Work For Humans

Michael Cholbi approaches work not just as a function of economics or management but as a deep philosophical question. He brings a rare lens to the topic, one that connects ancient wisdom, contemporary ethics, and the day-to-day experience of workers today. In this episode, Michael and Dart explore how work shapes us and how it might be reimagined to serve us better. From Plato and Marx to Bullshit Jobs, dignity to autonomy, they ask what makes work just, and whether companies are morally responsible for the work they design. Michael Cholbi is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Edinburgh and the author of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s definitive entry on the philosophy of work. His research explores ethics, justice, and how societal structures influence human well-being. In this episode, Dart and Michael discuss: - Why many people are “work-positive” by necessity, not choice - What adaptive preferences reveal about our relationship to labor - The moral obligations of companies that design work as a product - Is the duty to work just? - How automation could decenter work and expand freedom - Working for dignity vs. being used as a means - What a less work-centered future might offer us all - And other topics… Michael Cholbi is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Edinburgh, specializing in moral philosophy and the philosophy of work. He is the author of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s definitive entry on work and labor—a leading scholarly resource. His research examines ethics, justice, and how social structures impact human well-being. He is also widely recognized for his work on the philosophy of death, grief, and autonomy. Michael has written or edited numerous influential books and frequently contributes to both academic and public debates on labor, meaning, and ethics. His work connects ancient philosophical insights with contemporary issues like automation and workplace dignity. Resources Mentioned: Bullshit Jobs: A Theory, by David Graeber: https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp/150114331X [https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp/150114331X] The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Work and Labor, by Michael Cholbi: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/work-labor/ [https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/work-labor/] The Republic, by Plato: https://www.amazon.com/Republic-Plato/dp/1503379981 [https://www.amazon.com/Republic-Plato/dp/1503379981] Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844, by Karl Marx: https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Philosophic-Manuscripts-Western-Philosophy/dp/0486455610 [https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Philosophic-Manuscripts-Western-Philosophy/dp/0486455610] Connect with Michael: Website: https://michael.cholbi.com/ [https://michael.cholbi.com/]  Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold [https://www.11fold.com/]. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com [https://www.11fold.com/].

Anthea Roberts began her career in international law. But after years of studying global conflict and power, she realized the real problem wasn’t policy—it was perspective. People weren’t just disagreeing on solutions; they weren’t even seeing the same problems. This realization led Anthea to develop "Dragonfly Thinking," a framework designed to help individuals and organizations view challenges through multiple lenses. She is now creating AI tools to apply this methodology to real-world decision-making. In this episode, Dart and Anthea talk about designing better thinking, why diverse mental frames matter, and what it means to build tools that make us better thinkers, not just faster ones. Anthea Roberts is the founding CEO of Dragonfly Thinking and a Professor at the Australian National University. Her award-winning book Six Faces of Globalization explores competing narratives shaping the global order, and her work blends law, systems, and cognition to help people and institutions think better at scale. In this episode, Dart and Anthea discuss: - Why thinking better—not faster—is the key to solving complex problems - How to help teams see their blind spots and cognitive defaults - What AI can and can’t do to improve decision-making - Why tools must fit the human hand (and mind) - The value of metaphor and reframing in shaping insight - How to operationalize integrative complexity inside organizations - And other topics… Anthea Roberts is a Professor at the Australian National University’s School of Regulation and Global Governance and a Visiting Professor at Harvard Law School. A globally recognized legal scholar and systems thinker, she created “Dragonfly Thinking,” a framework for navigating complexity through multiple perspectives. Anthea is the award-winning author of Is International Law International? and co-author of Six Faces of Globalization, named one of the Best Books of 2021 by the Financial Times and Fortune. Through her company Dragonfly Thinking, she is developing AI tools to support better decision-making in complex environments. Resources Mentioned: Anthea’s website: anthearoberts.com [https://www.anthearoberts.com/] Dragonfly Thinking: dragonflythinking.net [https://www.dragonflythinking.net/] Six Faces of Globalization, by Anthea Roberts and Nicolas Lamp: amazon.com/Six-Faces-Globalization-Loses-Matters/dp/0674245954 [https://www.amazon.com/Six-Faces-Globalization-Loses-Matters/dp/0674245954] Superforecasting, by Philip Tetlock: amazon.com/Superforecasting-Science-Prediction-Philip-Tetlock/dp/0804136718 [https://www.amazon.com/Superforecasting-Science-Prediction-Philip-Tetlock/dp/0804136718] Images of Organization, by Gareth Morgan: amazon.com/Images-Organization-Gareth-Morgan/dp/1412939798 [https://www.amazon.com/Images-Organization-Gareth-Morgan/dp/1412939798] Kate Griggs on Work for Humans: open.spotify.com/episode/6JogZDTsIeABNKsuCGV6Ve [https://open.spotify.com/episode/6JogZDTsIeABNKsuCGV6Ve?go=1&sp_cid=3e181991d43b0e763f172df97422474b&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=1e72e2713ac44e0e] Connect with Anthea: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthea-roberts-a8596b142/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthea-roberts-a8596b142/]  Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold [https://www.11fold.com/]. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com [https://www.11fold.com/].

Lisa Kay Solomon sees design everywhere—not just in products, but in conversations, strategies, systems, and futures. As a futurist and strategist, she has spent her career helping leaders and organizations think long-term, navigate uncertainty, and drive meaningful change through intentional design.  In this episode, Lisa and Dart talk about how to lead with imagination in uncertain times, why good strategy needs emotional engagement, and how design can be a form of applied hope. They also explore what leaders can learn from scenario planning, the surprising lessons of an early GNC wellness experiment, and how future-readiness starts with asking better questions. Lisa Kay Solomon is a futures and design educator at Stanford University’s d.school, where she teaches classes on long-term thinking, systems leadership, and civic imagination. She is the co-author of Moments of Impact and Design a Better Business. In this episode, Dart and Lisa discuss: - Why the best leaders are also designers of the future - The power of imagination in strategy and systems change - What scenario planning can teach us about agency - How emotional connection drives effective strategy - Lessons from civic design and community-led change - And other topics... Lisa Kay Solomon is a futurist, strategist, and Designer in Residence at the Stanford d.school, where she helps leaders and students develop the skills to navigate uncertainty and shape long-term change. She is the co-author of the bestselling books Moments of Impact and Design a Better Business. Named to the Thinkers50 Radar list and recognized by ixDA as a Woman of Design, Lisa is known for blending design, foresight, and civic imagination to prepare people for the future. Resources Mentioned: Moments of Impact: How to Design Strategic Conversations That Accelerate Change, by Lisa Kay Solomon and Chris Ertel: https://www.amazon.com/Moments-Impact-Strategic-Conversations-Accelerate/dp/1451697627 [https://www.amazon.com/Moments-Impact-Strategic-Conversations-Accelerate/dp/1451697627] Design a Better Business: New Tools, Skills, and Mindset for Strategy and Innovation, by Patrick Van Der Pijl, Justin Lokitz, and Lisa Kay Solomon: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Better-Business-Strategy-Innovation/dp/1119272114 [https://www.amazon.com/Design-Better-Business-Strategy-Innovation/dp/1119272114] Stanford d.school: https://dschool.stanford.edu [https://dschool.stanford.edu/] The Long Now Foundation: https://longnow.org [https://longnow.org] Connect with Lisa: Website: https://www.lisakaysolomon.com/ [https://www.lisakaysolomon.com/] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisakaysolomon/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisakaysolomon/] Course: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/leading-like-a-futurist [https://www.linkedin.com/learning/leading-like-a-futurist] Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold [https://www.11fold.com/]. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com [https://www.11fold.com/].

Nubank is the largest digital bank outside of Asia and one of the fastest-growing companies globally, recently surpassing 119 million customers across Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia. Much of that growth has been fueled by an obsessive focus on customer experience. Now, Suzana Kubric and Jessica Matsumoto are bringing that same mindset to employees. In this episode, Dart talks with Suzana and Jessica about what it means to design HR as a product, why Nubank brought in PMs and designers from other disciplines to lead the effort, and how to lead an organization as it goes through this kind of transformation.  Suzana Kubric is Chief People Officer at Nubank, where she’s leading a transformation of HR into a product and design function. She brings a customer-obsessed lens to building employee experience at scale. Jessica Matsumoto is Senior Director of People Experience, Growth, and Culture at Nubank. She co-leads the People & Culture Product team, applying product thinking to reimagine how work is designed. In this episode, Dart, Suzana, and Jessica discuss: - How HR can be reimagined as a product team - Why employee experience needs more than policies and programs - What journey mapping looks like inside a 100-million-customer company - How designers and PMs are reshaping HR’s role and process - What makes employees feel like true customers of work - The risks and rewards of building in the open - Why this shift changes not just what HR does, but what it is - And other topics… Suzana Kubric is Chief People Officer at Nubank, where she is leading a transformation of HR into a product and service design function. She is helping one of the world’s fastest-growing companies redesign work to be as intentional and human-centered as its customer products. Jessica Matsumoto is Senior Director of People Experience, Growth, and Culture at Nubank. She co-leads the People & Culture Product team, applying product thinking and experimentation to the full employee lifecycle. Resources Mentioned: Nubank: https://nubank.com.br [https://nubank.com.br] Connect with Suzana: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzana-kubric-8948b57/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzana-kubric-8948b57/] Connect with Jessica: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-matsumoto-5a836620/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-matsumoto-5a836620/] Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold [https://www.11fold.com/]. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com [https://www.11fold.com/].

If work is a product, and employees are customers of that product, then every company is a multi-sided business, one that must serve both consumers and workers. According to platform economist Andrei Hagiu, how companies design that experience, how they structure control, pricing, and participation, matters more than we realize. He has spent his career studying the world’s most influential platforms, from Uber and Airbnb to Apple and Amazon. In this episode, Dart and Andrei explore what platform strategy can teach us about modern work design, why the “employee vs. contractor” debate is outdated, when it is efficient to give employees more control, and what “platform governance” means inside a company. Andrei Hagiu is a professor at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business and a leading expert on multi-sided platforms. His research focuses on the strategic decisions that shape platform businesses, including pricing, control, and design. In this episode, Dart and Andrei discuss: - What Uber, Airbnb, and Upwork get right—and where they fail workers - The difference between a multi-sided business and a true platform - Why “employee vs. contractor” is a false dichotomy - How outdated laws are holding back the future of work - When giving workers more control is smart—and when it’s not - What a Mexican cockfight reveals about platform pricing - How employers can learn from platforms to design better work - And other topics… Andrei Hagiu is a professor of Information Systems at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business and one of the world’s leading experts on multi-sided platforms. His research explores how platforms like Uber, Airbnb, and Apple make strategic decisions about pricing, control, and governance—and what those decisions mean for users, workers, and markets. Prior to BU, Andrei taught at MIT Sloan and Harvard Business School. He advises global companies on platform strategy and is the co-author of several foundational papers on platform economics. His work helps businesses, from tech startups to established firms, navigate the complex dynamics of serving multiple stakeholders at once. Resources Mentioned: Andrei Hagiu’s website: https://andreihagiu.com [https://andreihagiu.com] Connect with Andrei: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrei-hagiu-0646751/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrei-hagiu-0646751/]  Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold [https://www.11fold.com/]. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com [https://www.11fold.com/].