Burn The Map: Community, Concrete, and the Coming Automation Wave w/ Matthew Byrd

Burn The Map: Why Human-First AI Wins w/ Mike Montague

In This Episode: We talk to Mike Montague about what it looks like to use AI without becoming lazy, robotic, or completely unbearable. Mike's the founder of Avenue9, a marketer-who-codes, a broadcaster-turned-podcaster, and one of the few people talking about AI in a way that doesn't sound like either a doomer spiral or a LinkedIn hallucination. His core bet is simple: AI should make humans better at building trust, not better at faking it. Mike breaks down why so much "agentic AI" still feels more like a magic trick than true autonomy, why most companies are using personalization in the dumbest possible way, and why the real opportunity is in removing friction—not replacing human judgment. He and Dan also get into cognitive overload, AI burnout, context engineering, the small-business advantage, and why average work is about to have a very hard time hiding. This is a sharp one for anyone trying to figure out how to use AI to get more human, not less. What We Cover: * Why AGI may be closer than people think—but still isn't here * The difference between Terminator AI and Iron Man AI * Why "human-first AI marketing" is really about trust, context, and judgment * How fake personalization backfires the second people smell the template * Why small businesses may be better positioned than giant brands in the AI shift * The three types of work—physical, intellectual, and emotional—and why marketing lives in the messiest category * How context engineering helps train AI on what actually makes a company different * Why speed alone is not the win if it fries your brain in the process * How to think about work, creativity, and finding the thing that makes you come alive Guest Bio: Mike Montague is the founder of Avenue9 and the host of the Human First AI Marketing podcast. He's spent his career at the intersection of sales, marketing, media, and technology—combining broadcaster instincts, systems thinking, and a sharp eye for what actually earns attention. Mike is also the author of Playful Humans, where he explores creativity, emotional work, and how people can build lives and careers around what makes them come alive. His work focuses on helping companies use AI to amplify human connection instead of automating the soul out of the experience. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [http://wrench.ai]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Mike: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedmontague/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedmontague/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Avenue9: https://avenue9.com/ [https://avenue9.com/] * Human First AI Marketing podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@avenue9ai [https://www.youtube.com/@avenue9ai] * Wrench.ai: https://wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Mike Montague * Dan Baird * Avenue9 * Wrench.ai * Meta * Anthropic * Google NotebookLM * Netflix * Seth Godin * Rory Sutherland * Lex Friedman * Shelley Palmer Show Notes & Timestamps:01:05 — Why AI adoption went from taboo to everywhere to polarizing 02:00 — Is AGI close? Mike's take on the next 3–4 years 02:28 — Why agentic AI still feels like a magic trick 03:29 — What changed in real workflow: replacing old work vs evolving new work 05:21 — Why Mike trademarked "human-first AI marketing" 07:00 — The three types of work: physical, intellectual, and emotional 09:43 — Information overload, AI burnout, and cognitive fatigue 11:17 — Automating low-value decisions to protect meaningful work 12:07 — Terminator vs Iron Man: two competing visions of AI 14:09 — What most companies are getting wrong with AI 15:21 — Human + AI capability mapping inside an organization 16:18 — Where AI is clearly useful: translation, transcription, scale 17:38 — Where human context still matters most in marketing and service 18:36 — Context engineering and training AI like a new employee 21:15 — Personalization, long-tail products, and what custom experiences could become 23:38 — Why small businesses may have the biggest AI advantage 25:01 — AI-generated outreach, job applications, and the return of human filtering 26:13 — Why people reward real effort with real attention 28:44 — Novelty, emotion, and what actually makes ideas spread 30:10 — Why Mike refuses to chase shortcuts and growth hacks 31:35 — Playful Humans, interviewing 250 people who "play" for a living 34:03 — How to find your "muse" and work that feels natural 37:02 — Why "What do you want to be?" is the wrong question 38:23 — Burn the Map, order vs chaos, and why interesting work lives in between 39:39 — Dan's take on displacement, productivity, and why average work is vulnerable 41:24 — Why Burn The Map exists: conversations with people who have a fire in their belly 44:22 — Where to find Mike and who should check out his work 45:16 — Mike's favorite thinkers and voices in marketing and AI

Burn The Map: Community, Concrete, and the Coming Automation Wave w/ Matthew Byrd

In This Episode: We talk to Matthew Byrd about what it takes to build a real community around emerging technology instead of just slapping "innovation" on a sales deck and calling it a day. Matthew is the founder of Reality Capture Network (RCN) and the guy behind R-CON, a conference built for the people modernizing the physical world—construction, infrastructure, facilities, transportation, and all the messy, essential systems that keep society standing up. He breaks down why the built environment is such a massive and overlooked opportunity, how digitizing physical spaces unlocks everything from AI analysis to robotics to autonomous vehicles, and why the real leverage isn't just in the tech—it's in helping people understand what the tech is actually for. We also get into a deeper thread running underneath the whole conversation: why community matters more than content, why in-person relationships still beat digital convenience, and why the people shaping the future should probably be the ones close enough to the work to understand the consequences. What We Cover: * Why Matthew built RCN and R-CON to close the education gap around emerging tech in the built environment * How digitizing physical spaces creates the foundation for AI, robotics, autonomy, and smarter infrastructure * Why autonomous driving, delivery, and robotics are coming faster than most people think * The difference between a real community and a dressed-up sales funnel pretending to be one * Why giving value without strings attached is still one of the best business strategies on earth * Why in-person events, handshakes, and actual human connection still outperform a mountain of cold outreach Guest Bio: Matthew Byrd is the founder of Reality Capture Network (RCN) and creator of R-CON, an annual conference focused on emerging technologies shaping the built environment. With a background in surveying and hands-on work across hospitals, airports, freeways, and infrastructure projects, Matthew built his platform around a simple idea: if technology is going to transform how we build and operate the physical world, the people in that world need a better way to learn, connect, and adapt. He's equal parts industry translator, community builder, and believer in getting involved before the future gets decided for you. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [http://wrench.ai]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Matthew: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewbyrdprofile/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewbyrdprofile/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Reality Capture Network: https://realitycapturenetwork.com [https://realitycapturenetwork.com/] * R-CON 2026: https://r-con2026.com [https://r-con2026.com/] * Wrench.ai: https://wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Matthew Byrd * Dan Baird * Reality Capture Network * R-CON * Wrench.ai * Steve Jobs * Hilti * Niantic * Amazon * Boise State Show Notes & Timestamps: * 00:08 — Dan welcomes Matthew and asks the obvious question: what the hell is R-CON, and why build it? * 01:34 — Matthew explains RCN, R-CON, and the education gap around emerging built-environment technology * 04:56 — Why the built environment is such a compelling and important vertical * 07:35 — The giant opportunity in modernizing trillion-dollar physical industries * 09:28 — Digitizing physical spaces: the foundation for AI, robotics, and autonomy * 10:40 — Pokémon Go, mapped movement data, and the strange path to robotic delivery * 13:53 — Will AI replace jobs, or just remove the worst tasks? * 14:56 — Why Matthew believes autonomous driving will reshape society in the next decade * 17:27 — Manual driving, public resistance, and why people need a voice in how tech gets adopted * 21:36 — The return of analog: cars, phones, and the backlash against overdesigned tech * 25:25 — The hardest part of building a community-centered business * 26:13 — Matthew on why he sees himself less as a technologist and more as a connector * 27:33 — Why in-person conferences still beat virtual when real trust is on the line * 30:49 — What actually makes a community real—and what makes it fake * 34:23 — Giving without strings attached and why that creates stronger long-term outcomes * 36:08 — Where to find Matthew, RCN, and R-CON * 37:44 — Why people need other builders around them, especially in the digital age * 39:31 — Open bars, casino nights, football fields, and the mechanics of making business relationships actually happen * 41:00 — Why not burning bridges still matters more than most people admit

Burn The Map: SEO, LLMs, and Calling Bullshit Early w/ Jason Berkowitz

In This Episode: We talk to Jason Berkowitz about the weird, messy overlap between SEO, AI search, and the growing industry of people selling certainty where there really isn't any. Jason breaks down what's actually changing, what's mostly recycled packaging, and why a lot of the current GEO/LLM optimization conversation is just old-school SEO wearing a sharper outfit. He walks through the real problems brands are dealing with right now: collapsing organic traffic, bot scraping, fuzzy attribution, shifting baselines, and leadership teams asking for answers before the platforms themselves have settled. The throughline here is simple: don't confuse novelty with clarity. AI is changing search, but that doesn't mean you should hand your strategy over to people promising magic tricks. What still matters is judgment, strong fundamentals, clear messaging, and knowing the difference between useful automation and expensive theater. What We Cover: * Why SEO isn't dead — it's just getting stranger, noisier, and harder to measure * The truth about GEO, AEO, and LLM optimization, and why so much of it is just repackaged SEO * What brands should actually care about as AI overviews and bot traffic eat into old traffic models * How to think about AI citations, topical alignment, and visibility without pretending rank tracking is objective * What parts of SEO should be automated immediately — and what still needs a human brain * Why clear, audience-first messaging beats clever brand language when discoverability is on the line * The agency-world bullshit Jason refuses to participate in, from fake certainty to low-integrity client retention Guest Bio: Jason Berkowitz is the founder of Break The Web, an SEO agency focused on helping in-house marketing teams make search less confusing, less bloated, and a lot more honest. He has spent more than 15 years in SEO and digital marketing, building a reputation for sharp thinking, strong opinions, and very little patience for industry nonsense. Jason works at the intersection of SEO, content strategy, digital PR, and AI search visibility, with a particular obsession for separating what actually works from what's just being sold well. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Jason: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonberkowitzseo/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonberkowitzseo/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Break The Web: https://breaktheweb.agency/ [https://breaktheweb.agency/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Break The Web * Wrench.ai * Google * OpenAI * ChatGPT * Anthropic * Claude * Gemini * Perplexity * Reddit * Amazon Show Notes & Timestamps:01:14 — Organic traffic drops, bot scraping explodes, and brands start panicking about LLM visibility 04:07 — Google patents, personalized landing pages, and whether the future of search even looks like a browser anymore 05:32 — Consumer trust, ChatGPT behavior, and why mainstream adoption still matters more than tech Twitter takes 09:34 — Market share, AI business models, and why the infrastructure race won't slow down anytime soon 13:06 — Tracking AI visibility with APIs, topical alignment, and why personalization makes "rank tracking" messy 16:09 — Reddit, sarcasm, trolling, and whether LLMs can reliably tell signal from nonsense 19:51 — Why simple, audience-first language beats clever naming when you want to be understood by both humans and machines 23:38 — Automating the boring SEO work without sacrificing strategic thinking 25:42 — Are AI systems smarter than marketers yet? Jason and Dan split the difference 32:48 — The biggest lie in the industry right now: "SEO is dead" 33:44 — Why some GEO agencies are charging real money for glorified PR and content packaging 36:31 — Agency churn, retention, and the brutal math behind low-integrity service businesses 37:23 — The part of SEO Jason refuses to automate: strategy, architecture, and relationship-driven judgment 41:07 — What Break The Web actually does, and why in-house marketers often stall out before real growth starts 44:04 — Search intent, topical clusters, and balancing brand voice with what Google will actually reward 47:00 — Jason's "oh shit" moment: building around one giant client and nearly learning the hard way 48:45 — Why Jason caps client concentration and refuses to overload the business for short-term revenue 49:45 — No contracts, expectation-setting, and earning the business every month 52:01 — Quick wins, buyer's remorse, and the psychology of keeping clients confident early 53:07 — Entrepreneurship, boredom, obsession, and why some people just aren't built for retirement 54:03 — Mexico jungles, isolation, mental reset, and the strange therapy of going off-grid

Burn The Map: Build, Buy, or Get Left Behind w/ Jonathon 'Coach K" Kvarfordt

In This Episode: We talk to Jonathon Kvarfordt, aka Coach K, about what it actually looks like to implement AI in go-to-market without falling for the easy-button fantasy. Jonathon has spent years in sales coaching, GTM strategy, marketing, and AI education, and most recently helped lead go-to-market at Momentum through its acquisition by Salesforce. He's one of the few people in the space who sounds like he's actually done the work—because he has. This conversation gets into where AI projects really break: bad inputs, lazy implementation, fuzzy goals, and teams that want transformation without changing how they operate. Jonathon makes the case that the future isn't about doing the old workflow a little faster. It's about rethinking the system underneath it. We also get into the bigger existential question hanging over all of this—if everyone has access to the same models, same tools, same agents… what's left that's actually defensible? His answer: your taste, your scars, your judgment, and your IP. What We Cover: * How Jonathon went from Momentum customer to advisor to GTM leader during the run-up to the Salesforce acquisition * Why most AI implementations fail before they really start * The difference between automating old workflows and rebuilding them from scratch * Why the best AI often works in the background, removing drudgery instead of creating more work * What actually matters when everyone suddenly has access to the same tools * Jonathon's take on build vs. buy, vibe coding, and why your judgment is still the real moat Guest Bio: Jonathon Kvarfordt is a go-to-market and AI operator known for turning emerging AI capability into practical revenue execution. He most recently served as VP of GTM at Momentum, which was acquired by Salesforce, and has worked across sales coaching, marketing, AI implementation, and GTM strategy. He also teaches as an adjunct professor at Bryant University and contributes to the broader GTM community through GTM Academy. If you want AI strategy from someone with actual battle scars—not recycled theory—Coach K is worth paying attention to. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [http://wrench.ai]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Jonathon: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Jonathon Kvarfordt LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Bryant University * GTM Academy * Mark Benioff * Jason Lemkin * Kyle Norton * Claude * Anthropic * Allie Miller * Jonathan Moss * Tahnee Peroy * Maya Voje * Alex Lindell * Dannii Mathers Show Notes & Timestamps: * 00:08 — Intro: Dan welcomes Jonathon Kvarfordt, aka Coach K * 01:14 — Momentum, Salesforce, and how Jonathon ended up inside the company after first being a customer * 06:35 — The hardest part of teaching AI and GTM: getting people past one-line prompts and "easy button" thinking * 08:22 — Why the future isn't just faster old workflows—it's a fundamentally different operating model * 09:43 — Biggest implementation failures: bad inputs, weak context, and customers blaming AI for their own laziness * 12:29 — What an ideal AI rollout actually looks like when tied to business outcomes and real KPIs * 15:22 — Passive data capture, workflow-native AI, and why the best use cases reduce human effort instead of adding to it * 18:12 — Is AI smarter than you yet? Jonathon's take on IP, leverage, and what remains defensible * 21:09 — Geekiness, passion, and why human obsession still matters in an AI-saturated world * 23:10 — AI music, authenticity, and whether human-created work becomes more valuable as synthetic supply explodes * 28:03 — Why the real value of AI output often comes from years of human experience compressed into faster delivery * 30:45 — Jonathon's changed belief: AI may understand emotional intelligence better than most people assume * 34:05 — Build vs. buy in the vibe-coding era: what individuals can build vs. what real organizations still struggle to pull off * 38:58 — Dan on replacing yourself, MCPs, and teaching AI your decision tree without surrendering judgment * 43:32 — Two weeks to learn AI: where late adopters should start and how to avoid wasting money * 45:48 — Where to find Jonathon and the thinkers he recommends following

Burn The Map: AI, Knowledge Inflation, and the Race to Stay Valuable w/ Tim Kapp

In This Episode: We talk to Tim Kapp about what happens when AI stops being a cool tool and starts becoming an economic event. Tim breaks down his idea of knowledge inflation — the unsettling reality that the thing most of us have been selling for decades, namely knowledge work, is getting cheaper by the day. From coding and product design to education, law, and marketing, he walks through what happens when intelligence becomes abundant, syntax becomes cheap, and the real value shifts somewhere else. This one goes into the deep end: AI as a force that reorganizes work, rewards taste over rote skill, and exposes entirely new bottlenecks in business. Tim and Dan get into autonomous agents, trust, universities losing their grip as the default signal of competence, and why the winners in this next era may be the people who can read the terrain, think structurally, and build what should exist next. What We Cover: How knowledge inflation is deflating the value of traditional knowledge work. Why syntax is becoming cheap — and why taste, structure, and judgment matter more. What businesses get wrong when they use AI to cut people instead of remove bottlenecks. Why technical product managers and curious operators may be the big winners here. How trust, network effects, IP, and distribution could become the real moats in an AI-saturated world. Guest Bio: Tim Kapp is an AI strategist, economist, professor, and founder of Cinco AI. He works at the intersection of economics, data science, education, and applied AI, and has taught at BYU. Tim has been writing and speaking about the economic consequences of artificial intelligence — especially how AI is reshaping knowledge work, incentives, and competitive advantage. He publishes his thinking at timkapp.com and leads AI work through cinco.ai. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai. [http://wrench.ai] Follow Dan: LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Tim: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timkapp/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/timkapp/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Tim Kapp: https://www.timkapp.com/ [https://www.timkapp.com/] * Tim Kapp Press Kit: https://www.timkapp.com/press-kit [https://www.timkapp.com/press-kit] * Cinco AI: https://www.cinco.ai/ [https://www.cinco.ai/] * Wrench.ai: https://wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Cinco AI * Wrench.ai * BYU * University of Utah * Anthropic * OpenAI * Meta * Google * Amazon * Ethan Mollick * Rick Rubin * Bertrand Russell * Adam Smith * Sandlot * Silicon Slopes Show Notes & Timestamps: * 01:22 — Tim explains knowledge inflation and why knowledge work is being deflated * 03:16 — AI as a printing press for knowledge * 04:09 — The "I'm replaceable" moment, and the weird grief cycle of AI adoption * 06:01 — Why using AI well feels like suddenly acquiring superpowers * 07:53 — Theory of constraints, bottlenecks, and why cutting staff can backfire * 10:23 — Decision-making hierarchies, internal knowledge systems, and "DNA files" * 11:23 — Why brand, feeling, and emotional texture may matter more in AI-built products * 14:22 — AI slop, synthetic personas, and testing experiences against simulated users * 17:34 — Tim's book I'm Learning You and the problem of AI systems optimizing to flatter and influence us * 19:19 — Recommendation engines, retention loops, and political polarization * 22:29 — Why AI may be making people work more, not less * 23:36 — The latest inflection point: automated testing starts beating human testing * 28:04 — Why syntax is becoming less valuable and structure is becoming more valuable * 29:36 — Ontologies, product thinking, and why technical product managers may win this era * 31:38 — Rick Rubin, taste, and why feel may outrun pure technical skill * 33:30 — Wi-Fi in the woods, discomfort, and stepping back to read the terrain * 36:19 — If AI breaks the bottleneck, where does value migrate next? * 38:12 — Sovereign AI, open models, and the geopolitical scramble for control * 40:23 — Autonomous agents, manipulation, and the blackmail-by-bot scenario * 47:20 — The hidden cost of training AI on your own judgment and process * 50:50 — The next durable moats: trust, capital, network effects, and IP * 53:52 — Why AI may become the single biggest economic event of our lifetimes * 55:19 — Bertrand Russell, idleness, and what humans should do if machines take more of the work * 59:11 — What kids should learn now in an AI-native world * 1:00:48 — Why universities may be failing as a signal of actual capability * 1:04:12 — Curiosity, applied learning, and why goofing off with tools may be the real education * 1:06:00 — Burn The Map, obsession, and the people who can't help but chase the thing