From Research to Reality: Finding Success in Graduate School

From Athlete to Academic: Roy Shavers' Playbook for Grad School Success

In the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] sits down with Roy Shavers [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrbegreat/], an Academic Success Specialist at the University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu/], for an inspiring conversation about the transformational journey of graduate education. This episode is packed with relatable advice, honest reflections, and the kind of encouragement every current and prospective grad student needs to hear. The Power of Mindset and Determination A core theme throughout the episode is the importance of mindset. Roy Shavers speaks candidly about being a first-generation college student and not growing up seeing college degrees on the wall. Despite academic challenges in his early years and a less-than-stellar ACT score, he was determined not to give up. His athletic background taught him to view every obstacle as something to overcome, treating academics like a competition he was determined to win. This athlete mentality—balancing, persevering, and pushing through adversity—became his blueprint for success in and out of the classroom. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome Imposter syndrome is real, as discussed by Dr. Christopher Lewis at 07:10. Roy Shavers admits to feeling intimidated, especially when surrounded by master's and doctoral students early in his grad school journey. His way of overcoming these feelings? Embracing the challenge, believing in himself, and leaning into the skills that made him successful as a student athlete—perseverance, focus, and the relentless pursuit of personal growth. His story is a valuable reminder that self-doubt is natural, but it can be beaten with the right mindset and support. Mentorship, Balance, and Lifelong Learning Another theme from Roy Shavers's journey is the value of mentorship and networking. He credits supportive professors and mentors who pushed him to believe in himself and helped him navigate graduate school transitions. He also encourages listeners to reach out, ask questions, and not hesitate to contact the authors of interesting articles for real-world insights and career networking (19:55). Balancing school, work, and life responsibilities is tough, but, as Roy Shavers shares (20:36), drawing from past experiences and making time for self-organization can make the impossible possible. Advice for Future Victors If you're thinking about graduate school, Roy Shavers suggests finding a mentor, having patience, setting a plan, and staying resilient. Remember, everyone's path is different, and sometimes the best advice comes from those who've overcome the challenges themselves. Tune in to this episode to hear Roy Shavers's full journey—including how persistence, the right support system, and a lifelong love of learning can make you a victor in grad school. Listen now and take your first step towards becoming the person you want to be! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, I love that you show up every week to be able to learn just a little bit more and to be able to push yourself and help yourself, to be able to work toward those goals that you've set for yourself that are helping you to be able to be the person you want to become. And that's all about you going to graduate school. This podcast is here to help you along this journey. I call it a journey because it is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: Every individual that goes on to graduate school goes on a personal journey themselves that are helping them to. To be able to attain the goals that they've set and are pushing themselves forward. So every week, I love that you show up to be able to learn something just a little bit more, that are going to put some tools in your toolbox and help you to be able to do just that. Every week, I bring you different guests with different experiences, people that have gone to graduate school before you that can give you some hints, some tips, some things that they've learned along the way, whether good or maybe not so good, that they can help you to be able to maneuver through that journey just a little bit better. And today we got another great guest. Roy Shavers is with us, and Roy is an academic success specialist at the University of Michigan, Flint. I work with him closely in a number of different ways at the university, and he's had his own graduate school journey, and he's actually still working in a graduate school journey. We're going to be talking about that journey that he's been on and some of the things that he's learned along the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Roy, thanks so much for being here today. Roy Shavers [00:01:56]: Appreciate it. Glad to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:59]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. And, you know, I always start these conversations with an opportunity to kind of turn the clock back in time. And I want to go back because I know you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University, and as you were going through that experience for yourself, there was a point in time, there was an instance that made you say to yourself, I'm not done. I want to continue and I want to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point. And what was Going through your head. Roy Shavers [00:02:28]: Well, I knew I was going to college, but I didn't grow up seeing degrees on the wall. I talk about this all the time to a lot of the people that I come close to. But my parents, I'm a first gen college student. My parents didn't graduate from a college. My mom went to cosmetology school. My dad was drove public transportation. So my big thing was I wanted to compete on the Division 1 level. Back then I thought I was a basketball player, but my calling was track and field. Roy Shavers [00:03:01]: That's how I got to Eastern Michigan, was through track and field. I reassured it my first year because of grades. Grades and ACT score. My ACT score wasn't that strong. It was, it was pretty bad. But I didn't give up. I had this mentality that I knew that I was going to college. But like I said, I reassured my first year. Roy Shavers [00:03:21]: That put me in a place where I gained a year back. So I graduated within the four years. And my academic advisor at the time was like, what are you going to do? Are you going to go get a second bachelor's or you going to go to grad school? And the young lady that I was dating at the time, I was telling her, I'm going to go get a second bachelor's. You know, like, I, I don't want no graduate degree. And she was telling me like, Roy, that wouldn't make sense. Challenge yourself, put something in front of you that you can, you know, look forward to. So I don't know, I sat back and I thought about it and I said, what's the coolest job that I didn't see somebody doing on a college campus? And they, I thought an academic advisor. I'm like, they talk to students not just about classes, but just about life. Roy Shavers [00:04:06]: I can think back to the guy that was my advisor at the time. And I just talked recently talked to him about a couple of months ago. We talked about everything, current events and all of that stuff. And when she asked me what I wanted to do, my other advisor, I said, I'm going for student affairs, you know, higher education. So I pursued a degree in educational leadership with a student affairs focus. And originally my goal was to work with student athletes. I wanted to work with student athletes. But it started off good. Roy Shavers [00:04:37]: But I got pulled into the student affairs, the higher education enrollment management part of higher education. So this is where I'm at. You know, I've been doing this for the last 10 years working on a college campus. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:53]: And you decided to go to Eastern Michigan University for your master's degree. And you. There are a number of different higher education programs that are out there. Bring me into your mindset of choosing a graduate program for yourself, especially for that first one. I know you've gone beyond that, and we'll talk about that. That too. But for the master's degree that you got, what made you decide that Eastern Michigan University was the right fit for you? Roy Shavers [00:05:16]: Well, I was a student athlete. I went there for my undergrad, and I had to pick whether it's a second bachelor's because I graduated, or I had to pick a graduate degree program. And the advisors there at the time, they made their job seem so cool. So that's why I picked student affairs. Higher education, Educational leadership. Student affairs. That was my focus because I, you know, I wanted to do something that fun on the college campus. I thought being an advisor was fun or running some type of program would. Roy Shavers [00:05:47]: Would, you know, I could see myself doing. So that's when I picked that program. Now, when I got into the program, I don't know if I'm going a little bit deep, but when I got actually into the program, I was, like, scared, because it wasn't just students that was working on a master's. It was students that was working on PhDs that I was. That I was in, you know, classes with. They had to take the same classes that I had to get to get to their goal, you know, which is earning a doctoral degree. So I don't know, being in all some of those classes, I was intimidated because it was like, can't write on this level. I can't. Roy Shavers [00:06:24]: I never even saw myself even being in that space. But I knew, like I said, the mindset that I had once I got to college, oh, I was determined to not give up, and I was gonna pass. Everything that was put in in front of me, I was passing. So that was the mentality that I had. You know, when I started that program at. It was times that I wanted to give up. And it was professors that came into my life that wouldn't let me give up. Like, one of them was Dr. Roy Shavers [00:06:50]: Zamani Gallagher, who always was positive with me, you know, always told me the reason I make. Kept it in my mind the goal. What's the end goal, Roy? And then Another lady was Dr. Tack. She had pushed me when it came to writing. So, I don't know, I built. They helped me build my confidence. When I first started that program, you Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:10]: know, that empowerment imposter syndrome is real, and it's something that every student I think is challenged by as they go through. And as a first generation graduate student, that's definitely something that you don't have other people to turn to outside of people that you meet on campus that might already have a graduate degree, like you said, that are pushing you in different ways. Talk to me about that imposter syndrome. What did you have to do to specifically push yourself past that and get to a point where you were confident in your own abilities to be able to be successful in that journey? Roy Shavers [00:07:40]: I more so just believed in myself, but I, I always looked at every opportunity as is. I looked at it as sports. I don't know, I put that mindset in. It was like I'm competing with myself, but I'm competing with my peers. These people in these classes, you know, that I'm, I'm going to, you know, like I'm learning from them just like they learning from me. But I knew, like I said in the back of my mind, if I quit, I was letting myself down, I was letting my family down. So I don't know, I always had this mindset. Even now today, like it's like going after a doctoral degree. Roy Shavers [00:08:12]: Nobody in my family, my immediate family, has a degree but me, Me and my oldest sister, we got different dads. But when I look at that, it's like that's what I'm pushing for, is to change the dynamic, change the mindset of the people that's in my family, to show them that education ain't just education. It's not just about learning from a, oh, I can do this for a job. It's about learning from a life standpoint. And that's what I don't know, I look at education is like how much I didn't learnt about just life skills and how I've applied it to my life. So I don't know, man, like I'm proud of myself for the most part, you know, is the work and the effort that I put into grinding and getting to where I want to be. I feel like I'm still not where I, where I really want to be at, but I'm pushing towards those goals. I don't know, this is something that I always told myself that going after a doctoral degree was Years ago my 20s, I'm 42, I just had a birthday, but I told myself that this in my 20s, like this is a goal, you know, I might not go for it right after the first Masters, but I'm pursuing and I don't know, this is just where I am and how Confident that I see myself. Roy Shavers [00:09:19]: You know, once I start some, I always have to finish it. I'm never not going to finish what I put my mind to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:26]: And as you've been talking about the fact that you're going to be working on a doctorate degree very soon, you're, you're moving into that program. But the first step that you took was to get a specialist degree, an education specialist degree. And I guess bring me to that point. What made you decide that a specialist degree was what you wanted to do next and which is now leading you into the edd? Roy Shavers [00:09:47]: I know working here we got perks and benefits of working on a college campus. I think some of us don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement on a college campus. But I know that was one of the things in my mind was like, Roy, you don't work on three different campuses and you haven't taken advantage of the tuition reimbursement. But I don't know, when I started here, it was a goal was to go back to school, which was almost three years ago. I told myself that I wanted to go back to school, to work, to pursue a doctoral degree. When I got here, I talked to a couple of different colleagues and they talked about the specialist. It was centered on K through 12, K through 12 administration. And they were like, it's not fit for people that work in higher ed. Roy Shavers [00:10:30]: And I used to always say, well, how isn't it? You know, we work with, we work in education, and if it's K through 12, kids that we do get are coming from they 12th grader, they still learning, you know, I don't know. And I challenged myself. I was like, I can really make this work because I'm working with these same kids, you know, like these same students, they're going to, at some point they're going to reach me if they plan on coming to college. So I just started tying that to, okay, what I do every day. You know, I talk to students, talk to students about their goals and I talk to students about life things. So I just started tying that to what I do and how I could see the transition from K12 to higher ed. And as far as in the middle being that middleman person. So that's how I tie my mindset to going after the specialist. Roy Shavers [00:11:20]: And I plan to do that within the EDD because it's still centered around K12 education. One of my main focuses right now is, I mentioned it before, is being a first generation college student. I'm working on a first generation College student project where, you know, I'm doing some storytelling. So it's like putting people's stories out here, talking about the things that they do and the things that they learned and being able to share those stories with other first gen or other students to inspire them, you know, like, okay, you the first in your family, you know, that's great. But you know, somebody else can use those stories as an inspiration to help them reach their goal. So I don't know, I just love what I do and I love, I don't know, I love education. You know, we never stop learning as far as what we're doing. So that's why I'm pursuing that is that passion to never stop learning. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:10]: Every time that you make a transition into a new degree, there is a transition and you have to figure out for yourself what does it mean for me to be able to be successful in this learning environment. Every school is different, every degree is different, the expectations of faculty are different. And you found success. You got through the master's degree, you've gotten through your specialist degree. Now you're moving into a doctorate degree in education. As you think back to your first degree, your second degree, and you think back to those transitions themselves, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into those programs and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school experience? Roy Shavers [00:12:52]: I'm an athlete. I had to put that mindset, I had to really put that mindset in my head is treat this as I'm running the race. I don't want to lose. You know, like, I feel like if I gave up, I lost. So being an athlete, a lot of people got negative things to say about being an athlete, but being an athlete taught me how to be a student. It taught me how to balance my life not just from an athletic standpoint, but being an a student athlete. So being a student first, you know, I had to go to class in order to be eligible. I had to do study hall, I had to work a part time job. Roy Shavers [00:13:32]: So that mindset is what puts me where I am now. It's like, I want to win, I don't want to lose. So everything that I do it from away, I tie it to work, I tie it to my personal life. I treat it as being an athlete. I'm just trying to win, you know, like I'm, I'm running the race or I'm playing the game, I don't know. I, I joke with students and, and I tell them, I said, today how much you gonna hit, you know, how many points you gonna hit today in, in the game. This is your life. I ain't saying don't treat it like a game, but sometimes we got to play defense. Roy Shavers [00:14:02]: We might have to block a couple shots, you know, from things that goes on in our life. So I treat it like that, like I try to look at my life in different aspects, like of the things that I've done. So when it comes to education, that's how I'm tying everything to. It is, is okay, I'm playing basketball today. Or you might get five points today and you might get five blocks. But don't fall out the game. You know what I mean? Like, falling out the game is being negative. You may be playing hard, but you looking at things in negative, negative aspect. Roy Shavers [00:14:33]: And I, I don't, I try not to do that. So I don't know, I just look at everything from being a athlete. I got that athlete mindset where it's like, I want to win, you know, so that's just that mentality that I have is never giving up, you know, Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:46]: I appreciate that because I think you do have to keep pushing and you have to not give up. I mean, there's going to be times when things get hard, things get challenging, and you have to push through. I love the mentality of the athlete because I think that while not every person is an athlet, the way to think like that as going into graduate school, definitely, if you can think like that and push yourself like you do as an athlete, you definitely are going to win in the, in the end. So I appreciate you sharing that. Now you mentioned the fact that like, you just finished your educational specialist degree and I can see the parallel specifically with your, with your master's degree. Talk to me about the Ed specialist degree because you said, you talked about the fact that you had to really push yourself and push your faculty to be able to allow for you to be able to find those connections. And I think there's going to be other students out there that may find a program that they feel is a very good fit, but they might get some pushback. And like you had to do, they have to advocate for themselves. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: Now that you've finished the ED specialist degree, while it was initially focused on K12 administration, talk to me about how you're utilizing the knowledge that you learned in that degree on a regular basis. Roy Shavers [00:16:02]: Well, you could use some of the tools that they have, like the my school data. You may be working with a student that comes from a different School district that you may not have any information about. You can go through there and look up, okay, this was what this school was about. They may be high performing in English or they may have been low performing. And those are things like you doing your homework on helping the student. Like things that you can look at. Like other things that you can look at. Like I, it was things that I never even heard of because I never worked working. Roy Shavers [00:16:34]: I've never stepped foot inside of K12 administration. So that my school data, one of the projects that I did in one class, I was trying to flip it to doing something within the higher ed realm. And the professor was like, no, I'm challenging you to use my school data. I want you to look up, pick a school district and I want you to do some research on the school district looking at the, my step data, you know, some of the, some of the testing things and, and the English levels and the math levels and where they are and compare and contrast and give me your recommendations. I want you to put your leadership hat on as if you were the, the superintendent of this school district. What would you do? What would you do to try to change the environment here, the learning environment. So it was stuff like that that kind of made me be like, dang, I never really looked at it from that angle. And then a lot of the things that they deal with on a daily bas. Roy Shavers [00:17:33]: Working with young kids, you know, you working with K through 12 is not the higher ed piece. So one of the classes that I really liked was the law class. You know, the law class made you look at some things different because it's like you working with young, young adults, I, I call them young adults, but you're working with teenagers. So the things that they do, like we see all these different things that, that goes on in the school when it comes to cell phones, it comes to things that's happening in that realm. So I had to sit back and say, we just don't. We may make a decision in higher ed one way, but in the K12, you gotta kind of sit back. You can't just make a decision like that because it'll jeopardize a whole bunch of people. You know, it'll jeopardize a whole bunch of students, it jeopardize some of the staff and faculty. Roy Shavers [00:18:20]: So it was like, you have to know the proper steps to take in order to make the right decisions in that area of education. And I don't know, I just, I enjoy learning some of that stuff because you wouldn't look at it from the K12, you wouldn't look at it in the higher ed side, things that you see on the K12 side. So I don't know. It was a good challenge. Even some of the things that they asked us to do, like article critiques. I did an article critique in one class and we had to present on it. And the professor didn't put me up to reaching out to the person that I did the article critique on. And I, I actually reached out to the person that wrote the article and had a whole conversation, kind of like how we doing on this zoom right now? And I asked them different questions and, and this was a part of my presentation. Roy Shavers [00:19:08]: I taught myself how to use Adobe on Premiere Pro and I edited an actual video and that was my presentation. I was looking at doing things a little bit different than from the traditional realm where we use PowerPoint presentation. I said I'm gonna create a video and show how I engaged in conversation. And I think grad school is about networking too. So, you know, it gave me a chance to network with a educator that's out here that's doing research on something that, that I myself looking at down the road. So I don't know. Never be afraid if you listen into this podcast, never be afraid to reach out to somebody that you actually read in the article that's that wrote an article. You see something in the references where you didn't looked at something and you see another article. Roy Shavers [00:19:55]: Reach out to the people if you got questions, you know about it. It's a part of networking, you know, that's part of learning too, you know, so I think they would be happy. The guy was happy to actually sit down and have a conversation with me. So I don't know. I've met another colle that works in higher ed that I know maybe one day I might meet in person at another conference. So I don't know. That's another piece of advice that I could give to somebody that's jumping into the grad school gang. Reach out to some of these people that you reading about, if they still Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]: alive in graduate school, can definitely be challenging, especially as you go through looking at balancing things and balancing life. How did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going through graduate school? Roy Shavers [00:20:36]: Well, the first semester back it was a little rough because I hadn't been in school for a while and towards the end of the semester a lot of things kind of caught up with me. You have a couple of different papers and some assignments due all at the same time. It kind of brought Me back to being a student athlete where it's like, okay, you balancing multiple things and you capable of doing it. So sometimes I have to slow myself down because is that athlete in me, you know, you just always on the move, but I don't know, it brought back that athlete. Okay, you going to practice after you leave practice, what was you doing where you was going to study or you was going to work? I had to block things off the way that I did when I was 20 years old. You know, I had to bring that side of back to me. So I don't know, it was all balance. Once you learn that balance you good when it comes to that. Roy Shavers [00:21:27]: But was it tough? Yes, it was tough. You putting a lot of energy into reading, writing, and then having your own personal life. So I don't know, I just had to find my balance when it comes to time management. I feel like a lot of people can give you a lot of advice on how to use your time, but you the only person that can give yourself advice on what are you actually doing. When we talk about procrastination, you know, you know, what you're supposed to be doing when it comes to actually being a student, preparing for the papers, preparing for the test. So I don't know, it just took me back to that, being an athlete. I always talk about being a student athlete. It took me back to that where you can balance multiple things. Roy Shavers [00:22:09]: You've done it. So I don't know. I always go back to that. That's what's always in my mind. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: As you think back to your graduate school experience, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school? Roy Shavers [00:22:22]: I can't really say. I mean, everybody's experience is gonna be different. I don't know. What I wish I would have done was stuck with my mindset to go straight through, never stop. I had so much momentum on me when I was 24. I think I got my masters at 23, so 24 in my finishing this in my 20s. I wish I would have finished doctoral degree in my 20s, but you can't predict the future and how you do things with your life. I had a kid and all these different things that happened to me in my 20s, and I'm thankful for those things that happened to me. Roy Shavers [00:22:56]: That was what mold me into the person that I am. It got me to kind of slow myself down and start finding myself. So with all the things that happened to me, I feel like it molded me. Even with the time frame stopping after the Masters and getting some work experience. You know, I think that was what one of the advisors recommended me to do, was get some work experience before actually jumping into, to another program so that you can apply some of the things that you learned in the program to what you actually doing for work. So I don't know, it took a. Some of the stuff that I learned over the course of the first Masters that was at Eastern, I was able to start applying that over, over the years from, you know, that first advisor job that I had and working with Trio Student Support Services, some of the student development theories that I like, like I could apply those to the things that I was doing within the program. So it was just about taking your time. Roy Shavers [00:23:54]: Everything will level up to where it's supposed to be at when the time is right. So I always see my, like I said, I always, I've been telling myself like that I could see myself as a director, but right now is not the time. Like I'm still focused on what it is that I want and that's like I'm shooting towards the, you know, doctoral degree. So an opportunity for that to happen will happen at some point. But right now I just, from, from some of the people that I talk to, the mentors that I talk to, they, they tell me, just do the work now, Roy, and it'll show, you know, so that's my main focus right now, is doing the work and letting my work show what I'm capable of for the next opportunity that's put in, in front of me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:37]: And finally, as you think back to your different graduate degrees and the experiences you've had in graduate school, what are some tips other than what you've said already that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Roy Shavers [00:24:51]: You do got to have some type of sense of what it is that you want. It might not happen right right away. If you pursuing a master's in something, at least have some type of plan put in place. You may not have a mentor, but I definitely say get a mentor. The mentor is the number one thing because they can help you along the way to map out things that you can't see for yourself. One of my mentors always told me to. I left Eastern from my first advisor job. He told me that I needed to stay put at the next school that I was at for at least five years because you don't want to be considered a jumper. Roy Shavers [00:25:26]: Like jumping from school to school, it doesn't look good from a resume standpoint. So that's what I did. I stayed put to show some type of commitment, you know, like I'm committed to actually my job and the work that I do. So it's just about being patient. You know, I think the biggest thing is finding patience within yourself and having a plan for what it is that you want to do. So definitely getting a mentor, somebody that you can talk to, whether it's an advisor, whether it's a supervisor, somebody that can help you along the way to see your vision all the way out. So like a coach, Everybody needs a coach. So that's the biggest thing that I take for grad school. Roy Shavers [00:26:06]: You know, you may have an idea, or you may say you want to be a social worker, but it may be something else. You may be a counselor. You know, you may take the counselor route instead of going to social work work route. That's what a mentor and a coach is there to help you along the ways to. To guide you down that pathway. So I say that if you thinking about grad school and you're not all the way, sure, ask questions. Get out here and ask questions to somebody. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:31]: Well, Roy, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not over. You've got a whole nother degree coming, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that plays out and how that helps to mold you and shape you in your next direction. But I really want to say thank you for your time today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best. Roy Shavers [00:26:51]: I appreciate it. No problem. And hopefully we can talk after I finish the doctorate. We can have this conversation again. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:58]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me@FlintGrad OfficeMflint. Eduardo.

Balancing Business and Graduate School: Insights from Theo Ellis

Are you considering graduate school but worried about the challenges ahead? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast is a must-listen, offering valuable perspectives for current and aspiring grad students. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/], Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu/], this episode features a candid conversation with Theo Ellis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/theoellis/], a double graduate degree holder and dynamic entrepreneur. Embracing the Graduate School Journey The episode opens with Dr. Christopher Lewis emphasizing the idea of graduate school as a journey, where everyone—no matter their starting point—can find ways to prepare and succeed. Theo Ellis embodies this ethos, sharing how his love for learning and a pivotal scholarship motivated him to pursue his first master's degree. His second graduate degree was an organic decision, sparked by an advisor's encouragement and the realization he was only a few courses away. The Reality of Transition and Balance Transitioning from undergrad to graduate studies was a significant leap for Theo Ellis. He discusses how the depth and quality of work expected at the graduate level required not only discipline but a true understanding of the material. Theo Ellis also gets real about balancing family, work, and academic obligations. His secret? Rigorous organization, staying on top of the syllabus, and never letting deadlines overwhelm him. The Value of Relationships A major theme is the importance of building relationships. Theo Ellis credits mentors like Dr. Witt and his peers for guidance, support, and lasting friendship. These connections not only enriched his grad school experience but continue to influence his personal and professional life. From Classroom to Business Impact What sets Theo Ellis apart is how he applies classroom knowledge directly to his businesses. He explains how lessons in entrepreneurship, finance, and marketing have empowered him to innovate and expand within the music industry and beyond. The episode is packed with practical examples of using graduate education in real life. Mindset Shifts and Advice for Aspiring Grads Reflecting back, Theo Ellis wishes he'd started his academic journey sooner and underscores the mindset shifts essential for graduate success—higher standards, deeper understanding, and unwavering discipline. His advice is clear: don't procrastinate, stay organized, and make the most of your resources. Listen and Be Inspired Whether you're thinking about graduate school or already on the path, listen to this inspiring episode of Victors in Grad School. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Theo Ellis deliver both motivation and actionable strategies to help you find success in your own journey. Ready for more? Listen to the full episode and embark on your own path to becoming a victor in grad school! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love that you come back every week to be able to work on achieving the goals that you've set for yourself. I call this a journey because you are on a journey. Every person that is going and thinking about graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey. No matter if you are at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about it, or if you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: No matter where you are in this path, there are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself even better and to help you to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why this show exists. This podcast was created to be able to help you to find success in in that graduate school journey sooner. And we do that through giving you opportunities to learn from other people every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think about graduate school in a little bit different way through the experiences that they had through their graduate school experience. And today we got another great guest. Theo Ellis is with us today. And Theo is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: He has two graduate degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint, and a really excited to have him here to share some of his own journey with you. Theo, thanks so much for being here today. Theo Ellis [00:01:37]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Luce. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here and I want to turn the clock back in time. So we're going to start by turning the clock back. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, you said, yes, I've got to keep going. I've got to keep moving forward. I know I need more education to be able to do what I want to do. Bring me back to that point. And what was going through your head? Theo Ellis [00:02:03]: Well, for me, it was very organic, actually, because through the process of obtaining my undergrad degree, you know, I was genuinely enjoying learning and the growth that I was experiencing in that. And so at one point, I learned about the Maize and Blue Scholar Award and I set that as my goal. Not just to have that accolade, but also because that it does come with the additional funding to be used towards the higher education and the master's degree. And so that's kind of how I started my journey towards the first master's degree. The second one I originally did not have any intention of getting. Honestly, I really didn't until I believe I was talking with an advisor. And the advisor said, well, you know, you only need to take, I think it was six more classes or something like this, and then you'll have the second one. And I said, well, it's only six more classes. Theo Ellis [00:02:50]: Why not? So that's how that one came. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:52]: Completely understand. And sometimes things organically show up like that for you and there's opportunities that are set in front of you. Usually I ask, how did you choose the University of Michigan Flint for your graduate degrees? But you kind of answered that in the sense that it was organic. And with the additional funding that you got, that seems to have made sense for you to be able to continue on with the same university and to continue on toward getting that first and then that second graduate degree. In every experience, when you transition into a new degree, there's some transition that happens. Going from undergrad to grad. You are going to be taught in different ways, you're going to be challenged in different ways. There's different expectations that faculty have of you as a student. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Talk to me about that transition for you and going from undergrad into your graduate work. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into the program to be successful, and what did you have to do as you were going through the program to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey? Theo Ellis [00:03:55]: Well, the biggest transition that I noticed right off the get go was not just the level and quality of work that's expected of you, but also the depth of it. You know, you go from writing papers that are maybe five pages, something like this, to now we need 10, 12. A lot more sources are required. Again, just a lot more depth and level of understanding of the material is required of you. And that challenge was fun to me. I embraced it. Right. I didn't run from it. Theo Ellis [00:04:22]: I didn't know, oh my goodness, what am I going to do here? Okay, this is what we got to do today. Let's go do that. And so I really enjoyed the journey itself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:29]: You know, one of the things that I wanted to delve a little bit into with you is balance, because you're a busy guy. And for anyone that has never seen Theo's LinkedIn page, when you look at Theo's LinkedIn page, you have to ask the question, how the heck are you doing everything that you're doing? Because he is involved with about five different businesses and leading the charge on all of these businesses. And he was going to school while he was doing that as well. So I guess I want to know, and I want to, I want to get some of your take on balance, how did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going to graduate school? Theo Ellis [00:05:08]: It was grueling at times. I'm not going to pretend like it wasn't. There were times it was very challenging. However, the biggest key to all of it is just organization, staying on top. First day of class, you're getting your syllabus. So you already know the plan. You already know, okay, this is due on this day. This is what I got to do this day. Theo Ellis [00:05:24]: And just approaching it a little bit at a time, not letting it all overwhelming you or waiting until the last minute and then everything's due at once. That's when you run into problems. As long as you stick to your syllabus, if you can stay ahead of it, you know, read ahead in a chapter or two when you get some free time or whatnot. But just staying disciplined and organized was the biggest factor to my success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:44]: One of the other things that I'm always interested in is that as you go through graduate school, there's people that you can relate to, there's people that you can connect with, and there's relationships that you're going to be building along the way. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build with faculty, with peers, and how were they impactful in the graduate school journey that you went on? Theo Ellis [00:06:06]: First and foremost, one of the first relationships for me that was formed was with faculty. Dr. Witt, he very quickly became mentor for me, helped guide me, and, you know, in the beginning with my undergrad, I wasn't sure if I was going to go on to pursue higher education. At one time, I had even considered attending law school. After this, and through various conversations with Dr. Wipp, he really helped guide the path that I was on and also became a great friend in the process. And then as I continued on higher degrees, he was still there to advise and help. And he helped oversee my research projects. Theo Ellis [00:06:39]: And he just, anytime I needed something or just someone to talk to or bounce ideas around, he was always there. So very thankful to Dr. Witt. Then on a peer basis, I mean, I have peers in mind that we are still connected to this day. We hang out in the summertime and barbecue and just genuine friendships. There through people that were pursuing their master's degrees as well and had a passion for business as well. And so I'm grateful for those because, you know, they're all wonderful people and I would not have met none of them had I not gone through this process. What I can tell you is this. Theo Ellis [00:07:08]: When I first started thinking about it, remember I'm a non traditional student. And so coming back to school after many years, when I first started to even consider this for, even for the undergrad, do I really want to go back to school at this age, you know, 40 some, whatever. Do I really, you know, can I, you know, do I, do I have the capacity? I don't know. You know, let's find out. And then do I want to take on the debt? Do I want to take on this debt? Do I really need another bill right now? In the end, what made my decision was this, that's okay. If I were to spend, go get a brand new truck or something, 40, 50,000, maybe $60,000 truck, I would have no problem going, getting that new vehicle, signing the papers and having a new vehicle. So what's the difference if I spend that 40, 50,000 on a degree, something that's going to better me, something that I'll have for the rest of my life, the truck's eventually going to die, this degree won't. And so I said, you know what? If I can take on debt for a new vehicle, I can take on debt to better myself. Theo Ellis [00:07:58]: And that was what made my decision. And then in the end it worked out that, you know, I was very fortunate that I had minimal debt because of the way that I performed and the opportunities that were presented and the way of merit scholarships or other grants, etc. But I still have debt and going into the master's program, still have debt. You know, I pay my student loans now, but it is all worth it. I don't regret any of it. I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I had while I was at U of M Flint and also the education that I gained. I went there seeking a better understanding of business. I had already been running my business prior to that, and I said, I want to level up on my business acumen. Theo Ellis [00:08:34]: I gained that and then some. So it worked out for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:37]: I guess one of the questions that I have is, as you have gone through both of these programs, you already mentioned that you run your own business. And I'm going to say businesses, because you do have a number of businesses that you are running. Talk to me about how you are taking what you learned in both of your graduate degrees and using that on a daily basis. Theo Ellis [00:08:56]: Well, currently I'm working on expanding my business. You know, the core of my business that like that you see on LinkedIn and that ProSound Media, what we do is it's in the music industry. So we help artists companies license their music for tv, film and commercials, distribute their music globally. So you know, get it on Spotify, Apple Music for them. We handle their music publishing which is, you know, on the, on the copyright side again, that's all part of the licensing. So a lot of the administrative stuff, the behind the scenes stuff is what we help artists and labels with. Recently I've been expanding my business with the boom in AI. How can I utilize this for my company? And so what I've done is developed a couple products that artists and businesses can use. Theo Ellis [00:09:37]: One of them is called Orbit. And what Orbit does is it basically gets eliminates busy work. You know, all of us have busy work. You go away for the weekend, you come to work Monday morning, you may spend two hours cleaning out your email before you actually start to do some work, right? That's busy work. And so I developed AI that'll clean your email out for you and basically bring the important things to the forefront. Kind of like having your own personal assistant there, right? So through the process of developing these different AI platforms that I've been working on, I we got to figure out what's going to be the mvp. You know, that's something I learned at U of M Flint. You know, the entrepreneurial side of it, where's our break even? What's it going to cost to run this thing? You know, at the end of the day, what's going to be the net present value, right? These are the things that I learned at U of M Flint. Theo Ellis [00:10:21]: These are things that I did not know prior to coming there. And I use them all on a daily basis as I'm learning and figuring out because I have three or four different ones that I'm working on right now. Okay, which one are we going to go with? Which markets are we going to launch them in? Understanding the marketing side of it and the importance of that, right? Because you can have a great idea, but if you're targeting the wrong audience, the not going to matter. And then there is taking all of the knowledge that I learned in business school, coupling that, you know, different frameworks that I've learned, you know, whether it's Porter's forces or the Harvard, the business canvas model, taking those things, applying it to the knowledge I have with the music industry. Okay. And how can I take both of these things and merge them together to help people in the music industry? And what I came up with was the business of music, which literally applies strategy, core business principles, and mixes in the things you need to know, the knowledge you need to know of the music industry because it is its own niche industry and it has its own nuances that are very particular to it that don't exist in other industries. So we came up with the book, and none of that would have been possible, or at least maybe not to the scale that it is if not for the education that I gained at U of M. Flynn, talk to me Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:28]: about a defining moment for you as you were going through that graduate education that might have been, let's say, the turning point, or that defining moment, as I'd mentioned, that shape your academic or professional journey. Theo Ellis [00:11:40]: That's a very difficult question for me to answer. And the reason being is because I went not not only full time, but full year round. I didn't do fall, winter. I did fall, winter, spring, summer, fall, winter, spring, summer. I did that for four years straight. And at the end of four years, I had three degrees. So it all just happened so quickly. And then at the end, we're done. Theo Ellis [00:12:00]: That's it. I mean, I remember when I first, you know, graduated for the last time and I. And I was. I didn't know what to do. I was so used to having an assignment due or something that, you know, what do I do now? I got free time, you know, so. So it's very difficult for me to have a defining moment because I was just so in it and just focused on achieving the goals and getting it done right, that I really didn't even have time to sit back and absorb it until I was finally done. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:22]: What's something that you wish that someone had told you before starting graduate school Theo Ellis [00:12:26]: to do it sooner? I had been contemplating going back to school for a few years, you know, and you know, for me it was really Covid was what the turning point was. I said, you know what, it's now or never. And so 21 was the first year that I started back with my undergrad, but definitely wish that somebody would have encouraged me to get involved sooner and get this done sooner. I think I'd have been so much better for it and probably further ahead than I am now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:48]: And I guess as you think about your graduate school experience and you think about the things that you learned in that graduate school experience, what would you say are some mindset shifts that you had to make for yourself to, to find success in graduate school. Theo Ellis [00:13:04]: The quality of work that's expected. You can sometimes I guess get by if you want in undergrad with how you frame your answers. But that's not going to fly at the graduate level. Like you really have to understand the work. And so that was a mind shift for me, I think that's probably the biggest one is just understanding that the level and quality of work that is expected of you daily, day in and day out. And I mean one of my last classes I took, we had to turn in like 27 page paper. That's a lot, you know, it's a lot. And for it to be cohesive because you can start first three pages, you're writing one thing and you can kind of drift, right? So to keep it all cohesive and make sure that from start to finish you're on that one topic, I mean that's a challenge. Theo Ellis [00:13:45]: But again, I enjoyed every bit of it and I'm grateful for all my teachers that I had there. Dr. Greg Lawrence, I had the privilege of participating in the study abroad trip to Japan. That was, that was a formative experience. That was life changing, that was amazing. And seeing how they do business over there, learned some good things there as well as just the culture of Japan and for you yourself even, you know, you were instrumental in helping guide me when we launched the Graduate Students of Color Student club. You know, that which did not exist previously and you were very instrumental in that and so I thank you for that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: Now as you look back at your own graduate school experience and you think about the degrees that you got if you were to do it all over again, would you choose the same programs or path and why or why not? Theo Ellis [00:14:25]: I would change one thing potentially anyway. Potentially change it. I don't know that I 100% would for sure. Business MBA, that's staying right? Like that's not going anywhere. I just have a passion for business, entrepreneurship, I love it. And so that would never change. Potentially for my mslod, maybe instead of doing the joint MBA mslod, I would do the MBA and computer science one just because of where we're at in this day and age with technology and AI and all this, that definitely would be beneficial. I'm writing these AI programs with the limited Python knowledge that I have. Theo Ellis [00:14:56]: That's been for the most part self taught. But had I had some classes in that, probably have this app done a lot sooner so. But you know, again it's all part of the journey. And you know, that's one of the things also that going to University of Michigan Flint taught me was that really there's not anything that I can't teach myself because a lot of this stuff is online. And so you do have the interaction with the teachers and this and that, but a lot of it you're having to read the book and kind of self taught here and so that doing that and understanding that, yeah, you can do that and actually retain it and understand it. And if you have questions, the teachers are there, etc. But when I got done, I said, man, there's not nothing I can't teach myself. So I'm grateful for that as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:34]: And then finally, as you think back again on your graduate education and you think of other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for business or some other completely different area, what are some tips that you might others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Theo Ellis [00:15:50]: Well, the first thing is don't put it up, don't think about it, don't waste time. Secondly, stay disciplined, stay focused. Most importantly, stay organized. You know that discipline and that that organization is what helps keep the success, you know, following the syllabus. You know, pay attention to the syllabus. It's not just a piece of paper to ignore. It literally has everything you need to know contained within it. And if you just follow that, you'll get the perfect grade. Theo Ellis [00:16:12]: Every time it's going to tell you. It gives you the syllabus, in my opinion, gives you the cheat code. Here's what you need to do, Just follow it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:18]: Well, Theo, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best as you are working through the app and all of the other things that you're working on to be able to move forward your businesses and I truly wish you all the best. Theo Ellis [00:16:33]: Thank you sir. It's been my pleasure. And thank you again for having me. I genuinely appreciate, appreciate the opportunity. Speaker D [00:16:37]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

Finding Success and Balance in Graduate School with Micah Helzerman

Are you contemplating graduate school, currently in the midst of your program, or simply curious about what it takes to thrive in this next phase of education? The Victors in Grad School podcast delivers personal stories, hard-won lessons, and actionable advice from students, alumni, and experts. In the latest episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] sits down with Micah Helzerman [https://www.linkedin.com/in/micah-helzerman-5bb901347/], a master's student in Artificial Intelligence [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/artificial-intelligence-ms/] at the University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu], to discuss the unique journey that is graduate school. Embracing the Graduate School Journey A major theme in this episode is the concept of graduate education as a multifaceted journey. As Dr. Christopher Lewis reminds listeners, grad school is not just about applying and getting accepted—it's about ongoing growth, self-discovery, and working toward long-term goals. Micah Helzerman shares how his decision to continue beyond his undergraduate degree was fueled both by inspiration from research opportunities and a desire to confront the challenging job market. Self-Motivation and Building Structure Transitioning from undergrad to grad school is a leap in both responsibility and independence. Micah Helzerman reveals how graduate coursework is more self-driven and project-based, requiring students to take control of their schedules and motivation. Developing a structured routine, utilizing tools like calendars, and consistently reflecting on goals become keys to success. If you're wondering how to boost your own productivity and avoid burnout, Micah Helzerman's honest insights about finding balance between work, study, and personal life are a must-listen. Research, Relevance, and Future Goals Another standout aspect of the episode is the discussion of research. Micah Helzerman's current work focuses on how AI large language models interact with math problems, exploring their impact on education and student learning. He emphasizes the importance of engaging with current research early and often—a valuable tip for anyone planning a path in academia or research-heavy fields. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Choosing the Right Program Graduate school can be daunting, and feelings of self-doubt are common. Micah Helzerman discusses imposter syndrome and how he works to focus on his unique strengths, rather than comparisons to others (00:14:22). He also stresses the importance of finding a program—and a community—that feels supportive and aligned with your goals. Are you ready to be inspired, gain clarity, and learn actionable tips from those who've walked the path? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" for honest conversations and real-world advice to help you navigate your graduate journey. Don't miss this episode! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello and welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week. I love that you come back every week to be able to learn, to grow, to work on this journey that you're on. And it is a journey I always, whenever I'm talking to graduate students, I try to impart in every student that I talk to. That graduate school is not one thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Right? It's not going to be, you know, just applying. It's not just, you know, getting in. It's it. I mean, there is a whole journey that goes along with this. From the moment you figure out in your head that you say, yes, I want to do this, to the moment that you apply, to the moment you get accepted, to the moment that you're going through that, that program and you're looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and you're working toward the goals that you set for yourself. You're on a journey that you can start working on today. And that's why this show exists. This show exists to be able to help you and provide you with some, some. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: Some ideas, some thoughts, some for. Some perspectives and for. And it offers you an opportunity to learn from others that have gone before you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences to be able to provide you with an. To learn from them in the journey that they've been on. And today we got another great guest. Micah Helzerman is with us today. And Micah is a master's student in the Artificial Intelligence program at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own experiences in the journey that he's been on and for him to share that with us. Micah, thanks so much for being here today. Micah Helzerman [00:02:02]: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I'm excited to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I guess I want to turn the clock back a few years because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and you got a bachelor's degree in computer science. And at some point, at some point in that journey, you made a decision. You said, I'm not done. I'm going to continue on. And you decided, I'm going to go on this, this path, this journey toward graduate school. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that graduate school was right for you at that time? Micah Helzerman [00:02:36]: Yeah, I would have to say, to be honest, it was actually late in my senior year when I realized that I wanted to go back and complete my master's degree. I was a bit intimidated by the job market. I had heard from other peers who'd graduated before me that it was getting quite difficult to get jobs in computer science, at least compared to like five, 10 years prior. And this was about six months before agentic AI was becoming the new thing. We have things like Copilot or Quad code that can do much of the work that young software developers are doing upon graduation. And so a lot of the roles are either being filled by like senior developers or AI. And that kind of intimidated me. But another reason why I wanted to go back and get a master's was I began doing research my senior year as well. Micah Helzerman [00:03:27]: I had two really great faculty that I did research with. The first one was Dr. Mayhem. It was my first year up project and I learned about it through the course I was taking with them. And in the second semester of my senior year, I began a UROP project with Dr. Wilson, who is my current research advisor. I was actually talking about an idea I had with another professor. And thankfully that professor was able to get us both in contact with each other so that we could work on research together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:57]: Now, I know you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And as you said, you were in your, your graduate, you were in your senior year. You made that decision. You wanted to continue on to graduate school. Now you decided to stay at the University of Michigan Flint, go into a newer program in artificial intelligence. There are other artificial intelligence programs out there. And I guess bring me to that decision making process for yourself. And what made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you at that time? Micah Helzerman [00:04:32]: Yeah, I knew a lot of reasons this was the right place for me. For one, I did want to stay close to home with my family. And the University of Michigan Flint kind of feels like a second home to me at this point. I remember even like elementary school, high school, I went on different field trips to the campus. My two older siblings, they completed their undergraduate degree two years and three years before I completed mine. And I just knew I wanted to come back here. Also, I knew many of the faculty who I would be taking courses with. I've even taken courses with my research advisor. Micah Helzerman [00:05:04]: And so I knew I Have these strong relations with these faculty members, the strong connection to Flint, to the university. I wanted to continue pursuing my education here because I knew great things would come from it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: So going from being an undergraduate student to a graduate student is a transition. There are different expectations, different ways of thinking, different perspectives that you have to be able to bring into what you're learning inside and outside the classroom. And in those transitions, I know that there are things that you have to do to be able to prepare yourself, but also to be able to make that transition well. So talk to me about as you transitioned into that graduate program, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the entire graduate school journey that you've been on? Micah Helzerman [00:05:56]: Yeah, I would say the biggest difference between undergrad and grad school is everything feels a lot more self motivated. So that comes to like doing coursework, also like doing my research, everything is self motivated. The courses are mostly project based. And in the master's, which was separate from my undergrad, there were some project courses in my undergrad, but it was mostly like attending lectures and doing homework assignments. Whereas in my grad program so far I think all of my classes have had semester long projects where you continuously build on them. I think one reason why that is the case is because many of the students who are pursuing the master's in AI program, they come from different backgrounds. So a lot of them actually don't come from computing backgrounds. And so having the courses be more project based helps them use their different skills from their different backgrounds that they come from. Micah Helzerman [00:06:48]: And yeah, so putting like the self motivation is like really key. I've had to get a more rigorous schedule compared to undergrad. I felt like undergrad I was mostly just not winging it, but just I was just barely getting by, I would say. And that wasn't satisfactory for me to achieve my goals in grad school. So I have gotten more rigorous schedule. I've started doing regular exercise and trying to find like a good work. Life balance is very important. A lot of grad students and different programs. Micah Helzerman [00:07:17]: Mental health is more important I would say in grad school. And it kind of ties into this self motivation where if you want to get the most out of grad school, you have to put in a lot of time which, which does take like a lot of energy, a lot of effort and finding the correct balance. It does take some time to adjust compared to undergrad school and something I'm still figuring out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:37]: I would say, so talk to me about that balance. Because you said that it's really important to find that balance and you're still working on it yourself. So talk to me about currently, how have you found that balance of school, work, family, personal responsibilities while in graduate school? What have you done to get yourself to where you are today and what do you feel like you still need to do to be able to find that ultimate balance for yourself? Micah Helzerman [00:07:59]: Yeah, I would, I would say the one thing I did is I started using Google Calendar and like putting all my events, everything I want to do in there. I'll like take notes of what I want to do each day, each week. Kind of like keep reviewing what I need to be doing, see where I'm at, what I need to do to get to where I want to be. And yeah, like I mentioned, making sure I get the exercise I need each week, making sure I see my friends, I do things with them, and then also spending time with my family, just making sure that I'm not overworking myself. Because I am a person who would sit down and start working on something and keep working on it six hours later and not realize it's 3am and that I have to go back to sleep. So like setting like reminders, calendars, taking notes on myself, how I'm feeling each day, I found has helped a lot. And to to continue improving, I would say each semester is different. You know, you take different courses, different schedule. Micah Helzerman [00:08:54]: So schedules do change. So one thing I can do to improve is to keep getting better at adapting to different schedules. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:01]: Talk to me about the research that you're working on. I know that you said that you've been working on a research project with a faculty member at the university. And research is definitely one thing that is unique when you go to graduate school, that you have an opportunity to be able to delve deeper into something that not only you become passionate about, but others are passionate about as well. And that can offer you some different perspective on the learning that happen that's happening inside and outside the classroom. So talk to me about that. What is that research allowed for you to do and what has it allowed for you to learn as you're going through and preparing for your future? Micah Helzerman [00:09:40]: Yeah, so my current research project is basically studying how large language models interact with math problems at varying difficulty levels. This came from a lot of different motivations. During my undergrad, I did two years of math tutoring and I noticed a lot of the students were using AI. They're using ChatGPT or Gemini to help them study for math. And a lot of, a lot of that can be very useful if it's used correctly. But I noticed it's not really well known how well AI can help assist students learning math. You know, is it just doing their homework for them or is it actually helping to enhance their learning experience outside the classroom? And so that was something I wanted to explore with Dr. Wilson. Micah Helzerman [00:10:24]: So I began learning about large language models, how they work, and studying various papers on large language models solving math questions. And so my work led to a. My first paper, which was recently accepted to acl, which I will present in San Diego in July, which I'm excited for. And it kind of built on my background of math, basically that I wanted to understand how large language models are doing these math questions. And I also want to make sure AI is being used in a way that is helping students and not harming them. We've seen a lot of different papers, a lot of like, news headlines even about how generative AI can lead to this taking away of learning experience by just doing all the work for students and not letting them learn. And that's something I want to help overcome for future students. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:15]: Now you've got about a year left in your program to be able to finish off your master's degree. And as you look into the future and you look at where you are today and where you want to be at the end of the program, talk to me about what are you planning for the next year and what are you hoping to be able to take out of this, which will lead you toward the future that you want. Micah Helzerman [00:11:36]: Yeah, so my second year, I'm actually going to begin the Master's thesis. I hope to continue doing my research and build it into a full thesis. And I guess my goal of that is just to continue building on my research, make it better. And I do hope to apply to a PhD program in the future. Not sure where it will be. I need to do my homework on that. But I do know the University of Michigan Flint, they do have a PhD program. Two of my lab mates are actually part of it. Micah Helzerman [00:12:06]: And it seems like a very successful program. And I might consider reapplying to the University of Michigan Flint for that once I complete my Master's. I am also taking some other user experience classes with Dr. Ann Jonas, which I am going to be excited for because much of my research so far has been more quantitative and just studying large language models, not really studying the human side. And I do want to do some more research on the human side to Get a better understanding of how people are interacting with these large language model systems and how we can improve their experience with using them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: As you think back to your graduate school experience thus far, what's some something that you wish that someone had told you before starting graduate school? Micah Helzerman [00:12:49]: I think the one thing I wish I did more during my undergrad was reading research papers because it is something that is so important in grad school, at least as someone who is doing research, although it is also important for the grad level courses. So like a lot of the courses there is quite a bit of overlap with what like the current research is looking at, especially in AI. And so having this higher understanding of how AI large language models work from reading research papers would have helped me even more with understanding the curriculum, understanding what I can do, and it really would have helped propel my class projects even further. A lot of these class projects I've seen other students do, they can really basically turn into little startups. They put a lot of time and energy into it and the tools and programs that they create is very like beneficial to many people and it could lead to startups. And if that was something I had known, I probably would have like better prepared myself in undergrad to be able to get the full value out of my grad program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Sometimes I hear from graduate students that they have gone as they go through graduate school, that they hit that proverbial wall of not feeling like they belong, that they are an imposter in some ways, that they face that imposter syndrome that people talk about or sometimes have self doubt as they're going through graduate itself. Talk to me about that for yourself and how you may have had to deal with that for yourself. Micah Helzerman [00:14:22]: Yeah, imposter syndrome is definitely a big issue in graduate school and ties back into the mental health of grad students. I, I've personally haven't dealt with it very much, but sometimes in class I do feel like I feel different from the other students. Like some of them are older, like returning after many years in industry, which it does feel like they have a lot more skills than I do, that I should have learned more in my undergrad or I should have gotten my master's degree later. But to try and overcome that, I realized my strengths. I realized how much tutoring I've done, how much research I've done during my senior year undergrad, trying to like realize my skills and building on my skills when I can in order to, from my perspective, put myself in a position similar to the other master's students. So that I feel like I fit in. But I guess not comparing myself to others is also very important because we are all different people. We all have different backgrounds, different skills, different gaps between our skills. Micah Helzerman [00:15:21]: And yeah, just focusing on yourself, proving one day at a time, one week at a time, is very important to find success in grad school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:30]: And finally, as you look back at your graduate education thus far, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education beyond what you've already said that would help them find success sooner? Micah Helzerman [00:15:41]: Yeah, other than finding the correct balance, I guess, making sure you're at the right grad school. So, like, I. I decided I want to go to University of Michigan Flint because I have this strong connection with the faculty. It's close to home, but I know that's not the case for everyone, especially for international students. So going out online, going out on social media, for example, seeing which universities have a really strong social media presence, finding different clubs and organizations that you would feel like you belong to, those are impactful, I would say, in maintaining success. Because in order to be successful in grad school, you do need a strong support system. And I think a lot of that does come from the university you're attending. So I think doing your research, doing your homework on which schools, which programs you want to apply to, will be very key to finding success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:29]: Well, Mike, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not over and you've got definitely more things that you're going to be learning over the next year, but I am really excited to be able to see where this year takes you. And I appreciate you spending some time with us today to share what you've learned thus far. And I wish you all the best. Micah Helzerman [00:16:51]: Yes, thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:52]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

From First-Gen Student to PA: Dee Schwalm's Unconventional Grad School Journey

Are you contemplating graduate school or facing doubts about the next step on your academic journey? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School #podcast is a must-listen for anyone craving a candid, inspiring, and deeply personal look at what it really takes to find success in higher education and beyond. In this episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] welcomes Dee Schwalm [https://www.linkedin.com/in/deeanneschwalm/], a three-time University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu/] graduate, whose journey exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and dedication. Her story isn't one of a straight line to success but rather a curvy, non-traditional path filled with pivotal moments and conscious choices. Key Themes 1. The Value of a Nonlinear Journey Dee Schwalm opens up about her beginnings as a first-generation college student who hadn't always planned on higher education. Her candid recount of starting at community college, dropping out, and finding her calling after an injury in physical therapy reminds us that success stories often start from moments of uncertainty and unexpected experiences. 2. Embracing Change and Lifelong Learning Not content to rest after earning her Doctorate in Physical Therapy [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physical-therapy-entry-level-dpt/], Dee Schwalm returned to the classroom—14 years later—to become a Physician Assistant [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physician-assistant-ms/]. Her drive stemmed from a desire to help fill the urgent healthcare gap and her own curiosity about the medical side of patient care. Her advice: it's never too late to make a change if you feel called to something new. 3. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome Both Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dee Schwalm discuss the very real feeling of imposter syndrome that plagues many graduate students. Dee Schwalm shares powerful strategies for tackling self-doubt—suggesting that confronting what triggers these feelings can help you learn and grow. 4. Balancing Family and Ambition For listeners juggling parenthood and academia, this episode is a goldmine of wisdom. Dee Schwalm details how she structured her time, involved her daughters in her educational journey, and used "failures" as teachable moments for her family. Her pragmatic tips on scheduling, grace, and perseverance apply to anyone feeling stretched between multiple commitments. Tune In for Inspiration Whether you're a prospective grad student, a parent returning to school, or anyone doubting your own path, this episode offers a heartfelt dose of encouragement. Dee Schwalm's journey reminds us all: it's not where you start, but how you keep showing up, adapting, and pushing forward that truly counts. Listen to "Victors in Grad School" and let Dee's story ignite your own next step! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you show up, you're coming back, you're here to learn, and to be able to take that next step, that next step in your journey toward graduate school. And I say it's a journey because it really is a journey. Every person, every person that's either thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey, a journey of learning, a journey of discovery. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: There is a lot of things you're going to be going through, learning, growing, and becoming a different person throughout that experience. That's why this show exists. This show is here to help you on that journey, to help you to find success in the graduate school journey that you're on. No matter if you're a going to physical therapy school, physician assistant school, business school, law school, doesn't matter. There are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself for this journey, to help yourself during the journey and beyond. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective, give you some perspective on what this journey holds for you, but also some things that you might be wanting to think about, some things you might be able to put into play as you're going through this experience. And today we got another great guest. Dee Schwalm is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: And Dee is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. She actually has three degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint. And we'll talk about that journey of going from an undergraduate student there to getting a degree in physical therapy. But that wasn't enough. She then came back after about 14 years and to become a physician assistant and just graduated from the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint as well. So we're going to talk about that journey that she's been been on, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to Hugh. Dee, thanks so much for being here today. Dee Schwalm [00:02:11]: Thank you for having me. This is exciting. I was honored to be asked. So this is really exciting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I guess I want to go back in time. I want to turn the clock Back I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, that, that journey of getting that Bachelor of Science degree in human biology, you made a decision, you made a decision to go to, to get a doctorate in physical therapy. Bring me back to that moment where you said to yourself, yep, this is the reason, this is what I'm doing. And what was going through your head. Dee Schwalm [00:02:46]: Yeah. So my path has been very curvy and not very traditional. I will say that 100%. I'm going to rewind a little bit. So in high school, I was never the person, I'm a first generation college graduate. I was never the person who definitely planned to go to college. My parents didn't really talk about it. We didn't go visit colleges and do the traditional, traditional things. Dee Schwalm [00:03:09]: They wanted me to have a respectable job that I would be able to take care of myself. So that was important. College wasn't out of the question, but it certainly wasn't something I had to do, which I apparently love to do because I keep going back to college. But so I started after high school. I didn't know if I was going to go. And I got the MEEP Michigan Merit Award Scholarship. And this one counselor at Swartz Creek really encouraged me. I remember her chasing me down the hall and was like, deanne, Deanne, you got the scholarship, you have to go to college. Dee Schwalm [00:03:37]: And I thought, man, this 2,500 doll dollars, which was like a million dollars in 1999. So she said, you can use it for college. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll go to Mott College. That's close by. So I went and checked it out. And then my parents went and they checked it out. They thought it was good. And I started in psychology and then I moved to graphic design. Dee Schwalm [00:03:56]: And I was sitting in a room with a computer alone all the time. And that's when I realized I need something with people like, this isn't going to work for me. I can't just be locked away. So I ended up dropping out of school because I was paying for it myself. I was waitressing, I had an apartment. I dropped out of school and it was like maybe two semesters. I ended up hurting my knee one day while I was on a run, end up in physical therapy. And it was probably the fourth or fifth visit of pt and I was looking at this PT buzzing around the room teaching people about science, which happened to be my favorite subject. Dee Schwalm [00:04:27]: She was positive she was uplifting, she was busy. There was exercise. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm in love. I have to do this. I have to become a physical therapist. So the next week I figured out, how am I going to transfer classes to U of M Flint. I went and checked it out. I'll say for sure. Dee Schwalm [00:04:44]: The counselors were really inviting and made me feel comfortable at U of M Flint because to me, that felt like a huge campus. I wasn't somebody who was used to that. So I started at U of M Flint, got my degree in human biology and just chased down the dream. I got a list from the counselor and the advisors, what do I need to get into the DPT program? And it was a week by week. How am I getting closer to that? How am I getting closer to that? And I applied at U of M. Flint only, which I know in hindsight sounds insane, but that's where I was going to go. That's what it. I just knew. Dee Schwalm [00:05:17]: I just knew that's what it was going to happen. So I ended up in the PT program and it was wonderful. It's been a wonderful career. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:24]: You went through this graduate school experience and you about 14 years later decided that you weren't done. And many people at the end of a physical therapy degree would say, I'm good, I'm going to do my career. I'm going to stay doing this for the career because it is a terminal degree. But you said, nope, I want to do something different or I want to add on to the degree. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide that you needed to flip the strip? Dee Schwalm [00:05:54]: It definitely was not something that happened initially. When graduating as a pt, I loved working. I still work as a pt. I work prn. I loved it. I was working in outpatient. I worked in sports med. I worked on the weekends to pay off student loans at nursing homes and subacute rehab. Dee Schwalm [00:06:11]: I mean, I worked, I loved it. I love the career. I mean, where else can you have a career where you enter someone, you enter the room with someone and they trust you? You might be their last resort. They're trusting you to not only make a plan of care with them, try to figure out their goals, what they're trying to get back to, but also trust you to physically carry them, if they fall, move them across the room. I mean, it's a very reward starting career. I would say the transition to PA happened as maybe in the last five years, six years working with PAs, and I was very interested in what they did. I was very interested in the medicine side of it. And I was working at a subacute rehab with patients that were COVID positive. Dee Schwalm [00:06:54]: You know, they had multiple traumas, a motor vehicle accident, different things. And I remember hearing Amy York from PT school, which I have heard her say this over and over. You know, by the year 2030, there's expected to be over 80 million people in the United States over the age of 65. And over the last 14 years, I've heard her give this stat in my head over and over. And it's been like kind of a countdown, like, oh, we're getting closer to 2030. There's all these people that are going to need more health care. Are we ready? Are we ready? And then kind of circling back, going, working in the subacute and with the patients and just seeing that we needed more physicians and clinicians in Michigan. Currently we're 800 clinicians short in Michigan and also approaching this number where we're going to have more baby boomers reaching this age. Dee Schwalm [00:07:40]: I was like, who's going to do this? Who's going to be the family medicine doctors? Oh, man. Well, it's not me because I took my science courses seven plus years ago. They imploded. You can't use them again after seven years. I can't go back to college. Not for me. I wonder who will do that. And I kind of tossed it around in my head and I felt pulled to be a pa. Dee Schwalm [00:07:59]: I wondered, you know, maybe I should do that. And I told my husband about it one night and he was like, look it up. You should do that. Look it up. And I was like, oh, I felt foolish looking it up. And I looked of course at the U of M. Flint website because that's where I go to college. Okay. Dee Schwalm [00:08:13]: Didn't look at any other websites. I know I'm a loyalist. I looked it up and I. I will never forget seeing the seven year science course waiver. When I saw that, I was like, oh, there's a spot for me. It's like emotional. But I saw that and I was like, wow, there's a spot for me. So I just chased it. Dee Schwalm [00:08:28]: It was like that moment on two weeks later, I was taking the only class I needed, which was M Biology. I took it at Mott, which when I walked in, the teacher was like, are you here to audit my class? Like, no, I'm just a student. I'm just old sir. So I went back to Mott two days a week. Was still working as a pt. I was getting my microbiology class out of the way. And I was going to apply to PA School. My boss and PT everybody encouraged me. Dee Schwalm [00:08:50]: They said, do it. They gave me the time off. Everybody thought it was great. I applied. I wrote my entire. Looking back, this is kind of. Kind of wild. But the Caspa. Dee Schwalm [00:09:00]: I wrote the entire thing with U of M Flint written in it because it knew it was the only place I was going to apply. I would not give that advice to a student. But that is my path. And I just chased it down. And before I knew it, here I am, and it's over. Like that. Like a fever dream just went by. Gone. Dee Schwalm [00:09:16]: I guess that sums it up. I don't know. Does that make any sense? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]: It does. And, you know, one of the things that I think is interesting is that I think what you say, what you're saying here is that you can go into a career and think it's the perfect one for you, but then as life continues, you continue to be inspired, you continue to be intrigued, and you see other ways in which you can impact the world. Now, you pushed yourself. Not everybody would do that. And you pushed yourself to take that leap. And I applaud you for that. Because I think, like I said, not everybody would do that. Sometimes we get complacent, and we're like, we're okay. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:53]: I'm good. But you kind of said to yourself, I want to be better, and I want to impact the world in a different way. And I applaud you for that. Dee Schwalm [00:10:00]: Through this process, I've had some people ask me, and I just really want to, like, make sure I clarify it while I'm here. Well, oh, you left PT because you didn't like it, or it wasn't a good job or you couldn't find a job. You can find a job in PT. You can find a job in 15 minutes in PT. I mean, they are needing people. I felt kind of bad leaving the world of PT because that's needed, too. It's an excellent career. It's a rewarding job. Dee Schwalm [00:10:22]: There's a. A lot of versatility. I just felt like it was kind of hard to come to terms with, but I was like, no, I'm not turning my back on pt. I'm not leaving pt. I'm taking it with me. I'm going to use everything I learned as a PT still and help patients. So I just really felt like it was important because some people, I think, along the way were confused, like, oh, you'd rather be a pa? I'm like, no, I'm also a pa. And both things so that's really exciting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: Now, one of the things that I think that I'm interested in asking about is this, is that every time that you transition into a new type of education, there's new expectations, there's new ways of learning. And you went from your undergraduate degree into physical therapy. That's one transition where you have to make that transition from being an undergraduate student to a physical therapy student. And then, as I said, you go, you work. Fourteen years later, you're transitioning back to school and being educated in another new way into becoming a physician assistant. So talk to me about in those transitions, those transitions from your Bachelor's to pt, from PT to work and then back to pa, what are some of the things that you had to do at the beginning to set yourself up for success? And what are some of the things that you had to do throughout the entire journey to maintain that success, throughout the entire experience? Dee Schwalm [00:11:45]: I would say when you are leaving undergrad and entering a graduate program, there are portions of undergrad that can be rogue memorization. You can, in a way, from high school and some of undergrad, be trained and memorize, regurgitate the information and repeat. And I realized once I got into the PT program, I was a good student in undergrad, I got good grades, you know, But I realized now, oh, I'm in a graduate program. It's about understanding the information on a 360 degree axis. You have to know everything about this information. There is no more memorization. It's dancing with this information, becoming familiar with it, and also being able to teach it to someone else to ensure that you actually understand the information. So that was something I learned going into graduate school the first time. Dee Schwalm [00:12:39]: I also learned that, you know, a graduate program, the DPT program, it's consuming. Don't make plans, okay? You're going to be busy. You are busy from the very beginning to the very end. And I think I was kind of ready for that in my mindset going back to school. I mean, there was some things that were different in PT school. Get your Scantron and take your test now. Everything's on the computer. I don't use social media. Dee Schwalm [00:13:03]: I have a LinkedIn finally. You know, I haven't used social media since 2012. I just kind of stepped away from it. So I was behind. I didn't know how to navigate these new learning platforms. And I just totally was honest and told other students, I have no idea how to do this. Would one of you be willing to help me? I will buy you lunch. I will do Anything, I'll stay after. Dee Schwalm [00:13:25]: And Rachel Bauer took me under her wing and taught me how to use my computer. You know, all I was using it for was PT programs to write my notes at work, search articles on PubMed. I wasn't using it like these students who grew up through Covid and their undergrad using their computer. So that was a big adjustment, I'd say. When I got to the PA program, I would tell somebody going into grad school, treat it like boot camp. You are going to give this 100%, expect it to take all of your free time. If you get any extra free time, you should be joyful about that. I really treated it like this is my full time job. Dee Schwalm [00:13:58]: Of course, when I got home, I was mom, so I was full time job all over again. But just really understanding that this is not going to be easy. You have the spot. This is your shot. Give it 100%. Someone else wanted your seat. Someone else worked really hard for your seat. So they could be there and just take advantage of the opportunity and just really focus. Dee Schwalm [00:14:20]: You need to set a schedule. That was really hard for me as a mom because while I was with my family, my husband and my children, my two daughters, I felt like, oh no, I should be studying all this material. I should be studying in the first month. I did not have this figured out at all. I was feeling guilt there. And then I'd go to school or be studying and feel like I should be with my family. Oh no. And so I was realizing, like, I can't focus in either place. Dee Schwalm [00:14:43]: If I set a schedule, it gives me freedom. So while I'm in each place, I give a hundred percent at each place. And I would set it down to the hour sometimes. And my girls knew. Oh, they'd come in, it's 6:30, we're gonna eat dinner. Then you're gonna study for 45 minutes and then we're gonna play Barbies for 30 minutes. I mean, they knew, knew. They knew what's happening. Dee Schwalm [00:15:01]: So setting a schedule, that is huge. Giving yourself grace, even the best students, which I'm not. You're gonna fail at something, you're gonna mess up in grad school and you're gonna sit in your chair and go, oh, no, they accidentally let me in. This spot was meant for someone else. Oh, I'm country mouse in the city. What am I doing here? And it's not true. They know what they're doing. They know why they chose you. Dee Schwalm [00:15:24]: They saw potential in you. And you just have to trust the process. That's what they always told us. Trust the process. You know, take it week by week. I'm going full mom on you guys right now. Mom advice. Take it week by week. Dee Schwalm [00:15:37]: Make a schedule, Give yourself some grace and just really just keep at it. Try to exercise, try to eat nutritious foods. Be positive. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]: Now, I said, you just completed your PA Degree. Now that you've completed your degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you're about to embark upon? Dee Schwalm [00:15:58]: So starting the program, I had this thought, like, am I really going to be able to do this? Am I really going to be able to do this and do it well? It's not that long of a time, you know, the didactic portion, and then there's like a year of clinicals. Are they going to really be able to transform me even with my clinical experience? So, I mean, I can't imagine how somebody who's 24, I just think they're amazing. These young people going into grad school, they're superheroes. Watching them transform has been so amazing. But the U of M Flint PA program, you have a rigorous didactic portion where you are learning a lot and they're making sure you understand the information. You're not left hanging out to dry. You're meeting with your advisor twice a semester or more. That's just the baseline. Dee Schwalm [00:16:44]: And then when you have your clinicals, I feel really prepared because they were in all kinds of settings. You know, I had two family medicine, one month each. So two months of family medicine. I had two months of internal medicine. I was at a level one trauma at Corwell Grand Rapids. I said, hey, I'll go over there. It's only an hour, 10 minutes. Like, let's go. Dee Schwalm [00:17:02]: I loved that. I got a clinical at the Behavioral Health Urgent Care in Flint. I had women's health. I had pediatrics at Mott Children's Health center in Flint. That was a great experience. I worked in neurosurgery at Hurley Hospital. I mean, I was doing a craniectomy, and I thought, who am I right now? This, like, helping? Of course I wasn't doing it. But they prepare you. Dee Schwalm [00:17:24]: You have to trust the process and know that when you get to the finish line, you're going to feel confident, you're going to feel ready, and you really could go into any area and learn and grow. You know, it's just great. It's. I feel prepared, I feel excited. For me, it's family medicine and internal medicine that really, I'm the most excited about. And I just want to first take a nap and then I want to start now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:48]: Talk to me about you transitioned from one professional career into now another. And as you said, you're building upon the one to the next. And as you go through these type of programs, whether it be physical therapy, physician assistant, they are rigorous programs. Both of these programs are full time programs. You're putting yourself out there, you're jumping in with both feet and you get pushed from day one. And there are definitely times in programs like these, but also any graduate program where you may feel some imposter syndrome, you may, like you just said, say, I don't know if I can do this. Talk to me about that. As you transition from being a physical therapist to jumping back in as a student, to becoming a physician assistant. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:31]: Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during either graduate studies? And how did you handle it? Dee Schwalm [00:18:37]: I absolutely did. And I think every student does and will and maybe should feel imposter syndrome. Maybe it keeps you honest, maybe it keeps you hard working. Maybe I felt it. And I think when you come face to face with imposter syndrome, you have a couple decisions you can make. What am I going to do about it? I just going to shrink down and shrink away from this, this, and I don't like the way this feels, so I'm just not going to move forward with this. Or are you going to say, what is it that is making me feel imposter syndrome? Is it because I don't actually know the material? Maybe I know it, but I don't know how to explain it. So I think I don't know it and really take a step back and think, why do I have this feeling? And then try to crush it. Dee Schwalm [00:19:18]: Try to learn more, practice more. I honestly felt it was strange going back to school because I was older than some of my professors, those young ladies. I didn't really feel at first a connection with the students and I didn't really feel I was at the level of the professors, obviously. So I was just kind of my own little Switzerland. And that made me feel an imposter syndrome almost everywhere I went, like, I'm not one of you and I'm not one of you. But then like the first week I decided this is my spot, this is for me, this is my path. And I'm not gonna spend time and energy feeling this way. I am here to learn just like everyone else. Dee Schwalm [00:19:54]: There was some internal pressure. The professors never put pressure on me to know more than anyone else or Single out. Like, it wasn't like that. I was just one of the group, which I really appreciated because I really needed that. I would say I felt the internal pressure that, am I going to be expected to know everything? Am I going to be expected to know everything faster? Am I supposed to catch on to this right away? And that really wasn't the case. They gave me the same opportunity to learn as everyone else. And that really helped. Once I realized that, it kind of helped me crush that. Dee Schwalm [00:20:29]: That imposter syndrome feeling. And then also just realizing, like, this is my spot. It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about this. Oh, if they think it's strange or it was just really, this is my spot, and I'm going to take it. I'm going to chase this down. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]: And some graduate students like yourself are going through graduate school while they're balancing being a parent. They have young families. They're trying to better themselves while they're also being mom, dad, et cetera. I know you have two young daughters yourself, and you were going through that PA program while you were being mom, and you talked about that a little bit. Talk to me about the message you're trying to share with your kids about following your passions and your. And your dreams. And how do you talk to them about that? Dee Schwalm [00:21:14]: Well, they were totally supportive of me going back to school. My husband was totally supportive, which I feel very lucky. At first, when I was starting the program, I didn't realize. I mean, I always talked about it with him, but I'd say involving them in it made it more special for them. Every time after a test, it was, it's test day. You know, Mom's gonna study even more over the next week, but we're all gonna celebrate on Friday. And I remember, like, the first month, like, if I didn't do well on a test, I almost felt like I was letting them down. And I remember not telling him one time, like, oh, my gosh, I didn't do as well on this test as I thought I was gonna do. Dee Schwalm [00:21:52]: And they saw me studying, would they then be, like, discouraged? And I don't know when it clicked, but I thought, no, I want to teach them how to be successful and work hard, but I also want to teach them what it's like when you fall on your face. And so I told them that didn't work out. And so you get to watch how I'm going to behave when something doesn't work out. Do I give up? Do I keep going? Do I work harder? Do I give myself some Grace and thinking about how they were watching me made me be more positive because it's wiring them for how do I respond when I don't succeed and I don't know what path they'll choose. Maybe they'll choose college, maybe they won't, I don't know. But I want them, whatever they do, to be able to fall on their face and go, that's all right, I got a lot left and get right back up. So that was important to me. That was huge. Dee Schwalm [00:22:39]: And just involving them and you know, okay, it's the end of the semester, we're going to save up and go to a hotel for a night or two and just try to reward them because they make sacrifices to too. Even though they weren't saying it, they were making sacrifices. Even though I'm sitting next to him on the couch studying with my headphones on, I'm still not as engaging as I would have been if I had him off. So I understood that would try to make time for him and go for walks and how was your day? I read this thing, the 21 minute rule where you're supposed to try to do seven minutes of quality time in the morning and afternoon and evening with your children and just look at them and just listen. And I think just trying to be engaging with them and keep them involved in your, your, in your path of grad school will make everybody in the family feel like they achieved something. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: And as you think back to either of the graduate school experiences that you've gone through, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started either physical therapy or before you started the PA program? Dee Schwalm [00:23:41]: That it was a good idea that, that I was going to pray every day because I did. So that was very helpful. I wish somebody would have told me that because that was a huge help for me. I don't know that I would have been successful without prayer. I think. I don't know if there's something specific someone can tell you, just that it's going to be time consuming. But it will, it will pass and it will go by quickly. Even though it feels some weeks like it's dragging out, it will go by quickly. Dee Schwalm [00:24:12]: You know, you will get to the finish line and even though you don't feel prepared by the time you get to the finish line, you will. You have to just trust that you're going to continue growing, not going to walk in and be the boss. You're not going to walk in and be a pt. You're not going to walk in and be a pa. I'm not going to walk into my new job and be great at it. I need to find somewhere where they can teach me and I can learn. And that's just, just be okay with that. Be okay with that. Dee Schwalm [00:24:40]: I think that's. I wish somebody would have told Young D that before she got into PT school the first time. So. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: And as you look back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in the sciences, in business, in some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Dee Schwalm [00:25:08]: Are you focused? Do you have a written out, bulleted list? What are you going to do to get towards this goal this week, this month? And I love to cross off a list. I might write make the list so I can cross off, make the list, make a list, write it out, Keep focused. Because you could easily get lost in time and months go by and you haven't moved forward. Everything might not work out just as you planned. And it might send you in a different direction. You might not get into the graduate program that you wanted to, but maybe that opens another door. You just have to keep your mind open and keep working towards your own success. And you're the only person who writes your story. Dee Schwalm [00:25:47]: It doesn't matter where you're from. It doesn't matter if your family went to college. It doesn't matter what your past was. You know, if you want to write your story and you want college in it, then chase after it. Then make it happen. Find a way, change jobs, keep working at it until you find a way. Because it's probably your calling. It's probably what you're supposed to do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Well, Dee, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not done. It'd be interesting to see where you land here after you get that next position. I know you just passed your boards. Congratulations. And I'm really excited to be able to see what the future has in store for you. But I really, truly appreciate your time and I wish you the best. Dee Schwalm [00:26:31]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms [https://umflint.edu/graduateprograms] to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to do be a Victor in Grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgradoffice@umflint.Edu [Flintgradoffice@umflint.Edu].

How Grad School Sparked Two Startups: Michael McGetrick's Story

Graduate school is often described as a journey—full of challenges, opportunities, and transformative experiences. In this episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] sits down with Michael McGetrick [https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelmcgetrick/], the co-founder of Spark451, to explore what it really takes to succeed in graduate education and beyond. Whether you're at the start of your academic path, mid-way through your studies, or reflecting on your professional future, you'll find Michael's story both inspiring and relatable. A Story of Growth, Change, and Connecting the Dots From his early days as an English and Studio Art major at Brooklyn College, Michael McGetrick recognized the value of pairing creativity with analytical thinking. The transition from traditional design to the digital age led him to realize the profound business impact of his work—a realization that inspired him to pursue graduate studies. By earning a Master's in Management at NYU Tandon School of Engineering, he intentionally sought to bridge creativity, data, and technology, setting the stage for a career at the intersection of these worlds. But the learning didn't stop there. Motivated by a desire for further growth and transformation, Michael McGetrick returned to earn an MBA. He credits this decision—and the people he met along the way—as a catalyst for founding successful companies like Spark451 and Element451. For Michael McGetrick, graduate school was about more than coursework; it was about building connections, embracing new challenges, and transforming into a leader capable of navigating today's fast-changing technological landscape. Balancing Life, Work, and Study One of the episode's resonant themes is balance. Michael McGetrick candidly discusses the realities of juggling academics, a demanding career, and family responsibilities. Whether it was studying alongside his wife or burning the midnight oil after his children went to bed, he emphasizes the importance of commitment, open communication, and finding excitement in the field you choose. Advice for Prospective Graduate Students If you're contemplating graduate school, Michael McGetrick urges you to stay curious, engage deeply with your professors and peers, and draw inspiration from cutting-edge ideas in your discipline. Graduate education, he notes, can truly be a lever for personal and professional transformation. Ready to be inspired by Michael's full journey and advice? Listen to the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" and take the next step on your own graduate school adventure! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about graduate school and maybe it's the right time, maybe it's not. Maybe you've put in that first application, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school no matter where you are. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: It is truly a journey because there are things that you can do along the way to be able to prepare yourself, but also to find success in that journey that you'll be on. Where you start may not be where you end up in regards to the through line of graduate school and into the careers that you want to go into, but that's why this podcast is here. This podcast is here to help you to be able to start seeing things in different ways, for you to be able to learn new things and to be able to see how others have been able to find success in their own journeys. That's why every week I bring you someone new individuals that have had graduate school experiences that may be like yours, but maybe very, very different than yours as well. The ultimate goal here is that you have an opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, and to take something out of every episode, whether it's one thing, whether it's 10 things. I want you to be able to have some tools for your toolbox that'll help you to be able to find success sooner. Today we got another great guest. Michael McGetrick is with us today and Michael is the co founder of Spark451. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: It is a company that works in higher education, working with different universities in higher education. We'll talk a little bit about that today, too, about how his own graduate school led him to what he's doing today. But I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share some of his own journey with you. Michael, thanks so much for being here today. Michael McGetrick [00:02:07]: Chris, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is a topic that is very close to my heart. So excited for this conversation and to share some of my experience with your audience. So thank you so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm going to turn the clock back in time because I want to go way back. I want to go all the way back to when you were in that undergraduate space. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at Brooklyn College. You got a bachelor's degree in English and studio art and then you ended up leaving, going off and. But you continued your education in a number of different ways, whether it was through a formal graduate degree or other educational opportunities that allowed for you to be able to grow and learn. I wanted you to take me back to your days at Brooklyn College and talk to me about what lit that spark of continuing education and what made you decide when you first decided that you wanted to go and take that next step, take that next step in your education beyond the bachelor's that you wanted to do that. Michael McGetrick [00:03:10]: Well, it's a fairly interesting story. You've nailed correctly my history. I did go to Brooklyn College as a commuter. I majored in English. And did you Art with a focus on graphic design, which were two, I would say complimentary majors. To be able to communicate really well with the written word as well as using graphics and visuals. And that was like a nice complimentary skill set. A lot of, a lot of the world was changing at the time from manual paste ups. Michael McGetrick [00:03:41]: If anyone listening to this could have pictured and imagine there was. There was a time when any like communication that was put together was done with razor blades and glue and they would put paste up, you know, words and typography and paste up photos next to each other. Of course now it's done all with computer and it was transitioning literally at that moment when I was doing that work. So as much as the world is had multiple transition points, that was one of the big ones. And so with that developing skill, I was able to be walked into an ad agency in New York and to the studio by my professor, Professor Richard Navin. And he said, oh, this is McG, he's really good, you should hire him. And they hired me on the spot. And that was like a really nice thing for a professor to do for me and got me started in my career literally that way. Michael McGetrick [00:04:31]: So I spent quite a bit of time growing and learning. Advertising and technology was changing and certainly the web took off and websites were a big part of the work that I was doing. And I had this realization that being first focused on the craft design, storytelling, user experience. But over time I noticed something important, that the work I was doing wasn't just creative, it was really, really directly influencing Business outcomes, campaigns that sometimes would affect sales or if it was for a university, affect enrollments, websites that affected conversion rates, the sign decisions that impacted the revenue for the organizations that I was working with. And so that realization really shifted my perspective and I became less interested in just executing the work and more interested in understanding the systems that were underneath it, how the decisions were made, how these organizations were growing, and, you know, how data and technology, which were kind of like mysterious things to me but were becoming more tangible as I was using them, and how they shape the strategy of an organization. And that's really what led me to graduate school. To answer your question, I made this intentional decision to study management, but within an engineering school. I wanted to surround myself with a more quantitative, systems oriented approach to business because that's the kind of work I was doing, doing E commerce websites, selling things on the web, connecting to inventory systems. Michael McGetrick [00:05:59]: It wasn't just about leaving creativity behind, it was pairing it with something more analytical, with a lot of thinking and innovation behind it. And ultimately that combination really defines what I do today and my work in higher education, marketing, enrollment strategy. I'm constantly sitting on that intersection of creativity, data and technology. So whether it's building some digital campaigns, looking at student behavior, mapping out student journeys, or now working with AI driven engagement, you know, the goal is always the same, that I want creative thinking and measurable outcomes. I want those two things to intersect at all times. So in a lot of ways, graduate school gave me the tools to move upstream in the value chain, not just to create the work, but to help shape the strategy behind it. And that whole experience has been incredibly valuable, especially now as we go through another technological revolution where AI is reshaping how the institutions I work with connect with their customers, connect with their students. And I think that going forward from a graduate school perspective, there's going to be a lot of value for the listeners. Michael McGetrick [00:07:06]: Think about how they might want to bridge different interests of theirs. Creativity, technology, business thinking. You know, the people who can connect those things together in the AI age are the ones who are really going to be able to drive some impact. So I think it's an interesting story that's kind of my, my big picture of what drove me there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:22]: So talk to me a bit about. You're in New York, there's a lot of universities in the New York area. You ended up deciding to go to NYU Tandon School of Engineering, as you said, focusing on looking at management, but through a bit more of a technological lens. And I'm sure there were Other programs you probably could have chosen along the way. Talk to me about the process that you went through when you made that decision to go and get that first master's degree in management. What made you decide on nyu? Michael McGetrick [00:07:54]: Yeah, so I think I saw Steve Jobs give that commencement speech at Stanford about connecting the dots. And he basically laid out the story. It's, you know, he. He studied calligraphy at Reed College, which led him to value typography to be great on the Mac. And other things happened in his life that led to the path that led to Apple. And so I started thinking of, like, you know, hey, I've got sort of this. This technology movement that's happening, and I'm dealing bases and like, learning it on the fly and not really sure everything that's happening contextually with it and working with engineers and developers and business people. And so I said, you know, I feel like I'm on the technology side of business here. Michael McGetrick [00:08:38]: And so that's where I want to approach my graduate education. I think I need to be on the technology side of business. So I looked around and some schools have great business programs and some have great technology programs. And I said, I. I want a comb of both. And that's where a engineering school that had a management department was very attractive to me. And the fact that you can study with engineers was a big part of it. But I will say there was one thing that gave me pause, right? It's like, did I belong? I think a lot of your listeners might have that question, do I belong here? And also, I was coming back after being out of school for maybe eight years. Michael McGetrick [00:09:17]: And so I had left all my study habits behind. I had forgotten how to solve for X with math. And like, literally, I'm like, when started taking courses, had to, like, get some tutorials on algebra and. And lead everything leading up to calculus to reawaken my mind to remember the high school math I had taken. So those questions of will I belong in this organization? Will I belong in this school? They came up and, you know, ultimately I think, you know, you can find your place wherever you might wind up. You discover that you do belong if you put in the work and people appreciate that and. And a community gets formed. So I did wind up in the right place. Michael McGetrick [00:09:55]: And I think it worked out very well for me. And I apprec. Experience I had there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: And you talked about the fact that it was about eight years from the point in which you got your bachelor's. It went to getting that master's degree, and then almost another Another five years down the road from there, you decided to go back again to get another Master's degree, also from nyu. And not everybody decides to make that choice to continue getting another degree after they get two degrees. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that getting an MBA on top of your Ms. In was something that would help you to move further forward? Michael McGetrick [00:10:34]: Yeah, so I think that was sort of an existential moment. I was at a point in my career where I felt like I needed to take another leap. I was kind of doing the same thing for a while, running an agency and like kind of remaining in the same spot. It was going very well. But what was the next thing I wanted to hit career wise. So for me, I look to higher education for, as a transformation, a transformer, a catalyst. Right. I say, okay, like you want to become something new, you need to have different inputs. Michael McGetrick [00:11:08]: So for me, the MBA was an attractive program for a couple of reasons. First, it just so happened that if you had a Master's in management, they would transfer a certain number of credits into the MBA program, which was a very flexible, nice offering that they had. And second, it was a real kind of transformational time. Social media was taking off again, another technological revolution taking place. So there was good timing there, all the Web 2.0 stuff happening. So there was a convergence of factors. And then just the. There were a few professors there that I had become friendly with that were running the program and I just knew I wanted to be there with them. Michael McGetrick [00:11:50]: So all these things aligned to say, hey, this is a great idea. Let's, let's go into the MBA program at the NYU School of Engineering and see what happens. And if I were to continue, I'd say it was incredibly transformational. Once again, I happen to be in school with, with some really talented individuals in the program, people who are doing incredible things in their day to day work. It tended to be people who were a little bit older, like average age of 30 plus. And, and everybody was a successful professional in their own right. And so I got to meet and do projects with some great people and I took a course that was very transformational, a course in entrepreneurship with this professor named Bruce Niswander. And he was the head of the incubator at nyu and he was responsible for launching all sorts of companies. Michael McGetrick [00:12:42]: So he wasn't just a scholar, but he was an applied researcher, an applied professor, and he really practiced what he preached. So he had us create companies and come up with cash flow statements and he made it very tangible and real. And every part of the entrepreneurship process exposed to us from a person who practiced it. I happened to meet a classmate and become very close with him, a software engine engineer. His name was Artist Kadu. And we became really close and we had done a project together and we sort of, sort of say, hey, you know, we ever decided to start a company, we should do it together. And so that was sort of like the beginning of the idea of what eventually became Spark451, which is the company I founded with him and another NYU engineering grad named Steve Kersh. And it started in that classroom, you know, really from a vision of mutual ideas. Michael McGetrick [00:13:35]: Artis was a software engineer, and he had lots of ideas about higher education software, and I had ideas about higher education marketing. And Steve was higher education enrollment expert. And the three of us converged and formulated the idea to start Spark 51. And it was purely from that graduate experience that startup became a viable entity and led to another startup named element451, which is also an extremely successful company, and that artists eventually spun off and became the CEO of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:05]: So talk to me a little bit about what you learned in the program. You just talked about the connections that you made and how those connections led to two different companies that spun off from that education and those connections that you built in that education. And now that you look at the degrees that you did receive for yourself and you think back to what you learned in those degrees, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received prepared you for the work that you are still doing on a day to day basis? Michael McGetrick [00:14:39]: So I heard a great quote once that said, students learn from what they think and what they do, and only from what they think and what they do. And so the graduation I received, it had a lot of great subject matters that converged. But the thing that was transformational for me was I was purely liberal arts leading up to that points, right. I thought any problem could be solved by more messaging, more creativity, more marketing, more advertising. And I realized that there was so much to the equation by working in the field, but now actually sort of understanding it. And the course that really did it for me was managerial economics. The idea that you can model the future, right? And you can model any particular system in the world and create inputs that lead to outputs. And so you kind of start to connect the dots that any kind of business system has a whole series of inputs, and we learned mathematical equations from modeling them. Michael McGetrick [00:15:40]: And so it kind of brought all these disparate systems together and, and created this new shift in My mind and thinking that, yeah, you know, you can, you can manage these very large things by thinking about them from a system perspective, from a model perspective, and you can break them down into individual components and try to optimize them. And that became my, my way of thinking about managing organizations and, and managing systems and managing very complex projects that they're, you know, there are series of inputs and outputs and you can manage those inputs individually, you can delegate them individually, and that's the way large organizations work and trying to optimize them. All of the necessary data that has to come into those equations and all the statistical analysis that can be. Be applied across them and you learn these things across different classes in quantitative analysis and, and statistics. So like, I had this whole new tool set that was available to me to make me a much more effective professional. And these programs, I give them credit for transforming me, like literally changing who I was in the world to a new person. You can change someone or you can transform them. And I think the most valuable graduate programs create that sense of transformation that I. Michael McGetrick [00:17:02]: New person coming out of this. Maybe not a new person to the people that love you and your family and your, you know, your spouse, but certainly a new person as you show up in, in the world professionally. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: Just talked about your spouse or your family. And as you go through graduate school, there's a lot of balance that has to happen for you to be able to be successful as a student. But you're also wearing many hats as a professional, personally, with your family, friends, or others. Talk to me about balance for yourself. And how did you find that balance as you were going through graduate school that allowed for you to be able to find the success that you wanted in the experience that you went through? Michael McGetrick [00:17:44]: Yeah, well, I'm very glad you asked that. I have sort of a couple of different perspectives there. The first degree, I was a married man with no kids yet, so I felt like I was able to balance that by sitting at the table at night doing my reading with my wife next to me and going through the problems. Very large problem sets, sometimes operations management. You'd have like many, many pages of equations to solve and just like literally sharing with her what I was reading and going through and said Billy Joel song, tell her about it. That was sort of my, my approach to putting in time with her while actually doing studying, just making sure that she was involved in knowing what I was going through and what I was learning. And we'd have interesting conversations around it. And so it was fun. Michael McGetrick [00:18:31]: It's very fond Memory of those times in our first apart and going through large textbooks of manager economics and operations management. And then later when I got the MBA program, I had two children at the time and so that became even more difficult. But it was a matter of commitment to all the above and just you didn't want to do anything in half measures, right? So you want it to be continue your professional output, handle your work very well, your full time job, but also still be a great parent and still do excellent work in your MBA program and go all out. So that was my commitment to just go all out in all three. So cut back in a little sleep, Chris. But hit every project really hard. Fit, fit in everything I could. Putting in some late nights after the kids go to sleep to, to get it done. Michael McGetrick [00:19:16]: And just that commitment that you were building towards something that was leading toward a better future and better for these kids and for your spouse. So it was just a full commitment to it all and just, you know, maybe sharing that idea with your spouse that this is something you're committed to and you're going to give it your best on all fronts and if you fall on one of them, so be it. You'll make it on the next week and give it your best shot all the way through. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:41]: Earlier you'd mentioned that when you went to graduate school the first time, it had been eight years. It was five years after that when you went to get that second master's degree. And whenever I talk to individuals about graduate school, there is a transition. There's a transition going from one, one type of degree to another type of degree, going from bachelor's to master's. You went from a very different type of bachelor's degree into a master's degree in a completely different type of area. And there is a transition that you go through in from one degree to the next and understanding expectations and learning what you need to do to be able to be successful. Take me back and talk to me a little bit about those things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school and figuring out the, just that beginning part of it, but also as you were going through those graduate school experiences, what you had to do to again find success as you were going through that journey. Michael McGetrick [00:20:35]: Yeah, reflecting back on it, it was a fairly rough transition in the first semester, just getting back into reading and assignments and, and as I mentioned before, doing things mathematically, solving, solving math problems again. Ah, I thought, I put this aside and thought I got past all this, but here I am again doing it. So yeah, that was a fairly rough transition and certainly I needed to get back on the path. And the other was, it was a new vocabulary. And I, you know, whatever, whatever area of study you pursue, there's always going to be that set of vocabulary that you need to become comfortable with. And so I think the, the program did a great job by forcing us to make multiple presentations to the class. So you had to prepare, you had to deliver the presentation, use the words, talk about it, use the vocabulary. And so, so after that initial, rough start of getting in and dealing with this new set of vocabulary, and again, a lot of the things were engineering project management, for example, the engineers seem to have a much better handle on it than I did and, and was taught in a very engineering type way and, and taught in the context of construction and civil engineering projects, which were completely foreign to me. Michael McGetrick [00:21:54]: But you dig in, you ask questions, you work in teams, you engage your classmates. And, and I think that's another part of the graduate experience that enriches your experiences, just working with diverse teams and groups of people who have different experiences and share that so you can learn as much from your classmates as you can from your professors. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:15]: Speaking of professors, I know that you also are an adjunct faculty member at a couple different institutions and you've taught classes along the way. So you're interacting with students at different points in their own careers and talking to them about the journeys that they're on. Talk to me about the learning that you have there and the conversations that you've had with students. And what do you tell students now as they may come to you and talk to you about graduate school or future education for themselves? Michael McGetrick [00:22:44]: First of all, teaching as an adjunct was something that I started out doing to make some extra money to help with the mortgage payments, to help with the rent. And I've continued to do it to this day because it's become a, you know, a passion project. Right. Like I think most adjuncts at some of these professional schools are, you know, just do it because they love the experience, they love working with students, and they love the type of interaction and engagement that we get and sharing our professional experience with the next generation. And that's what it's become for me. So, you know, I think of graduate education as, on a couple of ways when I'm, when I'm advising students. Like, I think first that if you're going to go right after undergrad, like you've had all these different variety of courses you've had to take, you might have a core curriculum at your College, you may have your major, you may have a second major, you may have a minor. So you have all these really different types of courses along with your major. Michael McGetrick [00:23:39]: And as you become a senior from junior into senior year, you start really understanding that vocabulary. You're starting to really get into the groove of that particular field. And so you have this incredible momentum that you could carry directly into a graduate program that will lead to your success in that graduate program. So I think that's one advantage of going into a master's program right out of undergrad is like you're just ear in the groove, you'll get it done on, you'll accelerate your learning and you can just sort of truly become a master of that field. And that's one way of looking at it. The other is I did appreciate for business education, I think you really should hold off a couple years and work for a few years. If you're going to get a master's in business or an mba, I think it's much more valuable to go out and get a few years of experience and then really you'll appreciate and apply the learning much more rapidly if you have some business context, a few years of experience. So that's why the best MBA program programs require that. Michael McGetrick [00:24:36]: In addition, they want to, they want to have better starting salaries for their graduates, you know, self serving in that. But I think it's, it served the students well to just have that contextual business experience. And then finally I think graduate education can be that transformative experience to change you from one thing to another. And if you're looking for a change in career, if you're looking to enter a different field, if you felt like your undergraduate major was something that isn't going to connect you directly to a career, I think a master's program can be that catalyst to connect you to a whole new career. And there are so many programs that do that. So no matter what your undergraduate program is, if you feel you wasted your money, if you feel like you wasted your time, you can find a graduate program out there that will connect you into a lucrative, high paying career. The, the possibilities are infinite and out there. So definitely think about graduate education as that, that lever to trans that career switch, if you will. Michael McGetrick [00:25:35]: No doubt about it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:35]: And I guess finally as you look back at your own graduate experiences or graduate school experiences and you're talking to individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, in technology, in whatever area it might be, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would Help them find success sooner. Michael McGetrick [00:25:57]: When I think about my own experience, I feel like I was super excited about the graduate program I was going to undertake. And I had read a few business books that got me excited and sort of connected to the narrative of business. And so if I were going to give some quick advice to someone who was looking for launching their success, I would just say, you know, make sure you're up to speed on the latest thinking in your field. Make sure you're. Before you start the program, read some of the more interesting literature that is in your field. Tap into the, let's say, the strongest, most appreciated minds in your field and read their books, read their literature, read their articles to get you excited about what's happening in the field and what's going to learn. Because I think excitement and enthusiasm are the things that are going to lead to your success. And that is going to be something that sustains you when the work gets hard, when you have other obligations in life and it might be easy to take a semester off. Michael McGetrick [00:27:08]: So just try to maintain that excitement and enthusiasm about the program you're going to undertake. Second, your professors are there because they have a passion for what they do. They are dedicated to your success. They've devoted their lives and their careers to produce successful students, and ultimately that's what they want. While they give you hard work and hard assignments and hard projects to do, do they do ultimately want your success. So tap into their capabilities. Tap into them as a resource. They don't want you to fail. Michael McGetrick [00:27:40]: They want you to succeed in a big way. And furthermore, they can have incredible networks that can connect you to opportunities that you may not think are out there, whether professional connections, research, so on and so forth. And I would say, you know, getting involved at the graduate level, making, making friends, making connections. If you do an online program, there's still community to be had. If you're on campus, make sure you're taking the time to not just go to class and do the work, but to really engage with your fellow students and build connections that are going to be there for life as they have been for me. So get that sustaining interest and excitement about the program, tap into your professors and that and build your community in whatever form that takes, whether on campus or online. And I think you're going to have an amazing time in a graduate program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:33]: Well, Michael, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not over, your journey continues. But I truly appreciate you sharing all of this today and the things that you've learned along the way, and I wish you all the best. Michael McGetrick [00:28:47]: Thank you Chris. It's been a pleasure and good luck to everyone out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms [umflint.edu/graduateprograms] to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu [flintgradoffice@umflint.edu].