If You Can't Take Time Off Is Something Wrong With You?

When You Change, People Get Weird with Noelle Cordeaux, Lumia CEO

Noelle is back. She founded Lumia Coaching, trained both Pancho and Kim, and is the reason the two of them know each other. This is their second conversation with her, and it picks up a thread from the first: when you change, people get weird. The three of them pull that thread from every direction. - What happens inside the relationships when one person starts growing and the others haven't yet. - Why the people closest to you experience your change as an implicit accusation. - How family systems don't just absorb individual growth, they spin out, sometimes catastrophically, before they find a new baseline. - What it feels like to move through the wasteland after you change, unsure of who will follow and support you in the aftermath. Noelle brings the frame of imago, the idea that we often seek relationships that help us meet the unmet needs of our earlier selves, and what happens when we actually get there and no longer need those relationships in the same form. She also brings her own life as a case study, referencing the consistent experience of moving forward into uncertainty and watching some relationships follow her and others fall away. Kim talks about stopping the rupture-repair cycle with someone close to her. And about choosing strategic mediocrity, deciding what (and who) gets her best, letting everything else be good enough. Pancho talks about stopping drinking, the awkwardness of learning to have strong convictions without encroaching on other people's choices, and a twenty-year process of adding nuance to upturn his views what it means to be a woman in business leadership circles full of people who don't look like you. When you change, people get weird. It turns out that weirdness isn't about you. Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * Imago relationship theory: referenced by Noelle as a framework for understanding why we seek certain relationships and what happens when we outgrow them; developed by Harville Hendrix * Lumia Coaching: Noelle's coach training program where Pancho and Kim trained; ⁠ [https://www.lumiacoaching.com/]lumiacoaching.com [http://lumiacoaching.com]⁠ [https://www.lumiacoaching.com/] * Margaret Moore and neuroplasticity: referenced by Noelle in the context of intentionally refilling yourself after change * The Dartmouth Scar Experiment: referenced by Pancho; a study in which participants with prosthetic scars continued to perceive others as treating them negatively, even after the scars were removed, demonstrating how self-perception and expectations shape our reality. * Now That You See It, Episode on Unwanted Change: the Masters of Change episode referenced directly in this conversation, on allostasis, resistance, and navigating transitions you didn't choose

Intimacy Requires Anxiety with Dr. Bruce Chalmer

Dr. Bruce Chalmer has been a couples therapist for over 30 years. Before that, he was a statistician. And at some point in the time between the two, he went through the kind of despair that changes how someone approaches adversity forever. That experience, and what he found on the other side of it, is what led him to clinical work. It's what he still brings into every session: a specific non-religious faith, a conviction that reality is right to be what it is, even when it's brutal. People who can hold that perspective don't panic, and that lack of panic allows them to be kind. Be kind, don't panic, and have faith. That's the seven-word formula behind his podcast with his wife Judy Alexander, and it's the thread running through this whole conversation. We explore the framework that relationships have two distinct sets of needs: stability and intimacy, and that these two things are structurally in tension. Stability is about keeping anxiety low. Intimacy is about tolerating anxiety without freaking out. And most couples, especially stable ones who love each other, quietly sacrifice intimacy to protect stability. We then suss out the difference between deal breakers and growing pains, dig into the one skill that solves every relationship problem (the ability to be moderately annoyed), and what happens to couples after betrayal when they do the work. Pancho shares his three-year conversation with his wife about whether to have children, which turns out to be a pretty good real-world case study in everything Bruce is describing. Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * Couples Therapy in Seven Words podcast with Bruce Chalmer and Judy Alexander: ⁠ [https://couplestherapyinsevenwords.com/]https://couplestherapyinsevenwords.com⁠ [https://couplestherapyinsevenwords.com⁠] * The Passion Paradox by Bruce Chalmer: his book on stability, intimacy, and why relationships need both to stay alive * Whole Brain Living by Jill Bolte Taylor: referenced for the idea that we are all multiple people simultaneously, mapped onto four physiological characters based on left/right hemispheres and neocortex/limbic system * Internal Family Systems (IFS) via Richard Schwartz: referenced alongside Jill Bolte Taylor's work as a framework for understanding the multiplicity within each person * Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning: referenced in the context of finding meaning even in the worst circumstances as Bruce's working definition of faith * Alain de Botton, Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person: referenced for the idea that every partner is a bundle of specific annoyances and the work is figuring that out together; theschooloflife.com [http://theschooloflife.com] * Bill Doherty's discernment counseling: referenced as the framework behind Bruce's video course on whether to stay, wait, or leave

Embrace the Awkward: A Coach's Playbook for Speaking Up with Salvatore Manzi

Salvatore Manzi lost his voice on stage the first time he tried to speak publicly. His dad was a public speaker, and his mom facilitated large group events. It was obvious that he would also become a speaker and facilitator. The first time he stood in front of a room, he lost his voice and had to walk off stage, humiliated. That was the beginning of a 20-year project to help himself and others use their voice clearly and compellingly. He's most excited to work with people who struggle to use their voice: analytical thinkers, introverted leaders, and other people who have brilliant ideas and genuinely struggle to get those ideas across in ways that move other people. This is a wide-ranging conversation. Salvatore outlines two distinct roots of imposter syndrome in public speaking: a negative experience that taught your nervous system public speaking is dangerous, and a lifetime of conditioning that people like you don't get a voice in rooms like this. We cover practical tools like using space, silence, and stillness to communicate more powerfully and hold people's attention. We cover nuances like the anticipatory pause and how most people are pausing in the wrong place. Pancho brings in the concept of vagal authority from polyvagal theory to reinforce Salvatore's practical tip to move 5% more slowly than the rest of the room. Kim shares about her own imposter story, including a toxic boss situation that had an entire team convinced the problem was them individually, until someone passed around a book. The closing idea is the one worth sitting with. If you can see something extraordinary in someone else, that recognition means you already have some version of it in you. The gap is to step into that capacity yourself. Once you see that imposter feelings aren't a sign something is wrong with you but a signal you're growing, you can't unsee it. Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * Clear and Compelling by Salvatore Manzi: his book on communication strategies for leaders, available for pre-order https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/clear-and-compelling-salvatore-manzi/1148510383?ean=9798895740347 [https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/clear-and-compelling-salvatore-manzi/1148510383?ean=9798895740347] * Taming Your Gremlins by Rick Carson * Aforemations by Noah St. John * Multipliers by Liz Wiseman * Carol Dweck's growth mindset research * Polyvagal theory and vagal authority * Chase Hughes, behavioral scientist: referenced for the principle of moving 5% slower than anyone else in the room * Byron Katie's The Work * Why The Brain Loves Stories - https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_stories_change_brain [https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_stories_change_brain]

You Can't Stop Comparing. So Do It Better

"Comparison is the thief of joy" is one of those phrases that gets repeated so often that we take it to be rock-solid wisdom. Pancho calls BS. Comparison is not the thief of joy. As a matter of fact, it's not a problem at all. It's one of the most fundamental tools the human mind uses to understand anything, including itself. Without it, there's no sense of self, no theory of mind, no way to distinguish what you want from what you need. There would be no way to notice differences between anything. The idea that you could or should stop comparing is wrong, and it misses the point entirely. What actually steals joy is what we do after we compare. The stories we tell ourselves about what the comparison means. That's what causes the resentment that builds when we can't get what somebody else has. We lose joy when we compare ourselves to other people's highlight reels and take it to mean something about our worth. This episode covers René Girard's theory of mimetic desire, the idea that most of our wants don't come from within. We want things because other people want them too (or already have them and are shoving your face in it). Peter Thiel understood this when he invested in Facebook within an hour of meeting Zuckerberg. Instagram runs on mimetic desire. Commercials and ads wouldn't work without mimetic desire. Kim and Pancho also get into social comparison theory, the difference between envy and jealousy, and the consequences of upward and downward comparison. We then talk about what to do instead. Spoiler: it's gratitude, and yes, it's annoying that gratitude seems to be a cure-all to many of the problems we talk about. Comparison isn't the problem. Evaluating our worth or success by comparing it with others is the problem. and unconsciously adopting other people's desires without recognizing what we're doing is the problem. Concepts Explored * Mimetic desire via René Girard: we want what other people want, not what we authentically choose for ourselves * Social comparison theory: in the absence of objective measures, we default to measuring ourselves against other people * Envy vs. jealousy: envy is wanting what someone else has, jealousy is fearing the loss of what you already have * Upward and downward comparison: how each can either inspire or quietly erode your sense of self Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * René Girard's mimetic desire theory: the philosophical framework at the center of this episode; search "René Girard mimetic desire" for lectures and interviews * Peter Thiel and Facebook: Thiel was a student of Girard at Stanford and applied mimetic desire theory to his investment thesis; his book Zero to One touches on this directly * Atomic Habits by James Clear: referenced for the idea of surrounding yourself with people who model the behaviors you want to adopt * Sonder: the concept, referenced by Kim, that other people have rich inner lives just like yours; originally coined in The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows by John Koenig

If You Can't Take Time Off Is Something Wrong With You?

Kim took a real vacation. For what she believes is the first time in her adult life. The ones before were those "vacations" where the laptop comes out on the beach. They were weeks of checking email only five times a day while everyone else looked on in confusion. This time, it was a full, committed, nothing-on-the-calendar week where she said no to a job offer, canceled future plans to go to a conference, and let her kids make a documentary about Chinese food and hiking. This episode is a conversation about what it actually takes to disconnect from work when your work feels like a calling, not just a job. Kim sorts through beliefs that kept her in this cycle of not-vacationing. Kim pressure-tests the sneaky ones that sound responsible, and shares what finally broke her open to doing it differently. Pancho, who has never had this problem, brings a perspective that is alternately baffling and clarifying for Kim: he doesn't vacation to recover from work, he vacations because there are things outside of work worth planning eight months in advance. Without planning it, this conversation expands both of our understandings of what it means to take a vacation. It gets into identity, leadership, what it means to tie your sense of self to your job title, and why that's a problem whether you're a burnout coach or someone in leadership. Once you see that you are the asset and no one else can replace you if you run yourself into the ground, you can't unsee it. Concepts Explored Toxic productivity vs. genuine vocation: why loving your work makes it harder, not easier, to rest Identity and work: what happens when your job is also your sense of self The vacation sensation: heart rate variability, nervous system safety, and what ease actually feels like in the body Leadership modeling: how the way you vacation shapes the culture your team builds around rest and autonomy Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources Masters of Change by Brad Stulberg: referenced in the previous episode on allostasis and change; relevant here for the idea of building stability through intentional recovery cycles Daniel Kahneman's narrative self vs. experiencing self: referenced by Pancho when discussing whether you're actually enjoying your life, not just proud of the story you tell about it Now That You See It, Episode 28: Six Habits of the Best Bosses: the relational leadership episode referenced directly in this conversation Kim's burnout resilience newsletter and upcoming audio series: where the tactical vacation checklist lives; find Kim at kimpaull.com [http://kimpaull.com]