Podcast - SURF MASTERY

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/ab7fcb12-ecd6-44d0-9e31-9656416a6a35/Rob+Case+Surfing+Paddling.png?format=1000w] https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076 https://open.spotify.com/show/1VvhOpHEu31U4gktXJdkQv?si=ZUWd5smuSkaAh-4ukvIP7g https://www.instagram.com/surfmastery/?hl=en https://www.youtube.com/@SurfMastery/videos https://www.facebook.com/surfmasterysurf https://twitter.com/surf_mastery https://www.tiktok.com/@surfmastery Are you wasting energy every time you paddle out — and missing waves because of it? Most surfers spend 99% of their time in the water not actually riding waves. They're paddling, positioning, sitting, or struggling to get back out — and often doing it inefficiently. If you're tired of burning out in the lineup and still not catching the waves you want, this episode is for you. * Discover the three most common ways surfers waste energy — and how to fix them to catch more waves with less effort. * Learn why your pop-up is the most important move in surfing — and how improving it could change everything. * Explore how shifting from a fixed to a growth mindset will fast-track your progression and elevate your surfing experience. Listen now to learn how to become a “lazy surfer” — and start catching more waves with far less effort. Rob’s Website: https://www.surfingpaddling.com [https://www.surfingpaddling.com] EPISODE SUMMARY: In this episode, Michael Frampton welcomes back surf paddling expert Rob Case to dive deep into the often-overlooked side of surfing: everything that happens before you stand up. They explore the massive role paddling technique plays in wave-catching, the evolution of surf coaching, and the mindset shift needed for adult learners to truly progress. Rob discusses insights from his new book, shares practical ways to reduce energy waste in the water, and explains why becoming a "lazy surfer" might be the smartest thing you can do. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, this conversation will change the way you look at the ocean and your time in it. KEY POINTS: * Paddling is Most of Surfing: Rob highlights that around 99% of surfing is not standing on a wave — it’s paddling, positioning, and ocean awareness. * The Three Biggest Energy Wasters: Most surfers waste energy in paddling, wave-catching, and getting back out after a ride. Rob explains how improving technique in each area leads to more waves and less burnout. * Why Pop-Ups Matter Most: The takeoff is surfing’s most dynamic and demanding move. Mastering it is key to consistent, confident wave-riding. * The Art vs. Sport Debate: Surfing is both art and sport. Treating it like an art form invites deeper curiosity and long-term progression. * The Growth Mindset Advantage: Adult learners can progress quickly by being deliberate and focused — and by embracing the role of student. * Becoming a “Lazy Surfer”: Rob’s coaching philosophy is about helping surfers do more with less: catch more waves, waste less energy, and surf with more efficiency and grace. * The Value of Observation & Ocean Reading: Watching the ocean with purpose, understanding swell periods, currents, and timing are vital skills to develop. * Behind the Book: Rob shares the challenges and revelations of writing his new book — and why it’s designed to give every surfer access to paddling mastery, regardless of budget. Transcript: SMP126RobCase Michael Frampton: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps surfers to catch more waves and surf with more speed, style, and grace. Today we have a return guest, uh, as Rob Case. He first appeared back in episode 12 and then again in episode 91, and Rob specializes in surfing, paddling, or paddling for surfing. Now I have just released a course, which is all about what you do or improving what you do between when the surfboard is under your arm and when the surfboard is under your feet, because every other surfing course is all about what do you do when you're standing up. However, 99. Maybe more. 99% of what we do when we are surfing is not actually surfing. It is sitting there looking at the ocean, trying to predict where waves are coming or paddling around trying to catch them. The thing is, what I mentioned in my course I don't specialize in is paddling, which is a lot of that time is spent paddling. , I refer that to Rob, that is Rob's specialty. And, , ideally you can get in front of Rob and do a one-on-one, , in Northern California or get to one of his courses and, , get some hands-on experience if you can't do that. He's got an awesome YouTube channel and his own podcast and he's just released a book. Rob Case: Yeah, that's awesome. Michael Frampton: So you can, you can get into the details of it. Rob, welcome back to the show. Why the book? That's a Rob Case: good, good question. , It's a good sleeping aid. Have you, have you tried that yet? I listened to my own, my own podcast to get to sleep. , Now the book, the book was, I, I wanted it as another avenue for surfers to get the information, but what I realized as I was writing it, and it took several years to finally get it completed, but. As I'm kind of going through it and putting it together, I'm realizing that I can put a lot more detail, as you said, into the book, , than I can into the online course on the videos. So a lot of the things that I was saying to clients when we were working one-on-one and in person or in the small groups, I, I didn't have in the online course. Those little nuances, , of clarification and the book allowed me to have all this time and space to kind of put all that in for those that really wanted that. , So that, that was kind of the main purpose for the book, , was just a, another avenue, but also to allow people that want those nuances that, that, that actually learn better by text,, to, to get that kind of avenue. , And then also, you know, to allow people that can't afford my in-person stuff to get the information anyway, so now I. Nobody really has an excuse not to work on paddling technique. Right. Or to learn about it. Right. , Before it was, I can't afford your in person, which I totally understand. That's, and so I did the online course and okay, that's too expensive. Okay, now you got the book there. There's really nothing. And then I even have free resources like the YouTube and my blog and the podcast. So no excuse. If you really want to improve your paddling technique, and I'll clarify that. I work on paddling technique, not so much fitness. I, I do have fitness, but fitness is more other people's realms. Um, I'm, I'm really focused on the movement and, um, driving that, that, uh, neural pathway in your brain so that you're doing it over and over again without having to think about it as, as you've witnessed and been a part of. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. I'm witnessed and been a part of it in many levels. When a, you know, when a 12-year-old kid on. Shortboard paddles past you and you think that you're a good paddler, and you're like, what is he doing? And it wasn't, I always thought, you know, before I, um, came across your work, I always thought I was just stronger somehow. He surfs more than me. Or, but no, it's all about efficiency and, and, and technique. And interestingly, it's something not a lot of surfers really, really think about. Um, they have the same attitude I used to have before discovering your work. They sort of just dismiss it as, oh, it's something that experienced surfers do or gifted athletes sort of naturally have. But no, you can, uh, you can definitely learn it. And I like the fact that there is a book because. You know, you've, some people learn by reading a book and the book gives you so much room to add more details. , That's how we've learned throughout history a lot of the time is books, you know, videos and stuff are quite, quite new. , And you think of any other individual sport like tennis or golf, there's, there's go on Amazon, there's books galore. Yeah, it's, it's kind of strange. There's not that many books on surfing. I dunno why. Um, I guess surfing's such a new thing and certainly, you know, accepting that you are a surf nerd and you want to really learn that's even newer than surfing itself. You know, even 10 years ago it certainly wasn't cool to have a, a surf coach or to analyze your paddling technique. I think now it's becoming a lot more accepted. , There still is a little bit of that there, but, I mean, I, gosh, I remember watching. Was it, it, I think Olo, when Olo first surfed the box and he openly admitted that he, he had been up since 4:00 AM practicing his popups on his bed. So Really? Yeah. So even the best in the world, they actually, behind the scenes, you'd be surprised how much work they're putting in and how much geeking out that they're doing in order just to get that much better than their competitors. And, , you know, there's no reason why we as surfers just, you know, as recreational surfers, just, I remember going through a phase where I was so, I kind of thought surfing was the selfish pursuit and, you know, why would I, you know, there's, why would I bother putting all that time and effort into it? And then I realized, you know, who cares? It's surfing's my thing. I'm gonna give it everything I got. And, , that stage in my life where I really obsessed about surfing and was, you know, reading books on how to read water and taking fitness courses and doing, spending time, coming to see you and, and watching your content. That obsessed, that period of time where I obsessed over everything surfing. , I never regret that. And it, it's amazing how much better you can become. Rob Case: Yeah, absolutely. I, it's funny you kind of stirred something in my brain why surfing is so late to the game for getting information, for having books, for having coaches and you know, like every other sport like you said, has these things. So is it, is it because we just have never really viewed it as a sport? Or have we never viewed it as a serious sport? Or is it not a sport? You know, those are the debatable questions. I, I think the Olympics really helped quite a bit. 'cause leading up to the acceptance in the Olympics. And even before that, MC Fanning kind of started it all well before that. But the Olympics I think really rocketed coaching to a huge degree. And I get really serious surfers come to me now, and they're, they're very open-minded. And I'm always, I'm always kind of like, okay, well how do I, how skeptical is this person that's, that's always, you know, kind of these old school minded surfers that don't really think that technique is going to change anything. And, uh, they're becoming much more open minded as they walk in the door, as, uh, as opposed to 10 years ago when I started the in-person stuff. So, really interesting that you brought that up. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't, what do you think, do you think it's 'cause of the Olympics? Do you think it's just the evolution of, of the demographic of surfers? So there's a lot new surfers that are older now. They're thinkers. Um, as opposed to when we started it was like, oh, we're just kids. And, you know, the kids really held up the industry, but now not so much. Michael Frampton: I, I think it's, it's more psychological than anything. , And it can often start with how you define surfing. , Like you mentioned, what is it a sport? , I like to define surfing as an art more than anything else. , And you might think, oh, that takes away from training as a sport. Well, actually no, it doesn't because you think of music and if you're into music, then you'd learn music theory and you practice. You learn if you're playing guitar, you learn your scales and your chord shapes and you, you practice your timing with, with a metronome or, and so that you can play. Yeah. Right. You practice your fundamentals, right? Yeah, exactly. Or if you're an artist, you might spend a week doing doism, learning a different style of, or using a different type of paint or a different type of brush. You're not actually creating art per se. You're just learning to use a new technique or, or a new piece of equipment or, or even a new form of art. And you go, a painter might try sculpture for a while and come back to painting. And so I think if we have that attitude as a surfer where it's an art and it gives it a bit more depth, first of all, than it just being a sport or a recreational activity, , I think that helps us to be more fascinated and obsessed and immersed in surfing. And it almost gives yourself permission to, to dive in deeper and think. 'cause I mean, logically think about it, most of the time I don't stand up on my board. Why am I watching all these, why am I watching all these bottom turn and top turn techniques when. I actually just really want to catch more waves. Really? Yeah. Because that's what it's about. So I should probably be better at paddling and better at reading the ocean. , And better at choosing breaks that aren't as crowded and better at choosing the right surfboard for the conditions. Like being a better surfer is, I think the technique of your bottom turn, et cetera, is such a small, small part of it. And I think it's, first of all, it's great that a lot of people are diving into that mm-hmm. And getting better at that stuff. But I think it's, it's often misguided because it's so hard to, to be focused in the moment, to change the way you bottom turn, you've gotta get it's, you've gotta get everything else right first. Yeah. You've gotta be a confident Rob Case: waterman. I tell you guys all the time, like, I have the easy job. I can make somebody take thousands of strokes and I can correct them, you know, within the first five. Whereas a surf coach, you need a designated part on the, on the wave. , The wave needs to be shaped a certain way. They need to be balanced, they need to be of sound consciousness to do something that you've told them to do. There's, like you said, there's all these nuances just to that one thing and everything happens so quickly. How is a surf coach ever able to really get that repetitive motor learning? It's, it's, it's, it's really difficult. It's really, really difficult. So I, I have the easy job and I, I stop when people stand up and then I'm like, I hand it off. I'm like, go, go, go work with a, a great surf coach. But yeah, it is a difficult job. Um, but I, you know, I think on an extension to that is. Surfers that are listening to this, the surfers that come, come to me are, are growth-minded. It, it's, it's like you said, it's like a mindset. You are looking at art versus sport, but I think it's more just almost like a learning mindset. Are you open-minded? Are you, a growth kind of mindset? In which case, yeah, you're gonna get better at really anything you do. , You're gonna try to find resources to get better at those things. Whereas a fixed mindset, they're kind of just happy where they're at. You know, they don't really want change until a, a, something devastating possibly happens. You know, like they get an injury. Yeah. Or. They, they're not able to get up to the feet anymore, or they're not able to catch waves anymore, or, you know, something stirs that there's an event that happens that then stirs them to become more growth minded. Um, and, and I find that, it's funny when I, when I do, I do little trips, um, with clients and they're like, oh man, everybody's so cool on this trip. Like, where do you find all these people? I'm like, I, I don't, they come to me, you know? But I think there's a way in which I share my information that kind of weeds out the fixed minded folks from the growth minded folks. And I think that's one thing I've, I've very happy that I feel like I've designed that and I get the best clients out of it, which is, you know, and they're not just, they're not just great to work with. They're just good people. You know? They're always wanting to learn and they're challenging me all the time, which is fantastic too. So, uh, yeah, it's been a, it's been a fun ride, I think you said. Earlier you're like, wow. I think our first conversation in 2016, I started the in-person in 2015. I started the online and virtual coaching in 2011. So it's been a long time and, and there's been a, a bit of evolution and back then it was really just about helping surfers catch more waves was less effort. That was always the tagline. And then it, it, it evolved into kind of helping them catch waves at that point. 'cause as we've discussed, 90% of the paddling we do is just paddling around. Right. And I, I think within the last. Two years or so, I, I've realized that my overall philosophy is I just want to create lazy surfers, and I, let me explain what I mean by that. But it's basically, I want them to be able to catch the most ways with the least amount of effort. And what I found is that there's an extraordinary amount of energy waste that's happening in the ocean with surfers. And they're, they're really, if you look at it, there's three main areas where surfers. Waste the most energy and it's one is paddling. And a lot of that can be cleaned up through technique first, and then there's also fitness on top of that can help. So that's, that's the number one thing. That's level one, right? That's, that's my level one. But then level two goes into the other two areas and, uh, another area where surfers burn a lot of energy and they don't really have to, they're just inefficient with their energy is wave catching. So you could, you can work really, really hard and not catch the wave. That's the ultimate waste. You could work really, really hard and then go over the falls. That's, you know, it's wave catching and kind of popping up. Both of those are together, you know, standing up. If they're not fluid with that, if they don't have control, they're bored, then they're gonna burn energy 'cause they're gonna end up in the impact zone. You could even see advanced surface that do catch waves, but they're taking 10, 11, 12 strokes to get it. That's ineff inefficient. So something in that process can be improved. So that's the second area where I see just tons of surfers burning a lot of energy. And then the last area that I realized just in the last couple years when I've kind of refined level two is getting out strategy and technique. And it's, some of that's paddling. Yes, but, but the strategy of getting out, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this. Surfer catches first, second wave of the set, gets to the inside, turns around, immediately starts paddling back out. There's still a set coming in, there's still waves coming in, and they're going towards the impact zone. Thinking in their mind that they're going to make it to the last wave and get the last wave of the set. Now you're laughing because you know what, in reality, you know, 99% of the time they do make it out and then the way the ocean goes flat, right? And they're like, oh, thank goodness I made it out. But what an extraordinary amount of wasted energy, you know, after your wave just kind of hang out. Wait, you can duck dive, you can turtle ro, you can sea anchor all these waves with less energy and then wait for the set to pass and then go out, right? Yeah. And that's just, that's just one example of just getting out strategy and technique that there, there's, there's an extraordinary amount of waste that's happening. Uh, and so level, level one is all about that first one technique. And then level two. Now really the main focus, the main goal is saving energy in those other areas. It's, it's wave catching and it's popping up and it's getting out. And, uh, it's been really fun to kind of go down that route with surfers because I start to introduce 'em in level one. And then by the time I get to level two, they're, they're piecing it all together. And now they're like, a lot of 'em are kind of angry. They're like, man, I used to use surfing as like an exercise. Now I am the ultimate lazy surfer and not spending a lot of time, uh, a lot of energy, um, surfing, which, uh, which is really fun. So for me, kind of the end of my journey is once I finish the level two online class, that's kind of my next big project. The book was a huge project for me. And then once the online level two is done, then I'll, I won't stop. I'll just, there's no more growing for me in that respect. And then I'll just kind of figure out what that point, what's, what's the next kind of coaching growth for me. But that's, that's my overall goal. Um. Really just came to me in the process of writing this book and, and conducting a lot of level twos lately. Michael Frampton: Oh cool. Yeah, that's a great tip. Yeah, I didn't even articulate, but I realize I do do that. If I catch the first wave of a set and I want to paddle back out, I don't, I just stay 'cause the wave breaks and it dissipates. You can just kind of stay on the inside and glide over or gently duck dive the white water and all that water's coming in, it's gotta go back out. So the last wave of the set, once I've duck dive that, that's when I put in the paddling effort and you, you're going with the water drawing back out and you probably only have to duck dive the, you know, the, the secondary waves that are in between the main swell sets. Exactly. Rob Case: Yeah. And it's crazy. And it goes back to what you're talking about is, is being obsessed with learning about the ocean. If, if you don't know what's in the water that day, what, what? Types of swells, what periods, what direction you, you're already at a disadvantage because if, if someone listens to this right now and they're like, okay, every time I catch a wave, I'm gonna wait on the inside. But they don't realize it's a short period swell and there's no real break, then what's the strategy? You know? Exactly. You know, like if they're not aware of where the currents are flowing, what's their strategy like, they're just gonna burn energy. Uh, and that I, I like you, I just nerd out on the oceanography side of it and learning more about the ocean. And as experienced surfers, I think you were the one that said it when you took level two with me in the very early days, you were like, yeah, this is great information. It was something that I kind of already knew. An experienced surfer and you were like, I think a lot of experienced surfers know this stuff, but we couldn't connect the why right Now we can connect their why. Like, okay, now I get it, why we would do this. But you ultimately learned it through all the years of learning about the ocean and learning about waves and learning and just getting out there in trial and error, which was really, I remember that you, you telling me that and I was like, oh, that's a Michael Frampton: really, really good point. Mm-hmm. Well, it goes back to what we started the conversation with is if, if you, if you grew up on the east coast of Australia and your dad and your uncle surfed and you've had a surfboard since you were four years old, by the time you are, by the time you are 17. You've got so much experience, you've picked up so much from your elders that you don't even realize and you don't even know what you, so of course you can go to Bali and just get on the tangs and go out and get barreled at double overhead waves, of course, without even thinking. You don't have to nerd out about any of this stuff. But the listeners of this show are most likely didn't surf that much when they were younger, or probably more likely started as as adults. So you've got like 12, 15 years worth of information to try and pack in as an adult with a, a non rubbery body. Yeah, you have to, if you want to get, if you truly really wanna get good at surfing, you have to start getting into some of the weeds and the details of this stuff. Uh, 'cause you didn't have that luxury as a 4-year-old with a, a dad who, who, who surfs living next to the beach. So I think culturally that's, that's part of it. Um, and. It's amazing what you can, when you start breaking it down, it's amazing how fast and quickly you can learn. And once you know what to look for in the ocean, then yeah, you're gonna learn so much faster. That's, I think it's an advantage, like the experience in that, that adult brain, you can learn a lot faster than a kid learns in some ways. Well, Rob Case: when there's, yeah. When there's, explicit instruction, and that's what you and I are guiding more adults with, and that's what the really, the book is. It's funny when I have, uh, parents bring their kind of up and coming competitive kids and they're, you know, they're like 10, 11, and they're like, I really want you to teach my kid about paddling technique. I was like, okay. They'll go through the whole level one course in like 20 minutes. Like they're, they get it like that. Their neuroplasticity is so fluid and I don't need to tell them anything explicit. I just say, all right, get in the pool. Okay. What do you feel? Okay. Straighten that arm out. Okay, do it again. Whereas with an adult, I have to explain, okay, this is, these are the drag forces you're experiencing. This is why we need to do this. And as an adult, we process so many more things, but we learn explicitly versus the implicit learning of a child who can go out and just do trial and error. And that's, even yesterday, I was in the ocean with a client and I said, I said, listen, there's, there's a certain point where you need to be less hesitant to go because you think you're going to fall, and then you need to be less precious with the waves you surf because. You're not going to progress. You need to be a kid sometimes and just try stuff. Right. And as adults, like kids don't care. Like they really don't care if they fall. They're like, Hey, check this out. Boom. And be precious with your strokes and be a little bit more wasteful with the waves that you surf and you'll progress a lot faster that way. And he was like, oh yeah, I think I could be a kid. I was like, I know you can Michael Frampton: be a kid. Mm. That's a good way to put it. Be more, more precious with your strokes. Less precious with your waves. Rob Case: Exactly. It's hard though. It's really hard when you're waiting. Five minutes, 10 minutes. Yeah. A good one. Oh man. Yeah, it's really hard. Even I have trouble with that one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, but I think that to add to that, it's we can be really, as adults, we kids sort of. Yeah. 'cause they don't care. They're not as obsessed with watching the ocean. But I think as adults we can really, like I remember when I first started surfing in the east coast of Australia, and I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge, and you're in a lineup with a lot of good surfers sitting there waiting for a set. And then all of a sudden Nathan Hedge starts paddling like a madman. And he's like, oh, why is he paddling? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming. He saw it before everyone else. Why? Yeah, because he was just sitting, he wasn't just sitting there waiting for this set. He's just scanning that little sliver of ocean looking for the tiniest little bit of detail. So he sees the set coming before anyone else. 'cause he's, 'cause he wants it more than any anyone else. Rob Case: I think they also have, uh, an innate sense of timing and we haven't seen a set in a while. I was talking about this, um, a few days ago where someone was like, if we haven't seen a set in a while, what do you, do you think one might be coming? You know, like, we've been surfing, kind of these inside ones we've been drifting. Do you think we should take a few extra strokes out just in case? And he's like, oh yeah, that's a point. And like almost on cue I it, look, I look like a magician, a set up here. But it was, you know, like you'll sense it too. But his sensitivity is probably heightened, you know, it's, it's, it's like his sensitivity on the board itself through all that experience. Oh, for Michael Frampton: sure. I think that's definitely part of, I, I also think that his. Eye for detail is far more nuanced than he even realizes. Yeah. Do you know like maybe a, a shimmer on some rock out? Because when you're looking at the ocean, it's this tiny little sliver. Yeah. Yeah. Like when we see those pho photographs taken from up high, you know, we can see the lines stacked out the back and the shapes of each set and stuff. And, but we have such a different perspective when we're sitting in the water. But I think great surfers can look at that sliver in a far greater detail without them even realizing. Yeah. And yeah, sometimes it's instinct. They're like, oh, has it been a set in a while? The rhythm of the sets has been like this. I'm gonna paddle out. Or sometimes they see a little, whether it's a glimmer or a rebound of a headland in the distance or, or something, they just, their eye picks that up without them realizing it. They, they just feel like they should paddle out the back. Yeah. So what I always tell people as an adult surfer, you have the ability to, to, to focus on that sliver like a madman. Yes. And that, that's one advantage you have over over kids is like, you have the ability to to really, to focus better. And so when you're surfing, don't just sit out the back waiting for a wave. Focus on the horizon, focus on that sliver of water. A BSI say a b, s always be surfing, always be predicting when the wave is coming, where the next set's gonna break. And it goes back to what you said. You know, if you've, if you've looked at the different, all the, the seven different swells that are in the water on the surf line, on the detailed part of the surf line report and you know there's a secondary and a tertiary swell and you kind of know what to look for if you know what the tide's doing and the way that the rips move at your local beach because you know what to be looking for. You know, the way that a southerly swell refracts off the headland when it's 15 seconds, you know, to be looking for the double ups or the more. You look for, the more you understand that those details exist, the more you can look for them. And I think that helps us to focus more while we're waiting. Rob Case: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Which again comes back to efficiency. 'cause then you know when to paddle. Rob Case: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I, I'm just thinking of these little kids that, you're right, they don't have this focus. They're, they're honestly like within maybe a five meter radius, they're like wave, wave, wave, wave. Right. And it's like a dog looking for a squirrel. It's like squirrel, right? And then they just go and they surf it and they just go and surf it and that's how they learn Super quick. It's spurred a thought in me to that maybe the audience might be helpful, is something you said earlier is, is identifying, okay, where are you at on your journey and finding waves that will help you to that next step, right? So if you're looking for waves that are airwaves. You're really just trying to work on your bottom turn. You're looking for the wrong type of wave, the wrong surf spot, right? And so you're not gonna get the reps that you need for the bottom turn or for the top turn, or for just getting to your feet or just paddling around, um, getting a sense for the wave picking you up. So I, I talk a lot to my clients and I'm sure you talk the same, is like, there are certain conditions that you're, this is your wheelhouse. You're looking for a wave that might give you one or two turns. Do you need to go to all the beautiful point breaks? And battle the crowd and sit and wait for 30 minutes before you even get a chance at maybe getting a sliver of one. No, you can go find something that has maybe one or two turn sections or maybe just a closeout if that's what you're working on, is just getting your feet right and you're going to get way more quality reps in a shorter amount of time than having to deal with it. Now, I always get pushback like, oh, but those waves are so much better. It's like, yeah, I get that, but are you gonna go for, you know, 50 to a hundred meters and not do anything? Like again? Now you're back to not progressing. And so I think for me personally, there are sessions when I'm working on progression and I'm really focused and then there are sessions where I just wanna surf and have fun and just glide. I think we talked about this last time 'cause you talked about your 12 foot glider and, uh. There. I think it depends on how you're feeling, but in terms of progression, you really do wanna align where you're at and where, what's that next step? And that's where you need a coach to tell you, tell you, yeah. That wave that you keep trying to sit at and you're, you know, in Santa Cruz and there's a hundred people on the point and you're waiting your turn for the, the wave of the day, you're missing lots of opportunities, right? Yeah. To get better. And so your, your timeline is gonna be much longer. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, kids that they'll be sitting on the inside or they'll be sitting at a beach break, just a. Goofing around having fun. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Taking everything, Rob Case: yes. Like literally every, we were, I was doing a level two in, uh, in Santa Cruz, and it was in the afternoon, and one of the locals, it was only like five of us at the, at the, the main point. And I was, I was like, this is great. We got, we got our pick the litter, we got sets, we got inside, we got middle, we got tons of reps. And then this one local was like, uhoh school just got out. And I was like, I saw like one or two kids battle out. And I was like, oh, that's not bad. It's not bad. He was like, oh, the surf team's coming. And I was like, all of a sudden, like 30 kids, and I, I'm not even kidding. It was like 30 kids and they took every bump that came through and they dropped in on each other and they were having the best time. And there were a few rippers in the group, but the rest of 'em were just kind of just. Just cruising along and having fun. And you're right, they're just like, Michael Frampton: they're just like, Rob Case: swirl, swirl, swirl, swirl. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I think for adults there's, there's a happy medium. 'cause obviously they've got boundless energy and super quick recovery times. They can wake up the next day and do it all again and Rob Case: do it all again. Yeah. Michael Frampton: So as adults, we wanna look for that efficiency in, and that's to an advantage in some ways. Uh, 'cause we, we have that awareness. , But I mean, it's a great point. If you, if you really, I think the, the popup or the takeoff is surfing's hardest and most important maneuver. Rob Case: Yeah. Michael Frampton: I love that. You can, that maneuver, Rob Case: I tell people all the time, I tell people all the time, it's a maneuver. Yeah. Like, you see very beautiful takeoffs and you see really ugly takeoffs. You see really fast takeoffs. You see really slow takeoffs. And there's, they all have, uh, a nuance to them. And the ones that you see are what we would consider maybe the best quote unquote, um. They're the ones that, um, they have function as well as kind of an art to it, right? Oh, yeah. So that's, I agree with Michael Frampton: you completely, that that one's the most overlooked. It's also the most physically demanding and dynamic maneuver in surfing. I mean, you watch, I mean, someone like Aki exaggerates how little you need to move your body. Watch AKI surf. Don't watch him surf. Watch his, what his body does, he's compressing and extending very little. He moves his arms a little bit, but has just his lean and his subtle twist. The timing doesn't, he barely moves. Yeah. So going from lying down on That's a really good point. Yeah. From lying, lying down on your stomach to getting to your feet. That is the hardest part of surfing. Yeah. The rest of it's all about timing and, and subtlety and that, that's stuff you can, gosh, you can work on a skateboard or you can work on front of a mirror really, if you're, if you're obsessed enough. And that's something I, I recommend doing, but what's the point if you can't read the ocean and paddle efficiently and get the rep Yeah. Get the potential opportunity to do that. Yeah. And, and, and pop up properly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's something you learn that isn't in your YouTube videos whilst you're, um, going through the process of writing your book? Rob Case: , What's not in the, the YouTube or the online course? Michael Frampton: Yeah. Rob Case: Or just in general. , Yeah. Michael Frampton: I'm just wondering if there's any, the book writing details that came out. Book, Rob Case: I think the main thing was making sure, well there was a new technique that I started teaching, , about near the end of completion of the book that I finally was able to kind of just explicitly kind of right out. So there, there were some things that were coming out that were new. And I don't know if you've seen the bibliography. There's a lot of documents back there from what I pull all the information from. And so, , I, I think it was funny that the, the biggest thing I learned was that it's okay to have a version two. Because at this point I was just delaying and procrastinating the release of the book. Like I had, I had written the manuscript years ago, and then I just kept saying to myself, oh, well, I need it to be perfect. I need it to be perfect. Uh, I need to make sure that, you know, all the information's spot on, that the, it's all, you know, we have the references in the back and that I include this in that. And, um, I, I, I hired a professional editor. We went through it two or three times. I've hired a professional illustrator, , you know, and I just kind of kept procrastinating the full release. And I was like, oh, well now I have to format it. Oh, what font should I use? How, how big is the spacing? And I obsessed, I obsessed over this. And, and really all it was was procrastination. And I realized that. You know, I, I got, you know, 3, 4, 5 different author versions of it and I re-read through it and I was like, okay, it's perfect time to release. And I release it and I get the first batch and I find a typo. And I'm like, damn it, are you kidding me? Like, and it, and, and the funny thing, the lesson I learned from that was, you know, it's, , I, I could have, I could, you know, fix it and then reprint. , I can definitely do that, but I'm gonna keep it because I like the, I like the idea that it's I'm human and that it has mistakes and it's okay. It doesn't change the meaning of the paragraph that it's in. It doesn't change the meaning of the book or the, the main content. It's not even in the main content. It's near the fringes of it. Um, but all that procrastination, I did it. It was, and all this worrying really wasn't for anything. You know, it was just a waste of my, um, my own energy. I wasn't being efficient with my energy. But, , yeah, that was probably the biggest thing I learned throughout the whole process is you hear that it's really, really hard. The actual physical and mental writing of the book is not hard. The formatting's not hard. I, the fact that I've never done it before that what was hard about it? It was, it was, you know, self-conscious. It was, . It was scary. It was vulnerable. Now it's in print. Right. For some reason with the videos, even though, yeah, they're, they're recorded and they're published. I could take them down, right? Mm. Now it's in print. Now it's now it's like, feels much more permanent. So I felt this, this need and this responsibility to make it perfect and then at the end, it's not perfect. And I, I find beauty in that and I find like, that's awesome. You know, and, and hopefully, like, hopefully this sparks kind of a fire under some people's bottoms to go and do more research in this area. You know, we, we have some research in paddling. There's some research in technique, the university I've been talking to, and in Australia and in, uh, here in California and in Europe there's some, but there needs to be more, there needs to be a lot more and. If you look at kind of the journey that swim research went through in the sixties, it kind of started out with a coach. A coach that had, was kind of scientifically minded, was like, I'm gonna challenge these, these assumptions we all have, and put a little bit of structure to him and really work on these experiments. Now, he wasn't academically trained to do experiments. Um, he became later on academically trained, but that sparked it all. And then they did a reprint in the nineties. His son actually did a reprint of everything with the new technology and the new research that's been done. But that was the thing that kind of pioneered it was in the sixties and it's still still going on today with new technology, new research. So if you look at, you know, from the sixties all the way to today, that's several decades. You know, we're, we're, we're that swimming, which is heavily covered. Still hasn't really finished, they haven't made it to the finish line of what is 100% true. In fact, fact, they're still tinkering. Hmm. And we're at the beginning of surfing, you know, and it's not just paddling technique, but it's all surfing. Like there should, if, if this can spark a fire under the academics, but to, to, to start doing more and more testing of this. I want them to challenge these things. I want them to academically with good rigor, do these things. And if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong. , I'll do a version two, I'll add their study to the back. Right. That's what this hopefully will spark. I'm crossing my fingers that it does something to get somebody to do something about it. . Because there needs to be more, to your point, like other sports, they have decades. They're decades ahead of us. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. You see that new company with a, they've got a tail pad that's pressure sensitive and has a gyroscope in it. Rob Case: No. Michael Frampton: So they can That's awesome. Yeah. So you can get, um, you know, realtime feedback of what pressure is on the, which part of the tail pad and the board angle. Fantastic. And the board and the board speed. That's fantastic. Yeah. That is it. That's what we need. That's what we want. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. I think they've released it yet. I think it's called Tracks with an X. It popped up on my, on my Instagram. That's great. Just to see what they do with that. Rob Case: Absolutely. And who's gonna get involved in that? Like, you know, I, I, I've been working with a few people that are doing some new technology with video, , AI stuff where they can take, you know, really good surfer, just a video of them and overlay your movement on top of them and really break down all the lidio little nuances like you've talked about the difference between you versus me on the same place on that wave. Um, for example, I think that would. Again, it's more information and then we have to go apply it, Michael Frampton: right? . Oh, is there an ai ver like coach's eye is what? There's this software that's been used for that a lot, but if there's an AI that's, is it AI that's sort of doing it faster? So it's a, Rob Case: it's a camera that actually, , you know, all like Flow State. You have Flow State, at Urban Surf or you know, where, where it, it identifies a surfer just based off of their surfboard or their Yeah. What they're wearing. And then it sorts their videos. . So it does that, but then it tracks every movement of the surfer and it has stock images of the, of a pro surfer on the same wave. Oh, cool. And then it tracks it about the same location. Oh. And then you can see kind of an overlay of one over the other. And you can be like, yeah, see you're way out here on the shoulder, and they're back here in the pocket. Right. And they're turning their shoulder at this point, and you've. Already turned your shoulder or you haven't turned it yet. So stuff like that. And I think that's, that's coming online. I think there's more and more use cases for that. , But yeah, the track pad, I think, I think that's, the camera stuff I think is very flashy. It's very useful in real time, but there still needs to be academic rigor behind it. Right. To to, to really solidify that. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's what everybody should do because there are, there are unique athletes out there that make a certain movement and it is not actually proven scientific. Like Michael Phelps is a very asymmetric swimmer. He breathes, , his strokes are not even, he does one longer stroke than the other. He kind of always does that longer stroke and then a quick stroke, and then longer stroke and quick stroke, and yet he gets some pretty darn good results. Right? Mm. So how can you say that he, he is the absolute best swimmer in the world with the best technique. He's the best swimmer in the world. Yes. But what is the, the technique that can be replicated towards the, the recreational swimmer or the lower age swimmer? Michael Frampton: Well, it's something the human body's not symmetrical as much as we'd like to think it is. It's not, you know, your heart sits further to the left. Your liver's on the right hand side, you have one dom neurologically. You have one hand that's more dominant and stronger as well. And that those could be different sides. You'll have bone length discrepancies. So as much as we strive for symmetry, uh, it's, it's nice to think about and, and aim for, but it's also not possible. So it is, it's dependent. Right. And like you said, with surfing, gosh. This person's height difference and the type of board they're riding is gonna change their, their surfing technique. And of course that their, their technique might be part of their style and that's what's different about them. I think there are certain, there certainly are certain fundamentals, you know, where you place your board that is the most powerful part of the wave and that sort of stuff. Um, yeah, but no, there, there is a lot of room for, for improvement. I think the biggest thing is, is like, it, sometimes it doesn't matter when, at least my experience personally and with other clients, it doesn't matter when and where you're putting your bottom turn. If you are, if you don't even realize how scared you are or how stro, I, I call it trooping. I dunno if you've ever experienced a wave where it was filmed maybe in a, in, it's a, it's a five second wave, let's say, but it felt like it was half a second. And you have the, your memory of it is strobe. Like it was just flashes. Then sometimes when you are surfing and you're in the zone, a five second waves feels like 10 seconds and you knew what your hand was doing. Yeah. Time slowed down. That's to get to that point, I think that, that you'd need a lot of confidence in the water. Rob Case: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And comfort feel, and comfort in the water. Whereas I think even, even subconsciously, we don't realize how scared we are in, in, in the ocean a lot of the times. Rob Case: Yeah. No, I, I, I see that with paddling. Again, I, I kind of stop once they're standing, but you'll, uh, every once in a while I'll see a client that you can definitely tell I have to pull 'em back to the beach and just have a little, you know, real time with them and say, you know, what's going, what's really going on? Because like when I see what's beautiful about when I get to work with someone in person is I get to see them in the pool and I'll, I'll have them go through the pool and I can see. The body movements, the body language that is relaxed, that is comfortable, it's controlled. We put 'em out on the lagoon, a little less controlled. Maybe they tense up, maybe they don't. When this thinking in the ocean, that's a lot of people are, why are you doing the ocean stuff? It's like, well, I want to see how the movement changes once you're in that environment. And it inevitably always changes. And it might not be a comfort thing. It could be they're just distracted with, again, squirrels, they're like, you know, squirreling not thinking about anything else. But yeah, every once in a while I have to pull a a client aside and be like, what's really going on? Like, where's the fear coming from? And their movement vastly changes just from paddling. Oh yeah. Let alone if they're on a wave. Yeah. Again, I miss your Michael Frampton: job. Shame and anxiety comes into play a lot with surfing because it's always done in a public place. Yeah. You can't practice by yourself. And if you can, you prob you probably shouldn't be out there by yourself. It's dangerous. But you know, when you are surfing, you're, there's someone watching. And I think that's the beauty with kids is they don't care. They're just nah, having fun. So their bodies are relaxed and they're, and they're in the, in in the moment. And I think that's one of the hardest parts in surfing to improve is being focused and present in the moment so that you can change your technique and you this, this fear and the shame and there's all sorts of factors that contribute to that. But , back to it's why you Rob Case: say that, you know, I'll bring something up real quick, Mike, sorry to interrupt you, but, um. There's, there's, there's a lot of people watching you in the lineup and there's a lot of judgment. And I think that's where like the shame and the anxiety comes from. But one of the things that I've realized is that they're looking at you just because of, , personal selfish reasons. They just want to see if they can get more waves for themselves. They don't really care about you and what you're doing. They just want more waves. Exactly. And so I started looking at it that way and I'm like, oh, well they don't really care if I have really good style or bad sell. They're just judging me if they can get waves exactly from me. And that's it. That's it. That's, that's where it ends. That's where their thought ends. Like they're not breaking down every little thing. And you know, when people get anxiety about like, oh, you know, they saw me botch that turns like they didn't really care. Right. They didn't care about any of that. They just wanted to know if they were gonna drop in on you or not. That's it. Michael Frampton: Yep. That is it. Like we've all got a friend who you've been surfing with and you've seen them not surf to their potential. Did it matter? Did you not be friends with them? Did you care? Right. Did you No, it's, no one actually cares. It is all in our head. It's like other, we put our, our judgment of what other pe of the way other people are judging us. Like it's all in our head. Even what? Yes. And you, you're just imagining what they're judging. Yeah. But in reality, yeah. They're just wondering. They're just hoping you fall off so they can take the wave. They don't care about how you're surfing or anything like that. Rob Case: Absolutely. Michael Frampton: And the irony is, you know, it, it is a, there is a competence hierarchy in surfing, so the best surfers tend to get the best waves. Or not even, it's not even that is it. It's the best. It's the best at catching and reading the ocean that get the most waves because Rob Case: you, well, and then they, they, they get reinforced when they surf the wave. Well, everyone's like, oh, well th that was really cool. I wanna watch them again, or I'm gonna let them have the next one because kind of surf is, I don't wanna waste it. Right. I've seen that as well. Michael Frampton: Yeah. But that it, you, if you define surfing it well, not, it doesn't have to be ripping or shredding. It could be you're just doing some nice smooth Yeah, nice smooth turns in rhythm with the ocean. That's still, that's still good surfing. And that's a lot of what I've been talking about recently is like, well, yeah, in order to enjoy surfing properly, you need to define what good surfing means to you. Maybe it is just. Standing there and doing some little turns in rhythm with the wave and having a relaxed body. 'cause that's still really good surfing. You don't have to go there out there on a shortboard and try and pretend that you are, uh, in a competition that's such a small, small and that tends to frustrate a lot of people. Whereas, you know, I prefer to watch Torin Martin or Devin Howard Surf Surf nowadays. Mm-hmm. Seems more relatable, Rob Case: kind of. Yeah. You said something earlier about how like the pros are constantly trying to improve. , The pros are just as insecure as we are, but just on a different level. Yeah. , It's, it's crazy how the more I get to work with them. The more you realize they're just like us in terms of that insecurity, and you're sitting there going, man, you shred. You are amazing surfer. Don't, why are you stressing this much? Oh, that guy's so much better than me. Why do you think he's better than me? Oh, because he is a better paddler than me. I was like, hold on a second. You're associating his paddling with his surfing now. Like, yeah. You know, those are not, they're mutually exclusive. He could be a really good paddler and not a good surfer, not as good as you, but at that elite level, at that 1% level, that that could make all the difference. And so that's. It's interesting you brought that up. And I just wanted the audience to know that these pros and these good surfers, they're just as insecure as we are, just on a different level. Michael Frampton: And they also Yeah, that's a good point. But it's more nuanced because their insecurity and, and all that stuff, it remains outside of them surfing a wave. 'cause when they're on the wave, they're present and they're surfing the wave. Mm-hmm. Now they might go back and watch the footage and go, oh fuck, I, I need to do, I need to just like Rob Case: us. Yeah. And, Michael Frampton: and they'll put the time in outside of surfing and they'll trust that the, the work they've put in outside of surfing a wave will translate. But when they're on the wave, they're present. And when they're surfing, they've, they've forgot about that wave. It doesn't matter. I'll, I'll work on it outside of, or I like the, the analogy of the musician, when you're playing in a band with your friends, you're listening to the drummer and you're trying to. Be better at the song. As soon as you start thinking, oh, am I in time? Am I doing this right? Well, there's nothing you can do about it, right? You, you're playing the song together. You might as well focus and be the best you can in that moment. And if you think you need to be better, well you go, go home and practice. Go away and practice. So I think good professionals in any, whether it's music or surfing or any sport, they have the ability to separate those things. They don't let that anxiety and that self doubt creep into their actual performances and their experience. They work on that outside of that. Whereas I, I think that's a big part of what separates the, the good from the great is sometimes we let that stuff creep into our actual surfing experiences and we are worried about what people look or how we are looking when we're actually surfing the wave. And then the opposite of a flow state happens, time seems to speed up and we get that trooping effect. Rob Case: Is the ultimate kind of present state when you do it in that flow state. And I, I, I always assimilate like Steph Curry, 'cause he's so big here, he's not thinking about his shot when he throws it up and he immediately forgets about a miss or a make, and the very next moment he's off to the next thing. And then like I, we've been watching a lot of NBA the last few years and when you see a player really get into a kind of a funk, they have, they're no longer in that moment anymore. They're thinking about those little things in the moment and they're not going back and just relying, like you said, relying upon the training outside of it. But the difference is, and I use this analogy a lot with people, Steph Curry can, can, after a game, if he had a bad free throw game, he can go and shoot free throws over and over and over again and really practice, practice, practice. Tough for us to, to shoot free throws on a surfboard, uh, metaphorically speaking. Yeah. The same section over and over again. And that's where wave pools, I think help a bit. There's at least some sense of repetition in the waves, so you can do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. Um, Michael Frampton: well, you also, you have to be a bit, and you used have, you also have to be a bit more creative. You know, there's plenty of dry land training, like, I mean, that's what on my website, there's a free PDF where we break down with here's what a popup is. Here's how you practice it in slow motion forwards and backwards. I've got videos and all that stuff so you can get creative and practice your, your popup technique, the mobility of it, the strength of it, the control of it, where your eyes are looking the whole way through it, that sort of stuff. You can practice that on dry land. You can get a skateboard and practice some of the surfing techniques. You can join Brad Acks wave key thing. You can read Rob Case's book on surfing paddling and watch all of his surfing videos in order to understand what is efficient paddling, what is, what are, what are some hydrodynamic principles and all of that stuff. I think so we can, there's so much out there that we can look at outside of our surfing time. Um, yeah, and that comes back to something that I, when I first started this podcast, I was obsessed with surfing and that those years. That's what I was doing. I was watching videos, I was learning about stuff. I was skateboarding when, when the waves were flat. I was, so yeah, we, we don't get to practice, um, on a wave that much. Or like you said, I mean wave pools are changing that somewhat. But that's expensive. But there's so much else we can do. Yeah. We've been able to, we have to get Rob Case: creative, like you said, we had to get creative over the years. 'cause that's also the uniqueness of surfing is that every wave is unique. It is a one, you know, that one moment in time will not happen again on that wave, in that exact place. Even in a wave pool, all the waves are nuanced, a little bit different. Right. So it's so unique. And that's what we love about surfing as well. Exactly. That's why it's the greatest teacher of being in the present. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think because it's so unique and rare, that's what makes it special. But I think because of that reason, all that work that you put in. To finally get there makes all, all the difference. And then you feel confident to book a trip to the tropics with, you know, 18 second period swells. 'cause you're confident paddler and you've done your underwater training and you, you're strong and you're fit. And, uh, you know, this, I it's so exciting. Surfing is, uh, you can, I mean, even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better, right? This, Rob Case: yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Michael Frampton: They still wanna improve. There is, there is no, there's no ceiling. Yeah. Surfing. There's Rob Case: perfect, there's no perfect in surfing. Michael Frampton: No, not at all., Rob, what's the, what's your website? Rob Case: Surfing paddling.com. Pretty simple. Just remember the ING after surfing. Yep. Surfing petman.com. Okay, great. And that's where, that's where people can get, you know, access to the book. With the book. I have, , there's a link on there if you sign up through that link, you get three free videos that help illustrate some of the principles that I outlined in the book. , And then later on I send you a little discount code for the online course that helps further, you know, connect the words to visuals, , if you can't come work with me here or wherever I end up in the world. But yeah, lots of, lots of resources at the website. That's the main place to get it. Michael Frampton: Yep. Okay. Awesome. , Listeners, if you want to to learn, , the audio version of some of the details of paddling technique, you can go back to episode 12 of this podcast, our original episode, and you can go to Rob's YouTube channel as well. And of course surfing paddling.com for everything else. There will be links to that in the show notes. And, , Rob, thank you so much for your time. It was great talking with you, Mike. Appreciate it. Alright. Be well buddy. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Struggling to stand up quickly and smoothly on your surfboard? Your popup might be the one skill holding your surfing back. The popup—your transition from paddling to riding—is the hardest maneuver in surfing and the foundation of every great ride. If yours is slow, clumsy, or inconsistent, it’s costing you waves, confidence, and how others see you in the lineup. But with the right approach, you can build a fast, stable popup even if you started surfing later in life. * Learn why a smooth, athletic popup sets the tone for your entire ride. * Discover dry-land exercises that develop the exact strength, mobility, and control needed for a flawless takeoff. * Get a step-by-step reverse training method to make your popup faster, more stable, and more consistent. Press play now to unlock the techniques and training drills that will transform your popup—and every wave you catch. Summary: Your popup is the foundation of every great ride—and one of the hardest skills to master in surfing. In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, host Michael Frampton breaks down why the popup is so critical, what’s really happening during the movement, and how to train it effectively on land. You’ll learn the common mistakes that slow surfers down, how to build the strength and mobility needed for a lightning-fast takeoff, and the reverse training method that can transform your consistency in the water. Whether you’re a late starter or looking to sharpen your fundamentals, these practical drills will help you catch more waves and surf with greater confidence. Transcript: Michael Frampton: Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves and to surf with more speed, style, grace. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today we are talking about the popup, AKA, the takeoff. It is the hardest maneuver in surfing. And it's the one thing in surfing that demands the most athleticism. Going from lying prone to getting to your feet without changing the way that the board moves through the water, or losing sight of the way the wave is breaking. That is hard. It takes a lot of athleticism to do that. And your popup isn't just about getting to your feet, it's also your entry into the wave. If it's slow or unstable, everything after that suffers. It's kind of like singing a song. You've got to hit that first note. Now, if your popup feels slow or clumsy or inconsistent, not only is it costing you waves, it's costing your perception in the lineup. Are you a competent surfer that doesn't waste waves? Or are you looked at as a kook? Now all good surfers have a good popup. I remember my first filmed surf coaching session, and that was the first thing we talked about was my popup. And until I saw the footage and spoke with the surf coach after, I didn't realize how bad mine was or. Really what a good one look like. I'm so glad that that particular surf coach picked it up so early on and after that, 'cause my background is in personal training and and and movement development. I spent hours in the gym after that developing the strength and mobility to be able to do a fast and smooth popup on dry land. And that is the one thing that has changed my surfing the most. Maybe aside from reading the ocean better. That pop up getting that. It just does wonders for your confidence 'cause getting to your feet fast and smooth. If you can do that, you have so much more. Trust in yourself to paddle into waves and to get to your feet with good timing. Getting your front leg underneath your chest and transferring that body weight from your ribs to your hands to your front foot, whilst still looking at the wave and keeping the board planing through the water at. With without bouncing or wobbling. It's really, really hard to do, and it's a very specific movement skill that that needs to be developed. Now. Most great surfers started very young and their bodies could do it when they were young, and as they grew they sort of maintained that skill. But I, like many of other people out there, started late in life. I was already fully grown before I started surfing, and I had to develop that movement skill. I've also trained a lot of adult beginners to develop that movement skill on dry land, and I cannot stress how important it is. The good news is that you can develop a good popup on dry land. It's not easy, but it is simple. How do you do that? Let's start by understanding a little bit more about what the popup is. When you're surfing, you are, you're paddling, so most of your body weight is going through the center of the board through your chest. Now, as you feel the wave start to pick you up and and your board speed change, then you transfer that body weight from your chest to your hands and then onto your front foot. Now it's a little more nuanced than that, but that's basically what it is. How do we train this? Or more specifically, how do we develop the ability to do this movement with control and agility? I would start by lying on the floor and lie down on your stomach as if you're paddling a surfboard, most of your body weight going through your ribs, and then bring your hands close to your chest and start to do a pushup. And then as you get to the top of the pushup, you bring your front leg forward so that your foot is in between your hands and you transfer the body weight. From your hands into your front foot. This is the point where most people get caught out. They simply cannot do it because they don't have the strength and mobility. There's not enough room. For that leg to fit into that space, that distance between your chest and your hands or the floor, if there's not enough room for your leg to fit there. And what you'll have to do is push hard and fast off the floor. Then your hands leave the floor, and that leg lands in between your hands, which was. The mistake that a lot of people do on a surfboard. So there's a split second or even longer, where the center of the surfboard isn't controlled by you. The best way to develop the movement is actually in reverse. So if you think of another exercise like, like a chin up, the best way to develop strength for a chin up if you can't do one, is to do it eccentrically or in reverse. You hold yourself at the top of the chin up and let yourself down really slowly. So the exercise that I recommend for improving your. Popup here is actually to do it in reverse. So you start by standing in your surf stance, you transfer the body weight all the way to your front foot, and then you slowly drop your hands down next to the front foot and slowly begin to transfer all your body weight from your foot into your hands, keeping that distance between your chest and the floor as big as possible, ideally, so you can actually lift the foot up off the floor so all your body weight is in your hands. But the foot remains in the same place. And then slowly take your foot back into the pushup position, and then lower yourself down into the bottom of a pushup where you're in that prone paddling position. The goal is to be able to transfer your body weight from your front foot, to your hands, to your chest, in a nice, smooth, slow, and controlled way. There is a free PDF on the homepage of surf mastery.com, called the five Best Exercises for Surfing, which goes into detail on this particular exercise as well as some other ones that compliment it. So go ahead and have a look at that. And on that note, do you know what's even harder is getting to the point where you actually need to do a popup. So reading the ocean, choosing the right waves, predicting the. Where waves are going to break and reading how the water's moving, and then paddling into the wave, all that stuff that happens before you actually do the popup, which is about 99% of your time in the water. That's actually the hardest part in surfing, and it's also what my course is all about. I have released a mini course that teaches all of that stuff. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? The 99% of surfing that is done before we stand up. I have a course that goes into the details of all of that stuff, including exercises to, to complement the popup and also your standing position, which is essentially the finishing position of your popup. Most other courses out there are focused on what do you do once you're standing up? Well. Let's break it down on how to get there. Go to the surf mastery.com homepage and you can go ahead and check out more details on that course, and of course, jump on board. This is basically the course that I wish I had when I started surfing. Thanks for tuning into the podcast. Until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/e14989fa-50a1-4086-8116-64339222dc32/Devon+Howard+Surfing+sport+or+art.png?format=1000w] Is surfing a sport, an art, or something in between - and does it really matter? If you've ever felt pressure to "perform" in the water or questioned your progress as a surfer, this episode will shift your mindset. Michael Frampton and Devon Howard unpack how redefining surfing as an art form - not just a competitive sport, it can transform both your approach and enjoyment, whether you're a beginner or a seasoned longboarder. * Discover why kids often learn to surf faster and more fearlessly than adults - and what that means for your own surfing journey. * Learn how to embrace surfing as a personal expression, tapping into flow states and style without the stress of performance. * Get practical tips on wave selection, lineup strategy, and choosing the right longboard or mid-length for your body and goals. Tap into the deeper meaning of surfing and learn how shifting your mindset from sport to art can unlock more joy and progress - listen now. Key Points: * Reading Waves & Lineup Tactics: Devon shares his triangulation method for better positioning and wave-catching efficiency - plus tips for navigating crowded breaks. * Nose Riding Fundamentals: Understand why board length and positioning are crucial, and get clear size guidelines based on your height and weight. * Board Selection Wisdom: From longboards to mid-lengths, discover how design choices impact both performance and style - and why collaboration with shapers like Wayne Rich matters. * Surf Philosophy: Explore the tension between competition and creativity, and how thinking of surfing as dance, art, or even martial art can transform your surfing mindset. Check out this article: https://www.theinertia.com/surf/surfing-art-sport-debate/ [https://www.theinertia.com/surf/surfing-art-sport-debate/] https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076 https://open.spotify.com/show/1VvhOpHEu31U4gktXJdkQv?si=ZUWd5smuSkaAh-4ukvIP7g https://www.instagram.com/surfmastery/?hl=en https://www.youtube.com/@SurfMastery/videos https://www.facebook.com/surfmasterysurf https://twitter.com/surf_mastery https://www.tiktok.com/@surfmastery p.s. DM Devon on Instagram about a discount code for Channel Island’s accessories; leg ropes, tail pads and board bags. Transcript: 124 Devon Howard Michael Frampton: …they're mad on football. So it's winter here in New Zealand, so it's just football, football, football. Once the football season finishes and the, and the water gets warmer, we'll get back into surfing. I got the kids in swimming lessons every week, so just building their swimming fitness up. Devon Howard: Yeah, our kids are swimming now. They're pretty young, but we have a pool nearby and to get 'em acquainted with the ocean, we've been getting 'em in swimming lessons just 'cause it's, the water's a little chilly here as you, as you know. So getting really young kids psyched on low 60 Fahrenheit water is rough. Oh yeah. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Swimming's important. Swimming's you, you, I mean, the confidence in the water, right? Is, yeah. Michael Frampton: The biggest thing. And, and one thing that surprised me, like my kids, we spend a lot of time at the beach, , in the summertime and just their level of play, they don't care. , They started off just messing around in the shore break and then with a bodyboard, and then they jump on the front of my board and there was no pressure from me. It was just like, we're at the beach, you guys do what you want. And then naturally they're like, oh, I wanna try your board dad. And now they're all surfing. That's great. And, and they naturally, one of them in particular is like obsessed with it and. But they don't care. It's like for, for them, surfing is not a sport at all. There's no, there's no pressure on performance, anything like that. Right. And I think that's why they, they learn so well and why they sort of have no, there's no fear or shame or anxiety based around how they look in the water or anything. It's just pure fun. And two things surprised me on that is like a, is how long it takes to learn. , I've been doing this with them, like my 13-year-old, he's only really just starting to sort of get surfing, like starting to sort of turn up and down on the wave face. And we've been doing that since he was four. You know, obviously there's far more gifted kids that pick it up really quick and, you know, the natural athletes and their obsessed parents and you know, some kids are competing once they're 11. But I think for most kids it's, it's takes so long to learn surfing. And I think just knowing that. Takes a lot of, should take a lot of pressure off the adult learner who's listening to this. Right? Michael Frampton: It's like, give yourself a break, man. It takes a long time to learn surfing. And second of all, the fastest and best way to learn surfing is to kind of approach it like a kid in a way. And Sure, my theory is that part of that is, don't think of it as a sport per se. Think of it as more of like an art or a lifestyle . Right. What are your thoughts on, on surfing in that regards? Is it a sport, is it an art? Does it matter? Devon Howard: I don't, I've never thought of it as a sport, even though I, ironically, I worked for a sports league for a while at the World Surf League. You can't give a simple answer to that because I think some aspects of surfing has become sport. , If you go, if we tune into the World Surf League later this week, they'll be at Jefferies Bay. The things that those surfers are doing, I think that's sport. I mean, it's, it's high level athleticism, , but it's mixed with art. , In dance, which is an interesting thing. I suppose in some ways skateboarding is, you know, skateboarders have they really value style in their sport? I think that, I think skateboarders do call it a sport. But these conversations always are fraught with pitfalls because I'm, I'm not a, you know, my expertise isn't philosophy. I'm, I'm sure a really great thinker could pick this thing apart, but from my simple look at it, I always have felt surfing is a, it's just a personal expression and it, it leans more toward art. It leans more toward dance. I know that sounds cheesy for some folks, but, , the type of surfing that interests me and I pursuing a lot of my friends do, I, I think it is not really sport. Michael Frampton: , I, I agree with that a hundred percent. I would go further and argue that even in the WSL competition, I think most of the, the sport and air quotes is around the tactics and getting the waves. But once the surfers on the wave, the ones who get scored the most, are the most artistic. Mm-hmm. You know, like whether you watch John John with or without a jersey, he's, it's still very great. He's still dancing with the ocean. Yeah. Devon Howard: Yeah. And, and it is creative and I think because it's spontaneous, I guess other sports are spontaneous, you know, like a baseball game, any kind of balls comes flying at you, you have to react to it. There's not an exact plan, but you have practiced, um, a lot to react to that and to physically grab something where a surfboard, you have this other, you are catching something, you're catching the, the wave that's like catching a bulb. But then you've got this other dimension where now you have the, it's a cliche, but the paintbrush. Um, and I, a lot of these surfers don't know what they're gonna do when they get to their feet. I don't, I don't know if you do, I mean, you kind of have things that you are in your bag of tricks or your repertoire that you lean on, but you don't always know you. There's a lot of. Spontaneous react reaction to what's happening. So I think that's what art is. You know, if you sit, I used to draw a lot when I was younger, you know, you sit down and yeah, maybe you kind of have a game plan, but if, unless you're copying something, like you're looking at a still like a, you know, model or a landscape, I suppose you're, you know, you're copying that. But if you are sitting down and not looking at anything and just going off peer feeling with no plan, um, that's artistry. And I, I, I think surfing's that way for a lot of people. For some people it's just survival. They're not, they're not really planning anything out. If you're newer to surfing, you're just like, get to your feet, make the drop, get to the channel, do it over again. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think a lot of. Things are like that, like surfing. Definitely one that sort of crosses the border between sport and art. I mean, you think of a a, an Olympic competition, gymnastics, right? It's gymnastics is essentially an art, unless even the judging itself is quite subjective. No. Mm-hmm. A running race who finishes first? I mean, that's very objective. It's there's, you know, right. That's definitely a sport. And then even like a, a football game, who scores, who wins at the end? It's the black, it's pretty black and white. However, you might argue that Messi or Ronaldo, the way that they play with the ball is an art form. The way that they probably draw energy from the audience and they like their, show me that it's a performance art for them. And anyone who's, you know, followed those great athletes would certainly describe the way they move is, is very artistic and the way they play the game. Um, right. I actually quite like to ask whether their perception of the game is more artistic as well. 'cause I, 'cause that's where I'm sort of coming from here is like the, the overarching question is why does it matter if it's a sporter or not? Like who cares? Let's just go surfing. Well, I think for, for a lot of people, especially me, sport is often defined and I grew up playing sport, but it was always competitive sport. So the definition of sport for me has an element of competitiveness. Even though the Oxford dictionary definition of it doesn't include that, for me it's sort of always think of sport as something that's competitive. Whether that's an individualistic sport where you might be just competing against yourself when you're practicing or whatever. But when, when you approach surfing or anything with an artistic perspective, then it becomes, no, this is creative. And you know, instead of three, instead of three to the beach. Because I used to think of surfing, like even though I wasn't in a competition, I used to think of surfing as I wanna rip the wave and three to the beach and sort of had these WSL speed power flow sort of outside influences on the way I should surf. And you're watching surfing videos and you're surfing the latest shortboard and it was very much a sporting activity. And then when I sort of changed my perspective and thought of it, no, it's an art, it's for me, it's just becoming one with the wave and approached it. Yeah. From a more artistic perspective, I think a couple of things happened. I, I just enjoyed it more. There was less pressure. Yeah. Actually started becoming more inflow and actually surfing with the wave better. Devon Howard: Yeah. And it's funny, if you were to open up Surf magazine from, I don't know, 1966 or seven, the same exact conversations were happening because I might be misquoting 'em, but I believe it was Nat Young. At some point, you know, he and the crew, a lot of crew were pulling back from competition and, , they were like, you look at the film evolution and, and that sort of late sixties period they were going to the farm and they were pulling back from putting the jersey on and having these discussions, you know, is pursuing and pushing, surfing in as a competitive sport, a mistake. Are we forcing something upon, uh, a pursuit that's more akin to a performance art? I believe, I believe that's what he called it, was performance art, which would be closer to traditional dance. , You know, because at that time, let's just say late sixties, early seventies, the, the equipment. Hadn't gone anywhere near what it is now. I mean, sure. In cartoons and dreams, they were imagining, um, flying through the air. I'm sure people were, but it was, it wouldn't, that wasn't happening until, uh, late seventies, early eighties where people started like getting really above the lip and then leaving, uh, and taking orbit. Uh, so you can really just think about it as, um, yeah, performance art and um, and then competitive surfing. Uh, and, and the sport of surfing really, um, disappeared for a number of years. Through the early seventies into the mid seventies. By and large, the majority of surfing world wasn't participating in it. You look at surf magazines, they weren't pushing it super hard, but in the mid seventies, the board started getting. More, um, performance focused. And you could argue what came first, you know, was it the competition that drew drove design, which, um, you know, increased the performance of the boards. 'cause in the mid seventies, there's shrinking the boards from those brewer single fin shapes, which were pretty limiting. Um, people were riding eggs in the early seventies. Those were actually a lot more maneuverable than the Dick Brewer style boards that were popular because of Jerry Lopez. Jerry Lopez was God. And everyone wanted to surf like Jerry, even if it was waist high, wherever you were, it could be waist high Malibu. And people were riding seven foot Lopez guns, which was absurd. Hmm. And so everything was style focused. It was still for sure art., But I think there was a fork in the road, so to speak, um, by mid to late seventies. Professional, you know, professional surfing was becoming a thing. The bronzed, Aussies, Sean Thompson, every, you know, we don't have to give a history lesson here, but astute listeners know that story. And so surf brands are emerging and they're trying to sell product. And they sort of aligned themselves behind these elite quote, you know, surfer athletes and the type of surfing they were doing. You know, Shane Haran, you can go down the list of people. And then eventually Tom Kern, Martin Potter, Barton Lynch, they were getting in as many maneuvers as they could because they were being judged in a competition. They were trying to win something. It was a subjectified sport, but it was still subjective. So it was always, no one was ever totally happy, but it was still being pushed toward a sport. And to get better, to win, to be a champion, you had to keep pushing performance more maneuvers, more radical. Then you had the other people who said the hell with that, that that is counter to what they believed in surfing. And that would be your, um, Jim Banks. It would be the Wayne Lynch. It would be these sort of people that really stayed far from competition, pursued surf travel, and they kept that idea of it being an art alive. And like we're still having those discussions. We still, you know, on one side of things, now we have Michael February for example, and there's a whole list of people. Um, although even to like, , Brendan Marson, Margo who's like my age in his early fifties, credible surfer. There's nothing on that side of things that are. Remotely related to competition. And I think everybody associates what they are doing at purely as art. I don't think anyone I, I'd be happy to hear who thinks that is sport. And then we go back to our WSL example, you've got the jersey, you've got Jack Robinson, Alianca, you, you know, go down the whole list of people and that's what feels like sport to me. So it's interesting that we have two sides of it. And then ultimately whoever's listening or whoever's surfing and they, they sort of make a choice. And I don't know, maybe the, is there a hybrid version of that? What, what would the hybrid be? I, I don't even know what you would call that, but, Michael Frampton: I guess it depends on, I, I just think surfing is a sport for a very small percentage of surfers. It's the competitive ones. And then ironically, when they're surfing outside of competition and even when they're on a wave in their competition, it's still very much artistic. And like you said, I think a performance art is a great definition. And Kelly Slater defined, I've heard him define surfing as a martial art, is simply because in martial arts you are playing with an outside force, , and in surfing as a performance art, but at the same time, you're also, you, you want to get as close to the most powerful part of the wave as well, so, right. And in waves of consequence, at least you are, you're messing with danger, you know? Devon Howard: Well, yeah. And I, I don't know, I don't have the definition of martial arts in front of me, but did it, does it go on, is there any other part of that where it involves like inflicting pain or damage because, uh, one side of surfing. In the eighties when I was growing up, you wanted to rip and lacerate and destroy the wave, which is really funny. Yeah. I think Devon Howard: Brad Gerlach's talked about this before. I feel like I've heard him mention this and how the, that's one way to look at it. And the other is to have the surfing complement the, the wave. It's not to, to take away from it or to destroy it, like going off the bottom and then r you know, Hmm. Taking the board so that you're throwing as much spray in the air. It could be like a I'm smashing that wave. I'm ripping, I'm tearing, I'm shrouding las. Yeah. Lacerating And where, go back to Michael February or Margot or any of those sorts of, , rastovich. They are, there's a complimentary nature of the lines they choose and you never feel like they're destroying something or ripping it. I'm not, I'm not here to say what's right or wrong. It's just interesting. Hmm. Devon Howard: Uh, 'cause you, I never thought about martial arts, so I'm just kind of thinking that through out. Um, 'cause there are types of martial arts that are more in, like, I assume Tai Chi is a type of martial arts. I, I think pretty sure it is. But that's just like this beautiful movement. Kung fu has beautiful movement. Um, but you use that outsource outside force of nature to technically to defend yourself. Um, I guess if you're at, uh, ch pu, I don't know how to pronounce that. Everyone pronounces a different pu, um, that could kill you. Oh yeah. Pipeline. Michael Frampton: Oof. Devon Howard: Scary stuff. Michael Frampton: Yeah. But its intention is not to, whereas in martial arts, if you're in a fight, someone's intention is to hurt you. Although, you know, in martial arts, when you, when you are practicing martial arts in a dojo with, with friends, the intention isn't to hurt at all. It's to practice the art and to learn to flow with, you know, but then you, when you turn martial arts into a competition, say judo in the Olympic judo, yeah. Other guys maybe not trying to literally break your arm, but he wants to win. He wants to, you know, hurting you kind of part of that. So I think there's a sort of a subtle difference there between you sparring, sparring with a friend in order to become better so that you can defend yourself in a bad situation or you're in a judo competition, you wanna air quotes, kill the other person, Devon Howard: right? Michael Frampton: Yeah. But I get, and I guess you've got different approaches. I mean, you think of Pancho Sullivan's very much ripping and shredding the wave and you know, fast changes of direction and at the apex of the curve, which throws a lot of spray. But then you also look at Rob Machado and Smooth as you, like fast. Yeah. But he also throws a hell of a lot of spray and you could argue that he's ripping the wave. Yeah. But he's doing it in a graceful way maybe. Devon Howard: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, I, I agree. And a lot of, um, I dunno Devon Howard: if a lot of times, but I'll, I'll often hear people describe, , maybe we talked about this before, but that, that idea of that surfer stylish, did we talk about that before? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Stylish style. Yep. It, it belies the, the rip actual ripping going on, you know, because sometimes that. Low bottom turn or that really coiled up cutback that's really smooth and flowing. Yeah. It is a type of ripping and it is pretty difficult to do. Um, but there's, you're still leaning toward artistry over sport of, i know when I was at the World Surf League, especially with long 'cause I was there to work on longboard surfing, but I feel like longboard surfing can sometimes be more challenging to, to be a sport because it's a lot of this movement up and down the board. And since it, you know, through like the Joel tutoring influence and, and cultural influences, it started leaning more toward a traditional long board judging criteria. It. I, I would, I would have this conversation in my head like, are we at odds with ourself? Like we're trying to judge this thing. Um, we're trying to make as objective as possible, but it's, it's impossible because you, one judge can view somebody 'cause styles in the criteria where in short performance shortboarding, it's not in the criteria. Hmm. Devon Howard: It, it can create some interesting challenges. Like it's not easily identified as a sport. So I, I tried to explain to the judges, um, I wasn't a judge, but I was just sort of leading the whole crew and giving guidance on how are we gonna make this interesting? How are we gonna judge it as fair as possible? And I would use, , dance competitions as, um, as sort of a guideline. And I think everyone agrees that like those beautiful dancers doing tango. Salsa you named the dance like that is, that is for sure art. I mean, it's just incredible form and beauty and you know, they're throwing numbers out on that and it's, it's all subjective. So there it was, it was always this kind of, uh, it was this difficult thing of, , are we judging a sport? Are we judging performance art? And it was helpful for judges that were shortboard judges that didn't have a lot of experience with longboard surfing to step back and see it less as a competitive sport because it's pretty straight, it's a bit more straightforward with shortboarding, there still is a subjective nature to it, but when you don't have to lean on style, it's not written in the book. It, I'm sure some judges, um, factor style in, but they're, they're going above and beyond what's in the parameters of the rule book. So it was just an interesting, , observation and, and in the end I think we got there by having those conversations about being open to this being leaning more toward art, which in, in, in we're a sports league. We were at a sports league. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's a good conversation to have. 'cause it's important. Is it, there are a lot of similarities with dance. You know, like if you're judging a tango competition while the music they're playing is apt, first of all, it would, it would look strange if they were dancing to heavy metal. It wouldn't be appropriate the, the what they're wearing. Right? And then that in terms of them being stylish, their movements are smooth, controlled, and in time with the other person and the music. Yeah, the, the, Devon Howard: it's the, the style a lot of times is the balance of form with the movement so that the form is never lack of martial art. It's never working against the movement. You know, you can, you, you can't imagine a, a black belt in any martial art where their arms are like going the wrong way. It's just not, it would be really awkward looking. And it's, it's the same with surfing, you know. And so the, the form, the function will follow the form and if they have a really good form, um, the surfing will will a lot of times be beautiful, where a lot, I, I feel like two brides, two rides are a good way to sort of like. Forced pretty decent style. Like it's pretty apparent if you have awful style, if you're in a barrel. Mm. Devon Howard: But you know, a good amount of surfers can kind of pull it together and get that crouch down and sort of get the hands just right inside the barrel. But if they're like bent over it, legs are sort of straightish and they're bent over at the waist and sort of looking down at the board. Oof. Ow It's really obvious that, um, style's way off. Form's way off. Definitely not artistic. Michael Frampton: Yeah. And the wave's gonna hit you in the butt anyway. Devon Howard: Yeah. Because you're gonna be in bit trouble. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, it's, it's, so, I guess it's also, you've gotta surf back to surfing. You've gotta surf appropriately to the waves that you're surfing. So essentially you are in rhythm with the ocean and also. The, the surfboard that you choose to ride as well, which is like someone actually meant, because our last conversation was about style, which kind of weaves ni nicely into this conversation. And there was a comment on, on YouTube, someone said, oh, someone said you didn't infl, you didn't enforce or, put enough weight to the origin of the word style, which comes, comes from stylus, which is, , your pen as right. It had a certain writing style, and of course it was the words you wrote, but also your, your handwriting and what, yeah, and the quality of the fountain pen or whatever type of pen that you chose to use as well. So I thought that was really interesting. Which comes back, which leads us into the surfboard. So I think that that's gonna determine a lot of your style. And if you are going out on a performance shortboard, people are gonna look at you more like a sports person. But if you're out there on a, on a beautiful, beautiful log and you are going for, you know, form and style, you're gonna be seen as, as more of an artist as well actually. Devon Howard: Yeah, I'd say that is probably a general rule. , At one, once upon a time there was style was really, you know, I think we're about close to the same age. So I grew up idolizing looking at people like Tom Curren in the eighties and nineties and Peak Tom Curren, early nineties, the search Beautiful search films. Um, and then on the Shortboard side of things, you know, again, it comes back competition and sport has driven the departure to, to. Get away from style. 'cause not on the criteria, there's a focus on high performance maneuvers, but there's a return to that. And, and, and over the years there's been people sort of in there, but like a Joel Parkinson, um, who would get underscored because he looked too smooth, which is interesting. Mm mm Devon Howard: And then, um, I think Ethan Ewing is a great example in recent times that the judges really react to it. The surf fans, if you follow the WSL, certainly you know that he's got a huge following. He's a favorite on all the podcasts that you and I listen to, everybody kind of sees him as a return to form, which is really quite nice. I think that's, um, awesome. But at the end of the day, there's still no word or you're not required. To factor in style into the criteria. So it's interesting when you look at, it's not in the criteria, but clearly the style in the form is factoring into the score because he's doing these really radical maneuvers, but really polished, really beautiful form, no arms waving, everything's low and compressed like a Tom Curren or Rastovich, but two or three x, you know, like more like faster and more explosive and more corked out and twisted. , But generally speaking, I think it's true what you're saying that you, you could associate that the average sort of stuff you're seeing out there, whether it's competition or just your local lineup, there's not a real focus on the art or or style. And because the board lends itself to. Pumping and ripping and sort of being in and out of tr proper trim. Um, the, there's not that stability to have that good form for some, maybe a lot of people. Hmm. Devon Howard: But then on a log or a long board, or a mid, I'm sorry, a, um, mid length, it's more stable. The board's more in the water. You're not lifting it and pumping it and getting it out of the water as much. Um, so you've got a more stable foundation to kind of work out, you know, you're not under that sort of stress and pressure of making a board work, going down the line and then getting to the different parts of the wave with ease. So I, I think it's true that a general rule could be for the average person, that the board is gonna have a big impact on your presentation. Well, the form, but just the way. You know, other, the rest of us see the way you're riding the wave. , Again, we're not surfing to make other people happier or to please other people, I think. But good form, it feels great. When you're surfing, it's just like swinging a bat. You hit the ball and you connect, you know, or I don't play golf, but you, you get like a perfect swing. I know my friends at golf, so there's nothing like that feeling. You just know that that drive is going way down the field and it's going right where you want it to go. I think that's good form, right? And then surfing good form. When you get a great bottom turn or great cutback and everything comes together, it feels awesome. And byproduct of that, as your friends might keep you a hoot or a hollerer in the channel. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, labeling it as an art doesn't take away from the fact that we want to get better at all. I mean, any musician who's played music is definitely an art form. And if you want to get better, you gotta practice. You know, you practice, you learn music theory, you practice in your bedroom by yourself. You, you might do it for hours and hours and in order to do one jam with a band and have that be artistic. Yeah. So it definitely doesn't take away with our want, our desire to get better and, and certainly to get better for ourselves, not for some competition or, or how we look, just because it's, it's awesome to do that. The, I think just the simple fact is the, the better you are at surfing, the better it feels. Devon Howard: Yeah. It's, , it's serious fun. You're, yeah. You know, because sometimes the word art could. In some people's mind could communicate a lack of seriousness. Like it, Hey, this thing doesn't matter. It's a pointless pursuit. There's nothing to be really taken that seriously. You know, you, you, you know, run into surfers who will, maybe they'll drop in on you or collide with you and go like, Hey man, take it easy. Like, we're just having fun. Don't take it so seriously. Think, well, you know, a lot of us that have sort of dedicated our lives to it, we take the s the serious part of it is, is the practice, like the guy or girl and the guitar, um, you know, they're hours a day. They're, they're taking it seriously, but they're having a good time and they're, they're practicing over and over. Just like someone in a martial arts jiujitsu studio that's hours and hours of training. Um, we're doing that as well. We don't get as much practice at it 'cause we're paddling so much and sitting a lot. It's actually quite precious the amount of time we get on the board. , That's why, back to the very beginning of the conversation, it just takes a long time. That's why it's hard for kids, you know, it's a lot of patience, a lot of understanding and moving through the, the ocean. Um, and then when you actually get up and ride away, it's just a small fraction of your time in the ocean. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? That's the hardest part of surfing. Devon Howard: It depends how many people are talking to you in the lineup. How many sets in this, while they're talking to you about their real estate deal, you're like, let's surf. Yeah, let's get back. Let's, let's have some serious fun, you know, like I, that's what I always have seen surfing a as like, um, yeah. And, and, and I think, yeah, just like what I was saying earlier, sometimes the, the idea that being an art, I, I've talked to people who take, like, you know, these are professional surfers, people that dedicate their life to it. And I'm explaining to them that it's a, it's an art or a dance. And, and some of these surfers didn't like that. They thought that it, it eroded or diminished the importance or the seriousness of what they were doing. They're like thinking to themselves like, well, I train and I, like, I go to the gym and I run and I do all these things so that I can be stronger and surf better. And like art just sounds like something you do. Like you're doodling in a notepad and it just. Is a pointless endeavor. Um, so there, there, for some people, there's a disconnect with the idea of art. We're clearly all not on the same page on this. 'cause a lot of WSL fans, I'd be willing to bet, would say, uh, that, that, that it is a sport. They do think it's an art, but if they had to choose, you know, they hear they're cheering for people with jerseys. , People that aren't into the WSL would take your stance where you, 'cause earlier you said, well, I think maybe more people would see it as, um, an art than a sport. But I I obviously we don't have the data on that. It'd be, maybe you should do a survey. I, I did, Michael Frampton: I did a small one on, on Instagram. It was, it was about 75 25. So more, uh, but obviously that's a small, that's my listeners. You know, when of course if you're talking to competitive surfers or even, even those who grew up as competitive surfers when they were younger, and, uh, they probably shaped their attitude when, even if they're not competing anymore, Devon Howard: right? Michael Frampton: , But I think taking, taking it seriously and training, and, and that doesn't mean it's not an art form. I mean, Goss, Neil Young has a nutritionist and a personal trainer, and do you know what I mean? Like, he wants to look after himself so that he can perform as art, right? Yeah. It's so can I'm take, still take art seriously? Devon Howard: No, I just, I was only sharing that because I, I'm not saying that there's a lot of people that think that way, but I was a little surprised how I. You know, when you can feel the shift in the energy of somebody who's not liking what you're saying, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon Howard: And I had to kind of talk through it and, um, like, well, it's, no, it's not really the same, you know, like a, a fine painter or a jazz musician clearly is an artist, but, um Hmm. Just had to kind of like re rethink that aspect of it that yeah, it can be an art and it can be, you can also take it pretty serious. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I asked Donald Brink the same question and he was very much in the art camp, and, uh, sure, yeah. I mean, absolutely. And of course that segues into like, he's, when he shapes a board, it's an art piece, you know, and I think you guys at Channel Islands would agree is that there's a lot of. There's a lot of passion and, and thought and care that goes into not just how the boards perform, but how they look and their longevity and all, all sorts. There's very much an an art, an art form, and I wanna talk about the new surfboard, but I, I wanna ask you one question before we talk about boards, which we touched on it, that we spend most of our time in the water, you know, trying to read the ocean, look for waves and paddling around. Sure. Have you got any tips for people choosing the right waves and reading the ocean wave selection? Oh my gosh, Devon Howard: that's a interesting one because, , I use a lot of good surfers use lineups. So when I get to a new break and I don't know what's going on, , it's definitely no art involved. This is more like physics and science now where I. Putting on the cliff cap brain and looking at things, um, from a scientific, like naturalist point of view where surfers study, I think we study patterns. We don't think about it, but hunters, um, surfers that, you know, scientific observers, bird watchers, they study patterns. And so when you arrive to the new break, you're, you know, let's say you don't have a friend there, you have no idea. The old days before the internet told us everything to do, um, we'd have to figure it out. And you just start watching and observing the patterns to see what's going on with the bottom and making a guess on, uh. Sort of sometimes the safety of it. 'cause you could be at somewhere that's like a slab, that's a bit frightening. But if it looks, you can use tell right away if it's a, if it's a u, you know, user friendly wave. So then once you've established that, okay, this is a safe place to serve, , maybe I don't see any fin. So I'm like, okay, there's also hopefully no sharks. And then, then you get out and I, I use lineups. Um, I quickly establish two points on the beach. You know, it's like the two fingers there. It's like with these two fingers, I'll see two palm trees and I'll see a set come in and the first thing I do is I look over my shoulder and I look in and I find two points and I observe about how far apart they are. And then I'll look at the second and third wave and I'll look in and if they're still kind of happening in the same spot. I'm like, oh, okay. We're sort of in a zone and then I'll move around and try to find some, if I can get one of those, another object to actually line up with it. If I can't find something to perfectly line up, then I'll get used to like, okay, there's about that much space between those trees. So if there's this much space, I know I'm like, you know, way off. If it's like over now, if it's like crossed over and gone the other way, I am way off. So I study the pattern that I don't think there's any art to it. I just think if you have good eyesight, you have to use it and have good recall. So, you know, not everybody has good recall. You know, you, you see something happen and then you notice the pattern of it happening again and, and what has changed? Where did that. Thing that's happening move, or did it come in the exact same place? So that's what I'm doing. I'm triangulating, I mean, a lot. There's absolutely nothing new with that. Um, but I do, a lot of surfers I think don't use that. , I'm, I'm not an expert of surfing around Kelly Slater, but the few times I've surfed next to him, I'm not his buddy or anything. I noticed that he does the same thing I do. I'm looking over my shoulder all the time and it's not because I'm worried about someone kicking my ass or that I cut someone off. 'cause that could be a reason to look over your shoulder. Like I, um, it's, I'm, I'm continuously interested, am I in the right position? And, and I surf a lot of crowded breaks. So switching from like a new break, like I'm trying to figure that pattern out and establish it. That's like the first thing, the most important thing I do, um, at, at home where it's really crowded. I'm trying to understand the movements of the crowd with the current and where everybody's at. 'cause when the sets come, I want to, if, you know, unless I'm a visitor and it's not a break, I'm, it's not like my home break or something. , I wanna be on the top three waves. If it's my home break, if I'm visiting somewhere, I know I'm not gonna get the top three waves. , I mean, unless you wanna be hated and everyone to hate you in the lineup you're visiting, you don't grab the set waves. But you can still, even if you're looking for scraps and leftovers, you still want to be aware of where you are and knowing that triangulation. So it's like if I'm on a spot like Malibu and. Alan Sarlo, Andy Lyons, the Marshall Brothers, like all these people that surf there regularly, they're gonna get those waves. But I still wanna know where I am so that once those flurry of waves have come through and there's a few leftovers, those top dogs are out of the way. But I'm, I've ensured that I'm not way too far into the channel. I'm still deep enough in a good spot where theoretically, I mean, it is Malibu, you're gonna get dropped in on, , you, you would be in pole position. So I'm, I'm, it's, it's kind of interesting that to that I spend almost as much time looking out to see as I do looking in. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah, Devon Howard: no, that's a, that's a great lesson. Maybe Michael Frampton: that's a great point. And not only does triangulation help you stay from where you are, 'cause that's where the waves are breaking from, but it also makes sure that you're in the same spot to take all the observations as well. Sure. Which I think is, is important for, for getting to know the break and the patterns. You never Yeah. You wanna be a static observer because Yeah. On some swells, the, oh, it's a different period. They're actually breaking. I usually sit here, but they're breaking over there. Uh, so at least I, at least you know where you are and where you usually sit and now you know this, this is a unique swell or it's a different period. It's, it's breaking over there and you've got a new triangulation or a new observation. So there's lots of reasons to triangulate. Devon Howard: Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question. I mean, it was Michael Frampton: definitely Devon Howard: that idea of what do you, you know, what do you do when you get out there and, and. And then there's also, you see a lot of people who don't really do any of those things and they do just fine. I'm probably just overthinking it. Well, they probably, Devon Howard: but I don't know. I, I, I like the idea of trying to hone in on it. Um, I feel like really good surfers that are getting, some of the best waves really understand that where exactly where they are. They, they do look in. Michael Frampton: I think you also get to a point at, at a break where you don't have to triangulate as much just 'cause you just know, oh, there's a boil there. Whether you're conscious of it or not. You just kind of know where you are in a, in a, in a lineup. You get a intuitive sense for your positioning at, at a certain place. Um, yeah. Are you always just scanning the horizon, looking for the next set? You wanna see the set first or are you want ma la land? I do see waves. Devon Howard: I do because the waves in Southern California, a lot of times are pretty inconsistent compared to other parts of the world. There's some pretty big lulls. Southwell especially, you know, you can have 10, 15 minute lulls of the really bomber waves. So, yeah, I think so. Um, and just trying to see. Yeah. 'cause if people are talking, they're not paying attention, I'll key in on that. I'll notice they're not paying attention, so I'll do a little flutter kick and just sort of move a few inches one way or the other so that while they're not paying attention, I'm just a little bit closer. Yeah. Devon Howard: I'm, I'm not advocating or saying don't take your turn or snake people, but people can kind of work themselves out of the rotation but not paying attention. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Devon Howard: It's funny 'cause like, I find it obnoxious and annoying when people talk, um, a lot. I just, I think a lot of, a lot of people agree with this. My, I don't know if it's a generational thing, but surfing is a place to disconnect. We have. These things. We have all kinds of noise all day long, and the, the ocean's the perfect place. It's like going to a yoga class and everybody's talking. It's like, what? Well, I'll just do this at home. Like I don't need, this is a place to, we can be together and we can connect and vibe off each other's energy. I'm not saying don't say hi to people. Say hi. Hello. Michael Frampton: Yep. Devon Howard: That's enough. Not, but then like, let's settle in. It's like, it, it, I feel like the surfers in the sixties and seventies especially really understood that notion of meditation and just enjoying the quiet parts of surfing, like being okay with the downtime of a 20 minute lull and just sort of sitting there. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally agree with that. I used to be confused as when. Try and talk to someone. Sometimes people won't even say hi. They just, they ignore you and just watch the horizon. But then in the car park, they're the nicest, friendliest people you've ever meet. And you just gotta realize, no, that's, that they're there to watch, that they wanna see that set come first, leave them alone. And you should actually be doing the same thing, like focus in on the ocean. Like read the waves. Yeah. If you're feeling anxious, go in and catch the little ones. Just, Devon Howard: well, you, you actually get pulled out of the rhythm when, when I've noticed, when a deep conversation takes place, invariably you're, you're pulled out of the rhythm of the ocean and you miss, because as you're talking, those other people do, the flutter kicks and they sort of slowly move into position. Mm-hmm. It only takes a matter of inches or feet. Yep. Devon Howard: And shit. 20 minutes, people sort of forget whose turn it is. And if you're not focusing. That, that can be frustrating. So I, I'm, if I've ever been accused of being rude or too serious on the water, it's because I'm from that old school of be polite, say hi. But it's okay to be, have like uncomfortable silence. It's like being in a car ride with someone. A lot of people get nervous and uncomfortable if there's more than like 10 seconds of silence. Yep. Devon Howard: And then they force a conversation and think, well, if the person next to me isn't talking to me, they must be mad at me. It's not a waste. It's like, no, it's okay. Like, just be comfortable being, , in that silence that the, the movie theater thing says silence is golden. Yep. No, Devon Howard: I've had some friends say, dude, that's just way too harsh and extreme. Like you're in an environment where people are expecting to be really social and, and. Talk story and whatever, you know, like just jibber, jabber, like sometimes, I don't know. Yeah, sometimes not. I think Devon Howard: there's a time and place like, yeah, it's like nehi and just your buddy, like there's no hard and fast rule, but I'm just only bringing this up because it, it factors into all of these things that are in play. When you're in the lineup, you're trying to surf, you're trying to have fun, you're trying to be respectful. You're also trying to catch waves. 'cause some people are there to talk. That's great. I love it. Go right ahead and talk all you like It's actually good ground cover. The more people sitting there talking. Mm-hmm. Devon Howard: And not catching waves. Other people won't paddle out. That's too crowded. There's already 50 people out. Yeah. Devon Howard: But sometimes you'll find that half that crowd that has no interest really in getting that many waves. They're just kind of want to be out there. Michael Frampton: They'll, Devon Howard: they'll be happy to get a couple little scraps. Michael Frampton: No, exactly. That's a good point. And you certainly don't judge someone's social character based on the way that they sit in the lineup. It's, um, Devon Howard: so yeah. Well, somehow there's art involved in what we're talking about. Michael Frampton: Oh, definitely. Devon Howard: There's an art, there's an art to the dance of catching a wave and Oh yeah. The art is how do you catch a wave without everybody hating you? Michael Frampton: Um, make it look easy would be part of it, which is artistic in a way. Uh, be res, be respectful. Some, some people get away with it. Yeah. It's, it's a, that's a tricky comment. Well, Devon Howard: it probably has all the answers in those self-help books of like, how to have people like you, you know, there's, there's just things you do right. You're patient, you, you take your turn speaking in a room. You look people in the eye like all these sorts of things. And that sort of can factor into surfing. Now, if you're at like a hardcore lucked out spot where no one, like everyone's mad, you're there. No matter who you are and what you've done, that's a different story. But on your sort of average run of the mill surf break, that's very well known, it's not a coveted secret spot. Uh, it's, I I always find it interesting how you kind of, the art of moving through that lineup and finding yourself on a wave. Yeah. It's Devon Howard: satisfying in a way when you've figured out that it's almost like the satisfaction of being on a hunt, which is like a human, it's built into us, whether you're a vegan or not, it's, sorry, it's built into us to hunt. Mm-hmm. Devon Howard: You're just hunting for berries. Yeah. Some, some are hunting for, you know. An elk. Yep. Devon Howard: But yeah, Devon Howard: there's something satisfying about the chase or cha and like how you get there and the, the kind of the game plan of like, you know, human beings for as long as we know that we've been here on this planet with work together and kind of Yeah. Elk. Um, maybe not so much when you're getting berries. Um, and then surfing. We're all chasing the same elk, but in the end, only one of us wants to get So who gets the elk? Michael Frampton: There's lots of elk. There's lot, there's lots of elk out there though. Yeah, there's definitely a co there's a combination of reading the ocean and reading the room. Sure. Surfing in a, in a lineup and, uh, there is an element of like catching the wave or hunting the wave for sure. But I think once you are in a position where you're, you're just about to join the wave, then it's more about accepting the invitation to dance, then it is catching the wave. Devon Howard: Sure. Michael Frampton: Hmm. And I think that's a more artistic way of looking at it as well. Right. It's right. It's often the way I coach people as well that are struggling to catch waves as well. Change your perspective. Don't just hunt down the waves and try and catch the wave. 'cause you end up sort of, uh, you're being less efficient with your movements if you're just accepting the invitation to dance and your dance partner's playing hard to get, then sort of gives a different perspective on, on catching waves. Devon Howard: Yeah. If you want to get really woo woo on this, what, what about the. Um, I don't understand how this stuff works, but some people will call it the law of attraction. If you tap into the energy, like the energy we have as a human and what we attract, um, for example, if we're negative, um, low vibration, thinking about how bad everything is and how bad people are and that everyone's out to get you. It is really interesting that that stuff just finds its way to you more and more the person that looks at things with a more positive, optimistic outlook. Great things seem to find their way. Now there's exceptions to that, of course. There's really great people that do that and get struck with cancer, unfortunately. But I think by and large, there's a rule there and with catching waves and attracting waves. If you're like, ah, it's crowded, it's, I can't, ah, you know, you see people do that in a lineup and it just gets worse for them. Yep. They're the ones that get in an argument. They're picking a flight with somebody where the patient, people that are just really optimistic and believers that the wave's gonna come to them. It, it comes to them. And then there's the, like, there's the other like, um, really amazing ones that I've always scratched my head. , I've surfed with this guy Victor Bernardo, not that long ago. If you don't know who he is, look him up. Phenomenal surfer. , Wherever he would go, the waves would be I, and I've seen Mikey February do this. I've seen Tom Curren, I've surfed with Tom Curren. I watched it happen. Joel Tudor. There's just, it's more than just knowledge. Hmm. Devon Howard: There's some belief system there that is added into, yes, they have the knowledge, but I mean this happened to Britt Merrick not that long ago at Rin Con. Britt Merrick grew up at Rin Con, knows it better than just as well as any top local, right. Mikey February's sitting next to him and Mikey's having a great session and Britt's like, Hey sit Mikey, sit here. This is the spot. And you know, Mikey's really polite. Oh, okay. Brit. And just a few minutes later, Brit sees outta the corner that Mikey just keeps paddling deeper, like another 150 feet to this kind of area that pretty tough to make unless you caught the wave up top and you came into it at Mach 20. And then if you take off where Mikey is, you might get caught behind. And so you sort of like sit where Britt and most of the people sit and Mikey gets the wave of the day. Yeah. And it's like how it did these things and came to him in a way that didn't make sense to even the most knowledgeable local. I, I don't know what that means. Um, maybe, maybe a a really somebody who understands how the universe works could explain that to me. But there's something about is it his belief? Is he lucky? Is he just that good that he figured out a break that he hardly surfed? He only like, barely ever surfed or Rincon before that. Michael Frampton: Mm. But he is also put a lot of time in and a lot of, you know, there's a lot these surfers that, uh, that we see as magical and so good have actually put a lot of time and effort and I, I actually think, I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge. At North Narab, but everyone's sitting there and then Nathan starts paddling like an animal. And everyone's like, well, I was like, what are you paddling for? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set and starts paddling. He just saw the set before everyone else. He just had a hyper focus on that sliver of ocean. Or maybe it was an instinct thing just from his experienced or his pad pattern recognition is on a deeper level than us. So he saw a, a, a glint of a set further out the back than anyone else. Or maybe there is a logical way to explain it, or maybe it is a bit more woo woo, or I'm not, I'm not sure either. Hmm. Michael Frampton: It's interesting. But yeah, with the, the time we spend sitting there waiting and watching the ocean is, is a, is a big part of it. And of course, what we sit on, what we choose to sit on is a big part of it. And you see over my left shoulder here. Do you know, do you recognize who might have shaped that board? Devon Howard: Is that a Wayne Rich? Michael Frampton: It is a Wayne Rich. It's a harmonics. It Devon Howard: looks like that's it's a harmonic Michael Frampton: harmonic. 67. It is, Devon Howard: yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a stringer configuration he likes to do. , I think part of his stringer influences from Renny Yater. Um, so there's a little, those that know Yater, there's sort of like a, a little nod to him without stringer those stick choices. Um, and that's a great, great model. I've written it. It's awesome. Michael Frampton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a nine, eight. And, uh, you guys at Channel Lines have recently collaborated with Wayne. Can you tell us what brought Yeah. Wayne, why, why Wayne and what brought that on and how did, what was the outcome? Devon Howard: Well, speaking of artists and artistry, um, Wayne would. 100% beyond that side of the equation. Um, Wayne is an artist. He's really into sacred geometry and like really like spiritual living. , He feels things deeply. So I think a lot of us that know him, that's what why we're attracted to him. 'cause he is that passionate. He does take things seriously. I've been at Channel Islands at which I was just talking to my wife last night. I couldn't believe how long I've been working with Channel Islands, uh, came here in 2018. I'm like, wow. You ever have those moments where you just have, there's these timestamps where you started something, a friendship, a project, a relationship, and. And it's the things that go by that quick is usually you're enjoying them. It's when you're in living hell that things drag on and take forever. So that's, I think, a good indication that we're having a really great time here. Um, and I've, I've ridden a lot of different boards. I wrote TMAs growing up for a long, long time. Unfortunately, he passed away a little over a decade ago, close to 15 years ago, pretty soon here. And then I rode some friends boards, Tyler Hatzikian, Thomas Bexon, and a few others. Um, I was just sort of like a country list. Didn't really, you know, just kind of went and bought boards from whoever I was. Uh, Skip Fry. Got into those for a while. Um, the, the gliders, he calls 'em big boards. Other people call 'em gliders. Oh. Which is another story for another time. Yeah. Devon Howard: Um, why they're called that and, . Yeah. And so just being here, we did the mid and then, um, some of the guys would give me a hard time. They would see me writing these other boards that I just mentioned and just a little like, mark you on ci. Like, well, we, we have, there hasn't been a new long board design at CI in like 20 some years. They made a bunch of 'em in the nineties and early two thousands had this Mikey De Temple and other, so even Rob Machado had one, you know, and so they, they for sure had a go at it, but they sort of just leveled out. And long story short, selfishly, I, I wanted a board that the guys would give me a hard time on, and it had some channel analysts on it. And so talked to Britt Merrick and it's, you know, he's like, Hey, this isn't in my wheelhouse. It's just not where his, where he is at. He wouldn't even know where to begin, but. He, he had talked about Wayne Rich being somebody who, who, you know, he is a friend of the community. Britt's known him since he was a teenager. And, um, so it was like this perfect fit. We're here in Carpenteria, Wayne's a a a Rincon regular and been in this eight to five zone for many decades. And so, yeah, we just got together and we had a chat about what we wanted to do. So we made a board called the CI Log, which came out two years ago. And then this newest one we just came out with a few weeks ago, it's called the ci Nose Rider. Sounds like a lazy name, but, um, it does exactly what the name says it does. So the, the log was a Australian style, what we call, um, in like, people call it involvement style. It's where you're really moving around in the pocket. It's more of a dance. It's not just hanging out in the nose all day and just standing up there. It's, it's full tip to tail movement. And then the nose rider. Is geared more toward anyone that just wants to hang out on the nose. It's a great, like a Malibu, any point break, someone who's really hyper-focused on the nose, kinda like an air board. It's like, wanna do an air, get the neck beard too. Or you know, whatever model that is focused on that. And then I think the coolest part about it is just weighing the decades of experience and connecting with someone who's that real. I mean, you know, you have his board, he's just like the ultimate underground character. He's just been this guy that, um, you never had aspirations to blow up and be the biggest thing. And so I, I think we all feel real lucky that he was open to the idea of collaborating and , he has a lot of respect for Al Island. So it was just like a perfect fit. But I, I could bore you to tears about all the details of the board, but I think at the end of the day, it's just, it's a work of art. It is very functional. And makes nose riding easier. And then, , our friends at True Ames who are in now, they moved to Caria, but just down the street. Chuck Ames is over there and Troy mother's head and they made a fin that goes with it and it, we had a nice spin in it, but when we were done with the process of making a fin that compliments a board specifically, that's a really fun process. We did a bunch of, tried like almost a dozen different fins. It was over a number of months and made a few versions and then it made the board nose right, even better. So it's really noticeable. If I don't have that fin in it, it, the board still works great, but just works better. Everybody knows they've got a board at home. If they have the wrong set of fins in it, it's a totally different board. It can almost be like a deal breaker and then you get in that right set of fins on your, in your board. Magic. Michael Frampton: Yeah. So, Devon Howard: yeah. Michael Frampton: Oh, awesome. Devon Howard: We that, Michael Frampton: yeah. So it's the, no, the Nose Rider. Um, yeah. Arguably the best longboard shaper in the world working with Channel Islands. It's pretty cool. Devon Howard: I, I think it'd be hard. I, I don't think a lot of people would argue with that. It would, he's won the, um, you know, he is won that icons of foam shape off. He's, you know, he was just in a recent one. He was just in the final, he pretty much won it, according to most people. We don't get in those details, but another contest. Yep. See, trying to make a contest out of an art, which is shaping surfboards. Really funny, isn't it? Michael Frampton: It is funny. It is funny. Gosh, there, there, there's almost nothing you guys haven't done now. Oh gosh. I mean, if you could get skip Fry to do a, a big, a big board for Channel Islands, you'd have everything in your lineup. Devon Howard: Yeah. That's a bridge too far. People might burn. People don't like those things. They off gliders. They're bad for the lineup. Longboards are bad enough. But I think, you know, it's interesting, like you don't see as many longboards as it used to. I think every, not everyone, lemme back up. A lot of people who would've ridden a high performance longboard or a longboard have jumped over to a mid length. I think that's really cool. Where like 10 or 15 years ago, there was a bigger divide. There was high performance short boards, um, high performance longboards or logs, which kind of got popular about 20 years ago after the Tudor, the seedling and all that sort of stuff happened. And then God forbid you had subs, the, I mean, they were the most hated. Yeah. Now Devon Howard: the most hated might be foyers, but, um, so somehow the. On that, um, hierarchy of who's, who's the most hated, the, the, the traditional longboard has kind of maybe gone and rung up the ladder and kind of gained back some ground there. , But yeah, this is one of those things that's, you know, it's a timeless beauty and, high performance, short boards, they're always being driven by, by performance. And that formula one mentality of trying to be ones, just whatever that incremental step ahead is of your competition, you'll take it. So those guys, Britt Merrick and that crew, they're always like 30 seconds of an inch. I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me. But Yago Dora the other day, like, chipped his fin at J Bay just barely chipped it. He kept looking at his fins and he got out of the water and took that one fin at work. Any one of regular of us would've just kept surfing, but he felt it. Wow, interesting. So those people, yeah. Yeah. And then with traditional longboards, you don't need as much progression and refinement. So I think with what we're doing, it's like Wayne and I had these ideas. We, we did about a year and a half of refinement and it's like, I don't know what else we could do to this board to make it any better. It's insane. That's like a really cool, that's a cool feeling when you work on a project, whatever it is, you build something, you build a home, you build a piece of art. Um. Knowing that you did all you could to make it the best you could is it's really is like a satisfying feeling. Yeah, Michael Frampton: yeah, yeah. Well, it makes sense to have a quiver of boards for different, you might not see logs in the lineup that much, but sometimes the waves is just, yeah, go surfing on a log or you don't go surfing. Sometimes they're that small and weak. That's, it's nice to have that board, even if you're not a long boarder per se. It's nice to have one of those in your quiver. Yeah. I had a thought, I don't know if there's any merit to it, but if, if for example, you had let, let's say you had 10 surfboards ranging from performance, short boards all the way through to a, to a log to a long board. If all of those surfboards were from the same manufacturer, would you have the consistency of the, the materials and the curing time and the sanders that would give some sort of, that, that would make those boards sort of gel together better in a way? Devon Howard: I don't know if that's true. Um. I think what holds things together is like a rocker profile. So like if you have a family of boards that share a similar rocker, but you can't really ever do that when you're going in the full range. You know, you, you're never gonna have that with a short board all the way to a log. They're just so different. So I like what you're thinking that, but maybe someone could argue that that's the case. But over that stretch of a board, so much is changing. Just if, if you have a great rocker, you can have a great board, even if you botch the rail, I think. And, but going from a performance shortboard to a log, something that has a really hard refined edge to some

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/5e81988a-b9ba-4708-a79f-ba1581c863e8/Donald+Brink+-+Surfing+Art+or+Sport.png?format=1000w] https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076 https://open.spotify.com/show/1VvhOpHEu31U4gktXJdkQv?si=ZUWd5smuSkaAh-4ukvIP7g https://www.instagram.com/surfmastery/?hl=en https://www.youtube.com/@SurfMastery/videos https://www.facebook.com/surfmasterysurf https://twitter.com/surf_mastery https://www.tiktok.com/@surfmastery Is surfing just a sport—or is it something much deeper, a form of art that mirrors your soul? Whether you're a weekend warrior or a lifelong wave chaser, you've likely felt that indescribable magic in the water. This episode dives into that very feeling, exploring how surfing transcends competition and becomes a deeply personal, creative expression. If you've ever wondered why your best session had nothing to do with trophies, you're not alone. * Discover why Donald Brink believes surfing is more about galleries than stadiums—and how that insight can reshape your approach to every wave. * Learn how intention, presence, and lifelong curiosity can turn every surf session into a meaningful act of self-expression. * Hear how legendary surfers and everyday wave riders alike find purpose, growth, and connection through a pursuit that often defies explanation. Tune in to hear Donald Brink unpack the soulful side of surfing and walk away seeing your next session as more than just a ride—it could be your masterpiece. www.brinksurf.com [https://Is surfing just a sport—or is it something much deeper, a form of art that mirrors your soul? Interest (I): Whether you're a weekend warrior or a lifelong wave chaser, you've likely felt that indescribable magic in the water. This episode dives into that very feeling, exploring how surfing transcends competition and becomes a deeply personal, creative expression. If you've ever wondered why your best session had nothing to do with trophies, you're not alone. Desire (D): Discover why Donald Brink believes surfing is more about galleries than stadiums—and how that insight can reshape your approach to every wave. Learn how intention, presence, and lifelong curiosity can turn every surf session into a meaningful act of self-expression. Hear how legendary surfers and everyday wave riders alike find purpose, growth, and connection through a pursuit that often defies explanation. Action (A): Tune in to hear Donald Brink unpack the soulful side of surfing and walk away seeing your next session as more than just a ride—it could be your masterpiece.] https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en [https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en] Transcript: Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] Well, you mentioned them being art, which segues us into, I wanted to talk about, which was. Is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Now let me, , I'll tease you a little bit with some of my thoughts and then I'll, we'll get you to weigh in. So, the Oxford Dictionary defines a sport as senses relating to play pleasure or entertainment. , Some other, uh, definitions, , diversion, entertainment, fun, , frequently with modifying objective, , , activity that you do for pleasure and that needs physical effort or skill, usually done in a special area and according to fixed rules. So surfing definitely fits within most of that definition. Maybe not fixed rules, of course, if it's competition, it definitely does. And the actual, those are sort of some modern dictionary definitions of sport. And the etymology actually hasn't changed much in the origin of the word. I will [00:01:00] add I think those that have a background where their sporting youth was competitive, , you would immediately think that sport was, , competitive as well. And so obviously surfing fits that, but only in a small niche, OO of a hundred, uh, people, sort of, or a handful of competitive surfers in the world. Mm-hmm. Then art, which is definitely has a, some lucid definitions, but the dictionary may explain art, is in the use of the imagination to express ideas or feelings. , That can definitely, uh, explain surfing for a lot of us. Uh, the expression of ideas and emotions through a physical medium, often with the intent to evoke a worthwhile experience. Definitely surfing fits that. Something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings. Again, another definition of art, which I think surfing for [00:02:00] me at least, fits in there. The etymology of art. , Basically put a skill as a result of learning or practice. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. Obviously how art thou art has been used in other ways, , which sort of comes back to one's identity as well, which I think, is a cool little nuance there. 'cause obviously a lot of us as surfers, we identify as surfers. It's not just something we do. , So there's a little bit of a history of the two words. , And I'd like to hear your thoughts, Donald. Donald Brink: Those, those definitions definitely have an overlap. And I think I would've, , if you asked me to choose one, I would choose art. And I, I think that, , that's changed over time and my confidence in, I, I want be rather just choose one so that it, so obviously it's both, but I would say it's art. And the [00:03:00] reason I'm more adamant on that now is because that's changed over time. Because even my work, people often ask like, oh, oh, these boards, it's such art, you know? And I'm like. No, it's like they're beautiful. They like, it's like, well, I want to hang it on the wall. It's like, no, just go surf. It's, it's like I, I do paint pictures as well, and you're like, that's art. You hang that on the wall, that's gonna, you're not gonna surf that. And then you start to realize either it's all art or none of it is. And, and that's a brave statement. And, and it's not to be cute. And therefore, to me, surfing is art because it has such, , depth and value and meaning to yourself and the inspirations. And, , the things that come along with the, the surfing life to me are sometimes indescribable. And that's what art is. You know, it's really hard to quantify exactly which brush stroke meant that thing come [00:04:00] together, which part of the light in a photograph. Convey that emotion and you don't want to start to study it in such depth that it, um, kills the bird to find the song that then vanishes. So you start to see these metaphors trip on themselves. And, , I prefer if, if there's art in everything to be endlessly fascinated by art, then this is art. And that isn't, 'cause those binary thoughts to me just make it, , they put endpoints on, on potential new horizons or potential dreams. And that's happened to me. Like a lot of board design, not a lot, but from time to time there's been waves I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt on waves about. And those are treasured things. And I'll, I'll wrap this thought up with this. I, , I got to meet Phil Edwards. . A few months ago. I, I've seen him before. I, I'd never met him before. And, [00:05:00] uh, yeah. I was endlessly obviously inspired and fascinated by his legacy to surfing. And a mutual friend wanted to bring him by my shop and introduce us and I was like, such an honor. Right. You know, like, get him to meet Phil Edwards and he came down to the shop. , He was such a lovely man. We, we, how we, we got on like a house on fire. It was great. We were talking boats and design and all kinds of things. And I, one of the reasons I was so interested in him was 'cause he stopped surfing years ago. Just stopped surfing. And I, I was like, I'm always like, man, how do you just stop surfing? That's just strange to me. Right. And I wasn't sure how to ask that 'cause I wasn't conducting an interview. I wasn't sure it was even my place or space to ask. So I, I asked him flat out, I was like, this is, I'm not sure how it's gonna go. But I was like, Phil, do you miss surfing? No, it was about as, as, , as much energy in the way I said it then as it was when I just said it to you now, like, Phil, do you miss surfing? And he looked at me and, and he didn't hesitate much at all. He said, [00:06:00] you know, I have dreams about it and it's still so vivid, it's amazing. And he shared one or two things and we moved on and I was like, wow. It was as though he's still surfing. And it left me more confused and even more interested because I was like, man, imagine the, the data points that I'm getting from my surf just yesterday and potentially that I could get from today's surf could be things storing up inside, which you would hate to meter or measure, but they're in you. And I think they come out of one without being governed or policed, and therefore they're precious. I wanna respect them, and that, that's how art feels to me. I, I've been working on some mixed media, like, like challenging pieces, really like pushing myself as a creative being. And I say that because I can feel [00:07:00] the angst and ah, I can phone this in and just make it look pretty or I can try and find new ground. And, and when you do, stuff comes out from within that halfway through, you get these break points and they're like, wow, I, I didn't know I could do that. And it's, and you, it's not that you're impressing yourself. You, you just can't believe that you were able to be part of this dance of something that came to life, , really through you, not from you. And I'll challenge people to, to compare this to what they've felt in their own surfing. You know, you, you're out there sometimes and maybe it's even when there's a waves are good and then you take off on this little wave. My point is sometimes the most rewarding sensations come from the most surprising little nuanced events, or the most unlikely timing of things. , And there's just so much input on the sensors. It's such a sensory activity. [00:08:00] In fact, you would say it's sensational. And that, that used to really bug me, that that's all surfing was. The whole thing's just sensational. And I was challenging myself. What, or am I trying to ascribe too much to what surfing is? Am I trying to add too much value to it? 'cause I'm so either ridiculously into it or, or am I trying to put meaning to something that really doesn't have meaning and therefore make it okay? And no, I love it. I'm so grateful for it. I think it's entirely creative. If you want it to be. And, and I, I think the whole thing is art beyond, beyond words because you can't find the words to explain something to somebody else that meant so much to you. And over time those meanings and those things compound. So sport's cute, but I like to do art and I really, I really think because of that, you could be put [00:09:00] into, oh yeah, well you're an artist. And I'll kick back on that saying I think we're all artists and I, I've practiced art a lot and I've also practiced surfing a lot. And therefore I see the similarities and, you know, I think it's, , the act of surfing it, it really needs to be. Put together as, uh, the adjective and the noun. I guess now I'm talking out of turn, but the, the practice of surfing is something I like to say sometimes audibly. It's like, I'm going to practice surfing today. And it changes the energy in the, in the approach or, , the act of surfing lifestyle, the surfing lifestyle or the surfing life. , These are words you read on book covers, but I think they're really well thought out, you know? , So I don't mind how surfing's explained. I just don't like to be, I don't like to to have end points within my own understanding of it, because it keeps showing itself to be bigger and more beautiful and deeper [00:10:00] and with a bigger and broader community of, of things indescribable for all points of view. And for me, that's important and I'm grateful to be part of that. But, , that's more of a, , gallery setting than a stadium. Mm. And both are cute and both, both are necessary, but I would, I would prefer to be at the gallery. Yeah. No, that was beautiful. I loved that. And , the more I think about it and the more I analyze it, it actually makes me realize that surfing more and more is an art and not a sport. . It is a sport as well, don't get me wrong. If you go by those, , the definitions in air quotes, and I think for a lot of people it is only a sport because it's just something they do for a little bit of recreation here and there. And then obviously, obviously you've got the highly competitive people who treat it as a competitive sport. But for most of us, and I'd say everyone listening to this show, it is an art Donald Brink: for sure. [00:11:00] Donald Brink: And I think I'm not against sport. And that's where I think this could be like, it's like, are you for sport or are you for art? And that sounds like we're both for both. But I love the concept of sport. I just, I, I just think if I had to shake, that's why I was, I'm gonna choose one lane to honor that. So it's like, uh, I think it's more art than sports. , Yeah. Yes. And the other thing too is that it's so personal and it's like there's not many other sports which have such a, , closed feedback loop within just oneself. Like a team sport would naturally be your team player when you enter the ocean. , You might be amongst people, but you're really playing different games on the same court. You know, it's you and the ocean and your thoughts, but , the, the school is within your own life and you take away what I call stoke or those little joyous moments. Frustrating ones too. So there's wins and losses, but they, they're kept within one's own heart.[00:12:00] Mm-hmm. Donald Brink: And therefore, it's hard to show me another sport where that happens. So consistently at choice. Yeah. No surfing is closer to music than it is tennis. Donald Brink: Like, I like the concept. What I do like about parameters is they produce really good art. If somebody commissions you to do a piece and you have to, and there's a couple of confines or a narrative script or whatever, it, it really helps give a narrative guideline. And, and it, I think it helps produce good art. Agreed. Putting some confines and so that's why surfing competition is actually really interesting. Just to put a clock against the heat. You surfing against the clock. They're all really good. So. I, I do think therefore you could even argue, that's why the art's so good, because now that's you've put confines. Well, that's the [00:13:00] irony of it all. You look at a competitive surfer. The the ones that win, they're the, they're the best artists. The, I think the only competition in competitive surfing is like the strategy stuff, not the surfing itself. Right? It's the strategy and all that other bs. But once you're on a wave, even John, John surfing a wave in a competition is art. And that's why he's so good, because he is an artist. He's dancing with the wave. Donald Brink: I, I agree. , And so therefore it's like, yeah, those confines produced better art, so therefore it's art. It's, but my, back to my point, it's like trying to think of another sport where you are, , selecting to be so individualistic in your pursuits over and over. . 'Cause people often look at surfing at, at first glance, it seems like quite a selfish activity. And I'm sure it can be. I mean, it certainly can be. , But when you realize if you could cultivate your fascination for the sea, [00:14:00] it could be, , you could be a better husband for the teacher partner by your not surfing too much and also not surfing too little, right? It's pretty simple. So once you balance that fascination, that gets very, very powerful. And I don't see, or at least I can't think of another sport. 'cause I often think, man, what if I didn't get to surf or I couldn't surf anymore? Like, what would I switch this out for? And it, it ends in tears every time. I'm like, I've gotten so much outta surfing. And then you're like, man, am I so shallow that I, I hedge so much on this and I'm sure I'll find something or get really busy doing other things. , But. I can't, you know, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine replacing it. And I think you'd have to replace it with many things. . Yeah. To Donald Brink: fill the complexity of the, and that's why it's unique. That's what I love about it. It's so complex, like these central downloads that you go and get and those humbling [00:15:00] experiences, like being scared in the ocean is something that I do not take, take lightly. I mean, scared for your life at times. And that is such a gift to choose to do because many people don't get scared by choice often at all. And so to do that at will, the learnings that you once again, take away for yourself and you return to your tribe or your family, or your place, your, your neighborhood, your community, you return as a different person. Mm. Donald Brink: That's a beautiful thing, you know? Yeah. Maybe martial arts encompasses some of the things in surfing and that way it's, it's, it's risky. You're playing with the power of something external. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. You have to be very skillful and relaxed in order to do it well. Donald Brink: Yeah. But I think the difference, uh, I like that. Sorry, I'm not [00:16:00] trying to be right here. I think the difference here is that you'll never overcome or, impose your will on the ocean. Doesn't matter how frustrated you get at the wave, it's, it's always going to, it, it's, the ocean's just so big. It's would be like trying to fight the mountain. So in martial arts, you'll, you'll generally explore with another human. So there's, within your mind, there's this concept of day one today. Whereas when you surf, the sea will always win. You're not stopping the tide. It's, it'll come up and down twice a day. That's what it does. And Donald Brink: there's a, that's where the humility comes. It's like, you know, you can't win. You're not, you don't go to the ocean to win. You go to the ocean to, , be part at best. , Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I've thought about this too much, it sounds like, but um, that's, that's why I'm like, no. The other sports that we, I always end up in these little cul-de-sacs. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's, mm. Yeah. I mean, there's so many reasons why [00:17:00] I think surfing is more of an art. Then you're connecting with nature. It's, it's all, it's borderline a religious experience. It's the, it's challenging. It's scary. It's fun, it's playful, it's artistic, it's creative. It's, Donald Brink: mm-hmm. And those restrictions that you might, if you're commissioned to do a painting, has certain restrictions. Well, same with surfing. The waves are the way they are. The board you chose to ride that day is the way it is. Mm-hmm. The crowd is only gonna gift you certain waves. Like there are so many restrictions every time you go surfing. And if you can play the hand, you're dealt Right. You have the opportunity to dance with the wave however you want to and create yourself as long as you're in the right spot yourself. Yeah, exactly. Donald Brink: And not getting in anyone's way. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting. That's. Think about these things when you're trying to understand like, you know, what a [00:18:00] governing body or a sport entity is doing right or wrong within a surf space. See how well I worded that? But you know, like the judgment on how to run a surf competition is, um, you know, it's endless. But I'm always wondering is like, it's almost 'cause it's, it's not a sport and everyone wants it to be a sport 'cause they're getting paid dollars to win, right? Or dollars to be endorsed. But the best parts that we love about surfing, like if, if there were no competitions you would land up with, what we would have left with would be amazing surf films and people enjoying the ocean every day. So if you think about the best parts, and this is just me talking now, but when I think about I do, I watch, I follow all the tour and everything and the like, some of the best parts are the fact that it's almost like a live version of a surf movie. And so it's still. It still is what we always will want and need and enjoy, but it doesn't necessarily make it a sport, it's just there's an [00:19:00] overlap of the things that it'll always be. Um, it's, it's just, it's really interesting and I, I do think it helps surfing and it makes surfing more understandable and more broad. And yet all of these things really don't matter. 'cause if you don't like surfing, then it doesn't matter. 'cause it's those who do will cherish it and hopefully be responsible with it. But yeah, it's, I, I don't know. Like I think you have to, ah, I'm talking in the wrong space. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think that, that, there's an, an interesting irony there because even those who treat surfing like a sport to the extreme, the professional surfer in a competition when they're actually doing the act of surfing. It is an art form, the same, the same way that an Olympic gymnast is judged. The, the ones who do it, the smoothest and the most beautiful and turn the sport [00:20:00] of gymnastics into an art form, those are the ones that win. Mm-hmm. Donald Brink: Yeah. It's, it's, it's neat to have winners. Um, it's, we like winning. It's funny, I was thinking about this just being on the Gold Coast at Burleigh, and if you had to suspend the competition and just have a group consensus of who surfed the point the best over two weeks, I think you'd actually land up with similar winners. Right. There'd be some incredible standout locals watching them understand that wave and surf it so well. But my point is, good surfing is inspirational. Like watching somebody. Put a performance, and you could call it a performance together. It's, it's so just, um, it's amazing and the depth and detail and nuances to us endlessly fascinating, but also to a layman, somebody walking up the point watching a competent surfer put a ride [00:21:00] together is it's, it's quite obvious, right? So like having to put clocks and jerseys and heats and buoys in place just to find that is almost hilarious. Like at the end of the day, the ocean knows we know, and yet none of it matters. And yes, it's still interesting, but you know, there's, here's my point. You know, those days when you, you went surfing and you realized that you were so in tune and you, you kind of surfed beyond what you thought you could and you didn't win anything and it didn't matter. Mm. Donald Brink: That, that is quite a beautiful thing. I think very rarely we've seen somebody do that in a final, and that would be the highest level of sport, right? To see somebody just lose themselves in a performance. And it's from time to time. I'm sure that happens, but my point is like, if you are not that person and [00:22:00] it, it really doesn't matter to you. So the fact that you can level up and go beyond yourself within these, within a sort of, and find new levels and heights and connections and have a dance put together on a wave, let alone a bunch of wave and put a session together. Like are we constantly at sport with ourselves then, is the question? Hmm. And in terms of winning? Yeah. Because like you described that the moment where you surfed better than you had, you won. Oh yeah. You won against. Yourself yesterday. Right? So you became a hundred percent, you became a better artist, let's say. And I, I think the competition surfer, I think when a competition surfer wins, they, the feeling is similar in [00:23:00] a way. 'cause they know, oh man, I surf that wave beautifully, probably because of the pressure. Pressure makes, made a diamond in that case. And not only did I win the thrill of the wave, I won some money, which gives me the opportunity to surf this amazing, the, the next amazing wave next year with only two people in the water and create more art and, right. So I think you we're winning a surf competition. I mean, look at Kelly Slater. He just kept on doing it. I don't think he, he didn't need the money. He didn't necessarily need any more trophies. I think he just wanted to surf pipeline with two other people in the water again. Donald Brink: Well played. I mean, that, that's the game of life then, not the game of surfing. It's like, oh, you get to jump through these hoops and you get, these are the little perks, you know, it's, that's quite brilliant. You know, we, I mean, you do that in any decision in life. You, you play the game according to your lifestyle you're looking for. So it's back to lifestyle now. [00:24:00] And therefore that's quite a creative composition of how to spend your days or your best, um, cardiovascular years, let alone your joints. Um, and for me, I choose surfing and it's, um, it that shows itself from time to time in conversations where, like, I, I have foil board at one time and it was incredible, but I, I just chose to not invest in spending that much time getting good at something else, which I know I'm gonna love. 'cause I wanted, I know life short and I want to be so deep in what I'm doing that I. I dunno if it's wrong or right, but for me I was like, I'm gonna stay purely focused in this lane 'cause it helps me understand my work. And I'm not judging anyone being divided in interests, but I knew how much time it would take someone like myself to get proficient at foiling. And so I was like, that looks incredible for me. I'm gonna say no, only 'cause I'm looking for a, uh, I know I could surf better and [00:25:00] deeper with the consistency that I'm still chasing. I think the consistency in surfing is the measure that most people don't talk about, and to me is the most important thing. , And the most consistent I can be with my approach to any day, any board, any session, and be in control of that consistency is really what I'm aspiring to. 'cause that then you can tap in and balance yourself in life like I can. Pop in at the beach for 40 minutes at the right time of the day with the right equipment, ride six waves, and be back to work and be radically changed with the shortest amount of, neglect to other things that I'm really interested in too, whether it be work or art. Right. So therefore that's, that's a creative balance. And therefore surfing is, it's, uh, I don't, even if you wouldn't agree, that's the creative act of surfing is creative, that the balance of its lifestyle is quite creative, you know? . Yeah. You've gotta stay on top of your skills, otherwise [00:26:00] you can't take those opportunities. Like, if you've got the opportunity to, to attend band practice once every month, and you don't practice in between, you're not gonna, you're not gonna enjoy that rehearsal hour that much because your skills aren't sharp and you didn't, you didn't sink in with the, with the song. Right. Donald Brink: I think the future of surfing is being able to be accurate in challenging conditions. I'll say it again, accuracy in challenging conditions. I've, I've summed it up that succinctly because I've thought about this so much, but I think as surfing gets more crowded and popular, uh, the difficult waves are gonna be the ones you get to enjoy either on your own or on the smallest or fewest people are like the smallest crowd, right? But they're harder to surf. That's why no one wants to mess with them. But if you're able to tap into that and either stay polished or just have fun and that's what you enjoy, I think it's really difficult to, to ride small, weak [00:27:00] waves. But it's, it's of huge value if you wanna stay tuned for when good waves do come or when you do get chance to be on a trip, or when you do get a day when it's too big for everyone else to paddle out. Like there's, there's a repetition and a favor to trying to stay. Um. But also that needs to be fun in and of itself. And I'm endlessly fascinated by these, um, small and crowded waves that I choose and get to ride on my own. And I'm not sure if it's just 'cause it's, it's better than fighting in a crowd or if it really is of long-term value, but it doesn't really matter. It's just interesting to me. So yeah, I'd rather set better wage, but also it's maybe not like when you really look back like what is surfing? And you're like, it's the pursuit of excellence within oneself. It means nothing to anyone else. So like if you said it was, um, [00:28:00] if you, sometimes I think of serving as a puzzle. What's the next piece to put together within a performance on that wave, let alone waves within a session you could build, , really difficult puzzles. That's quite a radical choice. So back to making things hard to get more out of it. Yeah. That's, that's just an interesting part of life. . Yeah. Imposing new challenges. It certainly elicits the flow state. Donald Brink: I like that you said flow state, because as you said, imposing new challenges. I was like, I, I, I don't know that surfing and tricks need to be, so, um, that sounds kind of sporty to me, like the tricks within surfing. It's like, well, yeah, there are maneuvers that seem unnecessary and they probably feel good and that's why you do 'em. But then there's efficiency in [00:29:00] connecting energy parts of a wave that we put together as what we call a beautifully ridden wave that felt good to do. That's what I'm consistently talking about. And if that requires an air within that, that's great. But the, once we consider categories of technique and, and, um, proficiency in a trick, I get a little lost. Can't do most of them, that's for sure. But that is a different thing. And I watched the wholesale vibe. It was fantastic. Like, yeah, yeah. It's, but it's a Donald Brink: different thing at that point. Surfing, I think simple surfing is the best, you Donald Brink: know? Well, until, until you realize it is, it might not be for you. And that's why it's, it's your own thing. Like it's, it's your own fascination. Like what are you really, fa like those ISTs must be incredibly fascinated by putting their body at those potentially dangerous positions over and over. Like [00:30:00] the, like imagine being injured and sitting out for that many months, that many times within a life that you're only 24 years deep in. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk that. And so you let some sections go, right? It's just a different fascination and an incredibly incredible ability and incredible amounts of, um, refinement gone into consistently pulling off maneuvers like that Netherland in a shallow pool. Um, it's like, what are you, fascinating? What are you fascinating with? And how do you unpack that best? Um, that that's, that's how you would approach a complex puzzle or a challenging art piece. It's just problem solving, right? Like how, I'm not sure which, which part of this next paintings a layer or, and then you, and then you break through and you find, ah, and then you get a little more momentum and then. You get, uh, you get the wobblies and then you lose confidence, and then [00:31:00] you get these little breakthroughs and then all of a sudden it's done and you at best know when to stop. And that's good editing. And that's probably the hardest part. It's kind of like surfing too, and it's like, okay, it's time to end the session and the waves are still pumping and you didn't have to be anywhere. But sometimes it's sit on the beach and watch the next four sets and just realize what you've been a part of. That's maybe a maturity that I'm starting to see. And it's, it, it, um, it doesn't add value to the session. It just helps resonate the memories that you've gleaned and therefore maybe files them better and protect, I don't know, maybe I'll get to dream out of or from them. So being really precious with those, um, times. Yeah. Do, do you think surfing becomes more of an art. The older you get or the better you get or the more experienced you get? Donald Brink: A hundred Donald Brink: percent. I think, I think one, one of the thoughts I had [00:32:00] today was, , if you think of surfing as an art, then it's like, well, there's some pretty bad art out there, mine included. At times you make terrible decisions or distasteful selections on a wave or on a board color or in a wetsuit choice. Like, like it's still life. The, it's not a, it's, it's not a hundred percent all the time. How boring would that be? And, and yet you see people's growth within their own surfing life. And that's why you don't want to judge. And these statements really need to be taken with huge amounts of salt, please. But you see people new to surfing that get fascinated deep enough, and then they wanna learn so badly that they'll almost like get in their own way. Then others just naturally acquire these skills and they're quite proficient and you realize they're probably good at a lot of things. They try, you know those people, right? Mm. Donald Brink: Um, they're just really quick learners or like taking feedback or pinpoints. And now with the amount of [00:33:00] coaching available and those kinds of opportunities, you can learn, you can shortcut the learning really quickly. And yet still, if surfing is an art, then your creative body of work is really your surfing life, your surfing lifestyle, the way you understand what surfing is to you and how you responsibly cultivate that relationship with surfing, which means with surfing and everybody else in your life too. There's, there's other relationships. It's always complex, right? Um, I think you'll see people surfing change over time and yeah, things go in and out of style and in and out of fashion, but you creatively get more, um, astute to what this thing means to you and how to balance it. . I think if you are only fascinated by very, very good waves, there'll be a time when surfing just gets so frustrated and you hang it up. I can think of so many people that have done that, and that's interesting. It's, it's not our, I am, and I'm kind of grateful for that. 'cause I'm kind of not sure what I'd switch [00:34:00] it out for. So that's their path to discover. But right now I'm fascinated by how it is and how I'm approaching it daily now. I guess surfing is like, if you think of, let's take, let's take music as an art form. If you are, if you first start learning the guitar Donald Brink: mm-hmm. Are you practicing art? Donald Brink: No. You, you, you practice so that one day you can play. That practice, if possible, should be fun 'cause it keeps you interested. And if you're interested for long enough, one day you might be able to play a song and sound like you would like it to sound. So when you learn to surf, you're practicing surfing, and one day you might get a really nice wave, come to you and you'll blow your mind that the, the feeling [00:35:00] of how that felt and the how ridiculously happy you feel for the next day, week, month, year. I don't know. My point is you walk away with that sensational, change the stoke, right? So I do think there are times when you practice surfing and there are times when you perform surfing and they're usually, um, premeditated. And if so often there is a overlap within it. Days when I'm on the beach training and I, I've used those words. I'm either going to therapy or I'm going to training and I'm surfing all by myself. Meaning I know the kinds of things I'm working on, like riding very difficult boards is a hard pill to swallow except I know what I'm looking for. And so that would be training, that would be like exercising one's ability, refining your ability, highlighting [00:36:00] your pain points. So there are times when I practice surfing like a musician, learning a new scale Donald Brink: a hundred percent. And therefore I'm staying tuned, I'm staying activated, I'm staying interested and not all of it is fun. And yet I know I'm on the larger overarching NA narrative. This is gonna return dividends. 'cause on the right section, I know my arms are gonna be in the right place. And with these films on this rail. This feeling is what I'm not chasing, but when it comes, I'm gonna be so grateful for it. Yeah. That's why I like that. Yeah. I I It's your intention, isn't it? If you're practicing or you're learning how to do something, but you're doing it because, like, think of music. If you, you're, you're practicing the guitar, you're doing it because you want to be good at the guitar as an artist. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. Right? Not as a professional or a sportsman or whatever. [00:37:00] Donald Brink: Right. It's such a creative outlet. Like it's nauseating when you see somebody surfing really well on your, can't surf as well as that. Right. And you're like, wow, that must feel amazing. And yet to them it probably, it feels okay because they, they, until they're pushing themselves that feeling, and that's why I don't like the thing of tricks. It's like, it's not like until they land on your trick, they probably won't feel happy. It's, if you are not in tune, no matter how well you're surfing, you know that you're missing out on what you could have done or wanna do. Right? So your vision for how to surf that wave with, with flow and seamless transitions and reading the wave properly should be always growing. And when you do from time to time, get it right, it's undeniable. That's what keeps you coming back. So I think looking at other people surfing and imposing what you are able to do or can't do, you gotta be careful for that. You wanna push yourself constantly. And that's a practice. , , I mean, it's [00:38:00] almost like, it's like people learning to surf shouldn't ride good waves, which is a terrible statement, but it kind of could hold up, you know? Like there would be, I. If you went to low as an only really proficient surfer surfed out there, it would be an entirely different experience. Now, you wouldn't wanna put a gate on the, on the, at the, at the sea. Like you don't wanna, you know, gatekeeper the place. However, if you work on your surfing well enough and you get proficient enough, when you do get to surf a good wave, you are not gonna be in the way, you're gonna be in the right part of the way of doing the right thing, and the memory's gonna be really rich. So, yeah, I, I, I'm still trying, I'm trying to lend a surf still. Mm-hmm. Which Donald Brink: is incredibly fun. Yeah. The, the guitarist sits alone in the bedroom doing a lot of practice. They don't [00:39:00] practice on stage. Donald Brink: Please, no. Get off the stage. Go learn your, go learn your stuff. It's not the time or the place. Yeah. You might as well go down to the closeout beach and just catch white water after white water and practice your timing. There's reps Donald Brink: exactly. There's reps to be had with nobody around. And, and if you, if you, if you do speak to musicians long enough, there is this relationship with that practice. You know, it's kind of still, it's still really fun. And so if you think of surfing as a sport, then you would train for sport. And yet why you would think it is a sport. 'cause it's like people will switch it out for another sporty activity. It's like, well I'm not, I'm not running at the moment, so, but I've been surfing a lot. I haven't been going to the gym. I've been So you're switching it out for a cardiovascular. Endure endorphin releasing kind of activity. And that's, that's all true. But then you also need to switch it out for, well, [00:40:00] that means you should be, you, you're working on your pedal technique when you're surfing. Right. And then, and how the breathing exercise is going. And, um, the wave Ki program, how, which, which module, like there's parts of the responsibility to it being a practice that is pretty obvious if you want to call it a sport. And yet even more logical if you're creating art, 'cause you work on how things work and then you manipulate them or be able to play with them without of your, your, um, pantry of options. Yeah. You can, you separate practice and play. You're still an artist. Donald Brink: They coexist. There are times when I'll approach the sea and I'm certainly putting my hand up. Yes, this is a practicing session. I'm going to practice surfing, and yet there's still moments within which good surfing is happening, and I have the most amazing joy. So there's a performance that means nothing to anyone except myself. That's what surfing is. I [00:41:00] think that's odd, but they do overlap by the strangest ways, but they are, um, I just don't like that hard line between like the sep binary separation between practice and then performance. It's more, um, the lines are blurred as you, Donald Brink: uh, I'm trying to think the best way to, I was, this is one of the things I was thinking about, but, , I grew up studying the Bible a lot and there's a verse in the Bible. That, and it didn't, A lot of it still doesn't make sense, that's for sure. And, and it's, most of it's like skewed in a narrative that that's just, it's silly. Anyway, there's incredible wisdom there that I do look for. And, and the wisdom rings true, and therefore I like it. Anyway, there is a verse that says, go into all the world and share the gospel, and that gets like, oh, you should do it this way. But the, the [00:42:00] verse actually says, as you go into the world, and so what I was thinking about was like, is surfing who you are, what you do, but it's the way you do it, the way you, you go about life as a surfer. You do not drive down PCH without looking at the waves. Once you've started surfing, that's, it changes who you are. So as you go about surfing, the way you can conduct yourself as this artist, if it's art. Is there therein, I think is what the message was. That's that. If those were the words of Jesus, they make total sense. 'cause they, that seems to be true. You know, you can carry that with you. It's the way you go, as you go. Um, anyway, that, that was the best way I could understand it within my own self. 'cause I've wrestled with that thing before and I was like, well, that kind of makes sense with the art and the, the sport thing. So, so is Donald Brink: for whatever, is it worth surfing? Is gospel, [00:43:00] no, surfing is art. And if art has truth within it to you, then it'll be true somewhere else too. Like, so you can't force a narrative on somebody else. But if I talk about these things in surfing and you haven't felt them within yourself, then why does it matter? But if you have, then we resonate on a similar thing. And I'm not trying to be right, but if that makes a difference to how you see or understand something that that could be really joyous within your own life. Like this has got nothing to do with you or I, it's got to do with whoever's listening and there surfing. Right? Like I constantly have to remind myself, and it just happens naturally, really. But to get out of the, the what's going on and that it's going on, like you remove yourself from this. 'cause like, otherwise surfing is just selfish again, but it's, it feels something that you then bring back to the rest of of life with you. Mm-hmm.[00:44:00] Donald Brink: Yeah, I agree. It's quite simple and yet it's really difficult to put words to, and here I'm rambling on and on and on, but it, it, I do wanna be careful 'cause the words matter, you know, like, . I think not not trying to bring meaning to surfing, but just acknowledging that it has great meaning is, is enough for me. And it's taken years to get to a place being so comfortable to say that. And I think I didn't grow up in a surfing family. They have no idea about what this whole thing's about. It's pretty hilarious. And now having a young family and my son surfs and we are enjoying sessions together, it's such a joy. But they all know how much surfing means to me, and they, yet they don't understand that at the depth, nor will they ever, and that's okay. Well, Let's say you have Kelly Slater and Messi, the, the Great Footballer Messi. Sure. Both, both are artists, I would say. I would say Messi is an artist within the sport of football. [00:45:00] Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. And I think that he would say that football is a bit more than a sport for him personally. Of course, like his relationship with the field and the ball and the goal and the opposition, et cetera. He would probably describe it similar to the way you and I might talk about surfing. His love of the great game and, and then when you watch him play, he's, the ball is on a string and he's, he's doing art. So I think that for surfers, surfing is your thing, but then other people, whether it's football or cross stitch or whatever it is, I think almost any pursuit can be an art if it's given enough. . If it's given the permission, if you give yourself permission for it to be an art, and it means that much to you. So the best, right? The, the people that are at the top of their field that do whatever it is, beautifully, you could say it's an [00:46:00] art for them, whether that's a sport like football or tennis, or whether that's painting or music. Donald Brink: Well, there's a mastery there for sure. , Yeah, I, I agree. If, I mean, if something's fascinating enough, you'll go deep within it and within depth , there's incredible beauty, you know, , messy and Kelly have complex lives, and yet they've seen something deeper than most other humans would ever see in that space. But that even at the end of it, it only means anything to them. And then we can glean and look and listen from it. But at the end of the day, you come back to your own life and your own surfing and your own soccer ball, and who are we? So there's this narrative of like, can I create. But yet I'm also in creation. It gets as simple as that, you know, like you're part of something and yet it's still you and yours. Um, and then you get to share within that. Like I think the gift that Kelly's given us has been incredible. He [00:47:00] is, , contribution to surfing beyond many other things is very inspirational. And the way he carried that torch, I'm sure he is looked back with regret on some things, but for the most part, like he's incredible ambassador. You know, I've heard him speak at many things about those kinds of things of how much surfing's giving him and how much he wants to give back. And it just makes sense. Um, , I was watching this. Art show. Gosh, it must have been 16, 17 years ago. It was a long time ago. And it was an art competition with these artists that they would give them. , It was kinda like a cooking show. You'd have briefs and then someone got eliminated. Someone got eliminated and throughout the weeks, and then you'd land up with four finalists and they had a commission and they did this thing and they chose the best artist. And once again, it's like, man, it kind of got cringed 'cause he had to make it competitive to make it meaningful. Anyway, similar to what we're talking about. But I remember, I, there was this one [00:48:00] artist, I really liked his work and, um, he didn't win. But what he did in his final was, it, it was really, it wasn't clever, it was just well thought out and it was moving. , I, I still remember it. And one of the judges got up. I wish I could, I wish I'd remembered their name. I wrote it on a sticky note and stuck it on the bottom of my computer. And it said, good art isn't what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. And he didn't win. And that was the condolence to him. Like, 'cause you could tell he should have won maybe. And yet the scores showed that he didn't. , But that's what they said. They said, good art isn't what it looks like, but how it makes you feel. And it was very helpful for me at the time, creating, I've always been creating, but like formally showing up and getting commissioned or paid to create [00:49:00] something, whether it's a surfboard or a painting, photograph film. And so therefore understanding that was very helpful. And then when you think of the conversation of surfing being so much of a feeling, and that's okay. There's a, there's a really beautiful overlap there. It's not what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. You know, when you, it feels like you're ripping and you're not. And then you learn to surf better and you realize that you're inefficient. And now you can get to more places with more agility and ability and it flows more proficient. Like that's why we want to get better at surfing. But the end of the day, as long as you're not in anyone's way, if it feels good, that's, that's kind of a good thing, you know? And that's enough. So yeah, I had those thoughts the day thinking back about art and how it feels to create and there was an overlap there for sure. And I dunno what it feels like to be a very proficient [00:50:00] sports person. And that would be interesting to, 'cause I don't know what that's like. So it, it's, it, I don't have a good point of view on that. So I'm already just talking as an odd point of view. I'm realizing I've played sports, but I'm, I've never been that good at something or played it for this many years, you know? Well, how it makes you feel. Yeah. As a surfer, nothing feels better than surfing. And if you are a Donald Brink: surfer and if you have the perspective that surfing is an art and you're expressing yourself creatively, surfing is an art, especially for you. And then you take someone like, , I mean the film Kelly Slater Black and White, is a beautiful piece of performance art. Not, not just from Kelly himself, but the filmmakers as well. But obviously the focus is Kelly's surfing, which is performance art. And how does that make us feel when we watch it? Like we almost get, oh wow. I can imagine what that might feel like. I wanna go surfing [00:51:00] now. Donald Brink: Right. So, and then messy playing in front of 50,000 people he's performing there is, is an element of performance art the way he would feel. I. You know, obviously he would love kicking a ball around by himself. But to, to score a goal in front of 50,000 people that are cheering at him, there's a, a certain, a different feeling, not just for him but his supporters as well. So they would get to feel some of what, oh wow. They can imagine if they play football as well as sitting there watching it. They can imagine what that must feel like to score a goal that beautiful in the heat of the moment and Donald Brink: Right. So therefore a sports athlete could also be a performance artist in that scenario as well. Donald Brink: I mean, you see people like you stand at pipe and watch somebody score a 10, I've done it the last two years. It's pretty incredible. Like watching Baron getting blown out of that wave and the clock time. Like there's an energy within that and [00:52:00] once again, like that becomes bigger than what it was. So therefore, like this whole thing is you, you, you, part of creation he was creating within create, I can't think of better ways to. Try and understand it within myself and even not, not trying to put words there to meaning and an end, but yeah. He was creating within that creation. And the creation was this man, that amount of people on that beach with that many people watching online. And it was such an energy. It was, it was really cool. And those are little moments of Lavonne and it's, it's a beautiful thing that was art created for sure. Um, that's a museum time, you know, museum piece. A little capsule. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Art is so, gosh. Yeah. This, I mean, performance art. And you think it's, you know, when standup comedians often when they talk about themselves, um, you know, they are performing artists. Oh yeah. And they're often very self-aware and they'll even say, oh, I, I love being on stage. I love being the center of [00:53:00] attention. Please look at me. Please laugh at my silly dick jokes, or whatever it is. They're very aware that they love the performance aspect of it and Right. Being the center of attention and whether someone like Kelly Slater would, would be willing enough to admit it. I, I think he gets off on being the center of attention and a performing artist. And I think a lot of athletes are that. However, if he's to surf by himself on some boat trip when everyone else is, uh, having coffee, he'd get maybe more out of that or just as much. And that, but that's more for himself. It's still, it's still art. I mean, I think surfing is a, as many different forms of art. Donald Brink: I mean, it's a yes and right, like you're still a human, like someone stroking your ego at that level, you know, of course you're gonna tap in. But I often think of it this way, like, if all the surfboards went away tomorrow, would I still show up and go for a body surf? [00:54:00] And it's an absolutely yes. So like if you strip things down to like, are you really still interested in this? If all the competition goes away, would those surfers still surf? I'm pretty sure most of them would. Right. So therefore they are surfers. Are they winning surfers? Well, that comes and goes. But I like to think of it as simply as that like without a board, you still enjoying the waves or to see, or just a body of water, and therefore, like, it kind of takes the nuance of all those other things. Of course, they matter and they feel good or whatever, but I do like the concept of surfing in the, in the simplest form, you know? Mm. Well, I mean the, in the analogy there of body surfing, you are, you're still surfing and you're, you're connecting with something bigger than yourself. Donald Brink: Exactly. And something that has a long history behind it too. Playing in the ocean. Donald Brink: It's almost like listening to our [00:55:00] conversation now and trying to like, really. Not see if I'm saying the right thing with just clawing for words here, but it's almost like a surfing competition really should be showcasing that. It should be more of a waterman appreciation thing. Like who's the best body surfer, aerialist, tube rider and point surfer. And I can tell you exactly who I think would win those, like the axle woodman. And you're like, oh, well this isn't what we're doing. This is what we're doing. It's, it's all fun, man. It's all good. But I, I do respect the creativity or the art, the art life approach or the surfing life. Art life, surfing life. Transposes, the art, artistic creation or expression of someone being proficient from body, surf, swim to, to bride. I could name my two favorites and it's, uh. That is incredibly deep to me. Like, wow, the things they must have felt and seen and the way they carry [00:56:00] themselves through life with those memories and responsibilities is, that's pretty high level man. That's, that's a life, that's an interesting world of life. I, I, in my opinion, I'm interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The connection to the ocean. And then from a performance perspective, you're connecting with the audience as well, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the connection is a through line. Donald Brink: Yeah. I think 'cause you're present, you know, like it's, you, you start landing up in, um, yogi terms yet pretty quick. It's, um, like, yeah, you, you're in it, you know, you're only feeling it. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's cool. Yeah. Touche. Yeah, it's good. It's good stuff. I mean, but yeah. Back to the listeners. I see, I wanna keep thinking about these people. I can't believe they're still listening. I think there's three of them. I dunno. But set out to, like, [00:57:00] I don't say, I don't wanna like premeditate surfing, but set yourself these little challenges and go play in the sea with this. I'm still learning mentality. It's, it's quite liberating. Um, I'm practicing surfing. If you say it out loud, there's actually some science behind, I forget exactly how they quote it, but like, um, it interrupts the conversation in your head. So, Donald, I'm going to practice surfing right now. You address yourself in first person and it, it's quite disruptive, but do it with your surfing. Like start playing and messing with it that much, that responsibly. Oh man. It just gets more interesting and it, and interesting is the word I choose because it doesn't get, um. Deeper. It's already deep. It's just looking into it for long enough that, uh, is the difference maybe. Mm. I I like to say to myself, I, I'm going to play surfing. 'cause I like the music [00:58:00] analogy as you're going to play music, I think brings an element that Donald Brink: conversation with that exact, uh, concept. Yeah. The act of play in that we don't use it for surfing. I've had this with a friend just, just a month ago, like, yeah. 'cause he was writing, , Substack articles on play. The concept of play and how it's like, it, it really well written pieces. James, lovely young man, and he, um, I was like, man, it's interesting that we don't switch that out for surfing. We don't come play surfing. We come and maybe practice surfing or just perform surfing or just do surfing but play. And we riffed on it. We were in the water, which it was not a great place to chat, but we took the conversation on land and. It was, I like that to play surfing. . Ironically, the best surfers in the world, they learned from an early age, which is when it was pure play. Kids just playing with the whitewater and then on body boards and then trying to surf Dads surfboard, they're playing [00:59:00] with it, or watching my kids learning surfing now, and they just, they don't wanna surf like anyone. They just love catching waves and just playing. Donald Brink: Well, I, I agree. I think that's really interesting. But I do think now in 40 years, we're gonna be able to have data and have to look back and see people that started surfing late and, and die surfing after staying true to it, maybe being exposed to it later. What that kind of relationship will be later. Like if you started playing, would it, uh, on an average forecast that it'll end this way, or if you. Arrived to it late. I was only 15 years old when I started surfing, which is quite a late blooming. Right. Um, but then there are many examples of pros that started that late too. I believe Dan Reynolds started. Oh, really? Oh, I didn't know that. I think so. Wing Wingnut started at 17, but he body surfed since he was five. Donald Brink: Uh, maybe a better grounding to be honest. Um, but there are people that start later and [01:00:00] it, it, it is interesting. I, I do like that concept of play, but I don't think it's, and that's what's cool about surfing. It's not, there's not one way. Mm. Donald Brink: It's, it's your way 'cause it's your surfing, you know, like it's, it's your thing. Yeah. Yeah. Food for thought. Yeah. Well, actually in, in the episode with Aaron James, we, we talk about that a lot. About the play, play, play and, and stuff. Really interesting. He had some really interesting thoughts on that. That's episode 1, 1, 1 for listeners, but yeah. Um. I think the year your relationship with surfing does, not everyone, but a lot of us, it evolves and it becomes more playful than we get. Well, that would make sense. Donald Brink: Yeah, that would make sense. If you look at the rest of life, you know, you see some PE people retire out of what they formally did as a career and start picking up new interests or whatever it is, like life moves on and so do you. And therefore, as you change and your understandings and your, your vault of [01:01:00] memories come with you, you know, we are who we are and we've been fused and formed from the goods and bads that have happened to us. So like, like those things, you are not in control of everything. And yet to be able to approach something and tap into it with this practiced years of appreciation, I highly really like that. Uh, because you don't know what's coming. And I just, I'm grateful for every day I do get to surf. Um, yeah, I, I really am. I think that every day that goes by, the gratitude deepens. Like what this is. Um, yeah. For me Donald Brink: it's been LA lately just sitting on the beach and watching a few waves and it's like, okay, well maybe you don't have the luxury of time. Just no. Like if you have 45 minutes to surf, we'll sit on the beach for five of those and watch waves. It's a good investment I fund and this is what I've found. So try it on for yourself and see if that fits. But I think it's coming out of [01:02:00] this large gratefulness, this generosity towards what it is and just even removing yourself from it and like letting those waves go and ridden. This is a beach and nobody was at the last two days me surfing all by myself and it was like, just sat and watched a few waves and it was meditative in a way. Uh, meditative. Yes. Donald Brink: Oh, definitely. Yeah, that's been fun. Cost nothing and it's changed everything. Like that was just the last two days. I had no idea we were having this conversation. Like there it was. It was like, that is interesting. I'm just gonna watch. I'm gonna wait for the next set now. It was just so interesting. It was like mindset and, and what it did was just, just blossom some. This gratefulness within me has, has really, it was quite surprising, I would say that. And I'm even more grateful for that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We used to do that a lot more when we were young. In between surfs, often just watching waves when we had time. Donald Brink: It's almost like watching surf competitions [01:03:00] for me is like just watching somebody else ride away is, it's like, it's just interesting enough. I mean, you can sit and watch that all day if you had the luxury of it, but it's like eventually you just wanna go surfing and driving yourself nuts, but, mm. Yeah. Or maybe get, or you get to fill, Edwards is age and is maybe just dreaming about it's enough. Donald Brink: Gosh, it was such a interesting conversation and, and yet he was so poignant and direct. I, I was really, I was like, oh, I'm really glad I asked him. And, um, yeah, he was, it didn't offend him at all. I took a chance, but yeah. What a neat man. Yeah. Gosh, it was so cool talking about boats and holes and designs. It was really, really neat. Yeah. Oh, cool. Donald Brink: I can't believe he hasn't been interviewed. I mean, like, oh, has he not, Donald Brink: I show me an interview. I mean, like, he was notorious for like, not really speaking about surfing and his, like he's, he lives down the street. I, I, now that I know what he looks like, I see him, but, um, yeah, I'm not sure if he's just not approachable, if [01:04:00] nobody's taken the time. I'm not, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that it would be a, I'm pretty sure that either David or Scott have approached him. I'm sure I remember them talking about it. Donald Brink: I wouldn't be surprised that he turned it down, but it would be a shame for him not to have his, uh, not everyone wants to do that, and that's fine. It's his own thing. Yeah, no, Donald Brink: understandable. It's, you're, yeah, you're surfing your own thing too. It's like, it almost feels rude, imposing our thoughts on what this is to others. And that's why I'm like constantly trying to think about how people are listening to this, and it's like, just shut us up and think about it for yourself, like, and take ownership on those things and share them accordingly. But that's kind of, there's a cringe factor, and yet there's also this gratefulness to be able to talk about these things, let alone to live the life looking at them for this long, like, that's the gift, really. So yeah, I, I am grateful for that. Oh, and I think it's awesome. People want to hear different perspectives, especially from those of us who are in the industry, who have had the luxury to do it more than them, [01:05:00] and immerse ourselves a little bit more. Any little nuggets we can give them might help them in their weekend warrior journey and to get more outta life and stick with it and yeah. Become better surfers and, uh, more focused or more present artists. Donald Brink: I like that thing. The more present artists. 'cause I, I practice art too. Like I do a lot of art, but there's, yeah. I could Donald Brink: walk in right now and show you the doodles with Drew yesterday. And I've been trying to show my kids, like I set on little assignments. I'm like, oh, you need to write a thank you card for so and so and or all you have to do is spend five minutes to do this if you wanna spend longer this, but you set these little parameters, but it's like, like, look at this art piece you did. So you, you were commissioned to do something. So I have to do the same for myself. It's like, all right, sit down and draw this and it's helped me. So therefore it's helped my surfing's it's hand in hand. [01:06:00] That's an interesting point and analogy because. If you sit down and you spend one minute creating a thank you note, uh, the sentiment would be appreciated, I'm sure. But if you were to sit down and spend five minutes carefully with care and intention for that thank you note, maybe the

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/f0b2670f-8c66-41d5-848f-802a34201d11/Donald+Brink+Podcast?format=1000w] Is your surfboard truly helping you become a better surfer—or just keeping you comfortable? In this episode, we explore a question that many surfers overlook: are you riding the board that suits your potential or simply what the surf industry has marketed to you? Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, learning how equipment shapes performance and self-discovery in the water can revolutionize your approach to surfing. * Discover why changing boards regularly—even riding the "wrong" board—can massively accelerate your progression. * Learn from Donald Brink’s radical experimentation with ultra-narrow surfboards and how it unveiled new layers of wave reading and board control. * Understand the deep connection between board design, wave selection, and self-expression that transforms surfing from sport to personal art form. Tune into this eye-opening conversation to challenge what you think you know about surfboards—and uncover the path to becoming the surfer you were meant to be. http://www.brinksurf.com [http://www.brinksurf.com/] https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en [https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en] www.surfmastery.com [https://www.surfmastery.com/] Key Points * The importance of the surfing style over the type of surfboard was emphasized, highlighting the value of constantly changing boards to improve one's surfing skills. * Donald Brink discussed the benefits of challenging oneself with difficult surfboards to discover deeper aspects of one's surfing and personal growth. * The conversation touched on the idea that societal and industry influences might shape people's preferences in surfboards more than personal preference. * Donald Brink shared his experience with creating and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a profound and enlightening exercise in understanding his own surfing and design principles. * The dimensions and unique features of Donald Brink's narrow surfboards were discussed, including the challenges and learnings from riding them. * Donald Brink mentioned that Dane, a fellow surfer, showed interest in and eventually rode one of his narrow surfboards, taking it on a memorable trip to Iceland. * The discussion explored the combination of narrowness with modern materials and design elements in surfboards, a concept Donald Brink is pioneering. * The potential of narrow surfboards in wave pools was considered, with the suggestion that they could offer unique and advantageous surfing experiences.  Outline Surfing Philosophy and Personal Growth * Donald Brink emphasizes that the way one surfs is more important than the type of surfboard used. * Donald discusses the value of constantly changing surfboards to challenge oneself and improve surfing skills. * Donald shares personal experiences of riding very narrow and difficult-to-ride surfboards to discover more about oneself and improve surfing technique. Surfboard Design and Preferences * Donald and Michael discuss the influence of the surf industry on surfboard preferences, comparing it to the standardization of the Fender Stratocaster in the music industry. * They debate whether surfboard preferences are truly personal or influenced by societal and industry standards. * Donald mentions that professionals often use different types of surfboards outside of competition, indicating a divergence from industry-driven preferences. Challenges and Learning Through Surfing * Donald explains the benefits of riding difficult surfboards, even in challenging conditions, to gain deeper insights into one's surfing abilities and improve overall technique. * He discusses the importance of recognizing one's limitations and frustrations as a means to identify areas for improvement. * Donald shares his experience of building and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a humbling and enlightening exercise. Surfboard Specifications and Design * Donald details the specifications of the narrow surfboards he has designed, including dimensions and unique design elements. * He discusses the challenges and learnings from riding these boards, including the need for more rocker due to their narrowness. * Donald mentions the interest of other surfers, like Dane, in trying these unique boards and the feedback received. Surfing as Art or Sport * The conversation touches on the philosophical question of whether surfing is an art, a sport, or both, with a promise to delve deeper into this topic in a future episode. Transcription: Donald Brink Really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration, your surfing, you start to realize... I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride, and I rode them in—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many... Michael Frampton Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That was two quotes from part one of a long conversation I had with Donald Brink. Part two will be published next week. This will be Donald's third appearance on the podcast, first back in episode 42 and episode 76. So if you enjoy this and you want to go back, those are the numbers. I reached out to Donald to discuss, is surfing an art or a sport? And that will be in part two. It's an hour-long deep dive into that. But the first sort of 25 minutes of that conversation was a good catch-up and a dive into what Donald has been up to since we last spoke. And of course, his deep and philosophical thoughts about surfing and surfboard design. And as with every conversation with Donald, there's so many gold nuggets in here. Donald is a great thinker and an incredible surfboard shaper and designer. You can check out more from Donald at brinksurf.com—it's b-r-i-n-k surf.com—and of course at Donald Brink on Instagram. Did you hear the one with Aaron James? Donald Brink Another—okay—must have been. Michael Frampton Aaron James, episode 111 I think. The audio quality wasn't great from his end, but it's worth a listen because you'd love it. He's a philosopher and we just talked at the, you know, all about philosophy. Donald Brink You've interviewed him before? No? Okay. Michael Frampton Right? Donald Brink I remember there was somebody on philosophy. I'll look forward to that. The last one that comes to mind that I'm just remembering, maybe I'm missing one or two, but it was you discussing the timing of entering waves, jumping onto the board rather than paddling into it, and you realize they can push and pull that bandwidth of when you're actually taking off on the wave. I thought that was—I'd never heard it. It was just a passing comment to you, but I gleaned from that. I was like, it's really interesting to do that, to stand in the shallows and not paddle for waves as part of wave training. Michael Frampton For beginners, yeah. Whenever I take a beginner out, I say, what are you paddling for? You're standing in waist-deep water. Just jump because the wave's going so slow. If you wait till the wave hits the back of your board and you just jump forward a little bit, you're trimming and then you can—you don't have to paddle. That's how my kids play and naturally catch waves just by playing. And it takes the pressure off having to paddle. Because everyone, you know, that's the first thing that beginners complain: "My arms are so tired." And it's, well, save your arms for the pop-up. Donald Brink Right. Yeah. I've been spending a little bit of time and sat some lectures with Rob Case, the surf paddling instructor. And I'm sure you guys all know his work. And if you haven't looked at it, I would encourage one to explore that because most of surfing really is paddling. Yeah. And he's the specialist in the paddling field. And the short story is, it was just like being able to ask him questions. And what they tap into is intuition of what they've learned, both in formal study and in the hypothesis of studying what's actually going on when we are paddling or taking off on a wave in particular. And surfboards are very inefficient at moving across or through—generally rather—in water. And yeah, just like the studies just show how radical it is going from submerged to now planing and therefore now standing and then surfing. We're swimming at best for most of the time. Michael Frampton I know. Yeah, I've had Rob on the show a few times and I've done his course. It was amazing. But that's why I surf a boat nowadays. It's easier. Donald Brink Love you. Yeah, it's... There's nothing wrong with that, and I still think surfing comes down to preference. And it's a word someone used in the water one day. You know, like some people ask you stuff in the water. It happens to me now and again. I try and be, like, not rude, but really hyper-focused. And somebody said, "What are you riding today?" And it was actually a very traditional-looking board, which they were surprised at. Because I've been known to ride—I'm always testing and trying new things, right? And I was like, yeah, it's just really good to palate cleanse and ride a standard shortboard from time to time. And I do it because it keeps my surfing honest and my design mind honest to be like, well, this is supposed to work. Most people prefer this and I know you can get it. And it's—sometimes I didn't make that board. So there's zero judgment on what I could or should have done. And they were like, yep, that's really good. It's nice that you're doing that. I think it's a good responsibility. At the end of the day, it's just down to preference. Everyone knows what they prefer in a board. They usually don't know what they need. And it hit me, like, really hard—that statement. I was like, this really is down to preference. Like there's no... There's things I know that I like in a board and you don't really want to impose that onto other people as a suggestion, even at times. Michael Frampton But do you think that is really people's preference? I don't. Because I think we chatted last time. It's like the Fender Strat is like people's preference in guitar. Well, that's only because it happens to be first. It was like the first guitar that was really well made and all the studio musicians used it. And then it became a standard. Whereas with surfboards, I think it's just—that's just what the surf industry pushed on people. And that's what the pros were riding. I don't know if it's a preference because of society or whether it's an actual literal preference. And I saw Steph Gilmore in the water surfing good waves. She wasn't on a performance shortboard. She was on a fish. And then when you see pros outside of competition, they're not usually on performance shortboards. Donald Brink This is a great point, and I think you're right. And I think that preference could be perceived as being accepted. So this person's comment—and I know this guy fairly well—he doesn't want to be seen on anything else. So he would prefer to endear a Stratocaster on stage in this example, right? And yet a hollow-bodied Telecaster might be better for what they're playing. And that's a great point because, yeah, that's what we've been marketed to and that's what the biggest companies are consistently marketing or manufacturing, right? It's still a valid point though because what he prefers is important to him. And that's where your surfing is your own. And that's both the biggest blessing and comes with a huge responsibility if you want to cultivate it. And once you realize it's up to you, as long as you're not in anyone's way, you can have a lot of fun in the sea. That's the golden rule and it's taken years to really get as succinct as that—like, be in the right part of the wave doing the right thing and not being in anyone's way—and you are welcome. Fish. Michael Frampton Amphibian, say. Donald Brink Should I? Michael Frampton Yeah, no, I agree with all of that. I do think it's a little bit short-sighted when you see people, if their preference comes from the surf industry or whatever. They just maybe haven't thought it through. Hey look, I'll put my hand up. When it's six foot and barreling, yeah, I want to be on a performance shortboard. The rocker fits the wave. I'm more likely to come out of a barrel, of course. But how often is the surf like that, really? Donald Brink Right. Michael Frampton So it's— Donald Brink Okay, let's expand this conversation then to... Is it worth trying to ride something that's really difficult to ride? Because I see most people only riding things that are easier to ride. Ciao. I challenge myself to ride very difficult surfboards sometimes. And I don't have as good a session. But because my surfing is my own and what I'm getting out of it is what I'm willing to get out of it. And sometimes you go really deep in trying to find... Parts of yourself, really. Or parts of the wave that then bring out these joys that you've been searching for. So when the waves are good, it's like, are you willing to waste good waves trying to ride something different? And it could be to prove a point. Well, that's now a little immature, but if it's at the expense of searching the depths of oneself within surfing, I find that very interesting and not often seen, shown, or even talked about. And I do think it's a developing category of what surfing is to somebody. Because it's... it's yours to yourself. Okay. Michael Frampton Yes, you're right. I mean, if you want to take even a small-wave performance shortboard out when the waves aren't great—and maybe you'd have more fun and catch more waves on a hybrid or a fish—you want to go out there and challenge yourself and keep the board on rail and... yeah. I mean, that kind of board, almost if you're planing and going straight, it's going to slow down and you're going to bog. But if you're staying close to the whitewater and surfing rail to rail, you're going to have... find that feeling. There is a thing—there's a detail that you've got to realize, listeners—is you might go down to Lower Trestles, let's say, for example, and let's say it's shoulder-high Lower Trestles. You're going to—it might look like a slow, soft wave. But the way that the water is drawing off the bottom, the way the current and the bathymetry, the way that the swell angles in towards you a little bit actually makes the wave a lot more rippable than it looks. But if you were to go down to San O or Doheny and the waves are bigger, that might look more powerful from the beach, but you're going to—and you take the same board out—you're going to find it a lot harder to surf a bigger wave at a softer break than you would a smaller wave at a more rippable break. So learning to look at those details of the refraction of the swell, the way that water's drawing off the bottom, will help you choose what sort of surfboard to take out as well. So there's a fine line between... what's your skill level, what's the wave like, what are your intentions to the way to surf. But I agree with you. If you want to challenge yourself and become a better surfer, yeah. A board with a bit more rocker is going to force you to—it only really works if it's transitioning from rail to rail. Donald Brink Well, that's one example, but extend it even further. Like, what if you rode a really flat-rockered board that's too small for you or a really big board? If you constantly just change the variable of the board—because everyone, it's kind of intuitive really, you'd think I'd be so into the board, and yet it's like, I get to make these things all day and I love it—but really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration—your surfing—you start to realize which parts you need to work on, which parts you're really good at. And that's what—as succinct as I can be—it's are you in the right part of the wave, doing the right thing and not being in somebody's way. And switching up boards, no matter what the condition, it shows itself best when you're riding the wrong board on the wrong day. Because you start to realize, I should have been over there on that wave. And until you're frustrated by that, you won't know that that's where you need and want to be and continue to strive to be there, right? So the wrong lines because your board wouldn't let you is really helpful too. So you're wasting waves to learn. I don't know any better. It's a long exercise, but that's what life is. And to share within life is part of that. Michael Frampton Yeah, no, I agree with that as well. I mean, when I first bought a longboard, my shortboarding improved tenfold just because I had to learn how to surf a much bigger board than I was used to. Look at the wave differently and predict it more. And then you jump back on a shortboard, you know, wow. Thank you. So yeah. Well, I mean, how far can you push that? How ridiculous of a surfboard can you ride? And, you know, is there a surfboard that would improve your surfing more than a different surfboard? Donald Brink 100%. I set out on that question. I try and be really honest about what works and what doesn't work. And there's a lot of boards I've built that do not work. And I had to—you have to learn that, right? And within that endless mystery of what works and what doesn't and how hydrodynamics come into play, I set out on a goal to see how much feedback I could get out of a board that I built that was essentially very difficult to ride, and yet the sensory download from a wave ride, if I could pull it off, would be the highest. And I landed up on—it would be the narrowest board possible. Because I think a lot of boards can be most easily, comfortably designed as to going wide, right? So I set out to do the exact opposite and see how far I could push it. And it was one of the most humbling and now enlightening exercises I've ever set out on. And yeah, it has changed my life because of these effects. And now even the designs within all the other boards... but what it did was let me understand what surfing is to me, and which parts I enjoy. And the best parts were—it was nothing I was trying to impose or imply on anybody else, except I knew the learnings would live on into the rest of my work or work I get to do for somebody else. So to wrap this whole thing up, it would be—I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride and I rode—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many inherent flaws that were very easily fixable, but you couldn't really feel them because they were muted or disguised in the designs of comfortable boards. And what it did was—I could walk away from that in my surfing shoes definitely improved. And now you can just jump on them—any board around the world—and have fun, which to me really is the goal. Can you travel without boards and just ride one you find for a hundred bucks? And now you don't have a bag for you and you have the most fun. Do you know what I mean? Like, you want to have the ability to be able to ride anything, anywhere in the sea, and be able to be safe and respectable and just have fun with that relationship with you and the ocean. And that, to me, has always been an "any board" policy. So that's what happened to me and gosh, it was rewarding. I haven't shared or shown any of them yet because what happened was—it was so profound that I was like, man... So I started collecting them. I think I'm on board 11 right now. And I will present them as a show in a series. I'd love to do an art show, actually, because together they will make sense because you can see the lineage. Yeah, things have just kept popping up and there's attention to other projects right now, but it doesn't matter. It's forever green. So... within the next year, I'm sure. Michael Frampton Yeah. How narrow are we talking? Donald Brink Well, the first board I did was 12 and 3/8. Michael Frampton Your foot? 11? Donald Brink Specifically. And so you ended up having to ride both toes forward so that you could get a cleaner trim. There was just—there was so much learning on it. And the entire board was made just off-cycle, upcycled offcut pieces. It was such a fun thing. But the last iteration has been—and the first asymmetrical one—they've all been symmetrical to stay pure to not have too many variables within the design elements. It's like, okay, this is an asymmetry doing its thing. It's just design problems. The last one is 6'5.5" by 14 7/8" by 2 3/8"—two and a half-ish. And that board's a brute. See, fantastic. I did take it to a wave this season, got a few waves, got absolutely blasted on a few, but it was like I had to feel it in juice with warm water if I really believed in it, you know? Definitely turned some heads, but yeah, that was not the point. The point is trying to learn who you are and how design works. And it was so—you get so used to it and so comfortable on those boards that other boards actually feel so clunky and tubby and slow. It's... it's just interesting is all it is. Michael Frampton So that board—the last iteration of it—does it have more of a traditional performance rocker as well? Donald Brink Well, all the rules and rules—preconceived numbers—are out the window. So the rocker numbers would be—they're ill-quoted because the board's so narrow and so straight for so long. Thank you... The end points, like, you actually have to put so much more rocker in the board because it's not in the outline. But when you come off the bottom, the board gets onto rail so much sooner, 'cause you don't have a big catamaran, so to speak, that you can fit more rocker in. So you end up surfing way more curve. It's like those old '90s shortboards—were super rocked up. But then it's like, they were narrower. You see the relationship between rail line, rocker, volume, plan shape, and overall wetted surface. It's just fun. Wow. Michael Frampton Have Dane or Pat been interested in surfing this type of board? Donald Brink Yeah, Dane... Dane ran into me at the beach one day and he's always an—I mean, we are such good friends now. It's such a joy to work alongside him and just talk surfing and share boards sometimes. But he looked in the back of the van and he was like, "What's that?" And he was so... it was version two he saw. Because like I said, I haven't shown or shared any of these. It's been a self-guarded exploration. It was a cold day. We were down at Santa, and he just threw on a towel, pulled on a pair of trunks, and just jumped in. He just paddled it straight out and caught three waves, which, to be honest, he didn't surf very well. And the feedback loop of where to stand is learning. And once you know where to stand, then you start putting your surfing together. But he came in and he's like, "Just build me one." And I did build him one of those. So his was number three of those in the series. And yeah, he ended up taking it on a trip and—yeah, it's kind of a memorable story—but pushed it in some very big, incredible waves in Iceland of all places. The only board he took as well. It's such an honor. But yeah, there's some reward to be had. And yet it's still in its infant stages. Michael Frampton Yeah. Yeah, I'm keen to... I'm sure you'll release some photos and footage or something along this. If you can do an art show, I mean. Donald Brink It just doesn't make sense out of context. Even this conversation is all silly. I guess if you're listening to this and you're like, what the hell is this guy on about? My point is, change up your boards and challenge yourself. You'll find out what your surfing is. And you can transpose what you need to work on into any board, and you'll learn quicker and go further faster. I do like narrow boards. And this project will see the light of day in context of its growth. It makes more sense than just talking about a narrow board now. But it's... Michael Frampton An extreme that I haven't seen been explored. I'm exploring extremes. I love my 11-foot glider. That's extremely long, extremely heavy, extremely thick, extremely straight rails. Right. And then you've got it—the people, we've gone as wide as we can, the Potato from Firewire. It doesn't get any more wide and piggy than that. We've gone as short as we can... Donald Brink Right. Michael Frampton We've gone thin. But no one's—this is pioneering stuff, maybe. Donald Brink I actually—it's funny—I started off with trying to be as high as I can arrive for the sensation, like I said. And then what's funny is you actually land up in these thought trails. And before long you'll land up and you start looking at what was essentially the start of it all—was the alaia—because the trees were only that wide. And so when you look at those Hawaiian olas—and I just did make a hollow wooden version just to honor the thoughts of the original ola—I actually haven't ridden that board yet. But within context of the show and the movement of design, I was like, wow. I mean, I think they were designing within parameters of what materials they had. Skinny trees, not many of them. And yet the designs were hydrodynamically sound for the time and therefore would hold up today because water doesn't change. But yeah, it's kind of all been done before, but no... I think you just don't stop exploring the parts that are difficult. And they fascinate me—not to be right—but you find yourself and who you are within those things, you know. Michael Frampton Yeah, but the narrowness hasn't been combined with modern materials, volume, buoyancy, concave, rocker, which is obviously what you're doing. Donald Brink Yeah, for sure. It is fun. And you see parts of the modern shortboard—you pick it up and it starts after a few minutes of just holding it and being around them. They stop looking odd and you kind of—they get comfortable within your mind very quickly. Maybe I'm just around them so much, but I've seen people react that way and turn the reaction into a response. And it's... times one's in this little—your reaction. Yeah, it's funny. Michael Frampton Yeah, I can imagine it's... and it's an extremely responsive, touchy board when you first get it going. Donald Brink My two cents to date on why I don't ride them all the time is—they get really boring unless the waves are past, like... they don't even have to be big. They can be small and somewhat powerful as fun. But once it gets past shoulder-high, you can... you can get out of second and third and into fourth and even sometimes fifth gear. And it's incredible. You get lost in time and space. But anything smaller than that, you just can't get out of second gear. You know how much the board has to give. And you just start frustrating yourself. And these weren't like world-class good waves, right? In terms of a general comment, they were more just—there was enough room on which to move. And unpowerful waves that nobody wanted on those days were all kinds of fun at speeds that were unfathomable on any other board. So there is room for it, I think. Yeah, not for many. Laughs Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. Michael Frampton Well, when you're surfing from rail to rail... Donald Brink Yeah, if you can isolate a rail and have room enough to stay on it for as long as you possibly want to or can... Michael Frampton The width of the surfboard is irrelevant anyway. Isn't that really? Donald Brink That's where I think the gearing comes in. It's like, man, you just start going so fast. You're drawing these long turns over sections and without losing speed because your wetted surface is so much smaller. So if you're having to keep weaving and you're doing it so quickly that—I wouldn't say it's boring, it's just less efficient than you know what it feels like. As soon as you get on the rail, you can just stay on there. So if you've got room to be able to do that, you start doing it. That's all you want to do. And because you can on the narrow board, it's like, man, well, right. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah, I'll tell him. Michael Frampton I imagine it going well in a wave pool, perhaps. Donald Brink I haven't been to a pool since I started making these. I've thought the same thing over and over. Same thing. It's not a huge wave, but it's a focused curl. Yeah, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't go well. Yeah. Michael Frampton When it's very... predictable and consistent. Donald Brink Right. I think you'd want a bigger pool, to be honest. I mean... I wonder if you'd get better lines. I think you'd draw better. And you're not taking off into the tube, which is nice. You're rolling in. So that would be really... of value there. That'd be advantageous. Yeah. Michael Frampton Well, you mentioned them being art. Which segues us into what I wanted to talk about, which was—is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you subscribe and listen to next week's episode, part two with Donald Brink: "Is Surfing an Art or a Sport—or Both?" We heard a little bit about that in last week's episode with Tony Roberts. He's on the sports side. For more surfing podcast episodes, there is a huge back catalogue. And of course, if you want more tips, some free PDFs and advice, etc., go tosurfmastery.com [http://surfmastery.com]. Until next week, keep surfing. 121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink (part 1) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV1iQPlQrzw&list=PLOIoGM_c3zEOeXrgrbCxmC3xNmfMisAEr&index=1] For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.