212 - Think Like the Circuit: Mastering Electrical Diagnostics

212 - Think Like the Circuit: Mastering Electrical Diagnostics

212 - Think Like the Circuit: Mastering Electrical Diagnostics June 23, 2026 - 01:02:01 Show Summary: Electrical diagnostics become much easier when technicians understand the fundamentals instead of relying on guesswork or the parts cannon. Jim Cokonis and Nick Pope share real shop stories that highlight how critical thinking and a solid understanding of circuits lead to faster and more accurate repairs. They explain how wiring diagrams voltage drop testing and logical troubleshooting can eliminate costly misdiagnoses. The discussion also explores continuous learning teamwork and building stronger communication inside the shop. Finally they challenge technicians to close the gap between thinking they know the answer and proving it with proper testing.   Host(s): Kent Bullard, CCO, The Institute for Automotive Business Excellence [http://wearetheinstitute.com] Nick Pope, Industry Coach, The Institute for Automotive Business Excellence [http://wearetheinstitute.com]   Jim Cokonis, Technical Director, Today's Class [http://todaysclass.com] Show Highlights: [00:00:00] – Learn why electrical knowledge is essential for every repair today. [00:05:05] – Jim shares a blower motor misdiagnosis that changed his testing approach forever. [00:08:00] – Nick explains how one corroded ground created a lasting lesson. [00:11:45] – A transmission replacement failed because the real problem was electrical. [00:20:05] – Learn how wiring diagrams guide faster and more accurate diagnostics. [00:24:10] – Follow current flow instead of guessing where the fault exists. [00:31:30] – Free circuit simulators help technicians visualize electrical theory and testing. [00:39:20] – Small daily learning habits create top performing technicians over time. [00:44:30] – Think like a circuit to improve communication across the entire shop. [00:49:55] – Strong fundamentals create confident technicians and accurate diagnostics every time.   In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode.   👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/iMqCrP4N6JU [https://youtu.be/iMqCrP4N6JU]   Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this!   Links & Resources:  * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com].   Episode Transcript: Kent Bullard: Hello everybody, and welcome to today's webinar. We are s- kicking off our technical training series. I gotta tell you, the content that we have today is awesome. We've got some incredible instructors with us and some really fun stuff we're gonna cover. So to get things started, I'd like to introduce the webinar. Here we go. Today we're gonna be covering mastering electrical diagnostics, as well as some critical thinking skills. Where's everybody coming from? I'm out of Utah today. We've got some people on the East Coast. Our trainers, instructors are on the East Coast. Let us know in the chat. We're gonna be watching that as we go through this. Our real goal with this series was to dive into a lot of the technical skills, but at the same time some of the critical skills that you need to be a good technician in the shop, to work well with your the skills that you need to develop, the team that... and relationships you need to develop. And so we had a mashup of technical and business training, some development training here, and it's awesome. I've loved to see how these guys have put this content together. Today what we're gonna do is we're gonna dive into some technical content, some critical thinking skills. At the end of this training, we're gonna open up for a Q&A, and we'll actually hang on a few minutes past, maybe 10, 15 minutes after the hour, to answer any additional questions that you guys might have. So first off, we're gonna be asking some questions throughout, so let's practice this. What tool do you guys tend to start with or rely on more when starting electrical diagnostics? And type in the chat either a one or a two to answer the poll. One, a scan tool, or two, an altimeter. Let us know in the comments section. So looks like we've got Southeastern Tennessee, we've got Wyoming, South Florida. Oh my gosh, Milwaukee, Brookfield, Wisconsin, New Jersey. My goodness. So we've got that poll going. Let us know do you tend to start with a scan tool or with your multimeter when you start electrical diagnostics? At the same time, if you guys have any questions I've been in- involved in a lot of these trainings. I've done-- gone and taught classes. I tend to enjoy open discussion and conversation. Now, in this type of circumstance it can be a little challenging, but hey, that's what I'm here for. I'm gonna be your guys' voice with the instructors. So if you have questions or comments or you wanna add to the dialogue, I strongly urge you guys to let us know in the chat, and I'm gonna answer those questions for you or ask those questions for you so we can get them answered. At the same time, let's keep things positive and constructive. We wanna make sure that questions get answered. We don't wanna, maybe punish somebody who, if they don't know what's going on or they do have those curious questions, that's what this space is for, right? So we wanna keep things positive and constructive and again, take notes, key takeaways, and most important, we want you guys to have a lot of fun. So before we introduce our instructors, what I'd like to ask is, what would you rather leave with today? Actually, do we have poll results for that? Can you post those for the first question? All right. Let's try this one then, guys. What would you rather leave with today? Number one, one big idea that you can take back, or number two, several practical tips that you can deploy in the shop. While you guys answer either one or two in the chat, and I think it's just a one or a two. I'm not quite sure how the poll system works, but there we go. We've got a few there. Several practical tips. Love that. The guys that we have on here, we've got Jim Kokonis and Nick Pope. These guys have been some incredible instructors. I'd love to bring them on and introduce them. I'm very excited for the content they're gonna share with you today. We've got a lot to dive into. Welcome guys. Thank you for joining us. And Jim, I'm gonna hand things over to you. Jim Cokonis: Awesome. Welcome everybody. For those that don't know me, Nick and I had a conversation, and I always start off classes with, "My name's Jim Kokonis, and I don't know everything." We were joking about making the title under my name Eternal Student. But I have a question for you, and this is an official poll, but just give us a yeah or a no. Has anybody in the room ever had their hind end put in a bucket and carried out of the shop by a car that was being difficult? I have. I have, and I'm gonna share a story with you early on. But when we think about electricity, i- is there anything on the car that isn't controlled, monitored or communicated with electrical anymore? You don't, you can't even do suspension work and brake work without understanding electricity and systems and how those components work. I'm seeing some yeses in the chat. W- if you're, if you say no to that, I'm like, "What are you working on? Wrought iron gates? I don't know." We've all been humbled by a car, right? Nick? We've all had that, and what I wanted to share with you is that I had a long time ago in my career, I've got a experience highlights. I was diagnosing a vehicle with an inoperative blower motor, and I had bought one of those new-fangled logic probes. You hook it up to power, and you go around and you touch places on the circuit and right? If you touch something that had power, it goes meep, gives you a green light, and you touch something where it's supposed to be on the ground side of the circuit or the low side of the circuit, it goes merp, and it gives you a red light. So I go to the blower motor, and I get my meep, and I get my merp, and I call a blow- call a blower motor. And I put the blower motor in it, and it didn't fix it. For the longest time I had that logic probe. And it was great for some uses, but I had that thing in my toolbox with the pigtail cut off of it to remind me that electrical testing has other aspects of it that we've gotta keep in mind. So with that said- This slide was just an introduction to that conversation. But here's a, here's an interesting one. This is an example of one of the questions, not how it's presented, but the basic question that's on the platform. And this question is- questions aren't designed to test with today's class. They're designed to teach through the question. This particular question is looking for an understanding, and Nick and I had a conversation about that, and he's gonna chime in here in a minute. But the question basically says, which of the following choices apply to testing a circuit or a device with an ohmmeter? And these are the four options. Now, this is what we call a multi-answer question. And so on the real platform, it's always gonna say select all that apply. And it's gonna indicate through a couple different ways that there's more than one answer here. So the- there are two correct answers on this. And a lot of people get this one wrong, be honest with you. And so when they answer the question, they're gonna get a response. If they get it right, it'll look like this. Now, this is an actual screen capture. And it says that it can determine if a wire is completely broken and it can tell if a device has an open circuit. Then it ... An incorrect answer is it can determine if several strands inside of a wire are broken and it confirms if a device is good. What do you guys think about that? Put a comment in the chat. But Nick, what do you think about this? Nick Pope: Jim, this one really resonates with me. I would be lying if I said this does not trigger a memory that stuck with me most of my career. We've all had those, and this one for me started shortly after high school. I was working at the dealership and I had a customer vehicle with the complaint of a flashing four-wheel drive light, and come to find out I had that classic no communication with the four-by-four module. And upon traveling through the Ford trouble tree, I came to the point where I was presented that I needed to replace the module. And I put the module in, went through the programming process, and lo and behold, it was not repaired. And at that point- I had that gut-wrenching feeling. I was sick to my stomach. I felt horrible. Went back, went through the motions, not once, but twice, and ended up coming to the same result. So then at that point, I was embarrassed, I was frustrated I felt horrible. I, I spoke with my manager, and his automatic response shocked me. He automatically walked me over to the foreman, and the shop foreman came over and wanted to help walk me through this. And that really helped me feel a lot better aside from, the obvious, right? And we got to the realization that there was a corroded wire. So it's... in specific, it was a corroded ground wire. And, I knew right away what I did wrong, and I... it just slipped my mind, and at that point I realized a really valuable lesson that has stuck with me my whole life. And, this ties into, resistance is as only as good as the circuit is that can withstand the load of that circuit. And now this is something that I've been able to carry on and share with, all the people I have worked with throughout my career, and it was a very valuable lesson in so many ways, shapes, and forms. However, it really got me to the point where I understood that I have all of these resources around me, resources and service information, resources with tools, with my experience, with my peers, and I need to use them and I need to think for myself to really know why the failure occurred, how it occurred, if there were any other variables to it, to ensure that it is repaired properly and it does not happen a- again. And the one thing I wanna just point out, Jim, is in this process, not only did I have so many great takeaways that stuck with me my entire career, however, there were people there that were there to support me and help me learn this lesson. And yes, it cost the shop money, however, the silver lining is when we have people around us that are willing to invest in us and lift us up in these moments, it sticks and those are the really valuable things of wanting to continue and grow in our careers as technicians. Jim Cokonis: Thanks, Nick. Costing a shop money. Scott made a comment in chat that says an ohmmeter can only tell you when a circuit is bad. There's some other fancy types of tools and things that we can use to see very small changes, but most technicians when they're using an ohmmeter, and they love to give you... And I know Ford is "Check for continuity on this wire, check for continuity on this wire." It only takes, one or two strands to get an ohmmeter to go, "Yep, beep," and give you a continuity tone. And yet it can cost you money. So when we look at that, th- this is a, this was a real vehicle. And you can put your comments into the chat too. Here was a vehicle that had set multiple codes and the transmission was in limp mode All right? And so I've got a, I've got an example of the codes that were set, and I've got an example of the wiring diagram that's on this slide here. And w- we're not gonna dive into everything here, but this vehicle came in and the shop diagnosed it as a bad transmission, and they replaced the transmission. And it didn't fix the vehicle. And so the vehicle got a new PCM put in it. And the reason I know that is because they called me to program it at the time, and I'm like, "Where are you getting this PCM from?" And at the time, they w- the company they were buying it from would bench program this older GM because they had the tools to do it, and they would do it free of charge because they were buying the PCM from them. So I'm like, "They'll do it for you." So they did that. Unbeknownst to me customer was in a rental car while they were trying to figure this thing out 'cause they didn't get it back in time. So the customer's in a rental car. They put a transmission in it. That didn't fix it. They've had a PCM put in it. That didn't fix it. They had the transmission rebuilder, well-known company, send out a test box, and they ran through phone support and did a whole bunch of tests with this specialty box, and they said, "We're gonna send you another transmission." So now it's had a second transmission put in it, and it's still not fixed. And then I got another phone call. "Can you come out and look at this?" And of course, in their mind you have the factory scan tool for this General Motors vehicle. Can you come out here and see if you can see something that we can't see? And so I went out there. I did use my scan tool, but I used their service information and got a look at this thing. I went out and scanned the vehicle. I came in and went to the service information. I went back out. I found a- an area of the wiring that I was interested in. I found a problem. I took a jumper wire and connected from a fusible link to the output of a specific fuse, and then we took and drove the truck and the transmission was normal. Total elapsed time, 20 minutes. What do you guys think was wrong? Any thoughts? Anybody care to, to venture a guess? Kent Bullard: Nick, what do you think? Nick Pope: Gosh. Jim, could it have been a corroded wire? Jim Cokonis: It could have been. It could have been. I'm gonna highlight an area. You see all these shift solenoids? Down here on the right-hand side of this wiring diagram, if you look at that you see the splice S116, and that the PCM shows that's an ignition feed. So the PCM knows when the ignition is turned on, right? And then that wire feeds all of the shift solenoids. I like what- And then the shift solenoids are controlled by the PCM. Kent Bullard: I was gonna, I was gonna add, Scott said something interesting. He said, "There's three fuses in the world: good, bad, and missing." And he says, "Oh, four now, not seated properly." Jim Cokonis: I think I know Scott. If it, at least I know the name. We don't have faces on here, but anyway. Yeah, Scott. Yeah. It... and you're exactly right. But wait a minute, I'm gonna add a fifth. Incorrectly made fuses that are not fuses, they're pieces of wire that burn up harnesses when they should pop. Okay? And we've seen this in the world as well. So now we can make that into five. The whole sum total of the problem with this thing is this particular vehicle had a specific spot in the ignition switch that completed this circuit. And that's coming from a fuse, and I'm sorry the way this went on here, it cut it off. But that fuse is coming from an output of the ignition switch, and it feeds that transmission power. And all of those codes were all circuit-related electrical codes. And if we think about that, if we understand how electricity works, there was a reason why I looked at the codes, I looked at a wiring diagram, and I went straight to a specific spot on the truck to get to the fuse block because it was an easy place to test That computer is doing a voltage drop test at one point in the circuit. We're feeding it voltage, and it is saying that coming through these solenoids, I don't have enough voltage to control this thing. It's declaring a circuit problem A smoke fuse. Yeah, Michael, definitely a smoke fuse. So that's all the computer's doing when we're checking, con- continual component monitoring. It's looking at powers and grounds, and if we understand electricity and we look at this thing, how many of you guys have ever seen a code that says circuit open or shorted to ground? Wait a minute How can that be? How can it be those two different extremes? Back in the day, the, we didn't run a bunch of extra wires, we didn't have a bunch of extra circuits, and the computer, if it wasn't seeing voltage when it should, then either I'm on the control side of this device, like on, on the ground side of this solenoid, and the voltage can't come through the solenoid, so maybe I have an open in the circuit, or this wire is broken, or this wire is shorted to ground, which is making the voltage drop there, and the computer can't see it because it's only looking at one spot. And so the way I used to describe this is the computer only knows what it can see. If that computer was monitoring this little yellow wire here, and it also had the ability to monitor here and monitor up here and monitor over there, it could tell you exactly where the break was. Oh, I've lost voltage between these two points. But the computer can't do that. That's our job. So how well do we understand electricity? And so just like Nick said, he, when he had that one early in his career, it told a, taught him a lesson. When I misdiagnosed that blower motor, it taught me a lesson. And then, 25, almost 30 years ago, I was going out and doing this type of stuff for other shops, and was one of the first mobile diag and programming guys out there, and I can't tell you how many times you'd get there and this complex problem that had spent, three weeks in the shop and had a customer in a rental car turned out to be a pretty straightforward electrical problem So with that in mind, let's take a look at this one. This is older. Some of you guys will recognize this. But let's say we had a circuit code for fuel injector number five. So we had a P0205 code. If we had that, if we actually had that as a code, what is the most likely area that you would look in? Where would you start? Throw something into the comments Kent Bullard: Michael said "Could I watch a recording of the class?" Yes, we're gonna give recordings afterwards. We'll post those and share those out, Michael. Same with the resources and links. Let us know in the chat, guys. Jim Cokonis: Glad to have you here, Mike Kent Bullard: Nobody yet Jim Cokonis: Nobody, nobody's put anything in- Anybody have any ideas? Look, I'm gonna say something right now. This is a safe space. There will be no teasing, laughing, groaning. We all make mistakes, and I'm not gonna go, ha, you're wrong." That's not what this is about. This is about just, I don't know about you guys, but if you've ever been to a big event or whatever, You'll realize that the networking and talking through things, we think we need to learn hands-on, but actually if we have a conversation about something and we talk ideas and methods through, we actually are gonna retain probably about 60% of those conversations. We have some answers. When the only thing that gets a little bit past that- Kent Bullard: So Jim, it looks like Scott had said injector would be my starting point. Shad said fuse 15 amp, and then Scott also added the rat chewed wiring. Jim Cokonis: Okay. Okay. So remember what I was talking about with a voltage drop test, all right? As opposed to a resistance test, a voltage drop test. When this computer is looking, and I'm sorry, this is not a full good wiring diagram, but I wanted to be really detailed in. This is one of those old sequential fuel injection centralized injectors. This is old school, but I could have picked anything that has sequential fuel injection. When you look at this, each one of these w- pink wires is power to a fuel injector, okay? And then each injector is individually controlled by a specific driver circuit in the computer. So the fact that I'm setting a fuel injector number five circuit code But I'm not setting a circuit code for any of the other injectors Do you think this could be a fuse? Now I know somebody answered fuse, and I'm not picking on them, not at all. But I know a lot of technicians were taught by someone somewhere, always check your fuses. Now there's some validity to that, so I'm not knocking it. But my goodness if we have a situation where four things are fed off the same fuse and three of them are working, we can probably take the idea of the fuse being an issue and move it down in priority. Now- Michael- If it's injector- Michael said test the control side ... number five. Kent Bullard: Huh? Michael said, Test on the control side. Jim Cokonis: Test on the control side or at the device. But Mike, I don't disagree with you, but one of the things you have to realize, and this is why I love wiring diagrams for understanding what I'm gonna do with electricity. This connector point right here at D10, that connection, there's a splice and there's two wires coming right out of that connector. I could actually have a problem where one of them's making connection, and so that's why fuel injector two's not having an issue, but fuel injector five is. So that could be on the feed side. Now, if I go down to this central injection harness and I go along and I probe at E, D, B, H, J, and L, if I can get to those and they all have power, and then I go over here to this black and white wire at pin A and I don't have voltage, I've got it here and I don't have it here. Where's the open? It's at the injector. But if I have power coming out here and I have it all the way to the computer, could I potentially have a bad driver? Could. But if I have it coming out here at pin A on this black and white wire and I don't have it at the computer, now I'm looking for a broken wire on that ground side. Does all this, is all this making sense? Is it, are you seeing like this logical thought process of how we go after it? Nick Pope: Seems like you're going about it the, with the path of least resistance, Jim. Jim Cokonis: Ba-dum-bum. Yes. Yes. We don't want electrical work to be revolting, right? Sorry. This is one. And this cooling fan setup has been around forever. I'm gonna zoom in on this thing a little bit You guys have seen these General Motors cooling fans with the three relays used to control the fans. And if you see, it's got a cooling span low-feed relay, low-speed relay a span a fan speed control relay, that's an interesting term, and then a high-speed relay. And if we look at this there's multiple fuses here, right? There is there's a fuse here that's a 10 amp, and that's on the control side. Then we have this 40 amp fuse that's feeding the fan. That's hot at all times, right? And then we have cool fan high fuse, 40 amp. So we got two 40 amp fuses here. So how does this thing actually work? Here's my two fans down here. Left cooling fan, right cooling fan And I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this 'cause we don't have it, and I need to get this thing turned over to Nick. But this fan, if I understand this diagram, when this relay, the low-speed relay is turned on, if I trace this, right? The power comes down from this K1 fuse, 40 amp. It goes through this relay and it goes down through this fan Then it comes up and goes up through this relay, and if this relay is normally open, it comes back down and it actually goes through the second fan to ground. So how are the fans wired? Are they in series or are they in parallel? Kent Bullard: In series? Jim Cokonis: They're in series. Okay? So if two identical devices are in series and we understand our electrical theory, they're gonna share source voltage. So if the car is running at 13 and a half volts, each one of these fans, if they're the same size, they're gonna share the voltage. They're gonna run at low speed. And then when we toggle on the switchover relay and the high-speed relay, basically what happens is when we toggle over here, we put the one fan directly to ground, so now it has full source voltage, and the other fan gets fed full source voltage. And so now these things will run at full speed. And I have watched time and time again where somebody will get a vehicle in and it's getting awful warm and the air conditioner doesn't work real well, and they've got one fan that runs all the time When the car gets hot, nothing happens and then one fan comes on high. So what can be wrong? It can be one of the relays, it could be one of the wires, could be one of the fuses, but we have to look at this circuit holistically and go after it. And so with that being said, I'm gonna show you guys a couple of things that you can use. And Kent, do you have the do you have the webpage? I do. The browser? Yep. Drop that in chat for everybody. I have used these simulators from the University of Colorado Boulder to help techs learn electrical and description and operation and theory for a lot of years. I don't even want to talk about it. But I have a couple of these open, and a lot of people have found these helpful. You can actually set up an electrical circuit, and I built this one already, and you can measure the battery voltage And it says 13 and a half volts, and I can actually adjust the battery voltage. And then I can go over and say, okay, with this circuit working, how much voltage is actually reaching the bulb? And I'm showing conventional theory. And oh, it says 13 and a quarter volts because I have the ability to add resistivity, which is the real thing that happens when a wire is carrying current. It's gonna have a little bit of internal resistance, and it's gonna cause a little bit of a drop. If there happened to be too much resistance, I would see that get bigger. I can do a voltage drop directly across a load. And so now out of 13 and a half volts from the battery, this light is getting 12.17. So is that because I've got a problem somewhere, or is that just the normal amount? And I can adjust that a little bit. Hang on a second There, now it's less than a volt lost in the wiring. So you can actually test along and see if there's an issue, and then if there is an issue, it could be because there's additional resistance somewhere Now look what happens when we start testing voltage We see 13 and a half there. We still have seven volts after the bulb. That's because it is taking energy get across that resistance, and that could be bad wire, a bad connection, a bad ground. And so this little simulator can help you have the time to play around with these concepts and prove them to yourself. And by the way, when you see a guy that's new to a scope and he's "I wanna check the injector current with my scope, which wire do I go around?" It's because they don't really understand that the current flow on a series circuit is the same no matter where you check, and this allows you to reinforce those concepts in your head. You guys think that this thing is useful? Kent Bullard: Oh yeah. Jim Cokonis: If you got a, if you've got a person you're trying to help learn electricity, probably one of the best references. Nick, you wanna take it away and talk about putting this all together? Nick Pope: Yeah, absolutely. And building on what you just shared with us, Jim, we had some conversation and electricity's tough to teach. It's tough to understand because you can't see it. So having these illustrations really helps, and it's a really powerful free resource to use. So I encourage those of you with us to, to use these and share these with people All right, so we're gonna talk a little bit about using our minds. And earlier in my story regarding the four-wheel drive module, I talked about the powerful takeaway I had a- about learning to think for myself and using the resources around me. I'd like to go a little bit deeper into that, and we'll just start with some of the items on the left here. So we have our scan tools, our wiring diagrams, service information, oscilloscopes, specialty tools. These are all tools that we can use. Now we do need to spend time to understand how to use them and how they work. And I'm gonna just pick on myself. When I was using the multimeter, I never once even thought about the amount of voltage that's induced into the circuit when I would be testing the resistance, right? And it's a small amount, and that's why when I ran that test to check for resistance that I had an acceptable reading. So those little tiny caveats to this multimeter, and really any tool that we're gonna be using, make a big difference. So it's not something we can just pull out of a toolbox and use. Understanding them understanding how we can read a wiring schematic is huge. Jim did a really good job pointing out how we can use a wiring diagram as a map and we can pinpoint certain areas to, to isolate. If we have several codes that are gonna be related to a certain circuit, that's gonna give us a really good direction to, to jump onto to look at and hopefully find the problem. Those are just resources that we can start to use once we understand them. The other resources I wanna talk about are on the right side. Technical training experience, mentors and peers, real world testing, curiosity and questioning. I can't stress how important it is to be curious and to question things. Take advantage of the situations in the shop and lean on those people that are around you. It really shouldn't be a competition. At the end of the day, we're all in this together and we're all gonna have our strong areas that we are really talented in. However, the more we work together and help build each other up, the better of an atmosphere we're gonna have, the more we're all gonna learn and grow together, and that's the mindset we want. The moment that we close that door on being curious or wanting to not learn or grow anymore is the moment we are stopped dead in our tracks. And with the way the industry has been going for as long as I can remember, it's constantly changing, right? We're always coming up with new innovations. There's new technology, new trends. It's endless. And Jim, what are your thoughts? Do you think that to stay ahead a little bit it's great to just try to stay on the cutting edge, to stay current with technology? Kent Bullard: Jim, I think you're muted, sir Jim Cokonis: Yes, I muted myself. I have a f- a friend that has a nickname called Rural Joe, and some people in the group probably will know who I'm referring to, who, who made the comment about a second 40 hours. And I pushed back on him a little bit that it only takes a little bit of effort to stay at the top of your game. And so the way I look at it, Nick, is Michael Jordan didn't do his practice only on the basketball court. Best golfers in the world still work with co- coaches and they still practice and they have practice sessions and train. And putting the time in to do some of that is how you keep up with the technology and you learn the new technique. But if you go try and pick up that fancy new thing without learning anything about it, it can actually cost you time in the shop. So where do you do that? So yeah, absolutely. I think you've gotta, you gotta put some effort in to stay up on it. Kent Bullard: Do you think it's a give and take? And I'm just gonna make some assumptions, guys, and I hope I'm not to- off base or putting myself out there. But do you think that s- some, in some cases technicians are looking at those questions, those sidebars where I might have somebody who's younger than me is asking these questions, it's taking away from my ability to produce hours, which can hit my, wallet. And I would just add on that, that I think sometimes we can get into... 'Cause I've done it myself. There's times where I've, "Hey, I can't help with this or that because I'm really just trying to get this thing done." But at the same time, that investment of the training, having somebody else with additional resources or knowledge or experience, or even just yourself investing in that additional insight, that frees up efficiency later on. So it's a small investment early on, but you'll make the dividends back later. Do you think that's About right or in that ballpark? Nick Pope: It- Jim Cokonis: Go ahead. I'd like to know what the people in the audience are thinking, but everybody seems to Kent Bullard: be quiet. Michael added it's the back 40, he said, by the way. Jim Cokonis: Yeah, I s- I saw that. It made me chuckle. I'm sure he'll make a meme of it soon Kent Bullard: So Michael a different Michael added, "Brian Pollack is a smart guy. By practicing new tests, he is becoming proficient with them by doing his second 40 hours of learning." Jim Cokonis: Yeah, he Mike knew exactly who I was referring to. And yet this person is also, a single dad and a business owner and everything else, and he's trying to juggle it all like we all are. And we're not telling somebody that if you wanna be, if you wanna be the absolute pinnacle, that you've gotta, work 100 hours a week. I heard a thing a long time ago, Nick, you may actually agree with this, but if you spend even 15 minutes a day doing some independent study or learning in your chosen field, that it's only a few number of years before you're in the top 10%. Nick Pope: Yeah, 100%. And I, building on that, I read a study where if you spend an hour a day working at anything over the course of the year, you're gonna be in, in that top 10%. So I think the trend here that is a commonly shared view is we don't need to spend, 40 hours a week in addition to training and learning. If we want to and we love that, great, go for it. That's awesome. However, we can take off smaller chunks, and those are going to compound and in the long run, in the grand scheme of things, we're gonna be able to maintain and continue to grow. And it doesn't have to be a one-all be-all with one resource. There are many different resources. So those are really wonderful things to take advantage of. But the point of this slide really ultimately is the most important tool that we have is in our minds, right? It's it is our minds. And when we think about that, how are we sharpening that? Jim Cokonis: Against other minds Nick Pope: Exactly Jim Cokonis: So there... how many of the names that are in the chat do you guys recognize? 'Cause I'm recognizing a bunch of these guys. And they are, to my knowledge, they're people who put in the extra time. So I would really be interested in hearing from them what do they think is a good approach to continue the opportunities for these types of conversations, of get-togethers, of building these groups where You know, because I don't know how Nick feels, but I know me. I don't have to be the smartest person in the room. As a matter of fact, I don't really wanna be the smartest person in the room. I wanna be in a room of people who challenge the way I think. I love it when I'm teaching a class and I have a student challenge me because it's like it could be my issue. Maybe I didn't explain it well. Now I have an opportunity to get better with what I'm doing, or my tongue might've gotten in front of my eye teeth and I didn't see what I was saying, and so I said it wrong. If nobody ever speaks up, everybody that was in the class gets hurt by that. I, Kent Bullard: I- Jim Cokonis: And so I wanna know what these guys think about what can we do with... there's 20 groups for owners, or should there be 20 groups for shop techs? Maybe we can handle a 40 group. I don't know. But should there be jam sessions like this that are deliberate with a chosen topic that gives us an opportunity to learn skills from each other? I have a- I'm just brainstorming here. Go ahead. Kent Bullard: I have a thought, Jim. So first off- ... I just wanted to bring in, Michael had said everyone should be attending, the ASTA event that's coming in September, where Jim and Brian are gonna be teaching some great classes. I think, and for me, this has been the differentiator, 'cause I flunked, barely graduated high school, totally flunked out of college. I've never considered myself a very smart guy, but I did surround myself with the tools and the resources, and definitely the people, that if ever I came into a problem, there was resources that I could lean on to help me move past that point. And I think there is a distinct difference between that back 40 that we were talking about, and it has to do with being proactive or reactive, intentional practice versus just reaction. So you're gonna be going through a lot of these things in your general day-to-day. You're gonna encounter these vehicles. You're gonna run through some of these, diagrams and these maps, and you're gonna deal the, with these problems, and those are all opportunities. You're gonna have online sessions like this. That's another opportunity. You're gonna have conversations with people about this specific webinar in your shop. That's another opportunity to gain some competency, to have that micro-learning opportunity, and it's whether or not you're intentional about it. If you are paying attention, if you are leveraging that and understanding this is an opportunity for me to gain a little bit of insight and a little bit of experience, that's where I think you get that compounding effect over time, where you have those opportunities because it's intentional and it's not reactionary. Does that make sense? Jim Cokonis: No, I agree. I just, the, Scott made a comment in the chat that back in the day that's what IATN was, and we used to have different chat rooms, and we used to have the forums and things. And there's still venues like that. But the other thing was there were events. I can remember going to to Toady's house and shop. We called him Toady because we called him Tech of the Year. But a guy that was in South Carolina hosted a whole bunch of people that came from around the country for a jam session one weekend, and we brought different tools and techniques and showed each other things and had fellowship and beverages and learned. So was it vision? No, but it was a very, it was a microcosm of vision. Oh, Tim. Yeah Scott remembers Tim Taylor. Yeah, not that Tim Taylor. But yeah we've been, we've b- we've done events like this, and I guess what I'm looking for is and Big Bird, Michael is out there calling me the Greek philosopher 'cause he knows me too. It's one of those deals where we need to figure out, 'cause What, what is going to change the industry? And I don't, I think the only thing that's gonna do it is us. That's just me. Kent Bullard: Nick, did you have a final thought on- Nick Pope: I do. Absolutely. And I wanna build on your statement, Jim, what is going to change the industry? And I also look at it as, how can we improve the industry? How can we rise above to the occasion, to the challenge, to find the resources, find the people, create the community where it's going to allow everybody to accelerate consistently? I have one more slide that I'd like to talk about, and this is gonna tie the team together in the shop. And this works out really well because we're on the electrical topic, and I want us to just think about for a moment how we can think like a circuit, and we can think about when we're linking our technician through our service advisor through the customer, right? When we have a complete circuit, our communication is clear. At any point, if we run into a resistance issue, that can slow down that process, right? In any of those areas, the technician could have a delay and maybe get caught up looking at something on the vehicle and then delay communication to the advisor, and then that trickles down to the customer, right? Just like on a vehicle, if we have high resistance in a circuit, it's gonna slow down our voltage. And again, the process is delayed. So thinking about this the power of continuity, not only on a car electronically speaking, but in, in our buildings and our businesses, is extremely important and valuable. I do realize that sometimes there are disconnects in really any of these areas. And I- I'm curious, I wanna know for those of you listening and that are with us, in the chat type in, and I want to know if your team is connected or disconnected or has resistance. So type in disconnected, connected, or resistance. I'm curious to know. This is extremely important. And when we're firing on our cylinders, our team dynamic is going to be outstanding, and it's just gonna continue to build a really great environment where we want to be at work every day. So I don't see anybody chiming in, so hopefully you do. I would really love to hear if you are connected, disconnected, or have resistance with your team. Jim, as we get to an end here I wanna share something with you and everyone with us. There are... There's one thing that I'd like to talk about, and it's the space between, and we're gonna look at the space between thinking and knowing. So we've all had multiple issues where we feel we've been here before, we've seen this before. We get that technician intuition where we have a code and a symptom and we just know we've been there. Now we think this is it. It's so tempting to just say, "Gosh, this is just what it needs and I'm gonna send it and we're gonna let it go." So tempting, right? We can get that one hour for our labor diag and move on to the next thing. Most of the time, does that work? I don't know. I'm not gonna say anything there, but I think you guys know where I'm going with that. But on the other side, there's knowing. Knowing isn't always just for you. It should be, but it should be for our customers, it should be for our business. That's the valuable part of doing what we do to the T. The value in going deep to find out the real why even though we feel like we've been there before. It might feel unnecessary, however, it's critical to do that because it's part of what we do. So I just want you to think about the gap between thinking and knowing, and when we close that gap, that really unifies us to a high-level professional, and at the end of the day it's the right thing to do. Jim Cokonis: Agreed. Just tell Scott not to load the parts cannon. He's over here laughing in the chat. Anyway. Nick Pope: The parts. Jim Cokonis: I think Kent Bullard: it's- Yes ... I think it's really important what you're saying here, Nick, when you're saying the space between. I think when we're in that point of, it's chaos at the shop. You've got so much on your plate. We can become reactionary in that we don't think about that gap. We think about either we hit it or we missed it, and that's it. And when we look back, that's what we're looking back towards. It's all past. We missed the mark, and then we feel bad. And by the way, you can't change anything that happened back there. But when you look at the gap, that is a forward-facing thing. Here is where I'm at, here's where I wanna be, and there's an, a space in between I can focus on. That is momentum building. That is progress. If you can focus on the gap, you can ask the right questions, you can leverage the resources available to you, that's how you close the gap and that's how you make progress. Doesn't have to be perfect. You can make mistakes, but then what's the gap, right? Nick Pope: Are learned. Lots of lessons are learned in the gap and the goal is to not make them over and over again. To learn it, the goal is to learn from them and share those with those around us so they can do better than us. Kent Bullard: Love that. Nick Pope: Yes, absolutely. So that's all I have for my slide, everybody. Jim, I'm gonna throw this back to you. Jim Cokonis: I've actually... My presentation portion of that's done. I think Kent had some- Kent Bullard: I was gonna ask- Closing business. Jim Cokonis: Go ahead ... Kent Bullard: so Jim, if there's one thing that you would want the attendees or the students to take away from the electrical training that you covered today, what would that be? Jim Cokonis: The biggest thing that I was trying to point out in that is that anything advanced that we wanna do is all in the basics, and it's that way in everything. If you don't have a solid foundation under a house it's not gonna be strong and it's not gonna stand. You can't build a skyscraper on a sound foundation. And a lot of people get frustrated 'cause they wanna learn the, the high-end moon phase type stuff, and they wanna focus on that. My message is that if you really understand the fundamentals, you can be the person that creates the moon phase tech when you, tech- technique when you need it. But if you're just copying somebody else, I wanna be careful how I say that. If you're just copying somebody else, you haven't internalized the skill yourself. That's it. Kent Bullard: I think that's really insightful, and I wanna go back 'cause I learned quite a lot. I'm not a car guy, so thank you for this. But I really liked, when you were talking about the sequential and connecting the dots. I think sometimes with those problems you're dealing with it's more of that sporadic I'm just trying to solve the problem," and you end up spinning your wheels. You're going in this direction or that direction. I think it's really important to have that base foundation to start with and an end goal, and just to connect the circuit. And if you can follow the path, then you can look at the opportunities or the challenges that you really need to deal with rather than the busy work that might be distracting you, the red herring that might be, pulling you in the wrong direction. And you can save a lot of time, effort, and stress by being a little more strategic in where your attention and focus is when you're dealing with these problems. Anyway that's one of my takeaways, is look at a lot of these challenges as a sequential, right? Go back through the map from the, where you need to, where you're starting from and where you need to be, and then work the map. That was my takeaway. I really appreciated that one. With that said, we're coming up on just a few minutes here, everybody. I wanna talk a little bit about this series and what we're planning with this, and I wanna give a big thank you to Today's Class for helping us put this together. We have another training coming up. Part two is gonna be on the 8th, and it's not just oil. We're gonna talk about understanding modern lubricants and service recommendations, and at the same time talk about, some of the skills necessary on the... to be a good technician, to have a good career in that phase and things that'll help you out be better and put you in a better opportunity. And part three is gonna be the wealthy technician. This is about building values, skills, and a stronger future for yourself. Just to highlight some things with Today's Class, we've had quite a lot of shops who are starting to use it, and a lot of technicians who really appreciate it. And it goes back to some of the things that we mentioned earlier. They have a lot of dynamic content in that it's going to evaluate where you're at, what are the needs, what are the gaps that you have in your skill set, and then help provide the training necessary in very short intervals, so you can get that consistent practice over time. There's a lot of fun gamification. I'm still going through and learning some of the, systems myself. It's really fun to beat my dad in scores and and share that. And no, it's been a, it's been a really good treat to see some of the paths that they have there, 'cause it's not just for technicians. It can be ser- for service advisors and managers, and you can even curate some of the training in your shop and in, with your team. Maybe if you're looking for ASE testing prep and wanna get your, really sharpen your ax on those, they've got a pathway for that as well. If you guys wanna know more information about that I'm gonna go ahead and share... Let's see. We'll go to this next slide here, but I'll share a link there that you guys can get more information on Today's Class. At this time, we're gonna open it up to just questions and takeaways. We're closing things out. We're gonna get to this point here, but any of you here wanna hang out with us for a few more minutes and ask some more pointed questions, some more detailed questions, we've got Jim and Nick here to answer those questions. And just a big thank you to ga- to everybody who participated in this, who joined us for this. Keep an eye out for the other ones. We're really excited for those to come out and yeah. And again, tell us what you guys want training on. You can send that to the link I provided it earlier. But let's see. I'll re-share that link as well. That's gonna be content@todaysclass.com. Any questions? Let's see what we got here. A few comments. Aziz said "Relating DTCS and wiring diagram and the basics of how to work helps a lot. Thanks for revalidating my techniques." I actually, I really appreciate that. Sometimes we just need that recognition and validation that we're doing the right things. Christopher Johnson said, "Know your fundamentals." Awesome. We here for a little bit longer if anybody has any questions Jim Cokonis: Electricity is actually one of my favorite things because it's physics and it's logical And unlike other aspects of life- It's not emotional. It's not emotional. It's not illogical. It can be Kent Bullard: emotional. Jim Cokonis: I'm the only moody one allowed in here. Anyway Thanks, Chad Always learning, lifelong learning. Listen, content@todaysclass.com is an email address. With some planning and knowing we can put together, one of these things and schedule it out. But here's one of the big things for me with training is how do we know we're covering the right stuff, and how do we know if it actually takes? And that's one of the reasons why I'm so excited about this platform with the adaptive learning content, because the forgetting curve is real. You can hear something and you can think you've got it down, and within a few days you're gonna lose 90% of what you heard. If you don't go and reinforce it and lock it down then it disappears. And so that's one of the reasons why I got excited about this concept of blended learning. So we can do an event like this, we can do an in-person jam session, and if it's intentional, we can actually create content that comes back and asks questions to be sure that somebody picked up the key points, that they lock those fundamentals down. And to me, that's the ultimate way to learn is because you have to... and then you can have a situation where somebody has taken some content and they've got a proficiency of understanding the basic terms we're gonna use, so now we don't have to explain the terms and we can get right into the meat of the topic. So if you have any interest in what that can look like in the future, again, send us an email and let's talk about what that looks like. Kent Bullard: I'm more excited to check out some of the simulations. I've had talks about electrical for a w- over the years, and I've never really understood it. This is one of the first times I've actually seen how those charts actually work and the way that the current's gonna flow and all of that. So that was really insightful to see it physically. It's digital, but to physically see you manipulate and show how it is affecting the current was really cool. Jim Cokonis: Awesome. Kent Bullard: I'm excited for the next one, which we're gonna be talking about, fluid dynamics and not just oil, right? Lubricants and service recommendations. You guys have some really good content on that as well. All right with that said, if we don't have any other questions, thank you all so much for being here. Jim Cokonis: And thanks for the comments in the chat too. Good stuff. Kent Bullard: Yeah. Thank you guys for your contribution and joining the conversation. We hope to see you on the next one with even more questions. Nick Pope: Thanks everyone. Bye for now. Kent Bullard: Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Jim. Jim Cokonis: Thank you.

211 - It's Not Just Oil: Understanding Modern Lubricants & Service Recommendations

211 - It's Not Just Oil: Understanding Modern Lubricants & Service Recommendations July 8, 2026 - 01:00:14 Show Summary: Modern engine oil is far more than a viscosity rating. Jim Cokonis and Nick Pope explain why manufacturer specifications additives and certifications matter just as much as the oil weight. They break down how oil life monitoring systems actually work why using the wrong lubricant can void warranties and how service information protects both the shop and the customer. The discussion also explores brake fluid engine design and the importance of staying curious as vehicle technology continues to evolve.   Host(s): Kent Bullard, CCO, The Institute for Automotive Business Excellence [http://wearetheinstitute.com] Nick Pope, Industry Coach, The Institute for Automotive Business Excellence [http://wearetheinstitute.com]   Jim Cokonis, Technical Director, Today's Class [http://todaysclass.com] Show Highlights: [00:00:00] – Modern lubricants require facts over myths and better technical decision making. [00:05:00] – Oil weight alone never determines the best protection for an engine. [00:11:00] – Wrong oil specifications can void warranties and cost thousands. [00:21:00] – Reading oil certifications helps match products to manufacturer requirements. [00:29:00] – Lubricant standards vary because every engine has different engineering priorities. [00:35:00] – Service information beats assumptions when selecting the correct lubricant. [00:42:00] – Even oil filter installation procedures can vary by manufacturer. [00:49:00] – Modern engines rely on advanced lubrication systems and specialized oil formulations. [00:53:00] – Oil life monitors calculate service intervals using real operating conditions. [00:57:00] – Confidence grows through experience but curiosity keeps technicians improving.   In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode.   👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/fhJAnd9ZKI8 [https://youtu.be/fhJAnd9ZKI8]   Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this!   Links & Resources:  * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com].   Episode Transcript:   Kent Bullard: Hello everybody, and I am excited to welcome you back to our technical webinar series for you technical, uh, gearheads out there. Very excited to cover some great content today. Today we're gonna be talking about lubricants, the services there, uh, a lot of great stuff. What I'd love to do is just invite some fantastic trainers, Nick and Jim, on stage with us. They've got some fantastic content for you, uh, talking about oil lubricants plus the service recommendations. It's not just about oil. Nick, Jim, welcome to the stage. Nick Pope: Glad to be here. Thank you, Ken. Glad to be here. Kent Bullard: Hello everybody. Uh, just so that we can get some ground rules laid down, uh, our goal with this series really is to, to provide some of the technical skills plus the critical thinking skills that'll help you be better at your job. There's a few things that we wanna keep in mind as we go forward into this. The first is that we're gonna be asking some questions, and we would love your participation. Those of you out there, let me know that your chat is working, 'cause this is how we'll do the polls later on, by giving me a one, two, or a three in the comments section. As we put these polls on screen, they're gonna have some answers to different questions, and the best way for us to see those is to just answer one, two, or three in the chat. Are you guys excited for some of the content you're covering today? Nick Pope: Absolutely. Jim Cokonis: Absolutely. Kent Bullard: Wonderful. Anybody out there in the, in the comments? Michael, I saw you, uh, jump in there. Let us know you guys are here. Hi, everyone. Um, as we get into it, I wanna make sure that we are, uh... We got a comment that said, "Sound stop," by the way. Uh, just to make sure that we keep things positive and constructive, there's a lot of things we're gonna cover today. Make sure that you guys are, uh, taking notes, taking key takeaways here, but most importantly, we wanna have a lot of fun with this. Tyler, I see you in the chat there. Michael. Awesome. With that said, I'm gonna give the time over to the, to the real experts here, to Nick and Jim Jim Cokonis: I just put a, uh, comment out there that says please ask questions, and we'll get to them as time allows. Because Nick, I think you'd agree, we would much rather speak with everyone than at them for- Nick Pope: I, I do agree. I, I think that we should make this conversational, have some good takeaways at the end of it, but by all means, everybody, please chime in with any questions, experiences, stories. We would love to hear about them. Kent Bullard: As we go into this, I'll be your guys' voice, uh, for the audience. I'm gonna be monitoring the comments for the most part as these guys go into this content. Uh, just we're here to help Jim Cokonis: So that being said, disclaimers. Um, I don't get into... In this short of a format, we're not gonna get into the difference between cenostoke and cenopoise and, and all those, um, terms of the tribologist. There you go. There's a piece of homework if you don't know what a, what a tribologist is- Tribologist ... you can go look that one up. Had the opportunity to speak to a couple of them. They're fascinating people, uh, and they're full of good information. But what we wanna do is, one of the things that I have enjoyed in my career, Nick, I don't know about you, is, is busting myths. Um, sometimes we hear things and information gets passed along by rote, and then we go look up information and look up data, and we go, "Well, that doesn't work the way I thought it did." And so we're not trying to call anybody out, tell you what oil to use, or anything else. Um, this is us calling ourselves, and hopefully everyone else, up to, you know, increase the level of professionalism and fact-driven decision-making as we take care of the motoring public. So you got anything to add to that, Nick? I mean... Nick Pope: I do. You know, we're just talking about oil right now, however, this is universally applicable to all fluids, right? Jim, I remember way back when Ford came out with Mercon V and, you know, they superseded it where you could use it to, uh, any product that used Mercon. And, you know, this is a really good informational s- you know, uh, part of our series where we're gonna really talk about concepts that are going to apply to other fluids, and there will be a lot of takeaways. You know, for me personally, I'll show some vulnerability. I've been in positions where I thought something and I was completely wrong. And, um, you know, for me, the takeaway was I, I learned that I was wrong, and I was aware more moving forward where I needed to keep up with things to keep on that cutting edge. Jim Cokonis: I have a, I have a good friend of mine says, "You know, I was about 10 years into the business and I was getting to the point where I was getting pretty confident and I was learning a lot of things, and I thought it all... I had everything figured out." And he said, "The longer I go, the more I realize I don't know." So that's that perpetual student. Um, l- so now that we've gone through that disclaimer, let's get back over into some of the things that we're going to talk about. Um- We're gonna talk about oil life because it's a big topic out in the field, and, you know, what manufacturers recommend, and I hear the chatter all the time. Um, but can oil last 10,000 miles? Do the maintenance systems work? How do they work? Are there any differences between them? You know, is the maintenance minder on a Mercedes the same as it is on a Toyota? Here, preview. No. Um, oil is oil. Just put that stuff in it. If it says 530 on the cap, put some 530 bottles in it and you're good to go. Is that true? Um, what are the facts? How, how important is the weight of the oil compared to the specifications that the oil meets? And then what does the car know? A lot of modern cars know a lot of things, and some of these sy-systems are quite sophisticated. But there's also things in service information that give us the details behind those recommendations, and we're gonna share some of those, uh, with you as well. So I'm just curious, I don't know if you have a poll for this one, Kent, but have you all ever had a conversation like this in your shop? Yes? No? Um, oil doesn't last that long. The manufacturers aren't building cars to last. They wanna sell you a new car, so they don't care if it, you know, if the oil doesn't last that long and the engine life isn't there. Um, cars will run low on oil before the service interval is reached. Can that be true? Yeah. Could it be because of the oil we put in it? There's a question, and I'm letting that sit out there for a minute. Um, I talked to a tribologist one time because one of the oils that I have been using for years personally, I'm not gonna even tell you what it is, but I'm like, it's a product and the base stock of it is what is used to lubricate jet turbines And then it has additive in it, and one of the additives that it has is ZDDP. Well, if you know anything about what's going on with oil additives and the formulations, you know that ZDDP is something that we have to add to motor oils these days if we're running an old flat tappet cam, like on an old small block or an old Ford. And one of the reasons we've taken the zinc products out of oil is because it can poison catalysts and poison O2 sensors, make them inoperative. So of course we're gonna get check engine lights. It can also, uh, you know, shorten the life of a cat. And so I asked this tribologist, I said, "How can you recommend this oil for a emission-controlled vehicle when it has an admittedly high level of ZDDP?" And here was the answer I got. Nick, tell me what you think about this if you, if you were to listen to this guy. He said, "Look at the flash point-" Yeah ... which is where the oil starts to smoke. If any of you guys are into cooking, you know that certain oils can take higher heat before they start to smoke and burn. Same thing with motor oils. Okay. What the motor oil is made out of and how well it's refined have an impact on what's called flash point. And he says, "If the oil doesn't flash off, the zinc doesn't escape." And that was the answer he gave me. What do you think about that? Nick Pope: I think that makes a lot of sense, and I would love to meet this guy. I'm sure you had some really other key takeaways from him. Do you have any more that stand out aside from that? Jim Cokonis: I had another conversation with another tribologist who built a different product. I won't get into all that. But he was explaining that certain people use products designed for hydrodynamic lubrication, which means, like, y- you know, in a, on a crankshaft, we want hydrodynamic lubrication. We wanna float the parts on a thin film of oil to maintain separation. If the pressures and the intensity ever go beyond that, then we have a situation where we need boundary layer lubrication, and the additives and the formulation of the lubricant are different depending on what we're trying to do. He says, "So if you use a product designed for hydrodynamic lubrication, like motor oil, in an area where the product doesn't have an oil pump and the ability to flow the oil in to maintain that layer, then you don't have the boundary layer lubrication to prevent wear." And since I was using that on some pretty specialized pieces of equipment, that was an education, too. And helped me understand why some people were erroneously using and recommending products because they weren't right for the application. There's another one. Um- Nick Pope: That, that's a good one. And have you ever ran across anything where somebody unconsciously used the wrong type of oil with, uh, having any type of long-term mechanical- That's a- ramifications? Jim Cokonis: That, that's a good one. Um, years ago I was doing a series of maintenance classes for a large organization, and the management team at this particular region, they shared with me that they had a relatively new European vehicle that they were doing all the service work on. Had a r- you know, consistent customer, they trusted them. They did all the work, and they were doing the oil changes on this vehicle, and with relatively low mileage, it developed an engine noise. They took it to the dealership And the dealership said, "We need to see all your service records." Kent Bullard: Mm. Jim Cokonis: And when they looked at the service records, and they looked at the oil that was on all the oil change intervals, the oil was changed within the intervals. It did not meet the specifications for that engine, and the manufacturer voided the warranty on the entire vehicle. Kent Bullard: Wow. Jim Cokonis: Yeah, yeah. Say that backwards. Wow. Wow. Okay. Um, so when you have a situation like that, and they want to take care of their client, of course, they're like, "What do we need to do?" And basically, the manufacturer and the dealer came back and said, "We have to install a new factory engine, and it has to be done at the dealership." And they paid for it, and it was a $15,000 lesson 15 years ago. Kent Bullard: So it's, it's essentially like you just installed the wrong part. Jim Cokonis: Yes. You're allowed to use things that meet the specification that aren't purchased from the dealer, but they have to meet the specification. And the oil that they were using did not. Um, other conversations came up about, you know, transmission fluid, and a lot of places like to use universal transmission fluid. And when you really dig into it and you look at it, and the- you'll see for this transmission, it's okay for top off, but you can't service the whole thing because something will happen with... You know, the additive package isn't right for that transmission. Or you'll also see things like, um, approved for use in this particular application once it's out of warranty. Think about that. Nick Pope: Mm-hmm. Jim Cokonis: So what are they saying? Well, they haven't had the- They're saying they haven't had the, they haven't had the independent testing done to prove, they're confident that it'll work, but they haven't had the independent testing done. Now, if I'm running a shop and I wanna take care of a client's car and I don't wanna get into a contest about who's right and who's wrong, I'm gonna go, "Okay, let me go find something that actually has the approval for that particular product." Make sense? Nick Pope: Yeah, it makes sense. You know, they're, again, kinda circling back to a comment that we alluded to on our first webinar, there's the difference between thinking and knowing, right? I think this is the right oil, but do I know it? And now, you know, uh, as things continue to evolve in our industry, right, that puts us in a position where we need to kind of run along that and, you know, continue to grow ourselves as technicians to keep on that cutting edge. I think about, uh... Go ahead, Kent. Kent Bullard: Oh, I was just gonna ask a, a question. Do you think that depending on the types of vehicles they're working on, they might make the assumption that taking this degree of, of due diligence or looking at these specialty, you know, lubricants and oils, that it is only meant for, like, performance vehicles? Mm-mm. No? Jim Cokonis: No. Um, there, there are non-performance vehicles and we, we've got a slide coming up here very shortly, um, that will get into some of that. And so when we talk about lubricants and fluids for vehicles, everything's got to align. Okay? The type of oil that's being used, its viscosity and performance is going to be different for the way the manufacturers designed that particular motor. And if we look at new engines, they don't have the passage sides and the, the same tolerances and clearances as some of the older products. And so if we try and run some of the older lubricant technologies in those engines, they are not gonna be able to get there. A lot of the wear happens on startup, and if the oil that you're running doesn't have the viscosity to get this thing lubricated fast enough, um, you're, you're gonna cause excessive wear on startup. And so, you know, everybody likes to say these oils are too thin. Well, one of the things we need to do in our minds is realize that the weight of the oil has a whole lot less to do with how well it lubricates than the actual makeup of the components and the type of machine work and everything else. So think about this. You can have a rotary pump, you can have a rotary pump with a clearance of two microns, which is thinner than a human hair, lubricated by diesel fuel. Diesel fuel is not thick. But it lubricates that component spinning at, you know, whatever relative to engine speed Now, if the diesel fuel doesn't have the right lubricity in it or we have a filtration system that isn't keeping it clean enough, then we'll have a situation where we'll end up getting wear and damage. So, you know, the viscosity is not necessarily what drives the lubrication. If you have water on the road, water is not thick. But if there's enough water standing, you can hit that with a 8,000-pound vehicle and hydroplane. You think there's hydrodynamic lubrication? You bet there is. So when we look at this, it's gotta be the material. It's gotta be design and tolerance. It's gotta be the filtration. The lubrication system may have some special things that are done, um, to it to help it handle the changes in loads. Um, what's the structure of the oil? How well refined is it? Um, one of the things I have said for a long, long time is that many of the oils that we sell in the United States as fully synthetic oils can't be sold other places in the country as fully synthetic because-- Or other places in the world. Other places in the world, fully synthetic means that it's gotta be Group IV or Group V base stock, which means it's fully formulated from chemical reactions. It's not made from dead dinosaurs. Um, so one of the interesting things that I learned in doing my research is that Group IV PAO oils are extremely durable. But the trick is, some of the additives that we use won't mix with PAO oil. So many fully synthetic oils are a blend of Group IV and Group V because the ester oils, the Group V fully synthetic oils, they will pick up the things that are used as additives to mix it in and make sure it's distributed throughout the motor. And so that brings us to that last piece of additives, and the additives are the key to success. And here's another interesting thing that I have heard from tribologists, and I'm, and I mean from multiple different companies Not all additives are, um, compatible. And you can add, quote, "an additive package" to a, an oil that's appropriate for the vehicle, and it can nullify the benefits of what that formulation met. Mm. And so I've always been personally hesitant to use, um, motor oil additives, personally. Now, I'm not telling anybody what to do, and you've gotta have your own conversations with your own suppliers, um, and make sure that what you're using is compatible with... The whole system's gotta work together. Does that make sense? Did I say that right, Nick? Nick Pope: It, it does make sense. And, you know, the, the tricky part to this is whether we use the right oil or not, there's not going to be an instant sign of failure in most cases, right? And when we think about the long-term picture, you know, um, d- I like to look at it this way. You know, we think about how we may have a certain water source that we drink on a regular basis, and over the series of time, we may start to not feel as good as we did once, you know, ever since we started drinking from this water source. And, you know, when we think about it with oil, it's, it's, it's the same thing, right? Over th- a series of time, the engine may be impacted in a negative way if we put the wrong engine oil in it. And- Circling back to why we do this, we do this to serve our customers, right? We hold ourselves to a high quality to, to be the professionals in our industry, right? That's, that's an honor and a privilege every single day. So we have to look at the long-term picture as well, and I think that's why this is really important that we're having these conversations. And, and Jim, you know, that, that engine story that you shared really, uh, stood out to me, right? Um, you know, the fact that it voided a warranty. Gosh, could you imagine if you had a vehicle that you were taken to a, a, a repair shop or, you know, a quick lube and they were putting the wrong oil in over and over again, and you had an engine issue, thought it was under warranty, and then bam, got hit on the head with a $15,000 bill? Oof. I, I would lose it, man. Jim Cokonis: Yeah. Oof, oof indeed. Kent Bullard: And at this, at the same time, who should be on the hook for that? Nick Pope: Right. Jim Cokonis: Yep. Well, I've always looked at it like this. We're the professional. Exactly. Absolutely. It's our job to know. It's our job to know. Um, so I actually went and just took some pictures of bottles because I find them fascinating, and so... Nick Pope: What kind of bottles, Jim? Jim Cokonis: Ha. Oil bottles. Oil bottles. Got Nick Pope: it. Jim Cokonis: Um, so this is one. This is Mobil 1 Extended Performance, and I love it says, "Protects for 20,000 miles guaranteed," with a little asterisk. Well, guaranteed how and what? And I'm not gonna get into all that, but this particular bottle carries the dexos1 Gen 3 approval. Okay? And then also on the, on the right side over here in this section, hopefully that shows up a little bit better, um- It talks about meets or exceeds the requirements of ILSAC GF-6A, API SP, SN-plus, SN and SM. Okay? So then it says it, it, it meets or exceeds the requirements of Chrysler, couple different Chrysler specs, and a Ford spec. And then recommended by ExxonMobil for use in applications requiring this other Ford spec, two of them there. And then it says, "Has the following builder approvals," the, the Dexos 1 Gen 3, and the Honda Acura HTO06. And so if I'm looking for things, I'm definitely gonna use this in anything that has these, these, these upper spe- specs with the Chrysler, um, 6395 and 13340 and the Ford, uh, M2C961. Um, but the 946, I'm relying on ExxonMobil for that. Now, I'm not telling you you shouldn't use it, because they may just not have gotten the individual approval on that yet. But if I'm trying to be sure on something that's under warranty, um, I may look for something that actually holds that approval. And then that's a bottle of 5-30, right? And so it has an API service of SP. Well, let's take a look at another bottle of 5-30. This is from Pennzoil, and it says it's full synthetic, 20,000-mile protection guarantee. But if we look at this one, it holds GF-7A, API SQ. It holds some, some Chrysler and Ford, um, formulated to meet or exceed But it doesn't carry the GM dexos spec. Okay? Now, maybe they've chosen not to pay for the m- the, the logo and the certification from General Motors on this one. What does that really mean to us? And so when we look at that, you know, these two side by side, when we look at them, we can determine, well, what, what will this work well in? What's the, uh, you know, what's, what's the best application for what I'm working on? So then I'm gonna show you guys a website that I use to visually do some of this. Now, there's kind of a disclaimer on this website, and it says it's designed to really compare performance within a specific standard and not necessarily to compare across standard systems. But I think there is a lot of things that we can learn from looking at some of these performance specifications. And Mike Kortaba, k- how do I... I need to figure out how to say your name, my friend. Um, Michael Kotarba? Did I do it right that time? Give me a thumbs up. Michael Kent Bullard: K. Jim Cokonis: Mike K. There we go. He says, you know, take a look, and we had this one oil that said it was SN or SN Plus. And if we look at API's standards, this is a graphic that looks at, um, eight specific sections of Oil performance. These are some standards, and I actually have all this information in the presentation. Excuse me. And so I'm just gonna pick, um, let's pick SN Plus. And if we look at how this oil is formulated, it's designed, and this is way better than some of the old oils. L- l- look at this performance standard for API SJ. It's like it puts a little splat in the middle, and the farther out you go from a zero to a 10, it's how, how well it performs those tasks under testing. That's what this is supposed to represent, okay? But if we look at this one and we say, "Okay, um, let's compare that to GM Dexos 1 Gen 3." Hmm Which one of those am I more focused on making sure the oil meets? I think when I look at this for fuel economy and oxidative thickening and the ability to control deposits and sludge, I would think that, that, that particular, um, certification would be important for the engine that I'm working with. Okay? Then we can look at some of the others too. Um, I think Mike said look at some of the ACEA ratings, right? And we can look at some of the newer ones from 2023. Hmm Okay? Do we see where some of these European standards may focus more on the durability and the oil life from a standpoint of conserving resources? And then we can look at Some of the Ford specifications. Now, I don't have all the Ford specifications here, but Ford runs an extended oil life monitor on several things, and let's look at some of those. Oh, look at that. That particular oil, I can tell you by looking at it, that's probably one of the diesel specification oils. And the reason I say that is because this is a oil that doesn't really go after, um, low-speed pre-ignition, and we'll talk about what that is. But it does weigh in pretty heavily on ac- uh, aftertreatment capability, which is typically something that's gonna happen on diesels. And then we can look at this particular oil, and obviously this would probably be one of the ones that Ford uses, and I don't have all these memorized off the top of my head, but that's a different performance standard, and Ford is probably using that on some of their boosted applications because they're targeting low-speed pre-ignition, which can cause almost instantaneous damage to an engine. What do you guys think of this? Is this kind of fascinating? If you've never looked at these... Let's take a look at some of the Mercedes ones. Mercedes is one that's known for running some pretty extended oil change intervals, and look at how far out on the charts they're targeting for performance with wear and so forth, but they're not really pushing their low-speed pre-ignition. Is Mercedes running a lot of boosted applications, or are they running a lot of naturally aspirated stuff? And that's the type of things that we need to look for, okay? Nick, does that bring up any questions for you? Nick Pope: Yeah, absolutely. I have one question. And, you know, looking at the Lubrizol website, what happens if we have a manufacturer who, you know, just we'll say has a specific oil for a 2009 model year and, you know, a newer model, you know, 10 years later has c- a wider band of coverage, right? Um, where it'll cover that span but then have some additional areas that it covers as well. Are we able to use that oil on the newer model, uh, vehicle? Jim Cokonis: Can you, can you run that by me one more time? Absolutely. I was read- I was read- I was reading a comment. I'm sorry, Kent. Uh, I see these comments- No, I was, I was just- ... popping up and I'm like, this is, this is some f- Yeah ... and I know a couple of these guys, so th- these are definitely kind of conversations that, that we get into. Um. Nick Pope: So, so- Jim Cokonis: Run that question by me one more time, Nick ... Nick Pope: so if we have a, an older model vehicle, right? And, um, we'll just pick on Mercedes. Now, looking ahead, you know, on this Lubrizol website, you were showing the coverage, you know, in the specific areas that, you know, the oil has its, you know, key purpose in. If we're gonna use, consider using, um, a newer oil that maybe has a wider span of coverage, can we use that on an older vehicle if it hits the mark on the initial requirements, but then in addition to- So Jim Cokonis: that's a, that's a great question ... covers wider areas? That's a great question. I got a specific one that I'm somewhat aware of, even though I'm not a, a European specialist. Um, so BMW. BMW, a long time ago, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get rid of... Let's see, I'm gonna get rid of this API one, and I think I had Then I have a Ford or I think I had GM up here I'm just gonna clean the chart up. Okay? And a long time ago, ago, BMW Long Life 01, right? Um, and these were the years that they were put out. So if you go back to 1998, this was the performance standard. If you come to '01, this is the performance standard. If you come to Lo- Long Life '04, this is the performance standard. Can you see where as they got newer, they're covering what they used to require and then more in performance? Nick Pope: Yes. Jim Cokonis: And so a lot of folks will say, when you look at the BMW, they will tell you that their newest standard is backwards compatible to all the others So if you have a vehicle that calls for, you know, the 22FE++ from 2022, it covers the performance standards of all the previous ones. The only real interesting factor though is that when you look at these older, um, oils, and I would need to do some, some double-checking here, I would, you can see that the older oils were more in the high temperature, high shear category because they're above 3-5. Whereas the newest standard is only just above 2 because look, it goes out and goes after fuel economy more, so it's less, um, less of a high shear oil because they went more after flowability to reduce the pumping losses, uh, from, from driving a pump to run that heavier oil. Make sense? So yeah, there's, there's definitely some research to do in this, and the beauty about it is a lot of us have repeat clients. So with repeat clients, we, you know, we have all these great, um, we have all this great service information systems and we can put in the specs on what car takes what these days, and it's pretty easy to do. So once we look it up once, the next time that car comes in, we can have the standard written right into our service information for what that car has. Just be sure to check, um, service information every once in a while because they change things. So let's talk about changing things. Kent Bullard: Um- Well, before we get into that, I- Yeah have two things. One, uh, Nick, I think you had a poll for everybody out there, and then I wanna get to Jacob's comment. Nick Pope: Yeah. So, uh, let's try to get some engagement here, everybody. I, uh, we're curious, how often do you check the manufacturer's exact oil spec prior to adding oil to the vehicle? Kent Bullard: Remember, you can answer with a one, a two, or a three in the comment section. Number one is every time, number two is occasionally, and number three is rarely As you guys are answering that, I think it's really poignant to what Jacob was asking, right? So we can even, as, as you guys are answering this, this, uh, poll, I'd love to highlight this. Jacob said, "In fact, it's an overwhelming, uh, proposition. You can't fathom the amount of time it would take to cross-reference and catalog oil needs for every car that comes through our small independent repair facility." Nick, what do you think about that? Nick Pope: I think that's fair. I, you know, it is a lot, right? Um, and like anything though, once we go through the motions and set the stage, then it's just gonna be fine-tuning, right? We're gonna maintain it as things change. We're gonna make adjustments. So again, you know, when we look at the big picture in the grand scheme of things, we are, you know, here to serve our customers as professionals, and we have to put in the work to, to meet that mark Kent Bullard: We have one answer here already saying every single time. Uh, Gary, I'd love to know how much time does it actually take you to do this and, and do you find that it is a, uh, time sink for you? I mean, I think as you're running a, an independent small shop, e- every second counts when you're trying to be productive, right? Jim Cokonis: Mm-hmm. And, and for Jacob and everybody else, um, even if you're on Facebook, um, the comments do come through into StreamYard because it's a pretty, pretty sophisticated piece of software. It bring, it brings it through. Um- Kent Bullard: Yeah, Jim Cokonis: even Mike said that we're always looking every time Look it up and turn to the information. Yep. Kent Bullard: Yep. And it goes back to that comment you were saying earlier, Jim, about we are the professional. So what does it really mean to be the professional? If I were going to the doctor and the doctor wasn't checking the type of medication that they were trying to put in me, and it's like, "Oh, we're just gonna use the standard one," but didn't know that I might be diabetic or something, I mean, that would be a cause for concern, right? No. I'm trusting that doctor to make the best recommendation for me to keep this thing ticking, right? Jim Cokonis: Yep. So this is, this is an example, and you can see how easy it is to go for an extended period of time on this type of a topic. Um, but you know, we used to have issues with when GM first went to Dex-Cool and some of the problems that we had with Dex-Cool, and some of it was cooling system design, but it wasn't the chemistry of the coolant. It was the misunderstanding of the chemistry of the coolant that caused the issues, because hybrid organic acid technologies were used in European vehicles for many years prior to that, and they didn't have that issue. Um, part of it is, "I ain't got any orange, put some green in it." Well, you just ruined it. Um, so you know, that's just, that's just the way it goes. And this one is one that's near and dear to my heart, um, because we've seen changes, we've seen changes in technologies now, and this one isn't new, right? In the US, the, the, the federal motor vehicle safety standards talk about DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5, and DOT 5.1. But what we don't talk about are the international standards organizations or ISO class, like DOT 6 type of thing. And so this is an example, and I know some of you folks have seen these conversations, but I'm just gonna point out one spec. Max kinematic viscosity at cold temperature Um, but you'll notice that, and, and this has a lot to do with, with the, the, the specifications for oil too. So look at this. Kinematic viscosity of DOT 3 cold is 1,500. DOT 4 is 1,800, and DOT 4 has a higher boiling point. ISO class 6 or like the Ford low viscosity DOT 4 are 750 When they're cold. Okay? But look at them. They all hit the same minimum when they're hot. The magic of chemistry. So look at it this way. Look at it this way. How many of you have seen the arguments on the interwebs about calibration and what tool you're using and, you know, what target you're using and all that stuff about whether or not that ADAS system and that automatic emergency braking are gonna work? And then we don't look up the fluid specifications for the brake fluid, and when the vehicle's cold, the brake fluid is thicker than what the system is programmed to use. Do you think the brakes can apply and release as fast with DOT 3 or DOT 4 in it as it would with ISO Class 6? Probably ain't gonna happen. Okay? And so we worry about all these things, but then we're not putting in the right fluids to actually make the system work, and those are the types of things that have always been wake-up calls to me, like, "Whoa, I didn't realize there was this much of a difference." So- I- Let's, let... Go ahead. Kent Bullard: I wanna, I wanna just, uh, highlight Gary, uh, Gary's comment here, uh, just the end part of it, 'cause he was talking about how he manages it in his, in his small shop. But he says, uh, you know, they have the service advisor check, and then he can verify. But I love this: "The time to verify is less than a new engine or a lawsuit." Jim Cokonis: I- that is a beautiful comment. Kent Bullard: Yeah. Jim Cokonis: It's wonderful. That's a beautiful comment. Thank you, Gary. Yeah. We, we, we, I think we should, uh, I think we should put that one up as a- Kent Bullard: We should re- ... as a post over top of a video ... retitle, retitle this training that right there. Jim Cokonis: Well, G- Gary, you'll probably get a kick out of this. I have said for decades, "Why is there never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over?" I have never understood that. Let's, let's do it right the first time, and then we don't have to do it again, and again, and again. Um- Yeah ... so Kent, did we have a poll question on, uh- We did ... what would you do with an oil filter? Put that one up. Kent Bullard: All right, everybody. I wanna see some engagement here. We've tried this. We've tested it. Those of you out there, we've got one more question for you, one more poll for you, and we'd love to know: When installing a filter on a late-model Ford, which option may be true? You can answer one, no lubrication, tighten to spec; number two, lubricate the filter with anti-seize; or number three, lubricate the filter with grease. Let us know with a one, two, or three in the comment section. Jim Cokonis: And now I am going to share with you That this is a question that is on the Today's Class platform about lubrication services on vehicles. And there was a learner that called this out and said, "Absolutely not. You lubricate every filter every time." Um, and they actually selected to lubricate the filter with anti-seize. Um, I don't know if you realize it, but anti-seize has finely ground metal, and I'm not gonna put that anywhere near my oil system if I can avoid it. Um, but We were doing research, and this was something we learned within the last year. There are certain Ford, and I'm, I'm giving the answer away, and I'm sorry, Kent, but- Nick Pope: No, that's Jim Cokonis: fine. I Nick Pope: love it. Um- Jim, you're just really excited about this. Jim Cokonis: I can feel it. Th- th- this one, this one just tickles me to no end because, uh, I actually posted this on our platform and, and got a ton of engagement on it. A lot of people say, "And that's Ford being Ford, and they're wrong. You lubricate every filter every time." And then had a user that actually had some factory training, and here's what they said. "When we lubricate threads and surfaces, the mechanical advantage allows us, with the same force, to put a larger clamping load on." Well, some of these engines are running adapters that are made out of aluminum because we're all trying to save weight. And what they found was when people lubricate them and tighten them down farther than they should because they don't stop at the three-quarter, half to three-quarters of a turn, they actually tighten it down hard enough to pull on that housing, distort it, and create a leak which causes a, um, Jacob says, "I'm a fan of Gotcha Moment." But it causes it to warp the housing and create a leak, and it's not every Ford vehi- vehicle. And so the lesson for me out of this, Nick, is if I'm working on a vehicle that I don't know, I don't apply the knowledge that I had from the vehicles I did know to this new thing. I'm going to service information. Nick Pope: Yeah, and that's a really good point that you just made at the end, Jim, and, and it's one of the nuances to Just the daily changes in our industry. There's so many new changes, there's new, new variables, and as things continue to evolve and, uh, innovation excels at such a rapid rate. It- I love how you put it, though. You know, if it's something you haven't done, you're gonna do your research on it because odds are there could be a similarity with that amongst other things in a way you've been doing things for your whole career, or there could be something new that you're gonna be able to take away and usually in those moments, those things tend to stick with me the most. How about you? Right? Jim Cokonis: Yeah, the, uh... Well, we, we, we have a whole class we teach on it called, We Didn't Know And How To Find Out. Um, and it's all based around looking at service information because, you know, we, Nick Pope: we, Jim Cokonis: there's some stuff I didn't know. And I was taught this by a guy named Matt Ragsdale on, um, IATN decades ago, and this guy had one of these memories where somebody would post about how an EGR system works and he would d- he would respond, yeah, um, he would respond, "Not on that vehicle." And everybody thought he was a jerk because he was very precise and said just not on that vehicle. Well, what did he mean? And then they would push him on it and be like, "Well, that's doesn't help at all." And he'd like, "Look, get more training. That vehicle in month six they had a design and production change and it now behaves this way. It doesn't behave like they did for the last eight years." And he knew that stuff because he'd looked it up, it, it rocked his world, he locked it in, and he would now look at production dates before he decided which system he had. And I see this all the time with technicians. You know, "What do you think could be going on with this EVAP system?" And I'd be like, "What type of system does it have on it?" Yeah. And that's gonna determine how I'm going to test it and what it's gonna behave like. And so all of these things are a key. And then we look at things like 0-16 and 0-8 oil, and we go, "There's no way that's gonna work, and this engine is not gonna last." Well, I got news for you. The Japanese standards oils, the, the JASO system I think is what it is, they've been working directly with the manufacturer. The, the, the, the tribologists from ENEOS have been working directly with the tribologists in Japan for over a decade on formulating these oils. And these are not class four and five. They are a high grade of class three, highly refined- And then the additive package does everything to get the performance standards out of it. Okay? So this is not just something like, "Oh, we're gonna put thin stuff in it to get better gas mileage, and we don't care if it blows up in 10,000 miles." They actually have the data to show it. Okay? And so these engines- And you just don't- Ken, I know, I know we're kinda going long here. Um, Nick Pope: and I'm- Ken, you just opened up a door, man. Jim Cokonis: Oh, I opened up a huge door. Nick Pope: This doesn't even just pertain to oil. I mean, literally look at... You started to dive into it a little bit talking about EVAP systems. But again, you know, an EVAP system is an EVAP system. However, when we start to dive into different, you know, manufacturers, and then we dive into, you know, different makes and models under that umbrella, th- not, they're not always going to be the same. Kent Bullard: Yep. I think, I think this is an important thing to say, you know, 'cause I even, uh, all of us do this as we fall into certain habits and rhythms where, you know, you've got the work of the day, you've got things coming on, you know, on your plate, and it's a lot easier to just assume it's gonna be similar to the previous work that you've done, instead of taking a moment and pausing and saying, "Hey, I, I think I need to just look this up or, or just verify." Uh, again, back to what you had said in the previous, you know, series where we said, you know, the difference between. So I, I think that's also what distinguishes us as professionals, is that we do take the extra time to make sure, to verify, to ask the right questions Jim Cokonis: So this engine came out in the Toyota Camry in, like, '17, and this thing's completely different. And, you know, this engine can switch between Atkinson and Otto cycle, and it can do it during startup conditions. And instead of waiting for oil to warm up and all those things to make the VVT work on the intake cam efficiently, um, they use electric phasing. And so they can actually phase the intake cam where they want for premium operation before everything's fully up to temperature. Um, this, this thing has a two-stage oil pump system, so when they don't need it, they don't have a heavy load demand on it, um, they can run the oil pump at a lower output, and then when the, the loads get really high, they can step up the oil volume and deliver that lubrication and make that 0-16 or 0-8 work in that engine. Kent Bullard: Hmm. Jim Cokonis: Okay? So, um, we're probably gonna put this out as a, as a video, aren't we, Kent? Kent Bullard: Oh, yeah. Jim Cokonis: So this, this will be available. Um, and there's a bunch of terms. If you actually go onto the Lubrizol website, they will explain all their terms for the difference between soot thickening and oxidative thickening and what they do for fuel economy and aftertreatment, and, um, protection against low-speed pre-ignition, and that has to do a lot with additives and so forth that can trigger that sudden explosion, which is not combustion. It's an actual explosion. So all those terms are out there. But what I wanted to get to and make sure we covered, um, I've already covered that not all additives are compatible. Kent Bullard: Mm-hmm. Jim Cokonis: But all of these, uh, terms will be available, and maybe we'll even link a, a document to it that you guys can grab. Kent Bullard: But Jim Cokonis: some- Kent Bullard: I think that's a fantastic idea Jim Cokonis: some of the, um, some of the specifications for oils, like when we look at these, specifically these diesel oils, here's, uh, Motorcraft's oil. Look at the protection level that they put on the oil that, like, goes in the new six seven. Okay? And this has both, um- It also carries not only the Ford protection, but it shows Cummins, Volvo, um, and I forget, I think, let's see. Yeah, the Volvo and Mack, um, and the Cummins specification on it. When you look at these, they are definitely going after deposits and thickening and after-treatment capability and bore protection with these oils. Okay? It... But if you look at them, every one of them is a very heavy oil, and that is why when you look at them, they are not built for fuel economy. Because that's not what the diesel needs to live. Okay? So then we get into, well, how do these systems actually work? And this is really what I wanted to cover. Um, Ford starts with a baseline of 10,000 miles and a one-year timeline. So their system is smart. It's not just a dumb countdown timer. And talking to people who actually have these trucks and drive them in a certain area of the country, and even when they do similar things, they will notice vastly different flags for oil service based on how they're using the truck, what the temperature is, how much idling they do. So in cold weather, they'll cut down on the amount of time that it says the oil's okay. Look, look at this one I highlighted, flex fuel. If you run flex fuel in a Toyota that has a 10,000-mile service interval, they tell you to cut it down to five, because there's something about flex fuel and what it does to the structure of the oil, it degrades the oil a lot faster. So you're burning more fuel because it's at more alcohol and you're degrading your oil faster. Even though it may be a little bit less expensive, are you really saving any money? But, um, oil dilution, torque, right, load. One of the, one of the things about GM that I read a long time ago, they start with a 7,500 mile limit, and they look at engine temperature, ambient temperature, load. Some of them even looked at the n- amount of grams of airflow consumed to determine how fast the oil is degrading. Okay? So dusty conditions, right? And then some of them that had a oil level sensor in them, if it was low and you added a quart, if you went in and looked at the data, it would actually add some life back in because it saw another quart of oil added to it. Okay? When it's low, it gr- it degrades faster, and the variations can be huge. Under one... You know, the same vehicle driven in one climate by the same driver would go 6,500 miles. That same driver goes to a different climate, higher temperatures, driving, you know, pulling a load or whatever, and it drops and flags an oil change at 3,800. Mm. So it is, it is not a dumb system Mercedes, they're doing the same thing. Driving conditions, RPM, temperature, cold starts, idle time. They also add a sensor like BMW does. Okay? They can also detect added oil and adjust the algorithm. Something like Toyota is a simple mileage tracker, right? But look at this, if you're towing, you should reduce the service interval on the ones with the... And this is specifically to the ones with the 10,000-mile range on them. If you are driving with a rooftop carrier. So do you notice that kind of stuff when a client comes in? How often do you put your kayaks on top of your car? You shouldn't go that long on your oil service, right? Repeated short trips. So this is where we have to talk with a client and see what's going on. So this, this is what this really breaks it down to. What does the car not know? The car doesn't know what we poured in the crankcase, and so it's up to us to put the right stuff in the vehicle for its requirements. Kent Bullard: Mm. Jim Cokonis: Is that, is that... Any of you guys have any, anything to add to that in the comments? I mean, that's, that's what our job is. Figure out what's supposed to be there. And yes, I used AI to generate this nice young lady going around and looking at the bottles to pick the right thing, so. Nick Pope: Well, in, in, in summing it up, I think for me one of the biggest takeaways above and beyond the, the technical aspect of everything, Jim, and you did a phenomenal job by the way. I can tell that you, uh, you were really... I'm gonna put this as nice as I can. You were really riding that oil wave. You really were. You were, you were dialed in. Jim Cokonis: I was trying- And- ... to prevent that boundary breakdown. Nick Pope: Yeah. Yeah. Well, oil gives you a lot of purpose, and I admire that about you. Jim Cokonis: It's slick. Nick Pope: Our, but our, our, our experience as, you know, technicians and really just people in this industry, right, it, it should increase our confidence over time. However, it, it should never reduce our curiosity, right? So I, I want everyone to think about that for a moment, because, you know, the moment we lose our curiosity is, is a slippery slope, because that leads us down a path of a point where we may lose, um, our, our edge, right? We may become to a point where we might just be comfortable with where we are, and, and curiosity is what engages us to want to pick up on these little things. And, you know, if we take things off in, in smaller bites, right, those small chunks that we bite off over the series of a month, a year, whatever the case may be, that's gonna stack up into a lot of additional knowledge in the over, you know, all grand scheme of things. Jim Cokonis: Beautifully put. Kent Bullard: I'd love to, to wrap this up. I actually wanna answer... Well, I don't have to answer 'cause Jacob did, but Michael said, "Why did the manufacturers remove transmission and engine dipsticks, those types of things?" And Jacob said, "Beautifully put, because we should no longer depend on the consumers to maintain their vehicles due to the current complexity of the systems." Exactly right. You guys are the professionals. And I do wanna give a big thank you to today's class for working with us on this series. We've got one more in the tank. We're really happy, uh, for those who came and, and wanna come back. I wanna talk, take just a second to talk about today's class, 'cause we have thousands of technicians who are continuing to improve, uh, their skills. They are, uh, mastering today's technologies. There's a lot of incredible dynamic learning that you can do on that platform in small daily bites so that you can maintain your edge as you go forward, uh, and tackle oil, which I had no idea how complex and how valuable these systems are. So thank you Jim and, and Nick for sharing a lot of this with us. Um, if those of you are out there and wanna learn more about today's class or about oil, I think it's, uh, prudent of us to put together a PDF and share some of this recorded out for you guys, and if you want any more from us, uh, let us know at... In fact, just email me directly, kent@wearetheinstitute.com. Thank you guys all for being here, and we'll hope to see you on the next one. Jim Cokonis: Have a great afternoon everyone.

210 - Ask Cecil & Lucas The 5 C's of Effective Vehicle Diagnosis & Repair Documentation

210 - Ask Cecil & Lucas The 5 C's of Effective Vehicle Diagnosis & Repair Documentation July 1, 2026 - 00:59:46 Show Summary: Strong repair order documentation protects the customer the technician and the shop while improving efficiency and profitability. Cecil Bullard and Lucas Underwood explain the Five Cs of repair documentation and why every repair order should tell a complete story from the customer's concern to the final verification. They share real court cases shop experiences and practical examples that show how better documentation reduces liability improves communication and builds customer trust. They also discuss accountability shop culture and why consistent processes create better teams and better results.   Host(s): Lucas Underwood, Shop Owner of [https://lnautorepair.com/]L&N Performance Auto Repair [https://lnautorepair.com/]and Changing the Industry Podcast [https://changingtheindustrypodcast.com/] Cecil Bullard, Founder of The Institute [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/]   Show Highlights: [00:00:00] – Repair orders protect the customer the shop and the technician. [00:03:00] – Ask better questions to fully understand every customer concern. [00:07:12] – Confirm every complaint before diagnosis begins to prevent wasted time. [00:12:05] – Complete documentation can protect your shop during legal disputes. [00:18:28] – Use a two arrow diagnostic process to prove the true cause. [00:22:10] – Technicians should document the repair plan and final verification. [00:31:02] – Accountability and quality control keep repair order standards consistent. [00:36:08] – Leaders must follow shop processes before expecting employees to. [00:42:18] – Strong culture grows from systems training and customer focused communication. [00:53:05] – The Five Cs create better documentation stronger shops and happier customers.   In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode.   👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/cIbTInGm09Q [https://youtu.be/cIbTInGm09Q]   Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this!   Links & Resources:  * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com].   Episode Transcript: Lucas Underwood: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Lucas Underwood with the Changing the Industry podcast. I own an auto repair shop here in Blowing Rock, North Carolina, called L&M Performance Auto Repair. And today I am joined with one of the elite of the industry, Mr. Cecil Bullard. Cecil is the founder and chairman of the Institute in GEAR Group. And one of my very first classes on writing repair orders was with Cecil. And I'm just gonna tell you right here and right now, I know that we just think that fixing the car is about fixing the car, but when I took that class with Cecil, I really understood the importance of writing a repair order. Because not only is it a repair order that tells you what to fix and tells the consumer what's wrong with the car, but it's a repair order that it's a legally binding document, and it helps us explain and convey information to the client, but it also protects us. So Cecil, how you doing today, buddy? Cecil Bullard: I'm great, Lucas, as always. I'm doing fantastic. Lucas Underwood: Very good. Very good. So we're talking repair orders today. The s- the idea of it is the five Cs, but I think that we need to talk through the process of writing a repair order. So many of us show up at work every single day, and we jump in and we start working on cars, and we focus on fixing the car. But who writes the repair order, who does what part of the repair order, and what information is on the repair order is mission critical to the success of the shop. Because it impacts the close ratio, it impacts liability, right? So if you've ever had to go to court you know how important it is to have some information on there. But it impacts the effectiveness of the shop. So I have seen a difference in productivity and efficiency all the way around by getting the correct information on the repair order at the right time. And so Cecil, I'd like you to kick it off and tell us, guys ask me all the time, "What are the five Cs?" You wanna jump in and tell us what they are? Cecil Bullard: So the five Cs so let me get there in a sec. I wanna- Yeah ... step maybe two steps backward. The repair order starts with the conversation with the service advisor and the consumer- Lucas Underwood: Yeah ... Cecil Bullard: the client. And if I have good canned jobs good descriptions of what I'm doing. For instance, if I'm gonna do a mill light, a diagnostic, or a a electrical diagnostic, I wanna have a really good description of all of that builds value for the client and gets information for the technician. So let, let's think about this- it really starts there. Yeah. I've seen techs spend hours and hours go- because they didn't get the good information in the front. Lucas Underwood: For Cecil Bullard: sure. Going after, going after- Lucas Underwood: It's one of the primary complaints, Cecil. One of the primary complaints- Yeah ... is I just spent four hours looking for this- Cecil Bullard: Yeah ... Lucas Underwood: and you didn't give me the information. And then Cecil Bullard: y- yeah, and then they go up to the service advisor after th- all that frustration, and the service advisor says, "Oh, no. That's n- that's not really what I meant," right? Yeah. And so creating really good CAN jobs to start, which gives us a good heads-up on creating value for our client and give- giving the technician the information that the technician needs to move forward is kinda where this starts. And that really is in a way, that's the first C. What is the complaint from the consumer, right? Yeah. The client. So the first C is the complaint, and we need to document that complaint fully and completely. A- so I can't have a car runs rough. That's not enough for my technician, because my rough, and the consumer's rough, and the technician's rough could be three different things. So I really wanna ask the questions as a service advisor, how often, when, is the car cold? Is the car hot? Is it going uphill? Is it going downhill? Is this only on Tuesdays on a certain road at a certain time- Yeah ... of day? I need to be asking questions of the consumer so that I can get my technician the information that will help them create a problem. So I'll give you an example. Consumer comes in. I'm- I happen to be the service advisor, and I used to be the tech, and says, "I've got a rattle." I happen to jump in the car, and, I write it up, and I'm gonna end up giving it to a tech. But I jump in the car to pull it in the back, and there is just the most ungodly rattle in the trunk. And I- I open the trunk as a service advisor, and there's a bowling ball rolling around. Lucas Underwood: That'll Cecil Bullard: do the trick- And seriously ... Lucas Underwood: won't it? Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Yeah, seriously. And so I take the bowling ball. There's a towel in the trunk. I wrap it in this towel, and I put it in the backseat, where it's gonna be secure, and I test drive the car, and there's no rattle. There's no noise, right? And so I basically finish the work order, and the tech never sees the car. And I figure I got her whooped. And so I write the customer up. It was, I don't know, it was probably at the time it was an hour diag. I think I charged him half of the time and said, "Oh, yeah, we got her found, and, isn't this kind of funny? You have a bowling ball." There's actually dents on the inside of the trunk from this bowling ball rolling around. And the consumer pays the bill, drives out, the client, and not three minutes later, he's back in my- ... in the bay in my face. And, you Lucas Underwood: know- This sounds so Cecil Bullard: familiar. And he goes you didn't get the r- you didn't get the rattle." Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, really?" Could you- Lucas Underwood: How could that not be the rattle? Cecil Bullard: Yeah, how could that... You- you ignored that completely, and now there's some minuscule... So I go for a ride with the guy, and it's actually a squeak coming out of one of the struts. Going over a bump, right? I didn't ask enough questions. I didn't, as the service advisor. And so now, the customer's already paid. They didn't pay enough 'cause I discounted it because it was so easy to, you know- Yeah ... fix, and I felt bad. And now I've gotta give it to a tech and track, put ears on it and track the noise down, and we end up replacing struts. But that's an example of not really understanding the customer's complaint, and that's- For sure ... that's the first, that's the first C. For sure. Lucas Underwood: And look, I'm gonna tell you, this is something that, that I have been through with my team over and over again. We're not just talking about understanding the complaint alone. We're trying to understand their desired outcome. Yeah. We're trying to understand what it is they're trying to accomplish. Yeah. Because if you knew the number of times that I have been working with a client, and they're like, "Hey, I have this noise." And we're talking, and we go all the way through it, and I fix the noise, right? I call them and say this. And I found out later that here I am, I'm on the telephone with them, and I'm talking through, "Oh, the noise. Yep, absolutely. Got this taken care of." Oh, you got this. But I wasn't active listening. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: They were saying, "Hey, I'm not worried about the noise, but there's this thing." Yeah. And so i- if we're not active listening and paying attention to what they actually want to accomplish... and Susan just came back from the advisor intensive. Yeah. And she said one of the things that she brought up is that, hey, I've been on to her. "Hey, convey to the technicians what it is the consumer's trying to achieve." Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: Like- Yeah ... let's talk about what this is. So Cecil Bullard: maybe we need to, we n- maybe we need to create a sixth C, or maybe it's five Cs and an, a- an A- Yeah ... or something because- ... what is it the customer wants? When they walk away at the end of the, at the end of the interaction, what are they really what are they really searching for? Yeah. And I hope that through the five Cs we actually- Find it, we get it, we confirm it, et cetera. So first C is the customer's complaint. The second is the confirmation of the complaint. Yeah. I need somebody in my business to have felt, experienced heard whatever it is the customer is complaining about. Because, I had a guy who worked for me love... One of my best employees ever, do anything for you. Deaf as a post, yeah. And so if you sent him out on any kind of a noise complaint i- with a car, he'd come back and say, "Not a thing. All this... I can't... There's nothing." And I go drive that thing, and sure enough the, there's a noise. And so somehow I want a confirmation. Whether it's the service advisor that, that drives with the customer and hears the noise. One of my questions as a service advisor was, "Can you duplicate the noise?" Yes. "Can you make it happen-" Yes ... at will? And if the customer said, "Yeah," I'm like, "Let's go for a ride," right? Yeah. I wanna hear the noise, right? Because when it's all done, the, I'm the guy who's responsible as the service advisor for making sure that the customer gets what they expected, and that's no noise, right? The, a solution- ... to their problem. How do we create a list of the right questions to ask? Yeah, that's Lucas Underwood: a... Cecil Bullard: Yeah, that's a great question. And ensure we capture it properly. I think that number one, there's an experience. I think at one point there's somewhere I have a list of questions that would be asked. Yeah. Some of my- A Lucas Underwood: diagnostic questionnaire or something ... Cecil Bullard: some of my shops have a diagnostic questionnaire that they use with the client to help make sure some of that doesn't get missed, right? And I think that as a... I need to be, I don't know, I need to be an investigator as a service advisor and I need to ask probably five more questions than I probably would ask anyway, right? Yeah. I would really like the consumer to say, "Wow, that's a lot of questions." Because I tell my service advisors, I, or I used to "I don't wanna know that it's got a noise. That's simple. What I wanna know is how often can it be recreated? When does it happen? Under what circumstances? At what temperature? Driving on what roads?" Yeah. I'd like to pinpoint it so much so that you could say it only happens on Tuesdays and Thursdays between 1:00 and 2:00, going uphill- Come- On X road. I want Lucas Underwood: every bit of Cecil Bullard: detail Lucas Underwood: you can get me. Yeah. I, you know how many complaints that I get from technicians who say, "These advisors are lazy. These advisors aren't getting me what I need. These advisors are frustrating me. These advisors are causing me extra work. These advisors are running me around like crazy"? Well- And, and- There's a Cecil Bullard: natural tension, right? I mean- Lucas Underwood: There is. Yeah. But just good questions can make all the difference in the world. It can. Getting this information, asking better questions. Because look, it only makes the technician more efficient, and when the technician's more efficient, guess what? You're gonna sell more work, Mr. Advisor. Cecil Bullard: More productivity equals- Yeah ... more money in the bank. And also less frustration, and that's- Exactly ... for me, that's kinda the point. I don't want anyone in my business to be frustrated. Yeah. Frustration you don't work at your best when you're frustrated. Yeah. I don't care what, which job you're doing you just don't work at your best. Yeah. And I want a confirmation. I want in the write-up Someone to say, "I took the car, I drove the car, I heard the noise, I experienced the problem and I need that in the write-up." Yeah. Not just the car has a noise. We replaced the upper control arms, and now it doesn't have a noise. Yeah. I need to... that customer could have another problem six months from now, two years from now. Yeah. Most shops now are y- are probably at least three year, 36,000-mile warranty on most of what they do. And so if that customer comes in two years from now and there's a different service advisor or even myself, I'm not necessarily gonna remember everything that happened. Yeah ... I wanna be able to read that work order and understand not the process, what we went through, what we experienced, why we did what we did. Yes. And I wanna be able to really clarify that for the for my client. I, hey- and it has little to do with court, but I gotta tell you, even yesterday I'm talking to a client and they're like- ... "Oh, I'm in trouble. This customer wants $1,700 back for X, Y, and Z." And I'm like, "Okay. Did you take pictures of the service and the repair that the car was fixed when you did what you did?" "No the tech always forgets to take pictures. They won't take pictures." Yeah. Whatever. And looking at the write-up, there's no clear why we did what we did and what the outcome was. For sure. Lucas Underwood: Absolutely. Cecil Bullard: It's just we replaced the upper control arm bushings. Okay. And if you go to court with that, you're dead. You- Lucas Underwood: Exactly ... Cecil Bullard: don't go. Lucas Underwood: I'm gonna tell you a little story, okay? Years ago, and it was when I first started kinda learning how to run the business, I'd hired my first coach at the time, and a guy came in, and he came from a local rental place, and he was tearing a building down. He was loading the building up, and he was taking it back, and he's kinda like one of these hotshot truck drivers, except he was doing work while he was on site. And if I remember, I'll go post pictures of this at some point. I gotta be careful about it 'cause I don't wanna alert anybody, but so long story short, this gentleman has a brake problem, and I get done with the c- with the truck, and I did the things he wanted done, and I said, "I'm gonna tell you something. I don't trust this thing. It's not stopping right. I couldn't tell you why." And I need to do more testing to determine what that is. You're telling me you need to leave right now, but something does not feel right. Something is not right here. And so I'd driven it, and this was right when I first started learning to write repair orders, and so I put all over that ticket, the brakes are not right, the client declined additional testing, we offered to do the testing for free, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We don't know what the results might be of this. And so few days later, the guy who referred him out here and he said, "Hey man," he said, "Is this that truck that you were telling me about that I sent over?" And it's this picture, and this thing, Cecil, there's nothing left of it. Yeah. It's in pieces. The cab's ripped off of it. The axles are out from underneath it. The bed's ripped off of it. Now, the highway patrol shows up out here at the shop. Yeah. And he walks in and he's asking all these questions about the truck, and I said, "Here..." "Here's what I have, and here's the signed repair order where they signed off picking the truck up, and here's all the information that I had about the truck." He said, "I've never seen anything like this." He said, "I've never seen this written up." He said, "You were in the clear anyway." And I said, "Why?" He said, "Because he went off the top of that mountain with 42,000 pounds on a truck that was rated for 12." Cecil Bullard: Yeah. He said, "There was-" you know why it wouldn't stop, right? He said- I don't know why. Maybe it's 42,000 pounds in the back- ... when it's only supposed to have 12. Lucas Underwood: Exactly. And so he was- Wow ... he was super cool about it, but he said, "Man," he said, "I'm telling you," he said, "That just..." He said, "That's all I need. What you put on there is enough for me-" Yeah ... "to know that the driver was at fault for this accident." He said, "Because you told him as a professional something was wrong." Which, yeah, and- The number of tickets we see that have nothing on it- Yeah ... fixed brakes. I probably see 10 to 15 of those that come into my shop, dealers, independent shops, the whole nine yards, and they bring me their service history and I'm like Fixed brakes Cecil Bullard: So think about this, 'cause I don't think any shop owner understands the liability that they have. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: So I put a fixed brakes on the work order- Yeah ... and I don't write anything else. I don't write what I found, I don't write why I fixed them, I don't write what happened when they were fixed and how it rode. Yeah. I do nothing but fixed brakes, right? Lucas Underwood: Yep. Cecil Bullard: And that guy goes out and drives it off a mountain and all of a sudden I'm in the middle of a lawsuit that could cost me everything I have. And you think, you would think that wait a minute. I'm a corporation, I'm an LLC or a, an S corp or whatever, so I'm protected as the owner." If there's- Yeah ... anything illegal that goes on, your protection is wiped away. Gone. And so- Yeah, Lucas Underwood: buddy. If you've ever- And- ... pierced the corporate veil- Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: And then- ... they can find out anything. Cecil Bullard: And then I have the excuses of it takes too long to write the work order." Okay. Charge the customer for it. Yeah. I mean- Yeah ... if I have to document and I have to do a good job of documenting what happened and it takes an extra 20 minutes, then raise your labor rate. Or I don't know- Yeah ... add another 20 minutes to the work order to, so that you can document properly, because it's too important, right? Lucas Underwood: It is. Cecil Bullard: So I- It's too Lucas Underwood: important ... I've got a question though because it- Okay ... this is something that comes up. I've got a lot of shop owners that I talk to about this and they say no, you're better off putting less information on there, because then if you put more information, they could say you touched something. You did something. You took something apart.'" From my experiences, that's not the case. I- Cecil Bullard: I have never gone to court. I've gone to court personally for myself like four times. Yeah. I've gone to court 13 times for clients. I've been asked to go to court probably 50. All right? The 47 times I did not go to court- Were because the paperwork wasn't done right. Yeah. There wasn't enough information. Okay? The 13 times I went to court, I won. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Because the paperwork was done properly, because everything- Yeah ... was spelled out correctly. Because the signatures were in the right places. Because the mileage when it came in was on, and the mileage when it left was on. I had a lady with a Chrysler. It's one of my favorite stories. Really nice older lady. Came in, we did, I don't know, $3,500 worth of work to it. Struts, suspension work, tires, brakes, blah, blah, blah. And as part of what we did, we documented the fluids. We documented that the transmission fluid was good. We documented that the transmission was shifting properly. We documented that the engine was running well, that there were no oil leaks at the time that we were driving the car. We drove the car, I don't know, 22 miles as part of what we did. And 800 miles later, about three and a half weeks later, the transmission crapped itself. Okay? 123,000 mile, 140,000 mile Chrysler. Old Chrysler, yeah. Yeah. And so she came in hot. And I brought out the work order. I looked at what we did. I looked at why we did it. I told her, I said, "Look, see here? We checked the fluid. Here's a picture of the fluid. It looked good. There was no metal in it. See here? We drove the vehicle. We drove the vehicle, 22 miles. It was shifting perfectly. There were no problems with the way it shifted. So let me ask you a question. I just wanna ask you one question." She said, "Okay, fine." "Should we have sold you a transmission At, 800 miles ago when it was, when the fluid was good and the transmission was shifting perfectly as a precaution just because you had 123,000 miles on your car. And she looked at me and she went, "No, probably not." Okay, great. And but if you don't have the story, you can't back up what you did and why you did it. Yeah. Yeah. You have to have the story. And it, I don't know. For me if you're a service advisor in my shop, which okay, I don't have one today but I certainly ran a lot of shops for many years. And you're a service advisor in my shop, and you're not gonna write the story out, and you're not gonna create the right documentation, you're not gonna work for me. Yeah. And if I have to take over for you at 3:00 'cause you got a dentist appointment or you gotta go to your daughter's dance recital or whatever, and there's no information for me, the next day's gonna be a hard day for you, Lucas Underwood: right? Yeah. Absolutely, man. We- Absolutely ... Cecil Bullard: we should get in the pattern. So let's talk C number three, right? Okay. We talked about two. Number three is what's the cause? What is causing the vehicle? And I can tell you in my shops we use what we call a two arrow approach. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Okay? So you can't tell me that the code was whatever and it means that the number five spark plug wasn't firing properly. That's ... Okay, that's, that is not necessarily the cause. That's the out- an outcome, right? And you can't say we need to replace the number five spark plug because the code was here." I want testing done that tracks it to say, "This is what we're replacing, and this is why we're replacing it." Yeah. I want a second arrow. And so- For sure ... all of my guys knew if they didn't have a two arrow approach we, w- I wasn't selling it. Okay? Yeah. Or I might call the customer and say, "Look, we need to do some additional testing." I didn't have a problem with a guy coming to me and saying, "Hey, Cecil- ... I gotta run three more tests and then I need two more hours to, to really figure out what this is." Lucas Underwood: Exactly. Does not bother me a bit. Cecil Bullard: Not even- I'll do it Lucas Underwood: all day long. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. But I do have a problem with the computer basically told me number five cylinder." Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And- Absolutely. Lucas Underwood: 100% Cecil Bullard: Because I know having done this for a million years, right? Look at me, I look like I'm a million and a half. But that's a problem waiting to happen- It is ... if we don't have a clear what the cause is. Lucas Underwood: And I'm gonna tell you something. So there's this new and it relates to this question that's coming up right now, so leave the question up. There's apps now, like WhisperFlow, right? And so I can open this app on my phone, and I can dictate directly to it. Does an- ... excellent job of dictating what I'm saying, and even if I wanted to drop it into AI and have AI clean it up and make it more presentable, and I copy and paste it in, you're talking about 15, 20, 30 seconds of me describing- Yes through voice transcription what's going on with this car. So we're not talking about adding a lot of time. We're talking about converting the expertise of the technician To text on the repair order that the consumer could understand and that if, God forbid, you ever had to go to court the judge could read it and understand it. There are a ton of videos of court cases where- Yeah ... a technician is in court explaining what happened, right? And listen, I'm gonna tell you something, because this says, "Isn't it the technician's job to document all these things on the repair order?" A lot of it is, right? The initial stuff, in other words, where we're talking to the client, trying to understand what's happening, that is the service Cecil Bullard: advisor. Service advisor. St- begins the Lucas Underwood: story. But everything else... Exactly. The beginning of the story- Everything else does come to the tech ... Cecil Bullard: the beginning of the story and the end of the story are the service advisor. Lucas Underwood: Yes. Cecil Bullard: Okay? Lucas Underwood: 100%. Cecil Bullard: The middle is the tech. Today. Now, 20 years ago, that wasn't true. All right? Yeah. We didn't have systems where the techs could go in and put the story, and we still have a lot of shops where there's communication issues with the technician that they don't speak, English as a second language or a third language and they just- Yeah ... don't communicate very well. Yes, I want my technician documenting the tests they ran, what the outcomes were. And by, by the way, if, i- again, if you're working for me, let's say that we got an air conditioning system. I want documentation a problem with the air conditioning. Air conditioning doesn't cool. Blows hot air, right? Okay. When? All the time. All right, great. Now I wanna put the gauges on it. I wanna document the pressures. I wanna document- Vent temps ... the vent temps, et cetera, and I want someone to test drive it to verify that it's got hot air, right? Yeah. And under what conditions. All right? 100%, yeah. And a- and that's the tech is, that, that's going to do that for me. Now, we're gonna recommend we're gonna point to a cause. The compressor's bad, right? And we're gonna point to a cure, the fourth C. What's the cure? We're gonna replace the compressor. We're going to replace the condenser. We're gonna replace the I don't know what they have in POA valves- Orphus tubes ... or Orphus tubes or whatever we got today. And then we're gonna evac and recharge the system, right? That's the repair plan. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And in my opinion, the technician's the one that has to create the repair plan, okay? Yeah. And once we've done that- I want a retest of the system. Lucas Underwood: Yes. Cecil Bullard: I wanna know what's different. What were the pressures today- Yep ... when we drove it? And I wanna show by mileage that we actually drove the car. I don't- Yeah ... I want an in and out mileage on everything. Yeah. I don't care if you drove it just a mile test drive, so it came in at, I don't know, 143,000 miles and it left at 143,001. Yeah. But I want the finish of the story. Here's what happened after we fixed it. Yeah. Here's what it looks like. Here's what it feels like- You're exactly right ... today, right? Lucas Underwood: Yes. Cecil Bullard: And because I'm, what I'm doing is I'm also creating a story for the customer so they understand that I didn't just fix the air conditioning, right? Yeah. And I do that in quotes on purpose, right? Because if all I did was fix the air conditioning, what is that, right? Yeah. Oh, you put a little Freon in it. What does that take? Five minutes? Yeah. They make those little cans that you can go down to Pep Boys and buy, and you just put 'em on and turn 'em upside down- The bane of my existence ... and in five minutes the Freon's in the thing and you're done, right? No. We did all of this testing. We did this. We pulled these parts off. We put these parts on. The cleaner and the clearer the story- Yeah ... the less liability I have. If I have to go to court- The more value in the ticket ... or if I have to defend my... Yeah. If I have to defend myself- Yeah ... the more able I am to. And I, don't get me wrong, I don't wanna create a four-page story if there should be a half a page story. Yeah. I used to tell my techs, if you can tell me the service advisor. So when you're writing the work order, a- as a service advisor I always felt like I needed four pieces of information from my tech. One, tell me what's wrong. Okay? Tell me why it's wrong, right? Brakes are worn and need to be replaced. Okay? They're at two 30 seconds, one 30 second, metal to metal. Te- tell me that. Tell me the parts you need to do the job correctly. So is it pads? Yeah. Is it pads and rotors? Is it pads and rotors and a hardware kit? Is it pads, rotors, and a hardware kit, and calipers and hoses? What is it? And then tell me how much time you think it's gonna take. Yeah, for sure. I get that we have a book, and I understand- ... that the book is write X-tra Mile. But you're the one looking Lucas Underwood: at the car, not me. Yeah. I can't tell you how long it's gonna Cecil Bullard: take. You s- you see the fact that somebody has, you know- Yeah ... narfed up the bolts and et cetera, or there's rust or whatever. Tell me what you think and- Yeah ... and then I can create an estimate. And if I get those four pieces of information, they're clear enough, then I can create an estimate and sell that work to a customer. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: I have an... Here, so you gotta bring me back, man, 'cause I'll go, you know me, I'll go- Down the rabbit hole ... Lucas Underwood: way with Cecil Bullard: it. But I ha- I have customers that just they don't get that from the techs, and then the service advisor can't do their job properly. And what they want is for the service advisor to go out and look at the car. Yeah. I don't wanna go out and look at the car. In fact, there's a whole coaching company that's service advisors should be the ones looking at the car because then they can see..." Service advisor, if you're not a good- They're not the professional ... it's not their job and they're not the person. That's the job of the inspection of the car and the repair- Yeah ... plan for the car is the technician's job, Lucas Underwood: right? Exactly. And look, if you know how many times that I have worked with shops and somehow that advisor ends up walking out to the car, making a recommendation, saying, "We should do this, we should do that," used to be a technician. And it's this desire, it's like a curse of knowledge. I wanna fix this thing. I wanna help. I wanna show them I know what I'm talking about. And they get so overzealous that they end up making a mess. And so I think, somebody just dropped in the comments and said, "Hey, that's the responsibility of the shop to train the tech." Stop the Cecil Bullard: technician. Absolutely. I thought it was a- I got a comment I have to make. Matt Allen, go screw yourself, buddy. Lucas Underwood: I Cecil Bullard: thought that you were saying- I was in business for 27 years, and that whole time I ended up in court four times. All right? I went 13 times for different clients, and I've had thousands of clients. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: So buddy, you know- ... stop trying to yank my crank. Lucas Underwood: Diesel's, diesel does not Cecil Bullard: put up with any of that. And go screw yourself. Have a nice day. Oh, Lucas Underwood: that's awesome. Now, Cecil Bullard: where were we? Lucas Underwood: That's awesome. Okay. Cecil Bullard: Look- you wanted some fire, there's some fire, Matt. Lucas Underwood: You got the fire. Cecil Bullard: You can add that to your- This is gonna Lucas Underwood: be a real, Cecil Bullard: we're gonna chop this up to your internet and get some hits Cecil's a mean guy. Lucas Underwood: He's Cecil Bullard: an Lucas Underwood: idiot That's it. That's it Thank you very much. I, look I'm just gonna say that I think that overall when we look at this process, 'cause I just had a good talk with a friend of mine just I guess two nights ago, and he said, "Man," he said, "My technicians came to me and they said, 'Hey, we don't feel it's our responsibility to put all this information down. That's the front's responsibility.'" And I'm gonna tell you something, I, one of the biggest things that I've learned, and we... You remember Jeremy Hoyum? He's from Phoenix. And Jeremy is just such a phenomenal human being. And he was talking about this a while back, and he was talking about accountability, and he said... A- and let me explain. So he coaches 15, 16, 17, 18-year-olds into leaders, right? Because he was in the military, he came out of the military, and he went into the family entertainment space. And here he is, he's saying all this stuff, and he's trying to teach these kids how to work in a business and how to talk to people. And in today's world, I'm gonna tell you, that's a whole different ball game, right? It's a whole different ball game. Yeah. And he said, the failure..." And listen, he's worked for some massive organizations, right? Like- Yeah ... thousands and thousands of employees. Yeah. And this guy's in charge of training them. And he said, "The problem is that we don't have the conversation when it happens." And he said, "So listen-" Wait, well- Go ahead. Cecil Bullard: We are so great at- At picking up the pieces at the end. We're not really great at fixing the process- Definitely ... in the middle. Lucas Underwood: Exactly. Okay. So he tells this story. It's about taking the trash out, right? And he says so Tim is a new employee." And he said, "So Tim comes in and I trained Tim on how to do all the things." And he said, "At the end of the training, I talked to Tim about taking the trash out. 'Tim, you take all the other cans and you put them in this bag. You tie this bag up, you take it out, and you put it in the dumpster.'" And he said, "So Tim comes to work for me," and he said, "Here we are, it's four days in, Tim's taking out the trash every day, and I come in, and Tim didn't take the trash out." And I said but Tim's a nice guy. I really like Tim, and I don't wanna pick on him. I'll just take the trash out." And he said, so it goes on a little bit, and he said, "Three weeks later, Tim doesn't take out the trash again." He said, "Man, what is up with this kid? I've told him about this, and I need to go talk to him. I open the door and the place is full of people." He said, "I can't talk to Tim right now." He said, "So I forget about it. A few more weeks pass, and Tim forgets the trash again." He said, "Now I'm really upset. I'm frustrated. Why is this kid not taking the trash out? I've, Because I've had this experience, I'm thinking about it like Tim should be able to read my mind and know I'm frustrated, right?" And he said, "So what happens is here's Tim, and we're not taking the trash out, and I'm raging, and I sling my door open. Tim's not at work today. And so now the next time Tim doesn't take out the trash, I go and pull him aside and I rip him apart." And- "What were you thinking? You didn't take the trash out." Cecil Bullard: Yeah. And what I should have done is the first time the trash wasn't taken, I said, "Hey, Tim, what's the process? How do you do this?" Lucas Underwood: Exactly. "How often do you do this?" Exactly. He said there's only three answers. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: There's the right answer, a partial right answer, and there's the wrong answer. Yeah. And he said the partial right and the wrong answer are my fault, not Tim's, right? And Cecil Bullard: If you're if you're paying attention- Lucas Underwood: Yeah Cecil Bullard: and you're doing the right things, then your employees are gonna understand you're paying attention. They're much more likely to go ahead and do what needs to be done. Lucas Underwood: Exactly. Cecil Bullard: If you'd handled it in the beginning, you didn't have to get mad, right? Yeah. Lucas Underwood: And we, we- I talk a lot about- Cecil Bullard: Yeah Tim Kite. We struggle. Lucas Underwood: You remember Tim Kite? And I talk a lot about him. I've sent you a couple of his videos, and one of the things that Tim Kite said is, "You promote what you permit." Yeah. And so Tanner is in the comments. Tanner is the shop owner that I'm talking about. Yeah. And it's like Tanner gets distracted, and he goes and he wants to do all these new great big things. Now I'm over here doing this, now I'm over here doing this, now I'm over here doing this. But you weren't holding your team accountable. Yeah. And so if I'm not holding my team accountable, and if I'm not policing the work orders, and I'm not reviewing the work orders, and I'm not doing an audit, and I'm not checking in with my team and saying, "Hey, this didn't meet my expectation"- and if I continue to let it slide- Cecil Bullard: Yeah, and do you have it documented how the work order's sp- supposed to be written up? Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: I don't know. I think mine is like seven pages with pictures of the order, why it's in that order how it's written up, whose responsibility is each piece of it, right? Yeah. And so that, and, is it the technician's job to do all of that? Eh, maybe s- maybe not. You might have a different process in your shop. Yeah. It's management's job to make sure everybody that's involved in the process understands clearly their part of the process- For sure ... and how to communicate clearly. Lucas Underwood: And that the process is efficient, right? Yeah. Like I, that's what I hear from so many technicians and so many advisors is, "Hey, our process does not flow. Our process does not work in our shop." And so nobody's looking at it. It's just we've always done it this way." Yeah. Okay. Let's work together to figure out how the process needs to work. And one of the greatest piece of visi- pieces of advice I've ever gotten was that repair order comes up and it's not right, it goes back, right? Cecil Bullard: Yes. Lucas Underwood: Yes. I'm not moving forward until it's fixed. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: I'm stopping right here right now. You're not going on to another car- Well- ... until you correct this repair order ... Cecil Bullard: you put quality control in place as part of your process. Yeah. So in our shop we had a parts guy. We felt like that was a value to us, and so we had a parts guy, so he was the first one to see the work order from the tech. If the inspection sheet, w- again, we're talking a few years ago, we didn't have DBIs, but if the sheet wasn't filled out properly and the estimate wasn't filled out properly, the tech got called in to redo it. Yeah. The work order didn't move. Yeah. And if that means the customer didn't get their car today- Oh right? Yeah. I know I've disappointed a lot of people about getting their car today. Sometimes because of parts, sometimes for other issues. Sometimes it's because my tech wasn't playing the game right, and we had to, send it back two or three times. Yeah. But the other thing is i- if you're willing to put that effort in and make sure that the job is done as efficiently and correctly as possible, and then you have quality control. When I first got to the last shop that I ran, I, for probably three months, I QC'd every work order- ... because it was so messed up. Yeah. At the end of three months, 95% of the work orders were going through fine. Yeah. The stories were good. The stuff was in the right order. The estimates were done. The inspection sheets matched the estimates. The service advisor had written everything up and presented everything, and the work order had the customer did not buy these things, here's why we recommended them- Yeah. Declined repairs ... at this time, right? Yeah. Declined repairs- Yeah ... et cetera. We had a very specific way all that was done. It was documented in a process. It was taught to everybody. It was retaught to everybody. It was quality controlled throughout. So the parts guy's the first guy to look, the second guy's the service advisor, the third guy's the manager, right? Yeah. And as a manager, after three months, I started pulling one day a week. Yeah. I didn't need to look at every work order because I had the other things in play. I only had to pull one day a week and look at them to make sure that we were still on target, right? Yeah. I'm l- I'm looking for pattern failure. I'm not looking for, oops, somebody made a mistake and missed one piece, right? Lucas Underwood: Exactly. Cecil Bullard: And- Exactly ... and so I'm trying, I'm always trying to identify pattern failure because pattern fails then get you in trouble, right? Lucas Underwood: I've got a question for you and see if this resonates with you, because this is something that when I first started really working on my shop and learning about how a shop should run and what a shop was supposed to do, that this was the biggest issue that I had, and I just wanna see if this resonates. When I put these processes, policies, and procedures in place, and I made a video about this just the other day, I oftentimes said, "Yeah Mrs. Smith's in a hurry, so I'm not gonna do that today," or, "This happened, so I'm not gonna do that today," or, "Oh, they can bring their own parts this time because I don't want to upset them And so I put processes, policies, and procedures in place, and as the business owner, I gave myself permission to override them because I- it was my name on the door, right? And I'll never forget, I had an employee come to me one time and "This is asinine. Why are we even, why do we even have rules if we're not gonna follow them?" I'm like I'm, but I'm the owner." And they were like but you put the rules in place, and that they're the, they're making the mess. Like, why are we doing this?" I Cecil Bullard: think, I think- And that made Lucas Underwood: so much sense ... Cecil Bullard: I think we need to be smart about exceptions, and I think there are exceptions. Yeah ... I have a rule that no owner supplied parts. None. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: But I have Mrs. Jones that's been a customer for 35 years. Her husband died five years ago. They brought their oil because, 25 years ago we let people bring their own oil. Yeah. And so she's just used to bringing her oil. I'm not gonna beat Mrs. Smith up about bringing her oil. I'm, you know- ... d- I'm paying back 35 years of a great customer- Of Lucas Underwood: loyalty, yeah ... Cecil Bullard: yeah, et cetera. And I think my staff would understand, yeah, we do have a rule. It is, the only exception is Mrs. Smith. So number one, few exceptions. Yeah. Number two, if you are the owner You have to abide by the rules better and more- Yes ... than anyone else in the business. If you're a manager, if you're a leader in that company, you abide by the rules better than anyone else. Yes. Because they're looking at you and they're saying that's a stupid rule. I don't know if I wanna do that. And wait, Lucas didn't do it." Yep. "If he doesn't have to do it, I don't have to do it." Yep. And pretty soon- Or every Lucas Underwood: staff ... Cecil Bullard: pretty soon there's no process. Lucas Underwood: Yep. Cecil Bullard: And pretty soon- It's not a rule anymore your average repair order's dropped- A suggestion ... your productivity's dropped. Yeah, and you're just not making money the way that you should. You're not profitable the way that you should. Lucas Underwood: And it's chaos, right? Yeah. It's pure chaos because now the standard that we're supposed to be operating by is no longer functioning. And if we continue to break that and we continue to say, "Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, but." And look I have exceptions too. Yeah. But we've gotten really good about "Hey, let's have a discussion about this exception and make sure we all agree that this exception is reasonable and rational," right? Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: I love the- Let's not just jump at it ... Cecil Bullard: yeah, I love the, I'll tell someone, "No waiters." Waiters are not... It's not in your favor to have a waiter in your shop. They're not thinking right, they're not in the right place. But again, I have Mrs. Jones, who's always waited for her car. Yeah. She's got nowhere else to be. Being at the shop is an exciting thing for her. Yeah. Because otherwise she's sitting at home, staring at the walls. And- Yeah ... and so yeah, I'm gonna let Mrs. Jones come in and wait. And that's... And I've also got somebody who, their car broke down on the road and they're with the car, and they don't have an option. They've got a car, they've gotta be somewhere, we're fixing the car, they're gonna sit around and wait. They're... Yeah, I'm gonna let them wait. They... We need to have common sense. Lucas Underwood: Yes. Cecil Bullard: But we also need to have policies and processes that are followed 99% of the time, right? By everybody. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And that's what, that's what creates efficiencies in your business. If it, if done right- It's a ballet, right? Yes. Yeah. The call is answered right, the customer feels good about coming to, they feel like you care about 'em, they feel like you've listened to them et cetera. They show up, you're there to greet 'em, shake their hand, say hi, pump up the shop and why, talk about your unique selling proposition. Ask them questions so that you are sure that you understood what the situation is, what their out- desired outcome is, what their problem is. Document that properly so the technician can pick it up. If necessary, and I can't... If I have to write a five-page story for the tech I'm probably not writing that five-page story. That's the one that I'm gonna write a one-page story, and then I'm gonna go out and talk to the tech about. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Yeah. " Cecil Bullard: Hey, I just wanted you to know, here's some strange things or different things," or whatever. And then the tech gets the work order and knows what to do and documents the stuff properly, beginning, middle, and end. And then it goes to the, in our shop, the parts guy, who then verified that we made our profit and that we stayed within the estimates that we talked to our customer about, and et cetera. And then the service advisor gets it and verifies again that the parts are done right, the margins are there, the stories are correct, the spelling is 99% good, the grammar is 99% good. Yeah. That two years from now, somebody picks this up, they know what happened. If a w- a, a a wife takes that home to her husband and hands it to her husband, he could read it and understand- Yes. Yeah ... not just what was done, but why it was done, and create value there, or vice versa. If a husband takes it home to his wife, right? I'm not being misogynist here. I'm literally saying there are often- Yeah ... other people involved. That work order could go- Yeah ... in any one of a number of people's hands, and Lucas Underwood: my- And they need to be able to understand it. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Yeah, my story. Lucas Underwood: And same for me, right? That's a major thing for me, because there's nothing more embarrassing than that car coming back a year later. Yeah. And me standing here saying, "I wish I could tell you why we did what we did or why I thought we needed to do that," or whatever it may be, but I can't. Cecil Bullard: You know what I r- ... what I really hate? I've got a customer standing in front of me, and the customer says "Hey how are my tire pressures?" And I look down And there's no tire pressure recorded Lucas Underwood: So embarrassing. Cecil Bullard: Or, how are my bra- I thought my front brakes might be bad. Oh, no, it says here your front brakes are good. Well- They're green ... how much is l- how much is left, right? The I don't have the information I need, even right at my counter. I took my truck in the local Goodyear, and I said, "Align it. ... You're putting tires on it, align it. The tires are worn." We put I put brakes with what it drilled and slotted rotors. Yeah. I spent big money and put tires on it at the same time, said, "Align it and check it out w- when you do the service," right? When I come back and the guy says I said, "There, there's nothing here on the inspection. Nothing." And he goes you only have 43,000 miles. It's probably fine." Lucas Underwood: It's probably fine. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. And I said, "And you didn't align it." It was close enough." I'm not a close enough guy. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And- Lucas Underwood: Close enough counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. And I ended up taking my truck somewhere else, and they did the alignment, and they bought, for the rear part of it, they had to buy whatever to make the alignment work and, the- Yeah ... I don't know, I spent another $1,200 on this thing that... And at the same time, I'm at the Goodyear, they're complaining about how bad business is, right? You could've got another 1,200 bucks out of me- Yeah ... if you'd have done it right. Lucas Underwood: How much of that, though, okay, so let's go back to Michael Smith for a minute. How much of that is culture? How mu- Well- ... like if in your shop, because in my shop I walk out here and I talk to these guys. Their focus is taking care of the client. Their focus is being an advocate for the client, because that's what we talk about. That's what we do. Yeah, and- That's what we believe Cecil Bullard: in ... and do they understand what that really means in the day-to-day operation- Yeah ... have I- ... it's one thing for me to say we're here to take care of the client." It's another thing for me to have the systems and processes in play that get taught and that my people really understand what that means. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. E- exactly, and my thing is, "Hey, if you don't understand this and you don't know why we're doing what we're doing, let's talk about it as a team," right? But you look at some of these other shops, and I've talked to a lot of guys from those other shops, and what do they say? It's the only thing they talk to us about is money and production. Yeah. That's all they talk about. And the advisor's over here saying, "I'm not gonna get my bonus if you don't get this done," and the technician's saying I'm not gonna get a bonus anyway. I get paid flat rate, and you're not giving me enough work," and it becomes this dog-eat-dog thing. There's a whole- As opposed to the focus being taking care of the client ... Cecil Bullard: there's a whole methodology for running an automotive business and making it as efficient and creating the best culture that you can in the business. And then there's, it, there's a lot involved, but there really isn't, right? Yeah. You could say geez, I have to think about hiring and my hiring message, and I need to have, a employee requisition form because I need to know what the skillsets and the traits are that I need from the new employee so they fit into my culture. And I need to have a good interview process and then I need to have a good training process, and I need to have the processes to train on," right? "And then I need this and I need this and I need this." And I think for a lot of guys, they're just trying to get the job done so they can get the money so they can pay the bills. And a- as you said in the beginning of this or in, in early parts of this, we're- We miss the, like we don't fix the problem when the problem should be fixed. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. We- we're really good at saying, "I can't do that I can't have that conversation right now because there's people." Okay. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Then let's go for a walk, right? Yeah ... I'll go for a walk 100 yards away from everybody else. I'll have the conversation about the trash cans and taking the trash out. Yeah. I don't... Or I'll put it on my calendar for tomorrow and say, "Can you meet me in my office at 10:00 so that we can have a-" Yeah. "I need to speak to you for 10 minutes," right? Yeah. We, w- we are so often, overwhelmed with making the money and just trying to make sure that the bills are paid that we miss some of the really important pieces. And it is, once you have the team on track and you have the culture, it makes it a lot easier. Yeah. When you have the processes, it makes it a lot easier. If you create consistent communication, company meetings at the right times well-defined it makes it easier, right? Yeah. And with every little thing that you are able to put in place, everything that you're able to fix, every time you do that, it makes it easier, and you're also more likely to get the outcome that you want. Yeah. Which frankly it isn't all about money. It has to be somewhat about money because if I can't- Yeah ... pay my bills, then I'm working all the time- ... and I'm not home, and my head's not in the game a- at home, and I need that too. Lucas Underwood: I'm gonna tell you something. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: I talk to a lot of shop owners. I talk to a lot of- ... technicians, and I talk to a lot of service advisors And they all believe that one of those others is looking at what they can get from them, right? Yeah. The shop owner's looking at how much money you can make me. The advisor's looking at how many hours you can turn and what I can get out of the deal, and the technician's looking at how many hours he's gonna get on his ticket. And you know the interesting thing about it, Cecil, is when I talk to them individually, none of them actually want that. None of them actually believe that. They just want to come to work. They wanna earn a good living. Sure. They don't want it to be stressful. They don't want it to be aggravating. They don't want it to be a mess. They don't wanna get yelled at by a client. They don't wanna get yelled at by a coworker. They just want to live a good life, right? Cecil Bullard: The point i- in a way is first of all, I always say this: automotive service and repair is a team sport. Lucas Underwood: Yes. Yes. Cecil Bullard: The service advisor is not more important than the tech, and the owner is not more important than the service advisor or the tech. Yeah. And the kid that cleans the floors and takes the trash out, whoever that is- ... or the old per- old guy that does. Who knows- Yeah ... I, my next career. That, that person is just as important. I- if we all- Yeah ... play our roles and do our thing, we're all gonna be fine. Lucas Underwood: You're exactly right. Remember what Zig Ziglar said? He said years ago, and he said the CEO could leave for a month and nobody would notice." Cecil Bullard: Yeah. " Lucas Underwood: But if the lady who answers the phone were to leave for a month, the place would fall apart." Cecil Bullard: Fall apart. Lucas Underwood: Because the director of first impressions was no longer present, right? And you need- And we just miss it. We Cecil Bullard: just- Yeah ... Lucas Underwood: don't see Cecil Bullard: it. And you also need to cross-train because you are gonna have people that are gonna be out, and so- Yeah ... it, the- Like I said, to me, running a shop and a successful shop is really fairly easy. Yeah. There's, th- there's always gonna be some issue. "Hey, our car count's down. Hey, our average repair order's dropped." Okay. If you have the methodologies in place to measure and the methodologies in place to manage, then you're gonna be okay, right? Lucas Underwood: That's it. You'll make it through the- As long as you'll learn, right? Yeah. As long as you're willing to open your mind, do a little bit of research, learn from people who have been there before because, there's way smarter people out there than me, and I don't need to- See- reinvent the wheel. Cecil Bullard: You see this flat spot on my head? Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: So that's from banging it against the wall way too many times. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: So we haven't covered all five Cs. Lucas Underwood: Yeah, we got one more. One Cecil Bullard: more. So we have the cause and the correction. I need a confirmation of the correction in my write-up. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Test drove the car 23 miles, verified that it's running properly, the temperatures are at X degrees. The, the gauges are fine. The light's not on. Yeah. Yada, yada, yada. Because when that customer leaves, if they have another problem, they come back, I want it well-defined what we did, and I wanna know, is that my problem, or is that not my problem? Yeah. Because cars break, thank God, right? They break- Yeah ... and otherwise I wouldn't have a job. I wouldn't have a place to be. Yeah. So I think you're reading- Sure ... the comments. There's a pretty long one that came in. Lucas Underwood: I like that because that is my belief as well, and I know it's yours as well, is I feel like- Yeah Personally feel like flat rate for technicians and commission for advisors are the worst things that can be implemented. And I understand there's gives and takes of that, right? I- Yeah ... I know. But a lot of these guys, and so I posted this in some groups that have a lot of dealer technicians in it- I'm gonna tell you something, Cecil. The only answer I have at this point is leave the dealer, right? Yeah. That's the only answer I have for you. Because a- as I'm talking to these dealer guys, it's not fair. Okay? Cecil Bullard: No. Lucas Underwood: The way they're treated is not fair, there's no doubt about it. Cecil Bullard: I'm sure there's a dealership or two out there- Yeah that do a really good job and treat their people very fairly. There's not enough. And there just aren't enough. Lucas Underwood: Yeah ... Cecil Bullard: every time I teach a service advisor class or a management class, I'll have somebody come up to me and they'll say, "Yeah, Cecil, I know that all sounds good, but my owner won't let me do X, Y, and Z." Yeah. "My owner won't. My owner won't won't follow the rules," et cetera. And I have a comment. Your owner sent you to me. I can't badmouth your owner. On the other hand, you have to decide what you're willing to work with and what you're not willing to work with. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And so if you're... what's the minimum level of, Acceptable ... of incompetence I'm willing- Yeah ... acceptable level of incompetence I'm willing to put up with? And if you are good at what you do, if you're a good service advisor, if you're a good tech, oh, my God- Get a job ... the sky's the limit right now, right? You can go to... I could send you to th- three different recruiting companies that would get you a fantastic job with great pay tomorrow, right? Yeah. And, Pay how Lucas Underwood: you wanna get paid. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: In the environment- Cecil Bullard: Et cetera ... you Lucas Underwood: wanna be in. Cecil Bullard: And I would say, you know- The problem with flat rate and the problem with hourly there's problems on both sides of that. There is no pay plan that is perfect except a blended pay plan that allows for as they produce, as they do what they, you want them to, they can make more money. But the base- Yeah ... has got to be a substantial base. We know that from Maslow. If we're not able to- Yeah ... take care of our people and have them feel comfortable working for us, like they're gonna be able to pay the bills and once, maybe once a week get a steak or something then we're not taking care of our people properly. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And we're not charging what we need to charge to do that. Whatever that is, it has to be fixed, right? Lucas Underwood: Exactly. Cecil Bullard: You're- or we're gonna, or we're gonna not attract and keep good people in our industry. Lucas Underwood: Yeah. And, here's what I keep hearing is that, "Oh we've got these warranty times," and, "Hey, I don't get paid for going out. 'Hey, can you go out and check the tire pressure in this? Can you go out and read the codes in this? Can you go do this and go do that?' And it's not on the ticket anywhere, and I'm not... and like I'm compensated by flat rate, so you're basically stealing my time." And Cecil Bullard: that's not right. I would agree 100%. That's why you need- Yeah ... a good base, because if I ask you to, if you need to go help one of your fellow workers, I want you to be able to do that and not feel like you're getting punished, right? Yeah. Lucas Underwood: Yes. Cecil Bullard: And, a- and so pay plans is a whole nother it's another meeting, right? Lucas Underwood: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: It's another podcast. Lucas Underwood: It's a... I think that we all believe that we have to change this industry. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. Lucas Underwood: We have to make this industry different than what it's been. Your whole belief system is I have to make a change because I want this to be different when I leave it because of the efforts that I made, right? And I think we all feel that way. We want this industry to be better. And here's the thing that frustrates me the most, is that we've got to pull these people along with us. Yeah. So many of them are jaded. So many of them are aggravated. So many of them are frustrated. And so I'm saying, "Hey, we've got to work together and share a message that resonates with everybody, and we've got to move the industry." Because when David and I started the podcast, one of the discussions was is like, we weren't... "How are you guys gonna make a difference? You're not gonna reach that many people." And we said but if we reach one person and we made their life better and they got a little bit better, and maybe they could impact somebody else." If somebody doesn't take action, nothing ever changes. And I think that's where our industry has been stuck for so many years. And so I commend you for what you're doing with everything you're doing right now to genuinely make the change, not just talk about making the change, but genuinely make the change. Cecil Bullard: I got a limited time. I don't know what

209 - The Real Story of Growing an Independent Auto Repair Shop with Andy Severein

209 - The Real Story of Growing an Independent Auto Repair Shop with Andy Severein June 24th, 2026 - 01:00:41 Show Summary: Andy Severein shares how Andrew's Auto grew from a single shop into a thriving multi shop operation through coaching leadership and a commitment to continuous improvement. Jennifer Hulbert explains how understanding financials improving repair order value and developing managers helped transform the business. They discuss building a strong culture creating opportunities for employees and preparing the next generation of leadership. Their story shows that long term success comes from intentional growth consistent training and serving both customers and employees well.   Host(s): Jimmy Lea, VP of Business Development [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/about-us]   Guest(s):   Director of Programs & Owner of Service Plus Automotive [http://wearetheinstitute.com]   Owner, Andrew’s Auto [http://andrews-auto.com]   Show Highlights: [00:02:29] – Jennifer shares her journey from shop owner to Institute program director. [00:06:11] – Andy explains why he purchased a struggling repair shop. [00:09:00] – Coaching revealed the business metrics Andy never knew existed. [00:11:54] – Average repair order nearly doubled through better processes and training. [00:16:00] – Profit sharing and community support became the business mission. [00:20:10] – Learning financial statements changed every business decision. [00:27:00] – Teamwide coaching fueled one million dollars in sales growth. [00:34:00] – Intentional leadership strengthened culture and employee development. [00:38:02] – A newly acquired second shop quickly doubled its repair order. [00:48:00] – Andy encourages owners to embrace coaching before opportunities disappear.     In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode. 👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/_3LVDHjy2G4 [https://youtu.be/_3LVDHjy2G4]   Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this!   Links & Resources:  * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com].   Episode Transcript:   The Real Story of Growing an Independent Auto Repair Shop with Andy Severin 06242026 Jimmy Lea: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, or good night, depending on when and where you're joining us from today. It is a gorgeous day outside. I hope you are able to go outside and breathe in some beautiful fresh air. Hey, today is awesome. Today is going to be amazing. We've got a great conversation gonna happen with a phenomenal shop owner, with a phenomenal coach and trainer from the Institute for Automotive Business Excellence. But before we get into that, let's talk about you and where you're at, and what's going on in your life. This is going to be an interactive webinar. Interactive how? In the comments section, in the questions, in the comments, put in there where you're joining us from today. Love to give you a shout-out here as we are on the live webinar. We're streaming through many different, multiple streams. Multiple live streams are going out on Facebook, and on YouTube, and on StreamYard. So we've got all these avenues that we're reaching out to the industry to, to, for us to connect, for us to come together. So drop in the comments where you're joining us from, city, state, and your shop name. Love to give you a shout-out so we can recognize everybody who is here for this live event. And it seems that everybody is shy today. Which is awesome. That's great. You know where the comment button is. When you find it, put in there your information, and we'd love to give you a shout-out here as we're on our live event. Streaming on Facebook, and on LinkedIn, and on YouTube, and on StreamYard. Oh my gosh, this is so awesome. This is so awesome. All right, for our conversation today Jennifer Holbert is here from the Institute for Automotive Business Excellence. She is a shop owner. She is a a coach, an industry coach, an industry facilitator with the GEAR Performance Group, and most recently moved into the position of director of programs with the Institute for Automotive Business Excellence. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for being here. Good morning, good afternoon. Jennifer Hulbert: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Jimmy Lea: Yes. We're gonna have an awesome conversation. I'm in the good morning part, and you're in the good afternoon part. Jennifer Hulbert: I am. Jimmy Lea: 'Cause you're in New York, right? Jennifer Hulbert: I am. Northern New York. Jimmy Lea: Northern New York, awesome. How long have you been in the industry, Jennifer? Jennifer Hulbert: Ooh 25 years? Yeah, 25 years. Jimmy Lea: So you started sweeping floors when you were, like, five, six years old then? Jennifer Hulbert: Yeah, you could say that. I started filing probably when I was in my teens, but officially joined the business in 2001 when we moved to our new building and started as service advising, accounting, marketing, and then now do it all. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. No, a- and you've had a long journey with the institute as well, joining as part of the GEAR Performance groups, and then moved into being an industry coach. Jennifer Hulbert: I did. Jimmy Lea: What did that... What's that short story look like for you? Jennifer Hulbert: Yeah. I was a group member in group two for about 19 years prior to the opportunity to become a facilitator with the institute. That was four years ago, and just was recently asked and accepted the director of programs position, so I'll be overseeing all of our coaching programs with our owners coaches, our service advisors, and our managers. So just in the infancy of that position right now, and we've got lots of good work to do and lots of exciting things to bring to the industry that I'm super excited to be part of. So yeah, it's been a journey. I, and I know all the things, all the positions, so as, first time coming to a meeting to being an integral part of a group process and looking at elevating our own internal groups and the members that we were talking to, including myself. So yeah, it's been quite the journey. Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love it. I love it. And here comes a shout-out from Downshift with Tanika. "That's my coach, Jennifer." She is. Thank you, T- Jennifer Hulbert: But love Tanika ... Jimmy Lea: Tanika's with Brown's Automotive out of- Yeah ... North Carolina. Yeah. Chapel Hill. David Boy's also saying, "Hey. Yay, Jennifer." And David, are you joining from Minnesota today? Minneapolis? Are you joining from Florida today? Where is home? Where are your feet planted today? Jennifer Hulbert: He's all over the place. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. No, that's awesome. That's awesome. Th- thank you for being a coach. Thank you for being in the industry. You are an inspiration f- to many. You have influenced many, and one of those people you have influenced is Andy Severin with Andrew's Auto. Andy, how the heck are you, brother? Andy Severein: Doing wonderful, Jimmy. Good to be here. Jimmy Lea: Good. Bro, you gotta sit up or something. You look... I got out... We Andy Severein: all these people back. Jimmy Lea: There we Jennifer Hulbert: go Jimmy Lea: I'm so excited to talk to you about this conversation a- as we talk about you and your shop and your business. How long have you been in the business, Andy? What does that look like for you? Andy Severein: I started in this business when I was in high school. I swept floors in a shop when I was 14, 15 years old, and got a job working there right out of... I went to Vo-Tech when I was a senior in high school and and their work work experience program puts you out in a shop halfway through senior year. So I started working there yeah, when I was 17, 18 years old, and was in that shop for, probably till I was about 25, I believe. Wow. Left the industry for a little bit, did some different things with trucks, and was learned a lot about life skills and running a business by owning big trucks. That teaches you a lot quickly. And when I got out of that, I got into the used car side of the business in inventory management, which I had my fingers in the repair side of our inventory. I was... I'd say I was a part of this industry at that part p- that point, that time, that 10 years of my life, but in a little different aspect. Yeah, most of my life I've had my hands getting dirty somewhere. Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love it. I love it. Isn't it funny we all start by sweeping floors? Yep. We got a shout-out coming in from David Boyd. Y- you need... You're sitting low for a tall guy. Reach up there, grab your camera, p- point it down just a little bit 'cause it looks like you're sitting on the floor. Andy Severein: It's down as far as it can go. I'm sorry. Jimmy Lea: Oh, really? That's funny. All right, Da- David, you just gotta get over it, man. Don't worry about it. Hey, so you got out, you went into trucking, you came back into into a shop. Did you go directly into owning another shop, or did you get back into turning a wrench first? Andy Severein: I went into the dealership world and- Yeah ... and purchasing and inventory management. The shop that we 10 years ago we started Andrew's Auto. There was a shop that had been in business for 50 years. It's I could see it from my house. We were that close, and it was a mess. Oh, I bet. I knew the owner. I had a relationship with the owner for years, and I planted that seed at one point. If you're, when you're interested in, in, in getting out that I'd be interested in talking. And I at that point, I don't know if my interest more was in cleaning the property up because I could see it from my house and it's that bad- ... or actually being in the auto repair business. But really my experience, the relationships I had had people coming to me constantly with advice, and had people- Yeah coming to me with looking at... They were looking for advice on their cars, and they were sharing experiences with me, experiences that they had at shops. A lot of them bad experiences. So it really it really it really Made me realize that there was a need in our area for a good, honest repair shop. Yeah. So that was my drive behind it, not having any idea what I was getting into at that point. I just knew how to work on cars. That w- that was really it. But thankfully through my life I've worked for some really good people, and looking back through, all the way back to when I was sweeping floors, what I learned from each one of those employers and even my years in, in being in trucking, what I've learned from each thing really prepared me for where I am today. Jimmy Lea: Oh, Jennifer Hulbert: yeah. For Jimmy Lea: sure. Jennifer Hulbert: In a previous conversation, Andy, you said you- you've always put yourself in front of the right people. Andy Severein: Yeah. Jennifer Hulbert: And I think right from an early age, that was just inherent in your personality to put you- ... in the right place at the right time, in front of the right person, to give you some of these opportunities. Andy Severein: Yep. Yep. Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love that you're learning along the way. At what point as the business grew, at what point did you realize that your role had to change from being involved in everything to truly being leading the business? Andy Severein: Definitely the institute had a, big part in that. I- Yeah. Jimmy Lea: Jennifer, why are you laughing? Jennifer Hulbert: Because we've had this conversation multiple times. Andy Severein: Yes, we have. Yes, we have. So we, I worked from, it was right in December of 2016 is when we started and things went well. We were busy from day one. We grew, we added people constantly. We did our first major addition renovation to our building in the end of 2019. The the, things were going very well, but there was just so many things I didn't know. And when I I was at the Napa Expo in 2022 in Vegas and and was in one of Cecil's classes, and it just it made me realize there was just a lot that I didn't know, and things I needed to know. And w- what he said really resonated with where we were at that point in time. I had no idea. Like I said, I knew how to fix cars. I didn't know what an average repair order was. We were using Mitchell at that point, and I really paid no attention to the reports. I didn't even know what that stuff was, right? We were just using Mitchell so we had a platform to give people invoices. So it taught me right away some of the, key indicators to, to look at, and I thought, "Whoa. We have a long way to go here." Jimmy Lea: Wow, and by that time you had already been six years in the business. Andy Severein: Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy Lea: And- Yep wow, there comes an eye-opening experience. Interesting. That's awesome. What, what- So from that point, you decided, "Oh my gosh, we've gotta change, we've gotta grow, we've gotta develop." What, at what point did you decide, "Hey, you know what? I need to really look at this coaching and training business. I really need to hire me a coach." What did that look like for you? Andy Severein: What drove that and what's still driving me today, I know I'm getting into the future there, but this business, I started it with my son on day one, and the intention of him taking this business over, I hadn't really put a timeframe on when that would happen, but it I think I realized that I need to make this a well-functioning successful business before I hand it over to him. So that, that was really what, resonated to me at that point. "Hey, we have a long way to go." So that that was, why we made some significant changes there right away and adapting to those changes is hard. I tell people that all the time. Being told, "Hey, your ARO should be this," and you think, "Oh my goodness, how are we ever gonna get from $350 to..." I believe our first goal was $550- ... if I'm not mistaken. And, we were inching- And I- ... inching to 500 and all of a sudden it was like maybe we ought to look at things a little different." Now at 600, I'm thinking, "Oh, my goodness." Jennifer Hulbert: I can remember one of those early conversations of, Jen, everyone's talking about this 850, $900 average repair order but you don't understand, my, my customers are different." Andy Severein: "My Jennifer Hulbert: customers aren't going to accept that because I live in an area of the country where we're completely different." And it wasn't until we started to break it down and Andy, you took a really a hard look at understanding the KPIs. We had a lot of discussions on what they meant, what the formulas were, how they're impacted, and that I think opened your eyes to say, "Okay we can do this with a better and a more thorough DVI, and some sales training for our advisors, and a different marketing strategy and conversations with our customers." So I, I was joking with Jimmy before we started this that's typically the first conversation that we as coaches get is, "Oh, wait a minute, you don't understand, my customers are different." And what we've found is what most people realize is no, they're not. They're, they're- ... Jennifer Hulbert: They will respond to the presentations and the information that you're going to give them. And I have some statistics in front of me. In 2022, your average repair order was $367. End of last year it's 732, and I think this year we're knocking the $800 range. So again- ... with some systems, process changes, ideology changes, training, this is exactly what's possible. Andy Severein: Yep. Jimmy Lea: Absolutely. So I have a coaching question for you, Jennifer. How often- are shops coming to you as a coach or you as a facilitator and singing the exact same song that Andy was singing? Jennifer Hulbert: Often. I would say probably 90% of the time. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. Jennifer Hulbert: And it's because we're fed, there, there's a lot of noise out there. There, there's a ton of noise of what the industry should be. There, there's news articles there's all kinds of news report of what our industry's reputation is, and it's not positive. So we look at this differently. We wanna educate our customers on what's best for you and your vehicle. Nowhere in our sales process that we teach at the institute or that we coach is a hard sales process. We're gonna look at your situation, your vehicle. We're gonna be open and honest about everything that we see, and then work a plan that's gonna work for you. Andy Severein: I Jennifer Hulbert: love that. So when you address it with honesty and true humility, it, it becomes a different conversation than one of a hard press sales, and I'm gonna sell you services that you don't need. It... That, that's not what we do. That's not the integrity of the institute, that's not the integrity of the coaches, and that's not the integrity of the shops that we work with. So a lot of times it's you don't know what you don't know. True. So you don't understand the power of a DVI process. You don't understand the power of an actual structured sales process. And that's exactly what Andy started to realize, and then really took a deep dive in, is, "Okay, I see things differently now, and I can see where we're benefiting our customers from doing this." "So I'm gonna put all the effort into training staff and making sure that we're starting to work towards those different key performance indicators." Jimmy Lea: Yeah. Andy, did you feel called out, just Tanika? She's wondering if this is a setup. She feels like she's being called out right now. Did you feel like you were being called out, Andy? Andy Severein: No. I would say not. No? No Jimmy Lea: When you were first starting, you didn't feel like you were being called out, you didn't feel like you were being spotlighted. And you know what? Now let me tell c- build up a little bit more, clarify a little bit more. I enjoy the process that we have at the institute where we're here to meet you where you are as a business and as a shop owner- Yeah and we're going to start from there. What does it take to run your business? What kind of business do you want to have? 100%. Now- Okay. If that's- Yeah, I do ... the kind of business you wanna have, these are the steps we need to take to get to that business that you wanna run. As opposed to a rubber stamp that says, "Follow this process, procedure, and you'll be successful." Okay you don't understand my clients or my customers Jennifer's laughing 'cause yeah we're gonna meet you where you are. What, how do you wanna run your business? What do you, what does success look like for you? 'Cause Andy, your definition of success might be different than Jennifer's, might be different than mine Andy Severein: Sorry, I dropped out with just a moment there. It was just about a five-second window where I had s- Jimmy Lea: For just the most important Andy Severein: point ... in the meat of that, I lost you. Jennifer Hulbert: He- he was saying what success is to you is not the success to someone else. And I'll use something that's very important to you, and that is compensating your staff very well with your profit sharing plan- and your community involvement and sponsorships. So Andy and I have had the conversation of the effects of that on his, to overall net profit- ... but that's his why. He wants to give the best financial outcome to all of his staff based on their efforts towards their success with a profit sharing plan. And then be a very good leader financially in the community to, to support those organizations that are supporting him. And that's much different than my why, and that's gonna be much different than Tanika's why as well. So we've looked at what's important to you in creating that profitability level so you can carry out that why. Andy Severein: Yeah. Absolutely. That why is something that we've figured out over time. We didn't realize going into it what our true why was. I just wanted to build a race car. I thought, "Hey, I have a shop. I can deduct all these parts and, it'll be great." And it took a few years of doing this until we figured out what our true why is, why we're here, and it's awesome. I love that. I'll back up just a minute, though, Jimmy, to your question, if I felt called out, and maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but I'd probably share with the people that are listening that are thinking about coaching no. I went in there new to everything that was happening, and I never felt called out, put on the spot "Look at this guy." The group has been awesome from the first time I was there with helping me to feel comfortable and share their, their struggles and successes. I never felt called out in a way that I was uncomfortable. And I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but hindsight, that's what I was thinking. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. No. That's exactly it. You weren't called out in an embarrassment point of view, but you were- No ... enlightened into, "Oh, wow, these are some things that I can do. These are the steps I can take and need to take so I can run the business the way I want to." I love that. That's awesome. Now, question for you here about pricing and parts and parts GP and labor rates. This can be very emotional for shop owners. This is an emotional subject. What helped you move from being emotional about these topics and these subjects to becoming more logical in those areas? Jennifer Hulbert: Besides peer pressure. Jimmy Lea: Peer pressure is positive. It can be. Andy Severein: Definitely that emotional attachment that, that, as shop owners you have that. When you're working in the shop, you're, you're turning the wrenches you're hands-on with the vehicles, you're talking to the people at the customer. You're talking to the customers at the counter, and there's people you've known forever, and you know their, their families and their financial situations. There's a huge emotional attachment to that, and it's not bad. Yeah. But it definitely it, it definitely is a hindrance to the growth and success of a business, and I... It took me a while to, to learn and understand that. And it's still why I stay away from the the counter, and the, the service advisor role is so important, and I realize that. I'm so blessed to have the people we have now that are really good at what they do, and they get it. They understand. They're coaching with the APT programs, and I keep putting plugs in for you, but it's been very powerful for us. But overall the growth of the business is dependent on that, so we... I've learned to just stay away Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love it. Andy Severein: I, of course. Jimmy Lea: You know your strengths and your weaknesses. Go ahead, Jennifer. Andy Severein: Yeah. Jennifer Hulbert: I think you also had an understanding of the overall effect o- of what a labor rate increase will do. So that impacts labor gross profit, which impacts your total GP, which impacts your overall net profit. So- ... when we first started to talk about what is your why, and that you wanted it to input this profit sharing and your community involvement we need- those net profit dollars to be able to do that. And we get those through parts and labor GP. So no, it's not just a 10 or a 15% or 10 or $15 labor rate increase, it's going to overall impact that labor GP, which will help the net profit, which is gonna allow you to do what you want to do. Andy Severein: Absolutely. Yeah, that's so true. Absolutely. Yeah, being in the upstairs your knowledge teaching me initially how to read my P&L. I'd never looked at a P&L. When I started to enroll, I didn't even know how much money we had in the bank. I didn't care. Yeah. Bills were being paid, it was great. But now the composite reporting, which was really hard for me, and you remember that, it was super hard for me in the beginning. And now I'm I'm not gonna say I enjoy doing it, but I see the I see the... I do enjoy doing it. I enjoy the results of it. But the the understanding of how we're getting to net profit and why that net profit is so expensive is so important, Yeah that- It's critical ... that's not being downstairs, but w- my offices are upstairs staying up there and keeping an eye on that is is, it's been my the key to, to, to the growth here. Absolutely. Yeah. Jimmy Lea: And let's break this down for those that are watching that don't understand what a P&L is. They hear the word all the time. They hear P&L. This is your profit and loss, pro- P&L, profit and loss. Most shop owners will look at their P&L, they really don't understand it. They're looking for that last number. Is it red or is it black? If it's black we know we're good, we know we're making money. If it's red We're losing money, and that's what the understanding of most shop owners are. At the institute, we also have a financial intensive that helps you as a shop owner to understand how to read the entire P&L, how to get it set up properly with your accountant so that you are getting the right and correct information when you need it most. And a P&L should not take months and months for your accountant to put together and g- and- No ... deliver to you. W- what's the average? How long should it take, Jennifer? Jennifer Hulbert: To, for, to start to make changes? Jimmy Lea: Oh, no. J- In order- Hey, Mr. Accountant or Mrs. Accountant, I would like my P&L. Jennifer Hulbert: You should get that once a month. M- minimally, I would say, our require- our reporting requirement is by the 20th of the month. So you should be getting that by the 15th or the 18th from, for the previous month from your- ... accountant or your bookkeeper. Jimmy Lea: So if you're only getting a P&L once a year, you may wanna either ask for more and get a better understanding, or m- perhaps you need a different- accountant. So if you need a different accountant, we know a guy. Come talk to us. We know a guy. Jennifer Hulbert: We do. Yeah. We do. A- Yeah ... and it, knowing where you're at from a profitability standpoint tells a tenth of the story. So where do we need to put our focus? Yeah. Is it in gross profits for parts? Is it in gross profit for labor? Is it in expense control? Because, so many times- ... we have a lot of members who have really good gross profit percentages, but they're not controlling their expenses and they eat away, their profitability that way. Yeah. We break down our expenses into, what, 30 categories probably, 35 categories individually, and have benchmarks for individual expenses. So th- that's what our owner coaching and our group process does, is we- ... we focus on not only systems and processes within your shop, but the understanding of your financials, so you know- ... which specific areas to target and to make some improvements on. Andy Severein: Yeah. Jennifer Hulbert: And Andy, that's where I credit you because th- we had some, many meetings where he's "Jen, make me understand this. I really need to understand how all this works together," and we probably worked for six months- ... u- until you had that understanding and now you do, and, your profitability is, has increased ex- ... quite a Andy Severein: bit. Jimmy Lea: That's awesome. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of shop owners that are out there that are just like you, Andy, that are in that same position that says, "I don't know what I don't know, and this is definitely one area that I need to know more. Help me understand it." And you dig into it, and you dig into it, and you dig into it and the more you learn, the better you are. Our last financial intensive, I think we had 40 plus people here at, in Ogden at the financial intensive. So next April, if you're wanting to understand your income statement and your profit and loss and your balance sheet, come here to the institute. We've got a phenomenal program for you. You definitely want it. Whoa, that was cool. Now, oh, Raleigh. Props, dude. That was your dr- that was mic drop. Scan the QR code. Get in on our next financial intensive. Yes, that is going to be awesome. We'd love to have you here, y- and you will learn tremendous amount. I want to go back to another acronym you dropped out on, on everybody here. You mentioned the APG. N- our industry is full of acronyms. APG stands for the Advisor Performance Group, and that's with the institute. So Andy, you have your advisors in the program right now? Andy Severein: We do. Jimmy Lea: What have you seen with your advisors? What's the change that they've gone through? Andy Severein: Probably the biggest thing I've ... The biggest thing I appreciate that I that I'm getting directly is, their understanding of the numbers that they're achieving and ... But also, the way the program's put together, allowing them to see the big picture of what the business looks like, what it should look like, what it could look like, whatever your circumstance is. But doing that from a different perspective than myself talking to them, I think allows them to grow. And it's one thing for me, for an owner, for somebody to say something to somebody, but when they're hearing from an actual coach, it's like, "Hey, that guy's not just full of hot air. He knows what he's talking about." Now that's been powerful, but aligning all of our people, Yeah ... through those different programs has been really powerful for us. And that growth that we've really seen in the last, what, year or so I can directly attribute to, and I'll drop another acronym, the MPG program, as well as the APG program. Jimmy Lea: So what's the MPG? Andy Severein: The Manager Performance Group. Yep. We have two managers here now, Nate and Brian. My son, Nate, one of them. They just got back from Utah. We've been so busy, we haven't ... We've done some quick debriefs, but we haven't had time to really sit down and put everything together that that I brought back from the group five meeting last week, or the week before last, and then they came back from Utah with their normal plane delays. ... Oh, no. Jennifer Hulbert: Dang. Andy Severein: But they made it. Jennifer Hulbert: And let's talk about what that growth looks like. So in 2023, you ended the year at 2.1 million. 2025, you ended a million dollars up at 3.1. And you- you've entered the managers and the advisors into the program along with working in the owners of- Yep your performance group program. But like you said, you've aligned your entire staff in the direction that you want to take it- ... with training and opportunities and information of to align to that direction. So just you talking to your staff and coming back from one of the GPG meetings, Gear Performance Group meetings- A- and it's like them trying to absorb what your understanding of the training is- Versus now I'm getting it from a coach who is aligned with that ideology, and now we're gonna move everyone in the same direction. So I think for you, Andy, that's been the biggest change. Now, has it cost you some money? Yes. Coaching is not free. Sometimes, people say, "I want cheap coaching." You get what you pay for. That's what you get. And you're gonna get the results that you pay for. A 30%, 32% increase in two years in sales is the... you could attribute that directly to the coaching. And again I know this sounds like a sales presentation for the institute. It, it's not meant to be that way. I just know that Andy and I have had these discussions over the past three years of how, what can I do to improve? And because- ... you have dedicated the time and the energy to some coaching programs, you've got some very good results. Now, you've set some of that standard. I expect X out of you, service advisor, from a gross profit and an average repair order- ... and an effective labor rate standpoint 'cause you've held those standards high- ... and communicated those expectations, which is also very important for results. But y- you've done a very good job at communicating what the expectation is, and then your team has followed up with those results. Andy Severein: Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy Lea: I love it. Y- there's, the saying is you were talking about the expense of training. Training is so expensive. What what if I train my guys and they leave? What if you don't train them and they stay? Andy Severein: Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy Lea: Andy, have you ever had a situation where you've trained someone and they left? Andy Severein: I have not. We have very little turnover So that's Jimmy Lea: the benefit of training today, is your people will stay. Andy Severein: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No, we have very little turnover of people. In fact, I think there was only one advisor I had that was, he was here for a short period of time and he had come from managing an entire operation and had another opportunity to go back to what he had been doing. So I don't fault him at all. So he's the only person that I had in training and I hope that the things that he learned, he can take into his future. So- Jimmy Lea: Yeah ... Andy Severein: great guy. Yeah. He's a great guy. Oh, Jimmy Lea: I Jennifer Hulbert: totally agree. And let's talk about why your staff stays. What makes you different from some other shops that have some high turnover? And, and- Yeah ... we've talked about this. Andy Severein: Yeah. Jimmy Lea: Well- What are you Andy Severein: doing, Andy? Jimmy Lea: Is it pizza on Friday? Andy Severein: Wednesdays. Wednesdays. And we try not to do pizza too much. That really gets old, right? We have a big old grill here. I like to make food and do different things. But we really try to take care of our people in many different ways, not just, in their, problems that are going on in their life. We try to speak into their lives as, as much as we can and just be there for them. And, they're our family. We s- we spend more time with the people that work for us than anybody else. I'm careful who I allow into that family. And I feel we've done very well. In fact, we had somebody start here just recently, and his comments are just like every person I've heard in the past. Everybody here just gets along. Everybody helps each other. It's it's, it makes me... i'm really happy of that, and I'm really happy about that, because that's what I want. I wanna treat our guys really well. I want them to be excited about what they do, try to keep them motivated and and try to... My goal has always been to try to have a place that the word on the street is, "Hey, you wanna work for this guy, because they'll really take care of you in every way, not just pay." So it's extending a lot of grace regularly, that's that's part of it. Managing that grace can be tough. But but we... it's a blessing overall. It really is. We have a great staff of people here. Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love it. I love it. And what those people are talking about is the company culture, the culture that you have created in your company. They're j- it's, they're just so impressed by it, that this is a great company culture. So I... That doesn't happen by accident What are you doing today as a leader that is different than what you were doing three years ago, four years ago, five years ago? What are you doing different Andy Severein: I can't- honestly don't know if I'm really doing anything different. I hope I'm not, actually. I've always tried to connect with everybody regularly and just, listen to their needs and keep an open atmosphere that they can come to us with whatever's going on, if it's a problem at home or just, bumped into another car in the parking lot, don't be afraid to come to us with anything. And I... so to answer that, yeah, I don't feel like I'm doing anything really differently. I have the help of my wife now. She's a huge part of it. She was here in the beginning for the first five years, and she was working the front desk and it wasn't quite five years. It might've been three or four years and she just couldn't do it anymore. It was way over her head. She's a people person. And she had an opportunity to go work in a restaurant for some friends, which she took, and that opened the door for my, my, my front desk guy, Jimmy, to come in here. Jimmy's just an awesome person. He's just a light. He's always smiling. He's a lot like you, Jimmy. He- Jimmy Lea: It goes with the name. That's, Andy Severein: that's- You're both Jimmy. But yeah, Lori came back here in the beginning of '24, I believe. Nice. And she's been here a little over two years now. I convinced her that her skills, while she was much appreciated at the restaurant, the effort that she was putting in there would be would be very beneficial to us and our staff as we grow here. So she is a huge part of it. Plays Jimmy Lea: defense. Yeah. Jennifer, what are you seeing that Andy does different today? And by the way, Andy, you're constantly improving, so to say you're not doing anything different, it's not exactly true, because that constant improvement- ... is changing and you are becoming better. Andy Severein: True. Jimmy Lea: That's true. So as Coach, what are you seeing different that Andy does today that he didn't do when you first met? Jennifer Hulbert: I would agree with him. I think, hi- his heart i- is in the right place in wanting to do- Totally agree ... what's best for his staff. So that's just who, Andy, you are. I think today you're a little more intentional with that I- in some of the conversations and, interactions with the staff from discussions that we've had. I'll give you a recent example that they've just acquired their second shop months ago. Andy Severein: A couple weeks, three, four weeks ago. Yeah, beginning of May we started. Yep. Jennifer Hulbert: And the advisor there, they're looking to, w- we're gonna look to bring her to the service advisor intensive that's happening right now. She's never- Yeah ... flown before, so Lori says I'll go with you." I will join you on the plane. I will go to Utah with you. I will, get you all set up, make sure that you're completely just at peace with this. But that's who Andy and Lori are. So to say- Love it ... that they've done a lot different I would agree with you, Andy. I don't think you have. I just think you're a little more intentional- Yeah ... w- with it today than you may were three or four years ago. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. Andy Severein: Yeah. More clarity. Jimmy Lea: See, Andy Severein: and Jimmy Lea: That's to the core of who you are. That's to your heart. Your heart has always been in that right place. And that constant improvement are things that you're doing, the things that happen, you don't, probably don't see that you're doing it. But a coach, someone on the outside looking in would say, "You know what, Andy? You are becoming much more intentional. You are having these great conversations. Your heart has always been there," and it's something that you don't see because it's second nature to you, Andy. But a coach is gonna go, "Hey, you know what? This is unique. This is s- this is special. This is awesome that you do this." That's pretty cool. Andy Severein: Yeah. Jimmy Lea: That's pretty good. So what is the future? You just added a second shop. Does that mean that there's a third one, or is it too soon to ask? Andy Severein: I've planted the seeds for the third one. I did that a while ago. That might have been the second one, but this one just kinda flew in there quickly. But it's in a neighboring shop. I can see it. It's just one, two- Two buildings over? ... two buildings away. So they were our closest- Wow ... competition. Jimmy Lea: Wow. Andy Severein: Interesting. So we had the opportunity to buy that. The owner was was wanting to retire, and hap- wanted to make it happen quickly, so he we were able to work a deal out there. I acquired all of his employees and and, it's been a, it's been really good so far. We- I'm really excited about where that is and I've said this to Jennifer to take a business that has not been run well for years and apply, what we've learned we- we've learned and applied it here slowly to try to apply it to a business like that is, it's a pretty exciting challenge. And, seeing that ARO, it was 200-some dollars when we started it and I think we're substantially over that. We haven't advertised it yet. The building needs a lot of work, and we- we're looking forward to doing that work over the coming weeks and months. So we're really excited of what the possibilities are there. We really just needed some overflow, honestly. We're almost at capacity here where we are, and having a little bit of of option for more base space to send some work over there, customers we can't help in our time, in their timeframe with our busy schedule to be able to capture them is high on my priority list of what to do, love it. Always kinda looking for ways to, looking ahead to, what is our next, next, way to grow. To have... If there's more shops I don't know if that's- If that happens, fine. I'm, I've no problem with that. I'm not focused on that. I wanna... I still see a tremendous amount of improvement we could do where we are, and we'll try to, we'll try to continue to focus on that. But our pattern's been about every three years we do, what's the next step? 2023 we did a pretty large addition to be able to handle heavier pickup trucks and the dually trucks, construction pickup trucks. We were doing a lot of that stuff, so we put an addition on there. So here we are three years later, buying another shop. That's our that's- this is the next step and, what's the next in three more years? That's been our pattern. We've got some ideas, Jimmy Lea: Oh, I love it. It- What's gonna come in 2029? That's, you Andy Severein: got to be sweating. Jimmy Lea: Exactly. Andy Severein: Exactly. Oh, that's awesome. Got some pre- got some pretty cool ideas. We'll keep focused keep focused on what could happen there and work towards that goal. Jimmy Lea: Yeah, for sure. I- is it too soon, or can I ask this? You only bought this other shop at the beginning of May, so we're looking at six, seven weeks, eight weeks now that you've- owned the s- the second shop. $200 average repair order. Where are you now? In a very short time period, has it increased significantly, or are you still hovering in that 2 to $300 range? Andy Severein: No it's climbed. I think we're in the $400 range right now. I'm sorry, I haven't looked at that lately. I just realized- Yeah ... as you're asking me that question. So we've about- Yeah ... doubled that. Jimmy Lea: Doubled it in less than six weeks. Andy Severein: Yeah. Jimmy Lea: Implementing proper process, procedures. You intro- did you introduce a DVI program to them? Andy Severein: We did. Yep, introduced that. So that's been good. That's a... W- we're trying to... We have-- There's so many customers there that were the customers that that you don't want, that, we're trying to get rid of 'em. They, you tell 'em what their car needs, they take it home and fix it, and then bring it back and get an inspection sticker. We have state inspection here in Pennsylvania, an annual inspection, so that's a huge part of what we do and so yeah, that's been... working those customers out of our system is the goal here. Make way for good customers. And we've really seen a, an upturn just in the last few weeks of busyness. So it's it's exciting. Jimmy Lea: Oh, that is exciting. That's awesome. Congratulations. So a- as we, we look in towards the future here what leadership skills are you working on today To help you strengthen yourself, strengthen the business as you continue to grow, what are you working on yourself or the business in your leadership realm? Andy Severein: Oh, goodness. I'd love to say that I read a book a week or even a book a month, but that doesn't happen. I, and I could I, probably said it to Jennifer and I'll say it again. What we're doing in the GPG groups right now is so good. What we just did in the group five meeting in Indiana the other week our two main presentations are things that are so relevant to me right now, and that's, defining where in the business, where we need to be and what those roles are, and focusing on those things. That's, it, we're... i, it's funny I still struggle with basic things sometimes it feels even what my roles need to be, but that clarity is huge to me, and we're really, as a, we as our mana- myself and the managers really, working on that stuff. But, I'm, I personally, a- and I'll radiate where I started in, in this business, my goal almost from the start was to work my way out of this and create an opportunity for my son to move into which will probably at this point looks like it'll be my son and Brian together, the two managers. And presenting opportunities for them is exciting to me. They're both going to the to Michael Smith to the leadership- Leadership intensive ... in Washington, DC. Oh, yeah. There's another plug. You'll see the thing come across the bottom of the screen right now. Yeah. But Jimmy Lea: it's not- Leadership intensive in July in Washington, DC. Is that the one? That, oh! There it is. Look at that. There Andy Severein: it is. Oh, Mike Johnson. Jimmy Lea: There it is. Yeah, Raleigh, way to go, brother. He gave me a thumbs up. Andy Severein: But I did that course two years ago, I think it was in Ogden, and I really feel like I could do it again 'cause I'm at a I'm... I've learned so much in two years, but I'm really happy to be able to give those guys the opportunity to do that, to let them grow. Because I look at this now as "Hey this is gonna be for you to run." Yeah. And I want them to outperform anything I've ever done. I just wanna set the stage for them to be able to hit the ground running. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. And attending another leadership intensive, you're gonna learn even more because you've had two- Andy Severein: Yeah Jimmy Lea: years of runway under your belt that you have learned and developed and grown. Now when you attend it again, you have such a solid foundation. Now you're ready to build that building. You're ready to build upon what you've already learnt, implemented, discovered, rewrote as your truth tapes. You know what those next steps are gonna be, and y- you'll go to leadership intensive. You, your brain will still melt, we'll still have to pour it back in your head because of the learning that will happen And now the development and growth you'll have for the next year as well will be just tremendous. So Andy- ... Jimmy Lea: Get to the DC, get to the leadership intensive. You need to be there Andy Severein: I'll consider that. Jimmy Lea: That's a good idea. Yeah, take that into consideration. Anybody that's watching this as well, and you see it go back to that QR code, get into that Leadership Intensive. It really will change... thank you. It really will change the way you think about yourself, about your business, about your life- Yeah about why you think the way you think, and then you can help to discover why other people think the way that they think. Andy Severein: Absolutely. Jimmy Lea: Oh, so powerful. So powerful. Jennifer Hulbert: And one, one of the things that I really wanna point out to the listeners is, typically when we have a new client coming into our individual coaching program is they see people like Andy, and they're intimidated. But hearing Andy's story, that he started off, fixing cars in a very small shop himself, building it to now a multi-shop owner, not having to be an integral part of the day-to-day of the business because he has put people in the right seats, grown the business to a level that you can have a mid-tier manager- it's totally doable. Now, does it require blood, sweat, and tears? Absolutely. I own a shop. I was a service advisor for two years full time. You don't get to this point without going through some of those steps, but it is doable. A- and- Yeah ... sitting saying I only have 500 or $600,000 in sales this year," that, that was Andy at one Andy Severein: point. Jennifer Hulbert: And, now we're in a completely different scenario because of the changes and the improvements and the attention you've put to these improvements and your leadership style. So I, I get a lot of new members and I was actually at a group two member, or group two meeting a couple weeks ago, and then had a meeting with a member, and, she said, "Jen, you don't understand what we come back to because you have two managers in your shop." And I said, "Hold on a minute. I was you 15 years ago." So i- it does take time, and it does take attention but it is totally doable, and we can take you from opening your own shop, I have two members who had, have started to work with us prior to even purchasing their shop, to now owning their shop, to becoming a multi-shop owner. So the, all of those steps and processes we have the ability and the knowledge and the training and coaching to fill all of those steps, but it is a process. Yeah. You're not gonna go, from Andy opening your shop to $3.1 million being pretty much a hands-off owner in two years. It- ... had taken 10 or 14 to do Jimmy Lea: that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You... If you keep doing what you've always done, you're gonna keep getting what you've always got. You- Yep ... you've gotta do something to change. And so Jennifer, to this specific scenario, a shop owner that you would have worked with that they went from a bucket and a wrench and a computer to multi shop owner what did their timeline look like? So maybe others who are listening can go, "Oh you know what? In six years, I'm gonna be six years older. I'm either gonna be still with a bucket and a wrench, or I can invest in myself and improve." What's that look like? So Jennifer Hulbert: the timeframe differs be- because of this. So it's your ideology, it's your mentality, it's where do you want to go and how are you going to take the steps to get there? We can give you the information. Again, one of the reasons I've suggested Andy being on this podcast is because he's done a lot with the information to get to where he is today. So if you enact it if you take it home and you actually implement some of the things that we talk about, you're gonna move much faster than someone who is, "You don't understand, my customers are different." Jimmy Lea: Yeah. Jennifer Hulbert: Two, two totally different types of shop owners. That's true. So I would say the timeframe is different for everyone, but five, six years to go from small to large, Maybe Yeah ... if I had to put a timeframe on it. Jimmy Lea: And I think you hit on the two elements that must be implemented in every situation. You talked about the attention. You've gotta give it attention. You've gotta give it the attention it needs because it doesn't happen by accident. It needs to be it needs your attention. And the second one is that you have to be intentional- Yes ... about what you're doing. Yes. If you don't know what you're doing, you could wander in the forest and be walking in circles because you don't have that compass. Compasses were created before time, before clocks. Why? Because we needed to know where we were going. So compasses are more important. You need a coach, you need a direction, you need some help to make sure you make- Jennifer Hulbert: And some accountability. That, that's what the premise of our whole GPG program is. Is it's not only the facilitator and the coach holding you accountable, you're being held accountable by a group of your peers. Jimmy Lea: Yes. Jennifer Hulbert: Yeah. Jimmy Lea: Yes. So if you're listening to this and you are the shop that's at that 500,000 or 600,000, let's start that journey together. We can do this. We can do it together and make it happen for you that in four, three, four, five, six years you're having the same conversation with somebody else who's doing a podcast to talk about your success story, and it's gonna be similar to what Andy has. Andy, final question from me and then Jennifer, a question from you for Andy if you want to pipe in here. And in fact, I might have two. My first question is gonna say what advice would you give another shop owner who is thinking that there's gotta be a next level? Andy Severein: There absolutely is, and I can say from experience to figure out what that level or what your goal is, what do you want to achieve and how can you achieve that? It, it-- That's true to anything in life, but it's having the understanding or the understanding of what tools you can use to, to get yourself to that point. Once again, in my case, it was I wanna work my way out of a job, what does that look like? And but certainly doable, with some input, some coach. People, most shop owners that I've found are pretty close-minded, don't wanna be told what to do. You know- ... they're doing it great, don't tell me. And that's why I was at an auction earlier today for a shop that closed down because, they just choose to just do the same thing they always did, and at the end of the day, they got nothing left. No business and just a bunch of tools to sell Jimmy Lea: Wow ... Andy Severein: doesn't have to be that way. Doesn't have Jennifer Hulbert: to be Andy Severein: that way at all. No way. Nope. Jimmy Lea: No. No. Yeah. They're getting pennies on the dollars for those tools and assets. Jennifer. Jennifer Hulbert: I don't think I have a question for you, Andy. I, and you're a pretty humble guy, and I want you to really hear this, so thank you for being an industry leader, and thank you for setting the tone and the example of what success can really look like. And, I hope you're an inspiration to those who are watching and listening to this because you've done exactly my why. My why is to help elevate individual shop owners, and because of your attention and intention to the information that we've been discussing you've climbed to that level. So I want you to really hear that you are an industry leader, and I thank you for being here, and thank you for being a part of the institute. Andy Severein: Yeah. Thank you. That means a lot to me. I certainly don't see myself that way. I I still hear Parker Branch telling me maybe two years ago, "With a few changes, you'll pass me." I'm like, "Yeah, whatever" Jennifer Hulbert: You're getting close Andy Severein: You are Jimmy Lea: getting close, yeah. Andy Severein: Yep. By the end of 2027 when shop number two kicks in, watch out, Parker. Jimmy Lea: You'll join him in that million dollar net club. Yeah. Andy Severein: That's the plan. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. That's the plan. Yep. Yep. All right. One final question coming from Tanika and then a final question from me. Did you get any pushback from your technicians, the technicians you acquired implementing a DVI program, changing their process, procedure, moving their cheese? Andy Severein: Honestly, if you're asking about the shop we just bought- No? ... not a whole lot because they knew that their leadership was terrible. They knew that there was better way to do things. They're a neighboring shop. They saw our parking lot full of cars all the time and their parking lot empty, right? So- Jimmy Lea: Ouch. Yeah ... Andy Severein: that was, for them to be shown How we do it. They understood right away that it worked. They knew that. So it's, it is it's been... Certainly has its challenges, but it hasn't been hard at all. Teaching them the processes has really been the hardest thing, but the understanding, the knowledge of it the knowledge of, the why we're doing it I don't wanna say it's one of the easier parts of taking over that business, but I think it has been. Jimmy Lea: It kinda sounds like it. It sounds like they were definitely primed and ready for you to step in there and take over. Andy Severein: They were all really hungry, yeah. They knew that our leadership was bad. I don't know why they didn't all quit and walk Jimmy Lea: out. Yeah. No, congrats, man. That's awesome. All right, last and final question. Years from now, years down the road, don't know what that number is w- what do you want people to say about your shop, about your team, and about the owner who built it all? Andy Severein: Boy, I, I hope it's, I hope it's what our goal's always been, and that's that we are just awesome people, trustworthy give back to the community, the same things we've always been. I I hope that can be our legacy here. Jimmy Lea: Yeah. For sure. I hope so as well 'cause you are awesome people. Andy Severein: Yeah. Thank you. Yes, Jimmy Lea: they are. Andy Severein: You guys are too, so that means a lot. Jimmy Lea: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for everybody who's listening. If any of this has sounded interesting or information that you wanna pursue even further, get out your cellphone 'cause as soon as we go to credits, there is a QR code. Let's meet. Let's talk. Let's sit down and review your business. What can we do to help you? Our goal, our core, is to help build a better business for you to... which results in a better life for you, which our intention is to build a better industry. So we are all about building a better business, a better life, and a better industry. With that, my name is Jimmy Lea. I'm with the Institute for Automotive Business Excellence, and thank you. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Andy. Really appreciate you guys being here. Andy Severein: Yep. Thank you. Jennifer Hulbert: Thank you.

208 - A Technician Crisis or a Productivity Problem? Ask Me Anything with Cecil and David

208 - A Technician Crisis or a Productivity Problem? Ask Me Anything with Cecil and David June 10, 2026 - 00:55:43 Show Summary: Cecil Bullard and David Roman discuss whether the industry's biggest challenge is finding technicians or improving productivity. They explore why shop owners often keep struggling employees too long and how clear expectations make difficult staffing decisions easier. The conversation highlights the importance of job descriptions accountability and documented processes. They also explain how poor structure lowers shop value and limits growth. The discussion closes with a look at pricing strategies and why shop owners must stop blaming rising costs instead of adjusting their margins.   Host(s): David Roman, Shop Owner Done With Care Auto [http://donewithcareautorepair.com] and Changing the Industry Podcast [https://changingtheindustrypodcast.com/] Cecil Bullard, Founder of The Institute [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/]   Show Highlights: [00:01:03] – Letting the wrong employee stay hurts the whole team. [00:05:22] – Every employee impacts the success of many families. [00:08:15] – Winning requires the right people in every role. [00:12:14] – Hire carefully and accountability problems become less common. [00:17:10] – AI makes creating job descriptions easier than ever. [00:20:11] – Structured businesses hold greater value and survive longer. [00:24:03] – Poor productivity and margins cost owners millions. [00:30:32] – Employees need coaching before owners assume resistance. [00:37:46] – New habits require daily follow up and accountability. [00:47:13] – Rising costs require pricing changes not excuses.     In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode.   👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xrs_YGYDAic [https://youtu.be/Xrs_YGYDAic]   Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this!   Links & Resources:  * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com].   Episode Transcript:   A Technician Crisis or a Productivity Problem Ask Me Anything with Cecil and David Cecil Bullard: Welcome. My name is Cecil Bullard. Welcome to the Institute Ask Me Anything. Today you get to ask me and David Roman from Changing the Industry podcast, a f- good friend of mine. Hey, David. How are you today? David Roman: This is so professional. I'm not used to this. Cecil Bullard: Oh, come on now. Wait a minute, brother. David Roman: I do the production work on my podcast. Trust me, this is professional. I just slap the stuff up on the internet and say, "Go." Cecil Bullard: There you go. I don't know. I'm a nut, so I'm a- ... I'm a perfectionist and- Yeah ... in fact, my hair is bothering me, right? And David Roman: just cut it all off. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. You'll like it. Just cut it all off. What's what's cooking with you, brother? What's what do you got for us today? I know we got some people that will be asking questions and all of that. And David Roman: you- Yeah. I've got an interesting question I- I'd like your opinion on, and this is a discussion Lucas and I have had in the past. In our minds, you, as you start to scale, you become more disconnected with the business on a personal level, and it becomes a business. I've... and this is specifically with your staff, where when the shop is small and maybe there's three employees, maybe four employees, you're all friends. You kinda hang out, you have lunch together. It's a whole thing, right? But as you start to grow the business and you've gotta start letting people go, the weak links or people that are causing problem or people that have just run their course in the business and they can no longer keep up with what you're demanding or what you need for the business to continue to succeed, you have to start letting people go. And that has and this question came up in the, in, in our Facebook group, where the person was having trouble finding the mindset and the wherewithal to let the person go that needed to be let go. And he just, he's "Man I'm just too c- too connected to the person. I don't know what to do. How do you disconnect that?" And he just, he felt bad, and he knew that when the time came, he wasn't gonna be able to pull the trigger. And I see this Incredibly detrimental to businesses in general. You see too many businesses that you walk into and you immediately identify that person's gotta go. That person is causing all this trouble here. They are binding up production. They're questioning everything you do. They're undermining your authority. They don't allow you to implement anything new because they wanna go immediately back to their old ways, and they wanna kinda hide in the weeds a- and hide in the chaos is what we call it, right? Yeah. There's chaos going on in the shop, and they just wanna hide in the chaos and just kinda cruise and collect their paycheck. And they don't let them go because they're like, "Oh, they've been with me for 15, 20 years. I can't let them go." H- how do you make that mindset shift? What have you seen? What have you seen work at other shops? How do you kinda make that change? And how have you done it within just the institute itself? Cecil Bullard: It's never easy to terminate somebody, especially someone that you may have been working with for a very long time. And there, there needs to be some loyalty to your people, right? Yeah. You can't just like, "Oh, you screwed up, so now you're gone." And I think that in mo- for me, it's been a difficult change. I, I think a lot of people think I'm a pretty cold-hearted SOB, so for me to fire somebody, no big deal. But I always keep people too long. I always have too much hope all of that. For me, I think we talk about a vision for the business. We talk about your vision statement, your mission statement, those kind of things. I think the more you clarify the rules and the roles of the job I would I might sit down with with you, David, and I might say, "What's the org chart looks like? What does this business look like, say, five years from now? What do you want out of your life," right? And you say to me Cecil, here's how that looks." And the organizational chart creates structure, right? Who answers to who. But it also, if you do it right, it can create description, job description. What do I need this person in this role to do, right? And so the more you clarify, the more the people that can't or won't get the job done will stand out, all right? And I think that I have to look at my business differently. So let's say that you and I we're buddies and we're gonna start a shop. And by the way, I'm gonna be the sales guy. You can be the tech 'cause I'm not a tech not now anymore. And I'm still pretty good at selling stuff, so- I David Roman: rebuild car, by the way. It'll be a terrible shop. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. So you don't fix cars either. We're gonna have to hire somebody. But let's say that we do that, right? And so we're best buds, and we go along for a couple of years, and I'm not getting what I need or want out of my life, right? I didn't start the institute to pay the bills, right? If I had started the institute to pay the bills, I would've worked for somebody else, right? Yeah. I started the institute to do something special in the world that I live in and to try to control my future and to create my future, and a future for my family and the families of the people I work with. So we have to start thinking differently, two years from now, we've got three techs, we've got a service advisor and you and I, and I'm not responsible for just Cecil or just Cecil and Dave. Now I'm responsible for, I don't know, 25 people, because everybody that works for me has a family, right? Yeah. And if I allow one person in the company or even two people in the company to hold the company back Then everybody gets penalized. This is a, an ecosystem. When the ecosystem gets screwed up, everybody suffers, okay? And it's one thing for me to say I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold onto David even though he's a pain in the ass, and even though he won't change and even though he costs me money and gives me aggravation because, I've got this loyalty thing and I like David and I'm gonna hold onto him." I can do that when it's just you and me, right? Because I'm only affecting me and my family, right? And I can make that decision. But, at the institute we've got 30, I don't know, 34 employees now and that only counts the institute. That doesn't count other companies that we now have brought into the institute, so we're probably closer to 60 or 70. And those are 60 or 70 families- David Roman: Yeah ... Cecil Bullard: that I have to affect. So if I have somebody in here that's fighting the, whatever, not doing their job correctly. Plus, I've created this structure in the organization, remember, because I don't wanna be the only person that's gonna draw... pull the hammer, right? I think you have to understand that and I think this is one of my, kinda one of my things. I wanna win, right? And in fact, I'm so mentally ill that I will do, l- I don't really wanna win, I just don't wanna lose. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And so I will do almost anything it takes to win. And I have to watch that, because that sometimes can push me over the edge, right? And so I have to control that part- And I have to, for, so for me, if I'm gonna win, I can't have people in the organization that can't or won't do their job- Yeah ... or that are fighting the organization. Think I used this morning with one of my clients. I said think if you were building a, you wanted to win the Super Bowl, and you're building a championship football team, and you had a receiver that couldn't catch." Yeah. Okay? What would you do with that guy? Yeah. Would you keep him on your team 'cause he's a nice guy, and, he always shows up to practice, he's early to practice, and he practices really hard? He just can't catch the ball, right? It's not his fault. He's a nice guy, right? Would you keep him? David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And the answer's no, because y- you could never win the Super Bowl. You won't. And while that might seem harsh, my- personally, I don't believe it's harsh. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: I had a... I took over this company that was failing miserably, and for the first, I don't know, eight, nine months I worked 80 hours a week. I interviewed people. I sold 1.9 million annually at the service counter by myself. I ordered parts. I did a bunch of stuff. And I was away from my family for all that, so my family suffered for that time. And so I hire this guy. We'll call him Mike. A nice guy. Really nice guy. He became my right ar- arm guy. He became the guy that when I decided I'm gonna take Mondays off, he was there Monday. If there was a unhappy customer, he took care of the unhappy customer. And so we're in this thing two and a half, three years, and he's my right arm guy, and he's allowing me to go spend time with my family. Holy smokes. Yeah. And all of a sudden, he is the most sour, rotten guy. "This effing company," and, "This it's the same effing crap every single effing day," and blah, blah, blah, and, "I hate this effing job." And, about two weeks of this, and I pull him in my office and I said, "Dude, I'm gonna terminate you." I said, "It's not that you're not, quote-unquote, doing your job, but you are so unhappy and you're so miserable, you're dragging all of us with you- Yeah ... and our customers with you. And I can't ha- " And I terminated him, right? And about two years later, he... I saw him somewhere and he came up and he said, "I just wanna thank you for firing me." David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And you're like wait a minute," that was a hard thing to do. You were my right arm guy. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And he said, "No, I needed something else." "And I went somewhere else and I found something that made me happy. The Institu- It wasn't the Institute at the time, it was Larry's, but Larry's wasn't making me happy. I couldn't- Yeah ... be happy," right? "And you recognized that, and you did the hard thing and you terminated me." David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: I, I- I think that business, the, what's different between, say, corporate business and, small business- ... right? Little family-run business. We all know each other. Kinda in corporate I probably do, too. The problem with corporate is corporate has a very distinct reason for being there. Yeah. It's about profit, and if you don't make profit- It's well de- David Roman: well defined. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. A- and if you don't make profit, then the investors leave, and you don't have a company. Yeah. It's that easy, right? And so it's very easy, and they also are much more structured. So incorporation, in a corporate, you've got the manual, you've got your, your process manual, you've got the company a man- manual, you've got the safety manual. ... You got your procedures, and if you screw that up and the profits disappear from the company, you're fired. That's it, right? Yeah. There's not... Th- there wouldn't be a manager because if the manager didn't fire you, if your direct manager didn't fire you, the guy above him would. Yeah. And he'd also fire the manager, David Roman: right? Cecil Bullard: Yeah. And so there's no... but we as owners of small businesses, we're much more compassionate, and we put up with it a lot longer. Yeah. I would also say that in a, in corporate, because you know there's consequence and you know that consequence is, it's going to happen, that you're much more likely to handle it sooner rather than later. Sometimes. So what happens... Y- yeah. In small business- Nope ... a lot of times we watch somebody go downhill, and we watch them go downhill, and it's only after we've kinda got the courage up to have the conversation, that could be six months from now- David Roman: Yeah Cecil Bullard: that we have the conversation, and by then we're probably angry, and if we're angry, we're not doing the right things. David Roman: No, we're not rational. Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. David Roman: Yeah. I've seen, I, we just had somebody on the podcast, and the guy i- is doing extremely well. He's just killing it. He's super young, and he's he just blurted out, he's I fire them as fast as I hire them." And I go hold on now. You're just finding more people and you're just cycling through?" He's "Yeah, I just cycle through them until I find the right person." And it goes back to the phrase you hire slow, you fire fast. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. David Roman: But the hiring slow si- sometimes gets glazed over. If you're finding the right people and you're taking the time to find the right people, and then just as you stated earlier, you're putting them into an organization that is well-defined in their role, in the organizational chart, the likelihood that you're gonna have somebody that you're gonna have to fire is going to go way down. I don't fire a lot of people. I haven't had to fire a lot of people, and the ones that I've had to fire is for a reason. But- Cecil Bullard: If you create accountability and- David Roman: Exactly. But that, that- And if you Cecil Bullard: manage ... David Roman: that assumes that you've got well-defined roles, job description- And that's- everybody knows exactly what they're supposed to be doing because at that point you can then hold them accountable and go, "Hey, this is what we do. We do A, B, and C. You're not doing A or B or C, whatever it happens to be. We need to either fix this or you can't be in the organization." Cecil Bullard: And, a- and in what business can you go to work and say to your boss, "No, I'm not gonna do what you asked me"? David Roman: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cecil Bullard: The o- the automotive industry, I'm sure a lot of small businesses, who knows, maybe the local bowling alley the guy that's supposed to be, spraying the disinfectant in the shoes and handing you shoes, maybe he's not doing his job right and nobody is catching it. But in, in- almost any world, if your boss asks you to do... I was when I've had an employee that won't do what I need them to do, and f- and I'm sure that we've discussed it, I'm sure they understand what it is, but they still refuse, I always ask them, "Is it illegal, immoral, or unethical?" And they're like no it's none of those. I just don't wanna do it." Okay. That's called gross insubordination, and that's means for termination. Yeah. That's in your employee manual, right? And if you read your employee manual, you understand that when the boss asks you to do something, if it isn't illegal, immoral, or unethical, then that's what you're supposed to do. I could change your whole job description. I could go, "Hey, David, from now on, you're not gonna be talking to anybody on these dang webinars," blah, blah, blah. If I'm the boss I could do that, and you could be really upset about that, but it's not illegal, it's not immoral, it's not unethical so what? Yeah. And then you have the choice to say, "I don't wanna be in that job anymore," right? I- Yeah. You changed my job to a place where I don't wanna... It's not what I wanna do. Yeah. And that's fine. But because we know people, because we're intimately involved with them, we know their lives. My our top admin person is in Ireland right now getting married, along with most of our admin staff. And and you're like, we know these people. We know their lives. We know their husbands, their wives, their kids. They've been to the barbecue, et cetera. I think the way that I look at it is I owe it to the company and to the people we serve. So I've had the opportunity to change- Probably anywhere from 4 to 10,000 lives for the better- in most cases. I, at least I hope so, right? And if I didn't terminate unhealthy people out of the organization- Yeah ... I would've changed a lot less lives. Yeah. I would've helped a lot less people, right? And so I, I look at it differently, and it still takes me too long, and it's still painful to let someone go. David Roman: Yeah. And th- this brings up another question that somebody had had popped up in, in one of the Facebook groups, and that ha- has to do with job descriptions. And just pertaining to the conversation we were just having, if the, if you're not outlining the job for the person, they will invent something for themselves. Cecil Bullard: Yep. David Roman: And then the minute you ask them to do something that in their mind they've created this job description, "This is what I do," it's okay, since I didn't define it, I guess you defined it for yourself. Now I'm asking you to do something that's not within that purview. You're gonna get upset, and then all of a sudden the the hostility starts because now they're slighted that, "Hey we didn't discuss this. Why are you asking me to do this? That's outside of my job description." I don't have a job description written out for you. You invented it for yourself. But This was somebody that needed a something on paper, and I said, "Look, at the very least, you can always start with technician fix the car." Cecil Bullard: Yeah, fix the car. Just David Roman: start Cecil Bullard: with- It should, frankly, right? David Roman: Yeah. Be- I'm telling you, these shop owners- ... they get in their heads about job descriptions and standard operating procedures, and they just overcomplicate it, and they're like I gotta have this outline, and it's gotta look like corporate," like you were saying, the HR manual, and this, that, and the other. You don't need to have all that. Just start with the very basics. Like- Cecil Bullard: But the funny thing is today, first of all, from the institute, if you want a job description, we got job descriptions. I- if you're a client, certainly you have access to all of that. But I would almost tell you that I have posted job descriptions, all kinds of things online- 50 times, yeah. And it... Right now, if you were to Google or use AI and say, "I need a job description for a technician that does XYZ," and you were to just basically define it, it would come up with a pretty dang decent job description for you. And you can- ... David Roman: adjust from there. Cecil Bullard: Yeah, and then you can make adjustments. It's AI, and a lot of us are afraid of AI in our industry, and a lot of us don't really understand what AI is or, some of us think it's gonna, it's gonna decide to destroy us, Skynet and all of that. It's coming David Roman: up. Cecil Bullard: But you never know. Skynet launching David Roman: the missiles or Cecil Bullard: coming to town. Any minute, right? But I think I don't even have to use AI. I can go online and say, "Can I have a job description for a technician?" And Google's gonna give me five different job descriptions. Yeah. And I can go through and pick and choose the pieces that fit my job descriptions. It is... It's not 25 years ago where you might if you went to Google and said I don't know if Google's 25 years old, it's probably about 25. I had- It's almost there ... an opportunity to buy Google stock way back then, which I did not do otherwise. But- David Roman: We wouldn't Cecil Bullard: be talking right now. But no, we would... Maybe not the same conversation. We'd be on a boat. But yeah. But if I... 25 years ago if I said, "Give me a job description," it would've went "I'm sorry. W- what? Huh?" And probably for the last 10 years, I could've went on and got a job description if I really wanted to get a job description. The other problem we have, I think just as an industry, is that we're so busy Just trying to do the job of keep the cars going through and keep the customer happy, that we forget that we need to organize and structure the business in order to ultimately be successful, right? Yeah. There are so many guys that are my age and older that are having to get out of the business for health issues that they haven't structured their business, so there's no- nothing to sell, right? It's solely based on whether or not you made any money, and if you didn't make enough, then it isn't, it has no value. And it's a real shame to watch guys in their, late 60s, mid sev- to mid-70s when they realize, "I'm gonna have to retire and all I'm really gonna have is the little bit of money I saved and my Social Security, if it exists, and I'm not gonna get, really get anything out of this company that I r- I ran for the last 45 years." David Roman: Or they're delusional and they think that thing's worth a quarter million doll- And it's dude- Cecil Bullard: Yeah, and they're David Roman: never gonna get it ... you're doing $30,000 a month and you're not even profitable. What? Cecil Bullard: Yeah. And they're ne- and they're never gonna get it. I mean- ... and, a-again, the more you st- you know with I know a lot of people are not happy with the thought of venture capital coming in and all that, but they're here. And the more you structure your business, the more you pull yourself out of the day-to-day roles in the business, the more your business becomes worth. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Whether you sell it to venture capital or you sell it to your service advisor or someone else who's looking to build their bench, right? Or their their platform. It's it... The game has changed a lot, unfortunately. I was do- a bunch of statistical data we did last week for this big meeting that we were having I think a 127,000 shops out of about 260 are just gonna close in the next five years. David Roman: Yeah. ' Cecil Bullard: Cause there's no, there's nothing there. There's no value. And there might be another 100,000 that will open and start, yeah. But a bunch of guys are just gonna disappear and fade away because they didn't structure, they didn't You know, build job descriptions and flow charts and, Biggest issue in the industry in my opinion is that we really don't fully understand our business, and therefore we don't really run our business in a financially prosperous way. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. David Roman: Not having those steps outlined... And I, a- about my shop. I'm not- Yeah ... in my shop at all, ever. Yeah. I don't go down. I avoid it. I go to the dumpster once a month and dump stuff out of my house that I need to throw away. And that's it. I just Cecil Bullard: did that this weekend, man. Dumpster's full. David Roman: Yeah. And but the reason why that's been possible, and it- not that I'm maximizing profitability or to the nth degree and tweaking this, that, and the other, but we at least got the blocking tackling down. Yeah. A- and it's automated to the, to a certain point that the manager can talk to anybody that they bring in and say, "This is where we hang the keys. This is where the car goes. This is where we hang the keys for the next car." "This is how we estimate." "This is how we dispatch the work." "This is how we price." "This is how we do the estimate." Yeah. Yeah. "This is how we..." Everything's automated on the shop management side. Y- so just whatever the price is, that's the price. This is how we outline the repairs. Everything is just set up in a specific fashion that it can be tra- it's trainable. They can go onto somebody else brand new... And I brought in two people in the last six months, a tech and somebody to help up front so I don't have to be there at all. And they have, they've been able to get trained on the processes where w- I just had a conversation with somebody, and they were saying that they had brought in this tech. This guy is just hurting for techs, just dying to get techs. Finally gets somebody to bite, and he's probably throwing huge money out there because he finally, he got somebody- I know. Yeah ... and they actually moved their box into the shop. So the money was there. Within two hours, the guy was gone. Two hours, Zola, it took for the guy go, "This isn't gonna work. I gotta go." " Cecil Bullard: I can't make this work." David Roman: Yeah. Yeah. And I guarantee he walked in and he's he was just handed a clipboard, and he's "Hey, fix that car." And he's li- looking at the clipboard, and there's some scribbles on it, and it, there's no process. Where do the keys go? Where are my parts? What work needs to be done? How many hours am I getting paid for? Like, all of these very basic things that need to be outlined haven't been outlined, and the, they're, everybody's just kinda shooting from the hip. 25 years later, they're trying to get rid of the business, and they're like What do you want me to sell here? There's nothing to sell. There's no processes, there's nothing. You're in the business every single day shooting from the hip. Yeah, you can't- You remove yourself from the business, like what do you do? Cecil Bullard: And you're also costing yourself, probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars over the 40 years that you run the business. Absolutely. Because you're not maximizing, your business. I had a new client it actually wasn't one of my clients, but I often am involved in new client meetings with some of our coaches and- so we have a new client come on board, and their parts margin's off by 14%. And you're like, "Oh, that's 50 grand," right? And then you look at their productivity's at about 55%. And you're like, "Oh, there's 200,000." And so think about that. If you can clean up your margins and your productivity and, put another, say, $200,000 a year into your profit, at over 40 years let's say you s- you saved f- 25% of that. You put 25 grand away every year for 40 years, what would you have, right? Yeah. It's... I- you'd have what, $10 million? Yeah ... maybe 20 because of the interest stuff. A- and so you're not just creating frustration for the people around you, you're not just reducing value in, say, your business, but you're potentially costing your family millions of dollars worth of revenue that you could have just even if you just ran your business smartly and saved a little bit on the- Yeah on the way. And it's unfortunate to see that because those are the same guys. We do a lot of I don't know, we do a lot of... I don't call it marketing, but we do a lot of meetings and stuff. And so we bring in people, we do this leadership intensive meeting, and we bring in shop owners. And a shop owner'll come in and he'll bring his two or three kids in. So we've got a, a 25-year-old a 23-year-old, and a 19-year-old, and they're all there, and they wanna have nothing to do with Dad's business. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Nothing. They don't wanna be involved because they watched their dad work 80 hours a week and struggle to pay the bills and all of a sudden- Stressed out David Roman: of his mind. Cecil Bullard: Yeah ... yeah, and all of a sudden, they're now at an age where they could participate and Dad would maybe like them to participate, but they're not interested at all. Because they don't see any future for themselves in it. We didn't show them a future 'cause we didn't even create a future for ourselves. And to me, that's- that's kinda a l- that's a little criminal. So i- it would go back to, Cecil, how do you terminate somebody that's been with you for seven years that, has-- When you started the business, they were an essential part, and they've kinda worked themselves out of that, their attitude or even what they do, or they haven't kept up on their education or whatever. How do you terminate? Because 15 years from now when my kids are 25, 30, I want them in the business with me. I don't want them, I don't want them going out to do something else with somebody else. Yeah. One of the greatest joys of my life today is being able to work with one of my children, day to day. Yeah. And my second greatest joy is having all of my family near me and having good relationships with all of my family. Yesterday- Yeah ... it was it was my birthday. Don't, please don't do anything or don't send me any more happy birthdays. But- But I was able to have my family with me. And just have a, a nice evening. And the f- the cool thing is the dad is to sit back and watch the kids interact with each other and have good interactions, right? Of they tease each other, give each other crap, but it's all in fun. And, that's... A- and part of that's because I didn't... 'Cause when I was home, I tried to be home 'cause I wanted to have those relationships, and when I was at work, I tried to be at work because I knew that I needed, when I'm at work, I need to be at work so that I can have the home time that I need, right? David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Whoever might be listening to us, if you do have questions, we certainly would be more than happy if you'll put them in the comments to answer any of those questions. So- It's gotta be a David Roman: good question, otherwise I won't ask it. Cecil Bullard: Yeah, crappy question, we're not gonna- David Roman: Crappy questions are Cecil Bullard: ignored. No. No crappy quest- So how do you fire somebody? How do you actually terminate somebody? That might be, a good question. Yeah. First of all, you do not go into long, lengthy explanations about what they didn't do right. You're just opening yourself up for argument, pain, and I always just tell people, we've made a decision. We're going to be letting you go." Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And and, Now if, David Roman: In my state, if you don't have good documentation- Yeah ... it turns into now you're fighting them for unemployment benefits and this, that, and the other. In every state. Yeah. And th- and this is... if the person needs to just go, they just need to go and just pay up. It's whatever. Yeah, I don't care about unemployment. Cecil Bullard: And David Roman: we're having that Cecil Bullard: assist-- Yeah. I never cared about unemployment and I never used- David Roman: They raked me over the coals- I used that- in Kansas, let me tell you. Yeah. I never used that- If somebody actually dips into it. Cecil Bullard: Yeah, I never used that as a decision about hiring or terminating. If I need to terminate you and I end up paying unemployment, it's part of the game. Yeah. David Roman: But I will say that if you specifically have a job description You've got something outlined and they are violating whatever it is that you've got in writing with their- Yeah signature acknowledgement that they know that this is what's there, and you know that, hey, this is now going down this path. And it really for me, it's ... I'm looking at it two or three steps down. If I can sit down and coach this person and have conversation and go, "Hey, you're not doing this. I need you to pivot," then I'm gonna have that conversation, and it's not gonna get written down. However, if I see them going down this path that, hey, this is not salvageable, I need to let this person go, the first violation is a write-up. Got you. "Hey, you didn't do this. Here's your write-up." Usually they go on their own, but if they don't, it's just three write-ups and then boom, they're gone. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. David Roman: And- And then that's it. And then the minute- But- ... that the state sends me that letter- Yeah ... here's the write-ups. Boom boom. There you go. Fax it over. Done. Cecil Bullard: And, and- David Roman: I'm not paying squat. And Cecil Bullard: so I wanna make it real clear for anyone that's listening, you need to understand your state's HR laws because- Yeah. ... You need a, an HR professional in your state because each state has different rules about that. Yeah. And in Calif- I know California and Utah really well 'cause I've run businesses in both. I actually know New Jersey now pretty well. W- that's another long story- ... which we won't get into but I'll also tell you I'll never have an employee from New Jersey again. The rules are just too complicated. In California, I have to write you up three times for the same thing. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And I have to put deadlines in your write-ups I need, in two weeks I need improvement here, and this is the improvement I need to see, so that it's not ambiguous. Yeah. And you can't be ambiguous. It'll get you in trouble. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: It looks like we have a question- We have a David Roman: question, yeah, Cecil Bullard: from Adam ... that someone's gonna ask there. David Roman: Says, "I'm interested to know if you have a limit to explaining a procedure to an employee. I've had to tell one of my advisors to go over inspections at pickup, and he keeps m- he keeps missing it. What should I do?" Cecil Bullard: I... For me I have a rule, and my rule is when I determine that there is no more hope, I terminate the employee. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: So I don't I don't have somebody and I don't have a three times. Okay, I'm gonna explain it three times, and if you don't get it in three times you're done. I don't have that rule. As long as I, I believe that you can get it if I help you or someone else helps you, then I'm gonna keep you and keep working with you. David Roman: Yep. Cecil Bullard: Usually for me, maybe the fifth time is the time where I go, "They're just never gonna get it." The minute, the second I go, "They're never gonna get it," I terminate. I'm... And I don't keep people on because I've watched time and time again where someone said I'll fire him on Friday or next week," and they hurt their back or they- Yeah. Oh, yeah ... they tore their shoulder or they- ... dropped the wheel on their foot and broke their foot or- Yeah ... it just happens. This thing happens. And all of a sudden I've got an employee for life, or at least for the next year- ... that that I'm gonna end up paying for who I knew couldn't and wouldn't do the job. When you- Yeah There is a point and I gotta tell you, being the, like the director I am the direct guy, like I'm gonna sit down with somebody and say, "I've explained this to you four times and you're still not doing it. Why aren't you doing it?" David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Because it's almost never, "I don't understand it. I don't know how to do it." It's either you didn't- If it is David Roman: a competency thing- Yeah ... what were you doing during the interview process that you couldn't identify that this person- That I- ... can't read or write? Cecil Bullard: Can't... Yeah. . Yeah. Did you have them? I have them write out a paragraph and, and- ... on their own. Like the wife can't do it or the husband can't do it for the wife. Yeah. And like you have to write a paragraph on your own and what was your interview process like? You may have somebody that i- in most cases, I would tell you it's probably somebody that has... It's like the, "I don't wanna do it." David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: The... I had an employee that I decided we were gonna announce sales over the intercom. "Hey, Bob, we sold all the work on that blue Honda. It's due Wednesday at 5:00." And so I brought two of my employees in, and both great employees, and I said "Here's what we're gonna do, and what do you guys think about that?" And they were all like, "Yeah, okay, fine." So you want us to do it, we'll do it," right? And so I watched, and my one guy did, the other guy didn't. And I brought the other guy in five, five weeks and I said, in, in five days, and I said, "Hey, remember that conversation we had five days ago about announcing things?" "Oh, yeah." I said I've watched. You haven't announced anything. What's up?" "Oh, it's stupid." Yeah. "Oh, okay. That's fair. It's okay." I said "What part of it is illegal, immoral, or uneth- unethical?" And he went none of it." I said, "Okay, so now you're putting me in a weird position because I'm your boss. I've asked you to do something that's not illegal, immoral, or unethical, and you're telling me no or you're just not gonna do it. So you're being passive-aggressive. You told me you would, but now you're not." Yeah. "That's passive-aggre- can't have passive-aggressive people in the company," blah, blah, blah. Okay, I'll do it," right? And he goes out and I watch another week and he doesn't announce anything. So I went to our HR cabinet, I got out a resignation form, I filled it out for him, gross insubordination. Brought him in my office. I said, "Remember the meeting we had five days ago about the meeting we had five days prior about announcing things?" "Yeah." I said, "You're still not announcing things." He goes, "Yeah, I know. It's stupid." I said, "Okay, that's fine. I just need you to sign this-" David Roman: Yeah . "... Cecil Bullard: and and we'll be walking you out of the building." And he went I don't wanna quit my job." I said you already have." Yeah. "You're not doing what I asked you to do." And so what are you telling all the other employees that I have, right? What are you telling everybody else? You David Roman: can pick and choose what you wanna do. Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. See, whatever Cecil says doesn't matter. Yeah. I can't have that, right? It's it's no way to run a successful company. David Roman: Here's a follow-up to this. Is this one of those things in California where you need to have multiple write-ups before you're able to fire them? Three, I can just check our HR laws, as you said as well, good old California. Yeah, so- Cecil Bullard: Yeah ... David Roman: check your HR laws. Be very specific about what it is. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. David Roman: Consult an attorney. Cecil Bullard: But David Roman: if you have- I have one of Cecil Bullard: those- If you have an employee manual and they're doing gross insubordination, let's say that you had a, I don't know, you had a cell phone policy that was like, "No cell phones while you're working on cars." That's a safety issue. If someone violates that in certain states, I believe California, that's gross insubordination. That is terms for immediate dismissal if it's spelled out that way in your employee manual, and I don't have- It's a safety concern ... to go through all the BS, right? Yeah. There are things that wouldn't fall under that, and you just have to, you have to look in your state, Yeah ... and have... I really recommend, and we don't understand as shop owners what our liability is. We work on... I got a I was talking to these new clients, and they're basically a general repair shop, but they're like we got our Toyota, Honda price. If we're working on a Maserati, should our price be different?" I said, "You're working on Maserati?" I said- Oh my God, right? The problem is if one of my guys backs a Toyota into the rack, it's gonna cost me a couple of grand. One of the guys backs a Maserati into the rack, it's gonna cost me $40,000 to fix it, right? Yeah. And we don't understand the liability that we create for ourselves sometimes in this business. And so I recommend that everybody, whatever state you're in, that you have an HR professional in that state that can give you the proper advice so you don't get yourself in trouble because- And a David Roman: lot of times, like my insurance company will provide- Yeah some assistance- Yeah ... with like manuals and things like that so you don't get yourself in trouble, because they're trying to limit their liability risks a- as well. And also- Cecil Bullard: Assuming that you have that kind of insurance, and everybody should. David Roman: Yeah, every, yeah. If your insurance company isn't offering that, you need to question whether you have the correct insurance company or if you have enough insurance coverage. Cecil Bullard: Yeah. David Roman: That's an issue as well. But specifically dealing with this employee you need to find out whether this is a competency thing or a compliance thing. If it's just that they don't wanna do it because they're uncomfortable, that's probably what it is. They're just uncomfortable bringing it up. Okay, that's a training opportunity, and you need to think back, "Why did I even hire this person, or why do I have th- what value do they bring to the table?" And if the value is more than what you're paying them, obviously, then it's a net benefit to the company, but you need to try to keep them and go, "Okay, let me give you the verbiage, and then you change it up to whatever best fits you, but this is the verbiage you should be using in order to bring the thing up," because maybe they're uncomfortable bringing the inspection up at after or at pickup. If it's just "No, I think it's dumb," then like you're saying, at this point, it's okay now we have a problem. Cecil Bullard: You're also, there's a question of habit. So my habit is to say, "Thank you very much," hand them their keys after I took their money, and now I, now my boss wants me to add this referral process, okay? And I'm not thinking that. For the last five years, I've just handed them the keys and said thank you, right? And so when y- whenever you're gonna introduce a new habit into your mix, a new thing, you need 60 days, and you need 60 days of daily QC, quality control. Yeah. You have to... You literally have to look- Over the employee's shoulder, make sure that they're doing it. And usually you're in 30, 35 days if you've got good QC. You've created the new habit, and now it's the norm and not- Yeah ... the old thing. Often you have an employee that you have asked to do things, but they don't exactly understand how to do it. And you have not really shown them how to do it. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: And so therefore they don't know how to do it, and then they don't do it, and you go, "Why won't you do it?" And so I just wanna make sure that I'm... My wife tells me I'm a horrible communicator. I'm always... It's no, that's not what you said." I went to pick her up this weekend and I, I texted her, I, "I'm gonna be there at 2:30," and the night before we talked and then I said, "Somewhere between 2:00 and 3:00. We'll text tomorrow and we'll figure out, and I'll come get you." And so at about 2:10 I text her, "Hey, I'm gonna be there at 2:30." And she goes I'm already outside." And so I'm a terrible communicator. I don't communicate clearly, obviously, right? And so my assumption when I have someone that doesn't do what we've talked about, that I didn't communicate it well enough. And then my assumption the second time is that they don't really understand it, they don't really know how to do it, 'cause if they did, they'd probably be doing it. Yeah. And so I'm gonna go through that two, three, four times to make sure that I've taught them properly, that they actually know how to do it. I'm gonna sign them off on it, because I'm gonna watch them do it- Yeah ... the way it needs to be done. And then if they still won't do it past then I have a compliance problem, not a competence problem. David Roman: Yeah. And I think we fall into a trap ourselves where we communicate the way we would want it communicated to us, and these are completely different people. I'm a five percenter, like I... And I'm a high D. Like just tell me what the- Yeah, how much, how many people are like you and me, right? Exactly. Tell me- Cecil Bullard: There are like David Roman: five of them ... what the end goal is. What is it that you wanted to accomplish? And I'll make it happen. Yeah. I don't need the steps, I don't need you- Yeah ... to break it down. But most people aren't like that. And I had a manager that I worked under for years, and he used to tell me, "Break it down into the ridiculous." For some of these people, you need to break it down into the ridiculous, because if you don't- Pretend I'm a Cecil Bullard: third grader. David Roman: Y- yeah, if you don't do that, you're not gonna get the outcome that you want. You have a very specific outcome that you want accomplished, and these people just don't know the steps. They can't make the steps up themselves, or they're afraid to because they don't wanna mess up, so they just don't do anything. They freeze, right? So break it down to the ridiculous, step by step. Step one, do this. Step two, step this. And if you do that, then you will ensure the outcome that you want. And that might be all that's happening here is this person just needs to Give the person the verbiage, and then like you're saying, 60 days of, "I'm behi-" If you actually want it to happen, don't assume that the other, the, this advisor's gonna work like the other one. The other one was obviously was just like, "Hey, make this happen." Made it happen. But this one is not gonna be like that. It's gonna be, "I'm gonna stand behind you. We're gonna maybe step through this. What do you say next? Hand it, hand them the inspection," whatever the process happens to be. But you have to go step by step, and it's gonna be a little bit of work for you which I've tried to avoid. That's why I have a manager. Just give it to the manager- Yeah ... and go, "Hey, make this happen." Cecil Bullard: Make this happen, right? Yeah. I wanna make sure that every person that leaves has gone through the referral process and been asked for referrals, and scheduled for their next appointment. And I, it blows my mind because I just have these owners who tell me we can't, I can't get my people to do it. I can't I can't get..." And I'm like, "you... Yes, you can. I've seen it happen. It does work." Yeah. It's not impossible. David Roman: Yeah. " Cecil Bullard: Oh, no, this is impossible," "people won't schedule an appointment." Oh, if you ask them, if you tell them, they will, believe it or not, 'cause I've done it. And yeah I think that in most cases that we make a lot of assumptions, and we don't break it down into the pieces. And when we, whenever we make assumptions, we get ourselves in trouble, David Roman: right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cecil Bullard: Absolutely. Absolutely. We still have about 10 minutes here. Yeah, if, so if anyone's online and they wanna ask a question you got me and David both here. If not, David, what what other questions have come up on the podcast recently? David Roman: They we've had one that, that has been setting me off. And this isn't... Now this has come up in the Facebook group, but then I've seen this in other industries, and it's been about parts pricing. So there's a bunch of stuff going on in the Middle East, this, that, and the other, and there are announcements coming out saying that, "Hey, the price of synthetic oil is going to skyrocket because it's just not gonna be available." It Cecil Bullard: has. Yeah. David Roman: The... Yeah. And so everybody's freaking out, going what are you gonna do?" And then I just saw a story the other day about a, i've seen two. We had a barbecue place here in Kansas City shut down, and the guy didn't blame his marketing. The guy didn't say, "Hey, my marketing sucks. I have great barbecue but nobody shows up at my door because I'm not telling anybody about it, and I'm in a terrible location, and it's really hard to get into my building," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. None of those things. What did he blame? The price of beef. He said, "Man these beef prices are just out of control, and my margins are just getting tighter and tighter," and this, that, and the other. And then I saw another place in Texas, same line. "Oh, these beef prices are just out of control," this, that. And apparently, the beef prices wholesale haven't changed in the last two to three years. They're the exact same. They haven't gone up. They went up, but it was, like, two or three years ago they spiked, and then they've just been flat. And so these pla- these places and these shop owners are freaking out about cost of goods sold. Cost of goods sold are irrelevant to me because I just mark it up and sell it. That- I'm not paying for it. I've- My customer pays for it. I just mark it up- I've had- ... and sell it. Cecil Bullard: I've had- The David Roman: price is what I... It is what it is. Cecil Bullard: I've had people tell me recently, I don't know how to charge for oil because the price of oil has gone up so drama- three times what it was. And I'm like- It's okay ... how were you charging before, right? We were using a matrix or we had a lower price, right? You might have a lower price in. And all of a sudden they don't know how to price oil. If it costs me a dollar and I'm selling it for three if it costs me $3, I'm probably gonna sell it for nine. Yeah. It's not hard. To me, it's not hard at all. But I'm... I don't wanna close my doors because the price of beef went up. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Okay? I went over to McDonald's yesterday. I don't ever eat at McDonald's, but I got a dollar cheeseburger. I think it was, like, a buck 89. I was... Wait a minute. That's on the do- that's a dollar... it's a buck 89. Get a dollar- Yeah. It, the- ... dollar things aren't anymore. Dollar- The price of beef went up. McDonald's raised their prices. Holy crap. Are we really not smart enough? We're buying groceries. We're buy- we're getting gas. I went and got gas. It was $4.63. And do you think the people that sell us gas haven't raised their prices because the price of oil has gone up? Yeah. I mean- David Roman: It's the craziest mindset. I have no idea where these people are, like... are you nuts? It's... I can understand- He- ... the a bottom-of-the-line expense. "Hey, my insurance tripled. Okay, I'm gonna have to raise my prices because I need this percentage on my P&L to stay about the same, so this is gonna cost more up the top here." But a cost of goods sold? Like- Cecil Bullard: Yeah ... David Roman: the pri- whatever I buy it for, you just mark it up and you sell it. So whatever the price comes in at, it's like- Cecil Bullard: Who David Roman: cares? I'm sorry. And then if the customer says anything, you just, you blame something in the Middle East. You blame Saudi Ara- Cecil Bullard: You blame Iran. Yeah. You blame Trump. You, you- David Roman: Yeah. Just blame something that- I'm sorry ... you have no control over ... it had nothing to do with it ... because you don't. Yeah. I don't have any control of what they sell it to me for. Yeah. And neither do they because I still have to make my margins on it. So yeah, you don't blame the beef price. And what's insane is the, this guy in Kansas City that had to close his barbecue place The minute he got featured in In- he was on Instagram as one of those small business... He cleans windows, but he features these small businesses when he close, when he goes to clean their windows, and he wears the AI glasses, and he does this whole thing. It's a nice, it's a nice channel. It's all Kansas City businesses. The minute he was featured on this massive Instagram channel, he sold out of food every day for, from that point on until he closed his doors. For the next two weeks, he was... By 6:00, he was completely- So what if he raised his Cecil Bullard: price like $2 a pound or whatever? David Roman: If he had just raised his prices- Cecil Bullard: He'd still David Roman: be in business, right? Or he- Yeah ... I'm like, he didn't go, "Hey, if I just had better marketing. If I just had be- Yeah ... because these people found me, they'll probably come back." And it's w- it's insane to me. And he doesn't go "Hey, just a mile down the road is a barbecue place with a line out the door." Cecil Bullard: Yeah. " David Roman: They're paying the same price I'm paying for the beef. So you're done. You can't tell me these shops that are making three, four, five million, these shops that are expanding, they're hiring people, they're paying the same price as you for this oil. What are they doing?" Oh, they're marking it up. They're marking it up. Something, man. Yeah, they're marking Cecil Bullard: it up David Roman: because we're not nuts. Who the hell cares what you're buying it for? Yeah. You gotta... These... We gotta get out of this mindset. I have no idea. Cogs Cecil Bullard: of special- That's, it's the $29.99 oil change mindset. It's the, I have to have this loss leader that, that puts me out of business that gets people in my shop. And it makes me mad. I won't mention names, but we keep this myth alive because it gets us hits. David Roman: Yeah. Cecil Bullard: Because it gets us attention, right? I'm sorry. It's putting shops out of business. It's putting families at risk. It's... y- Your customers will pay what they believe there's value in, and they will not fight or argue about it. You and I both know that. Probably most of the people that li- will listen to this already know that. So if the oil price goes up, the price of the oil service goes up. It, i- it's what it is. If they raise coolant prices... I remember when you could buy coolant for two bucks a gallon. You're sure as hell not buying it for two bucks a gallon now. We used to sell it for six. Yeah. And and now, I don't know, 20 bucks a gallon or something. And so I'm not selling it for six. David Roman: It's oil right now. Yeah. But I'm just... it's... But two or three years ago it was freaking, Cecil Bullard: we David Roman: went through the- ... R1234yf. Yeah, we went through the whole- "What's everybody doing about 1234yf? I just don't understand. Blah, blah, blah." It's dude what Cecil Bullard: are you talking David Roman: about? Freon. Cecil Bullard: Freon back in the day. Just... Freon. Yeah, it just... Yeah. I... We were selling Freon for two bucks a pound when it was R12, and within three months it was $60 a pound. It, 'cause our cost went up dramatically and so the customer paid 60 bucks a pound. David Roman: And we're- And not only that the machines, the 1234yf machines- Yeah ... are so incredibly slow. Yeah. So it takes three times the amount of time that the old- They used to- ... 134a systems, you used to hit a couple buttons and it would zap through the service and then you're in and out. Where this one takes so much longer. So yeah, guess what? My refrigerant service, if you've got 1234yf and I have a specific line- Costs more money ... that we run performance testing, it's triple the price of the standard w- 134a system. And when they ask, you go, "Why is it so much?" It's 'cause you have 1234yf. You have the new refrigerant. Every car is gonna have the new refrigerant now. Yeah. So guess what? Every car is gonna have to be dealing with this. And I just wanna point this out. Lance makes a comment emotional discounting. The customer will walk in with a $10 Starbucks coffee. It... They will co- come in and complain about your price with their $10 Starbucks coffee. It's it's even worse than that, and I was telling this to Lucas. Da- DoorDash just reported profit reve- or record revenue- ... and profitability. DoorDash. They'll Cecil Bullard: pay for DoorDash. They'll pay $18 to get David Roman: a hamburger delivered. $18 for that $1.89 hamburger. To get that hamburger delivered to their- $18 because they want it at their door. While they're complaining about auto repair But then they complain about my $80 oil change. Yeah. No, no thanks. Get out of here. Cecil Bullard: No, thanks. David Roman: Nah. Just, just- People got money is all I'm saying ... and- People got money. You just gotta- And if the s- ... charge what you gotta charge. Yeah. Don't worry about it. And if we- They'll find a way to pay for it ... Cecil Bullard: if we at shops understood what our value is and what our liability is, we'd be charging more than we're charging now. Yeah. Yeah. Which is not... we don't have time for that discussion. In fact, we're gonna have to wrap it up. I guess we're getting to the end of this. Yeah. And we have important lives and other things to do. We'll have another one of these coming up in a few weeks. And David, thank you very much for being here, and thanks for your- Great conversation. I appreciate it ... questions and comments. Yeah. And you know I love you, brother, so- Yeah. You too ... take care, all right? David Roman: All right.