Episode 03 - Jon Massimi

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For Context: Dr. Jon Massimi Episode # 03 🎙️ Episode Overview On this episode of For Context, Dr. Jon Massimi, another Canadian, joins Luke and Gino to discuss contextual theology. Jon is a graduate (second cohort!) of the Doctorate in Ministry in Contextual Theology program at Northern Seminary. They discuss how contextual theology works in every day life by changing our posture toward our neighborhood. Whether the conversation is focused on the Eucharist or AI and Pentecostal memory, this episode is worth your time. Listen in! For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary [http://www.seminary.edu]. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program [https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/] (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu [http://seminary.edu]. 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary [https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/] * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ [https://faithinsitu.substack.com/] 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com [https://forcontextpod.substack.com/] Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137] | Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da] Episode Transcript Gino Curcuruto: I am Gino Curcuruto. Luke Stehr: I’m Luke Stehr Gino Curcuruto: And you’re listening to For Context, Luke Stehr: A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. Today on For Context we have Jon Massimi. Jon Massimi is a professor, speaker, and experiential learning designer who helps leaders, educators, and the curious turn experiences into insight and connection. His work explores how faith community and the gifts of ordinary people can reshape how we face complex challenges. Gino Curcuruto: I loved having this conversation and I know you did too. Luke, this is a great episode and I hope that you all listening enjoy it as well. Luke Stehr: All right, Gino. Today we’ve got Jon Massimi who’s here with us. Jon, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you are and how long ago was it that you went to Northern? Because I’ve never met you. I don’t know that Gino’s ever met you, so I think it’s been a little bit since you graduated. Jon Massimi: Well, I find myself in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada. Before that, I was in a town called Branford, Ontario. I’m mentioning that because it is the birthplace of Wayne Gretzky and since nice, Luke Stehr: Notable Jon Massimi: Hockey, it’s a Gretzky town there. Luke Stehr: Do you feel like being from the same town as Gretzky helped you with Fitch? Jon Massimi: Somewhat. Somewhat. I think navigating the hockey metaphors and Hauerwas was a skill. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Jon Massimi: So when did I start the program? I started in 2013 and then from there graduated 2017. Luke Stehr: That’s awesome. What made you want to go into a program focused on contextual theology? Jon Massimi: When it first started it was Missional Leadership and that was the buzz at the time. So we all started Missional Leadership, my denomination, so I’m an Anglican priest, like that idea of leadership and wanting people to take charge. And then midway through the program it changed to” contextual theology, which I think is actually a better term to use. So what drew me into the program, it was very much relationships. I saw Fitch at a couple of gatherings in and around town here, so London, Ontario. So that’s about two hours where I am, and just found that he had similar connections and we knew similar people and I was just sharing my desire to continue my education and he goes, “Hey, I’m starting this new program.” And he goes, “come check it out.” So I missed joining the first cohort. I was the second cohort of the program. So before putting an application, I took a drive to Lombard and met with Fitch, brought my family, went to the old seminary, I guess Fitch comes out of his office with t-shirt and jeans and hey, he’s like, dude hugs me. And I said, I drove from Kitchener. This is about eight hour drive. You have any free books for me? He goes, “Hey, I’m not Scot McKnight.” And then I already know the dynamic there, but I already had his books that he had. So anyway. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Gino Curcuruto: Jon, what do you spend your time doing these days? You said Anglican priest, but also I believe you’re a professor as well. Jon Massimi: Yes. So the trajectory I was doing church planting when I first started the program and like all good Anglican diocese, they’re really great at that. No, they’re not. You got things started and it’s like, oh, there’s some traction going on here. Let’s create a regional ministry. That didn’t really work out. And I transitioned to working with United Way in neighborhoods, and That shift occurred kind of I would say midway point of the program. So I had a particular topic in mind and it completely shifted because of that work with United Way I started off. It sounds a position that sounds a little bit more important than it was. It was at first a neighborhood development officer. There were no badges involved, so just there it was building relationships within the community. And then I moved to being a manager of community development and then from there started working with my municipality. So I became a supervisor of community centers. So I had five community centers and every community center had a church plant in it. Gino Curcuruto: Oh, wow. Jon Massimi: So I was meeting with more pastors than ever and I started just gathering at my house. I’m like, let’s talk about what’s happening in the neighborhood and maybe it’s put some theological framing around it. And one of the participants worked at Martin Luther University College, so that’s where I’m at as an adjunct and they needed someone to teach a course and she goes, “I know someone.” So that started the journey there. I think I’m up to eight courses. I don’t teach ‘em altogether. It’s like eight courses. Luke Stehr: That’d be a crazy load. Jon Massimi: Yeah, it would be most definitely. And then with that, I also do consultancy work, so I do work with neighbor associations, municipalities, I’ve worked with churches and from that I landed in, started a travel company too. I do educational travel and experiences. So there’s been situations where I’m working with a client and I’m like, that’s really a cool idea. Let me take you somewhere and that somewhere could be up the street, another city, or let’s go to another country and see what this is about. So that’s where I’m by myself and I’m currently in my home office with my kids barred in another room, so Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. I’m also curious about your experience in the program knowing that it was, you said the second cohort, so I’m sure some things have developed and maybe you’ve had a view of that on the way, but what were some of the seminars that were impactful for you? Jon Massimi: Well, I think right out of the gate, my first class with Fitch where we were talking about what are the essentials of the church. So framing that, and I think I came... so back up a bit. I’m not a cradle Anglican, so my family was Roman Catholic, grandpa became Pentecostal. So the emphasis growing up for me was Jesus in your heart, personal relationship. And I’m going to throw this out right now because Fitch is also known for his Hauerwas interpret or impressions. So I was at this Hauerwas event and someone asked, “Dr. Hauerwas, what’s your view on having a personal relationship with Jesus?” And I’m not going to do the impression. He’s like, “well, I don’t find having a personal relationship with Jesus that interesting.” And she, because Christianity is a mediated faith. So for me, that was one of the main learnings because I came in with this, yes, I was in the Anglican church, liturgical formation was big, but there was still this theological hangnail where it was, Hey, I need to have a personal relationship here. And in that it was this Christology that came first, but emphasizing, okay, ecclesiology first this appreciation of the church and that we have this mediated faith and we receive a story that we in turn pass on in our shape by. So that was one of the main learnings. Gino Curcuruto: That’s good. Jon Massimi: The second thing I appreciated was our after class hangouts with Fitch. So that’s where I found in the class we did listening and we had some discussions, but the heavy lifting I think happened around Fitch’s kitchen table or patio where we, and that would also be the opportunity. He would come out with his letter from Hauerwas show us that, and then later This was a later edition, the autograph picture by Wayne Greg from Wayne Gretzky. So that was my connection to Branford. We hooked up that deal for him, but it is that, and I truly appreciated how he made time for all of us, and I think that also helped us forge relationships with one another. So we weren’t just relying on him, we were also bouncing ideas off of one another. Gino Curcuruto: Wow, Jon, that’s so good. That’s come up with in other discussions we’ve had with people. I’m glad to hear it. It’s a good reminder because the program in a lot of ways is promoted, if I can say it that way, as look at these amazing professors that you get to learn from. And that’s true and that’s good. Luke Stehr: Yeah, they’re amazing. Gino Curcuruto: They are amazing and I hope that draws people in. But at the same time, it seems like the people who have gone through this program emphasize yes, the professors and maybe even more so how they cultivate these relationships in the cohort. Luke, I don’t know if some questions come to mind for you, but I could go down that Hauerwas rabbit trail with Jon no problem. And might do that. But I’m going to give you this. Luke Stehr: I think before we get there, I think this is helpful because I know there are probably some people who are listening who are deeply familiar with contextual theology and the majority probably are not familiar with contextual theology as a concept. So you talked about this transition of the program being a missional leadership program to a contextual theology program and why you think that’s ultimately a good thing. So can you explain why that’s a good thing, why that transition makes sense? Why we would want to think about missional leadership and contextual theology in different ways? Jon Massimi: I think when we emphasize leadership, there’s an assumption at play that we’re entering into spaces with answers and authority and particular power postures. So when I say I’m the leader, I’m at the front of the room and other people follow me. So when I talk about missional leadership, it was that we as leaders were the primary guides into the community And we set the terms of engagement and we were the paid professionals that others relied on. So the shift when we’re talking about contextual theology, so it’s that shift from being, having the answers to entering into spaces with questions. So when you’re a leader, I think there is the temptation to be helpful; when you’re entering in contextually it’s entering with as someone who’s curious, asking questions like, “what may God be up to here?” It’s also allows you or opens space for others to participate in it. So the other component I appreciate it is this wrestling with our context, the message that we received, and there’s also this idea of discernment of how does the message that we received apply to where we find ourselves and in turn, how is God speaking to us through our context? My thesis or dissertation topic was around asset-based community development. So that is a practice created by John McKnight, and in short, it’s entering into places and communities seeking abundance, not focusing on scarcity. So that transition or even the idea of leadership could lead you toward a model or an approach that seeks out needs and focuses on scarcity. When I find with the contextual is God’s already active, God’s doing things, God’s not absent and God gives us the gifts and the resources we need to engage with that context. Gino Curcuruto: So do you ask different questions? I guess you ask different questions right from the beginning then when you’re thinking contextually what are the assets here versus what are the needs? But also do you think about how the idea of the context is shaped by the cultures that are there. And so we also have to take into account the self that comes in as the help is also shaped by a context or how we even view the self as well. I don’t know, did you engage with that in your work there? Jon Massimi: Yeah, we enter with baggage. So ethnography is a big part of the program. So you have participant observers, you’re entering into spaces, you are observing the space, but as you were mentioning, your presence shapes the space as well, being attentive to that. And it is uncovering stories and seeing how the stories draw us into God’s story. That’s how I understood it. And when I am listening to stories, I found that there were two impulses happening. So the first was this nostalgic impulse where people would look back on how things were and would grieve that and said, “if only we could go back to the good old days,” whatever that was. The other impulse or perspective is this utopic. So it’s like looking to a state of perfection or so Thomas Moore, utopian means no place so we can never actually attain it, but saying if only we can get there. And what I’ve learned is those two impulses both start with if only we, and that “if only”t invades the present with scarcity, It’s saying that we don’t have what we need now. We had it then and it’s gone. That could be larger crowds, buses of kids coming to Sunday school, whatever. And we also look at the present and say, we don’t have enough to take us into the future. So I spent years as a youth pastor on 10 hour a week contracts because it was, we need young people in our church and we need someone who’s hip and young to get them in. So we’re going to hire you and we’re going to expect you to bring in young people. Mind you, the congregations that did hire me were predominantly seniors. So when I’m looking at this with the scarcity mindset, then bringing it into conversation, liturgically for me, the Eucharist is central. The Eucharist teaches us two different impulses. So how do we look to the past, not grieving it or with nostalgia, but with thanksgiving. And then again, the Eucharist is not just a remembering, it’s a, there’s some eschatology happening, it’s looking to the future. So it gives us and allows us to look to the future with hope. And it thoroughly grounds us in the present. And in the present. It teaches us that God gives us what we need in the bread and wine and that God is enough and that we are enough for the moment. So that’s the framing over the years that was going on in my head. So again, starting in, Hey, I’m a leader. Let me be helpful. Let me show you the way. And then people start telling me their stories. Oh, do you remember when, let’s recreate this. Do you remember when we used to sing Shine Jesus shine or shelter the Lord? And how many people raised their hands? Okay, let’s forget about that. Let’s look on that at thanksgiving. Thank you God for what you’ve done and what is God doing now? And when I would enter as a youth pastor in those contexts, I didn’t have that language even to make sense of it myself. And I found that this program gave me a language not only to help me understand what was happening, but also to share with others and frame the conversation in different ways. Gino Curcuruto: Jon, you just connected something for me that’s really feels very significant in your discussion of the Eucharist right there. And it’s the quote that you’ll know that because Fitch always says it as Hauerwas when someone says, where is this church that you are talking about? And Hauerwas will always say it’s right where you are. But I think you just gave some framing for that because this church exists where you actually are, not where you long to be in the past or hope to be in the future, but where you’re thankful for the past and the future is invading the present eschatologically in some way. Is that a connection that you’ve made to when you hear that quote or when you hear if it is poor impersonation of Jon Massimi: Yeah, I do. I do. Gino Curcuruto: That’s super helpful to me. Jon Massimi: Yeah. And again, it is that because if we start seeking, I know in Canada, especially for the mainline church, so I’m working with Lutherans and I’m working with Anglicans, and it is a difficult time because those that have come through seminary we’re told that if you give a bang up sermon, if you do an amazing children’s focus at the front of the church, if you have soup kitchens and maybe a contemporary band, a lot of people will come. And our context and the communities around us are changing. So the pocket in which I find myself in is there’s a new mosque that opened up the street. So what does that mean? What does that mean for Shrove or Fat Tuesday pancakes and sausage. Hey, you want to come and have some non-halal sausage and pancakes, or is there a way that we can reach out in different ways? So it’s also that idea, and I know this comes out in the course as well, this attractional model that we set up all these things and people come to us, but it’s actually us going out. And when I look at the Eucharist, one of the things pronounced at the Eucharist is taste and see that the Lord is good. And I think when we gather around the table, it trains our palates so that we’re able to taste God in the neighborhood. What does God taste like? Luke Stehr: What a way to say that. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, Luke Stehr: That’s beautiful. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, that’s really good Luke Stehr: I mean, so, as you think about where you are now because of this program, what does life look like for you as a contextual theologian on the ground day to day? Jon Massimi: Well, first, I no longer have dreams of being a mega church pastor, so a little Luke Stehr: This program will cure you of that. Jon Massimi: Yes. In my day to day, what I find is I seek ways or I would say I try to be more attentive to what’s happening around me and to what God may be doing. So when I’m interacting with my neighbors, when I’m out, and I even think using the practice of ethnography allowed me to take in everything. How is this space speaking to me, how people are interacting around me, what is that saying? And one of the practices that I also engage in because of ethnography is I’ll walk my neighborhood during garbage day because what people throw out say a lot about them. So if I’m seeing a house with a lot of toys on the lawn and loads of pizza boxes, I’m like, okay, and hockey net, oh, maybe this is a hockey family that they’re always on the go and pizza is their primary meal on the go, and they’re very networked if you want to say it. They’re doing a million different things. So that’s one thing. Or I dunno, maybe some people drive by or walk by my house and say, what’s with all the beer cans anyway? Sometimes they have parties in the back area. We have a fire pit, Like I said, I grew up Pentecostal, but Italian Pentecostal. So you’re allowed to drink wine but don’t dance. Fair Luke Stehr: Fair enough. So I want to draw on something really interesting that I think this program does and has done for you. And I think it’s a really good counterpoint to what we talked about earlier is I think in the process you’ve actually encountered what truly is a personal relationship with Jesus, which is this attentive life versus I think that kind of personal relationship we receive maybe out of the frameworks of evangelicalism where it’s really more of an intellectual like me and God are good kind of thing. Whereas you are now basically talking about this program has made you attentive to Christ’s presence everywhere you go, which is truly what a personal relationship with Jesus is. And I would just love it if you would elaborate on that. Jon Massimi: Well, I would say when you’re talking about the personal relationship, it’s the recognition that Jesus comes to us through others. So that’s that ecclesiology piece, but also Christ is coming to us through the stranger That we’re interacting with. So it is that openness, but it’s also the recognition that I enter into spaces as a stranger as well. And when we look at strangers, one of the things that we teach our kids is don’t speak to strangers and it’s a hidden curriculum. They’re saying fear the other because the other can do you harm. But with this program it’s saying, well, the stranger could potentially be God speaking to us, and then in turn we can be the revelation of Christ to others. Luke Stehr: That’s what I was getting at with the personal relationship. That’s not that interesting, but that’s that intellectual evangelical ascent model, not what you’re describing. Jon Massimi: Yeah. So year two of the program, I was doing the church plant thing and some people in the congregation were musicians. So, they were like, “Hey Jon wanted to come to one of our gigs?” Well, the gig was on a Saturday night and they were on at one in the morning being a good Anglican priest. My next service was at 8:00 AM morning prayer. So I went and I didn’t wear the collar, I didn’t want to be identified. And the bar was called Two Doors Down. I went in, ordered my drink and I was off in the corner. Then some other people walked in and they were recognized by others in the bar and they yell out, “Hey Michelle, what are you doing here?” And then she yells, “I’m here with my priest,” and she points at me in the corner. Well, what ended up happening, this little group starts gathering around me and people started asking me God questions. And I made the joke that God was two doors down and it was already at work, it was already preparing things there. I wanted to hide, but I was called out and people shared their horror, their horror stories of the church. And one person was like, “well, if I come, will you accept me? I would like my daughter to be baptized. Will you accept her?” So that conversation, so I think we got out of the bar at four in the morning and I just went right to the church and slept in the office. I went right to doing morning prayer, I don’t remember what I was speaking on. It was a little groggy, but just that, right. It was okay, this is happening to me. And I was learning not to push it. It was like, just listen. I didn’t need to be the Bible answer man, in that moment. Right. You share and it’s a yes. I hear you. Luke Stehr: Absolutely Jon Massimi: People. So the other thing that comes out of it is Fitch’s three circles. So that was the semicircle, right? Gino Curcuruto: Right. Jon Massimi: How are we received? How are we a guest? I said he needs to Luke Stehr: A bit of a pause because not everyone’s familiar with the three circles model. So one of you two, because you both have, Gino especially has really oriented his life around it. You can just brief explanation, Jon Massimi: Take it on. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Well, I would say that the way Fitch describes it, he has three circles. He says that the church exists not in just one space, time and place, but in all of life. So as you described, these three circles also have a shape that’s designed to be memorable. There’s a close circle, which is a full circle, close, not closed. And that would be where we would enter that space as the recipients of God’s presence. There’s a connecting circle is what we call it. I think he calls it the dotted circle. Luke Stehr: I think you’re right. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. So that would just be a circle, like a dotted circle if you can visualize that as you’re listening. And that is the place where we go as hosts of the presence of God in some way. So we might be welcoming people around a table in our house or somewhere else. And then there’s also the half circle, the semicircle, the open circle where we go as guests of God’s presence, seeking to find where God is present and at work, and then name that to others. So it could be two doors down literally or figuratively. Luke Stehr: People are laughing and having a party. So with that in mind, you found yourself in that semicircle that night. I totally interrupted you and derailed, but I wanted to make sure. Jon Massimi: Oh yeah, yeah. No, no, it’s fine. It’s fine. That’s good. Giving people context, right? Yeah, I found that helpful. And it’s also a tool to share with congregations. So the close circle is important. It’s where you learn how to be good hosts within the community and in turn be guests. Because in that process, it’s this reciprocal relationship where Christ is both host and guest in the lives of the believers. In the Eucharistic moment, I joke with Fitch, I’m like, you got to update those circles. You need one more. And I’m like, you need a Trinitarian circle. Start with that, how the life of Trinity extends into, and then let’s move forward. Gino Curcuruto: That’s really good. Luke Stehr: Let’s write that book. Jon Massimi: That’s an update. Yeah. The fourth circle. Gino Curcuruto: The fourth circle. I like what you said earlier, that close circle, if I’m using some of your language, Jon, is where we learn to develop the palette for moving into the other circles in a sense around tables and tasting and seeing and sharing that the Lord is good. Jon Massimi: And entering into the Anglican church and liturgy has been very important for me and it grounds me as well. And the thing is, when we’re looking at even the program I entered as an Anglican and those around me, so one of the benefits I had was hearing from different traditions as well. I think there was another Pentecost, I knew how to speak the Christianese enough to understand what he was saying, right, because I grew up. But what I loved about Fitch and his approach is he also valued tradition and liturgy and saying that those are important elements of our faith that help shape our postures in the world today. So wasn’t this abandonment of, let’s just go back to tax chapter two, right? No, there’s a church history, right? Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. You’ve heard him say this, but he said this multiple times in our first seminar. You don’t make this stuff up, you don’t make this stuff up, Luke Stehr: You don’t, Gino Curcuruto: And he’s right. Luke Stehr: Gino, one more question for Jon. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, Jon. And I think as we kind of come towards our time to close here, I was wondering, it sounds like you’ve mentioned this, but maybe is there one other takeaway from the program that you’d want to share with us? Jon Massimi: Well, I would say that the importance of building relationships with other pastors. So I found that many, again, I’ve worked with Baptist, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Anglicans, et cetera, and we tend to, especially if you’re in crisis mode, you want to be so insular and saying, okay, let me just focus on the growth in my church and my experience of connecting with others in the class and seeing others’ experiences positioned me to say, well, I can learn from other traditions as well. Let me build relationships and see what God is doing in and through other leaders and other congregations. So how can we encourage and work together? And I guess this is a good comedic thing, a callback. So going back when I was supervisor of community centers, seeing all those pastors together and saying, you need to come and talk and work with each other. Because it ended up, and it wasn’t happening as much, but it could have where it was like, let’s see who can set up their brand the best rather than how can we work together for God’s glory? Gino Curcuruto: That’s so good. That’s so good. Luke Stehr: Okay. Secret surprise question. What are you reading right now? Jon Massimi: Oh my goodness. I’m really getting into spirituality and AI. I’m reading around that. So there’s a book here, Understanding Religion and Artificial Intelligence: Meaning Making in the Digital Age Luke Stehr: Gino was on a Panel about AI, and he’s totally an expert. Gino Curcuruto: I could have used that book four days ago. I was on a panel. Yeah, no, that’s fascinating. Who’s the author on that? I’m sorry. I don’t mean to put you on the spot if you have it in front. Randy Reed. Luke Stehr: Randall Reed Jon Massimi: And Tracy Rohan. Gino Curcuruto: Excellent. Jon Massimi: I I’ll show it too. It’s right here. Gino Curcuruto: There it is. Wow. Beautiful. Jon Massimi: I did listen to what Fitch was saying, I guess the first episode and how some students are going on to do other things academically. So for me, I’m in the process. I’ve applied to a program in Europe and I’m looking to write about this. So going back to my Pentecostal roots saying, how does AI shape Pentecostal memory? So we are a people of memory, and my worry is when we’re working in communities, we are no longer are able to hold memory and we’ve lost our sense of artifacts, everything’s own, right? So how are we passing on the faith in ways that are faithful and how are we accurately, or how are we holding memory? And when we’re looking at Pentecostals, eschatology is huge and they seek to interpret currently events well, if those events are already being curated through algorithms, there’s another layer of discernment that needs to occur as well. Luke Stehr: Man, that’s going to be good. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Wow. Keep going. Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt you. I was just going to say, Luke, I think we’re so new into this podcast and we already have someone that’s going to need to come on again already to talk about that whole thing. Luke Stehr: Yeah, there will be a part two, Jon, so stay tuned. Jon Massimi: Yeah, I could just upload my consciousness. Luke Stehr: I watched the show Upload and I think that’s a bad idea, but Well, Jon Massimi: And it is something for you both or whoever’s listening, I did do a class on the meaning of life in ai. So the three, I use movies to set out a framework. So the first movie is Lars and the Real Girl, the second is Her, and then the third is Ex Machina. And I brought that into conversation with Wendell Berry and he has three concepts that work there because of the draft tours package and the tractor package. And I’ll leave it at there. That’s little breadcrumbs for the next episode, man. Luke Stehr: Jon, I say this with zero sarcasm. I bet you are a lot of fun at parties, Jon Massimi: Let’s say there’s some cigars present. I refer to him as burnt offerings to make them sound like get under the radar with some people. But yeah, that’s good. We have fun. That’s so good. And the invitation to you both Luke and Gino? I do have, so I have a basement apartment, so my son lives there now, but anytime you want to stop in. Gino Curcuruto: Oh man, Jon Massimi: I invited Fitch. He came a year ago and we had a bonfire invited pastors in the area and we hung out, and then we did a Saturday night with him, and then he spoke at a church. So Gino Curcuruto: Nice. Jon Massimi: It’s slowly being referred to as the philosopher’s basement, so different people are coming and Gino Curcuruto: I’m there. I’m coming. Yeah, Luke Stehr: I make get to Canada like twice a year, so this may happen. Jon Massimi: Yeah, you’re more than welcome. And it’s in the summer. It’s a bonfire winter. We’ll figure it out. Gino Curcuruto: Well, I return the offering, but no one wants to come to the US right now. And I totally understand. But if you ever do, we’ve got a spot for you as well. Oh man. Luke Stehr: Thank you. We’re good. Well, Jon, thank you. And to everyone out there, thank you so much for listening. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com [https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Episode 06 - Dr. Michael Moore

For Context: Dr. Michael Moore Episode # 06 🎙️ Episode Overview This episode of For Context features a conversation with Dr. Mike Moore, the Dean of Northern Seminary and a graduate of the very first cohort of the Contextual Theology program. Hosts Gino and Luke dive into the history of the program, the shift from "Missional Leadership" to "Contextual Theology," and how academic rigor meets the grit of real-world ministry. Episode Highlights * The “OG” Cohort: Mike shares what it was like being the final student added to the very first missional leadership cohort—a time he jokingly refers to as the “Middle Ages” of the program. * The Van Gelder Framework: A deep dive into the influential teaching of Craig Van Gelder and the foundational concept: Who God is defines what the church is, which defines what the church does, which defines how the church organizes. * Contextualization vs. Relevance: A critical discussion on why “relevance” (pop culture references) is not the same as true “contextualization” (being deeply rooted in a specific time, place, and people). * Academic Rigor in DMin Programs: Mike pushes back against the idea of “degree mills,” explaining why the DMin at Northern requires more “substance and grit” than a traditional PhD might. Key Resources Mentioned Books * The Shape of Practical Theology by Ray Anderson – A “life-changing” book for Mike that reframes Jesus as serving the Father on behalf of the world. * Missional Map-Making by Alan Roxburgh. * The End of Evangelicalism? and The Great Giveaway by David Fitch. * Works by Stephen Bevins and Schreiter regarding the embodiment of the Gospel across time and space. Articles & Thinkers * Renita Weems’ Substack: Discussing the critique of Doctorate of Ministry degrees as “degree mills.” * Jonathan Tran: Specifically, his reflections (riffing off Luke Bretherton) regarding post-evangelicalism and church expectations. For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary [http://www.seminary.edu]. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program [https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/] (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu [http://seminary.edu]. 📚 Additional Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary [https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/] * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ [https://faithinsitu.substack.com/] 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com [https://forcontextpod.substack.com/] Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137] | Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da] (00:00:11): Welcome back to For Context. (00:00:12): I’m excited for you to hear this episode with Mike Moore. (00:00:15): I’m Gino and Luke is here. (00:00:31): He’s in the background. (00:00:32): He’s giving us a thumbs up. (00:00:34): I hope that you will enjoy this episode as we talk to Mike, (00:00:37): who is not only a graduate of the Contextual Theology Program, (00:00:41): but he currently serves as the Dean of Northern Seminary. (00:00:45): Had some great insights on the OG cohort and things that are happening now and (00:00:50): maybe some of the history. (00:00:52): So listen in and enjoy this episode with us. (00:00:57): Well, (00:00:57): today on For Context, (00:00:59): we have Dr. (00:01:00): Mike Moore, (00:01:01): who is an alum of the program, (00:01:03): but he’s also Dean of Northern Seminary, (00:01:05): a proud Chicagoan, (00:01:07): a connoisseur of yogurt, (00:01:11): and the host of another podcast that’s loosely connected to this program as well. (00:01:16): Probably more tightly connected to this program than ours, actually. (00:01:20): But we’re so glad to have you. (00:01:22): Gino’s here with us as well. (00:01:25): But welcome, Mike. (00:01:27): It’s good to be here I think about two weeks ago I ate yogurt with both of you guys (00:01:33): That’s probably true, (00:01:34): I think so And Fitch too, (00:01:36): and Fitch That’s right This is just a continuation It was interesting to watch (00:01:42): Fitch eat the yogurt And he had opinions about it Yeah, (00:01:47): he was trying to use chopsticks I’ve never seen somebody use chopsticks in yogurt (00:01:50): before It was bizarre (00:01:56): Speaking of Fitch, (00:01:57): which we’re not going to do too much, (00:01:58): but Mike spends here’s one part of his intro. (00:02:01): Mike has spent more time working closely with Fitch than most human beings. (00:02:06): So if we were Catholic, Mike would be a saint probably pretty soon. (00:02:12): That’s good. (00:02:13): I have spent a lot of time with him. (00:02:15): You know, oddly, I feel more relaxed doing this podcast than my own. (00:02:21): With him, (00:02:22): and we were joking about it earlier, (00:02:25): I do tell people a lot of times I go into the podcast and I have no idea what we’re (00:02:30): talking about. (00:02:32): And then halfway through it, I still don’t have an idea what we’re talking about. (00:02:37): But one of the advantages of now having more guests is that I can get a book and (00:02:43): that can kind of steady me a little bit. (00:02:45): There you go. (00:02:45): That’s helpful. (00:02:47): But I’m happy to be here. (00:02:48): This is quite the remarkable startup between the two of you guys. (00:02:52): It’s fun. (00:02:53): It’s been fun. (00:02:54): We’ve had a good time. (00:02:56): So am I correct in understanding that you are part of the very first cohort of this (00:03:01): program ever? (00:03:02): yeah yeah so the og missional leadership cohort right wow you guys did your (00:03:11): homework well yeah we did we had a second round cohort person on here as well so (00:03:17): we’ve learned all the things so what was it like just being a part of the first (00:03:21): cohort in this program it was like the middle ages of the cohort it (00:03:29): Things were dark and we didn’t know where we were going and there was little light. (00:03:34): Okay, so you’re jogging my memory. (00:03:38): I’m grateful for this. (00:03:41): When I joined the program as missional leadership and then about halfway through, (00:03:44): they changed it to contextual theology because even at that point, (00:03:48): missional was becoming overused. (00:03:51): I’ll admit, I had no interest in doing a doctoral program. (00:03:55): So one of the things was (00:03:59): I started to do some work for Northern, (00:04:01): helping with their community development program here in the west side of Chicago. (00:04:06): And one of the exchanges was if I worked for them, (00:04:09): then they would give me some tuition reimbursement. (00:04:12): And I was like, well, Fitch started up a doctoral program. (00:04:15): They were already one class in. (00:04:17): So I ended up getting added later into the program. (00:04:20): I was the last person added to the cohort. (00:04:24): so it’s not that I wasn’t intentional or thoughtful about doing the program it was (00:04:29): more like I don’t know I got free tuition I might as well get another degree so I (00:04:36): definitely backed into it probably with less seriousness than I should have but I (00:04:45): got on the bus and it was moving and here we are all these years later so yeah (00:04:52): What was the first class? (00:04:55): Do you remember? (00:04:55): Because you said you missed one. (00:04:57): Yeah. (00:04:58): Okay. (00:04:59): Len Harlsman? (00:05:01): I couldn’t spell that for you because it has a lot of consonants and two vowels. (00:05:06): It’s one of those names. (00:05:08): Do you guys know Len? (00:05:09): I think he’s up in Ontario. (00:05:11): I don’t know Len. (00:05:13): He has a class more on neighborhood missional engagement I’m just going to make (00:05:20): myself sound like the worst student And then people are going to be like, (00:05:24): this guy’s the dean of his summer He’s a great dean He’s a fantastic dean I’ll (00:05:30): admit this I completely phoned in that paper It was garbage I was like, (00:05:36): okay, (00:05:36): I’ve got to write a paper And I got the kind of grade that you would get if you (00:05:40): phoned in a paper in a doctoral program (00:05:44): And offhand, we were out with some people in the cohort and Fitch was with us. (00:05:49): We were grabbing drinks, you know, coffee, of course. (00:05:53): It was late at night. (00:05:54): Sure, sure, sure. (00:05:57): And I mentioned offhand the grade I got and Fitch kind of stopped and he’s like, wait, what? (00:06:02): He’s like, no, you can’t get a grade like that in this doctoral program. (00:06:08): So I had to up my game over the next five seminars. (00:06:13): Rightfully so. (00:06:14): I got put in place. (00:06:17): But yeah, the first class was with Len. (00:06:18): And then Jeff Holesklaw and Fitch taught quite a bit in the program. (00:06:24): And then we had a few other adjuncts kind of pop in. (00:06:26): Okay. (00:06:27): Okay. (00:06:27): Yeah, it was good. (00:06:29): Was there a class that was kind of like a turning point for you? (00:06:32): I mean, (00:06:33): not just like grade wise, (00:06:34): but like as far as interest, (00:06:36): because you, (00:06:37): I mean, (00:06:38): I know and get to spend time talking with you about these subjects from contextual (00:06:43): theology. (00:06:44): I know it’s not your primary work as a dean, but I know it informs what you do. (00:06:48): And so you’re no slouch. (00:06:51): I just want to say, (00:06:53): while you might be telling about how you started, (00:06:55): obviously you came out with a high degree of competency and fluency in these (00:07:01): subjects. (00:07:02): So what gives? (00:07:06): I would say a couple of things kind of clicked. (00:07:11): Are you guys familiar with Craig Van Gelder? (00:07:15): yes I don’t think Craig’s teaching as much anymore he’s certainly more reformed (00:07:19): than I am but he taught a class on kind of systems and structures of the church and (00:07:29): how you go about bringing about change and innovation it’s a little bit about what (00:07:36): Al does but Craig is just more of a systems guy (00:07:42): And I don’t think I’ve ever had a class where the professor taught the material so well. (00:07:49): I’ve had classes I liked way more. (00:07:52): Certainly material I enjoyed more. (00:07:55): I would even say professors who in their field were maybe a little more brilliant. (00:07:58): But watching Craig teach the class, it was very clear that he had beyond mastery of the content. (00:08:05): He’d been doing it for decades. (00:08:06): And it felt like something was just leading you through (00:08:10): the course content so smoothly and it’s about halfway through the class I was like (00:08:14): oh this guy is phenomenal at being a teacher and just being an instructor of the (00:08:20): content and he had a few concepts I think that I’ve come back to I’ve come back to (00:08:25): this over and over again actually I was in a cabinet meeting we did a cabinet (00:08:29): retreat last week and I brought this up in cabinet I should probably be footnoting (00:08:34): Craig for generations but (00:08:39): He has this concept that’s very simple What the church is defines what the church (00:08:45): does defines how the church organizes and I would always back it up one more and (00:08:51): say who God is so who God is is how we know what the church is that shapes what we (00:08:56): do and how we organize what we do and we talk a lot about that at Northern is like (00:09:01): you know coming back to Jesus that gives us our shape of our unique identity what (00:09:06): we do for the church and then how we organize what we do (00:09:10): For whatever reason, that just clicked in my brain. (00:09:14): And I hope nobody ever punches holes in it because my world will crumble. (00:09:18): I need that to be true. (00:09:22): Foundationally, that has to be absolutely true. (00:09:27): Oh, that’s good. (00:09:30): That class was so incredible for me. (00:09:33): But I add this too. (00:09:35): I mean, we can talk about the dissertation stuff maybe later. (00:09:39): The course has changed so much It was mostly We were doing a lot of the contextual (00:09:45): theology work From the Catholics, (00:09:48): from Bevins and Schreiter The churches, (00:09:53): the embodiment of the gospel Across different time and space And how do these (00:09:58): cultures and context match up with each other And what does it look like to be (00:10:01): faithful In a particular time with a particular people (00:10:06): But we weren’t doing as much culture studies stuff. (00:10:09): Like the culture studies stuff that you all are doing, (00:10:14): I am very envious of because we weren’t doing culture studies about race, (00:10:20): power, (00:10:21): gender, (00:10:21): sexuality. (00:10:23): Right. (00:10:23): Whereas I think like your first class was probably all about that. (00:10:27): Not all about that, but I’m guessing, you know, Fishgate. (00:10:29): We touched on it. (00:10:30): Like, did you get a grid? (00:10:31): You probably got a grid at some point. (00:10:32): Oh, we got the grid, you know, the self and all of that. (00:10:35): Great grid. (00:10:35): Definitely. (00:10:36): Love a good grid. (00:10:39): It also depends on which classes he’s teaching in the master’s program that will be (00:10:44): emphasized, (00:10:45): right? (00:10:45): I’ve learned that too. (00:10:47): I don’t mean that as a critique, (00:10:48): it’s just an observation of, (00:10:49): say, (00:10:50): if he’s teaching this sexuality class, (00:10:53): we’re going to have the examples be around that, (00:10:55): but if he’s teaching church and culture, (00:10:58): he’s going to talk about how terrible the church in America is, (00:11:03): to use his examples. (00:11:05): And those are good. (00:11:06): That’s mostly what the program was about. (00:11:08): Just how terrible the church in America is? (00:11:12): Well, he did write those books, right? (00:11:15): The End of Evangelicalism and yeah, all this, yes. (00:11:19): The Great Giveaway. (00:11:22): Yeah, that’s a good way to describe it. (00:11:23): I mean, (00:11:24): Fitch was writing, (00:11:25): it was after The Great Giveaway and as he was writing The End of Evangelicalism. (00:11:28): So most of his grids, I guess when we say grids, we’re talking about the ways that (00:11:34): Fitch Distills, different cultural movements. (00:11:37): They were mostly around ecclesiology. (00:11:39): They really weren’t about the self in power. (00:11:42): Yes. (00:11:43): So I’ve been a little envious watching you all and watching the cohorts from the (00:11:47): last 10 years get to do that. (00:11:51): If I was not on faculty and serving as the dean, (00:11:54): I don’t think I would have been aware of how much that’s shifted. (00:11:57): In that way, it feels like a completely different program. (00:12:00): Mm-hmm. (00:12:02): A really different program. (00:12:03): I think Fitch just kind of added that to his ensemble the last 10 years, (00:12:07): and that’s really been such a benefit for the work you guys are doing. (00:12:12): So yeah, (00:12:13): if I could go back, (00:12:14): like I would love to jump into some of the classes you guys have as a former grad (00:12:18): who could audit, (00:12:19): but it’s a little weird to be auditing a class of a faculty member who I will be (00:12:24): evaluating. (00:12:27): There’s a power dynamic there. (00:12:29): Yes, there is a power dynamic. (00:12:31): Go ahead, teach whatever you want. (00:12:33): By the way... You know, so it’s been a while since you worked through the coursework. (00:12:42): Are there... You know, you mentioned Van Gelder. (00:12:45): He taught for you, it sounds like. (00:12:47): Are there books or things that are kind of standing out to you? (00:12:49): Because I imagine you started the program in, what, 2012? (00:12:52): It would have been 2013? (00:12:53): So it’s been a hot minute. (00:12:56): Are there... (00:12:58): you didn’t know but now you do what are some of the readings or books or things (00:13:04): that have just kind of stayed with you beyond that Van Gelder kind of framework for (00:13:07): what the church is well certainly Al’s stuff around missional map making was huge (00:13:17): you know the books that Al wrote were all instrumental in the program so Craig and (00:13:24): Al were (00:13:26): Really giving shape to how we think about the church and how we initiate and move (00:13:31): through cultural trends Okay, (00:13:35): I’m gonna I’m gonna pull out one that I don’t think ever got assigned after my (00:13:43): program but this class this book has been life-changing for me Ray Anderson the (00:13:51): shape of practical theology (00:13:54): which I don’t think most people even know about this book Ray was a professor of (00:13:59): theology at Fuller and he’s a BART scholar and he’s obviously written extensively (00:14:09): on practical theology but also kind of like pastoral ministry he does a lot on (00:14:13): ethics and (00:14:15): And he gave a few ideas in that book that really reframe the way I even just think (00:14:20): about doing ministry. (00:14:22): As an aside, (00:14:23): you know, (00:14:24): I teach the doctoral thesis class for all the doctoral students except for this (00:14:29): program. (00:14:32): You know, okay. (00:14:33): That’s funny. (00:14:34): That’s funny. (00:14:35): Mitch wants to do his thing. (00:14:36): I respect it. (00:14:38): And I have them read Ray Anderson. (00:14:40): I just have them read a couple of chapters. (00:14:43): I’ll give you one thing. (00:14:45): I think it’s from the second chapter that was actually really helpful for my own (00:14:49): ministry he talks about how often in the church we discuss how Jesus came to serve (00:15:01): the world on behalf of the Father and that’s something that I heard quite a bit (00:15:06): especially around like Maundy Thursday which is which is next week um (00:15:12): You know, you do some foot washing and like, hey, we’re going to serve like Jesus. (00:15:15): We’re going to serve each other as Jesus would serve it. (00:15:18): But he turns that and he says, (00:15:20): it’s not that Jesus came to serve the world on behalf of the Father. (00:15:22): It’s that Jesus came to serve the Father on behalf of the world. (00:15:27): By that, Jesus is incarnated, proclaiming, announcing the kingdom. (00:15:34): That’s a very Bardian take. (00:15:36): Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it’s Bart through and through. (00:15:39): It’s like if Bart had like Twitter, and he’s like, how do I say this in like 150 characters? (00:15:45): How do I do this? (00:15:47): So rather than Jesus, (00:15:48): you know, (00:15:49): scrambling around trying to serve every single person, (00:15:52): meet their whims, (00:15:53): meet their demands, (00:15:54): and you want to sit on my left, (00:15:55): you want to sit on my right, (00:15:56): Jesus came and said, (00:15:57): this is what it looks like to live (00:16:00): in unity with the Father. (00:16:01): This is what it looks like to live under the power of the Spirit. (00:16:03): This is what the kingdom looks like. (00:16:05): I’m here serving the Father, bearing witness to what Adam was not able to do. (00:16:10): I am the new Adam. (00:16:12): This is what the kingdom looks like. (00:16:15): That just pops something off for me. (00:16:18): And I have preached that so many times, and I have footnoted him probably 80% of the time. (00:16:25): Sometimes I forget. (00:16:26): I actually did it somewhere at an academic... (00:16:30): like in an academic environment and I even had it written down like footnote him I (00:16:33): forgot to footnote him and I had some people coming to me afterwards like that is (00:16:37): so brilliant and I immediately was like well you’re going to go home and google (00:16:41): this and you’re going to find out it’s not from me it’s not me so you need to know (00:16:46): this is Ray Anderson Fuller Seminary you know rest in peace that’s great that’s (00:16:52): good that book Shape of Practical Theology by Ray Anderson highly recommend it so (00:16:59): good (00:17:00): How do you feel like the culture of the program has changed from the first cohort to now? (00:17:07): Oh, I mean, I think you all are a lot smarter than you were. (00:17:13): I’m not dunking on my classmates. (00:17:17): I just think that there’s a level of seriousness with which people approach it. (00:17:23): and part of that is I think doctorate of ministry degrees maybe 15 years ago were (00:17:29): like hey just go do it it’s the next thing if you’re bored it’d be a good step your (00:17:36): church has made pain for it it’s kind of a fun activity I think now at Northern (00:17:41): there’s like a there’s like an academic rigor with it that did not exist in the (00:17:47): past to the point where um (00:17:53): I was teaching a class on Friday for the doctoral students. (00:17:58): And a few of them were discussing how they thought about doing different degrees (00:18:03): and how they landed at Northern. (00:18:05): What I’ve begun to say is, (00:18:07): look, (00:18:09): if you can’t do a demon at Northern, (00:18:11): just go ahead and get your PhD. (00:18:16): If you can’t do it, that’s fine. (00:18:17): It’s not for everybody. (00:18:18): But you can go get your PhD somewhere where you will... (00:18:22): Okay, this is dismissive. (00:18:23): This is derisive. (00:18:24): Lord, forgive me. (00:18:25): But where you might squirrel away in your narrow band of theological research, (00:18:34): where you can talk to other academics, (00:18:36): but it might not actually meet... (00:18:38): The substance and the grit of the real world, which is where it gets really troubling. (00:18:42): Like your theology becomes so troubled when you start talking to people that don’t (00:18:46): necessarily agree with you or who embody their faith in ways that confound your (00:18:50): theological expectations. (00:18:52): So if you can’t do a demon at Northern, everybody, go ahead. (00:18:56): Just go get a PhD. (00:18:57): Go get a PhD, that’s fine. (00:18:58): Go get that PhD. (00:18:59): Yeah. (00:19:00): That’s really interesting to me. (00:19:02): I mean, (00:19:03): I hear what you’re saying, (00:19:05): and there’s something really interesting in that if you take the trajectory of the (00:19:09): program from what you said it started as, (00:19:12): like, (00:19:12): hey, (00:19:13): these are a lot of people probably just doing ministry, (00:19:15): and this is the next thing you do. (00:19:18): And now, I mean, we still have people that are involved in ministry coming in. (00:19:23): They’re not necessarily people that are, they’re not on the academic track. (00:19:28): It’s not a lot of professors coming in. (00:19:30): And so I wonder what that says about this program (00:19:33): There’s something very unique and special about this program, I believe. (00:19:35): But I wonder if that kind of starts to unearth what that might be, (00:19:38): what that special thing might be. (00:19:39): Yeah, that’s really good. (00:19:40): There’s an article on Substack a couple months ago that (00:20:03): I guess it went a little viral in some seminary circles. (00:20:08): I’m looking down because I’m trying to pull it up. (00:20:12): I think it was from Dr. Weems. (00:20:19): Oh, yeah. (00:20:20): Oh, look at that. (00:20:20): First try. (00:20:21): Renita Weems. (00:20:22): Renita Weems, yeah. (00:20:24): Is she at Emory? (00:20:26): That sounds right. (00:20:28): I think I read this article. (00:20:29): I think I did. (00:20:30): Yeah, (00:20:30): it’s about like doctorate of ministry degrees being degree mills, (00:20:35): which, (00:20:36): you know, (00:20:37): if you’re pulling back the hood a little bit for people that want to know, (00:20:41): doctorate of ministry degrees are desirable from an operational side of an (00:20:47): institution because (00:20:50): It’s a lower credit load Like you’re not doing what an MA or an MDiv would do So (00:20:55): it’s a lower credit load You move through the program relatively quickly And with a (00:20:59): lot of predictability So DMINs are good for seminaries And what can happen is You (00:21:08): can scale them very quickly And you can get people in Who maybe are 10, (00:21:14): 20 years after their MDiv And just want to get (00:21:17): want to get some more education so she was critiquing the degree mill approach (00:21:21): which I think is really necessary because there are a lot of seminaries that just (00:21:25): try to pump them out we have intentionally pushed back against that actually we had (00:21:29): a faculty retreat last year and we talked a lot about pushing back on that but I (00:21:33): think to your point Gino what you’re touching on is that there are so many cultural (00:21:40): shifts and (00:21:43): in the church world and in theological education that when students come to (00:21:47): Northern, (00:21:49): they’re asking the same, (00:21:50): but they’re also asking really different questions than they were asking when they (00:21:52): first started ministry. (00:21:54): And it does require a leveling up of the way you think about doing ministry theologically. (00:22:03): I have thought about this for myself now. (00:22:07): I mean, there’s so many things (00:22:10): that I wish I had more time to focus on when it comes to my academic work. (00:22:18): Because when I did my MDiv, (00:22:21): when I graduated in 2008, (00:22:22): and then I graduated from this program in, (00:22:24): I don’t know, (00:22:25): almost over 10 years ago, (00:22:27): it just changed so much. (00:22:29): And so I even feel like I’m a little behind on some things. (00:22:34): So I imagine a lot of people who are in my place who, you know, I’m in my 40s. (00:22:41): Well, what’s it going to be like 10 years from now? (00:22:43): What’s it going to be 20 years from now? (00:22:44): What’s it going to be like 30 years from now? (00:22:47): And we want to continue to have those conversations. (00:22:49): And the one thing the church isn’t great at and seminary is not great at is we (00:22:52): don’t know how to shape those conversations outside of a degree program always. (00:22:58): Yeah. (00:22:59): Yeah. (00:23:00): That’s a growing edge for us to figure out. (00:23:04): I think that contextual theology as an idea, (00:23:10): as a concept, (00:23:11): as a way of seeing and thinking about things can be taught in one regard, (00:23:18): but then you’re talking about the content, (00:23:20): like what do we need to know? (00:23:22): To form a contextual theology. (00:23:24): So for me in Philadelphia, (00:23:27): I don’t know that if I hadn’t gone through the MA program and now in this, (00:23:31): I don’t know that I would even understand or have a frame to understand. (00:23:37): all the complexities of the cultures around me. (00:23:40): And I haven’t even talked about leaving my house yet, by the way. (00:23:43): I’m just talking about me as a parent, as a husband. (00:23:47): But even then when we step outside as a neighbor and all of that, it is complex. (00:23:52): And so if I went through a program that was just saying, (00:23:55): we’re going to teach you contextual theology and I was just going to start giving (00:23:59): value that there are differences, (00:24:01): that still doesn’t go far enough. (00:24:04): I need to talk about what those things really are and that’s what I feel like you (00:24:08): kind of mentioned that of saying like things are changing things have if not to say (00:24:12): you are behind the times that’s not what I’m trying to say I’m saying there is (00:24:17): actual content within the contextual theology that needs to be interrogated and I (00:24:23): think that’s one of the unique things about this program is that we actually do (00:24:26): that absolutely yeah that’s a good way to put it (00:24:29): Yeah, (00:24:30): so kind of as you think about the future, (00:24:32): not necessarily for the institution, (00:24:34): but just for contextual theology as a discipline, (00:24:39): how do you see contextual theology maybe moving forward? (00:24:43): Like, why does it remain essential? (00:24:45): I mean, (00:24:46): you guys aren’t going to toot your horns, (00:24:47): but both of you were presenting papers last week. (00:25:09): at the Ethnography and Ecclesiology Conference for why it matters. (00:25:13): So in some regards, I think you guys can make a better argument. (00:25:16): But this is maybe not the most helpful move. (00:25:23): I can imagine theologians and academics in different disciplines rolling their eyes (00:25:27): at what I’m going to say. (00:25:28): But here we are. (00:25:34): Everybody’s doing contextual theology. (00:25:37): This is a little bit of a universalizing move So I recognize that I might be (00:25:40): betraying my own convictions and my discipline But everybody’s doing contextual (00:25:47): theology The question is just whether or not you know it And whether or not you’re (00:25:52): doing it well So if there is a theological move where people are continuing to (00:25:59): abstract (00:26:03): I think the church is really going to be to be hurting and to be suffering what I (00:26:10): really want pastors and practitioners to think about is what is what’s unique about (00:26:17): my call and my place and how am I supposed to be faithful in that context I always (00:26:23): tell students I’m like you’re the expert I don’t know I don’t know your church as (00:26:28): well as you know it I don’t know your neighborhood your block as well as you know (00:26:30): it (00:26:32): And I really want the students at Northern to think deeply about those things. (00:26:40): I’m making this connection in my mind. (00:26:41): I don’t know where it will go. (00:26:42): But I visited a friend’s church a couple years ago. (00:26:47): And afterwards we went out to eat. (00:26:50): And he wasn’t on leadership. (00:26:53): He was a member of the church, though. (00:26:54): And asked me what I thought. (00:26:56): And asked me, like, what did you really think? (00:26:59): My takeaway was... (00:27:01): Great people I loved being there But I had no idea where your church was I could (00:27:07): have been anywhere I could have been in San Jose, (00:27:10): California I could have been in Austin I could have been in Minneapolis I could (00:27:14): have been in Virginia Beach Because there was nothing about the church About the (00:27:21): service Even just the way it was designed Where it was That gave me a sense of (00:27:27): place (00:27:29): It was really abstracted And even I would say the sermon and the theology of what (00:27:35): was preached there was very abstracted It felt like it just kind of dropped in And (00:27:41): I think churches that are shaped by abstraction like that (00:27:47): Really are missing the opportunity to disciple people and to evangelize people in (00:27:51): their context. (00:27:53): So I think it’s really important that people are able to, (00:27:56): you know, (00:27:57): we’ll say exegete your context well faithfully. (00:28:02): Can we talk about that some more? (00:28:03): Yeah, (00:28:04): let’s go Because what I hear in that is that sounds like restaurant franchises (00:28:12): where they just simply want people to be familiar with things but it’s not (00:28:17): necessarily the height of a cultural experience to have the exact same burger in (00:28:24): Minneapolis and Virginia and all of that (00:28:27): But at the same time, (00:28:29): at the same time, (00:28:30): I’m trying to be sympathetic to that church in some ways, (00:28:33): saying like, (00:28:34): what... (00:28:35): What are the boundaries for where you can contextualize within a liturgy? (00:28:42): So maybe you could speak more to that. (00:28:44): Because you don’t want to just have cultural shout-outs. (00:28:49): It’s not like you’re just citing pop culture. (00:28:52): That’s not what you’re implying. (00:28:55): That’s not what you’re saying. (00:28:56): The latest whatever album that came out or what’s happening at the Super Bowl halftime show. (00:29:02): You’re not... (00:29:05): I think we need to distinguish here there’s a difference between maybe relevance as (00:29:08): we would call it in some circles versus contextuality or contextualization. (00:29:15): So relevance does not equal contextualization. (00:29:18): Right. (00:29:19): I think that’s good. (00:29:20): And that’s what I hear from you, Mike. (00:29:22): I’m wondering if you could help us and the listeners kind of think about what would (00:29:26): maybe maybe this is the wrong way to ask it, (00:29:28): but what would you have liked to have seen in that context? (00:29:34): Yeah, that’s good. (00:29:35): Yeah. (00:29:35): And I, to your point, I’m pretty cautious about just dunking on churches. (00:29:42): Sure. (00:29:42): Because I have a lot of people that have done that at churches I’ve led. (00:29:45): And we love the church. (00:29:47): Yes. (00:29:47): And we do love the church. (00:29:48): Yeah. (00:29:49): I definitely don’t want to be shaped by some kind of angst. (00:29:54): Mm-hmm. (00:29:55): You know, Jonathan Chan wrote this great article about this. (00:29:58): He’s kind of riffing off of Luke Brotherton. (00:30:00): And when Jonathan Tran is talking about what I would call post-evangelicals, (00:30:06): his question is, (00:30:07): well, (00:30:07): what did you expect? (00:30:09): What did you think the church was? (00:30:14): The church is full of people. (00:30:17): We definitely don’t get it right. (00:30:19): Yeah, yeah, yeah. (00:30:20): So I always want to be cautious with any critiques. (00:30:26): I think one of the things I thought of with this church in particular... (00:30:31): It was a small church plant that sadly had to close their doors a couple years after COVID. (00:30:37): But I thought a lot about the music and the music required a backing track and (00:30:45): backing tracks are really great if you want to fill out sound and if you don’t have (00:30:49): musicians. (00:30:52): Man, I had a church plant. (00:30:55): What’s the piano with the mouth? (00:30:58): Like two Have you ever seen that instrument? (00:31:01): Yes Yeah Like you’re blowing into the piano It’s like I know what it looks like I (00:31:06): don’t know what it’s called I don’t know what it’s called Yeah Anyhow I was part of (00:31:09): a church And like we led worship with that And with somebody on a djembe Like that (00:31:14): was it That’s all we had So I get it Yeah Yeah But what I walked away from With (00:31:20): this church was like Oh This church is referencing another church As to what (00:31:26): faithfulness looks like (00:31:28): It’s almost like they are pointing outside themselves to like, (00:31:31): this is what we’ve seen on YouTube or this is the videos of what we think it looks (00:31:37): like to faithfully worship in music and song. (00:31:40): And I would even say like the sermon to some degree felt like it was shouting over (00:31:47): the people in the congregation. (00:31:49): I mean, (00:31:51): to the point where I thought I’m like, (00:31:52): you probably don’t need amplification with this many people. (00:31:55): Mm-hmm. (00:31:55): Mm-hmm. (00:31:56): Mm-hmm. (00:31:58): It felt like there was a sense of like, (00:31:59): we’re not doing church if we don’t do church the way that we have seen kind of (00:32:06): mainstream evangelical Christianity do it. (00:32:09): Yes. (00:32:10): And one of the things I ran into quite a bit, (00:32:14): and this is actually what I wrote my dissertation on the church I had planted, (00:32:19): which is a college church. (00:32:22): For years, we had people visiting us and asking us how we did what we did. (00:32:27): and the implication was how do we replicate this and I gave them some ideas some (00:32:32): practices but I also said you’re probably not going to be able to do this and it’s (00:32:37): not because we’re so special it’s because this is a very particular embodiment of (00:32:41): the church and there are certainly some practices and principles that can be (00:32:46): carried on but it’s not going to look like us (00:32:50): So I really hope that churches aren’t looking elsewhere for a reference. (00:32:55): It’s almost like in junior high, (00:32:57): I remember going to the junior high dance, (00:33:01): and I was not a good dancer, (00:33:02): and I was still not a good dancer. (00:33:03): But my big problem was I lacked the confidence to dance. (00:33:07): So I remember you’re on the dance floor, (00:33:10): and there’s these little circles, (00:33:11): and you’re not really dancing. (00:33:12): You’re kind of just making fun of each other. (00:33:14): But everybody would watch my one friend, Greg, because Greg danced... (00:33:19): like nobody was watching and you know so you kind of dance and you’re kind of (00:33:24): looking at Greg and you’re like am I doing it right and like everybody’s just like (00:33:27): looking around am I doing it right am I doing it right this high level of (00:33:32): consciousness if you’re actually being if you’re being evaluated and if you’re (00:33:38): doing it correctly yeah so when you’re in a church like that you get the sense that (00:33:42): there’s not I guess I (00:33:47): a level of satisfaction with how God has called them to embody the gospel yeah I’m (00:33:54): building on some theories that are stirring in my mind kind of following our (00:33:57): conversation with Johnny which was so good but you know I think you know we talked (00:34:03): about how architecture like in the absence of significant architecture like (00:34:07): physical buildings stained glass like there’s not much to signify that a modern day (00:34:12): church building in American culture is (00:34:16): Anything distinct Like a third space in a strip mall Or something like this And so (00:34:24): I talked about with Johnny, (00:34:27): the words we use in a sermon are theological signifiers to signify tribe, (00:34:31): but I think also we’re moving maybe post-word into like, (00:34:36): is it the worship music? (00:34:37): Is it these expressions? (00:34:39): Is it this way that we’re trying to copy each other? (00:34:42): And I think some of that’s tied up in we’re still holding to an attractional model of church. (00:34:46): And so in order to signify to people that we are a good church, (00:34:51): we’re a faithful church, (00:34:52): we’re the kind of tribe you’d want to be a part of, (00:34:54): there are these signifiers, (00:34:58): worship music styles, (00:35:01): lighting, (00:35:02): all these things that signify like, (00:35:03): hey, (00:35:03): no, (00:35:04): this is, (00:35:04): we’re this, (00:35:06): we are the cultural expectation, (00:35:08): please come in to what this is because you know what it is. (00:35:12): But that’s built on a (00:35:14): it’s christians from other areas or other churches coming to your church and just (00:35:17): continuing to move around yes so the the lack of place and contextualization was (00:35:25): not necessarily because of a lack of saying things that would make them distinctly (00:35:32): that place but that they were trying to be somewhere they weren’t in the sense of (00:35:37): like yeah yeah (00:35:39): Well it’s comforting you know I think about Fitch he’s gonna go to McDonald’s (00:35:43): everywhere he goes because he doesn’t have to think about the coffee menu (00:35:48): And that’s why McDonald’s works the way it works. (00:35:52): I mean, people have written, I think, about the McDonaldization of church as an easy target. (00:35:56): But there is a comfort for people knowing, (00:35:58): like, (00:35:58): I walk into a space and I know what the space is because it’s just like this space (00:36:03): in California or South Carolina or wherever it may be. (00:36:08): But it just happens to be in this, you know, rented space in a strip mall in Chicago or... (00:36:14): Yeah, (00:36:15): I think that’s really helpful, (00:36:18): Mike, (00:36:18): because with people that might be listening, (00:36:21): hearing that one of the ways to contextualize is to actually be where you really (00:36:26): are and don’t necessarily attempt. (00:36:29): Well, (00:36:30): and contextually, (00:36:31): the appeal is, (00:36:31): are you trying to appeal to some sort of internet-style Christian culture? (00:36:55): Or are you trying to appeal to the people who actually live in your area? (00:36:59): And appeal is a strange word here, (00:37:01): but are you trying to be contextual to your local geography and culture? (00:37:04): Are you trying to be relevant to some sort of perceived internet Christian culture? (00:37:11): Yeah. (00:37:12): Yeah. (00:37:13): I mean, we could riff on Christian music and worship. (00:37:16): I won’t go down that rabbit hole. (00:37:17): I mean, I could just go for a long time on that. (00:37:24): I was thinking about it this is this is related that in the last my last semester (00:37:29): at Northern in the master’s program I redid this office in my basement and I got (00:37:34): this paneling that looks like the paneling that almost every YouTube (00:37:38): influencer uses and it was because it was on sale and I was getting texts from (00:37:43): people in the zoom class like did you do that for your sermon I’ve actually (00:37:47): reconfigured my office because of what that paneling was signifying to people that (00:37:53): I was aiming to do so I’m when you when you open it up to those kind of cultural (00:37:59): references it’s really important to me that I’m not trying to put off this image of (00:38:05): what that I’m not that I am not (00:38:09): Wow, I want to see what your office view used to look like now. (00:38:13): I’ll send you the YouTube videos from some of those last classes. (00:38:17): Dolan Empoliu, he’s got really colorful strip lights that he just does not have on right now. (00:38:22): Oh yeah, that’s true. (00:38:23): From a church that closed, I have colored strip lights in my office. (00:38:27): I can turn it to Good Friday red really quick, man. (00:38:31): Okay. (00:38:32): Not yet. (00:38:34): Not yet. (00:38:34): Too soon. (00:38:35): Too soon. (00:38:36): Mike, you mentioned your thesis. (00:38:38): Can we talk a little bit about that? (00:38:39): Spend a little bit of time? (00:38:40): What was it on? (00:38:41): And I mean, you said it was on the church. (00:38:44): You planned it at the college. (00:38:46): So what was that kind of the focus? (00:38:48): Your research question? (00:38:49): I’m actually kind of embarrassed for both of you that you haven’t read it yet. (00:38:53): It’s kind of shocking. (00:38:56): Send it my way You didn’t stumble upon it at some point in all your doctoral research? (00:39:05): Okay, (00:39:05): yeah, (00:39:05): so I got kind of fixated on something when I was doing the doctoral program and at (00:39:12): the same time I was planting a church and actually I was part of planting two (00:39:15): churches but the one church in particular is a university church I know Gino, (00:39:22): you know the pastors that are there now so (00:39:25): Long story short I went to Loyola University to do some campus ministry and got (00:39:30): really integrated with the with the university system became like a contracted like (00:39:38): pastor so functionally the church looks like an intervarsity Christian fellowship (00:39:43): but but it is a church of all college students and the students that were there (00:39:52): 10 years ago are now the pastors and now they’re raising up the next generation (00:39:56): which is crazy we just celebrated 16 years a couple weeks ago and I went there and (00:40:02): I preached and I’m telling you my jokes do not land like they used to (00:40:06): It was the first time where I felt like I was dying on the vine. (00:40:13): I was doing an intro and I was like, oh my gosh, this is really becoming kind of awkward. (00:40:17): And I was eventually able to save it. (00:40:18): I was able to save it. (00:40:19): That’s good. (00:40:22): But I really became convicted that it wasn’t church indeed. (00:40:27): And I noticed how whenever we talk about college ministry, (00:40:32): men’s ministry, (00:40:33): women’s ministry, (00:40:34): we’re talking about the church. (00:40:36): But when we talk about campus ministry, we’re talking about the parachurch. (00:40:43): And so part of my critique was about the parachurch and how I think that’s a really (00:40:47): unhelpful distinction. (00:40:49): And the way this came up was a student came to faith in our ministry. (00:40:54): He asked me, how do you get baptized? (00:40:56): And I said, well, church baptizes you. (00:40:58): And he’s like, well, what church should I go to? (00:41:01): I can email some of the churches around here to get baptized. (00:41:04): And I was like, well, (00:41:06): You know, we’re doing Bible study. (00:41:08): We’re like doing a small group. (00:41:09): We eat together a couple of times throughout the week. (00:41:12): We’re fellowshipping. (00:41:14): You became a Christian through your lab partner who is part of one of our ministries. (00:41:20): I’m like, I think we’re the ones who would baptize you. (00:41:24): Like, why would I send this 18 year old down the street to join a church? (00:41:30): and be part of a service once a week when there are a hundred college students (00:41:35): worshiping on campus every single week. (00:41:39): So part of my dissertation is making the argument that it is indeed a church and (00:41:45): what is required to be the church. (00:41:47): I’ll say as an aside, the people that have the hardest time with this are evangelicals. (00:41:53): The people who find it to be the easiest are the Catholics. (00:41:56): Yeah, right. (00:41:58): Like the Catholic chaplains like (00:42:02): I didn’t have to explain it to them. (00:42:04): They assumed that’s what it was. (00:42:06): They’re like, well, why would any part of a ministry not be part of the church? (00:42:11): Why would you break those two things up? (00:42:15): They never had to be argued that it was a church. (00:42:17): They’re just like, oh yeah, you’re part of a tradition. (00:42:19): You do church things. (00:42:21): Yeah. (00:42:23): The people that we had the hardest time with is the denomination of the Christian (00:42:25): Reformed Church, (00:42:26): which didn’t have a kind of a polity imagination for that. (00:42:31): So I was spinning on that stuff. (00:42:34): I guess the last thing I will say is one of the things that really unlocked it for (00:42:37): me, (00:42:38): which has become a major conversation topic in the last 10 years, (00:42:42): is doing work around liberalism. (00:42:46): Liberalism being the philosophy of the individuated self, (00:42:49): the unencumbered self, (00:42:50): the autonomous individual. (00:42:52): And I would critique how the powers and systems of higher education were (00:42:58): counter-formation to the practices of the church. (00:43:03): And how what the university does is it’s not just a marketplace of ideas, (00:43:08): but it’s a marketplace of ideas. (00:43:12): of students where the university tries to distinguish themselves from other (00:43:17): universities in order to bring in some revenue and become a profit institution that (00:43:24): then puts students in the position of having to chase after the goals of capitalism (00:43:30): rather than the goals of the kingdom. (00:43:34): So Howard Watson wrote this book, The State and the University. (00:43:39): There’s another book by William Cavanaugh called Conflicting Allegiances, (00:43:42): but those books really were the linchpin for... (00:43:45): Big William Cavanaugh fans over here. (00:43:47): Yeah. (00:43:47): William Cavanaugh. (00:43:48): Torture in the Eucharist Top 10 books Amazing You told me about that Mike and I (00:43:55): read that a few years ago I was going to say Luke He was setting me up for my (00:44:00): Hauerwas Like every episode I have to mention Hauerwas Well you mentioned it But (00:44:05): William Kavanaugh But you said Kavanaugh too And now Luke’s all excited (00:44:10): Oh, (00:44:10): I love William Kavanaugh I probably just put everybody asleep No, (00:44:15): no, (00:44:16): no, (00:44:16): no, (00:44:16): no We are wide awake We’re wide awake I wanted to Actually, (00:44:19): I know we’re kind of pushing near the end of the time But I wanted to I wanted to (00:44:24): kind of reflect on that Just from some things that I observed I was a new Christian (00:44:30): And connected to a campus ministry That’s not how I came to faith But I had friends (00:44:35): that led one I was in a college town (00:44:38): And I really couldn’t understand this new thing that I was experiencing, (00:44:43): the church, (00:44:44): and this thing I was experiencing over here that was a parachurch ministry. (00:44:49): So what it felt like to me, (00:44:52): my observation was, (00:44:53): oh, (00:44:53): you guys just don’t like the church and you don’t like the parachurch. (00:44:57): Because what you said is really helpful to me. (00:45:00): Isn’t that just the church? (00:45:01): Yeah. (00:45:03): Is it that you’re just doing church light and you don’t want some of the (00:45:05): responsibilities or is there something else going on and so it makes perfect sense (00:45:09): to me that it would be evangelicals that couldn’t understand this because they’re (00:45:13): just trying to get you in on Sunday and that’s not all evangelicals but that’s how (00:45:18): they determine church whereas the Catholic way of like (00:45:23): life together is something a little bit different than just a Sunday service. (00:45:29): So where you attend on Sundays determines the church for some versus who you spend life with. (00:45:35): Which is a very clumsy ecclesiology versus a really robust ecclesiology. (00:45:40): It is. (00:45:41): It is. (00:45:41): But it’s a really good way of coming about naming that for us, I think. (00:45:47): It’s really interesting to me. (00:45:49): I mean, we kind of stumbled into it. (00:45:51): I mean, we were gathering for two years until we ever had a worship service. (00:45:56): I mean, that was never the goal. (00:45:58): It wasn’t to have a worship service. (00:46:00): But I do think the critique comes down to some of it’s about money. (00:46:05): But the other thing is about intergenerational relationships. (00:46:09): So I always admit, if you’re part of the church is called Agape. (00:46:14): Agape and Ecclesia in Rogers Park at Loyola. (00:46:18): So I’ll be really candid and I’ll say if you’re part of this church you’re not (00:46:22): really going to have intergenerational relationships for a couple years Also you (00:46:28): will not be here for longer than four years You’ll be here nine months out of the (00:46:33): year So this church is absolutely limited If it’s important that you be in that (00:46:38): kind of context where there can maybe be some more mentorship I mean we absolutely (00:46:42): had mentorship and we have mentors Then you need to go to a different church Mm-hmm (00:46:47): But just like I wouldn’t go to a church down the road and say, (00:46:51): you’re all white, (00:46:52): so this isn’t the church. (00:46:54): Or like the church out in the far suburbs, (00:46:58): you have 40 people and everybody’s over the age of 60. (00:47:01): We wouldn’t say that’s not the church. (00:47:03): So we’re not going to say to 100 college students, well, this isn’t the church. (00:47:09): We will say you are limited in some ways. (00:47:12): You’re going to be more immature. (00:47:13): You’re going to have less experience. (00:47:14): You’re going to have less money. (00:47:16): but this is still a faithful embodiment and the reason we would do that is because (00:47:20): then when we send students out we want them to do the exact same thing in their (00:47:24): context so if I send them to Philly if I send them down to Texas I’m going to say (00:47:28): find a church in your neighborhood become part of it do all the things that you did (00:47:32): here but you’re still part of the church we would say you’re not waiting to (00:47:38): graduate to become part of the church you’re part of the church now yeah that’s (00:47:41): good nice okay last question what are you reading right now (00:47:46): Oh, that’s a good question Okay, I just finished (00:47:52): okay guys I’ve been reading a lot of fiction that’s great we want to hear it we (00:47:56): want to hear it well okay well I actually am also reading I have a literature (00:47:59): degree let’s talk about it do you really I didn’t know that well you guys know this (00:48:05): one Bo Lim oh so good contextual okay I highly recommend pairing that book with (00:48:12): Mark Glanville’s Preaching in a New Key they fit so well together okay that’s my (00:48:17): aside (00:48:19): I need to read that before tomorrow because we’re interviewing him. (00:48:24): I just finished A Gentleman in Moscow, which is a piece of fiction. (00:48:29): And then, okay, I gotta give this book a recommendation. (00:48:32): I’m reading it again. (00:48:33): Or listen to it on audio. (00:48:35): The book How to Stay Married by Harrison Scott Key, which is a memoir, satire. (00:48:40): Yes, I’ve read that. (00:48:42): It is the funniest thing. (00:48:45): He has some chapters that have nothing to do with his marriage. (00:48:48): They’re just theological reflections because he’s a professor of English at SCUD? (00:48:55): Savannah’s... Where is that school? (00:49:00): Anyhow, I think that’s going to be SCUD. (00:49:01): Savannah College of Art and Design. (00:49:02): SCUD? (00:49:03): Boom. (00:49:03): Got it. (00:49:04): Yeah. (00:49:05): That book is so funny. (00:49:07): And he has some sections where he’s just waxing and waning theologically that are (00:49:10): absolutely beautiful. (00:49:12): Okay, Fitch is going to disagree with me. (00:49:13): I recommended him this book and he got through the first 10 pages and he’s like, (00:49:17): I couldn’t do it. (00:49:19): For me, it is how Hauerwas talks about marriage actually embodied. (00:49:24): It is the best example, I think, of embodied marriage. (00:49:28): It takes all the theology and lives it out. (00:49:30): And you will laugh (00:49:32): So hard and you will probably cry How to Stay Married by Harrison Scott Key (00:49:37): Fantastic book It also has some If I remember correctly I read it a few years ago (00:49:43): It has some great Reflections on Ecclesiological structures And what they mean For (00:49:50): embodied relationships To withstand Some of those when you find yourself Married to (00:49:56): the stranger you didn’t think you married Yep (00:50:02): Thanks for bringing that one up Thanks for being nerdy with us Oh man, (00:50:07): you guys are great I love that you guys are doing this Also, (00:50:12): great questions I wish Fitch and I could have this kind of rapport I mean, (00:50:16): fantastic Would you mind telling him that we have a great radio presence? (00:50:23): Yes, (00:50:23): episode one, (00:50:25): it scarred us for life that we were not radio-y enough, (00:50:29): which I think is code for we’re just too nice and like mutual in our relationship. (00:50:35): Yeah, yeah. (00:50:36): I don’t need to put you guys down to get lifted up. (00:50:38): You guys are doing great. (00:50:41): Well, we will end the show and then we’ll read some reviews out loud of your show. (00:50:51): What a delight What an amazing idea this podcast is It’s been fun Thanks for being (00:50:59): here Thank you This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com [https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

13. mai 202651 min

Episode 04 - Jonny Morrison

For Context: Dr. Jonny Morrison Episode # 04 🎙️ Episode Overview On this episode, we welcome another program grad in Jonny Morrison. Jonny is a pastor, writer, and church planter based in Salt Lake City, Utah. He’s known for his integration of theology, culture, and everyday life in ways that are thoughtful, creative, and accessible. Whether preaching, writing, or hosting conversations, Jonny is passionate about helping people develop a bigger imagination for God, experience the radical love of Jesus, and learn to recognize and join God’s work in their everyday lives. This conversation digs deep into the class on leadership from Dr. Alan Roxburgh. From there we discuss atonement theories and contextual theology. Another brilliant guest and discussion. Listen in! For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary [http://www.seminary.edu]. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program [https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/] (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu [http://seminary.edu]. 📚 Resources * Jonny Morrison: Prodigal Gospel [https://jonnymorrison.substack.com/] * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary [https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/] * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ [https://faithinsitu.substack.com/] 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com [https://forcontextpod.substack.com/] * Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137] | Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da] Episode Transcript Gino Curcuruto: I am Gino Curcuruto Luke Stehr: I’m Luke Stehr Gino Curcuruto: And you’re listening to For Context, Luke Stehr: A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. Gino Curcuruto: On this episode of For Context, we have Jonny Morrison. He’s a graduate of the Contextual Theology program. He’s a pastor, a writer, a church planter based in Salt Lake City, Utah. And whether he’s preaching, writing, or hosting conversations, Jonny is passionate about helping people develop a bigger imagination for God, experience the radical love of Jesus, and learn to recognize and join God’s work in their everyday lives. This was a fantastic conversation and I hope that you will listen in and enjoy it yourselves. Welcome back to For Context. I’m Gino. Luke’s here with me. You want to say hi, Luke? Usually I talk Luke Stehr: Hey everyone, all five listeners. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Our guest today is Johnny Morrison. Jonny, excited to have you on. Would love for you to just maybe introduce yourself to our listeners and we’ll tell ‘em why we’re having you on later, but I think it’ll become very self-evident as you speak. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, yeah. It’s so good to be with you both. Excited to be a part of the podcast, as you said. I’m Jonny, I’m in Salt Lake City, Utah. I’m a pastor of a church here called Missio Day, written a couple books, Prodigal Gospel and Light Is Air, and I was in the doctor of Ministry contextual theology program, graduated in 2021, so I think I got a walk right after COVID, which I feel very grateful for. So we actually got to walk. We were masked, but we got to walk, Gino Curcuruto: But you got to walk Jonny Morrison: And none of our classes were disrupted by COVID, so nothing was on Zoom. Everything was in person. I wrote during COVID. I was kind of like the perfect cohort for that moment. That’s a great window. Yeah, it was perfect. We went to a Cubs game. This is not what you asked, I’m sorry. Gino Curcuruto: No, this is great. Tell the story. in Chicago when we were there to graduate and it was the first Cubs game that was open to the community, so the energy was insane. It was the best time to graduate. There was so many people there. Bill Murray comes out and sings “Take Me out to the Ball Game.” It’s like the city opens for a moment and then I get a walk and I was like, this is the best experience That is the first good story around COVID and education I think I’ve ever heard. So thank you. My heart is warmed. Luke Stehr: You just, like, hit that window perfectly. Jonny Morrison: I just feel so grateful because then I was with them, I was talking to some friends who did the program almost right afterwards, like Jim Pace and they were on lockdown for so long and they had one of my favorite classes they had to do on Zoom and it sounds like it was one of the worst classes because they had to do it on Zoom with Roxburgh. But I loved that class and I loved being with him. That’s why I was like, that would be brutal. Gino Curcuruto: Also, that class, that particular section of that class is kind of legendary in the lore of Northern Seminary. Yes, Luke Stehr: That’s probably another podcast. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, I won’t go into it. Luke, you could ask Jonny a question, change the subject. Luke Stehr: Well, while we’re on the subject, what was your favorite class? That’s one of the questions we would’ve asked at one point, so we’ll just get into it now. So why was your time with Alan Roxburgh so formative? What stands out to you about that class? Jonny Morrison: I loved my time with Roxburgh. That class I thought was so helpful. Roxburgh was so the way he thought was so helpful to me, he could think so historically, so contextually and he had such a power of narrative, historical narrative to be able to lead us to a moment in time. And I’m in the program at such a fascinating moment. I mean everybody probably says this, but I’m in the program at such a fascinating moment. I start 2017, 2018, so I’m the everybody’s wrestling with how did the Evangelicals vote for Trump? Everybody’s wrestling with what is this doing to our communities? And then we’re about to enter into, well, we’re already entering into Black Lives Matter movements. We’re entering into a reckoning with racial and gender justice in the church and then the pandemic is about to happen. And I felt like Roxburgh, I’d read lots on race, I’d read lots on critical theory. What Roxburgh did though was give me a historical accounting that I felt was so helpful to hold those things together. It was like, I mean to do contextual theology and then to give tools, which is Fitch does this very well too, but to give tools about engaging in the neighborhood really well, and I loved the level of rigor that Roxburgh required. So Roxboro was also my supervisor on my thesis and I loved working with him again, which I was warned against it. People were like, “he’s really intense.” I was just grateful. I was like, He sent my proposal back to me like fourteen times though that’s not even an exaggeration. It just kept coming back again. I felt pretty grateful for. I’m still really proud of my thesis in the end, but that was my favorite class maybe by far. Luke Stehr: That’s awesome. So for people who maybe have never thought about contextual theology, have never read anything by Alan Roxburgh, how would you give a Cliff Notes version of his accounting of history that you referenced? Jonny Morrison: That’s a good question. So Roxburgh’s work is broad and I think that you could, there’s a lot of things that he’s talking about, but a lot of what he is wrestling with is the leadership structures of churches and maybe you could say the corporatization of local churches and the professionalization of clergy and how did clergy become sort of a management class versus stewards of the spirit. And that’s I think so much of his work if I was to simplify it is about that, like, when did seminary become about training managers and executors versus training midwives and artisans? And one of the languages is detectives of Divinity Roxburgh’s also a real poetic, which I’m such a sucker for. And so that’s so much of his work and I found that that’s ended up being what I wrote on in my own thesis is that was the exact question I was wrestling with in our local context is why did we have the imagination for pastoral leadership that we did and what were the other options available to us? Gino Curcuruto: I want to dig, Question into ask. Luke Stehr: That was a beautiful answer to that question. Gino Curcuruto: Beautiful. I do want to get into a little bit more about your thesis, but first, if it’s okay, I kind of want to hang out in this Roxburgh space. Jonny Morrison: I’m happy, I love it. Gino Curcuruto: It it’s, it’s great timing. That was our last seminar and so full disclosure, Luke Stehr: We’re working on our papers for him, Gino Curcuruto: We’re working on our papers. He also Luke Stehr: Subscribes to this, so if you’re listening, Dr. Roxburgh have mercy on us. Gino Curcuruto: I found his class very similar. It was fantastic. And his ability to just put any, he was just asking us what’s on your mind? What are you experiencing is what it felt like. Then he would just go back in history and bring us up to the current time, whatever the subject was. The breadth of his knowledge and his ability to put it inside of a narrative like you’ve said was amazing. I’m also thinking that if you’re not thinking as a contextual theologian, you may totally miss the value of what he’s doing as just a guy telling stories. Jonny Morrison: Yeah. Gino Curcuruto: Does that make sense? Yeah. Jonny Morrison: Oh, Gino Curcuruto: Totally. Jonny Morrison: It’s almost like a history class if you don’t understand contextual theology. Gino Curcuruto: And because he’s a more seasoned, experienced theologian and philosopher, it’s just like, here’s the old guy telling us stories from the old days, but that’s not at all what he’s doing and his ability to give us maps for things and be poetic. And so I’m not sitting here just trying to compliment Al Roxburgh, though I will. I was just going to say, I think that the idea of it being contextual theology that he’s inside of what he’s doing, his leadership teaching is really important and I think that some people, I won’t speak for anyone in our class, but I’d wonder if historically through this, if there have been people that have missed that and just thought, “That class was just a bunch of stories. Let’s move on to the next one.” Jonny Morrison: Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. I think that people, when we did the cohort, I remember people wrestling with his reading list. It was, I don’t know if it’s the same list, but you had books like Cosmopolis and you had some other ones that were sort of narrative historical accountings of the philosophical moment that we find ourselves in. And I think people often wrestled with, this is not kind of as you named, it’s not straight theology and it’s not even about our moment. And so then I think people were like, “Well, what does this have to do with now?” But I do feel like Roxburgh was giving us a map of all the wilderness spaces sort of around the moment so that we could kind of find our way and understand how we got to where we are. And again, I found myself so dependent and so thankful for his work and for Cosmopolis is the one that comes to my mind. I referenced it a ton in my thesis to understand how we got to the modern moment and then the bibliography shaped so much of my later research and reading and even the paper that I wrote for that class, which was probably fine, but it had such an impact on my thesis later where I don’t know that many of the other papers I wrote so directly impacted it. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, that’s good. I think he has updated the list a little bit, but I happen to be familiar with that book from another class that I took and had to read. So that Cosmopolis is great, but I could imagine if that’s the book and you’re doing a history of philosophical thought into modernity that you’re going, “Where’s the theology bro? What are we doing here?” Jonny Morrison: What was the other one? I probably have it somewhere. It was something at the eye and it was about the, I remember it was such a large part of it was about the development of grid systems in Europe and roadways. Do you have it? Gino Curcuruto: Yes. Seeing Like a State Luke Stehr: We we’re talking about Seeing Like a Stat which basically the premise if you don’t want to read this book, which you should, is basically clarity only exists for the people at the top of hierarchies. Jonny Morrison: Yes. Gino Curcuruto: That’s a great summary. Jonny Morrison: That’s a great summary. That’s what I don’t know. I loved it. I loved that class. I think even the reading was like you are wrestling with something. You’re like, I’ve never, my seminary experience maybe didn’t bring me these resources, but they just felt so shaping and helpful and clarifying to, again, leadership structures in the local church. I mean especially in 2017, 2018, what I was witnessing politically around me, it felt like such tools to make sense of the world. Gino Curcuruto: Guys, this is totally a tangent, but I love that book. Seeing Like a State, it was so helpful. And then I read an essay from Stanley Hauerwas, here we go. It’s not a podcast with me if I haven’t mentioned Hauerwas, and it’s called an essay. He wrote “How Not to be a Political Theologian” and he references one of the author’s other books about being an anarchist as a way of entering into being a Christian political theologian. Anyway, we’re already in the weeds, but I just want to tell you, I would’ve never even known who that was if it wasn’t for Al Roxburgh. So I understood the conversation because without reading, this Jonny Morrison: Podcast has just become an Al Roxburgh fan club, which I’m here for Luke Stehr: Me too. But as we think we keep talking about contextual theology, I’m aware that someone who just stumbles on this may not have a clear framework for what that is. They may have heard of systematic theology or they may not know that theology and biblical studies are even different disciplines. So for you, Johnny, how do you just when someone’s like, oh, you got a degree in contextual theology, what’s that? What do you say? Jonny Morrison: That’s a good question. I’m still working on my elevator answer to that question. Luke Stehr: Me too, so I’m trying to steal yours. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, we’ll do this together. We’ll workshop it together. I like to try to explain it as theology that takes two very serious convictions with it, which is that we stand in line with a tradition and we speak to a place. And so I feel like it’s theology that’s in conversation with two different groups of people. And then we could add so many other dimensions like the living spirit of God, but my community matters to the theological work that I’m doing and the place that we all come from matters to the theological work that I’m doing. And so a good example of this is we’ve done a lot of work in our community around atonement because a lot of our folks come from evangelical-ish environments where penal substitutionary atonement is the only atonement theology. And so what I’m trying to do with them in that moment is actually less about penal substitutionary atonement. It’s specifically and more about the contextual theology that got us there and why in evangelical churches, that’s the only atonement theology that you’ve ever heard of, even though church history has many options, and these are contextual theologies, like Luther is developing penal substituionary atonement where the reformers are to deal with contextual realities and does that help us engage with our contextual reality? So I feel like I’m using this all the time and it’s like where we came from, where we are having a dialogue between those spaces. I know that’s less complicated than Fitch’s contextual theology graph that I never could understand exactly, but that’s the way I would summarize it. Gino Curcuruto: That’s fantastic. Luke Stehr: Yeah, it is. Well, I think it’s so helpful too as we think about contextual theology, one of the kind of affirmations of the discipline is that all theology is inherently contextual. And so when I think about it, when I talk to people about it, I talk about the earliest Christological statements that make use of Greco-Roman philosophical terminology to explain Christ. Those are contextual theological choices. They’re using language, cultural images of the time in order to explain the theological concept., So all theology is contextual. So how do we make sense of the cultural factors both then and now? I think that’s a really helpful way. So let’s talk atonement, cause you’re in it. You’ve written books on it, you think about it a lot. So as you think about kind of on the ground theologically, how do you do a contextual theology of atonement for now and for the location you find yourself in? Jonny Morrison: That’s a great question. That’s a great question. Yeah. I’m sort of obsessed with atonement and I’m getting more obsessed with atonement. And I think it is actually for contextual reasons. I mean there’s the Christian reasons like the saving significance of the cross for my own sake and there’s being a pastor and all that. But I think contextually it’s so important because the cross for my people, and I imagine this is true for so many people who are listening in their churches, is often a symbol of how terrifying God is, not how loving God is. And so then I feel like that’s what started to make me obsessed with this thing is the very central symbol in work and act of our cross. When I would do contextual work, listening to our people, having those conversations, sitting down with folks who come from a myriad of traditions. I’m in Utah, so we have former LDS people, we have Catholics, we have Evangelicals, Baptist, Presbyterians, Methodism, everybody’s kind of forming here. And I’m hearing that story consistently. So that’s what made me obsessed was the initial contextual work of why does this symbol that John says in 1 John 4 is the revelation of the love of God. Why does it invoke such terror in our community? And so maybe the first part of that is a contextual theological read of our community is that the cross is a kind of a wound point for us. Then the thing that I did next and I’m doing with our community actively, and I’m writing about this on my substack a lot, shameless plug there is I’m trying to do a historical survey of atonement theology to introduce a bit of epistemic curiosity to our community who have never heard that there is other atonement theologies. I’m not even trying to take shots at PSA in this work. I’ve done that other places. I’m almost trying to level the playing field though and to be like, “do you know that the early church didn’t hold to PSA?” All the writing around the early church is a theory that looks far more like recapitulation theory thanks to St. Irenaeus and it’s narrative and it’s embodied and it’s participatory. And then you get to ransom and Christus Victor models, and again, sin is debt and guilt are way less significant parts of that narrative than they are around bondage, enslavement, forces of evil. And you’re like Joel Green, the theologian, talks about a kaleidoscopic view of atonement. If that’s all I could give you that would be beautiful, cause you’d have a bigger view of atonement, and I think that’s a contextual work. It’s absolutely contextualizing all of it together. So that’s a long answer. Gino Curcuruto: No, that’s good. I want to keep going, but I want to just interject some of my own story in this and have you kind of riff on this. So I didn’t grow up in the church right before I turned 30, I became a follower of Jesus, spent eight years in a church that was very much like Reform Baptist kind of thing. And so I say all that to narrate this moment. It was the moment when I realized that the church did not begin 500 years ago and what that meant for my atonement theory, I was simultaneously, and maybe this is something that is very prevalent in your context, it is in mine as well. I was simultaneously really pissed off and more excited about Jesus than I’d ever been ever. But I didn’t have a map of where to go. And then I was trying to as a wasn’t a theologian at the time, I was working as a chiropractor and I’m a dad. I’m like, what do I study? What do I do? And so I know you’ve probably wrestled through this. I’m not asking you to tell me what’s the best resources, but if I’m the person in your congregation, if I represent anything like that, and you’re developing these contextual theology around atonement of atonement theories, I understand what you just said is really helpful to that. But maybe dig in a little bit deeper with someone with that kind of story if you could. Jonny Morrison: So something I have found really effective because been doing so our community is so similar, Gino, to what you just said, we can get to this later, but Missio Dei, the Church that I pastor is a church plant of a church called Imago Dei in Portland, Oregon. Imago Dei is the very first Acts 29 church plant. So we are Driscoll’s great grandchildren in a sick twisted universe. And so that is our story. So let’s just talk about contextual work. And we were always different because Imago leaves A29 before it kind of becomes a really big movement around the issues of women in ministry. It wants to ordain women in ministry, not as elders, but as pastors, and they leave over a very specific woman, my co-pastor. It’s not like an abstract conversation, it’s about does Heather Thomas get ordained and now she’s my co-lead pastor. So again, we’re deep in the world of contextual, but it means that so many people from that community come with that neo reformed atonement. Almost like in my thesis, I describe it as an evangelical emerging and neo reformed perspective because a kind of deconstruction that’s happening, there’s an aesthetic of questioning and then a really reformed foundation that you’ll run into eventually. So all that to say that’s exactly what they come with. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Jonny Morrison: So one of the things that we have found really helpful in that is to try and get to the root of what atonement is and see it as a banquet table with many dishes on it. And we have been fed basically only one dish for many years. For 500 years we’ve all been kind of really honing in on roast chicken and that’s PSA and is it good? Totally. It’s fine. We could prepare it a little differently, absolutely. But there’s actually lots of other dishes on the table and atonement is the full table. The phrase atonement is an invention of a word by William Tyndale when he is translating his English Bible to make sense of this complicated Hebraic and New Testament context, boom, contextual theology. And he invents a word to try to translate that to his context by taking the phrases at one and mint and putting it together to express what the cross does. And we found this really effective in our community to be like at the very foundation, the table that is laid is a story about how the cross makes us one with God and one another. And this is actually what we all agree on Greek Orthodox Catholics, protestants of almost every stripe. That’s actually the thing that we sort of agree on. Now we get real fighty as soon as we come out of that and that’s fine, but can we get back to that foundation? And I found that with our folks who come out of that reforms perspective, that’s almost like a bit of a safety raft, which is like, okay, Gino Curcuruto: Yeah Jonny Morrison: This is what scripture says the cross does, and that gives me enough room to start to look at the rest of the dishes that are on the banquet and see how they’re a part of that at-one-ment story. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, yeah, that’s so helpful because to me that sounds like something that’s true all the way through and opens up space to leading to some unwinding as Fitch might say, of some of the things. Because I would say that when you eat that particular roast chicken all the time, it has particular effects on your emotional health and physical health in certain ways. Don’t want to stretch out the metaphor so it becomes unusable. We don’t have to go there, but I just say that it’s really interesting when you’re not saying no to that, but you’re saying yes, and which is what I find that as I’m interviewing people and talking to people, that’s what contextual theologians seem to say more than any other Christians that I know is like, yes. And have you heard the other person’s story? Have you heard this story? Let’s take that all into account. Jonny Morrison: Well, I think we go back to that definition of contextual theology, which is you do theology in a place and that isn’t abstract. These are your people. And I dunno, you can condescend them all you want to in your head, but that doesn’t help you do anything with them. It doesn’t help you do life with them. And people with deeply held PSA convictions and other really reformed or Southern Baptist convictions are in your church or I dunno, if you’re doing church in a Jesus centered way, they should be. And if they’re not, you actually have some other contextual questions to ask yourself. And I think I found it didn’t help my own heart to see them contemptuously. And so at some point I had to take responsibility as maybe this is another Roxburgh term, is it an artisan of a new humanity? I didn’t take that responsibility serious and be like, if I can dream something, I have to include them in the dream and I don’t get to reject them. I’m responsible for them also, not in a paternalistic way, but just like, this is my home, this is my people, Luke Stehr: Yeah. There’s a commitment there and I think that’s the stability that Roxburgh would write about. And so many others have written about stability in those cases too. And I don’t know if you’ve read his latest book, I think it was certainly a kind of cornerstone of our conversations in January when we had him. But yeah, it is that stability piece of like this is the people and this is who you have to work with. So Jonny Morrison: Whether we like it or not, Luke Stehr: Unless you’re my church members, in which case I love you every day. Jonny Morrison: That’s right. Luke Stehr: But yeah, and I think that’s just an amazing way to frame it. I think for everyone that atonement is this table and there’s so many dishes on it. Are there, I think there obviously the different atonement theories come out of different cultural moments. Do you feel that there is maybe one or two atonement stories? I think that’s how James William McClendon frames them. He calls them atonement stories, not theories. Are there one or two atonement stories that fit our cultural moment better or in a really hyper-local sense? Your context in Salt Lake City better? Jonny Morrison: Yeah. Oh, what a great question. That’s so fun. I am becoming a bit obsessed with recapitulation theory, which is one of the earliest known church theories. We associate moth with St. Irenaeus who is a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. So there’s good reason to value this theory way back. It goes way back and it may represent something that looks like what the early church was articulating to one another. One. I just find it beautiful because it’s an atonement theology that incorporates incarnation to ascension and Pentecost and second coming for sure. But we’re just like, we got to frame it somewhere because the whole thing is about incorporation into the story of Jesus or into the life of Jesus. Irenaeus doesn’t use story language, but I think contextualizing it to our modern world story is maybe the most helpful way to think about it. But it is this notion that Christ is the new Adam who there’s a substitutionary component there, a solidarity component there who lives the story humanity was always meant to so that humanity can then re-participate and that story is recapitulated in Christ. So then there’s this heavy participatory element to that atonement theory, which I find in our context, and I would imagine true in many other people’s context is so empowering because one, the cross has been often framed in western spaces as a one time event. But Irenaeus is saying that the life of Christ is an ongoing invitation for all of us to participate in something, to pick up our cross, to join the new humanity, to live a renewed story. It’s like Christ is Aragorn where humanity had been Isildur and in the Aragorn rejection of the power of the ring on the cross also, we get to be participants in new Gondor. We get to live a new kingdom. And I find that so compelling. Irenaeus also talks a lot about healing and healing of wounds, Which he’s way before a trauma-informed atonement theology, but that is what he’s speaking about is that the fall, he calls it the old wound, which I just think is so beautiful in that humanity is arrested in their development. He’s so sophisticated for a dude who’s writing in the second and third century and that in the story of Christ we get to a development is freed so that we can be mature and whole and flourishing. And I know again, contextually I think that has so much power to people who want so much more I think in life than what is offered to them. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, yeah. They see, I’m sorry Luke, do you want to go? Luke Stehr: Go for it man. Gino Curcuruto: I was thinking about the opportunities that I have to spend time. I teach inside a prison theology and Bible inside a prison, and then just friends that I have that are in recovery after addiction and maybe aren’t familiar with the term recapitulation, but are absolutely pursuing a new story. And the connecting point that is so valuable is saying like, Hey, the people of God, the people that are created are always walking in a story that has a starting point before them and many of us don’t do it well, but what would it look like to actually consent to someone else incorporating you into a better story in some way or living it out or So even that healing idea of atonement that there is a true and greater atom who did it in a way without flaw and then gives you a blood transfusion in a sense to heal not only your infection of sin, but also to give you renewed life in a new way. I love that. Also, the last thing is I never hear a church named Recapitulation Church. We got Redeemer, Renewal, all of these churches, but there’s an R word that the church has not really latched onto, so maybe your work will do it. Jonny Morrison: Maybe our people are already confused enough about our church’s name being Missio Dei. I don’t know that we need to add another level of complexity and theological nuance to our church naming. Luke Stehr: Valid. Oh man. Some of the things I think about as you’re preaching, as you’re teaching, as you’re helping people understand the ins and outs of recapitulation theory, like you’re talking to a person in your church who’s like, “how do I talk about this with my friends who don’t know Jesus?” Or you’re in Salt Lake City, so it’s safe to assume your people are bumping into a lot of Mormons. How do you teach people to talk about recapitulation theory and just a natural not Irenaeus kind of way? Jonny Morrison: Yeah, I’ve, other than when doing a historical survey of atonement theories, I dunno that I’ve ever used the word recapitulation on stage. So that’s maybe the first Luke Stehr: That’s probably wise. Jonny Morrison: And we do a lot of preaching training in our community and have invested in this a lot. And so high value for me is to strip our language of religious veneer, jargon or Christianese, and this is true, I think everybody should do this, but Utah is a fascinating context in that. So we’re in Salt Lake City. Salt Lake is, I think It is quite a progressive city. People often think about it as maybe like Utah itself, but it’s better thought of as Austin in Texas. It’s a city in rebellion to the conservatism of the state around it. And so we were the 12th city to legalize gay marriage back in 2008, and then our governor vetoed it at the time. So then our state was, it only became legal when it became federal. So that’s our state’s tension all the time. And I think we were one of the first cities in the United States have a queer mayor. So there’s this real progressivism in the city that’s always budding against conservatism, but it’s a progressivism, all that to say that is shaped by a post-Mormon religious context, not a post-evangelical or post-Catholic or post-mainline. And that already sets us up into a fascinating dynamic. And then the city is populated by so many transplants. Like many cities, young people want to live there, they want to be there. There’s a college, a big college, and then we’re an outdoor state. And so many young people move to Utah, take their first major job or second major career job because they want to ski and they want to hike and they want fish and whatever. So I say all of that to say that Missio is a community that is shaped by that religious heritage, like post Mormons who have deconstructed Mormonism evangelicals who have deconstructed evangelicalism, folks who moved here and couldn’t find a Catholic church, and we were the most liturgical thing around. So they started coming to us. That’s the strange dynamic of the community. And even my staff is a really good example of this. I grew up Pentecostal, found anabaptism in college. I’m like a Pentecostal Anabaptist. And then solid, my co-pastor Heather grew up in a tiny Anglican church in England and then helped plant an emerging neo reform church. And then it’s here today, our third pastor is a 62-year-old retired Presbyterian USA pastor, and then my staff is Foursquare folks. They’re all over the place like megachurch folks who, so I say all that to say is a long answer to say that I really want us to use language that cuts through tradition because you cannot assume that people in the room understand the word the same way you do. And so that’s why we’ve done so much work around atonement in part is like what do we mean when we use the word atonement? What are we saying when we talk about the cross? What do we believe the cross is accomplishing? And at its most basic, at its most foundational, and one of the things that we talk about a lot, this is where I’ll close, is that so John talks about this is in the letter from John 4, 1 John 4, he talks about how this is how we know what love is that God sent his son to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins. And then he goes on to say, God is love. So this is the primary way that we would talk about atonement is that the way in which scripture describes to us atonement is that it is the great reveal of God’s love. It’s not the only reveal, but it is the perfect snapshot of God’s love for us. And so then everything else we understand has to have that Jesusy other oriented sacrificial love on it. What the scripture says is the primary reveal. And for us that’s so important because Mormons have a very unique understanding of who Jesus is. But evangelicals, Baptist Presbyterians, we all bring that, and so it’s like what holds us, and it’s like the cross reveals that God is like Jesus, and that’s going to be our big atonement crux. So there’s lots of other things I can say there, but I just feel like I talked to you for 30 minutes. Gino Curcuruto: No, that was great. You really had me at just the idea of staying away from certain language so that you could communicate well, and I was just thinking about how much of our work is translation in so many ways and just listening to how you are thoughtfully going about doing that was just a real encouragement to me. So I was just listening. You could go longer as far as I’m concerned. That was really helpful. Oh, thank you. Luke Stehr: I’d be okay with that. Jonny Morrison: It’s interesting. I’d be interested to hear you guys’ thoughts on this. Translation is also an interesting work because doing contextual theology with people who are religious, there’s a kind of way in which they want certain religious words used also. And so one of the things I’ve had to learn in this work is that the pushback is sometimes that we don’t use the religious word enough, and so then because they don’t hear the symbol that represents a whole world of meaning behind it, all that front stage backstage stuff, you guys did that with Roxburgh, they don’t hear the front stage performance that indicates all that. Then they’re like, oh, you’re not actually talking about sin. That’s the big one. If I talk about wounding and trauma and systemic injustice or racism, but I never used the word sin, then they’re like, oh, you didn’t talk about sin at all. These all good stuff, but where’s sin and where’s the cross. And you’re like, yeah. You’re like, oh no. Gino Curcuruto: Yes, I can relate to that particularly around that word sin of, but also maybe this is another episode, but even my own personal Anabaptist non-violence kind of convictions that I’ve had multiple conversations with people that visit on a Sunday and they’re like, I love this church, but I’m really uncomfortable with the non-violence. I’m trying to understand what that means. You want me to be more violent? You are not a violent anyway. Let’s just stick to the sin one maybe. Yes. That’s a’s something about it makes me question whether people are listening for the symbolic gestures to what they already believe or are listening to the thought. What I hope is a thoughtful presentation on how we’re bringing joining with the spirit together and using language. So it’s not that Johnny and I are pro sin and we’re just going to keep it under wraps by not using the word, we’re just trying to use language that moves away from individual guilt as the only imagination for what sin might be. Is that a fair assessment? Luke Stehr: Yeah, I think that sounds fair. And as I’m listening, as I’m thinking, I think people are looking for these theological signifying words. I think in the American development of Protestantism, once you start moving past Appalachia and into the frontier, I mean churches were not elaborate spaces. They were pretty simple structures. And there’s almost a virtue once you get past the east coast of a simplicity and architecture in particularly Protestant life. And so in the absence, if you’re a Roman Catholic, you’re going to walk into a Catholic church or an Anglican church even, or an Episcopal church and you’re going to walk in, you’re going to see stained glass, you’re going to see a baptistry font as you come in. Maybe there’s going to be a certain layout out to the architecture that’s actually going to let you know that you’ve entered a certain kind of theological space where your theological expectations will be met. And this is, I think, true across Catholicism. For one of the classes we took with Mulder, I went to a Vietnamese Catholic church in town, and even at this super Vietnamese Catholic church, I walk in, it looks very Vietnamese, but I know that I’m in a Catholic church. Well, Protestants don’t have that kind of defining visible architecture. So I think in the absence of that, particularly in our emphasis on the spoken word as the main component of worship, we rely on those signifying words to let us know that we’ve, Gino Curcuruto: But we just lost your Mic, but I was going to say that as Luke’s saying that he’s going to come right back on here. There. Yeah, there you are. I’m sorry, Luke. I was just going to say that I think that’s really important because what I should have said also is that it’s not wrong for people to want to have those signifiers because of what it means for them, right? Contextually is I need to know that I’m safe here. And most of us, we don’t have those other symbolic gestures other than our words, especially in Protestant spaces, and most of us, including myself, are too impatient to have the time to hear each other out, for lack of a better term. Jonny Morrison: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I would be interested, Luke, to tap in on what you just named and hear what you guys think about this. So I want to present a theory, like a contextual theological theory to you about the future of the church and have you dialogue with me about it. So I think that what you just named is so true about spaces feeling like churches, and I think that will become more important to a de-churched people, not less, and I think that the missional, I love the missional movement, but its emphasis on home spaces misses this pretty large that my Gen Z friends who come to church are very nervous to just show up at a home. They actually really want a religious space as the first place to welcome into and to clearly see it as a religious space, and so for Missio, but they want to do, okay, maybe one more point add this. So they want to do it in a way that is maybe stripped of some of its baggage. So this is the trick. I think that has to be the line that has to be walked. So Missy, our church, our space has a very specific design to it that is meant to do some of the things that you just named Luke. So our room has a really long communion table down the middle of it that’s always there. We do communion every single week, and that is the center of our space. Then we do have a stage, the play, kind of like the orientation of word, and then on its left side is a baptismal font that’s always there. It on its right side is a prayer station which forms across, so there’s a cruciform nature to the space. The chairs are oriented, so they’re kind of angled towards one another, which is again, so that there’s a participatory element, and then the design of the stage is very simple, but it’s all this geometric shaped hardwood because we are in a warehouse, but we’re in a warehouse in which the presence of God is. And so we have the sense that God redeems spaces, but makes them fully what they’re supposed to be, not less than they were supposed to be. Then there’s the lobby, and then the lobby faces a big prayer chapel, which has big glass windows, that same geometric shaping, and then a view of the window that we exist for, or a window that shows the city that we exist for the city. We built the building, you had a view of the capitol, and then immediately afterwards a parking garage went up. So now we have a view of a parking garage and apartment buildings. So all to say something about that, that’s our space. And thankfully more apartments have gone up in front of the parking garage. It was, we built the space and it was finished in 2015 for a full year, had this beautiful view of the capitol and it was like, ah, so cool. We’re praying for the city. And then end of 2015, the parking garage starts going up and we’re like, no, it’s just big concrete six story edifice or whatever. But all that to say, so we’ve alluded to your point, we have tried as a contextual experiment to be very deliberate about the design of our space. Our services are actually quite liturgical while being, we would say our tradition is Anabaptist, charismatic liturgical, those three streams sort of shape the feel and texture of our church. And so I’d be interested, yeah, this is like here’s our experiment, and I’m putting on the table in front of you is our contextual theological church planting pastoring experiment that we’re trying to do. I think it’s the future of the church. That’s my premise. Luke Stehr: Yeah, no, I think you’re right on the money. I think the first thing that came to mind is the success of Knives Out: Wake Up Dead Man just had this huge cultural moment, and it’s such an overtly religious film, but it’s Rian Johnson is not religious. He grew up religious, he grew up Christian, but he’s not anymore, but just makes this profoundly religious film. And so I think people actually want to feel that. I think there’s a Canadian author, and I can’t remember the name, but I think it’s like Wisdom from Babylon or Wisdom from Exile, something like that. But one of the things he talks about and argues for is that as we move into these increasingly post-Christian environments, which are only going to increase, even hearing heard Ed Stetzer speak two weeks ago, but even he was very explicitly clear revival is not happening, which so to hear Stetzer say that the decline is only going to continue people, but in that kind of cultural environment, people actually want to know what the feeling is. I live in a context where Islam is growing pretty quickly, so I think I’m in the heart of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex in my city alone. We’re the third largest city in the metro. There are five mosques and the first Spanish language mosque opened in Fort Worth, and so Islam is growing, but you know that you’ve gone to a mosque. There’s no doubt about the space that you’ve entered into what’s happening there. I think people actually desire some sort of tactility to a space. I think in a time when people actually don’t know the narrative of scripture, don’t know the theological language, the words as signifiers of tribe or identity don’t mean anything, and you could argue that we’re moving into a post-literate society or whatever, but there’s a reason people started using stained glass and used statues and used art in religious spaces, and it’s because it communicated it was the signifier of the kind of space you had come into. And so I think that’s only going to become more essential. I think routine practices of communion, regardless of your tradition. I’m at a Baptist church when I came, we were doing quarterly. I made a push. We moved to monthly, and I feel really good about that. I’d love to do it more because it’s the most concrete and tangible expression of what happens in atonement that you can do week over week. And so even if you’re preaching some bonkers passage out of Haggai, you’re still going to do communion and you’re still going to convey what happens in a really tangible way that makes sense narratively, but maybe in a way that’s not necessarily aimed at a literate sense of meaning. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, I think that’s so true. No, no, I think that’s so true. Our liturgy, and this is so shaped by Fitch, this is, I think doing work in his class really helped me shape our, we were always a bit more liturgical, but I really started to hone it more and more. And so All of it’s written in-house unless we, sometimes we’ll pull prayers from the book of prayer from scripture specifically, but it’s all contextualized for our people in our community. I think what Luke you just named is we’re trying to narrate the story of scripture and invite people to participate in the good news embodied, and that all has to happen contextually. So you’re called to worship, then there is music, then there’s moments that are for the community. Then we do multiple collective prayers in the service, and then the table comes after the sermon. It’s like the chief responsiveness, the prayer station is open. Then there’s doxology and a benediction always. And so the goal being that there’s a movement to the service you’re invited in to know and experience the goodness of Jesus. You’re centered on the table where you belong to one another and to Christ, and then you are sent back into the city, the people of church. And I think about Fitch’s three spaces being like, you have to have the second two spaces. And I think the missional church where I was so shaped by theologically, we emphasize those two so well, and then kind of forgot the value of the closed circle to use fitch’s language or that first space and the learning in experimentation. And I think with younger communities, you still value religious spaces. It’s like, oh, the social architecture of the church all has to be operating pretty healthy and you can’t overemphasize the Sunday, but you also can’t deemphasize it because of the formational power that I think it has still in our communities. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, there’s definitely been, I’m familiar with those same missional movements if we use quotes around them that you are was formed in that myself as once to quote Luke Stehr: Roxburgh from when he taught us the missional church is dead. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Did he say that? Luke Stehr: He did. Gino Curcuruto: He’s working on what is mission post missional movement, I think was what he said he was working on now, interesting. But the idea of almost, I hate to use the idea of a pendulum swing, but my experience was many people were just moving outwards so much as a rejection of what they were experiencing in those Sunday settings as being highly just attractional light, not really significant in many ways. And they were just saying, actually, we can just be with our neighbors. And embodied presence has value, which the church had been saying since the beginning. It’s just not our American west churches. And so now there are some that are just moving so inward that they might also now be saying, come and see our experience of the liturgy. I’m not making this claim about you. We’re highly liturgical with our Sunday gathering too. And so by you naming the three circles, I feel like that’s the healthy thing a church exists in multiple spaces because a church is made up of people that do more than just hang with their neighbors or invite their neighbors to a Sunday worship. So I think that’s really helpful. But what I was also keying in on the two of you’s conversation, just so I can reflect, was that the importance of having something beyond what is spoken to signify What this space is, who these people are, what they represent, and I think there is a hunger for that more than I’ve seen in my own lifetime. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, I think in some ways it’s about reclaiming the purpose of those spaces, having all three, this is again, so thankful for Fitch for this work. It’s like you have the full embodied social architecture of the church knowing that one space alone is not enough, and then you reclaim the purpose. Evangelicals made the purpose of the Sunday entertainment. I know that’s not what they would say, but that’s what they did. And if the purpose of the Sunday is, this would be my pitch, it’s about imaginative formation really shaped by Brueggeman in that and by other political theologians. If that’s the goal, then the Sunday needs word. I think we have to be good proclaimers of the gospel. You actually need to hear the good news to help us story it, to renar it. But it also has to be embodied, and it has to be, I think there has to be an imaginative music component, a practiced component, a participatory component, and that all then, I mean this is all Fitch. It all then frames when we leave and we enter into the second space to have a place to practice it. But it’s all the same things. The metaphor we use here a lot at Missio to help people understand this is that Sundays are sort of like physical therapy. I’m your physical therapist or the other pastors or your trained physical therapist, and we’re going to walk through all the practices of the Christian life in a highly curated fashion. We’re going to gather the table, we’re going to practice confession. I’m going to proclaim the gospel. But if that’s the only thing that this ever does for you, it’s just not enough for wholeness, for healing to get back on the mountain and ski again or to run your marathon again, you have to then go to the second space, which is the gym with your homies, and you have to start doing table there again, all this all fits. So grateful for him in this. And then even that space isn’t for itself. That space exists for everyday life. You go to physical therapy, you go to the gym. This says Utah, so that you can ski again, right? You tore your ACL, let’s get you hall and back on the mountain so that you can ski again, so you can climb again. So you can go to work and live the gospel so you can be in your neighborhood embodied presence. But I do think you actually need those first two spaces to get you to that third one at least to get you there as strong as possible. I guess I’m continue using the metaphor. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Luke Stehr: Okay. Well, last question. What are you reading right now? Jonny Morrison: Great question. So as we talked about earlier, I’ve been so in the world of Atonement, and I have a podcast called Prodigal Pastor, and I’ve been interviewing people about atonement. So I’m reading Michael Gorman’s book right now, the Death of the Messiah, the Birth of the New Covenant, which is his, he’s offering kind of his own model of atonement, which is really fascinating. That one’s very fascinating too, because most of the book is actually about practicing atonement, and so it’s like reclaiming baptism and all these kind of old practices that sometimes in Western atonement models they don’t have a place for, but his is like, well, they’re essential, right? You die with Christ, you rise with him. What does this mean? So that’s been really, really good. I’ve been reading that. And then I’ve also been on a weird fantasy kick, so I’m reading a book right now. This feels like a different take between, it’s called Between Two Fires, and it’s like a Catholic, medieval novel that takes place in real Europe, like an actual place during the plague. And then it’s kind of like, it’s all framed by deep religious superstition around the moment. What kind of fear would’ve emerged during the plague and how that would’ve shaped your view of God and one another. But then it’s a story, it’s a fantasy novel, and I have been absolutely delighting in it, so Gino Curcuruto: That’s awesome. That is. Wow. Oh, Johnny, this has been so good. This has been Rich. Enjoyed this conversation and know that we could probably continue, but you I’m sure have other things that you need to do today, Luke Stehr: No one needs a two hour podcast. Jonny Morrison: That’s fair. Gino Curcuruto: But thank you so much for coming on with us and sharing some wisdom. It’s been really, really good. Jonny Morrison: Oh my gosh, you guys have been so fun. To be here and to talk to people in the program, that’s always a gift I miss. Maybe that most of all is being able to hang out with the cohort and chat through theology and we’re reading, and thanks for doing this, and huge shout out to everybody who’s been involved in the program. I feel so grateful that it exists. I think our church sort of exists because of it, so I’m really indebted to Fitch and all the professors and grateful you guys are here telling the story. Luke Stehr: Yeah. Well, thanks for being here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com [https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

15. april 202655 min

Episode 03 - Jon Massimi

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