What Is Maturity?

What Is Maturity?

What does true maturity actually look like? Is it age? Experience? Having the right answers? Many of us grew up assuming we would recognize maturity when we saw it. We looked to parents, pastors, leaders, and institutions to show us what it meant to be wise, trustworthy, and faithful. Yet over time, some of those assumptions have been challenged. People we admired have disappointed us. Systems we trusted have fallen short. And if we're honest, we've disappointed ourselves too. So where does that leave us? This week, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen wrestle with a different vision of maturity—one shaped less by certainty and control and more by truth-telling, curiosity, humility, and a growing orientation toward the heart of God. Drawing from Jeremiah's lament, Micah 6:8, and their own stories, they explore why maturity is often forged in the midst of struggle rather than certainty. They also reflect on the gift of trustworthy companions. These are people who help us ask better questions, tell the truth about our lives, and remind us that growth was never meant to happen alone. After all, one of the clearest signs of maturity may be knowing when it's time to reach out to others. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ [https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/] If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org [cclayton@theallendercenter.org]

A Survivor's Story of Trafficking and Hope with Kate Ouimette-Wedell

This week, Dan and Rachael sit down with survivor, advocate, and Narrative Focused Trauma Care alumni Kate Ouimette-Wedell for a conversation that is both heartbreaking and deeply hopeful. After moving to Los Angeles to pursue a career in music, Kate was trafficked and spent more than a decade in the commercial sex industry. In this episode, she shares part of her story with remarkable courage, offering insight into the realities of exploitation, the long road of recovery, and the resilience that makes healing possible. Together, they explore the power of story, the importance of being seen and believed, and why healing often begins when someone is willing to sit with us in our pain rather than rush to fix it. Through her own healing journey and her work with survivors through Cherished LA, Kate bears witness to a hope rooted in the belief that every person has immeasurable worth and that no story is beyond the reach of compassion, restoration, and delight. Please note: This episode includes discussions of human trafficking, sexual exploitation, abuse, and trauma. Listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ [https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/] If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org [cclayton@theallendercenter.org]

Faith, Power, and the Cost of Discipleship with Rev. Rob Schenck

Faith, power, and politics have become deeply intertwined in our culture, leaving many Christians asking hard questions: Is this what following Jesus is meant to look like? And how do we stay faithful when the way of Jesus seems so different from the voices claiming to speak for him? In this episode, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen welcome Rev. Rob Schenck back to the podcast for an honest conversation about power, discipleship, and the state of American Christianity. Together, they explore the difference between the way of Jesus and the pursuit of control, the cost of discipleship, and why humility, grief, and love matter more than ever. If you've felt confused, discouraged, or unsettled by the intersection of faith and politics, we hope this conversation offers both perspective and hope as we consider what it means to follow Jesus in a complicated time. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ [https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/]

Is There Still More To Your Story?

Is there still more to your story? It's a question that can feel surprising, especially if you've spent years reflecting on your past, pursuing healing, or engaging your story. Yet in this conversation, Dr. Dan Allender, Rachael Clinton Chen, and Wendell Moss explore how story continues to reveal new insights about who we are, how we've been shaped, and how God is meeting us in the present. You'll get a glimpse into what story work actually looks like in a Story Workshop or Narrative Focused Trauma Care® training, and why returning to meaningful moments from our lives can open the door to greater compassion, deeper understanding, and unexpected freedom. Whether you're new to story engagement or have been doing this work for years, you're invited to consider what might still be waiting for you in your story. Listener Resources: * Download our free guide, How to Engage Your Story: http://theallendercenter.org/story [http://theallendercenter.org/story] * Learn more about Narrative Focused Trauma Care® (NFTC) Training: https://theallendercenter.org/trainings [https://theallendercenter.org/trainings] * Engage your story in a Story Workshop with the Allender Center: http://theallendercenter.org/workshops [http://theallendercenter.org/workshops] Work with an individual trained in NFTC: http://theallendercenter.org/directory [http://theallendercenter.org/directory] About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ [https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/] If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org [cclayton@theallendercenter.org]

Trauma, Shame, and Contempt

What happens when shame takes root in a story? And how does contempt become one of the ways we learn to survive it? Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore the complicated relationship between shame and contempt, and why understanding these dynamics matters so deeply for healing and human connection. Shame can leave us feeling exposed, powerless, defective, or alone. And contempt often emerges as a strategy of protection: through self-criticism, defensiveness, withdrawal, rage, sarcasm, superiority, or humiliation. You'll hear reflections on: * why contempt often forms in response to pain and powerlessness * what trauma responses like fight, flight, freeze, and fawn look like in moments of shame * how to remain grounded in dignity and belovedness when faced with contempt This conversation invites us into deeper curiosity, compassion, and discernment — especially in a cultural moment increasingly marked by outrage, dehumanization, and contempt. If you'd like to explore these themes more deeply, we invite you to join Rachael Clinton Chen for the upcoming live training, The Art of Story Engagement, on June 13. Together, you'll explore more deeply how contempt shapes our stories — and how learning to recognize these dynamics in ourselves and others can open the door to greater wisdom, healing, and care. You can learn more at theallendercenter.org/events [http://theallendercenter.org/events] About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ [https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/] If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org [cclayton@theallendercenter.org] *This episode contains some explicit language. Listener discretion is advised.