Podcast - SURF MASTERY

131 Why You’re Missing Waves (and What the Pros See That You Don’t)

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/1f446dc2-75d9-42e1-8047-9816d8f40606/Mike+Frampton+Surf+Mastery+.png?format=1000w] Are you truly reading the wave, or just watching water move? Discover how paying attention to the ocean’s smallest details could completely transform your surfing. If you’ve ever felt stuck in your surf progression, unsure why better technique isn’t getting better results, this episode is your wake-up call. It’s not just about turning sharper or paddling harder, it’s about changing how you see the ocean. Whether you’re an intermediate surfer or decades in, understanding how to focus and read the wave can be the game-changer you’ve been missing. * Learn how world-class surfers like Tom Carroll gain a massive edge by spotting secondary swells, backwashes, and subtle refractions that most surfers miss. * Discover why your technique won’t matter if you can’t focus and how mindfulness and meditation off the board can level up your performance on it. * Shift your entire relationship with surfing by embracing a personal surfing philosophy rooted in joy, longevity, and self-defined progression - not surf industry hype. Press play to learn how changing your mindset and mastering wave reading can unlock deeper flow, better waves, and more fulfilling sessions in any surf condition. 131 Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] What helped my surfing the most was looking for the details in the wave because I think it's so easy to get lost while you're surfing. A lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting. If you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you. That is the hardest part of surfing, knowing where to go. 99% of your time surfing. Is not spent surfing. It's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and Inspiration for Better Surfing. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and that was a quote from when I was interviewed for the surf. Basis podcast. A podcast very similar to this one. I interviewed Van who hosts and produces the podcast, uh, back in episode 1, 2, 3, and he interviewed me for his show. So today I am releasing that conversation, which originally appeared. On the Surf basis podcast. Van Vu: Alright, welcome to the Basis Surf [00:01:00] podcast. Very excited because today we got Michael Frampton of the Surf Mastery Podcast. He is one of the OGs in this space. I think you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point. You were one of the original inspirations when I started my podcast as well. 'cause there's just a, a wealth of knowledge in your podcast and in you, yourself as a coach. Um, and I know you have. Courses as well. But, uh, very excited to get into it, try to extract all the little nuggets that you've picked up over talking to all these people and yeah, so thanks for joining. Thank you so much, fan. It's, it's an honor. Cool. Well, why don't we just dive straight in. I mean, you know, there's a million angles that we could take from this, but I, I think where the place I want to start is, you know, you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point. What have been kind of the best nuggets, best pieces of wisdom, best pieces of advice that you've, you've been able to get over all these interviews Michael Frampton: at this point? Yeah. Straight into it. Okay. The thing, what helped my surfing the most was I immediately think [00:02:00] of Tom Carroll. I was lucky enough to be. When I started the podcast, I was actually training Tom Carroll as a personal trainer in the gym, and he was the second guest, number two. And one of the things he was talking about in that original interview was looking for the details in the wave, and that stuck with me back then back in 2015, as something that I'm constantly trying to improve on is looking for the details and the wave and what Tom meant by that. What I'm still learning is when you're looking at the wave, most people think that there's a wave coming in or there's a, you know, there's a, a one meter swell at 15 seconds and that when that wave hits the beach or the point and it breaks along, that's what we surf. Yes, that's the main wave. But there back washes, there are secondary and tertiary swells. There's wind chop. There's refractions coming off headlands, even [00:03:00] from miles away, that interact with that main wave. And when we start to see, when we look for, and we start to see those smaller details in the waves, then that's what allows, I mean, surf what and what, um, what fascinated me the most was Tom would've been. This is, you know, 10 years ago, so I was what, 34? And Tom, Tom would've been like 52 probably. And we went surfing and he's on a smaller surfboard than me, just on these probably waist high waves. At a soft beach break. I was struggling to paddle into the waves. I couldn't even catch these waves, and he's doing full roundhouse cutbacks, just going a hundred miles an hour. I just couldn't work it out. Like, how are you doing that? Mm-hmm. Obviously, he's a pro and he's been doing it a long time, but. We got to break it down and it was because he's looking for the [00:04:00] details. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: He, he's looking at how the, that wind chop, that's where I'm gonna put the rail on my surfboard, right inside that wind chop or that refracted wave. And I'm gonna choose the wave that's meeting. The main swell and kind of wedging up a little bit. That's where I'm gonna chip in and paddle into the wave in the first place. And I wasn't even aware that that's what was going on in surfing until he, he pointed that out. So that was definitely a, a huge nugget and something that I'm always looking for as those real, those just minor little details. Sometimes when the, at, uh, when the sun's low on the horizon, it's really easy to see. But when the sun's straight up in the sky and the water's murky, it's so hard to see the multiple swells and the wind chops and the water, et cetera. Also, just the way the water moves, like especially in the, some of the beaches in Australia at the time, you get little, they call it a rip bowl, where there's a rip running sort of alongside the, the, the beach break. The [00:05:00] beach break, and then as the wave's coming in, there's also water drawing. Underneath the wave two. So your board speed is actually faster than the wave's actually going. It's almost acting like a, a wave moving towards the beach as well as a standing wave. So looking for the waves that are doing that more in the set. So the first wave of the set at a rip bowl is gonna, that's, that's gonna be more powerful 'cause there's actually more water drawing back out from the previous set. There's so many of those little details in surfing. We just don't see as beginners and even as intermediates. Gosh, even, you know, I, I coach a lot of surfers that just have never even thought they've been surfing for 20 years and never even thought or realized it and what. Part of the reason Tom learned that is because he grew up in a surfing rich culture where his dad surfed and his uncle surfed and his best mates, they all surfed. So they were constantly talking about all this stuff and analyzing each other and surfing different waves. [00:06:00] So, as. Me, I didn't start surfing until I was 17 and I was completely self-taught and we went, when we went to the beach, there was no one else there, there was no one to learn from. All I had was the magazines, which was all, you know, glorified, glorified performance surfing. So that that little nugget, looking for the details in the wave, that that helped a lot. And I often use the analogy of imagine a mountain biker cruising down a. Down a hill, down a track that's say a meter wide, well, an amateur mountain biker just trying to get down the track using that meter wide track. But the pro mountain biker is looking, where is the center of my tire going on that track? And what's the fastest way? With the least amount of resistance, the track within the track. So that's what I'm constantly trying to look for when I'm surfing. It does another thing, which I think is really important, which segues into the second point, which is it, it allows you to be more present. So I remember interviewing [00:07:00] Matt Griggs, who was Mick Fanning's original trainer, uh, with the Rip Curl team, and he was big on meditation. Uh, the mindfulness meditation was kely meditation side of things, and then also interviewing Dr. Michael Vet. Who's the sports psychologist for the Red Bull team, who's also big on the meditation side of things and focusing, focusing on one thing, like your life depends on, it is a, a, not quite the word for word, but it's a quote from him. So. When you start looking for the details in the wave, it helps you to do that as well. 'cause I think it's so easy to get lost while while you're surfing. You, a lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting, so you kind of get lost and then all of a sudden a wave comes and you're expected to just all of a sudden focus in on all this craziness that's going on. So learning to to, to meditate outside of the water helped a actually helped a lot. 'cause that's just a [00:08:00] refocusing every time you see your mind sort of drifting off, you, you refocus the ability to, to do that. And then when you're in the ocean, you're focusing on the details in the water. And I think it's, you know, 'cause when you're sitting there waiting for a set to come, another big thing, I remember interviewing Nathan Hedge. I don't think he talked about it specifically, but I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge. It on the, on the Sydney beaches. And we'd be sitting, everyone would be sitting there waiting for a set, and then all of a sudden you see Nathan start paddling. It's like, wow. Why is he paddling? There's no set coming, and then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming and starts paddling. But Nathan's already, not only has he seen the set before us, he's paddling to where that first wave of the set is going to break because he's just seen it before everyone else. So what has he seen? Well, he is been looking, he's been staring at that little sliver of horizon, right? And when you're sitting there at, you know, you're just above water level, it literally [00:09:00] is like a tiny little sliver of horizon that you're looking at. Nathan's looking at the tiniest little details. If he sees a, this little, like a, you imagine a a 20 cent coin reflecting three kilometers away, he see, he's seen that or he is seen that slight lump. Right on the horizon. And he's, because of his experience combined with, he's actually focused on looking, he's so hungry. I want that wave. I want the next set. I want to be first. He's so hungry for it and so focused that he sees it coming first. And again, it's looking for the details, not just in the wave that you're surfing, but while you're waiting, like can you see that set coming before anyone else? Is it an indicator on the headland and the distance? Is it a shimmer of a, of a chop being lifted by a set coming further than further out than you imagined? Is it a shadow of a set hitting a, a slightly shallower part of the, [00:10:00] of the top, uh, of the oceanography? You know, further out all these little finer details that not only help us to predict 'cause it's a game of what predicting when and where. To catch a wave that's the best surfer. That's what the best surfers do, right? They predict when and where the wave is gonna break before anyone else, and on a finer detail than anyone else. You can't do that if you can't focus. So looking for the details in the wave and in the ocean as those sets come in combined with increasing. One's ability to focus and stay present. Those are the two biggest things that come to mind when you ask that question, because that's the, the basis, the foundation of surfing. Right. Is can I see? The wave coming, can I get to where it's going to start break before anyone else ideally. 'cause it's usually crowded and even if it's not crowded, you know the earlier and the better po you are positioning, the more you're gonna get outta that wave. So yeah, that, that was, [00:11:00] those are two, the two things that come to mind. Yeah, Van Vu: no, those are, those are great. You know, I think it's so interesting that you mentioned that. I was interviewing Isaac Stanton. He is from the Northshore, uh, no, he is from Maui, big wave surfer over there and competitive surfer. And he talks about how surfing is just advanced basics. And what does that mean though? Like surfing. And I was talking to Marcello Castellano, like Olympic surf coach and he is like, people get so obsessed with doing a turn, you're just changing direction on a surfboard. But to actually change direction on a surfboard at high speed, you know, on rail is this incredibly intricate, difficult thing to do, but it's simple at the same time. There's just so many deeper, it just gets deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper The further you go into it, even though on its surface it seems like this very simple thing, and that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Most people look at a wave like you were sitting on that beach with Tom Carroll, and you're looking at that wave and you're like, oh, that's a wave. And then Tom Carroll sees like a [00:12:00] million things going on in that wave, you know? And. Whoever can interpret and understand all these little subtleties, they're just gonna, they're just gonna have this advantage. And I think it's so true. I mean, I think that that is actually why I was inspired by your podcast, because there wasn't much in terms of surf. Really granular surf knowledge out there. Um, and that's the reason why I ask such detailed questions as well. It's because you have to get into like the nitty gritty of things to really get the juice and get the value right. And so what you're saying makes so much sense. And it's funny that you also balance it at the same time with that, that need to focus it, right? Because there is so much, it's this weird, you know, dynamic that you're constantly trying to manage. Where it's incredibly complicated and dense and nuanced, but that can be so overwhelming that that can inhibit people from doing the next best thing that they should be [00:13:00] doing, and they can get overwhelmed. And then that leads to like analysis paralysis. So you need to both have all that knowledge. But then also be able to focus and use that knowledge when necessary at the right moment in time. And so your focus as well, that other pieces that you mentioned about knowing how to focus, knowing how to quiet your mind becomes like so instrumental when you're also combining it with. Having all this huge, you know, having so much knowledge and trying to find all these details, but they kind of go together, right? It's like meditation, like, you know, when you meditate you're actually trying to feel as much sensation and observe as much fine details as you can, and that process allows you to focus. But that's, that's, so that's really interesting that you brought those two up. You know, most of the time when, if. I was gonna ask that question. You know, it would probably be something technical, but instead, this is much more of like this philosophical, deeper, broader approach that really sets you on your journey. Huh. Oh, Michael Frampton: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's you. I agree. You gotta get the [00:14:00] fundamentals right and the great, the best surfers in the world, even good surfers. The fundamental skill is reading and predicting the ocean and reading the way that water moves and the way that waves interact. Because if, like, don't get me wrong, you know, I also think of a, you know, the first interview with Clayton. From Obi, you know, talking about how the surfboard actually works and the basic techniques of a bottom turn and a a top turn. The way he simplifies it is great. But if you don't have the ability to stay focused and present, and if you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you because you can't implement it and you don't know where to implement it. That's simple. And a lot of times people. The only thing people often when I, I do a lot of online surf coaching is doing a session yesterday and the surfer was doing everything right. He was just doing it about [00:15:00] half a second too early because he wasn't reading the wave properly. He wasn't present, he was just rushing ahead of himself. His body position was good. His technique was, was good. He was just doing it all. He just had bad timing essentially because he didn't know what to look for. He didn't know he wasn't reading the way the water was moving and, and, and knowing where to put his surfboard. So it's a very holistic thing, but I think it is the foundation. Like there's no point working on your bottom turn technique if you don't have the wherewithal and awareness to know where to put that bottom turn and to know and to be. Calm and present enough to know to implement that technique in the moment. 'cause a lot of the times surfing almost feels like, like you're, you're dancing in a disco and the strobe light's going. It's like these quick little flashes of what goes on. You pull off a wave and you're not really sure what happened 'cause you were so excited and maybe a little bit scared or feeling a little bit of shame or how do I look? [00:16:00] Or that sort of thing. So, and that. You know, for me that sort of being focused encompasses all of that. It's not as simple as just, you know, meditate for five minutes a day. It's, you know, there's a lot that goes behind that. When I work with someone, you know, we we're talking about developing your own personal surfing philosophy, like are, are you actually just a puppet of the surf industry? You're out there on a shortboard trying to rip a turn, or have you actually sat down and thought about. Where do you want to see yourself in 10 years time? Who actually do you wanna surf? Like would you wouldn't, you would, maybe you'd rather surf like Devin Howard than Kelly Slater, or maybe you'd just be happy just out there on a long board, just gliding along. A lot of people haven't even thought that through, and a lot of people approach. Their relationship with surfing in a very short term, hedonistic way. Whereas I'm, I'm here to say, no, no, no. Look, look at skip fry. He's in his eighties. He's still surfing like you. This is a long term relationship. Everything you do now [00:17:00] is, is compounding over time. It's compound interest. So when people sort of just 'cause I see surfing as more of an art really than, than a sport and it's. How do you wanna surf a wave? What kind of board do you wanna surf? Let's get outta that mentality of letting the surf industry decide for you. 'cause we go on Instagram, we're just fed whatever the surf, the latest surfboard that everyone shortboard, that everyone wants to buy, and. So-and-so did this air or whatever. It's fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but I, so, so yeah, developing your own personal surfing philosophy and then, you know, understanding that surfing is a relationship and how you want to interact with the ocean and, and surfboards, et cetera. So there's a lot of mindset, psychology and philosophy that goes in behind that as well, which I think is something. That definitely comes through in, in my podcast o over time, and obviously the technique stuff is really [00:18:00] important, but I think that's actually secondary because it's really, really hard to implement, implement the way that you do a turn and change the way you turn if you don't have all that other stuff sorted out first. And it just allows you to be calm. And have a lot less anxiety. 'cause anxiety in the surf, surf shame, we've all felt it. That just robs us of the present moment in the flow state, which is when time slows down and we actually, so when time is slowing down and you feel like, oh man, that wave was in slow motion. I knew, I knew what my little finger was doing. That's 'cause you didn't care what you looked like. You're, you got a good relationship with surfing. You were focused. On the ocean. You weren't focused on what other people were looking at or what's happening. You know that section way down there, you were present and you were focused. Time slowed down. Now we can look at changing your, the way you surf your technique and we can start looking at footage. And so I see surfing surfing's a very holistic Van Vu: Yeah, that's very interesting.[00:19:00] That's, it is actually making me think like, this is interesting. Usually when I have podcasts, we don't get into these kinds of philosophical discussions, but this, this, this point that you're making about, you know, the stress. That every surfer goes through, regardless of your ability level. You know, I remember I was viewing Ridge Lenny and he was talking about how like bummed he would get like, because he was working on his turns and he was trying to do, I mean this guy surfs a hundred foot waves at Nazare, right? He absolutely rips. He does airs and he was telling me about how like bummed he would get just when he's trying to tweak his turns, you know? So even surfers at the highest of, highest of elite levels still. Struggle with what you're talking about. You know? And I guess the interesting thing though is I like how you're approaching it from this like broader philosophical approach. 'cause I think that that mindset can just make, can make approaching [00:20:00] surfing and dealing with your setbacks much gentler. You know, and, and I, I would imagine that that is such an, especially in such a judgemental. The, the way surfing can be kind of culture. I think having that, like knowing how to reframe things, knowing how to focus and, and quiet your mind, knowing how to define your own standards of surfing and not measure it against why am I not doing errors or why am I, you know, comparing yourself to Kelly s slate. I think that is really important. Right. So it's, it is, it makes a lot of sense. But it's interesting. I also, when I think about it, 'cause when you were describing that, it just made me think. About my own process. You know, and it's interesting 'cause I've actually personally done a ton of meditation. I used to do like, there were like five years I was meditating, two hours a day. I was really focused in on it. And you know, I feel like I've done a lot of that work, but for me, this is just personal. Maybe you can give me some coaching here for me, even though I will. [00:21:00] I think it's both sides. I, I think if, if I, you know, 'cause I'm, I'm sure other people are having this question, so maybe you can help other people. They're like, they might have the same question I do. So that, 'cause I, I find this discussion interesting, right? Because I can approach a situation where. It's an intense packed lineup. Right. And you know, everybody's being watched, everybody's being judged. One of the spots I surf, there's like, it's a small town and you know, it's somewhere in Central America. I know. I know. Most of the guys in the lineups, they're all tons of locals. Like everybody on the beach is just sitting there watching you surfing. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So, and then that determines your pecking order. That determines so many things. You know, there's a lot that, that's the interesting thing about surfing is it's actually intensely social. Right. So it's a situation where you can get really in your head. Oh, yeah. Now the thing is, for me personally, like when I'm paddling out there, I will say. Those like affirming things to myself, you know what I'm saying? I'll be like, you're, [00:22:00] you know, it's not about other people. You don't need to compare yourself to other people. You know, all these things and which I think are, are healthy, but you still have that little thing, that little voice in the back of your head. And for me, the only way that I shut that off is if I put in the work and I put in the volume and I actually like do so much work that I have the confidence I actually will. Perform well and then that's when I feel like I have true confidence. 'cause otherwise there's still always this disconnect of where I feel like I should be versus where I'm actually, where I actually am. Regardless of like what kind of like mental framework. I think the mental framework helps like soften that. But I feel like if I haven't put the work in, then if I haven't gotten the volume in, if I hadn't caught enough waves, then I still. Maybe that's just my ego. Maybe that's just me not having evolved to a certain place, you know? But what would you say to that? Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, it's common and it's understandable. I don't necessarily think that [00:23:00] feeling ever disappears. Yeah. But when, when you really sit down and, and decide what is it that you want to get outta surfing and you question yourself. Like, oh, may, maybe, let me, let me put it this way. Have you ever been sitting on the beach and seen a good surfer mess up a wave and not surf to their potential? Van Vu: Oh, of Michael Frampton: course. Did you think less of that person? Van Vu: No. I mean, well, the, the thing is that you, it, it, it's pattern recognition. That's the way human beings are wired. Right? If they consistently blow it, then you're gonna be like, oh, you know. But if they're, if they blow every once in a while, then you're like, okay, you know? Michael Frampton: Yeah, but e, E, even if said person consistently blew it for a period of time, would you stop being friends with them? Van Vu: Yeah, Michael Frampton: of course you wouldn't. No, of course not. Right? Would they maybe potentially go down the pecking order a little bit in terms of getting set waves? Of course surfing, there's a hierarchy of competence in [00:24:00] surfing, and there's nothing worse than surfers wasting waves. So understanding the surf culture. Part of it as well. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And then that makes you think, oh gosh, maybe, maybe I don't wanna be fighting for set waves because of the pressure. So maybe I'm gonna, maybe I'm gonna buy an 11 foot glider and surf over there where no one else is surfing. Yeah. And just enjoy the pure joy of just gliding along a wave. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: So it's sort of thinking deeper. Where do those pressures. Come from, whether they're external pressures from a crowd or internal pressures against how you surfed last week 'cause you were surfing more or where you think you should be again, it can, what, what do you want to get out of today's surf? And there's nothing you can do of, you know, if you're, if you live somewhere and it's always crowded, there's nothing you can do about that usually. [00:25:00] However, I always find there's always. Somewhere where a different kind of surfboard would be surfing different kind of waves up the beach or around the corner where there's far less people. That's reminds me of another episode with Aaron James, a philosopher. He calls it adventure surfing, where he is just choosing the type of board and the to suit a different kind of wave that no one else surfs, which is what I was doing for a long time when I was living in California. Everywhere is crowded except when you're buying an 11 foot glider and just. You can surf over there where the waves are kind of breaking, but no one else is surfing. You just paddle over there and catch 20 waves in half an hour and you didn't rip a big turn or anything, but you still connected with surfing, connected with nature. Went through the process and that sort of, oh, I should be surfing like said surfer. On the on, on the tour. That just disappears and. That's what's cool about surfing is there's [00:26:00] so many different ways to surf. That's why I like to think of surfing as far more of an art form than it is a sport. 'cause obviously when you think of a sport and in another individual sport like tennis, you know, you, there's. There's far more restrictions if you turn up to play tennis with some weird looking ball and some oversized racket. I mean, people might not wanna play with you, right? But in surfing you can choose where you surf, what waves you surf, what surfboard, the style of surfing you wanna do. It's more like music, you know what I mean? Whereas you can be an amazing jazz musician and know all of the theory and be a technical virtuoso as a jazz musician, but no one ever hires you. They just don't really like your music. Or you can be some teenage punk band that's just playing bar chords, but you are, you're so confident in what you are playing and your style and people actually like it. And then obviously everything in between. So with surfing, you get to choose your style of surfing [00:27:00] and. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can think of the, the teenage punk band. They don't feel the pressure. Oh, I'm not a, I'm not a classical jazz musician with perfect technique. They don't care because they just love getting on stage or sitting at home in their bedroom, just practicing bar chords. There's no, whereas. That's the beautiful thing about music, I think is it's accepted that there's different genres and you can be a great musician in a very simple way, whereas in surfing, it's sort of the, I think the industry has got a lot to answer for in terms of the pressure it puts on on us. Oh, you need to be surfing the latest shortboard. Doing top to bottom surfing, or you need to be surfing a mid length like Devon Howard, or a long board like Joel Tudor with, well, you don't, you could just be like skip fry and just stand there looking right. Graceful and in tune with the wave. As long as you are not getting in people's way, it doesn't really matter. I think obviously there's some rules in surfing. You don't wanna annoy people or get in their way and there's ethics you've [00:28:00] gotta respond to, but apart from that, you know, you get to choose what you want to get out of your relationship with the Van Vu: ocean. Yeah. It's so interesting. I like this. It's like, it's really a question of values. Like what do you. What do you wanna take outta your surfing? What kind of surfing do you find aesthetic and beautiful? Like what do you aspire to? You know? And that's really gonna drive your approach to it, which makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm definitely guilty of that. I'm just obsessed with progression, you know, so I don't even question it. But I do think that there is a lot of, I mean, and when I say progression, like I, I think all of that is beautiful, you know, but I'm the kind of person that's always obsessed, like, okay, how can I do a better turn? Whereas your decision might not even be like, I don't even care about turns. I just wanna like take the most beautiful line. And you're right. That has just as much, that has just as much. Kind of value and, and is just as valid a form of surfing as all the other ones. You [00:29:00] know? Michael Frampton: Definitely I've been there. I've, you know, I wanted to, that's what got me in, that's what was the birth of the podcast. I wanted to know what surfing's so amazing, but what does it feel like to do a cutback like that? Oh my goodness. And the, the progression is obvious and there's a. A well-formed line in terms of performance in the surf coaches that do video analysis everywhere, and it's a great pursuit to do. I think now I'm a bit older. It's sort of. It's not like I've let go of progression, it's just I've defined it in a different way. So trying to maneuver a a giant surfboard through small waves is really challenging. It's really hard to do. I challenge anyone to go out there and try and surf a, a massive surfboard at a novelty surf, breakthrough. A crowd, I think is. It is a different kind of challenge. It's not easy. People make it look easy or I, or maybe the challenge is I'm just gonna sit out the back and catch that one big set that comes in 40 [00:30:00] every 40 minutes. You know, you can think, think of the old salt salty dogs who that's their goal. Yeah. So there's, I I, I guess it depends on how you define progression. I think also maintaining a, a level of surfing ability as you age is a pro, is a progression in itself. And don't get me wrong, if, if it's. You know, if it's, if it's six foot clean and barreling, I wanna be on a shortboard. Right. It just so happens it's not often like that. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: So true. Van Vu: No, it, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, when I interviewed Chris from Pilgrim here in, in New York, you know, he, he, he talked a lot about just getting on a, a glider and just the, the sensations and the feelings that he would get from riding. An 11 foot skip fry in like the tiniest of tiny waves. And that's exactly how you described it, is like, it's not easy, it's its own kind of challenge. Right. And that's often those challenges are, are oftentimes your, your greatest teachers. And so do you think, you know, as somebody that probably just deserves surfs, like a large variety of craft, [00:31:00] like what has riding an 11 foot glider, how has that informed your, you know, surfing on smaller boards? Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Huge. That was an interview I did probably five years ago with Bud Freis in Santa Cruz. He said, just get on a log. It's the best thing you can do for your shortboarding. I didn't really believe it at the time, but every, after every interview, I'd always try and implement at least one main takeaway from each interview. So I, I bought a log and started long boarding and. It forces you, you have to predict the wave in a very different way. When you're surfing a big surfboard, you read the wave differently, you interact with the wave very differently. And then when you jump back on a shortboard, it feels so much easier in a way because you've, you've kind of almost learned a different way to surf and you, you've had to hone in on some of the, some different details. On the wave, look for different lines. You, you [00:32:00] make, 'cause of the surfboard itself is, is longer and heavier. You end up surprising yourself how, what sections you can make, what lines you can take to stay, to stay balanced. You have to choose your line much earlier because it's not as agile. And all of those lessons can be applied to a shortboard just to refine. The way you move and interact with the board, but also obviously the way you read the ocean as well. And the same, I think the same goes with all different surfboards. Obviously with a, a big 11 foot glider that's even exaggerated more 'cause it's even longer and heavier than a, than a long board. But then you can go to the other extreme, you know, I've got, I've. Got surfer five two fish, and all of a sudden you've got almost zero swing weight and it's very touchy and sensitive, and you have to read the ocean and your wave selection changes. And then I just interviewed Donald Brink and he was talking about going as narrow as 12 inches on a surfboard. Yeah. Like going, how, how narrow can a surfboard [00:33:00] be? Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And I, it's all, I, I often think of it as like, let's say you're a. Let's say you are a musician and you play punk music, but you go off and spend a week learning jazz. When you come back to playing punk, you're going to, it's gonna be so much easier, and you're gonna hear, oh, you know what? I could add this note in. Oh, I could write a song. It's still a punk song, but I'm gonna write it based on the stuff I learned at jazz school. So what, whatever you choose to do, whenever you step out of it and come back. It. You bring those lessons with you, but more so it just makes you a more rounded surfer too. You think of a musician that has, has played all different styles. They might have one style they play most often, but every influence they've had and every mu, every instrument they learn, informs, informs them, makes them more adaptable. If you wanted to work as a musician, you could fit into any band. The more. The more instruments you play, the more styles of music you learn. [00:34:00] And because surfing's so dynamic, we want that arsenal. You know what I mean? Like I still see, I still, there's a, a break I surf here, which is, I call it a novelty wave. It's a point break and it's a very soft wave. It's very much a long board wave. But every time I go out there, there's 20 year olds on performance short boards, just pumping and hopping, and. Just getting front yelling, getting frustrated, and just like it's, I get you want to, you wanna learn how to surf a shortboard, but when the waves are waist high or knee high, why do you know? It's so much more fun to ride the surfboard that is appropriate for the conditions. And, you know, you can surf anything from Kneehigh to a hundred foot. There is no limit in surfing. You know, the, the, when you say progression. This wave size is a progression in itself. How, how far are you willing to push that wave speed? You can, you know, book a, anyone can nowadays can just [00:35:00] book a trip to the tropics and go and surf crazy groundswells and warm water surfing is so awesome. And the more we learn about different boards and, and styles of surfing, I think the just makes you more adaptable. Adaptability is, is a massive one in surfing, I think. Is it? Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Even, even at a wave pool, you know, every wave's a little bit different. Van Vu: Yeah. I remember, I think Steph was talking about, you know, what she's focused on now that, you know, she's not competing, is focused on competing, and she's like, oh, I, I just wanna focus on like how I perform in different variety of waves. That's literally what she's focused on right now. It's just there's a different set of conditions that I want to get good at. You're Stephanie Gilmore, you're probably good in everything, but there's, even for her, she's still like, I want to, I wanna be better in whatever, crappy waves or bigger waves or whatever that might be. You know? So that adaptability is so key. Well, so what are some of the, the biggest mistakes that you've seen people make? You know, what? What, as you know. What do you see people do? I mean, you, you've talked [00:36:00] about board choice, you've talked about wave selection, you've talked about the mental things. Are, is there anything else that you think really stands out to you as something that, you know, is something that people struggle with a lot? Michael Frampton: The, I think most, most surfers, it's that shame factor that gets in their way. They're, they're ashamed of the way they surf in it. It's a catch 22. 'cause it often drives them to get better and drives their progression. Van Vu: Yep. Michael Frampton: But if you think of a, I use the musician analogy again, the musician isn't, isn't going to practice on stage because if they, if you had to practice on stage as a musician, there'd be a lot of shame for years until you got good enough. But you can practice in your bedroom without. There's no fear of other people's opinions in your bedroom. So the hardest part of getting better at surfing is trying to, the problem with surfing is you have to do it on stage. 'cause there's usually, you don't really wanna surf by yourself, especially if you're a beginner. So letting go [00:37:00] of that fear of the way you look or what other people think of the way you surf is a huge one. 'cause that's the only thing that's gonna allow you to focus on the wave. First of all, so I often say to beginners, I mean, stop trying to learn how to surf. At first point, Malibu like, just, just go down to a closeout beach break and, and catch a hundred whitewater waves. You get to, you know, there is a difference between a, a whitewater wave and a whitewater wave. You can still learn how to read better. There's better whitewater waves. You know, you can still learn all the fundamentals of surfing, you can practice it and at close out beach breaks. On soft tops. There's less shame 'cause the only other people there are the people learning to surf or the the person sunbathing on the beach who's not even looking at you anyway. So there are ways to have less of that shame. So I actually think maybe it's have getting therapy done or figuring out or actually thinking about some of these deeper things about surfing philosophy that will help you. In terms of that. And then [00:38:00] so there's, that's the bigger overarching mistake that people make, which essentially is a lack of focus really. Because if you're feeling shame or anxiety, then that's just, it's just robbing your ability to focus on the present moment, which, and the wave and the way the board feels underneath you. 'cause you're worried about how you look or falling off, et cetera. It just robs you of that flow, state of that focus. 'cause when you, like, when you watch kids learn to surf, they don't care. They don't compare themselves to anyone, they're just messing around. They start playing in the whitewater with nothing, and then they go to a bodyboard and then they jump on dad's surfboard and they just pure stoke on the joy of interacting with the ocean, just riding the wave. So they don't have, just 'cause they're kids, they don't have that shame. So if we can, I think as adult learners, or adults that want to get better. As they age, you can adopt that sort of childhood joyous mindset and not care about what people think. Easier said than done. That's, that is [00:39:00] a big mistake that, that people make. Board choice is another one. You know, there's a lot of people out there just riding the, the wrong surfboards for the conditions. So I think matching the surfboard to the, not only the conditions, but to your level of surfing as well as like, sit down, have a think, do I really care about. Riding a performance shortboard, I think you'll find most people don't, they're like, actually, you know what I could do with a bit more volume and I just have more fun 'cause I know I'm not gonna, you know, so that, that's, that's the classic one that's, that's big. And then I, once you have the ability to, to focus in on surfing and then be on the right surfboard, then yeah. Cleaning up your technique is, is the obvious one there. Obviously getting some footage and working with a surf coach is. Is, is a good strategy, but I often, a lot of dry land, like outside of the water training is, I think is underutilized nowadays. So, you know, there's, I call it a, it's almost like a 1% ratio. So if you're surfing for an hour or [00:40:00] 90 minutes or a hundred, let's say, let's say you go surfing for a hundred minutes. Probably one of those minutes is actually surfing. I think that's quite a generous ratio. Oh yeah. So for sure. Yep. So think about that. You're, you're standing on a surfboard for one minute, for every hour and a half that you surf. How are you gonna develop the strength, the body awareness, the balance, all of those just fundamental athletic principles, how it's gonna take you years. So why not stand in front of a mirror and work on your technique? Work on some surf specific strength drills to, to be able to pop up smoothly and know what does a good functional surf stance look like? What does it feel like? All those, and then maybe even jump on a skateboard and, and lock in some of those surfing moves the way that a musician would run scales and chords. They're not necessarily playing a song. They're learning the basics and the fundamentals of the song. They wanna [00:41:00] play or learn by learning the chords and holding them so they sound nice and learning the scales. How do they sound? How do they feel or, and look at other, you know, older surfing's very young. It's a young sport or art form. Look at martial arts most of your time when you're practicing martial arts is, first of all, a lot of it's philosophy. Sometimes you're just standing there listening to the, the, the coach or the or the sifu speak about the philosophy of the tradition and then secondly, you're going through forms or Carters slow the movements that you need to do in a sparring situation. You're doing it slowly or strength training that movement. Purposely in front of a mirror, whether it's hitting a bag or doing the slow motion movements with someone in front of you. Only then can you go into a sparring situation where let's say you, let's say you wanna lift your arm up to do a block. If that movement of lifting your arm up to do a block isn't ingrained in your [00:42:00] nervous system and is almost thoughtless, there's no way you're gonna be able to do that movement in time as someone's throwing a punch at you because you're just. You're so scared. And essentially Kelly Slater calls surfing a martial art. And I like that analogy 'cause it's so, it's such a stressful situation, surfing. 'cause even if you're not aware of it consciously, subconsciously, your brain knows you're in water, you bump your head That's. And that happens all the time in little waves. People bump their head and they drown or they come or they have to be rescued. The sharks. This the list of danger. This, this is part of the reason why surfing is so fun is 'cause it actually is dangerous, whether you realize it or not. And then the surfing is a game of getting as close to the white water as you can without falling off as close to the most powerful part of the wave. You're toying with mother nature's energy. And when the waves get decent, that's, there's a lot of energy there, and that's what martial arts is, right? You're playing with an external force trying to dance. This good martial artist will dance with [00:43:00] aspiring partner, an external force, and flow with it naturally, but only if they've practiced those movements and learnt them ingrained in their nervous system. Only then can they implement those movements with speed under a stressful situation. So you think a great, we take it for granted how much time and effort and repetitions that these surfers who are good at it, put it. They've been surfing since they were four. Yeah. Now they spent five years learning how to read the ocean and playing in the ocean and getting slammed onto the, before they even stood up on a surfboard. Probably a lot of them just playing in the white water and messing around. Before they even caught an unbroken wave. I'm watching my kids learn to surf and it's, you know, they've been in at the beach almost all summer. Every summer for my 13, for 13 years. My 13-year-old, only this summer or last summer was he really starting to kind of get surfing. That's how long it takes. Surfing is a long [00:44:00] term thing. Van Vu: Oh yeah. Michael Frampton: And, but I, I think the cool thing as an adult learner is you can. Learn. I mean, look at Brad, Brad Gerlach, who's got the wave key, for example, where he's kind of literally broken the movements of surfing down into a martial arts kind of thing. That's next level, and you don't have to necessarily go that far, although I do think it's great, but the simple, keep getting your paddling fitness up like with your product is one big thing. And then learning how to do a popup in slow motion. Is another thing, and then learning what a basic surf stance is and how it feels. You get those three fundamentals sorted. Surfing. My philosophy is that once you stand up on your surfboard with your feet in the right spot, in the right part of the wave, on a good wave, the rest of surfing is easy. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? That is the hardest part of surfing, reading, knowing where to go. Reading the ocean, paddling around, predicting [00:45:00] when and where the wave is going to break. Entering that wave with good timing, popping up with good timing. That is putting. Making sure your feet are in the right spot, making sure you're not standing too tall or too low, having a good, simple surf stance, all of that stuff. It's all the hardest part of surfing, no matter what level you are. Once you're standing up, surfing's actually pretty simple, especially when you look at someone like ey, like he barely moves his body. It's all timing. It's all timing and rhythm. So the I, I think people also underestimate just how hard it is to paddle into a wave or to to paddle, to where the waves breaking and then paddle into the wave and pop up is the most athletically demanding part of surfing as well. If you think that it's yoga with dolphins, you're dreaming. You have no, like you, when you watch these athletes, they make it look easy. Yes. But they, they are very strong paddlers. They have very strong at popping up and they have a lot of strength and mobility through those movements. Most of them will take it for granted 'cause they've [00:46:00] been doing it since they were four years old. But that doesn't mean that we can't develop that with dry land training and. Starting to learn, what do we look for when we go surfing? Like that, sort of like knowing how to focus, what to focus on and training the body like a martial artist would train. That's the basis and, and, and paddling and your paddling fitness and all that stuff. That's the basis of your, of your surfing experience. And it's ironically, it's what we spend most of the time doing. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Like 99% of your time surfing. It's not spent surfing, it's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean, but a hundred percent. Yeah, no, I've, but you know, this 2015 where I really started to focus on, I was determined on getting better. I, I don't regret all any of it because now. Because I spent years just obsessed with surfing and focused on it and trying to get better and figuring out all this stuff. If I don't surf for a little while, [00:47:00] I can still go out in a, into a crowded lineup and, and even if I've never been there before. 'cause just 'cause I know what to look for, I can go out and, and get a set wave and surf, but not as good as any of the locals obviously. But just 'cause I know what to look for and it's such a cool place to be with your surfing. It's just to have that ability just to paddle out when you do get a moment. And just enjoy, you know, I choose the right surfboard for my fitness level and for the waves. I know what to look for. I know how to, to read the waves. But the, the, the break eye surf, I'd say one, maybe two out of every 20 waves that come through is actually quite surfable. It's a very novelty wake. You've gotta have the refractions from the headland and the, the right periods and the two swells meeting up for the wave to actually peel. Most people, I, I know how to choose those waves 'cause I know what's, 'cause I know what to look for. So, yeah, I, I think being probably one of the biggest mistakes actually, to give you an over an overall answer is people [00:48:00] just aren't obsessed with surfing enough. I kind of agree. Like, it's almost like, and I went through a stage two where I was sort of was like, I felt this obsession and it felt selfish and it felt wrong. I was like, I almost di denied it from myself. And then, then as I got a bit older, I was like, you know what? So what. I love surfing that night. Why not be obsessed with it? And that time I spent years just honestly, if I wasn't surf, every spare moment, I still had a job. I was still raising a family. But every spare moment I had, I was surf either surfing or watching surfing or researching what surfboards to wear, or watching tutorials on YouTube or reading, reading. There's, there's books on how to read water. I was upset. I was reading a different, I was trying different trainers and physical therapists to get the body in tune. Ev like for years, every single spare moment was surfing, surfing, surfing. And once I [00:49:00] accepted that and dove in, that's when I got better. So surfing is, it is one of the hardest sports or arts. Oh my Van Vu: god. Michael Frampton: Yeah. 'cause of all those complexities, we just. Touched the surface on, but that's what makes it so interesting and, and cool. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Is, is, is how Van Vu: tricky it is. It is the deepest puzzle that I've ever tried to crack myself. That's why I'm so obsessed with it. And I feel like that's why everybody's so obsessed with it. 'cause it's so fricking hard. Yeah. But then if you put the work in and you, it pays off, it's the best feeling in the world. Oh yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So that, that would be Michael Frampton: my, that would be my, my challenge to anyone listening is just do one year obsessed. Let's go through one season, summer. Spring, winter, autumn, or fall. Go through one one season of being obsessed with surfing. Spend your money on surf trips and surfboards and surf education and training equipment and personal trainers, or spend all your money on everything [00:50:00] surfing. Follow. The Ragland Surf Report and Jonathan Wayne Freeman on Instagram and learn about surf culture through satire. Like read books on how to read water, do every course that's out there on surfing. Go work with a local coach, work with online coaches. Just spend all of your money and your time obsessing and learning about surfing for one year, and then see how you feel after a year. 'cause it takes, I think it takes at least one year of obsessing with surfing before you even begin to know whether you even want to keep pursuing it. So many, so many people you see start surfing in summer. They have all this great experience on a soft top and warm water, and then all of a sudden it gets a little bit bigger and the water gets colder as summer ends, and then they give up. That's it. Well, no, come on. You haven't even, you go through the, the, the autumn and the winter, and then as spring starts to get warmer and warmer your second summer of surfing. If [00:51:00] you can push through that, my goodness. It's, it's so much deeper and, and more fun. That's the thing about surfing is it's so much fun. But I think like any relationship, you're gonna go through hard times. And if you, if you like any long-term relationship, whether it's with a human or the ocean, you can't expect it to be amazing all of the time. There's gonna be challenges. Now there's plenty of, I've never regretted a surf, but there's been plenty of times where I've forced myself to go surfing. Van Vu: Oh yeah. And that's so funny. 'cause. You don't even, you've only been surfing for a year or two. You haven't even gotten to the fun part. You know, I mean, you've gotten a taste like the tiniest, tiniest of tastes, and that piece, that taste that you get is like the best piece of cake you've had in your entire life, but you have no idea. What is awaiting you, you know what I'm saying? Like getting your first barrel, that piece of cake that you had is just gonna feel like something complete. You know, like you can't even explain it. So yeah, [00:52:00] those are, those are really wise words. I love it. Yeah. I really like your philosophical, like big picture approach, which I think is. Really unique. I haven't really heard people think about it or talk about in that context. I've heard little slivers of it. You know, there's, there's definitely philosophical surfers, but I've never, I've never had a philosophical surf education discussion, so I, I really appreciate that. But we gotta work towards closing up. I got a couple, few last questions for you. Michael Frampton: Well, let me just say firstly, let, oh, yeah. All of that, all that stuff I've touched on, I've. The stuff I've learned through not only doing the podcast and interviewing all these people, but whilst I was on that journey, I was putting all those lessons into place on my own surfing, as well as working as a surf coach. So all that stuff is all in a course on surf mastery.com. So if you go to surf mastery.com, there's a mini course that gives a really concise overview of, of the stuff that happens in between when the surfboard's under your arm and under your feet, essentially, all the stuff that other coaches aren't. [00:53:00] Going into, and then all the stuff, technique stuff, I, I do as a one-on-one sessions as well, which you can, you can book there at, at surf mastery.com as well. Awesome. Van Vu: And then are you on, you're on Instagram, what's, what's your social media handle? Michael Frampton: Yes, Instagram Surf Mastery on Instagram as well. Yep. I'm not overly active on there, but I definitely, if I want, once I post a new show, I'll, I'll put a little snippet on there and certainly add some of the, the, the more, some of the more curated surfing that I see on Instagram ends up on my story as well. Van Vu: Okay. Got it. All right then. So people know where to find you. I last three questions and these are you, we, we gotta, we'll keep these ones short 'cause these are actually big questions, but just like your short answer, any light bulb moments when it came to technique bottom time, they either light bulb moments either when you interviewed somebody or in a realization you had yourself when it came to technique. Michael Frampton: I mean, I remember my first proper bottom turn. And [00:54:00] remembering how, how much strength it took to do it and how much force was going through the board and my legs at the time. I was quite surprised and I was lucky to, to enough to have having been filmed. So I saw evidence and it was the first time I'd really sling shotted back up the wave, you know, three times faster than every other bottom turn that I'd done previous. And it took, gosh, you know, that was 15 years into my surfing journey before that happened. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And it's the, in terms of everything, everything that happens after you've stood up on a surfboard, the bottom turn is the basis of that for sure. Alright. Van Vu: Any light bulb moments when it came to boards or fins? Michael Frampton: Oh yeah, lots. I mean, getting, getting into long boarding was a big one, I would say. Yeah. Just getting into bigger surfboards. Yep. Whether that's a. A big, a bigger, you know, whether that's a seven foot mid-length or a 10 foot long board, just stepping outside of the, of the shortboard [00:55:00] mainstream and whatever the mainstream pushes at you. So I would say my first one was, was getting a log. I got a a nine, it was a nine eight Wayne Rich that I got. That really sort of made me fall in love with bigger surfboards, which then led to a bigger glider and, and, and some of the mid lengths as well. Van Vu: Okay. And what is your intention when you go for a surf? What goes through your brain? Michael Frampton: Ooh, my intention when I go for a surf, first thing that comes to mind is to enjoy it, like to have fun. And I think the funnest thing is, is molding with or dancing with nature. Like listening to the wave and, and what whatever surfboard I've chosen and whatever wave I'm surfing, just trying to be in tune with that and do what's right in that moment to dance with, with, with nature and, and be in a flow state. That's the intention. I always, there's a quote I like to say to, to people, which is, don't try and catch the [00:56:00] wave. Accept the invitation to dance. So there's another little tip there in the mindset. And I think that's a good question because yeah, if you're trying to catch the wave, there's this certain, like you are trying to, you know, you're, you're trying to go hunting for it or something and catch it. Well, the wave's just gonna do what it does. You actually, if your intention is just to accept, it's inviting you, the wave wants you to be on it. If you have that. Initial intention, the wave wants you to dance with it. Then it's not only gonna help you catch the wave, but help you sort of get in in into sync with it a bit more often. And that's what all good surfing is. Really, it's in sync with the wave. Alright, I guess we'll close Van Vu: it on that. Well, thanks for joining, Michael. This was a pleasure and people know where to find you and yeah, well, yeah, a lot to do this again sometime. This was fun. Awesome. Thanks Van. Appreciate it. Michael Frampton: Thank you so much for tuning into the show. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. Make sure you subscribe and of course, go and check out the Surf [00:57:00] Basis podcast. Uh, van has quite the back catalog. And remember, if you like what you heard in this episode, make sure you go ahead and check out the Surf Mastery Method mini course. And all other free products available@surfmastery.com. You know what? You know why I made the course. It's, uh, we all know how important the bottom turn is to set up the wave, but do you know what's more important than the bottom turn? It's how you pop up. Yeah. If your pop up isn't smooth and balanced. Good luck trying to get a good bottom turn in. And guess what? If you haven't read the ocean well and chose a right wave and timed your popup well, looked where and when to pop up, set the right line, all the stuff that happens before you even get to your feet, if you've messed all of that up, a good bottom turn simply isn't going to happen. So that is what my course is all about. What happens between when the board. It's under your arm and under your feet. That [00:58:00] includes the popup reading waves, the stuff that really makes the difference in your surfing journey. That is what the Surf Mastery Method mini course is all about. So go ahead and check that out@surfmastery.com. And also remember, the Surf Mastery Podcast is their educational back catalog. So go through and listen to each episode if you're new to the show until next time, to keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/97b288b2-7b09-4acc-b8c4-6c04e6aa5240/Kyle+Thiermann+surf+mastery+podcast.png?format=1000w] What if the key to mastering any craft - surfing, storytelling, relationships, or even table tennis - lies in simply slowing down and noticing the smallest details? In a fast-paced world that often rewards intensity and output, we easily overlook the quiet power of presence and reflection. Whether you're navigating the chaos of Mavericks or confronting inner narratives, this episode reveals how attention to detail can reshape not just your performance, but your perspective on life itself. * Discover why focusing on one small detail - like the placement of your back foot - can dramatically improve your surf sessions and silence self-doubt. * Learn how table tennis taught Kyle Thiermann a life-altering lesson about humility, ego, and mastery that spills over into his big wave surfing. * Explore how interviewing his parents not only led to his new book but also transformed his relationships and deepened his empathy through the art of asking better questions. Listen now to uncover how Kyle Thiermann’s philosophy of detail and reflection can elevate not just your surfing, but your entire approach to growth and connection. Kyles' - Book:  https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougo [https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougo] Website: https://www.kylethiermann.com [https://www.kylethiermann.com/] Insta: https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/ [https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/] Kyle was first on the show in 2018 - episode 27 Kyle Thiermann is a surfer, podcast host, and author of One Last Question Before You Go, a book about why you should interview your parents. Music: Leo Meizoso - Soul Elegance  Michael Frampton: Kyle Thiermann is a writer, podcast host sponsored surfer for Patagonia, and most recently a published author, which is very cool and a book I am excited to talk about. But before we get into the book, I was just looking through the notes of our first podcast back in 2018 and the most important advice that I took away from that interview, you probably don't remember it was quite some time ago, but was basically to slow down and look for the details, which reiterated. Something that Tom Carroll said the year before that he was guest number two on the podcast. And that's what he said. He said, look at the details. 'cause the, what sparked the conversation with Tom was, Tom was, you know, a good 10, 15 years older than me, and we went surfing before I interviewed him. And the waves were maybe waist high, high tide, no water, drawing off the bottom. And here's this old man like doing full roundhouse cutbacks on waves that I couldn't even catch. And I was scratching my head. He's like, I can't even catch these waves. If I do, I'm like pumping, just trying to stay with it. And you're just flowing these beautiful round out, like, what is going on? What am I missing? And he's just like, oh, it's just, you gotta look for the details. You go look for the little ripples and the secondary swells and the back washes and it's like trying to get blood out of a stone, surfing small waves. And if you don't have an eye for the finer details. You'll never do it. So it was really cool to, to have you sort of reiterate it as well. And the question I have that comes off the back of that is, is that still your philosophy in surfing and in other parts of life? How has that changed? How has that evolved? Are you still looking for the details and trying to slow down in surfing? What's been going on since we last spoke? Kyle Thiermann: I love that you checked out our last podcast because, , that's great advice that I should still give myself, uh, younger, wiser, Kyle Thiermann, uh, said that, and it's a very good reminder, uh, particularly, you know, if we want to take this concept of looking at the details specifically to surfing. I find that my worst sessions are when I I'm thinking too broadly about myself as a surfer. As an example, take off on the first wave, , try and hit the lip mistime it fall. All of a sudden this flood, and maybe it was just me, but this like flood of negative narrative enters my brain. Like I was never that good at surfing. I, my best days are behind me. , , this board doesn't work. Like these grand brush strokes of negativity can often, , build just a, a narrative that can ruin a session. , And, what's in common about all of those narratives are that they're too broad, right? That you're thinking about yourself generally. And I think one of the best antidotes to negative self-talk is to look at the details. So, okay, now I'm gonna take off on this next wave and I'm just gonna think about. Where my back foot is placed on my pad. I, I find that that's actually one of the healthiest things for me to think about when I'm taking off on a wave is where is my back foot, because that's the control center of surfing. I grew up, um, actually before I started surfing, started surfing when I was maybe 10, 11 years old. Uh, but before then, I was a really serious skateboarder. And still, you know, I had halfpipes in my backyard growing up. My older brother built this crazy six foot, six foot halfpipe with a seven foot extension. So growing up in Santa Cruz, I was very much a, a, a, a multi-sport athlete and the bad habit of skateboarding. , That can transfer to surfing and it transfer to my surfing is that you put too much weight on your front foot. , 'Cause skateboarding is when, when you're pushing down on a halfpipe, when you know, you, you are more centered over your front foot. Whereas surfing the control center is in the back. So it's something that I've really had to fight my whole life. Um, a bad habit to break. And even still, when I surf, I can just focus on the back pad. Okay, where's my back foot? That's a small detail I can think about throughout a wave. And suddenly, because I'm thinking about that, I can't think about this bigger narrative of how good I am as a surfer, which is not gonna help you improve at all. You can take all those details just focusing on one thing. You know, I think a, a, a great theme of your podcast really is. Breaking apart this vexing craft of surfing into these smaller and smaller bite-sized chunks. And that's how improvement happens, , from an athletic standpoint. And it's how improvement happens from really any task that you want to take on extrapolating that concept out to, , writing, which is, uh, uh, um, what I've been focusing on quite a lot over the last few years, if I'm looking for a story to report, I was just down in Porto Escondido reporting a story for the Surfer's Journal. It's gonna come out in a number of months. All I'm looking for is details. The, the thing that we hate reading about are generalities. The thing we love is, is reading about details. The best writers are always writing with their five senses. What is the, what did the streets smell like? How hot was it that day? What did it actually feel like to be there? And it's, . Quite profound what being more specific with your thoughts can do for happiness. Michael Frampton: Broadly speaking, do you think that just makes you more present in the present moment? Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it also gets you out of your own head if you're just thinking about the tactile feeling of what's around you, the board, the waves. , You're, it's really hard to think about yourself generally, and a lot of, uh, suffering that happens and a lot of just bad sessions, bad surf sessions are the result of you thinking about yourself too much. Michael Frampton: . Usually in the past or pre or future as well. When you, when you feel you get stuck in your head, you're usually thinking you're judging yourself of how others might think of you, which is something that is maybe happened in the past or is about to happen in the future. Kyle Thiermann: Oh yeah. It's just imaginary arguments in our heads. Yeah. All day long. Right. And, and one of the best things about surfing, and the reason I've been addicted to it since I was 10 years old and still do it on a, a practically regular basis, is that it is one of the best ways to get out of our own head, because there's just so much going on, you know, and, and, um, I, one of my favorite things to do is take nons surfers out surfing for their first session because it's like. It's like taking someone on their first acid trip or something, they're like, whoa, I had no idea this thing, this whole thing even existed. They're so outside of this, um, conventional context, you know, the day-to-day on the phone, standing upright on your feet, on solid ground, like we've all experienced that if we take someone surfing that sense of awe that they get, and it, it can be easy to forget that when we be, when surfing becomes a more normalized and habitual thing for us. , And I think it can take more effort to get out of our own way, , and into those little detailed moments. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Is it the only way that you can surf Mavericks? Kyle Thiermann: Well, if you're surfing Mavericks and you are distracted from what's happening right in front of you, you're gonna get yourself in a lot of trouble really quickly. It's very easy for that to happen because a lot of times if you're out surfing any big wave, you know, you might catch only one or two waves that session, right? When you're surfing big waves of any kind, chances are, you know, unless you're Kai Lenny, you're not gonna catch that many waves per session. And as a result, there's a lot of time sitting. Uh, and in that sitting time you can start to daydream, uh, certain narratives. And one of the best things that, that I've found is to just try and stay focused on the tactile feeling of being out there, you know, cold water on the face. How do I feel in my body? Paddle strokes. Like, and, and for that reason, I have a real hard time going out to big waves on a boat and just jumping straight in the lineup because I, I feel that I don't get that warmup period of paddling out through Whitewater and just getting sens sensitized to my body. You know, it's a pretty weird thing that you can go out to a place like Mavs on a boat, paddle 15 strokes, and all of a sudden you're in 50 foot waves. Like that shouldn't happen. Right. You just feel like you're like dropped into a, a completely different atmosphere and uh, yeah. I mean, if I ever take a boat out there, I always make sure to paddle around a little bit, go underwater, do a few breath holes, and just get into the feeling of this new environment. Michael Frampton: , I imagine it. I just had a, a, a, a picture of, you know, when you, you're at a concert and you want to go to the front, your favorite band's about to come on and you want to, and you have to pick a line through just chaos. Pure chaos. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And if you, and if you focus on the crowd and the different individuals, and it almost seems like there's no way through when it's just so overwhelming. But if you just try and look for the gaps in the crowd and be polite and make your way through, you end up. Navigating all of this chaos and you achieve your goal. I imagine that's what negotiating a drop at Mavericks is. Like, if you don't choose exactly where the center of your board is going to go, you might get clipped. Do you have to sort of ignore the, the, the chaos in a certain way? Or are you trying to Oh, a hundred Kyle Thiermann: percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, uh, you know, I once did a podcast, uh, with Grant Washburn, who's, who's Surfed Mavericks more times than anyone ever. I I think he, he's documented every session. He's been out there more than a thousand times. He was part of the really early crew to be out there, and he's still out there literally every time it breaks. I mean, this guy is one of surfing's most underground s of all time Grant Washburn. And I, I had him on my podcast and was, um, asking him about like, what do you, you know, what tips do you have? And he said, uh, Maverick's is a wave that you gotta cut off at the knees. And I was like, what do you mean by that? He's like, it's a slab. So you can't be on top of the wave when you're, when you are dropping in, you actually have to, like, you wanna be taking off on that wave, like you're cutting it off at the knees. Like taking, if, if Maverick's is a giant, you wanna be dropping in and the knees of that giant and it'll look like you're taking off from the top of it. But that was a really big unlock for me, surfing that wave, because how you fall out there is you, you are not paddling hard enough and you think that you're in the right spot, but really you're on top of the lip and then you're coming down with the lip, right? You need to be lower on a big wave than you think you are, um, to actually make that drop. So that changed where I was looking when I was paddling for waves. Now, if I'm, if I'm paddling, if down the face. The 20, 30 foot wave, I'm looking at the bottom of that wave. So directly in my line of sight, I'm, I'm looking at the trough saying I'm going to get there, like I'm sprint paddling to the bottom of the wave on camera. Then it looks like you're on the top of the wave because that water's sucking up so fast. But if you're not really putting all of your energy down the face, you're gonna be farked. And there was a whole season where I was just, I was going, I was just, um, poking my nose on like every wave. It was a, I had the wrong board and I was not thinking about that directly. And it was like, holy shit, am I one of those wipe out guys? Like, am I like one of those? I was like, I was, and it was fucking with me. I was like, I. I don't feel like I'm a kook. Like there are, there are kooks that surf mavericks who are really just not good surfers, and they yard sail on most waves. They go on and, and shouldn't be out there, but they, whatever, they're gladiators. Like, I'm not gonna tell 'em not to do it. Um, but it's not well respected. Like you're falling on every wave. Something's something should change. You shouldn't be celebrating all of your fucking wipe outs on big waves. Like it's dangerous. It's putting other people in danger. Like you should have a, you should have a pretty good batting average if you're gonna be doing this consistently. So there's this whole season where I was like. Dude, what is wrong with it? Like, I just keep falling. And part of the reason was that I, I was on a board that had two beaked of a nose, so it was poking down on the convex of the wave. But also I was just, I was just focusing on the wrong things. Like I just, I was not looking in the right spot. And it, you know, surfing bigger waves is on the face of it very simple because you are just going straight essentially, or maybe doing a big bottom turn. Um, and you can get lucky, you know, a very average surfer can paddle into it, a huge wave. But for the guys that are really good at it, , there's a, there's a delicate dance and there's so many details that are, that they're taking into account that you are, that you're just not seeing. And it's a, a very, , high performance sport, , under the hood. Michael Frampton: . Did any of those realizations at mavericks inform your small wave surfing? Kyle Thiermann: Hmm, good question. Yeah, I mean, I love talking about small wave surfing because that's what I do all the time and, and people don't really ask me about it, you know, I'm like, well, you get like a dozen sessions a year out in big waves. But the reality is like, I'm just a surfer and I enjoy surfing bigger waves. But, uh, yeah, and small wave surfing is, is just as much of a love for me. , The, the shift happened for me was starting to take notes on my sessions, , and I got this idea from Kai Lenny. He apparently has a notebook and he will jot down notes after all of his. His big wave sessions to try and improve on the last thing that he did. So it was a season, uh, 2021 was arguably the best season ever at Mavericks. Uh, it was just day after day after day of really clean waves. Uh, it was the season that Peter, Mel got his historic barrel out there, and I started taking notes on every session. I, I started noticing that you can sit a little deeper and a little further inside. A lot of people sit, I think, too far out and on the shoulder and just playing different games, going out with more of a strategy and then coming in, whether or not it worked, I would write down notes, um, and, you know, going into the details, right? And then coming out with more of a specific plan. , And then I took that approach to small wave surfing. Now, I'm, I'm not gonna lie and say that I write notes on every small wave session, but, . I found that if I would just go out and, and, and think about one thing, , so for me it was like, okay, I'm gonna try and do less turns on a wave, but not do the, the double bottom turn pump that I so, so horrifically still, uh, have adopted. , I would improve, you know, and I could take that as a win if I would just go out and focus on one thing and then jot down those notes. It felt like it was giving me a stepping stone to improve as a surfer. , I think that that was probably the biggest habit I adopted, that started from big wave surfing that I now apply to small waves. , Yeah, I, I'll I'll let you know if I think of any others, but just the note taking, uh, is something that I've, I've applied across the board. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Which is reflecting, you are just reflecting on the, on what happened. Totally. Kyle Thiermann: And that's a, you know, this is a real, um, big aspect of, of learning generally. There's, there's a huge amount of science around how we don't learn by doing. We learn by doing, then reflecting on doing, on doing. Um, neuroscientists have actually studied that the efficacy in, in learning a new language or, or any skill is just hugely ramped up by doing the thing. And then that night, writing down what you did and then having a good night of sleep. This is Matt Walker who wrote, uh, why We Sleep, really talks about sleep as a, as a superpower. And if you can reflect on what you did that day through a little five minute journal sesh, then go to sleep. Uh, it's a superpower. Right. And, and the problem with, I think one of the biggest problems with smartphones is that we. Cut off this potential for learning because right after we go surf, do a workout, even if it takes two minutes to just reflect on it, all of a sudden we're back on our phones looking at social media, looking at text, and we're not actually integrating what it is that we just did into an embodied skill. Michael Frampton: Yes, you're right. Smartphones have kind of robbed us from that. 'cause I grew up before smartphones and af after a surf, you, you just sort of sit and watch the ocean and drink some water. And I think there's an element of self-reflection and, and or talking about the session with your friends rather than just checking messages and onto the next thing. Kyle Thiermann: Boredom, man. Boredom is, uh, is one of the most powerful emotions we gotta bring back boredom in our culture if we want to, if we wanna move forward. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Like boredom forces a reflection of the details, perhaps. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I mean, it just gives, you know, there's, , these different kinds of consciousnesses, right? That, uh, it's been talked about by Michael Pollan, the writer who, , who wrote, uh, how to Change Your Mind book about psychedelics. And the, the different consciousnesses that he talks about are spotlight consciousness and lantern consciousness. So Spotlight is, I'm focused, I am, , on a wave directing where these thoughts are going. Fully engaged. Lantern consciousness is that soft eyed reflection looking out at the waves, just chilling. . Maybe you see connections, right? That's where metaphor comes in. Lantern consciousness. Like, oh yeah, this is kind of like that, which is kinda like this. And both are really important for the human brain to be engaged in on a daily basis. , Our society is really set up for spotlight consciousness, just that highly caffeinated, white knuckling forward, and we don't, um, really give the value of lantern consciousness that it deserves. Um, you know, that's why, you know, driving is so nice for people, right? You just get to chill out and then you come up with bigger ideas with lantern consciousness, right? You're like, oh yeah, I should start that business. Or maybe this relationship isn't right for me, or, oh, you know what? I'm gonna marry that girl. Like you have big aha moments with lantern consciousness. So, um, it's, it's something that I think like exercise. We should try and make more room for. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that lanin consciousness only sort of comes about with calmness. You have to be calm and relaxed, get rid of that tunnel vision and be aware of everything. And also, you mentioned driving. I mean, the only, the only way that you can have that lanin consciousness when you're driving is because you have previously had spotlight consciousness on driving and you've learnt to see the details and the surface of the road through concentration and purposely having to do it where you're learning to drive. Right, Kyle Thiermann: right, right. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And then that, and then that becomes a, a bit of a habit and then. You go and teach someone else how to drive and you're like, oh, now I sort of take for granted how good I am at reading the road. Kyle Thiermann: Totally, totally. Yeah. Just, I mean, and, and Tom Carroll probably takes for granted just all of the micro details he's seeing in a wave, you know, that, that you or I might need to focus on still. Right? Uh, there's, um, there's, you might know about this already, but I'll, I'll say it to anyone who's interested. It's, there's these various levels of learning that people talk about, and the first level is unconscious incompetence. So let's take this to surfing. Unconscious incompetence is the kook who doesn't even know he's a kook. Like it's so oblivious to surroundings that has, that he has no idea how bad he even is or, or what a danger he's causing to the lineup. Conscious in incompetence is when this person actually realizes. How bad they are, and that's a step above unconsciousness. We're like, wow, I suck and I'm good enough to know how bad I suck. The next step is conscious competence where all of a sudden this person's been serving for a number of years. They know how to do it, they're getting better at doing it, but they need to think about the act on the water. And I would say that's where I am with my, my surfing. And very rarely am I in, in this the next stage, which is unconscious competence, where you don't even need to think about what you're doing and you can, uh, do it. Most of us are to that place when it comes to driving because we've driven for thousands and thousands of hours through our life. Like most of us are unconsciously competent at driving. But you can take those various spheres of learning, , and extra extrapolate 'em out to anything. It is pretty, , pretty fun to think about. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I guess with maybe with surfing, it's like if every time you drove. The road was different and treacherous and you would kind of be, there's sharks Kyle Thiermann: on the road. Michael Frampton: Yeah. You'd kind of be forced to be not quite so relaxed. And that's kind of, that, that's what makes surfing so unique and fun is it, is is always so, so different. But there are always details you can, you can focus in on. Um, I wanna segue into table tennis. Ooh, I'm ready for this. So I was listening to you interview Derek Sivers and you talked about your little secret, uh, table tennis tutelage. Kyle Thiermann: Yes. And you Michael Frampton: know, Derek Ss lives Kyle Thiermann: in New Zealand now. Yes, he does. In Wellington. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's amazing. Derek Sivers was, uh, my top podcast guest that I wanted to interview when I started my show. Eight years ago. Michael Frampton: Yep. Kyle Thiermann: And I finally got him. It was a really, really special chance to, to get to sit down with him. And he was just everything I, I hoped he would be in more, you know, when you, when you get a hero on the show, part of you is afraid that there'll be an asshole. And I was very pleasantly surprised at what a, a humble and brilliant guy Derek Sives was. Who, people who don't know. He's a, um, an entrepreneur and, and philosopher has written a number of brilliant books. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah. I urge you to go and check out Kyle's interview of Derek and, uh, that will, that will give you a, a taste into Derek's world and his book. Oh, what's it called? How to Have Anything or Anything You Want, anything You Want. Great book. What a cool book. Just not just the concept and. What the content of the book, but just the way it's written. Kyle Thiermann: Oh my gosh. It's so good. Yeah. Uh, hell yes or no is another one, which basically means you should the answer to things. The answer to dec your decision making process should either be a hell yes or a no. Do you wanna go do this thing Hell yes or no? And, and so often we kind of make decisions with this. Yeah, okay. Maybe, but I use that, uh, framework pretty often in my life. But yes, table tennis, uh, do you want me to tell you the story? Yes, please. Okay. So in Santa Cruz where I grew up, , there is, or at least there was for years, a table tennis tournament. . At the end of, of the Cold Water Classic, which is the, the WQS contest that would come to town every year and all the, the big pros would, uh, would come to town and, , I fancy myself are pretty good table, table tennis player as do most people, right. We all, we all think we're pretty good, but, but my friends and I were, were vicious. , And at the end of the cold water classic Ryan Buell, who, who later started Buell Wetsuits, would do a tournament at his house and like all the best surfers would come. Luke Rockhold, who is this UUFC fighter from Santa Cruz, was a really good table tennis player as well. He would come, I think the win the winner of the tournament got a hundred dollars in a bag of weed. Like it was just epic, but like highly competitive. Right. And I, um, met Luke in the semifinals of the tournament one year. And he beat the shit out of me. I mean, this guy's just an incredible athlete with like a six four wingspan. And I was so pissed off that I went home that night and Googled table tennis coaches. And it turns out in Santa Cruz there's this place, it's like in this rec room beside this baseball field, and there are table tennis coaches and players that go down there Tuesday and Thursday night. So I show up at this like underground rec hall. There's 12 ping pong tables laid out. There's people with like sweat bands, short shorts, Nike shoes, a whole bag. Like people won't just bring one paddle, they'll bring a bunch of paddles and the everyone's sweating. It's, this is a like nearly a full contact sport the way these guys are playing. And I went up to one of the coaches and I said, will you teach me your ways? And he said, I will teach you my ways. So I went in there every Tuesday and Thursday for the next year and I didn't tell anyone that I was going there. There are a few, you know, let's just say that I thought I was consciously competent in ping pong when I went in there and very quickly realized that I was still in basically unconscious competence. Like in comparison to legitimate table tennis players. There are just layers to the game. You know, it's like youth being like a local average, good surfer and then having fanning paddle out and you're just like, wow. He goes way faster than any of us. We had no idea. I mean, these guys are on their toes. They, there's just so much strategy involved in essentially tr you know, what they're trying to do is get, get their opponent on their heels because the second you can get your opponent on their heels instead of on their toes, you have them. And the spins off these balls are just going so fast that the further the, the more velocity these spins pick up, the harder it is to, um, to get them. I mean there was this one dude, he was probably like six, six black dude from Trinidad who was like the champion. Oh my God. I mean, he was always on the last table because the, the better you got, like you get, you would get to like meet the, the next best guy. I never made it to even like play him once, but I trained and I got better and I went to ES tournament the next year and smoked the competition. Oh, that's cool. And it was. So fun to not tell anyone about this thing I was getting better at. Hmm. That's the real lesson for me, and it's something that I pretty often will, um, will do now. I mean, I've been working on this book. One last question before you go. For the last three years and really have not told many people that I was doing it, and the reason for that, you know, it's funny, funny you should mention Derek s Siver because he, he does a TED Talk on how you should not talk about your goals. The reason for this being that, the moment I tell you that I'm writing a book, let's say I, I just came up with the idea and I'm like, Hey, I'm writing this book, and you say, oh, congrats man, that sounds so awesome. That gives me a little ping of dopamine before I've even done any work. So it makes you feel like you're further along on your journey than you actually are. So. To, to keep goals tight to your chest, uh, until they're very far along, um, is something that I learned from ping pong and I still do to this day. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. You mentioned already that, I mean, there's such a difference when you, you think you're a good surfer, or you think that the local ripper at your local break is an amazing surfer, and then a pro comes out and they're surfing. Sometimes it literally feels like they're surfing three times faster than anyone else, to the point where it makes no sense and you think, well, they're not even surfing. They're, they're, they're doing something else. That's what it's like when you see pros play table tennis compared to your mate who kicks your ass all the time. The, this, the ball goes so much faster. They stand so much further back from the Yeah, it's, it's, it looks like a different sport, so yeah. Going through that journey of diving into that world of table tennis and you obviously improved, did it teach you anything? Did you learn any deep philosophical lessons about that table tennis journey that affected you at the rest of your life and in, in particular surfing? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, I, um, I will say, you know, a, a, a couple things. I think first that, , it's really healthy as an athlete to cross train in other sports, , and sports that, you know, surfing is a hand, it's, you know, it's, it's very like leg eye coordination, right? And knowing where you want to go on that wave is often, dependent on where you're looking. , Like you gotta look at the part of the lip that you want to hit. , And I think that you, you can develop some really bad habits if you're only surfing and, and, and lessons can come in from other sports. So, I mean, with table tennis, , being crouched, low hand eye coordination, , and really just, just being not very good at something, like being kind of new to it, I think is very healthy for the ego. My least favorite people are the pretty good surfers who never leave their home break and are just grumpy old fucks who don't try anything new in life. And it's just, they're so comfortable and so certain in what they do, and they're not really like pushing it. They're just doing the same thing over and over, and they're pissed off and they're grouchy about the crowd. And we all have these people in our hometowns, and to them I just say like, man, pick up a new sport and try it. Because that feeling of newness and wonder and humility does bleed through to the sport that you know very well. , So I always really, I, I, you know, they say in athletics like, you should be doing your sport a third of the time with people who are worse than you a third of the time with people who are better than you. And a third of the time with people who are you at your same level? That's what's gonna lead to the, the most improvement. And I think you can take that concept out to other sports where all of a sudden you're the lowest on the totem pole and you remember what it's like to suck again, super healthy. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. What's the difference in the way you, let's say, if you remember the first time you, , entered this table tennis hall, to then maybe the last time just before you went and, uh, and, and played the competition. Did, did you see the ball differently? Like, did you start seeing the way it spins? Like did you, did your eyes learn Oh yeah. To move faster? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Well, you pick up, um, you pick up tells from your opponent, you know, so for example, if a, what a lot of people will do who are just average table tennis players is they'll hit the ball and then they'll keep the paddle backhand waiting for the next. Shot. And if I see that you are continuing to hold it backhand, I'm gonna hit to your forehand or vice versa. Really good table tennis players will hit it and then they'll bring the paddle straight to the center so they're then ready to go backhand or forehand and I don't know then where they're gonna go. Right? And, and a lot of them, what I'm trying to do is hit it to a place where it's gonna be awkward for them to return, but the second I see that your, um, arm is, is you're just wide open on the forehand. Like, oh, I'm gonna hit it there every time. So you just start to, to notice more details of your opponent. , And I would've seen none of that had this coach not taught me. , I, I also, you know, I think this is just a constant struggle of mine, , but I expect a lot of myself. And if I'm not good at a new thing, pretty immediately I, I get angry. Like I've always been this way. Like I'm, I'm competitive. I think I should be good at stuff. , And when I'm not, it, it, there's a period of time where, you know, when I was younger I would just, I was a little shit. Like I would throw tantrums when I couldn't learn something new. And, and it was, there was a huge amount of, um, you know, the flip side of expecting a lot of yourself is that there's self-loathing as well. Like, it, you, you flip between grandiosity and, and believing in yourself and believing that you can do great things. And then you flip to, I'm the worst ever. I suck. I'm, there's no value that I can bring. And it's just both, both of these are delusions, right? Like none of us, it's, it's never as good as we think it is, and it's never as bad as we think it is. But that is a psychology that I don't think my parents gave me. I don't think I learned it for a minute. I think I was just born with that fucking fire. And it has allowed me to progress really quickly because I will just put my head down and train in secret for a year straight to, to win a stupid bing pong tournament. But there's a lot of, um, just like anger and pain that can come from that. I mean, I, I've never told anyone this, but I remember, I remember going to this ping pong , hall one night and getting my ass kicked so bad that I got back in my car. Started crying, like literally I was alone sitting in my driver's seat and just started crying. And, and it wasn't that like, oh, these guys beat me. It was this idea like, I fucking suck. Like I'm so worthless. I'm such a piece of shit. Like just that hard voice that has, has been with me my whole life. Like, it just comes, comes in when I'm learning a new thing and don't have the competence to do it yet. , But that same thing is also, it can be an engine, right? Like it goes from that to like, I'll fucking see you next week. Let's do this. Like, you know, and that's the engine that I think has allowed me to get pretty good at surfing bigger waves, right? There is a lot of that. You see a lot of real, of good big wave surfers who are. Pretty dark, dark humans. Like they have that, that fuck you attitude like that, you know, it's, it's intense, you know, and they need that attitude to, to match the intensity of the ocean on those days. Um, and I love them, you know, I love them. Like one of my favorite people in the world is Jamie Mitchell, who, you know, he is won the 10 Paddle World Championships. He's an excellent big wave surfer. And like, I just, I'm like, I fucking see you brother. Like we are just intense dudes. Like we have that, that fucking fire. , And you know, for me, a lot of what I, and I think, you know, Jamie would say this too, he's very open about, about that. And we've had good conversations. Like to learn how to hold the knife and, and put a handle on the knife is, has been my work. Like to, to be able to know that you have this sharp edge, but you don't need to constantly be self-flagellating. , That, that's my, you know, life. That's, that's been my life path and my, and my lesson. I think the older I get, the better I am at just talking, speaking kindly to myself as I'm learning a new thing. , Just being a bit more at cruising altitude and, and learning that, okay, that voice is probably never gonna go away, but there are a lot of tools I can learn to not spiral as low when I'm on that process. Michael Frampton: It's fueling, that's the fire. Right. And you gotta learn to channel it, I guess. Yeah, I think so. Kyle Thiermann: I mean, I don't, I, I think that. Anyone who, who does really great things, has a bit of a fire in them. And if you don't see it, it's, it's probably because they've just gotten good at hiding their ambition. Speaker 3: Hmm. Um, Kyle Thiermann: but it's there. It's there. And, and I, I li I'm happy to talk about it. 'cause I think it's just, it's very common for us, you know, to, to feel that like, ugh, like I, I don't like losing, like, I want to get better. I want to improve. , But there's a, a certain amount of that that can also destroy you, you know? And, and, and I don't want to live a life where I'm not feeling the joy of the moment, the joy of surfing. Like I love surfing. It's a beautiful life. I'm, I'm really grateful for all that I get to. Experience. Like, it's just, it's such a, I feel so lucky to have been born into a place where I started surfing. , My whole community, you know, my friends, they're surfers. It's, it's such a, a wonderful, um, thing to get to travel around the world, you know, have friends like you. I'm like, oh, if I go to New Zealand, I'm gonna go see you over there. And in South Africa and Mexico, like, that's not a normal thing that most people get to, you know, enjoy and experience. Like we have a really beautiful group, a community. And, and to constantly be lost in my own neuroses about how good or not good I am, like, man, you're just missing the fucking point. And you're gonna get to the end of your life and think, wow, I, I was not focusing on the right thing. So it is getting better. And I do a lot, , like noticing the details to get outta my own way and just, you know, enjoy the session. Smell the flowers. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. It's on the seaweed. Noticing the details is something you've said a couple of times with the table tennis thing. You like, you're noticing the way that your opponent is holding the bat, and that informs your decision of what, so it's like slowing time down and focusing on the details is what allowed you to get better at table tennis. Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Michael Frampton: make, make smaller circles. Kyle Thiermann: Right? Michael Frampton: And then when you sat down to interview your father, I mean, that's kind of what you did. You slowed down and you focused in on the details of him. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, man, we're, we're, we're stretching this metaphor, metaphor all the way across life. But yes, I, I just came out with my first book, one last question before you go. It's, uh, a book about how and why to interview your parents before they die. Uh, and, and you know, the, the punchline of it is that. You know, your parents are just people, um, who have had lives long before you were born. And sitting down, stepping outta the role of child and into the role of journalist of interviewer can allow them to really take the floor and tell a few of these great stories before it's too late. Um, you know, if they're surfers. I'm, I'm doing a, a project with Surfer Magazine right now where we get surfers to ask their parents who are also surfers about like some of these classic sessions. Worst Wipe Out Best Barrel Your life. How has surf culture changed since you were. Younger. Um, a a lot of this stuff we just don't know about our parents 'cause we've never taken the time to ask. So the book is, you know, it's a how to manual on this is how you conduct a suc a successful interview. And it's also a memoir, uh, that includes, um, my mom, my dad, my stepdad, you know, a number of conflicts that we went through. But, um, really finding specific questions is one pathway to get great stories out of someone. Right? So, a, you know, what are you, you know, if you're asking what's the meaning of life to your parent, they're probably not gonna give you a great answer. But if you ask, tell me about that classic day in 1973 at Honolulu Bay, uh, when it was just you and two buddies out and they tell that great story, um, it's gonna be gold. You know, you're, you're gonna walk away with some digital family heirlooms that, uh. You'll be happy about. It's a fun thing. It takes about an hour to do, even on the smallest scale, right? You could just bust out your phone on the way to go surfing or, or at ho on the holiday with your parent and, uh, ask 'em some questions. And it can lead to some very unexpected places that can feel oddly psychedelic, um, because it can recontextualize them in your mind. And, and it's just a, you know, and at the end of the day, it's a nice thing to do for them. 'cause I think a lot of parents believe and, and think that their par that their kids don't have much of an interest in them. So it's a, you know, for me that was an unexpected benefit of this, just how much my parents enjoyed being able to tell the stories of their lives. Michael Frampton: Why did you want to interview your father for your podcast in the first place? How did that come about? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, it was COVID and I was just, uh, it was COVID and I was scared he was gonna die. You know, we were all really afraid, I think, during COVID, like, whoa, what is this pandemic? Um, how is it gonna affect us, the elderly? And I was forced to reckon with the fact that he wasn't gonna be around forever. So I decided to have him on my podcast. He told some, some epic stories, you know, he's this old documentary filmmaker who goes to the Santa Cruz flea market every weekend and Haggles, and, you know, owns only secondhand gear that he glues together. He has a famous line where he says, you can fix anything with glue duct tape, or a hammer. You know, like, that's his, his wife motto. He's probably gonna put it on his grave. But I, uh. I then released the show and a lot of people reached out. They were like, Hey, I want to interview my own parents. This seems like a fun thing to do. I've done over 400 episodes on my show and was like, well, you know what? There, as you know, Michael, like, there's a skill to this and you do improve your interviewing craft. So I decided that it could be a, um, it could be a book. At first, the first draft was very like, how to manual B, B, B. And then I gave it to some writers that I really respect and they're like, man, you gotta be more personal with this. You need to really let me know what it did for you. This is, yeah, it can be a cool thing, but it can also be intense to sit down with your parents face to face. And a lot of those, you know, we, we so often will, will build resentment, uh, towards our parents and they'll build resentment towards us. And there's this empathy wall that. Grows between us. , And that's, it's so common and it's so painful that the idea of sitting across from mom and dad and really looking them in the eye and asking them questions about their life can feel terrifying. Um, and you know, my, my story is that growing up I had a very close relationship with my mom. She fell prey to a number of conspiracy theories that fractured. Our relationship in various ways, because we no longer saw the same world, right? We, we today still believe very different things about, about the world. Maybe your parents aren't conspiracy theorists, but maybe you disagree with them about politics or parenting style or just how they see you. You know, that it's very common for us to have these ideological fractures. Questions are a way to open that up and, and take a step closer. You know, it's like there is this empathy drug, right, called questions. , But, but it's not a drug, it's a chair and a microphone. , So I found that after taking this year of, of interviewing my parents multiple times, it recontextualized them in my mind. It just added color to, wow. Who was my mom in college. She went to Berkeley during the 1960s when protests were happening, and the psychedelic revolution was fully in vogue. And wow. My dad, he was a, he's traveled the world as a documentary filmmaker. He, he was a magician in high school, paid his way through high school doing magic shows, you know, with tuxedo and top hat, like my stepdad, who, who who you know, has spent the last 20 years pushing conspiracy theory, documentaries onto the world like it. I mean, that, I was angry about that. And yet I didn't wanna lose that relationship. There's, we only have one family, and I, I believe that as adult children, it's kind of on us to take that step forward. Um, we are more well equipped than our parents if we can, you know, and I'm not saying that everyone should interview their parents. I'm not saying it's for everyone. You know, some people, the best course of action is to know, to go no contact. I don't know your parents, but I will say that if it feels possible to open up that crack, do it. You, you really won't regret it. And, and if anything, you're just going to deepen your shades of who these people are. , And it's, man, I mean, it, it's being on the other side of it now, you know, books out. A lot of people are interviewing their parents. Like, I'm really happy I took a personal approach to this story. , You know, it really is, it's a story about having a mom, losing her to conspiracy theories and using the interview process to get her back. But I, I, like, I, I interact with her now and, , I'm not as mad. Like it's a weird. I'm just not, I'm like, wow, I'm, I see you as a person and all of our stumbles and all of our hopes and all of our intents, like, I just have more like empathy for, for what what you are and who you are. And that feels fucking good, man. Like, it feels really, , like I'm more complete in that relationship. , Michael Frampton: Yeah. You under understanding, you understand that? I do. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. And it, and to, it's like that, and that made the whole book worth it for me. It's like, man, it's success. All the, all the success is secondary to that feeling that I, that I get, you know, like I, and same with my dad, you know, and we all, we all, uh, it's around the holidays, right? And how often do we go home? Turn into petulant little teenagers again, right? Because we're like, oh my God, I can't believe you always do this. You're so annoyed. He goes on and on about this, did it like it's, you know, we regress too and become less mature around our parents. I would always get mad at my dad for, you know, he just goes on these like fricking soapbox tirades about like the world and how it's going to hell in a hand basket and dah. I'm just like, oh my God. You know, I always would like get mad at him, right? And, and we recently went on a crabbing trip together up in Northern California. , And I found out I was just more chill around him. I was like, man, you're doing your thing. Like, it just a, it, it affected me less and that was a real win for me to be able to get on the other side of it and be like, wow, I, I was able to just be more chill around you. 'cause I see you as more than my dad. I see you as. As this person who I still really enjoy spending time with. Michael Frampton: Would he articulate anything similar? Like is he aware of the, the change in the relationship dynamics since that process? Kyle Thiermann: I think he would, yeah. Yeah. I think he would. He, he said, you know, this was a really rocked me when I first interviewed him, but he said, uh, he said, you know, I, I don't think you would've asked me any of these questions if we weren't doing an interview. You know, we, like, you're not curious about me. You're not, you've never been curious about me. And, and it made me feel really sad because he was right. I've prided myself on being a good question asker for my whole life. And yet I was not using that skill on the people who mattered most to me. Right. And, and I think that I've developed, um, more of a habit since then of asking how he's doing, asking what he's been up to recently. , The, the quality of question asking should extend beyond. Just a formal interview setting. You know, that's a training session for you. But the real benefit that I hope people get outta the book is to become better question askers generally. Michael Frampton: Hmm, I I think what you said is not right. I don't think that, so he, he may be perceived that you weren't interested. I don't think that's true. 'cause you wouldn't have gone to, you wouldn't have made a point of creating all, all you needed was a way to do it and you're like, okay, if we sit down and record it, then that just somehow for some reason, just sitting down in front of a microphone and the conversation being recorded, that creates the space for a different type of conversation, which allows you to push through the fear you had of maybe asking your dad this question. 'cause you might get the response that you had when you, when you asked a question when you were 13 or whatever. Kyle Thiermann: Right. Or it could be awkward to ask a, you know, so what's, , what failure in life, in early life do you now see as a success? Right? Like, that could be an awkward question to ask in the context of a regular conversation, but it's a great question to ask during an interview. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, you, you could be right. I mean, I think that the way he felt was that his kids were, were not interested in him. And the way I felt was there's no, or there's, it's harder to really go deep into the stories of someone's life when you're not in a formal interview. Setting. So I, yeah, it, it really did just take that podcast for us to take that next level in. And, , an interview is similar to a conversation, but there are a few key differences. You know, one is that you're really driving it as the interviewer, you're deciding where, where it is that we want to go next. You don't need to necessarily respond to what he's, to what your interview is. E is saying you can just move on to a new subject. , You know, it's, it's similar to conversation, but there are a few key differences that it can allow the person you're sitting down with to, to go deeper. Michael Frampton: Well, it changes the dynamic. You are, you are the interviewer of another human rather than the son of someone, which, Kyle Thiermann: exactly. Michael Frampton: It's so hard to, I, I can see why he might think that. Oh, I can see why any parent might think, oh, my kids aren't really that interested. Well. You are their parent, they're always gonna see you as a parent unless you break that mold. And that's what I really like about what you've done. And I, I bought, I bought my parents. There's a book called, uh, I Want to Mom, I want to Know Your Story. Yeah. I bought, I bought one of those books from my parents years ago, and I don't think they ever opened it. And they certainly didn't fill it in. Yeah, totally. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. I, I bless their hearts to everyone who gets that book. I mean, it's the, the issue that, and, and, and I mean, I, look, I, I hope people enjoy that book and they get value out of it. The issue that I see, , is that you're asking your parents to write down the stories of their lives, which is expecting them to be a great writers who can fill it in with vivid detail. , And b, expecting that that chicken scratch is gonna be meaningful to you later. , For me the, the value of audio and is really the, the, the bullseye here. , You know, my grandmother, um, she was a hundred years old. She passed away recently, and my mom, the day after she died, realized that one of the only recordings that she had of her, her own mother's voice was a, a happy birthday voicemail that she had left her. Like that was one of the few pieces of evidence of the, the tone and resonance of this woman's voice that had ever actually been saved and recorded. Um, and you know, when it comes to my own parents, like it's not just about what it is that they said. It's not just about the stories of their lies, it's how they sounded, you know, voice is. Voice is so different than just words on a page. , So if you can, yeah. I mean, by all means, have them fill out the stories on, on a piece of paper, but really, you know, pull out your phone, use the voice memos app, or get pro microphones and, and get them to tell the stories into a microphone, because that's what, um, there's just a, a, a, a resonance and warmth that I think can come from audio. Michael Frampton: Do you think that those com the con, let's say I interview my mom and I record it now, she certainly wouldn't be happy with me, , posting that on the podcast, but she might be open to me sharing it with my siblings and maybe a cousin. Is that something that you recommend, like sharing the interview or is it a personal thing? Yeah. Kyle Thiermann: Well, we live in a time where it's easier than ever to record. And these digital fairly air digital family heirlooms can be passed down through the generations. There's never been a time in history where it's as easy to record a piece of media and potentially have a go and exist on for 10,000 years. You know, it's pretty amazing that we could spend an hour and it could be focused purely on your family history. What do you know about my great-grandfather? Um, where did we come from? Just to be the bearer of that, , story and then share that with your family is one way to go about the interview. Just really as a, a product of posterity, , I think it's really important to ask the whoever it is that you're interviewing permission, Hey, can I share this publicly? Can I share it with the family? But if they do, , save those recordings, make sure other people know where those recordings are. . You know, write along with all your passwords to your accounts and just take the time to do it. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit like writing a will, you know, it's something like people don't want to take the time to do, but then when you don't, it can really screw things up. And there's a lot of unknowns that are just left to the rest of the family. , And I don't wanna make it seem that it's sound like it's a, a hard thing to do, or just sad. Like it can be a, a ton of fun to get your parents' stories as well. , But the first thing I recommend doing in the book is just to set the date and the rest will follow. I, my mom, , is really good about this actually. She broke her hip a number of years ago and her left hip and femur. And, and right after she realized that she really did not have her things in order. So she created this something called a gravity pack, which was like passwords to her accounts, her will, uh, music that touched her photographs from her life. . Family history and then also, , these audio recordings will go in there. So it's, she's very organized and, , ha has done this work that is gonna save her kids quite a lot of, uh, pain later on Michael Frampton: and have Kyle Thiermann: Precious, my dad, he's, my dad's more of a, he's more of a flea market junk guy, and we're gonna have a lot to deal with after he dies. But, , you know, bless his heart, we'll do it. Michael Frampton: No, it's, it's a really cool concept, man, and it's, it's such a cool, such a cool idea for a book and obviously you want to inspire other people to do it and give them guidelines on how to do it. You've obviously thought about this a lot, do you have a framework or a method perhaps, or some ideas in which ways , how people can come up with original questions? Kyle Thiermann: Sure. Absolutely. And I really recommend that people take the time to come up with original questions. Every chapter in One last question before you go is a question, say, every chapter title is a question. There's bonus questions at the end, but I also say that the best questions are gonna be original to your parents' lives. They're not gonna be general, you know, what's your favorite band? Or, you know, who, who is your high school crut? Like, it, it should be specific to what made you want to take that trip to Indonesia when you were 19. Tell me about that moment. So,, if you're having a question asking session. I recommend breaking your parents' lives up into four chunks. So this could be childhood, early adult, , late adult, and you know, where they are now. , Just breaking it up into, , you know, 15 year chunks. And then try and write five questions under each of those chunks, right? Get into the details, break it into smaller circles. Um, and if you'd spend 20 minutes breaking your parents' lives into four chunks, asking specifics about what was going on at each of those moments, , you will come up with a bunch of questions. Another thing that I recommend when flexing this muscle is once your parents agree to the interview, get them to send you photographs from their lives, and then you can use those photographs as prompts to get them to tell stories. Ultimately, what you want out of your, your mom or dad is to. Get them to tell stories and stories will come from a photograph. You can literally slide it across the table and say, tell me the story of this photograph. , We often speak in generalities. , And that doesn't do much for, for good audio. What you want are specific stories where they're bringing you into that situation. , So photographs breaking and then breaking your, , parents' lives into four chunks are two great tips. And then the third is, , get them to talk about their decision making process. So, , it's not just what college did you go to? It's like, what made you want to go to that school? What, why, what? And, and you're getting now into their head and they're like, well, you know, I wanted to go here, but I decided to go here 'cause I had this crush on this guy. And boom, all of a sudden you're in a story. . This is what Charles duh Higg the author of, , a number of books like The Power of Habit Super Communicators, called Deep Questions. Don't Just Ask about the Facts of Their Lives. Ask how they feel about their lives. And if you do that, , you will conduct a pretty good interview. , Those are the tips. Michael Frampton: Yeah. You gotta get into the details. Kyle Thiermann: Yes. Bam. Michael Frampton: The ever finer details. . Well, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. The book is called one last question before you Go. Kyle Thiermann: When does it come out? It is out right now. Michael Frampton: It is available on Amazon, I'm assuming? Yes, it is. Awesome. Your website is kyle chairman.com. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, that's probably the best way to find me. And, uh, feel free to reach out if you, uh, if you do end up interviewing your parents, I'd love to hear from any of you listeners out there, how it goes, what you find. I find that, that, you know, writing a book is just the start of a conversation. It's not the end. Yeah. So I wanna, I'm putting this out in the world, but I am very much looking forward to hearing how it's received and what people do with it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, I I'm sure you will hear lots. It's pretty cool. And, uh, Kyle also has a, is it nearly, you've done like over 400 episodes of your podcast? How many now? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that we, I, I am at 400 right now. Wow. Michael Frampton: Yeah. We just did 400. That's, that, that's impressive. So I urge everyone to go and listen to, it's very eclectic. Like there is a lot of surfing stuff in there, but there's also just a lot of life stuff. And, , some really cool interviews, a great podcast to, to cherry pick and dive in. I especially like the one with Derek Sivers. I'm a big fan of Derek Sz, , as well. He's such a unique, well thought out human and, uh, it's a great interview. , Gosh, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. , There will be links to everything, Kyle podcast book stuff in the show notes so you can, you don't have to write this down now, you can go and click, and dive into Kyle's world. Thank you, Kyle. Kyle Thiermann: Thank you Michael. 130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfe - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

129 Lineup Strategy, Surfing Technique and Reading the Ocean with Surf Coach Matt Scorringe

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/756eb6fd-2f00-4d23-a5a1-967397eca048/Matt+Scorringe+Surf+Mastery+Podcast?format=1000w] What if the key to unlocking your best surfing isn’t how you ride a wave - but how you read the ocean before you even paddle for it? Whether you're a seasoned surfer or just stepping up to steeper waves, too many of us overlook the 99% of surfing that happens off the board. In this eye-opening episode, elite surf coach Matt Scorringe shares why ocean knowledge - not tricks or turns - is the hidden edge that separates good surfers from great ones. If you’ve ever felt lost in the lineup, struggled with wave selection, or wondered how top surfers always seem to be in the right spot, this conversation is for you. * Discover the missing piece in most surf coaching: how reading the ocean gives you faster decision-making, greater confidence, and better waves. * Learn how to turn crowded lineups into a game of strategy, not frustration, using Matt’s unique “first line of defense” approach. * Explore how treating the ocean like a playground—not a proving ground - can unlock more joy, progression, and long-term success in your surfing journey. Hit play now to learn how rethinking your approach to wave reading and lineup dynamics can instantly elevate your surfing experience. https://www.theartofsurfing.com [https://www.theartofsurfing.com/] Use Discount Code: "surfmastery25" for 25% discount on Matts Academy and Remote coaching program. Matts Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattyscorringe/?hl=en [https://www.instagram.com/mattyscorringe/?hl=en] Transcript: Michael Frampton: yeah, it is. I actually think that most surf courses miss the mark anyway because 99% of your time when you are surfing is not surfing. You are, you're literally paddling around or sitting there reading the ocean, trying to stay focused on the horizon, trying to decipher you look at this little sliver of ocean. Are you gonna paddle over there to get the wave off the crowd or are you gonna paddle over there? Do you want that wave? What's the wind doing? How many swells are in the water? Like all that stuff that makes you a great surfer. People, people don't focus on it. So I actually, I actually released a course that's all about how to read waves. There's nothing Yeah. To do with basically what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet. Yeah. Because once you're on to your feet, that's been done to death. And yeah. I wanna segue that into what, in terms of like reading the ocean and reading water, , do you coach people on some of your elites on that sort of stuff? Do you spend much time on it? What are your thoughts? Matt Scorringe : Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with regards to like more high performance athletes that I train, you know, there's a clear, difference between those that have, that really do and those that don't. So again, once on feet, both equally fantastic surfers, but one just has a higher level of ocean knowledge and understanding and, and able to read and, you know, you run. Drill after drill on scenario after scenario and pressure situation after pressure situation and all of that ocean knowledge just, um, you know, means obviously they're gonna read the ocean better, but their confidence is higher and their decision making processes are faster because of the nuances that they're picking up and processing and, and making decisions on to get those waves that go underneath for that wave that didn't look like maybe an opportunity to the other surfer. Uh, and then if you drop it down to like more of my everyday clientele, uh, and a lot of my online clientele with, you know, the, the academy membership or my remote coaching, um, a massive part of what I try and get them to do is actually film more of them. With, uh, a camera that's like not on wave, just them roaming the ocean and, and looking to catch waves. So, you know, zoom it out, push record and let it sit there and have your GPS tracker. And it's amazing what learnings come from that, that you can just pick up, um, that you wouldn't otherwise. And yeah, it's a huge, huge pillar that is really overlooked in most coaching scenarios. Uh, and if you've got someone on a one on one lesson for an hour and a half, like there's only so much you can do in that time, right? Like, hey, this is the day's conditions, this is where the rip is, this is the kind of, you know, the period. And, um, this is kind of where the bank is. , And you can assess what you, you might want to in that moment, but really you're getting such a small snapshot of the, their, their decision making and their, their ocean knowledge. , So I, I really enjoy having more of a longer. Time with my remote coaching clientele to actually assess that, give them, you know, training drills and strategies and games. I, I call them games to play, and then they can go out and start to do their own assessments of those outcomes. And that's really my ultimate goal is to teach self-assessment. , And to play with different, different, uh, strategies in the ocean to, to learn, you know, I mean, when we're kids, we learn about the ocean through play. Like we're jumping in the shore break, we're swimming in the rip, we're, you know, boogie boarding along closeouts with the boys and you know, that's where you understand all of those, those things that the ocean, uh, teach you. Michael Frampton: , Yeah. Most great surfers had that childhood early on where they, yeah, there was no pressure to even stand up on a surfboard. It's just, just messing around in the ocean. Yeah, makes me think of Wingnut. I interviewed Wingnut a few years ago and he didn't start surfing till he was 17, and I thought that that's such a unique case. Someone's starting surfing so late and becoming so good at it. That didn't make sense to me. I almost didn't believe him. But then he told me he had been body surfing since he was five, and I was like, ah, of course. Yeah, you've got already got the wave, the wave knowledge, the, the way you read water is already there. That's, that's your fundamental school. You're comfortable in the ocean. 'cause surfing, when you think about it, one, once you're on your feet, it's not actually that hard. I mean, look at, look at someone like OIE who barely even, and John, John too. They barely move their bodies at all, right? Yeah, yeah. Kelly's unique. He moves his body all over the place. But someone like AKI is just that, that those subtle movements of changes of balance and direction and it's amazing how you technically, you could be really stiff and inflexible. And not move that much and still be a great surfer, but only if you can stand, get to your feet in the right part of the wave on a good wave with, and then have good timing. And it all essentially comes from reading, reading the ocean and being comfortable in the ocean. Matt Scorringe : Yeah, no, I, I, I agree. I mean, really when you distill, uh, technical surfing on a wave, and sometimes, you know, I, with the, the profession I'm in and other coaches you are sort of, do people not see how simple this technical piece is that they're missing? Right. And obviously we have trained eyes, so, , I say that respectfully or lightly, that you're like, it's amazing. People still will look at their own footage and not identify, Hey, your back arm is, you know, really low when you swing through your twist. So if we can get that higher, it's gonna open up your chest rotation. So there's those things technically. , But they're so much more easier and obvious to really see for anyone. And once you teach them that they can see it themselves and they see it in other surfers., But the ocean is, it's, you know, easy to say to an adult or a late starting client, you need to have had all this experience as a kid, right? And you haven't, so it's gonna be hard. And, and that's, that's really demotivating for them. So, you know, I try to change it around to, uh, you have to pretend you're a kid again. You have to treat the ocean like a playground, and you need to be, you know, very wasteful and okay with falling and failure in the process of learning how the ocean moves, uh, obviously within a realm of safety and don't sort of paddle out to, um, you know, a, a big reef break and sort of just muck around if it's, it's beyond your sort of capabilities, but at your local, at, at your, your local beach break or just learning an environment. , It's all about, yeah, in my opinion, having. Like, I've got these strategies I use to teach them how to, you know, understand crowd movement too, and manage, , you know, a, a way to kind of work around that and option A, B, C, D, but also just treat it like a game. So if option a's not working, learn from it, move to B and so on, and be wasteful of that session when it's crowded. Like, okay, it's crowded anyway, so if I get a couple, that's gonna be a great day. So I might as well have a little trial and error of this strategy. Uh, let's see if this works. I mean, I do it myself all the time, like when I travel and I, I surf as a point a lot or padang when I'm in Bali. , You know, I'm literally going through my strategies and trying, and some days strategy A will just work straight away and I'm, I'm on and I think, oh, how good's this? Like, you know, I found a little little gap in the, in the, the chaos out here. And then other days, you know, I get to strategy C or D before I'm like, wow, that's. That those other ones really aren't working today. Like there's five or 6, 7, 8, 10, 15 other people playing the same game as me right now. I need, I need to, I need to shift, you know, and I need to try something different. And sometimes none of them work too, but you know, you, you gotta almost smile and have fun with it in those moments. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's great advice for anyone starting surfing is just play. Just don't put pressure on yourself to perform at all. It's really important. But you also mentioned crowd stuff, which segues into something else I wanted to discuss, which is etiquette. Any of those strategies you mentioned,, consider etiquette. What are your thoughts on etiquette? , Have you seen any of the recent, um, social media stuff? I mean, get stabbed at an article recently about kooks and Barley and Surfline did a little thing about being closest to the peak and there's been a, a few Instagram, , influences, you know, chatting about it. And I interviewed Holly Beck about it, , a couple of weeks ago as well. So what are your thoughts on et. Matt Scorringe : Well, I mean, at the core of etiquette, that comes down to, , surfing with respect for others. Right? And, and so my thoughts on etiquette is it needs, there needs to be etiquette. , What are the rules? And, and, and, you know, what, what dictates the right way to do it. , I know it's gonna start with an answer that sounds like top level, , but it is so dependent on situation, , the wave type, the level of the surface. So a lot of the strategies I teach clients, , start with clearly assessment, you know, tools to assess what a pack is doing. , One of the, one of the more effective ones is I what I call identifying the first line of defense. So I kind of have these sort of analogies that tie into war because when you go out there sometimes it's like you're going into a fight or into war. , And so who are those sort of soldiers, that first line of defense that they're trying to lock down? The, the peak or the, you know, the, the, the main takeoff spot and how many of them are there, are they working in synergy, you know, like a local spot where they're like clearly clustering together to, to kind of, , surround that, that, that best spot? Or is it a spot like, , you know, being in, or again, maybe deserts where, you know, there's just a lot of people trying their own individual plan in that moment. And so, you know, allowing these first line of defense people to have that kind of, authority that they want to have out there. , But playing underneath them and, and almost using that against them, , is something that, you know, you can do. And I know it's kind of hard to articulate just over a conversation, but when you have modules and you're sort of showing examples, , I know myself, I use. At Padang a lot just sitting, you know, slightly under all those sort of main, main key guys. Now clearly if there's another 30 guys, like maybe with the same idea, then that secondary peak gets, gets packed. But, , there's these ways in which you can, you can again try option A, option B, um, but often, you know, just being underneath and, and allowing those other surfers to have that, that, , pecking order that they're trying to, they're trying to have, , you can, you can slot in underneath and, and still get great double ups or, you know, get one that's missed. Or identifying that this guy's a local, that's an older guy that gets a lot of respect and lots of people are gonna pull back, but he's not got a good paddle. I've had so many waves just. Double checking those guys. And you know, they just don't quite get it when like, sometimes it does, it's like 30 guys have pulled back 'cause they're like, oh, it's, it's such and such, you know, we don't wanna push his section down, but you are just over enough that you are not gonna do that. And you might be able to squeak in when 30 guys pull back and he just takes off too late or doesn't quite make the drop., So yeah, identifying those, those little gaps is key. , Back to etiquette though, with that personally, , I'm non-confrontational in my approach to surfing. Like, I've never enjoyed an argument. I've never enjoyed trying to, , paddle up to someone and educate them on the environment unless they're being dangerous. , The worst environments I've found myself in my life have been of recent w with my own sons teaching them to surf. Uh, so being out in lineups like. Ulus when it's only two to three foot high tide and you just have all these uneducated surfers. Uh, and I don't wanna put a label on level, I'm just uneducated on, on movement and just priority and, you know, just fairness, like, and safety, just, uh, you know, and so you're, you're literally out there with your son. And I've been in the most confrontational arguments of recent, purely when I feel obligated to try and tune someone about how dangerous they're being when not just my kids, but other kids are out in the lineup and, you know, they don't have the, the physical capability or skillset. , Or knowledge yet to make the right decision. , They're learning, they're trying to get out the way, but maybe they're just not gonna be able to. And yeah, just seeing so much, um, carnage, clearly, uh, it's been really a, a, a challenging journey at times because, you know, you don't see all of that kind of stuff when you surf better breaks with higher level surfers. , It, it's really gone to the dogs and I, you know, I grew up in that environment once upon a time, but it's so much worse now than it was in were kids. I feel for any learner, adult, you know, female long boarder trying to get amongst that and, and cash their wave, you know, it's just, uh, it's, it's a really toxic environment now. Those sorts of mainstream breaks,, you know, you can go through a list of Malibu and snappers and, you know, all around the world, right? It's, it's just so many surfers now. So, , yeah. It's, it's, it's a, it's an open-ended question. Well, Michael Frampton: I think it's on them. Let's use Ulus as an example. It's, it's a high performance wave that gets really good, but it's also somewhat accessible and that's its downfall. Whereas you can, you can get away with, as long as you're physically able to walk down the stairs and you have the, uh, sometimes it's just pure ignorance to negotiate the keyhole. I've seen some close calls that I just, I just dumbfounded. I remember the first time I surfed Ulus when it was, you know, solid five foot and I was just, I couldn't believe how. Novice of a surfer had managed to get out there and get in the way of everyone. And I was on edge going, I do not wanna touch the reef. I don't want get in anyone's way. And I'm like, my heart was racing. And there's, there's people out there, there's people whistling in the, that they've caught the, they've gone too far, they're getting dragged around onto the inside. There's people on the cliff whistling at them. There's people walking up the stairs covered in blood 'cause they've hit the reef. And it's just like, why, why would you go to Atu? Like you, you're an idiot. You should be at a beach break with other learners and learning that. So I think it's a almost a failing some ways in surf culture not to educate these people. And I get it, you know, your barley tourism is, they want the the people to go there. But at the same time it's like, man, my kid's been surfing for, for five years. He's ready to. Approach somewhere like inside Ulus. But you, you're in the way. You're literally, they, they are the unethical ones with no etiquette. Yeah. Because they're in the wrong place. And the same thing, you've got surf coaches pushing everyone into Malibu. First point when you know the good surfers that have waited for an hour, they wanna do a couple of cutbacks on the inside. They want, don't want to give way to a soft top. You should be at zoomer learning. So I think a lot of these, a lot of the stuff. It's coming from these adult learners who just think they're entitled and they don't have to go through the, the process in surfing. It's like, oh no, it's my turn. I've been waiting for a wave. Well, it's not, it's not quite that simple. And I think it comes back to what you said, which is, it's, it's a safety issue really. You've got so many, yeah, so many amateur surfers getting in people's way. People have to not hit you and then they put themselves in a bad position to get cut on a reef maybe, or essentially you, you're gonna end up hurting yourself or you're a drain on the, on the health system. And it, it's, yeah, it's kind of a mess. Matt Scorringe : I think it's just, you know, that ignorance is bliss for a lot of them, right? They just don't know what they don't know. And so making their way out at ulu's on high tide and not realizing the tide's on the way out, and they're gonna have reef to deal with on the way in, and, you know, they find themselves in these situations, but, , they're unaware and so. There's, there's not any fear around it for them at that point. And they, they get out there and they're just all of a sudden in the way, and it has it, and you, you multiply that by 30 or 50 of those people in, in a situation and, and you've got a lot of, , yeah, you've got a lot of potential, you know, trouble that could present itself. And, and carnage, I mean, and every, any given day, a lot of these spots, there's, there's a lot of, you know, incidences where people are getting hurt and hurt and cut and, um, some, you know, the amount of close calls, you know, would be, would be crazy. , I, I find that it's, you know, without labeling. The countries, there's certainly more high educated countries based on the environment that you grow up in. Even if you're a late adult starter in a country like Australia that has just a super high surfing iq, uh, and knowledge, you're gonna get tuned really quickly. You're gonna be taught, you know, in in, in either a good way or a bad way, but you're gonna learn a little bit of the understanding of the, the way that, you know, etiquette and, and the world works. And each break is different and each coastline and so on. But you're gonna have this kind of collectively base level, general theme through most of Australia where yeah, they, they're switched on. And I mean, the amount of unbelievable ocean knowledge wave readers that I've come to meet from Australia, you know, particularly like Hawaii for sure too, that goes without saying with their. Of course, you know, the, the, the larger swell and the big waves and what they're exposed to, but I'm talking nuances and just, and crappy wound bond slop as well. You know, those eyes that they have for all of that and the gaps in crowds because they grow up in it and then they can do it in a way that, like cheeky maybe, but not completely disrespectful. , And you know, obviously if you're out snapper, there's everything under the sun in terms of how people are doing it, but the best at doing it become, it becomes an art form of how they operate within a crowd with everyone from learner groms to learner adults, right through to elite, right? And everything in between. So, , personally like I, I grew up on a, a very highly, um, localized break in New Zealand. Now, when I say localized, it wasn't. By fist. It was localized. It was by village. And so the takeoff zone was very tight. It's, uh, you know, like a, a long, uh, left hand sandbar for anyone listening. , And I know most of the best surfers in New Zealand just don't go surf it and still don't. , And when they'll come through town and be like, come surf the bar, you know, and they'll be like, oh, we're just gonna go around to the beachy, like hate surfing out there. And. It was more because of the way it got locked down by the elders rather than, you know, um, a pack of younger tough guys sort of dominating it through force. And so I learned really quick this kind of hierarchy system of respect and, and doing your due, like you had to pay your dues. You had to start down the point, you worked your way up and you know, you had to sit under your outs and you could pick up the double ups. But back then they were all riding like longer boards and weren't knifing double ups into the barrel. So we grew up as that first generation wanting those waves and we actually were getting the better waves, but they were getting the taller ways that would kind of hit the bank and run. We were getting the like double up aka like tubes and they didn't realize we were on the better ones 'cause it was a generational change of equipment and so on. But what we learned was, um, yeah, how to, how to work within that environment. How to work your way up. Um. A hundred percent I've, I paddle would've paddled past a lot of people in my time sitting down the point and, you know, that's on my mind. But when I get to the top, I'm not just trying to get the next wave and the next wave and the next wave. It's like working your way in and waiting your turn. And um, you know, there's days we're all guilty as sins that it's good and, and you get a bit in rhythm and greedy and, and you know, you're kind of aware of you, you, you've, you're getting a few too many. But like at the end of the day, uh, there is a like real clear understanding out there. And I know a lot of people don't like that, that aren't from there, but what I think they don't like about it is there's not actually anyone kind of telling anyone to, you know, if off or to like get down to point or like just being like, you know, obviously aggressive assholes. I mean, it can happen, can happen. But most of the time, and what's more frustrating is just this kind of like, yeah, there, there's this kind of collective creating,. An environment that has to be respected. And so what I kind of gleaned from that with my travels was identifying that in other locations and knowing when like, oh, there's a clear and obvious like village of people here that have got a system. And identifying that and trying to fit into that system. And , I know a lot of your guests have said like, being a good surfer helps like that, that goes without saying. Like, if you can get into the peak eventually and, and get a good wave and you knife it and you get spat out down the line and you do a good turn, , it helps, like, it helps people give you respect. If you go over the falls three times, you're done right one time, you're probably done. So unfortunately, for those that are listening that are, , maybe not at a, a higher level and they're at a lower level, like you have to really look yourself in the mirror and, and be honest with yourself whether you can surf that way from the top. And if you've got the skill set to do so and. I'm not saying that doesn't mean you shouldn't go have the right as a human being to go up there and try, but if you don't make it once or twice like you will, you will be done. You know? And that's, I think, fair enough in any sport. Like you only get so many shots at something before, okay. You know, , you're not, you're not achieving this ultimate goal here of, you know, scoring the goal for, for a basketball team. Like, we're gonna sub you off, you know? And so there is just an understanding of where you might fit into that system. . And just to kind of wrap up my point, I also go to breaks where I can see there is no obvious system and it is a free for all and there is no hierarchy, you know, sort of village kind of operation going on here. And then it's like, okay, cool, like now we can kind of play a little bit more, , you know, hungrier game here, but still like, where can I slot in and not be an absolute prick? , But you know what, I'm not going to just keep leading these guys pedal past me either. Like I'm gonna play the game. Um, and so, I dunno, I feel like, you know, a lot of my friends that grew up on this wave, we've, we developed an art to particularly a couple of my mates. They're just so good at getting waves in any lineup, like the most crowded lineups that. Are the exception of a wave like chop or pipeline or, you know, super heavy waves of constant with a clear and obvious gnarly local system. , But all the free for all waves around the world, you know, that just have been kind of overrun by tourism and yeah. And then I see other really good surfers from different environments have grown up that really struggle 'cause they just had like a more simple, less complex environment to, Michael Frampton: to learn that in. Mm. Yeah. It's a big subject. And that will come, I mean, what you just mentioned there, that comes down to reading, like, like you sitting in a little bit from the pack to catch the double up, the double ups at Padang, you can only do that because if you see a set coming for them, you're gonna have to see it either before them or at the same time as them in order to paddle outta their way. Right. Mm. In order to order to go back to get the double ups on the inside. They don't, and they don't care if you're getting those waves as long as you stay out of their way, but you get in their way, your little game is over. So you have to be an expert at reading and predicting waves in order to do that. Therefore, you are a better surfer. So you are moving, I think surf lineups, it is a hierarchy of competence. There is no way around that. There's, I agree. Each surf break has its own, uh, representation of eth uh, of, um, etiquette, let's say at different times of the day, different swells. And when we are entering the water, we cannot, as surfers, we cannot expect there to be one rule of etiquette for every surf break in the world. It's ridiculous. Yeah. If you, if you go surfing and you feel like everyone else in the water has no etiquette, you are the one in the wrong place. You are out. Go, go surf somewhere else. Go and practice what you're doing somewhere else. Jump on a plane. There are plenty of learner friendly areas in the world now where you can go and take turns and be on soft tops and catch gentle waves. There's, there's plenty of places to go and learn and practice and, and get your reps in and surfing and that way I think it's ridiculous to go out to ATU and expect to people to be, to have etiquette and, and, and to give you your turn. It's, it is, it is crazy. So it comes back to that whole awareness thing, right? Not only are you good surfers, not only if you wanna travel, especially, not only do you have to be good at reading the ocean and waves and stuff, you have to be good at reading the crowd and the surf culture of the local environ. A hundred percent. I Matt Scorringe : think that's a huge piece. Yeah. And just to kind of elaborate on, just as an example, Pang, because I mean, pang's such a perfect wave. I mean, there's a lot of people that might be listening and think, oh, well that's a very. Common plan B. , I mean, I've had sessions out there. I've sat out there for two hours and had to paddle in and not caught away, you know, so I'm not saying it always works. And I've had sessions where it's, um, being only a handful of locals and maybe a couple of them I know well, and they're like, oh, go this one man, you know, and you, you're up, you, you, you go, you go. And then I've had times where they've literally paddled past me 15 times and not looked you in the eye. 'cause they don't want to acknowledge you and then have to maybe think about giving you a wave when it's really busy. They're like, right, it's busy, it's pumping panang, I'm locking in with the rest of the local boys. It's our turn. And you just gotta sit back and respect that. You know, like it's, it's the way it is. Like their waves have been overrun by tourists and it's, it's one of those pumping days and there's. There's 30 guys like me with the same level and, and idea, and then there's 30 guys underneath me or girls with a, a different idea and a different level. And, and there's all that, you know, and so you've got to, yeah, you've gotta just kind of understand that. Um, and I know I do it, like I, I know when I surf sun breaks that I know it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be a real game that I'm playing the whole session. I actually don't like going surfing with friends out there. You know, I like to just strike a couple of waves around Bali. , Sorry, Indo now on my own. Because if I go with even just two mates, you know, I'm not gonna go with a huge pack. I have to consider them in my game of respect. Like if I do my thing and I know they haven't had one for a while. Like my nature is to be like, of course I'm gonna be like, go, go, go. You know, I'm not, , you know, I can't kind of, at the end of the day be that kind of dog eat dog, but then that mucks you up and they're kind of like, there's three guys between you and them and you've kind, you kind of like, it becomes this thing where like it's actually a solo pursuit is easier in an environment that it's not your environment like you are, you're in someone else's environment or one of those free for all waves and like there are waves around, , the world that has no. Massive true. Like it's, let's say local village law, but there's certainly the couple of locals, handful locals. Um, there's certainly those that have traveled there since 1970 something and camp there all the time. So there's still some system, you know, even though there's maybe no true locals or there's no true, you're an expat, you, how can you call yourself a local? Well, you know, that person has surfed there for 30 years and knows everyone by name has done this time, like respect due. You know? So I like to find out about those stories and get to know people and, and see where people slot in to, , a break if I have enough time. Sometimes you're just passing through for a surf and you've got one surf and you've just gotta try and make sense of it a a little faster. , But yeah, I think too many people just don't spend enough time trying to understand what the environment they're really operating in and just get caught up in the pure like. You are paddling past me. It's my turn. I'm deepest to the peak. All these kind of top level rules of surfing that don't apply at every break, specifically based on the hierarchy of level as well. Yeah, Michael Frampton: yeah, I totally agree. I think they do, they obviously do apply when you think, when you see surfing as a sport and in competition there's priority rules and stuff. But which segue into is surfing an art or a sport. I think if you approach it as more of an art, it gives you a lot more leeway. You should of break the rules of sport and there's more nuance to, to read the ocean and, and surf breaks as more and like, like you said before is I want you're mentioning uh, some of your friends that catch waves. They're so good at it. It's like an art form. Um, and I know we did touch on this question way back in, uh, episode five back in 2015, uh, 'cause of the name of your website and businesses, the Art of Surfing. But I'm gonna. Come back to you. I've been talk, been talking about this question a bit with recently, again, sort of revisiting it. So I'm gonna ask you again. Is surfing an art or a sport? Mm-hmm. Matt Scorringe : Well, for me it's 100% an art. Like that goes without saying. I mean, the whole reason I did name the business the art of surfing because was because that, that's, you know, just at the core of it, it's an art form and it's an art form that has been turned into a sport for those that want to play it in a sport format. That's how I see it. And so, you know, we're, we're, we're grabbing something and we're going, this art form's beautiful. You know, like, what a cool thing. Like look how he does it. Look how she does it, look how different she's doing it to him. , But look, why don't we. Create some parameters here and see if we can create some sort of sport. Right. And you know, it, it's evolved and we all love the sport. Like, you know, groms love to compete. I've loved to compete. I love to watch competition. I love to follow the WSL. I love the idea of having a world champion. I, you know, we, we, we want to create some form of sport within it that we can all be proud to be a part of and follow. , But at the core of what you're doing, it's art. At the core of riding a wave, there's no more pure art form. And I have a little bit of a tagline with my business and it's, it's basically like the symbols, you know, art and science. And so my coaching philosophy is to blend the art and the science together and deliver it to my clients in a digestible way that they can understand it and they can, they can put it into practice. Because if you are. Not a court, uh, a, you know, born surfer in the ocean and you have, you know, natural ocean knowledge and you grew up on your boogie board and your surfboard, and you've just got this feel for the ocean. If you're, if you're foreign to the environment, it can, it can look like reading Chinese when you're English, right? It's, it's such a different science that your mind starts to melt. Like this mathematical equation is just like, I can't get it. But if you break this huge equation down into bite-size pieces and go, well, if we start here and just here is really one plus three, so what's that equal? Okay, cool. So you get that. Now we're gonna go up into this level. You can really start to take them on that journey of understanding the art and the science of it. , And you're almost, what I like to say to a lot of clients is when you do that, you are maybe focusing on the science bits a bit like this technique and this kind of like strategy. But what you're teaching them on a bigger scale is the art form. And when they kind of zoom out, you've kind of like the same paint by numbers. You sort of got them painting the ones and then the twos, and then the threes, and then they kind of zoom out once they're up to the tens and they're like, whoa, look at this. Look at this picture of 'em drawing. You know, it's, this is cool. Like, I didn't even realize I was putting this piece of art together. And you show them a clip, you know, one day that kind of shows them that like, Hey, look, you've just positioned yourself so well here. You've, you've turned, you've cooked, your pop-up was smooth. Youve got speed off the mark, you've flowed to your marker, you know, you compressed, you leaned that bottom turn your extension and your timing was great. You threw your arms and your framework really, really well. And you got your kicking your pedal into that snap. Like you just combined all of that into this one moment. You know, and for many surfers, that's, that's not that easy, you know? . At all. And you know, when you get caught up in coaching a lot of talented kids and juniors, you forget. You forget that side of the sport. And, , well, that side of the art Yeah, because it's so easy to say sport, right? It rolls off your tongue. But, , I think those clients I'm teaching in art and my more high performance kids, I'm teaching the sport, I'm teaching strategy and drills and pressure, you know, scenarios, mindset, confidence, you know, that's all sporting language, right. That you can, you can transition between any sport. , Yeah. Whereas I think our art form of surfing is a different, , killer fish when you talk to how to coach it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah. The, the breaking it down, breaking the art of surfing into a science, like paint by numbers into little mm. Into little blocks. And is that what you're specializing in doing with your remote coaching? You tell us about that. Matt Scorringe : Yeah, absolutely. The, the remote coaching,, I, I guess I was thinking like, how can I be more impactful on a longer term, , journey for my clients, right? Rather than coming on a camp or a course or, or a few in-person sessions here or there. Like, how can I actually do what I just explained, like kind of create this program for them that will step them through painting, painting the numbers, and then being able to zoom out in six months time, a year's time and, and be like, you know, way ahead of their surfing curve than they ever thought. And so, you know, with the evolution of technology, , I decided to launch my remote coaching packages. So with that on a simple top, you know, level, they submit footage to me regularly. I do their assessments, I put together their training programs. I like to compare it a little bit. For those that are listening to a simple, you know, remote, um, PT trainer, because it seems to kind of just connect, like, oh, I could see how that could work then where you are training in a different gym, but you're checking in with your trainer over the other side of the country or other side of the world. You're sending them videos, highlighting your, your reps, your routines, they're micro, um, managing that. They're, you know, adjusting those, those reps, those weights. , And you don't really see it until you see it. And a year later, six months later, you are, you're a lot stronger, you're a lot further, you're a lot more mobile because of the work and the personalization they're putting into your program. And you can't do that without assessment. You can't just create a one stop course for everyone. Like that just does not work. And I just don't believe in that stuff. Um, do they help understand the base layer of knowledge? Absolutely. But they're never gonna actually truly get you from where you are to where you want to be. And so I really moved away. From one-off remote, like, you know, video analysis, , purchases. I only work with people a minimum of three months and most people sign up for my six month or a year just to, you know, see those results. Or they might do three and then they just, they just stay. , So yeah, that's how that works. And it is designed purely around that whole combination of the art and the science, and then being able to zoom out and actually see true results, , whether you are a performance junior surfer, wanting to go from like, I'm a good surfer, but I want to be progressive and I want to be dynamic and I need to, I need to lift my score lines. We, we can take you on that journey. We're gonna go more into the competition sports side there, , or your. A 40-year-old woman that's living in El Salvador who I, you know, as a real example of someone I coach and she's started, decided to ride a shortboard after a longboard her whole life. , And we've got her doing snaps in the pocket and, you know, she had a good base layer, but she never knew how to turn properly. And yeah, it's been a fun journey, , I really enjoy my, my remote coaching. And the best thing about it is the accountability. People have to submit footage and so they go away and they work really hard because they know they have to send map footage and they wanna, they wanna show results. And so just like if you're gonna send a photo to your, um, PT three months later, you don't wanna send the one of you looking less fit than when you started with 'em or her. So it's kinda thinking. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, that's a good analogy too. 'cause when it comes to training in the gym and or changing your diet or whatever, you need consistency over at least three months to see any sort of change and Absolutely. It's the same with surfing as you're surfing, even more so, I mean, gosh, you could be, you could almost become an expert in the gym in two or three years. It's gonna take you more like, , 22 or 23 years in surfing. It's, you gotta have the long, the long game when it comes to surfing, unless you're 10 years old and you're starting now made a rubber. Yeah. Okay, cool. So how can people learn more about, uh, more about your remote coaching? Matt Scorringe : Yeah. Um, best place to find me would be on Instagram, the Art of Surfing and the art of surfing.com. So yeah, if you head there, there's , a good page about the remote coaching. There's a page about our online academy membership, which is more of a entry level too. , The remote coaching where there's more tutorials and um, video content, but also with the year membership, people get a Teos annual review and that is one version of the programming I do. And then they get to get a taster and if they, you know, want to, you know, be more committed to their, their surfing than progression, they can up, up, up, um, grade to the remote coaching package as well. Michael Frampton: Okay, awesome. So that's the art of surfing.co nz. There will be links to that in the show notes, and if you're on Instagram, it's the same, same handle. And also, so let me ask you, it's for people listening in, uh, America and Europe, it's coming into winter season, so there will be intermediate surfers listening that will be tempted to maybe step outside their comfort zone and surf some slightly bigger waves. , Do you have any tips for those, those people entering this season over there? Matt Scorringe : My, my main tip for winter surfing in general is, so when you look at your mindset to performance, regardless of your level, there's certain pillars that you want to strengthen and lean into and spend time in. One of those pillars is form and like focusing on correct form, but with, , a more sort of slower pace to it. So we, we otherwise call that focusing on rhythm, right? Like when we build rhythm and we try and build flow, , that can look really beautifully and done with minimal effort, minimal, like major range of movements in our, in our body. So think of John. John, like, or Occy, like you're saying. So winter you're generally. Want to maybe look at writing a slightly high volume board. , You might want to play around if you're an intermediate level surfer with, you know, those mid lengths that you might have started to also explore with, and you're gonna be wearing lots more rubber. So I move my clients away from the fast twitch, , dynamic focus, , kind of coaching focuses that we might have in warmer water or in summer months, and more on the range of movement, but done not at a rushed pace. So to say that was something tangible to work on. It might be working on like, rather than off the mark speed and, and pump, pump, pump actually working on your timing of your first bottom turn and just being deep with your glide. And so less effort on the, the speed to get to that moment. But when you are there. You know, compress and lean and see how low you can get, how much you can touch, and then really extend up as you draw up the wave towards that top turn and isolate that. Just be okay with that being what you are working on and less worried about the overall outcome of this wave being three or four to the beach or putting together this perfect ride because we move slower in the colder water, you know, we're stiffer, the boards are, you know, the wits make you heavier. So bit of volume, bit of flow, bit of focus on some isolated, um, range of movement in some areas. And you know, obviously if you've got a coach you're working with that can tell you what those areas are. Great. But just from a generalized point of view, that's a theme I, uh, I kind of lean into with my clients that are in their winter months because you're also not usually catching as much waves in those winter months. Just typically not surfing as much. Your reps are down your wave count, you know, your ride time. So rather than trying to, you know. Be all over the show with it. Just simplify, build some flow. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Range of movement. Yeah. That's actually good advice for all levels of surfers. 'cause if you're in summer mode and you enter that summer frantic way of surfing into a powerful wave, you're gonna, it doesn't, doesn't really work. Does it? Yeah, totally. The irony is for those who haven't really stepped into winter waves, the intermediate surfers, when the bigger the wave is, the more time you actually have. Now it's scarier. So sometimes it feels like you have less time, but if you're comfortable in the ocean on bigger waves, you, you going a bit faster, but you actually have more time. 'cause it takes longer to drop down. So you need more control and less, less, less fast twitch. Um, and then of course you've got, we've got the Southern Hemisphere listeners and we're coming into summer. Any advice for those coming into summer? Matt Scorringe : Yeah, look at the moment I've, I've really enjoyed with my remote coaching working on my client's framework and the entry phase. So what that means is when you are entering your top turn, I call that the, the, the entry phase. So basically your bottom turn and your approach. Um, you have your action phase, which is whatever maneuver you're trying to do off the top. And then you have your exit phase when you're sort of like obviously trying to complete it and ride out. And so with summer, and then we can just zoom out and say surfing in general, like you're gonna usually get your reps up in the summer, you're gonna be hopefully surfing in boardies and, and light of we ease and you're gonna be more quick kind of with those reaction times. So you start to get erratic and if your movements are incorrect and erratic, you double down on negative results with your surfing right? And you're actually creating more bad habits, uh, and you start to sometimes get worse. And you're surfing more, but you're getting worse. And so the frustration comes in. So what I like to get people really focusing on as they kind of make that transition is the framework, particularly of their arms. So again, like how to do that is something that you'd have to, you know, be coached by me to do or someone that you work with. But getting your arm set, getting your, your, your extension, your framework of the arm set so that when you are doing your movement patterns, you're in the action phase, you're coming from a, a, a good foundation. So, um, a good analogy is golf. Like, think about walking up to hit a ball. , And you don't really address the ball very well. You just sort of like, get up there, set your feet, look, look down at the pen and just swung away. Most of the time for an everyday golfer that that swing's gonna be pretty bad and the ball's gonna not go where you want it to go, and you might get a few that go kind of good and, and, and the majority of that won't. I know that's certainly how it is for me. Um, and the difference is if you were to go up, you address ball properly, you go through your routine, you get your framework set, you kind of have your, your, your markers that your coach has given you that you gotta make sure of, and then you breathe into that moment and, and you go, go for the swing. You're, you're generally gonna find that you have a much better consistent swing. So the beauty of golf is you can take your time and you can address that as long as you need. With surfing, you don't have that luxury. You're gonna be coming off your bottom turn and boom, you're at the top. So to implement the right framework is much harder, therefore more important. And yeah, okay. It might be trickier to actually do, but if you can get your arm set and you can get a high back arm and you can activate your leading arm so that you have the arms ready for leverage and rotation or twist or throw, , you're generally gonna just throw, twist or rotate in a much better form, and therefore your surfing will be better, less erratic, and you know, you won't have that frustration that follows. So yeah, what does that look like? Well, you know, that's something that you, you need to get some tips on if you're, if you're not sure. But ultimately, , just think getting your arm set to be utilized. A lot of people just don't lift them. They're just underneath their arm, their, , shoulder height through all their surfing. , There's no over. The shoulder throw, it's all under the shoulder throw. So I think, , a lot of backstroke swings rather than freestyle swings. Mm. So what does that do? When you go into a Rio or snap and you're doing a backstroke swing, you are actually pulling your whole body momentum back over your heels to sit back down. And a lot of surfers do that with their finishing turns or top turns. Uh, if you can get that over shoulder throw, freestyle throw, uh, you're going to project a forward momentum, uh, a forward cycle and circle that pulls you over your toes, helps you rotate and twist out towards the beach through the turn. Um, so those little things make a huge knock on effect. Um. You know, and, and you're surfing and summer is a good time to, to get that right because, you know, you're, you're generally just gonna be, hopefully surfing a lot more, more reps, more moments. Yeah. And, and maybe a little bit more lively with your approach. Michael Frampton: Mm, yeah. That's a, that's a nice detailed tip there. Yeah. I think a lot of, even a lot of surf coaches would miss that, the difference in an arm swing. 'cause the reverse under the, under the shoulder, that's a react. That's a fear thing. That's a pullback. It's my god. Yeah. It's reactive, fear based. Yeah. And you can over, you can override that and actually correct the fear at the same time, or you can correct the fear and sometimes the movement is corrected. And of course, if you've got a good coach, you're doing both. So, um, those that we'll find out more about next. Well, you know, Matt Scorringe : con confidence is. Confidence is not a feeling. It's the result of actions, right? You get confident based on the result of repetitive actions you've done that make you not fear that moment, fear that situation, fear that movement. So the action phase creates confidence and you nailed it. Like I use reactive versus proactive surfing as a 1 0 1 explanation for my clients. Like, here's proactive surfing from you. And then as you transition here, this is all reactive. So we'll go back to your last proactive moment, okay? That's where we now look to implement the, the next phase in a proactive manner. So they may have a good takeoff, they may have a good bottom turn, but from their approach into their action phase, it's all reactive. Well, that, that's where you've gotta start. You can't, you can't talk about their finishing phase yet. Like they've gotta get this right before. You know, paint by numbers though. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yes. Step by step. Well, those who are listening, who are inspired to find out more, go to the art of surfing.co nz. And, uh, if you're really serious about changing a surfing, you gotta, you gotta have some commitment. It's gonna take minimum three months of consistent action. And, uh, I can tell you from experience, I've been through a phase of my life where I spend a lot of time, effort, and money on improving my surfing. And I certainly do not regret it because. It's not something you have to do for years and years and years. Even if you only did one year of that, you've changed the way you surf forever. , It's, it's amazing what I blew my own mind of what I achieved within a year. Uh, I, you know, achieved my goals, you know, way earlier and, and far beyond what I thought was possible and when I focused on my surfing. So I encourage those out there just to just get it done, get some coaching done. It's painful, watching yourself surf, et cetera, but it's the only way forward. Mm-hmm. And Matt's one of the best in the business. So thank you for tuning in. Uh, you can also go back to episode five and episode 79, I think it was. I'll put links to that, the other two interviews with Matt in the show notes if you want to hear more from Matt's philosophy and of course his backstory in the original, uh, episode. So Matt, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Matt Scorringe : Cheers, Mike. Likewise, stoked to be back on the pod. And, . Thanks everyone for listening. Hope you guys got some good takeaways and, and enjoyed, , enjoyed the conversation. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

128 Surfing Etiquette & the Evolution of Surf Culture with Holly Beck

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/2e54dd33-c3b9-4165-8d3d-5e95b0780e08/Holly+Beck+Surf+Etiquette.png?format=1000w] Is the surfer catching the most waves always the best surfer in the lineup - or just the loudest? Surfing is more crowded than ever, and the line between etiquette and entitlement in the lineup is getting blurry. Whether you're new to surfing or a seasoned local, understanding the evolving ethics of surf culture can make or break your session - and everyone else’s. * Hear Holly Beck share how her transformation from competitive surfer to retreat leader changed her perspective on surf etiquette. * Learn why the unspoken “rules” of the lineup are more complex than just "who's deepest," and how understanding nuance can lead to a better surf experience. * Discover how surf culture can shift towards empathy and inclusivity without sacrificing skill, tradition, or respect.  Tune in to hear a refreshingly real and nuanced conversation that will challenge how you think about surfing, sharing waves, and what it truly means to be the best surfer in the water. https://surfwithamigas.com Transcript: Michael Frampton: . That's a good segue into what we're gonna talk about today, but there's another thing that's, , for those listening, we're gonna talk about etiquette today, soon, but let me ask you, here's a question that I've been asking guests recently, which I think ties into the, the broader topic of what we're gonna discuss today is, is surfing a sport or is it an art? Holly Beck: I think it depends. I think it could be either, depending on the participant. I think that for me, when I was a competitive surfer, then it was sport. And now that I'm not a competitive surfer, then for me it's more of an art. But I think that different people can, can make that choice and be right. You know, that both, both answers could be right, depending on the person and how they approach it. Michael Frampton: Okay. Holly Beck: What do you think? Michael Frampton: I, I agree with that. I, I I, I think it's a, well, I think it's a sport, obviously if you're in a surfing competition and you're being judged, you know, it's a sporting competition. And in those situations, surfing is a sport. However, when you were to watch the replay of John John surfing his final winning wave, it's pretty hard to argue how artistic and dance like the way he moves is, and I would, he hesitate to, to guess that he's just in the zone at trying to be one with the wave and express himself through surfing rather than, oh, I gotta hit the lip three times to get to the beach, to score a, an 8.7 that I need. Maybe sometimes he thinks like that, but I just think the, the, the best in the world, they treat competitive surfing like a sport, except when they're actually surfing, when they're actually standing up on the wave. That's when they're performing an art form. They just, all the competitive stuff, all the rules and regulations of , paddling around priority, all that jazz. The sporting stuff seems to sort of get, it should be forgotten about once you're up on the wave and then you're an artist essentially. Um, there's no finish. I wonder Holly Beck: if you could say the same thing about the greats in things that I think most of us would say are a sport like soccer or football, , my son is really into soccer and so I've been learning about soccer. I didn't play soccer growing up, but we've been watching messy, you know, videos of messy and all of, you know, the compilation on YouTube of the amazing goals that he's able to score and the different ways that he's able to do it. And I think when you mentioned Jonjo on his winning wave, I kind of had that same thought of like, if you are so great. At whatever it is that you're doing and you're in the flow, like the different ways of scoring a goal or even shooting a basket, you know, with the hang time and the style of the way that your arm is , at that point it's going beyond just, I need to get this ball into the goal, or I need to get this ball into the basket. And it's like the flare of how you do it that makes it into an art. Michael Frampton: I totally agree. I think messy is an artist. I think the difference is though, a football game, the score, if the ball goes in the goal, you know, there's a hard line you win. Like, like a running race is a great, like there's no arguing. You either won the race or you didn't. It doesn't matter whether the second place looked more beautiful doing it, this, they still came second. Whereas in surfing, we're almost judged on how artistic we look when we are actually surfing. The fastest surfer doesn't necessarily win. It's the most beautiful way that you surf with the wave that you've been given. So I'd almost argue that the sport of surfing is judged from an artistic perspective far more similar to gym gymnastics in the Olympics, for example. Holly Beck: Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: But Holly Beck: I, again, I feel like the, the difference in, well, at least the, the way that I interpreted your initial question is like how you are approaching it. You know, if there's like a, a sporting mindset of like my fitness and my training, and I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna perform a certain, I guess even using the word perform kind of messes it up. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna achieve a certain set of things versus I'm going to maintain my flexibility so that I can go out and perform my. Stance with the wave. So maybe it's just, I, I just noticed that my relationship to surfing has definitely changed. And, you know, 10 years ago I would answer your question differently than I answer it now. And I don't think that surfing has changed. I'm the one that's changed. Michael Frampton: Yeah, I guess my argument is that for most of my listeners, I, if you wanna get better at surfing, I think it's better to think of it as an art form rather than a sport. 'cause it sort of takes the competitiveness away from it. 'cause often when we think of sport, we think of competition, whereas surfing outside of competition, 99% of people listening to this probably more have no, um, have never competed in a surfing competition and have no desire to. However, they do want to get better at surfing and I like to sort of think of, , surfing as more like music than it is tennis. Holly Beck: Well, and then I guess you have to ask the question like, what does it mean to be better at surfing? Is it better because you're able to catch more waves, you're able to ride bigger waves, you are able to perform more advanced maneuvers? Or is it because you're able to go out there and connect with the ocean and feel the glide and have fun? Because for some people it might be really good at at the first and really bad at the second. And are they really better surfers because they can do Hess, but they're getting angry and they're making enemies and everybody in the lineup hates them. Does that make them a better surfer than somebody that's just paddling out and enjoying the experience and connecting with the other surfers and the water and ride standing up and having a beautiful long ride where they kick out of control of their board? Is that a better surfer? Michael Frampton: Well, exactly. And you hit on my point. I think that a lot of people, especially young beginners, , the way that they think about surfing is bastardized by the surf industry and the surfing media where they think, oh, a good surfer is someone who surfs a shortboard and does three to the beach. Whereas actually, if you think about surfing as not a, not a sport, but more of an art form, more like music, then you can actually sit down and go, actually, what does good surfing mean to me? And then there's such a broad spectrum of what that means. Maybe it is. Yeah. I do it actually. Damn it. I do want to show off and do three to beach and owning that and doing it is gonna make you better. Or I think for most of us listening, it's actually, you know, I just maybe surfing a bigger board and catching. Waves over here away from the crowd that aren't, don't peel as much, but I get more of them and it's just more about me adventure, surfing and connecting with the ocean. Actually, maybe that's more getting better at doing that, getting better at surfing that wave over there that no one else surfs or whatever it is. If you think of surfing as an art form, then you get to choose your genre of surfing and dive into that and decide what it is more rather than just, I would need to get the latest pop out shortboard model that so-and-so's riding and the wetsuit that he but, and the clothes or whatever. I just think so many people have been blindsided by the surf industry and the surf media as to what surfing is and when you change your whole philosophy. Define what your own surfing is and what you want out of it, then not only are you gonna be better at surfing, you're gonna be, you're gonna have a better attitude in the water. You're gonna be more fun to surf with. Um, blah blah blah. Which kind of leads us into the etiquette side of things. 'cause I think that ties into it quite nicely. Like if you are literally paddling out at a crowded surf break in a short, on a shortboard, and you want to just catch lots of waves and pretend that you're John John, there's a time and a place to do it. And if you're gonna do it at trestles, there's a different etiquette than if you were going to, you know, paddle a longboard out at, at Noosa on a, on a Kneehigh windless day. You know, the, the, those are two completely different situations and I think the etiquette needs to be, I don't think there's any one way of thinking about surf etiquette. Holly Beck: Well, I, I like what you said about it being specific to the, the situation and the different spot that you're in and, and that etiquette is like, there is a general set of like rules and also there's a lot of gray area, and also the rules change based on the situation. Michael Frampton: Definitely. We can agree on that. You, you, you do. You know, um, this came up because of some, there's been an article on Stab and Surfline and then there's been a bit of back and forth through Instagram, some of your posts, and then you reached out to me with an email. And I think we agree on in a lot of ways, but I think we also disagree in a lot of ways too. But let's hear some more of your extreme, not extreme. Um, some Holly Beck: call them extreme views. All right, I'll, I'll tell you where they came from. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Holly Beck: If that's how, that's what I'm trying to ask. So I, I, I grew up in the, and started surfing in the mid nineties in Palos Verdes, California. And Palos Verdes is really well known for having like intense, like old school etiquette. Like if you don't live here, you can't surf here. One of the things that creates the conditions for that is that the waves there are very infrequently good. The waves get amazing, they get world class. There's awesome waves, but you need a really specific type of swell to make them work. So all summer long it's completely flat and in the springtime when you get wind swells, it's junky. So the only time that makes those waves really good is when you get like a strong northwest long period swell. And then there's all of these points that light up and Palos Verdes is located in between Los Angeles and LA County. It's this little peninsula that sticks out. The freeways are really far away. Nobody's passing through Palos. You have to go there. And it's also a upper middle class location and the along the coast in Palos, because it's so beautiful and it's right in between LA and Orange County, it's really expensive to live there. So there's a lot of. Trust fund kids and very wealthy, you know, adults that live there that feel this sense of entitlement and privilege. And also the fact that the waves don't get good very often when they are good, there's this feeling of like, these are our waves, these are our waves in our backyard that we've waited all year to surf and we are gotta, we've gotta stop the outsiders for coming in, right? This is localism at its peak and that's what I grew up in. And, and so when I was young and getting indoctrinated into that, you know, I thought that was the way to do it. And you know, if you're a grom, you sit, you start at the beaches or you sit on the very inside and you don't get set waves and you have to like play all the different games of ingratiating yourself to the guys at the top of the pecking order and pay your dues and be out there on the sloppy days. And make friends. And then also, you know, it's like a pack of dogs. The, if the alpha is barking at outsiders and you want to be accepted by the alpha, then you have to also bark at the outsiders. So I got pulled into that pact of thinking that that was the right way to be and that was the cool way to be. And I also want, you know, to claim my share of this limited resource. And so if I saw, , people from out of town that I didn't know, I was a jerk to them, just like everybody else was paddling circles around them, dropping in on them, telling them to beat it. Like I had a friend who would, you know, on a crowded day, he would call out and he'd be like, who knows the zip code? If you don't know the zip code, turn and paddle in right now. Right. And, and so I thought that was normal and that was right. And I defended that. And then I eventually moved to, to Central America and was surfing very uncrowded spots and kind of started to develop a different perspective. And I started to surf with a big group of women and recognize that just because I lived there, you know, and here's these clients coming in for a week, does it mean that I get more right to waves than they do because I live there? And at first I said, yes. Yeah, maybe not my clients, but when I was out surfing this break, that is now my new home break. And then, you know, there's the local kids that are true locals, and then there's me who's lived there for 10 years. And then there's the guy from Florida who's been there a week. And so I kind of took that same mindset that said. I deserve more than you from Florida because I live here and continued it. And, and then, you know, I have progressed as a human and through the counseling degree and, and everything else. And, and I had been teaching to our clients. 'cause we teach etiquette, right? I believe that everybody needs to know etiquette. And if I'm teaching surfers how to surf, part of my responsibility as a surf instructor is to teach them etiquette so that I'm not just pushing him into waves, but I'm teaching them to become a surfer. So that means educating them on the history and how to be a surfer in the lineup. And I used to teach, okay, here it is, you know, the surfer closest to the breaking part of the wave has priority. And as you paddle out, you know, you make sure to paddle around into the channel if you can. And if you're paddling out and somebody's on the wave, it's your job to get outta the way and sacrifice yourself to the whitewash. And don't drop in and surface spot that's appropriate to your ability level and all of the basic. Rules that I think us as surfers don't argue about. Like we all agree that those are the rules of surfing. And then I used to say too, like we are not all equal. There's the guy who has been surfing here before you were born. There's the person who is an exceptional surfer that's lived there a long time. And then there's you as the visiting advanced beginner or beginner on a long board. And you're not all equal If you all paddle out at the same time and the set wave comes, probably the guy who's been surfing here before you're born is gonna take the first good wave and then the aspiring pro surfer is gonna take the next good wave and then it's your turn. And that was what I would teach. And I started to adjust my mindset and I gotta give credit where it's due. Part of it was from a good friend of mine who is a woman of color, and she had created this organization, co-founded an organization called, um, color the Water that was all about taking people from communities that traditionally didn't have access to surfing and help bring them into surfing. And, and she had this like, we'll call it like woke, but like, you know, uh, evolved. Vision of equality that I didn't agree with. 'cause I was like, no, if you don't live here and you're a beginner or you know you haven't grown up there, then you need to give extra respect to the locals. And we got in these big arguments and over time I started to change my mindset because a lot of the things that she was saying was like, why is it that Just because, let's use me as an example. I came from a privileged background of having the opportunity to grow up in this beautiful surfing paradise. And I am, came from a family with money. So I didn't have to work when I was in, I mean, I did work in high school, but like not in the sense that stopped me from going to the beach. I didn't have to like help provide for my family. And then. I was able to continue to live that lifestyle that was able to spend a lot of time to become a good surfer and to spend a lot of time at a certain break. That was a lot of privilege and luck that I had. And why does that make me more worthy of set weights? Like it shouldn't, right? The ocean is for everyone. So if I paddle out into the water, just because I grew up surfing and I live close to this break, if somebody didn't grow up by the beach, they grew up inland and they've moved to the coast and they have to work to support their family, so they only get to surf one day a week. So they're still, you know, learning to surf. Why does that person not have a right to catch a set wave? And, and like, I didn't have a good answer for that. Michael Frampton: Do you? I the, the way that you grew up in surfing partly answers it. I, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's specific to where you're surfing. Like this, this person, if this person took that attitude out to uh, uh, head high day at first point Malibu, Holly Beck: well, what's the attitude? Good, good. What's the attitude? Michael Frampton: What do you mean? Holly Beck: You said if this person takes that attitude, what attitude? Define the attitude. Michael Frampton: Thinking that they should just get their turn because they paddled out at a surf spot and that everyone should have turns. Is that what you're sort of getting at? Holly Beck: I, that's, I think that's what we're getting at. But let's, let's remove Malibu or Lenta Bay from it and let's just think about average. Average surf spot. Any surf spot, random surf spot, not famous, intense. We're not talking about pipeline or Malibu or raglin. We're just talking about a, a beach break. Mm. Crappy, crappy beach break. And three of us are going surfing and one of us lives there and one of us is a pro surfer and one of us is, they're ca capable of surfing those waves. I'm not saying somebody in their first day ever, that's gonna be a danger to anyone. I think a lot of times in this conversation, the argument becomes you're advocating for beginners at the peak. No, no, no. I'm not saying that. Saying that we're all capable surfers. Mm-hmm. But one of us has been surfing at that spot since before we were born, and the other one has been surfing there for 10 years and somebody else, it's maybe their first time there. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Okay. So in that, in that situation. Yes. I, I, I see what you're saying. Like if, if we all three went out surfing together at a spot and it would be, there's enough waves for us to take turns and still get our fix, and each person is going to respect each other as from a human level, not just a surfing level. It, it sounds awesome. And in that situation, I, I agree with you. How, however, during that same surf if, because I've been surfing there all my life and I see it's let, let's say it's, , Janet's turn and she's the first time she's a capable surfer, but it's the first time she's surfed there. And we've been sharing waves all the time. But I see, I see something on the horizon that indicates to me, oh, there's a rogue set coming. I know where these ones break and I paddle out, it's her turn and I paddle out a little bit further. She follows me, but. My experience out at this break has told me no, there's a wave that there's a rogue wave that's gonna break there. I don't care if it's her turn. This is my experience coming through. I'm taking that wave no matter what. That's where we get into the nuance and the, because my, my I, I'm more competent to that break. I understand that wave more. 'cause I've spent more time out there. I think I should be able to catch that wave of the day and not necessarily give it to her unless I felt generous in the time and I wanted her to catch that wave. 'cause I wanted to share the stoke. Maybe I'm a little bit older and more mature and I've, damn, I've had my fix for today. So I think there's a lot of nuance there. And that decision was like, do I, do I use my. Experience as a surfer in this break to get that the best wave of the day? Or do I share it with someone else because, not just because it's their turn, but maybe that's the a nice thing to do in the moment. That's where I think the nuance exists in this situation. However, there's not many situations like that. Usually when you go surfing, no matter where you go, whether it's first point Malibu or some closeout beach. So in between there and Trestles or anywhere on the along the coast, there's people everywhere and it's so hard to get away from people. And I would say most people under 45 have the old school mentality of surfing. So you are, you're in this sort of gray area of like, do I be nice area? No one else is taking turns. Why should I? Holly Beck: Well, that's the problem. And I, and I think that, that, that is where it comes in. And, and to like, to go back to your example, like yeah, the local, that is a good surfer, that knows that break is gonna get more waves and you probably will get the best wave of the day that comes in. And as you should, that is your, that is your benefit, that is your reward for having put that time in and studied that spot. Right? So I'm not saying that like, if there's three of you, you should all have the exact same number of ways. My, my point would be that you see that lump coming and you know where it's gonna be and you paddle over and, and maybe she follows you, but you've initiated it and you've taken it. Like, I think that's fine. The problem is that if you take it here. And then she goes, okay. Right. I'm gonna, I've noticed I'm learning from him and I'm noticing that there might be a good one there. And she paddles over it. There's not a second wave in the set, unfortunately. But she sits there and waits and you go, oh, right. She's kind of in my spot, but I'm gonna paddle back around her and sit a little deeper that way. The next one that comes, I'm gonna take that one too, because that's my right as a local at this spot, because that is the attitude that I see happen. Mm-hmm. So I agree with your, your nuance. I think that there is, there is nuance and it does break down when too many people are fighting. So, but I think it's important to start with what would we do if there were just a few of us? What would be the right thing to do? Throw away the old rules and think about what would be the right thing to do? What would be the human thing to do? It's never gonna be completely equal, but if you think about what would happen if there were just a few of us, how would I behave? How would I act? What, you know how it is when just like you and your friends go surfing. Like if you do get one of those lucky days where there's just four or five of you and you're cheering for each other and yeah, maybe somebody catches a few more than others, just happens to be in the flow and those waves just come right to them, you know? But they're gonna, you're gonna recognize if you're out surfing with your friends, right? You're gonna recognize, Ooh, I've kind of gotten really lucky and I've just got three good ones in a row. And even though this other good one is kind of coming right to me, I noticed my friend hasn't had one. So you're gonna most likely back off and be like, go. This one's yours, right? Like that's how you would behave in a small group of surfers that you knew, or even a smaller group of surfers that you didn't know. Like most humans are gonna respond like that. So my point is, if we were teaching that as the right way to do it, even in a giant group of surfers at Malibu, if that was the norm. Then I feel like surfing culture would change a little bit. And instead what I've noticed is that as it gets more crowded, people are holding even tighter to the old ways and also they just don't know. So part of what has made me think about this more lately, yes, my, that conversation with my friend kind of opened my eyes to, wow, I have experienced a lot of privilege and maybe I should be using my privilege to be nicer in the water instead of just putting the blinders on. But lately I've been surfing a point break that used to be a secret spot that now is becoming more and more known and more and more crowded and. I've been frustrated by it. There's like a top of the point where like the very tippy top where all the aggressive surfers paddle each other too deep to be the deepest. But the actual best part of the wave in my experience is a little wider. Like the ones I sit a little further down the point and the waves that swing wide, the wave that they break on the point is actually where I prefer to sit. So I generally sit there and so I watch the aggressive surfers do laps. And there was this one day, there was this surfer. He was kind of darker skinned, but it wasn't obvious that he was local. I was, I'm in Costa Rica, so he, it wasn't obvious that he was a local Costa Rican, but he did have a little darker skin and he was wearing these bright red board shorts and I'd never seen him before. And I've spent a lot of time at this break. So I feel like I know most of the true locals. I'd never seen him before. And he was just doing laps. He was a good surfer and he would catch a set wave. He would catch a little wave. It wasn't like he was just waiting for the best waves of the day. He was paddling for any wave he could catch, and he was riding them and bee lining it straight back to the top of the point and going again. And he was really irritating. A lot of the people in the water were irritated with this guy and some people were grumbling to each other, but no one was really saying anything. And probably third day of seeing him during the swell, I had a friend paddle out, a girl on a longboard. She was having a hard day, she just needed to get a couple waves. We were kind of, we started chatting, we sort of floated down to the very bottom of the wave and she was like, uh, I'm so frustrated. I just need a wave. And I see red shorts up and riding again. And he has already traversed, you know, like 50 meters. This is a real long point break. We're at the very, very end of the wave where most people just kick out. Anyways, she's on a long board and I tell her, oh, it, it's just red shorts go. You go drop in on it. Which, you know, may have, may not been the right thing to do. But in that moment, I'm trying to look out for my friend. This guy's not caring about anyone else. So I tell her to go, she's like, really, really the guy? And I'm like, don't worry. He's been, he's been taking too many, everybody's annoyed with this guy. So she drops in on him and he is racing down the line. And what most I think of us would've done would've been like, Ugh, and kicked out, whatever. I've had a hundred waves today. Let let the girl on the long board go. But he didn't. He forced it and yelled at her and she got flustered and she fell off. And I'm like, oh my God, I've caused this. So I'm sitting there preparing my apology. I'm thinking to myself, when he paddles back out, I'm gonna apologize to him and I'm gonna say, Hey, I'm, that was my fault. I'm so sorry I told my friend to go, but this is why I've noticed that you've been catching a ton of waves. Maybe you should let a, a few go. Before I got a chance to say that to him, he paddles up angrily. And my friend, who's already had a bad day, she just releases her anger on him. And instead of apologizing, she goes, I heard that you've been taking all the waves, and that's not cool. And now we're all yelling at each other, just the opposite of the vibe I'm trying to create in the water. But I got kind of sucked in. And, and he doesn't understand because in his mind, he got dropped in on and yelled at. And now I'm, instead of calmly apologizing and having an opening to this conversation, I'm now yelling back at him and we have this whole thing. And, and he paddles away. And now all three of us and the, uh, the bystanders in the water, everybody's nervous system is activated. And I was like, Ugh. And eventually he paddled over to another one of our friends and said, what? I don't understand what just happened. So she told me that. So I paddled up to him and in a much calmer way, I explained what happened and he told me he thought he was following the rules. He was like, but I was deepest, so that means I have priority. And, and I, that was the realization that, you know, everybody in the water is annoyed with this guy, but he doesn't realize it because in his mind he's a hundred percent justified. He's following the rules. And you know, we eventually, we explained, we, you know, Pura Vida High five, we respected each other's surfing. And I think it was only because I am a very competent surfer that he would even hear me out because that is surfing, right? We as surfers respect other talented surfers. And you know, he had, he commented like he had seen me, , catching waves. And I said, yeah, I also respect your surfing , so we can have this conversation. And a few days later I saw a very similar thing happen with a, like a beginner surfer. This guy could barely surf, but he was doing the same thing. He was paddling up to the top of the point. He was going on waves, he was falling, he was doing it over again. And I went to him and had a nice conversation. I was like, Hey, I noticed you're catching a lot of waves and even dropping in on, or not dropping on people, but like dropping in too deep. You know, like he was taking waves that if he had let them go, other surfers could ride. So he was blocking people from catching waves in that way. And I'm like, but you know, you should really sit down the way or let some waves go. And he's like, but I was deepest. And so that is what made me realize that this is the problem, is that when we as surfer culture are having these conversations, we're telling people these are the rules closest to the breaking part has priority. Don't drop in, paddle around, but there's no mention of and look out for other surfers. Keep in mind that just because you can sit deepest and take waves, that doesn't, there's more to it. And soon after I'd been having these conversations, I was scrolling Instagram as you do. And I saw that, I think it was Surfline had this really cool feature that they had clearly invested money in. And there was these animated graphics and it was all like the rules of surfing. And I was so interested. So like, so what are they gonna have? And, and it was all of those rules. It was like surf at a spot appropriate to your level, you know, all the things that we already listed, no mention of, and look out for the other surfers and take turns. And just because your deepest doesn't mean that you should have priority forever. Like it, like similar to your, I listened to your podcast of, uh, Laird, you know, the, when you had the, you told the story of Laird. Yeah. Where I was like. Laird thinks he's Laird, so he gets to go, you know, and it, it's like, why aren't we having this conversation more that it isn't just if you're the best surfer and you can take off the deepest that you get more waves. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Uh, it's so nuanced. And to take that lad story, I think the lad story and your story of red shorts are quite similar in a way. Do you know the only, the only reason that LAD was getting so many waves off me. Is because I let him, and the only reason Red Shorts was doing what he did is 'cause he was acting like a kook and no one was pulling him up on it now until you calmly spoke to him. And he's like, oh. So I describe a kook as someone who's with a lack of awareness. It doesn't matter whether you're a good surfer or not. You, if you're out there just running rings around everyone else and with a complete lack of awareness, just think, oh, just 'cause I'm just, 'cause I can drop in, you know, more than earlier than you. I get all the waves. You're acting like a kook and it's up to one of the elders. Now, maybe it's one of the elders drops in on him, pushes him deep, and then the guy comes at him and starts yelling at him and he just looks him in the eye and says, nah, man, you're going in. That's the old school way of way of doing it. And that's how it used to get sorted out. But nowadays it's more like, actually, we'll let you vent and calm down and then I'm gonna have a logical conversation with you. And if you're still gonna act like that, well you know what you're gonna get dropped in on. And everyone's on my side. And I, I, I think, so in my, the situation with lead, I didn't speak up early enough and I mean, of course part of it's lead Lead is who lead is because of what lead does. That's part of it too. But at the same time, when I did stick up for myself, he was, he kind of more appreciated it than anything else. And just like with red shorts guy, I, I'm assuming he did change his attitude or he paddled in that day, or, I mean, what ha have you seen him since? Like what, what's the follow on from No, I, Holly Beck: I never saw him again. It was, it ended up being the last day of his. Of his trip. He, he turned out to be Costa Rican and which is something he like, let made sure to let me know and that, but he lived in a different part of Costa Rica and, and when we finally had that conversation, it was like, at the very end of this, we'd both gone in, we we're both on the beach and had the conversation on the beach. So I never got a chance, but I, I, I hoped that he thought about it because that, like, that was the realization was that to me it seemed like he just didn't realize, like he, like I think Laird realizes, like Laird knows, right? Like, I wanna think that Laird knows that. It would be nicer to share waves, but because he is layered, nobody's gonna say anything. Where in this case, both red shorts and the beginner guy that I mentioned, they just literally didn't know. Like they looked at me like there was some, like they were shocked that I was calling them out because they thought they were in the right. Because even when you, you know, you go to a surf break and you see the like signs now that they have at places mm-hmm. That are like the rules of surfing. You know, again, the rules are surfer deepest and don't drop in. And that, that, that's the conversation that I wanna have. Like I recognize that there's nuance and you get to a certain level of certain number of people in the water and it's just like, it's becomes chaos. But I wish that there was more conversation around and let's look out for each other in the water. Because sometimes I think that that person that is catching so many waves, obviously everybody's different, but a lot of times they think that they're crushing it. They think they're showing off. Mm-hmm. They think that the other surfers in the water are like in awe of all the waves they're catching and how they're ripping. And if we, as a surfing culture, were adjusting what we felt like was good surfing and that included was pleasant to surf with. Then I think that the lineup would be nicer for everyone. And then the shredder, because that's how I try to surf now. You know, like, don't get me wrong, I like to be the best surfer in the water when I, when I'm having a good day. And I love it when I do a big turn and someone comments, and I love it when I get the best set wave of the day. Like I still have that. But I have now recognized that if I have that, but everybody's annoyed with me, then I'm not actually the best surfer in the water. And that that's the part that I wish was more a part of surf culture. Because I think that still, there are people, a lot of them like that believe that part of being the best surfer in the water is also getting the most or the best waves. And it's aside from just their enjoyment of those waves, but they actually think that that is them, you know, winning. Winning the surf session. Michael Frampton: Yeah. . And I think . Pre CCTV, that person would've been showing the door through old school passive aggressive localism, which I agree with you, but not if they Holly Beck: were local. Michael Frampton: No, it depends if, if he, if he, it depends on who he's snaking. You know, if he's, if he's out, if there's a bunch of plumbers that want to get their three waves before work and they're older than him, well, you know, he's not gonna get away with it back in the day. Nowadays with CCTV, no one wants to say anything. No one wants any, no one wants conflict. People just ignore these sorts of people and just. Like, I mean, ld LD is gonna go out and catch as many waves as LD can catch. He's, there's no etiquette in Laird's mind. It's a dog eat dog world. I'm the best. It's a hierarchy of confidence. I'm dropping in deepest, I'm on a standup foil board. I don't give a shit until someone looks him in the eye and says something to him and says, actually, I'm gonna then let Mike go. You know what? You made the effort to actually say something to me and make a conversation and prove to me that you can catch a wave on the peak. Yeah. Okay. We'll, we'll go wave for wave now. I, I think the, the problem in the culture is no one says anything, therefore narcissistic and kooks like red shorts guy and lead Hamilton will do whatever they want to catch as many as waves as they can. Now I, I agree. I don't think you should go dropping in on someone and pushing them into the reef and being passive aggressive about it. But neither should you just say nothing. Paddle up to him, look him in the eye. If he's not willing to have a conversation, he keeps doing what he's doing well hey, maybe, maybe then drop in on him 'cause he is not listening and he, so I, I think I, I agree with you. I just think that the, the rule surfing has no rules. You know, I think that's the beauty about surfing. But yes, there are ethical practices to make sure that lineups are safe. 'cause at the end of the day, it's a safety issue, right? If someone's gonna be like that, people are gonna get frustrated, they're gonna make bad decisions, they're gonna drop in on some, on him, on a long board, someone's gonna get hurt, whether it's a wave of consequence or not. So it does come back to a safety issue. So if, if, if someone like red shorts is, is being a dick and at a, at a surf break where there's no real shallow reef or anything, the consequences are people are gonna get frustrated with him and a long board's gonna get in somewhere. So maybe it's up to one of the elders to actually pull this guy aside and say, Hey look. You're active, this is the way you're acting, this is the way people in the lineup are seeing you. Just letting you know, yes you are, you're a good surfer. You can paddle deeper than everyone else, but this is how people are experiencing you Holly Beck: just to, and, and I think that having, having these conversations helps spread that idea because I think that a lot of people, like in, in this particular case, there's not really elders at this spot. You know? Like this is a, the spot that you kind of used to be a secret spot. And now a lot of people that surf there, like they're just that, that doesn't really like, I guess I'm the elder in this case, like I was, I find myself at this spot a lot. Like I don't feel like I normally would count as an elder, but I'm kind of filling that role as someone that surfs there a long time, has the surfing skill to kind of back it up and feels like I can speak up. But there's plenty of other people in the water who are surf there a lot longer than this guy. But I think they don't feel empowered. To stick up because that isn't what they've been taught. Like, I think it goes back to this thing like the, to popularize the idea that if someone is taking too many waves, like that isn't okay. Like we should be taking turns. And that doesn't mean that the actual, you know, old man that's been serving there forever, that's 70 years old that doesn't catch that many waves and he's finally gonna go and not look. Of course I'm gonna say, yeah, you go, you know, there's some element of, you know, respecting these certain individuals, but with the idea that the respect goes both ways. Right. I, I think a, a lot of times also when I have this conversation, or at least when, when I was having it on the keyboard through Instagram and I was getting so frustrated because I couldn't actually have a conversation. A lot of the keyboard warriors were saying, if, if people sitting on the shoulder wanna catch more waves, they should just sit deeper. And, and I feel like that goes against it because it's like, if. At this break, again, as I say, like there's the, the steeper top takeoff and then it's a really long wave with a nice sloping shoulder. And there are a lot of kind of advanced beginners or lower intermediate surfers that ride fishes and mid lengths and even long boards sitting at this break. And if the only way to tell them, the only way they can catch a wave is by being deepest, then that invites all of them to have to go sit at the top of the point. But they don't wanna sit at the top of the point. And if we said you on the long board, that's really better off sitting on the shoulder. The only way that you can get in position to have your turn come up is to sit at the top of the point. That's actually what's endangering people. So the better practice is for the surfers at the top of the point to occasionally let some waves go. Have it not always be the surfer at the very top of the points priority, just because they're capable of sitting deepest. Because the alternative is to have these surfers have to sit further up and then they're not as competent. And if they do wipe out, they're right in the thick of things. Like I would rather that surfer sit further down the shoulder and after I've had a few waves and here I am on another wave and I see this beginner surfer on the shoulder that still hasn't had one, like I should kick out and be like, you go, I'm not gonna do it on the very best wave that comes in. Right. But like, it should be their turn, it should be their priority. Hmm. And, and, and I feel like that's you, you don't agree. How are they ever gonna be good enough to sit at the top of the point if they're never allowed to catch a wave? Michael Frampton: Yeah, no. Uh. I see your point of view. However, it it, it makes me think of, uh, , I, I haven't surfed in this place. I haven't surfed in this culture. It's hard for me to comment. So let me give you an, like, I surfed first Point Malibu a lot and yeah, nowadays there's a handful of surf instructors on the inside pushing kooks into wave cos like people with lack of awareness, people there for the tourist experience, quite frankly, people that should be practicing how to stand up on a surfboard in the whitewash at Zuma Beach where there's no one else around. Now if I, now, if I spend an hour sitting on the peak waiting for my turn for a set wave at Malibu first point, and I finally get one of these waves. And I managed to surf it most of the way through. And this is at the end of the section. I wanna finish off with a nice nose right and glide out. But no, so-and-so's pushing soft top in my way. I'm no, I I should have been allowed to do two more turns on that wave and you should actually be at a different break learning how, even though this wave is catchable here, it's still actually quite a rippable wave for good surfers. Just 'cause it's harder to catch further up doesn't mean that you get to catch the last part of the wave. So Holly Beck: I agree with you a hundred percent and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm, I'm talking about, let's say. You, I'm sure you're very capable of sitting steep and deep in Malibu. And Malibu is maybe not the best example, but let's just use it. I know how Malibu at sitting at the top. It can be a little steeper and then it's a little easier to get in on the shoulder, right? And we're not talking about like the a plus day where all the pros are out and it's, it's crazy. Just an average day at Malibu, and I'm not talking about the beginner on the soft top, getting pushed in by an instructor. We're not talking about that guy. Talking about the maybe one level down and skill from you, however you would define that. Not as good as you, but like aspiring to be as good as you, almost as good as you. Not quite as good at taking off steep and deep, not quite as able to sit late underneath all the crowd. Little bit more nervous about sitting there, wants to sit a little further over to have a little bit more time on their popup, but they're capable of getting up and riding down the wave. Without such a pressure situation. Mm-hmm. It's more like that person. It's that person that is, is also paying their dues, is also waiting their turn has watched you get a few good ones. Okay. You've been sitting for an hour and you haven't had one. No, please don't give your wave away for this person, but I'm talking after you've had a few and everyone else sitting with you has had a few, and you've paddled past this person that's just sitting like 10 feet over, 15 feet over because they just don't have the, whatever, the confidence, the experience mm-hmm. To sit. As steep and deep. That's the person I'm talking about. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. I've been that person. Yep. I've, I'm there. I'm there. There's no way. When I, when I was that person, there's no part of me that would paddle out to halfway up the point at first point Malibu and expect someone to pull off after having caught the wave at the peak and give me a wave. No, I'm there to get the scraps. I'm there to get the wide sets that do come through that the other, that the guys sitting at the point don't want. And I will sit up into the point and I'll watch them and I'll learn from, and I'll put hours upon hours into that wave to learn how that wave breaks before. Now I, now you've, and now Holly Beck: you've gotten a little closer and that, that's good. Michael Frampton: Yep. Holly Beck: Good job doing that. And now you've gotten a little closer. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and the idea that what if there's a guy that can take off four feet deeper than you and every single time he paddles past you Every time. Michael Frampton: Yep. Holly Beck: Because he is like, I live here. I live right here on the point. Michael Frampton: That's not why, but he's just more skillful and knows the wave better. Holly Beck: Or, or maybe he's, maybe you guys are equal. Maybe he's actually an equal server, but the fact that he lives there gives him a certain amount of entitlement and knows everyone else in the water. Mm-hmm. Like, wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be more enjoyable for you if he didn't paddle past you every single time? Michael Frampton: So I, and just said, Holly Beck: I'm going, Michael Frampton: I, I also lived in Sydney and I used to surf a slab, like quite a difficult wave. And the takeoff zone is very small. Only about five people can even sit there. So, and I spent, gosh, it was, I, I surfed there for hours every single day for at least a year before I was allowed to get a set wave. And there is no part of me that thought, oh my God, I wish you had just given me a turn. Or, you know what I mean? Now, partly 'cause it's a safety issue as like I, they knew whether consciously or not, I didn't have the skill to take off right at the deepest part of the wave. 'cause I might've got dragged along the reef and I, I certainly wasn't a local. And so I got the scraps and I caught the ones on the shoulders for years. And then every now and then I paddle out early in the morning and there's no one out. And I got to paddle. I got to take a few from the takeoff point, and I, I worked my way up. So I've, I've been in these situations. I can understand why people new to surfing think that, oh no, shouldn't I just be allowed a turn? How do I, how else am I gonna get good at taking off deep without, unless you give me a turn at doing it. So I, I see your point, and I see newcomers coming at this from this perspective, but I also see the tradition and I, I, okay, some locals take it to the extreme and aren't necessarily doing it for reasons of safety and culture and ethics and stuff. They just want their waves. But we also have to deal with those people 'cause they're not gonna change their ways either. So. Well, Holly Beck: I think it's sometimes it's hard to, when we've grown up in this culture and, and we like, it's like that. I, I hear you and I can relate to the fact that I paid my dues. Now you have to pay your dues. It's, it's almost like that the whole culture of like hazing, you know, like the seniors beat up on the freshmen and, and then those freshmen grow up and be seniors and then they beat up on the freshmen and, and it just like the cycle or I know in the fire service my partners of was, is a retired firefighter and talks about like in the fire services the same way like the young guys have to do the grunt jobs because that is how it's always been. But if you take a moment to separate from that and think, but should it be that way? It's like, yes, we had to deal with that. We got yelled at and kept on the inside and forced to sit on the shoulder, you know? And because, and now because we survived through that and got to the other side, now we're gonna expect that everybody else has to do it too. Like, I, I get that, but it's just the question of, and, and I think again, like. When you're talking about pipeline or this slab or first point Malibu, it's a harder conversation to have. But what I see is that even at inconsequential waves, you know, and we're not, again, we're not talking about like the beginner getting pushed in on the soft top. I agree with that too, but what I'm talking about is the more like the middle ground, the average surf session, the e similar inability levels, but maybe this one's a little better than that one and, and it still happens. There's still this idea that like, if I surf better than you, or if I'm more from this spot. Then I get more and, and it the only, I just don't think that it's like, you know, you go to the grocery store and you wait in line. And even if it's really crowded and there's only one checkout counter for like so many grocery shoppers, like nobody's expecting that if you live next door to the grocery store or you've been surf or checking out at that grocery store for 20 years, that you get to cut the line. You know? And it's like, why in surfing do we decide that if you're really good at grocery shopping and you live right next door and you've been shopping at that grocery store since you were a little tiny kid, that you get to go to the front of the line and nope, sorry, you just gotta pay your dues. And then one day when you put in the time, you'll get to where I am. And, and I understand when it's a safety issue. A hundred percent agree. And yes, a beginner that should be writing whitewash should not be taken to the top of the point. I see that at this wave too. I see surf instructor, we, we don't bring our clients to the top of the point. We have them sit at the bottom of the point because they don't need to be riding those waves. But if we get a guest that is a competent surfer that knows those how to surf, we're not pushing them in, we're just sort of guiding or coaching them, then they should be able to go out to show respect, to wait their turn. And then when they've done all those things and the set wave comes, not have somebody that's lived there longer back paddle them or drop in on them or tell them that they should be sitting down the beach just 'cause they're not from there. And, and I feel like whenever we have this conversation, it always goes to the extremes. In the extreme, I agree with you. But just to start moving in that direction. Because even in the extremes, if, if I think that if part of culture, surfing culture was this idea that if we're all catching waves, the lineup is a healthier, happier place. And, and yeah, if you are being dangerous, then please go down the line. But like if we're all out there together, then the locals and the better surfs, they're gonna get more waves, they're gonna get more set waves. But that doesn't mean that they have more right to those set waves. Like the other person should have the opportunity to try for a set wave and if they fall, they fall, that's okay. That was their turn. There's no such thing as a wasted wave. Whether I caught the wave and rode it all the way to the beach, or I caught the wave and blew my popup and fell, that was my turn. I could do whatever I want with my turn. If I'm riding a thin looks board and I blow it. That's, but Michael Frampton: the, well, with the irony, the irony there is depending on the break, but in a lot of places, if you don't get, if you stuff up your turn, you don't get another turn. Right. Not that, not that day anyway. I, I, I see what you're saying in terms of the, I don't disagree with you. But it's so hard for me to comment having never surfed this specific place, Holly Beck: and I'm just using this spot as an example. Like I, today I surfed a whatever beach break right out front. But I noticed the same factors at play. The, the locals that all knew each other, that are speaking each other in Spanish, and they see me as the blonde girl and they think that I don't live here and I don't speak Spanish, and they paddle straight past me to the top of the point, you know, I'm sitting there waiting for it, not the point, the peak where I'm at a beach break. I'm sitting here waiting for my wave. I know exactly the wave I'm looking for. I know how to surf. And the guy just paddles right around the side of me, you know? And I'm just like, you didn't need to do that. We're at a beach break. It's not even very good. There's plenty of ways coming in, like just because you live here, you don't need to assert your dominance and paddle around the other side of me. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yep. Yeah. No, I, I I, I, I do agree with you. It's just so nuanced and so, um, I mean, surfing has a hierarchy of competence. There's no, and yeah, I'm using extreme waves like Malibu and pipeline to, and we all always seem to go there, but I think sometimes when you're trying to make a point, it's good to talk about the extremes because what's on the other side of it, like, okay, let's say go to ATU and there's an 18 second swell coming in. And have you, have you surfed, I'm assuming you've surfed ATU before? Holly Beck: Yeah, not a ton, but I have. Michael Frampton: But even just walking down the stairs to get to paddle out is tough. But the amount of people that I saw out surfing. ATU on soft tops and just having no idea what they're doing. And there's locals up on the cliff whistling at them 'cause they've gone too far and they come reef cuts. It's just like, I can see why, like if you're a good Aussie surfer and you want to go to ATU to surf in 18 seconds swell, and then you try and catch one of these crazy waves and there's just a bunch of people flailing in front of you. It's really frustrating. Can, can they manage to catch one of these waves and ride along? Yeah, sure they can, but they're putting themselves and other people at risk in doing it. So when I read, we see articles coming at it from the other extreme on stab where Aussie surfers are sick of these tourist kooks getting in the way and hurting themselves. And you see that that's another extreme right. People are taking this entitlement. It's my turn. Holly Beck: That's, but that's not what we're talking about. Michael Frampton: No, I know, but it feeds, it does feed into it a little bit. Because you can see if you've, there's Holly Beck: always based on the idea that you are capable of surfing this spot if you are a beginner, and yeah, you could take off on a wave and go straight, but like you're dangerous to yourself and others. You shouldn't be out there. I'm not saying that, Michael Frampton: but that's why Holly Beck: the extremes. I agree with you a hundred percent. Michael Frampton: But that, that's what I'm saying is that a wave like ATU is a very tricky takeoff spot. Holly Beck: Yeah. Michael Frampton: You can sit a bit further down and get into one of those waves a lot easier, but if someone has put the time and effort in to become a a surfer, good enough to take off. At the spot at ATU and they finally get one and they get barreled and they come out and they're like, come out to the softer part of the wave and they wanna rip a few turns as well. And then there's some person, oh, it's my turn to go. 'cause this is the easier part of the wave. I would say to that person, you're surfing the wrong spot. If you can't take off at the deepest gnarliest part of that point, break that peels all the way through, go somewhere else. So if I'm a local and I've negotiated the, the barrel section of a point break, and yes it's sections, but I wanna do some cutbacks as well on that wave and someone thinks, oh, but it's my turn. First of all, I, I'm surfing 50 meters up the line. I don't know whether you've just caught eight waves or not. I don't know whether it's your turn or not. So whilst I see it's frustrating for the, the beginner intermediate to sit on the shoulder and catch some good waves at a point break. I'm also thinking, shit, maybe you should be at a point break where it's not as tricky to negotiate or at a beach break practicing to get good enough to actually sit closer to the point. Maybe not to fight for the set waves right at the point, but to at least be seen to be competent by that group that are doing it. So maybe they will, you know, okay, that's not a great set wave. You, you go on the shoulder. Do you see what I'm saying? The the, the, I do Holly Beck: and I agree with you and I agree and that's where I feel like there's so much nuance because what I think what I'm saying is, yeah, you're the guy and you've gotten the sick barrel and the wave is still going and you wanna do like five round house cutbacks. You should absolutely do that. But maybe on the next wave that you get, you come out of the barrel and now you're like, you know what, I already, I just rode that last one all the way to the beach and did five cutbacks. But actually the part of the wave I'm enjoying the most is the top with the barrel and. I could do five more cutbacks on this wave again. But I also see this long borderer really wanting to have one. And you know what? I, I'm just gonna kick out and let them go. It's not because you have to, it's because that is what's actually gonna make you a better surfer in the water and the long boarder paddles back out and you've made their, that got the best wave of their trip. Right. You're not gonna do it every single time, and you're a hundred percent entitled to ride that wave all the way through. But I think again, like it just, the, the guy that's done the barrel and wants to do the cutbacks, he doesn't need to do that on 15 waves. Right. But, but like, that's not what we're teaching. We are teaching them. Yeah, I'm the guy and I can do that on every single wave because I have more right to surfing than you because I'm a better surfer and I live here and you're a danger, go somewhere else. You know, and, and I, and I feel like it might not be that person's fault. Like they might be there with their better surfing partner who's also up at the top of the wave. They would love to go somewhere else. They don't wanna be there, but for whatever reason, this is where they are. This is where they happen to be, and they're trying their best to stay out of their way. They don't wanna hurt you. They don't wanna mess up your wave, you know? And, and I think that's the conversation. And it is so nuanced, you know, because I don't think that they have the right to drop in on you just because it's their turn. I'm not saying that. Mm-hmm. But I feel like if I, as the good surfer, have now changed my mindset, believe me, I wanna go out there and get mine. I'm a busy mom. I don't get to surf as much as I used to. I have sessions when I go out there and I just need to get a couple waves and I'm gonna go get those waves. But after I've had a couple, I'm way more likely with this change of mindset to be like, if I give a wave away. Like, call it karma or just line up good vibes or whatever. Like, I'm gonna stoke this person out. I don't need, I don't need to do three more cutbacks on this wave. I really don't need to, I'm gonna be seen as a better surfer. I'm gonna be more enjoyable to surf with. I'm gonna be more respected in the water. I, if I do kick outta this one, you know, if I go to paddle for Wave, I'm deepest. It's a fun shoulder, high wave, but here's this competent, lesser skilled surfer sitting nearby that I know I've paddled around three times already, because they can't sit as deep. They don't wanna sit as deep, like, maybe I am just gonna let this wave go. I don't need it. You know? Mm-hmm. I don't have to do that. That's the choice I'm making. But that's the Right, that's the ethical thing. If we're talking about ethics, surfing ethics, like that would be the more ethical thing to do. And if more people surf like that, better surfers than me, surf like that, then when I'm at a spot that's like in my challenge zone. And if there was someone in the water that has had four waves, that I'm sitting a little bit on the shoulder 'cause I'm kind of feeling nervous and I'm learning from them and I'm trying to figure out the positioning and I'm kind of nervous to go. And they look at me and they're like, Hey, go. I'm gonna be so stoked. It's like that paying it forward, like we were all beginners. And I think that now the culture is, I was a beginner and I suffered, and therefore you have to suffer. But imagine that you could go back and be that beginner and the more experienced surfer was there to kind of support you and lend you a hand, and then you were the one paying that forward. Like, I don't know, it's such a utopian vision that doesn't exist. But we can create that if that's the conversation that starts happening. And you're right that there's gonna be people that are not gonna change. But you know, I'm 45, those people are getting older. Eventually they're gonna need knee replacements and hip replacements, and they're gonna be on a long board sitting on the shoulder. And it, it's the surfers that are learning to surf now that are gonna make the culture going forward. So can we shift the conversation at least a little bit? Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. We definitely can. And again, I don't disagree. I think, you know, I'm, now that I'm older and I'm more inclined to, to surf the way you describe, like Yeah. But it would be silly of me to expect others younger than me and hungrier than me to surf that way is my point. And so, so yeah, I don't disagree with you at all. I think the problem is people don't talk enough in the water. . There's too many surfers nowadays and there's not an, the passive aggressive sort of old school way isn't gonna work. There's just too many surfers for that to work. And,, it's just better to talk to people. If, if someone is, is acting like an idiot in the water, then it's up to one of the elder surfers to say something to them rather than just drop in and threaten to bust their fins out or whatever. I agree with that, but it is also up to the, the beginner surfers and the average surfers to have a little bit of, um, re respect for the history and the way that surf culture did evolve. We can't change that and that some surf breaks, no matter how much you want them to change, they're just unlikely to change. So if you wanna surf there, you just better be looking out for the scraps and working your way up to the point. Whereas there's gonna be other, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there are places in, maybe even in Costa Rica where it's, there's nothing but surf schools and there's nothing but it's your turn. No, you go and polite and long boards and soft. I'm sure there are pl

127 See Feel Do - The 3 Pillars of Good Surfing - (Best of Episode)

Are you truly seeing the wave - or are you missing the subtle signals that could transform your surfing forever? Many surfers hit a performance plateau because they focus only on big maneuvers and ignore the foundational skills that unlock flow, control, and wave mastery. In this “Best of” episode, discover the overlooked mental and physical shifts that elite surfers use to elevate their performance - without needing better waves or a new board.   Learn how to “read” the ocean and see opportunities in every wave, just like world champion Tom Carroll. Discover why the best surfers don’t think balance - they feel it, and how you can train your instincts to surf with more fluidity. Get a simple yet powerful breakdown of how waves and surfboards work, and why leaning - not forcing - is the secret to rail surfing. Hit play now to uncover the three timeless surf insights that will sharpen your focus, deepen your feel, and transform how you approach every session. www.surfmastery.com [https://www.surfmastery.com/]  Quotes from Episodes 2,3 and 14. Music: "make a smile" Anthony Mea