Why the Kirkpatrick Model Isn't an L&D Tool — It's a Business Model with Jawad Ahmed

Why the Kirkpatrick Model Isn't an L&D Tool — It's a Business Model with Jawad Ahmed

In this episode of The Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa sits down in person with Jawad Ahmed, a longtime Kirkpatrick Partners affiliate and director at C2C in India, for a candid conversation about how the Kirkpatrick Model travels — and sometimes gets lost — across borders. Jawad shares what changed for him the moment he was certified in 2015, the myth he hears most often from HR and L&D professionals, and why so many organizations still stall out before reaching Level 3 and Level 4 of the Kirkpatrick Four Levels®. The conversation turns to India's fast-growing learning and development market, the rise of Global Capability Centers, and where artificial intelligence is — and isn't — making a dent in evaluation today. Vanessa and Jawad also dig into what it takes to move a leader from a check-the-box mindset to real investment in outcomes, and why that shift starts with understanding what's actually on a leader's dashboard. Takeaways: • The Kirkpatrick Model is a business model, not just an L&D framework. • Most L&D professionals believe they know the model — most haven't seen it applied. • AI has transformed Levels 1 and 2 of evaluation. Levels 3 and 4 still require a human-led system. • Real partnership with the business starts before a training program ever begins. Learn more about building a culture of evaluation at kirkpatrickpartners.com [https://kirkpatrickpartners.com]. Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment [https://kirkpatrickmaturityassessment.scoreapp.com/] and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now [https://www.amazon.com/Building-Culture-Evaluation-Kirkpatrick-Performance/dp/1963392337/] Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective [https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/] and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/the-kirkpatrick-model/] Watch the Show on YouTube! [https://youtu.be/YJcUlbd7-j8] Submit your Questions/Stories: [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Valid vs. Available: The Data Trap Most Orgs Fall Into

Most organizations are confident they have data. Loads of it. But in this episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa sits down with psychometrician and data-analytics professor Dr. Anna Lissitz to ask the uncomfortable question: is it the right data — and is it telling you the truth? Anna, who wrote the triangulation chapter in Building a Culture of Evaluation, makes the case that a single metric — measured one way, at one moment, from one perspective — simply cannot tell the whole story. Worse, the data leaders feel most confident about is often the data that just confirms what they already believed. Together they unpack why completion rates and satisfaction scores feel safe but hide poor performance, what separates valid data from merely available data, and how triangulation turns shaky numbers into decisions you can stand behind. In this episode: • Why "we have lots of data" and "we have good data" are not the same thing • The difference between valid data and available data — and why it matters • How triangulation protects you from false confidence and confirmation bias • Why a low survey response rate is itself a finding, not a dead end • Where AI helps with evaluation — and where it can quietly mislead you Ready to stop studying evaluation and start building it? The Kirkpatrick® Builder Certification [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/event/kirkpatrick-builder-certification/] is a hands-on, live-online program where you design a complete set of evaluation instruments across all four levels — for your own initiative. The founding cohort runs Sept 28–Oct 2, 2026. Learn more and register at kirkpatrickpartners.com [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/event/kirkpatrick-builder-certification/]. Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment [https://kirkpatrickmaturityassessment.scoreapp.com/] and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now [https://www.amazon.com/Building-Culture-Evaluation-Kirkpatrick-Performance/dp/1963392337/] Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective [https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/] and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/the-kirkpatrick-model/] Watch the Show on YouTube! [https://youtu.be/RITzXSoIVHQ] Submit your Questions/Stories: [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

AI Can't Read the Room: Myra Roldan on Why Human Judgment Still Wins

Everyone says they're behind on AI. According to Myra Roldan, Chief AI Officer of UnDesto AI, if everyone's behind, then no one really is — and that hype is costing organizations real money. In this episode, Vanessa sits down with Myra, a 15+-year AI veteran, framework builder, and contributor to Vanessa's upcoming book, for a refreshingly honest conversation about what AI can and can't do for the modern organization. Together they pull apart the most expensive misconceptions: that personal AI use translates to business readiness, that everyone is suddenly a programmer, and that a 90% "adoption" rate means anything when people are really just using AI to read meeting notes. The throughline is one Kirkpatrick Partners has championed for years — AI is a powerful accelerator, but human judgment, context, and ethics still decide whether the work is any good. Myra and Vanessa also explore why the Kirkpatrick Model can evaluate an entire AI implementation, not just a training program, and why a negative return early on is normal, not a reason to quit. In this episode: • Why "we're behind on AI" is usually a myth — and an expensive one • The difference between AI adoption and real, value-creating usage • How to measure AI's impact with the Kirkpatrick Model and Return on Expectations • Why your people — not the tools — are your real business intelligence Ready to evaluate AI with rigor? Join the Kirkpatrick AI-Powered Evaluation Specialist Certification at https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/event/kirkpatrick-ai-specialist-1/ [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/event/kirkpatrick-ai-specialist-1/] Connect with Myra: https://www.linkedin.com/in/myraroldan/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/myraroldan/] https://www.undesto.ai/ [https://www.undesto.ai/] Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment [https://kirkpatrickmaturityassessment.scoreapp.com/] and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now [https://www.amazon.com/Building-Culture-Evaluation-Kirkpatrick-Performance/dp/1963392337/] Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective [https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/] and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/the-kirkpatrick-model/] Watch the Show on YouTube! [https://youtu.be/tWrqcRuStdE] Submit your Questions/Stories: [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Is it Really Survey Fatigue? Or Is It Survey-Action Fatigue. — Dr. Benjamin Granger

Ask executives whether they act on the feedback they get from employees, and 85 to 95% will say absolutely. Ask the frontline the same question, and the score drops by 30 to 50 points. That gap is the heart of this episode. Vanessa sits down with Dr. Benjamin Granger, Chief Workplace Psychologist at Qualtrics, a contributor to her book Building a Culture of Evaluation and author of A Leader Worth Following. Together they unpack one of the most persistent findings in Ben's research: most leaders aren't failing to act on feedback — they're failing to communicate the action they took. The connection between what people said and what changed never gets made explicit, so employees conclude nothing happened at all. That, Ben argues, is the real driver of survey fatigue. It isn't that surveys are too long (though many are). It's "survey-in-action fatigue" — people stop responding because they never see their input go anywhere. Close the loop, and engagement follows. Key takeaways: the action gap is usually a communication gap; people stop responding when they never see results; closing the loop builds the trust a culture of evaluation depends on; and even the work you can't publicize still needs to be communicated. Connect with Dr. Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-granger-7147991b/ Grab his book, A Leader Worth Following: https://a.co/d/0bHdxAUB [https://a.co/d/0bHdxAUB] Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment [https://kirkpatrickmaturityassessment.scoreapp.com/] and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now [https://www.amazon.com/Building-Culture-Evaluation-Kirkpatrick-Performance/dp/1963392337/] Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective [https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/] and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/the-kirkpatrick-model/] Watch the Show on YouTube! [https://youtu.be/JTDf2EnwOyw] Submit your Questions/Stories: [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Scaling Evaluation: From Pockets of Excellence to Enterprise Capability

In this episode of The Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa sits down with Ted Kniker — co-founder of IMPACT Paradigm Associates, former Chief of Evaluation at the U.S. Department of State, and contributing author to Raising America: Building a More Perfect Union — to tackle one of the most pressing questions in evaluation today: how do you actually scale it across an entire organization? Ted brings hard-won perspective from 24 years in federal government and consulting across hundreds of organizations. The conversation gets real fast, covering why scaling evaluation is not the same as multiplying activity, why strong evaluation on one team almost never transfers to the enterprise, and what it actually takes to move from isolated pockets of excellence to true organizational capability. Key takeaways: • Scaling evaluation means creating alignment on shared outcomes — not adding more dashboards and reports. • Program evaluation can succeed on talent; enterprise evaluation has to succeed through systems. • The biggest red flag: when your organization is "information rich but decision poor." • Leaders signal whether evaluation is a compliance exercise, a political weapon, or a genuine learning function — and that signal determines whether it scales. • Standardize at the outcome/results level, not the measurement level; that's where the Kirkpatrick Model shines at enterprise scale. Connect with Ted on LinkedIn. To learn how the Kirkpatrick Model can help your organization build a true culture of evaluation, visit kirkpatrickpartners.com. Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment [https://kirkpatrickmaturityassessment.scoreapp.com/] and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now [https://www.amazon.com/Building-Culture-Evaluation-Kirkpatrick-Performance/dp/1963392337/] Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/kirkpatrick-learning-and-performance-center-of-excellence/] Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective [https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/] and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model [https://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/the-kirkpatrick-model/] Watch the Show on YouTube! [https://youtu.be/cnPbabSoHIk] Submit your Questions/Stories: [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link [https://forms.clickup.com/9011060482/f/8chkqr2-11311/2729WK2WKFBVYO5CZG] to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel