optimization in product teams 11:15 – Digital capture vs. earning engagement 14:00 – Humanizing experiences with data and behavioral science 17:00 – Creating customer value creation plans 20:00 – How new challengers are forcing incumbents to rethink CX 21:30 – Predictive, proactive engagement and relationship signals 24:00 – Why CX professionals must speak the language of value Notable Quotes: * “Now that [companies] have digitized experiences, they really need to humanize those experiences through data. And what I mean by that is how to make interactions with customers much more meaningful, much more relevant, [and] much more personalized in a way that those interactions build enduring relationships with customers.” * “There are way too many degrees of separation of people who understand the customers and where some of the decisions are being made. It is important for organizations to be aware of those blind spots and to close those gaps.” * “The whole idea of just focusing on the experience, we need to move people beyond that. Move to relationships, to stop and think where we are on this experience pointing in time. We need a more holistic view.” *  ”Now, customers are much more in control. That is [a] transformation of organizations, when they think about the reach and relevance of the relationship they have with customers.” Additional Resources: * Transforming Customer Experience with AI: A Guide to Sustainable Growth [https://www.bain.com/insights/transforming-customer-experience-with-ai-a-guide-to-sustainable-growth-webinar/] (A webinar by Eduardo Roma, Rob Markey, and Phil Sager) * Eduardo Roma on Three Changes on Customer Engagement [https://www.bain.com/our-team/eduardo-roma/] (Video located on Eduardo’s profile page)

Episode 244: What defines a differentiated customer experience? It starts with a clear framework for measuring intangible value and making calculated trade-offs. In this special tribute show, we revisit our 2016 conversation with Eric Almquist, a former partner at Bain & Company, on the Elements of Value. This framework transforms how businesses understand loyalty, brand equity, and growth. Inspired by Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, Eric made value practical, categorizing 30 elements into functional, emotional, life-changing, and social impact levels. His research connected the dots between delivering on multiple elements and revenue growth. Learn how successful industry leaders deliberately layer value over time and how even in B2B, solutions that ease complexity can offer emotional benefits, such as hope. Eric was a pioneer in customer analytics and segmentation, his mantra being: What do customers truly value? His valuable insights continue to shape business thinking. Today we celebrate his legacy in customer experience and brand strategy. Guest: Eric Almquist, former partner, Strategy & Marketing practice, Bain & Company Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmarkey/] Give Us Feedback: We’d love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey [http://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback]. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob [https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob] Topics Covered: * [00:01:00] Eric Almquist discusses the Elements of Value and why they were created to help managers better understand demand * [00:02:00] Eric’s contributions to customer analytics, segmentation, and experimental design * [00:03:00] How the Elements of Value were first developed, inspired by questions about what customers truly value * [00:04:00] The connection between the Elements of Value and Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and why Maslow’s model is hard to apply in business * [00:05:00] The four levels of the Elements of Value: functional, emotional, life-changing, and social impact * [00:06:00] The impact of delivering multiple elements of value on revenue growth and customer advocacy * [00:07:00] The 2016 Harvard Business Review article and how the framework connects to Net Promoter Score℠ * [00:08:00] Unexpected insights from the research, including how B2B solutions can provide emotional value, such as hope * [00:09:00] The evolution of the framework, from 16 to 36 elements over time * [00:10:00] How value can persist across generations, such as in heirlooms and wealth preservation * [00:11:00] The role of brand strategy and the caution against over-promising value in marketing * [00:12:00] Closing remarks from Rob Markey, reflecting on Eric Almquist’s impact and legacy Time-stamped Notable Quotes: * [00:01:00] "There's a fundamental asymmetry within management that it's easier to manage the cost side than it is the demand side, because the cost, you can see, you can quantify. It's much harder to know how to increase demand, and how to increase revenue. That asymmetry is what's motivated me to develop the elements of value.” * [00:04:00] "Maslow's hierarchy of needs was developed in the mid-20th century. So as we're drawing on something very old, when I talk to audiences, I'll ask them if they know Maslow's hierarchy of needs and all the hands go up, and then I ask them how many of you have used it to, say, improve a product or think of a new product, and the hands tend to go down. The reason is that it's pretty academic." * [00:05:00] "We began to think about functional elements of value, emotional elements of value that could be life-changing. Following Maslow's hierarchy, the top of the pyramid, the highest level of motivation, was around altruism or charitable giving. We call that social impact." * [00:07:00] "If you are delivering on zero elements of value by our threshold definition, revenue growth tends to be around negative 2%. If you're delivering on four or more elements of value, the average is 13%. Eight of the original 47 companies that we looked at were delivering on zero elements of value at our threshold. The truth is if you're delivering on zero elements of value for very long, you're probably going to be crushed by a competitor or be acquired, would be my guess." * [00:09:00] "[The elements of value] really began as a thought experiment. I began thinking about all the work that I had done over all the decades, thinking about what I've heard in focus groups and interviews and observations and surveys. I began to realize value is not infinitely complex nor mysterious. There are actually things that you can point to that are appealing or not appealing.” Additional information on what was discussed in today’s episode: * HBR article, The Elements of Value, by Eric Almquist [https://hbr.org/search?term=Eric%252520Almquist], John Senior [https://hbr.org/search?term=John%252520Senior], and Nicolas Bloch [https://hbr.org/search?term=Nicolas%252520Bloch]: https://hbr.org/2016/09/the-elements-of-value [https://hbr.org/2016/09/the-elements-of-value]  * Eric’s perspective on the elements of value: https://www.bain.com/insights/eric-almquist-managing-the-elements-of-value-video/ [https://www.bain.com/insights/eric-almquist-managing-the-elements-of-value-video/] * Episode 117 of Customer Confidential with Eric, What Do B2B Customers Want?: https://baincompany.libsyn.com/ep-117-eric-almquist-what-do-b2b-customers-want [https://baincompany.libsyn.com/ep-117-eric-almquist-what-do-b2b-customers-want]  * Explore the B2C elements of value in more detail here: https://www.bain.com/insights/elements-of-value-interactive [https://www.bain.com/insights/elements-of-value-interactive]

Episode 243: At Emory University, 99% of donations come from just 8% of donors. It’s a small alumni minority funding almost the majority of the university. This raises a big question: How do you cultivate loyalty among everyone else? In this episode, Emory’s Chief Experience Officer, Cutler Andrews, describes how they’re dismantling silos—by merging alumni relations, donor relations, and events—to offer a cohesive experience. They’re seeing success. Within five years, Emory’s engagement nearly doubled from 28,000 to 54,000 participating alumni. Learn how Emory’s four engagement metrics (philanthropy, attendance, communications, and volunteering) feed a carefully designed funnel, turning casual alumni into potential major donors. We also explore how tracking personal preferences and tailoring interactions drives lasting impact. It’s about balancing short-term fundraising with authentic relationships. How do you nurture entrepreneurs—those overlooked until “cash out”—and future big givers, without neglecting current donors? Learn how thoughtful engagement fosters trust, broadens participation, and reduces reliance on a few generous supporters. Guest: Cutler Andrews, Chief Experience Officer & Senior Associate Vice President, Emory University [https://www.linkedin.com/in/cutlerandrews/] Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmarkey/] Give Us Feedback: We’d love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey [https://qaz1.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_82eRMcBp4zP2CCq]. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob [https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob] Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: - [00:02:19 - 00:03:00] Merging engagement, communications, and marketing: Cutler describes the creation of a unified team to orchestrate all donor-facing activities under one umbrella. - [00:03:39 - 00:04:26] Overcoming siloed teams: How sending separate letters, emails, and event invites—without coordination—diminishes the overall constituent experience. - [00:07:51 - 00:09:00] Engagement vs. fundraising: Cutler explains why alumni relations are often viewed as more feel-good, whereas fundraising may often be seen as purely transactional. - [00:14:36 - 00:16:00] Emory’s four engagement buckets: How Emory measures engagement via philanthropy, attendance, communications, and volunteering—and why each bucket matters. - [00:27:00 - 00:29:00] The risk of relying on a tiny donor base: Cutler points out that roughly 99% of their funding comes from around 8% of donors, underscoring the need to reach that remaining 92%. Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [00:00:27] “Ninety-nine percent of our money comes from seven or eight percent of our donors. That’s scary, because if that keeps getting smaller, it’s a ton of risk.” [00:01:03] “We have all of these KPIs and goals, and the only question people ask is, ‘How much money [have you] raised?’ That’s part of the story, but that is the output of a greater story.” [00:06:22] “Yes, large gifts help, but alumni engagement has to serve that mission, too. It can't just be, ‘Make our alumni community feel good and give them programs.’ We have to ask the questions, ‘To what end? To what value?’” [00:27:10] “All of a sudden there’s an exit and there’s an influx of cash, and then everybody’s jumping on. It’s like, ‘You haven’t talked to this person at all—why do you think they’ll want to engage now?’ It shouldn’t always be because, ‘I know in ten years, they might make a gift.’” [00:33:10] “We've seen engagement go from 28,000 alumni to 54,000 alumni in five years because of that intentionality, that creativity, and thinking through that if somebody does a great event over here, but if we can't market it over here, it's not going to do any good.”

Episode 242: Wells Fargo has established a clear position on artificial intelligence: If you can't explain how an AI model works, you shouldn't deploy it. This stance challenges the common assumption that black box algorithms are acceptable costs of advanced AI capabilities. In this episode, Kunal Madhok, Head of Data, Analytics, and AI for Wells Fargo's consumer business, reveals how the bank has operationalized this philosophy to enhance customer experiences while maintaining rigorous standards for model explainability and ethical deployment. The stakes for financial institutions are substantial. As banking becomes increasingly digitized, organizations must balance sophisticated personalization with transparency and trust. Wells Fargo's approach demonstrates that explainability isn't merely about regulatory compliance—it's a fundamental driver of business value and customer trust. Through rigorous review processes and a commitment to "plain English" explanations of algorithmic decisions, Wells Fargo ensures its models remain logical, aligned with business objectives, and comprehensible to stakeholders at all levels. This transparency serves multiple purposes: avoiding unintended consequences, maintaining human oversight of automated systems, and ensuring data-driven decisions actually drive business value. Discover how Wells Fargo's insistence on explainable AI is reshaping everything from product recommendations to customer service, while setting new standards for responsible innovation in financial services. Guest: Kunal Madhok, EVP, Head of Data, Analytics and AI, Wells Fargo [https://www.linkedin.com/in/kunal-madhok-5465922/] Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmarkey/] Give Us Feedback: We’d love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey: http://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback [http://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback] Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob [https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob] Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: * [00:04:13] Integrating data science into business decisions and ensuring data-driven insights * [00:07:29] Kunal’s vision for personalization and delivering relevant, value-based products * [00:09:22] Wells Fargo's ability to leverage life events and transactional data to better serve customers * [00:11:05] Democratizing financial advice and offering tailored advice based on customer needs * [00:16:53] Using live experimentation and AI models to tailor product offers and marketing * [00:19:17] Strategic investment decisions for new product launches and capacity reservations using simulations * [00:22:45] Explainability, and what this looks like in action * [00:37:22] Strategies around servicing interactions and the key challenges around this work that demand solving Time-stamped Notable Quotes: * [00:00:27] “When a customer walks into a bank, they’re expecting you to know them.” * [00:04:19] “Part of my role is to make sure we use data science in every business decision we make as an organization. And what that means is not just the quality and the fidelity of data, but also that decisions are made not based on intuition, but on real data outcomes.” * 00:07:29] "Good personalization is: We'll give you the right product based on your interests and your needs, and we'll deliver it in a way that you want. Which is the right channel, the right offers.” * [00:12:17] “If we can add value to our customers, they expect it. I'm sure when you turn on [a streaming service] today, it gives you a whole bunch of movies, shows to watch, curated just for you, based on your past history. And if they do it well, you actually like that, because you know the next five things to watch. And while that's in entertainment—and financial products are a very different space—that’s the bar our customers are expecting us to meet.” * [00:22:45] “As we train our talent, we've put a high bar on explainability of the work they do.”