How Grad School Sparked Two Startups: Michael McGetrick's Story

How Grad School Sparked Two Startups: Michael McGetrick's Story

Graduate school is often described as a journey—full of challenges, opportunities, and transformative experiences. In this episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] sits down with Michael McGetrick [https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelmcgetrick/], the co-founder of Spark451, to explore what it really takes to succeed in graduate education and beyond. Whether you're at the start of your academic path, mid-way through your studies, or reflecting on your professional future, you'll find Michael's story both inspiring and relatable. A Story of Growth, Change, and Connecting the Dots From his early days as an English and Studio Art major at Brooklyn College, Michael McGetrick recognized the value of pairing creativity with analytical thinking. The transition from traditional design to the digital age led him to realize the profound business impact of his work—a realization that inspired him to pursue graduate studies. By earning a Master's in Management at NYU Tandon School of Engineering, he intentionally sought to bridge creativity, data, and technology, setting the stage for a career at the intersection of these worlds. But the learning didn't stop there. Motivated by a desire for further growth and transformation, Michael McGetrick returned to earn an MBA. He credits this decision—and the people he met along the way—as a catalyst for founding successful companies like Spark451 and Element451. For Michael McGetrick, graduate school was about more than coursework; it was about building connections, embracing new challenges, and transforming into a leader capable of navigating today's fast-changing technological landscape. Balancing Life, Work, and Study One of the episode's resonant themes is balance. Michael McGetrick candidly discusses the realities of juggling academics, a demanding career, and family responsibilities. Whether it was studying alongside his wife or burning the midnight oil after his children went to bed, he emphasizes the importance of commitment, open communication, and finding excitement in the field you choose. Advice for Prospective Graduate Students If you're contemplating graduate school, Michael McGetrick urges you to stay curious, engage deeply with your professors and peers, and draw inspiration from cutting-edge ideas in your discipline. Graduate education, he notes, can truly be a lever for personal and professional transformation. Ready to be inspired by Michael's full journey and advice? Listen to the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" and take the next step on your own graduate school adventure! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about graduate school and maybe it's the right time, maybe it's not. Maybe you've put in that first application, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school no matter where you are. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: It is truly a journey because there are things that you can do along the way to be able to prepare yourself, but also to find success in that journey that you'll be on. Where you start may not be where you end up in regards to the through line of graduate school and into the careers that you want to go into, but that's why this podcast is here. This podcast is here to help you to be able to start seeing things in different ways, for you to be able to learn new things and to be able to see how others have been able to find success in their own journeys. That's why every week I bring you someone new individuals that have had graduate school experiences that may be like yours, but maybe very, very different than yours as well. The ultimate goal here is that you have an opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, and to take something out of every episode, whether it's one thing, whether it's 10 things. I want you to be able to have some tools for your toolbox that'll help you to be able to find success sooner. Today we got another great guest. Michael McGetrick is with us today and Michael is the co founder of Spark451. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: It is a company that works in higher education, working with different universities in higher education. We'll talk a little bit about that today, too, about how his own graduate school led him to what he's doing today. But I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share some of his own journey with you. Michael, thanks so much for being here today. Michael McGetrick [00:02:07]: Chris, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is a topic that is very close to my heart. So excited for this conversation and to share some of my experience with your audience. So thank you so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm going to turn the clock back in time because I want to go way back. I want to go all the way back to when you were in that undergraduate space. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at Brooklyn College. You got a bachelor's degree in English and studio art and then you ended up leaving, going off and. But you continued your education in a number of different ways, whether it was through a formal graduate degree or other educational opportunities that allowed for you to be able to grow and learn. I wanted you to take me back to your days at Brooklyn College and talk to me about what lit that spark of continuing education and what made you decide when you first decided that you wanted to go and take that next step, take that next step in your education beyond the bachelor's that you wanted to do that. Michael McGetrick [00:03:10]: Well, it's a fairly interesting story. You've nailed correctly my history. I did go to Brooklyn College as a commuter. I majored in English. And did you Art with a focus on graphic design, which were two, I would say complimentary majors. To be able to communicate really well with the written word as well as using graphics and visuals. And that was like a nice complimentary skill set. A lot of, a lot of the world was changing at the time from manual paste ups. Michael McGetrick [00:03:41]: If anyone listening to this could have pictured and imagine there was. There was a time when any like communication that was put together was done with razor blades and glue and they would put paste up, you know, words and typography and paste up photos next to each other. Of course now it's done all with computer and it was transitioning literally at that moment when I was doing that work. So as much as the world is had multiple transition points, that was one of the big ones. And so with that developing skill, I was able to be walked into an ad agency in New York and to the studio by my professor, Professor Richard Navin. And he said, oh, this is McG, he's really good, you should hire him. And they hired me on the spot. And that was like a really nice thing for a professor to do for me and got me started in my career literally that way. Michael McGetrick [00:04:31]: So I spent quite a bit of time growing and learning. Advertising and technology was changing and certainly the web took off and websites were a big part of the work that I was doing. And I had this realization that being first focused on the craft design, storytelling, user experience. But over time I noticed something important, that the work I was doing wasn't just creative, it was really, really directly influencing Business outcomes, campaigns that sometimes would affect sales or if it was for a university, affect enrollments, websites that affected conversion rates, the sign decisions that impacted the revenue for the organizations that I was working with. And so that realization really shifted my perspective and I became less interested in just executing the work and more interested in understanding the systems that were underneath it, how the decisions were made, how these organizations were growing, and, you know, how data and technology, which were kind of like mysterious things to me but were becoming more tangible as I was using them, and how they shape the strategy of an organization. And that's really what led me to graduate school. To answer your question, I made this intentional decision to study management, but within an engineering school. I wanted to surround myself with a more quantitative, systems oriented approach to business because that's the kind of work I was doing, doing E commerce websites, selling things on the web, connecting to inventory systems. Michael McGetrick [00:05:59]: It wasn't just about leaving creativity behind, it was pairing it with something more analytical, with a lot of thinking and innovation behind it. And ultimately that combination really defines what I do today and my work in higher education, marketing, enrollment strategy. I'm constantly sitting on that intersection of creativity, data and technology. So whether it's building some digital campaigns, looking at student behavior, mapping out student journeys, or now working with AI driven engagement, you know, the goal is always the same, that I want creative thinking and measurable outcomes. I want those two things to intersect at all times. So in a lot of ways, graduate school gave me the tools to move upstream in the value chain, not just to create the work, but to help shape the strategy behind it. And that whole experience has been incredibly valuable, especially now as we go through another technological revolution where AI is reshaping how the institutions I work with connect with their customers, connect with their students. And I think that going forward from a graduate school perspective, there's going to be a lot of value for the listeners. Michael McGetrick [00:07:06]: Think about how they might want to bridge different interests of theirs. Creativity, technology, business thinking. You know, the people who can connect those things together in the AI age are the ones who are really going to be able to drive some impact. So I think it's an interesting story that's kind of my, my big picture of what drove me there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:22]: So talk to me a bit about. You're in New York, there's a lot of universities in the New York area. You ended up deciding to go to NYU Tandon School of Engineering, as you said, focusing on looking at management, but through a bit more of a technological lens. And I'm sure there were Other programs you probably could have chosen along the way. Talk to me about the process that you went through when you made that decision to go and get that first master's degree in management. What made you decide on nyu? Michael McGetrick [00:07:54]: Yeah, so I think I saw Steve Jobs give that commencement speech at Stanford about connecting the dots. And he basically laid out the story. It's, you know, he. He studied calligraphy at Reed College, which led him to value typography to be great on the Mac. And other things happened in his life that led to the path that led to Apple. And so I started thinking of, like, you know, hey, I've got sort of this. This technology movement that's happening, and I'm dealing bases and like, learning it on the fly and not really sure everything that's happening contextually with it and working with engineers and developers and business people. And so I said, you know, I feel like I'm on the technology side of business here. Michael McGetrick [00:08:38]: And so that's where I want to approach my graduate education. I think I need to be on the technology side of business. So I looked around and some schools have great business programs and some have great technology programs. And I said, I. I want a comb of both. And that's where a engineering school that had a management department was very attractive to me. And the fact that you can study with engineers was a big part of it. But I will say there was one thing that gave me pause, right? It's like, did I belong? I think a lot of your listeners might have that question, do I belong here? And also, I was coming back after being out of school for maybe eight years. Michael McGetrick [00:09:17]: And so I had left all my study habits behind. I had forgotten how to solve for X with math. And like, literally, I'm like, when started taking courses, had to, like, get some tutorials on algebra and. And lead everything leading up to calculus to reawaken my mind to remember the high school math I had taken. So those questions of will I belong in this organization? Will I belong in this school? They came up and, you know, ultimately I think, you know, you can find your place wherever you might wind up. You discover that you do belong if you put in the work and people appreciate that and. And a community gets formed. So I did wind up in the right place. Michael McGetrick [00:09:55]: And I think it worked out very well for me. And I apprec. Experience I had there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: And you talked about the fact that it was about eight years from the point in which you got your bachelor's. It went to getting that master's degree, and then almost another Another five years down the road from there, you decided to go back again to get another Master's degree, also from nyu. And not everybody decides to make that choice to continue getting another degree after they get two degrees. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that getting an MBA on top of your Ms. In was something that would help you to move further forward? Michael McGetrick [00:10:34]: Yeah, so I think that was sort of an existential moment. I was at a point in my career where I felt like I needed to take another leap. I was kind of doing the same thing for a while, running an agency and like kind of remaining in the same spot. It was going very well. But what was the next thing I wanted to hit career wise. So for me, I look to higher education for, as a transformation, a transformer, a catalyst. Right. I say, okay, like you want to become something new, you need to have different inputs. Michael McGetrick [00:11:08]: So for me, the MBA was an attractive program for a couple of reasons. First, it just so happened that if you had a Master's in management, they would transfer a certain number of credits into the MBA program, which was a very flexible, nice offering that they had. And second, it was a real kind of transformational time. Social media was taking off again, another technological revolution taking place. So there was good timing there, all the Web 2.0 stuff happening. So there was a convergence of factors. And then just the. There were a few professors there that I had become friendly with that were running the program and I just knew I wanted to be there with them. Michael McGetrick [00:11:50]: So all these things aligned to say, hey, this is a great idea. Let's, let's go into the MBA program at the NYU School of Engineering and see what happens. And if I were to continue, I'd say it was incredibly transformational. Once again, I happen to be in school with, with some really talented individuals in the program, people who are doing incredible things in their day to day work. It tended to be people who were a little bit older, like average age of 30 plus. And, and everybody was a successful professional in their own right. And so I got to meet and do projects with some great people and I took a course that was very transformational, a course in entrepreneurship with this professor named Bruce Niswander. And he was the head of the incubator at nyu and he was responsible for launching all sorts of companies. Michael McGetrick [00:12:42]: So he wasn't just a scholar, but he was an applied researcher, an applied professor, and he really practiced what he preached. So he had us create companies and come up with cash flow statements and he made it very tangible and real. And every part of the entrepreneurship process exposed to us from a person who practiced it. I happened to meet a classmate and become very close with him, a software engine engineer. His name was Artist Kadu. And we became really close and we had done a project together and we sort of, sort of say, hey, you know, we ever decided to start a company, we should do it together. And so that was sort of like the beginning of the idea of what eventually became Spark451, which is the company I founded with him and another NYU engineering grad named Steve Kersh. And it started in that classroom, you know, really from a vision of mutual ideas. Michael McGetrick [00:13:35]: Artis was a software engineer, and he had lots of ideas about higher education software, and I had ideas about higher education marketing. And Steve was higher education enrollment expert. And the three of us converged and formulated the idea to start Spark 51. And it was purely from that graduate experience that startup became a viable entity and led to another startup named element451, which is also an extremely successful company, and that artists eventually spun off and became the CEO of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:05]: So talk to me a little bit about what you learned in the program. You just talked about the connections that you made and how those connections led to two different companies that spun off from that education and those connections that you built in that education. And now that you look at the degrees that you did receive for yourself and you think back to what you learned in those degrees, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received prepared you for the work that you are still doing on a day to day basis? Michael McGetrick [00:14:39]: So I heard a great quote once that said, students learn from what they think and what they do, and only from what they think and what they do. And so the graduation I received, it had a lot of great subject matters that converged. But the thing that was transformational for me was I was purely liberal arts leading up to that points, right. I thought any problem could be solved by more messaging, more creativity, more marketing, more advertising. And I realized that there was so much to the equation by working in the field, but now actually sort of understanding it. And the course that really did it for me was managerial economics. The idea that you can model the future, right? And you can model any particular system in the world and create inputs that lead to outputs. And so you kind of start to connect the dots that any kind of business system has a whole series of inputs, and we learned mathematical equations from modeling them. Michael McGetrick [00:15:40]: And so it kind of brought all these disparate systems together and, and created this new shift in My mind and thinking that, yeah, you know, you can, you can manage these very large things by thinking about them from a system perspective, from a model perspective, and you can break them down into individual components and try to optimize them. And that became my, my way of thinking about managing organizations and, and managing systems and managing very complex projects that they're, you know, there are series of inputs and outputs and you can manage those inputs individually, you can delegate them individually, and that's the way large organizations work and trying to optimize them. All of the necessary data that has to come into those equations and all the statistical analysis that can be. Be applied across them and you learn these things across different classes in quantitative analysis and, and statistics. So like, I had this whole new tool set that was available to me to make me a much more effective professional. And these programs, I give them credit for transforming me, like literally changing who I was in the world to a new person. You can change someone or you can transform them. And I think the most valuable graduate programs create that sense of transformation that I. Michael McGetrick [00:17:02]: New person coming out of this. Maybe not a new person to the people that love you and your family and your, you know, your spouse, but certainly a new person as you show up in, in the world professionally. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: Just talked about your spouse or your family. And as you go through graduate school, there's a lot of balance that has to happen for you to be able to be successful as a student. But you're also wearing many hats as a professional, personally, with your family, friends, or others. Talk to me about balance for yourself. And how did you find that balance as you were going through graduate school that allowed for you to be able to find the success that you wanted in the experience that you went through? Michael McGetrick [00:17:44]: Yeah, well, I'm very glad you asked that. I have sort of a couple of different perspectives there. The first degree, I was a married man with no kids yet, so I felt like I was able to balance that by sitting at the table at night doing my reading with my wife next to me and going through the problems. Very large problem sets, sometimes operations management. You'd have like many, many pages of equations to solve and just like literally sharing with her what I was reading and going through and said Billy Joel song, tell her about it. That was sort of my, my approach to putting in time with her while actually doing studying, just making sure that she was involved in knowing what I was going through and what I was learning. And we'd have interesting conversations around it. And so it was fun. Michael McGetrick [00:18:31]: It's very fond Memory of those times in our first apart and going through large textbooks of manager economics and operations management. And then later when I got the MBA program, I had two children at the time and so that became even more difficult. But it was a matter of commitment to all the above and just you didn't want to do anything in half measures, right? So you want it to be continue your professional output, handle your work very well, your full time job, but also still be a great parent and still do excellent work in your MBA program and go all out. So that was my commitment to just go all out in all three. So cut back in a little sleep, Chris. But hit every project really hard. Fit, fit in everything I could. Putting in some late nights after the kids go to sleep to, to get it done. Michael McGetrick [00:19:16]: And just that commitment that you were building towards something that was leading toward a better future and better for these kids and for your spouse. So it was just a full commitment to it all and just, you know, maybe sharing that idea with your spouse that this is something you're committed to and you're going to give it your best on all fronts and if you fall on one of them, so be it. You'll make it on the next week and give it your best shot all the way through. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:41]: Earlier you'd mentioned that when you went to graduate school the first time, it had been eight years. It was five years after that when you went to get that second master's degree. And whenever I talk to individuals about graduate school, there is a transition. There's a transition going from one, one type of degree to another type of degree, going from bachelor's to master's. You went from a very different type of bachelor's degree into a master's degree in a completely different type of area. And there is a transition that you go through in from one degree to the next and understanding expectations and learning what you need to do to be able to be successful. Take me back and talk to me a little bit about those things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school and figuring out the, just that beginning part of it, but also as you were going through those graduate school experiences, what you had to do to again find success as you were going through that journey. Michael McGetrick [00:20:35]: Yeah, reflecting back on it, it was a fairly rough transition in the first semester, just getting back into reading and assignments and, and as I mentioned before, doing things mathematically, solving, solving math problems again. Ah, I thought, I put this aside and thought I got past all this, but here I am again doing it. So yeah, that was a fairly rough transition and certainly I needed to get back on the path. And the other was, it was a new vocabulary. And I, you know, whatever, whatever area of study you pursue, there's always going to be that set of vocabulary that you need to become comfortable with. And so I think the, the program did a great job by forcing us to make multiple presentations to the class. So you had to prepare, you had to deliver the presentation, use the words, talk about it, use the vocabulary. And so, so after that initial, rough start of getting in and dealing with this new set of vocabulary, and again, a lot of the things were engineering project management, for example, the engineers seem to have a much better handle on it than I did and, and was taught in a very engineering type way and, and taught in the context of construction and civil engineering projects, which were completely foreign to me. Michael McGetrick [00:21:54]: But you dig in, you ask questions, you work in teams, you engage your classmates. And, and I think that's another part of the graduate experience that enriches your experiences, just working with diverse teams and groups of people who have different experiences and share that so you can learn as much from your classmates as you can from your professors. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:15]: Speaking of professors, I know that you also are an adjunct faculty member at a couple different institutions and you've taught classes along the way. So you're interacting with students at different points in their own careers and talking to them about the journeys that they're on. Talk to me about the learning that you have there and the conversations that you've had with students. And what do you tell students now as they may come to you and talk to you about graduate school or future education for themselves? Michael McGetrick [00:22:44]: First of all, teaching as an adjunct was something that I started out doing to make some extra money to help with the mortgage payments, to help with the rent. And I've continued to do it to this day because it's become a, you know, a passion project. Right. Like I think most adjuncts at some of these professional schools are, you know, just do it because they love the experience, they love working with students, and they love the type of interaction and engagement that we get and sharing our professional experience with the next generation. And that's what it's become for me. So, you know, I think of graduate education as, on a couple of ways when I'm, when I'm advising students. Like, I think first that if you're going to go right after undergrad, like you've had all these different variety of courses you've had to take, you might have a core curriculum at your College, you may have your major, you may have a second major, you may have a minor. So you have all these really different types of courses along with your major. Michael McGetrick [00:23:39]: And as you become a senior from junior into senior year, you start really understanding that vocabulary. You're starting to really get into the groove of that particular field. And so you have this incredible momentum that you could carry directly into a graduate program that will lead to your success in that graduate program. So I think that's one advantage of going into a master's program right out of undergrad is like you're just ear in the groove, you'll get it done on, you'll accelerate your learning and you can just sort of truly become a master of that field. And that's one way of looking at it. The other is I did appreciate for business education, I think you really should hold off a couple years and work for a few years. If you're going to get a master's in business or an mba, I think it's much more valuable to go out and get a few years of experience and then really you'll appreciate and apply the learning much more rapidly if you have some business context, a few years of experience. So that's why the best MBA program programs require that. Michael McGetrick [00:24:36]: In addition, they want to, they want to have better starting salaries for their graduates, you know, self serving in that. But I think it's, it served the students well to just have that contextual business experience. And then finally I think graduate education can be that transformative experience to change you from one thing to another. And if you're looking for a change in career, if you're looking to enter a different field, if you felt like your undergraduate major was something that isn't going to connect you directly to a career, I think a master's program can be that catalyst to connect you to a whole new career. And there are so many programs that do that. So no matter what your undergraduate program is, if you feel you wasted your money, if you feel like you wasted your time, you can find a graduate program out there that will connect you into a lucrative, high paying career. The, the possibilities are infinite and out there. So definitely think about graduate education as that, that lever to trans that career switch, if you will. Michael McGetrick [00:25:35]: No doubt about it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:35]: And I guess finally as you look back at your own graduate experiences or graduate school experiences and you're talking to individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, in technology, in whatever area it might be, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would Help them find success sooner. Michael McGetrick [00:25:57]: When I think about my own experience, I feel like I was super excited about the graduate program I was going to undertake. And I had read a few business books that got me excited and sort of connected to the narrative of business. And so if I were going to give some quick advice to someone who was looking for launching their success, I would just say, you know, make sure you're up to speed on the latest thinking in your field. Make sure you're. Before you start the program, read some of the more interesting literature that is in your field. Tap into the, let's say, the strongest, most appreciated minds in your field and read their books, read their literature, read their articles to get you excited about what's happening in the field and what's going to learn. Because I think excitement and enthusiasm are the things that are going to lead to your success. And that is going to be something that sustains you when the work gets hard, when you have other obligations in life and it might be easy to take a semester off. Michael McGetrick [00:27:08]: So just try to maintain that excitement and enthusiasm about the program you're going to undertake. Second, your professors are there because they have a passion for what they do. They are dedicated to your success. They've devoted their lives and their careers to produce successful students, and ultimately that's what they want. While they give you hard work and hard assignments and hard projects to do, do they do ultimately want your success. So tap into their capabilities. Tap into them as a resource. They don't want you to fail. Michael McGetrick [00:27:40]: They want you to succeed in a big way. And furthermore, they can have incredible networks that can connect you to opportunities that you may not think are out there, whether professional connections, research, so on and so forth. And I would say, you know, getting involved at the graduate level, making, making friends, making connections. If you do an online program, there's still community to be had. If you're on campus, make sure you're taking the time to not just go to class and do the work, but to really engage with your fellow students and build connections that are going to be there for life as they have been for me. So get that sustaining interest and excitement about the program, tap into your professors and that and build your community in whatever form that takes, whether on campus or online. And I think you're going to have an amazing time in a graduate program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:33]: Well, Michael, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not over, your journey continues. But I truly appreciate you sharing all of this today and the things that you've learned along the way, and I wish you all the best. Michael McGetrick [00:28:47]: Thank you Chris. It's been a pleasure and good luck to everyone out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms [umflint.edu/graduateprograms] to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu [flintgradoffice@umflint.edu].

Resilience and Reinvention: Dr. Jeff Yackley's Graduate School Journey

Graduate school is a unique and often challenging journey, filled with twists, turns, and transformative experiences. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] sits down with Dr. Jeff Yackley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreyjyackley/], Assistant Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack the realities of graduate life and share powerful insights for current and aspiring grad students. From the outset, Dr. Jeff Yackley takes listeners on a personal journey that began with dreams of medical school and shifted through industry, eventually landing with passion in academia and research. Through these major transitions, Dr. Jeff Yackley underscores the importance of introspection—the ability to honestly assess one's motivations and strengths—and resiliency, the determination to keep moving forward even when plans change or setbacks occur. A striking moment comes as Dr. Jeff Yackley describes grappling with self-doubt, particularly when struggling to publish his first research paper. Despite repeated rejections, he found strength by relying on his support system—advisors, labmates, and trusted faculty—and by redefining success on his own terms. Classroom teaching became a powerful wellspring of confidence, "I was getting really great teaching evaluations, I was still getting positive feedback from students," he shares, highlighting that encouragement can come from unexpected places (10:51). Throughout the episode, the theme of connection is evident. Dr. Jeff Yackley credits the guidance of a faculty mentor for seeing potential in him and encouraging a path in research and teaching. He emphasizes the value of getting to know your professors, participating in lab groups, and building relationships with peers—essential for both professional growth and personal resilience. Time management, another common grad school struggle, is addressed with practical advice. Dr. Jeff Yackley shares strategies like breaking tasks into manageable pieces and avoiding perfectionism, admitting, "things don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough" (13:48). The episode closes with actionable tips for those considering graduate school: deepen your curiosity, go beyond assignment requirements, and embrace opportunities to connect with faculty and peers. Whether your interest is in computer science, business, or any other field, Dr. Jeff Yackley's journey is proof that success is shaped by resilience, self-reflection, and the relationships you build along the way. Interested in more insights like these? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and start building your own toolbox for graduate success! TRANSCRIPT Dr.Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to have a conversation with you, for you to be here, to learn more, and to be working toward that goal or those goals that you've set for yourself. You are truly on a journey. You're on a journey through that graduate education that you want to achieve. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Every person that goes to graduate school is on a little bit of a different path, is on a little bit of a different journey. But along the way, there are things that you can do to be able to be successful in that journey, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences. And from those experiences, my hope is that you'll take a few nuggets, you'll take some things out of every conversation to be able to add some tools to your toolbox and be able to do what you can, to be able to move yourself along and find that success sooner. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Jeff Yackley is with us today. And Dr. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:18]: Yackley is an assistant professor at the University of Michigan Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology. And I'm really excited to be able to have him chat with you to and for us to learn a little bit more about his own experience. Jeff, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:01:32]: Thanks, Chris. It's an honor to be here and to be able to share my experiences. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and for sharing this today. And I guess I want to go back in time a little bit because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, and then at some point during that journey, you made a decision. You made a decision that at some point that a along the way you were going to continue your education, and you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan and then went over to the University of Michigan, Dearborn, but then you continued on and you decided to continue on to get the master's and the doctorate, both from the University of Michigan, Dearborn as well. Bring me back to that early point where you were going through that undergraduate degree and you said, you know what? I'm not done. And I want to continue what was Going through your head. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:02:23]: Well, that's quite a story, Chris. I guess to start when I graduate, graduated from U of M, Ann Arbor in biochemistry, I had dreams of going to medical school, and I tried to force the route, went to a Caribbean school. And when I did go to a hospital, I found I didn't like dealing with all of the things that you would expect in a medical environment, all of the horrible pain and suffering that can occur in a hospital. And so I talked with the dean of the medical school, actually, and he had suggested if I had not wanted to go down this path, what would I pursue? And he was suggesting law school at the time. And I said I didn't think that was for me. And I had this early love of computers in high school that I never really got to explore. And so I looked for an opportunity to be able to pursue that. And so I went to the U of M Dearborn. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:03:05]: And while at Dearborn, I had made some connections with several faculty members, and I must have had three or four classes with one individual. And we really worked well together. And I ended up taking some leadership positions in a couple of the classes on some significant term projects. And when I graduated, I would say, in computer science, it's pretty common that a lot of students don't go to grad school. And I was no different. I wanted to jump right in and see what industry was like. I had done an internship, and after a short time in industry, I really wasn't feeling that the current situation I was in, how do I say it, they were using outdated technologies. And I really felt that if I didn't stay current, particularly with the growth in AI, that I was going to fall behind. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:03:48]: And I really wanted to jump careers again to go back from the current development environment I was working in to more of an automotive placement, since I figured being in Michigan, that was a really great career move. But when I started my master's degree and I really had this idea that I wanted to keep pursuing this graduate education, I was approached actually by that instructor for my undergraduate degree. And he had suggested that U of M Dearborn was now opening a PhD program and it might be something I'd be interested in. And he thought I had some qualifications that would make me well suited for it. We had worked previously together, and I really respected him and really enjoyed really exploring the topics in his class together through his instruction. And so I decided, yeah, let's make a third career switch and go from medicine to software development to now looking at more of an academic role and pursuing Research, and that's really where I entered PhD program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:45]: Now, at every level of education, there are transitions that you go through. And you went through a number of transitions. You went from undergrad to med school, from med school back to undergrad, from grad, from undergrad to master's and then to doctorate. And at every level, there's different expectations, there's different perspectives, there's different demands from faculty, different demands on reading, different demands on lots of different things. And you have to maneuver through those transitions. You have to figure out, what does it mean to find success as I jump from one to the next. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into those different graduate school experiences to find success? And what did you have to do throughout those different experiences, through the journey in those different programs, programs and experiences to sustain that success throughout the entirety? Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:05:41]: I really think there's been two things, which is really resiliency and also introspection. And I think before you make the move, you really have to decide, is this what you want? Is this what you are really looking for in terms of an experience and being honest with yourself about where you're at and what you want to do and what your current abilities are? Back when I was in medical school, it was a very hard decision to give up that career path and not keep pushing forward. And I must have spent several months just thinking about what I was going to do. And I would say anyone looking to make a major career decision like that should, of course, spend a large amount of time thinking about it. But then also there is that resiliency aspect where in your graduate education, things aren't always going to go to plan. You might struggle on a research project or getting a certain research paper published at a journal or conference. And all along that way, you have to keep pushing it forward. You have to keep willing to put in the hours to revise and adapt, listen to feedback that you get, and just keep pushing yourself ahead to be better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:39]: Yeah, you definitely have to do that. You have to go through that and figure that out for yourself many times to find out what it means to find that resiliency and pick yourself up as you go along. Because there will be times that. Where things are hard and you may have to push through, or you have to pivot and figure out, as you said in your medical school experience, that it wasn't the right fit. Now, you talked about the fact that a faculty member saw something in you and that they invested in you and encouraged you to think Think differently about what you were doing and what that end goal was. Talk to me about that. Because as you said, you entered your secondary graduate school experience in computer science thinking you wanted to do one thing, but then when you had that investment in that faculty member that was trying to encourage you, talk to me about that thought process for yourself. Because I'm sure that it wasn't an easy, aha, yes, this is exactly what I want to do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:39]: It probably had some introspection, as you mentioned, that you had to go through. So talk to me about that. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:07:44]: Yeah, so it was another big decision, really trying to decide did I want to stay in industry or basically commit to this more academic role. And along that way, I had thought a lot about what I really enjoyed during my undergraduate degree with this professor and how we explored different questions. And what I really enjoyed was kind of that process of discovery, being able to pursue a topic I was particularly passionate about and being encouraged to see where it goes and without necessarily being told how to do it or, you know, this is what you have to do. I was allowed to really explore and see what worked and what didn't. And that was something even in industry that I didn't get because you have to meet certain project deadlines, you have to publish products in order to the company to make money. And in the academic environment, though, the real drive is discovery and innovation. And I really got to have fun with that. I also had thought a lot about my experiences at an undergraduate where I volunteered a lot, where I taught to high schoolers students, high school students, and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts at U of M Dearborn, for they were on their surface to teach computer science topics, but to the university they were recruitment efforts, of course, but at these events, I really enjoyed getting to help people understand a topic that I was passionate about. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:08:59]: And so right after I entered this program, I started to teach right away because I was already familiar with U of M Dearborn's classes. They had a lot of trust in how successful I had been at my undergraduate level and really handed off my first lab that I had to teach. And pretty much from that moment, I was hooked because I found not only did I enjoy the research aspect, but I really enjoyed getting to teach. And I almost felt that that was more rewarding in the end. And so with this professor that I had, he really encouraged me to keep at discovering and practicing my teaching abilities as well. So I taught pretty much every semester that I had since I entered the PhD program. So almost for five years straight, I Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:38]: taught every semester Every grad student goes through a point in time where they say to themselves, am I good enough? Is this what I should be doing? And there's that feeling of imposter syndrome, feeling of inequity, feeling of as I said, I'm not good enough for this or I shouldn't be here, or should I be here. Did that ever happen to you? And I'm guessing it did at med school, but talk to me about that and how imposter syndrome or self doubt kind of reared its head for you as you were going through it and how did you handle it. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:10:08]: So for kind of those experiences, it was, I think most recently, and this one's probably a little bit easier to talk about, which is going to be my first paper in trying to transition from a PhD student to a PhD candidate with that qualification exam. In that case, I had really struggled to get my first paper published. My co advisor was really adamant that the work was sound and I didn't really believe him, mainly because every time we submitted to one of the top A level conferences, we would get negative feedback and they wouldn't believe that we had discovered this transfer learning between these two software engineering processes. And we had the data and I kept churning through it in my head. I kept rewriting the papers again and again for another conference and another conference and eventually we did get it published. But along that way I really questioned if this was for me, if I was doing things right or if I belonged here because I couldn't get acceptance at the professional level through that acceptance of your first conference paper. And it really hurt each time I get those really stinging rejections. And I suppose it really just took falling back on, is this what I wanted to do? And checking with the people that I trusted, my two advisors, particularly the one that I had at the undergraduate level, and talking with them and making sure that was I doing the right thing? Am I on a wrong base? Am I getting good results even if they're not being accepted? And along the way you really do doubt yourself. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:11:31]: And I think you need to find moments where things are, are good enough for you, where success in your own definitions rather than finding that exterior validation. And for me that really came from the classroom where even though at the research area or publication rate I wasn't getting that instant gratification, that instant success, but in the classroom I was so I was getting really great teaching evaluations, I was still getting positive feedback from students, seeing them succeed in the classroom and wanting to take other classes with me. And that really helped drive me to keep going ahead. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:04]: That goes back to that whole conversation of resiliency and having to push through and being able to know that you may get pushed down, that you got to get yourself back up and be able to kind of dust yourself off and keep moving forward. And every person, as you're going through graduate school, you have to wear a lot of hats. You got to balance things and you have to. Many graduate students are having to balance things like not only school, but work, family, personal responsibilities. While going through graduate school. How did you balance all of the hats that you had to wear as you were going through that process? Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:12:37]: I guess there's one answer which is I still haven't figured it out. Even as a professor, there's so many hats that we wear all the time. But I would say that I was very honored and grateful for the opportunity U of M. Dearborn saw in me. And they gave me a scholarship so I didn't actually have to to work. I had given up my role in industry to go full time on my PhD and I had that graduate student instructor role at 50%. So as long as I taught two courses a semester, they funded my education, which was really great. I know that not everyone can benefit from that and it is a tremendous honor. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:13:10]: So that relieved a lot of pressure. So I was really left with sort of a couple hats there. I had to contribute with research and I had to contribute with teaching, and I had to contribute to still performing some service, which was recruitment efforts, small talks with other grad students in the lab, mentorship, things like that. And balancing those three things was extremely difficult. As a student, you want to, of course, spend all of your time writing the best research that you can, and your advisors are constantly pushing you to complete the work, to get it out and published. And in the meantime, you have 30 to 60 students constantly asking for your attention as yourself still a student. And that required learning new ways to deal with time management, becoming really comfortable with things don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough. Which means that you want to deliver a high quality piece of work, but at the same time, if you spend too much of your effort refining it again and again and again until you think it's, it's 100% perfect, which nothing ever will be, then you've really lost all of that extra time you could have been spending on one of your other jobs. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:14:15]: And so I found through a computer science topic in Agile Project management, learning a little bit about Kanban boards and how to break up everything that I have to do into smaller tasks, basically write down how much time I think they'll take, move them through. Let's say today I'm going to take this route, this task. I'm going to work on it until it's completed and then once that's done, I can shift to another task, task and so on. And that really helped organize how I went about working and dealing with some of those issues of perfection. I mean, I just had to decide, was this task completed well enough that I could put it in the completed category. And kind of other little time management tricks that you learn over the years, how to deal with email and things like that really, really help with that needing to wear multiple hats issue. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:57]: And as you were going through graduate school, you talked about the fact that you had a lot of support as you were going through there. And you do develop relationships with faculties and other, with faculty and students. And I guess as you were going through that, were there any other campus resources or student organizations that helped to support your success? Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:15:17]: When I was an undergraduate at U of M, Dearborn, acm, the association for Computing Machinery, had a student chapter. And through there I made a lot of friends and connections and we worked together on quite a few projects. I mean, the friends that I met, we also took classes together. And so we would work on term projects well together and push forward there. But at the graduate level, I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, there wasn't time for, for extracurriculars or student organizations. I was so overwhelmed with needing to do the teaching and the research that I wasn't able to participate as much as I wanted to in other campus activities. So I would say that I really fell back mostly upon my own lab group and the postdocs that were in the lab, learning from them, learning from the other undergraduate students, or learning from the other graduate students in that lab group, being able to bounce ideas off them, have them bounce ideas off me, which would of course make me think about new avenues, really helped. And so I really. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:16:12]: Learning the other people in your lab group, learning other students who are working on similar things to you can really be beneficial. And not only improving your own work, but then also being able to find those resources to help you find that resiliency as well. So if you see other people struggling with the same issues that you are struggling with publications or struggling in a class or struggling with a certain concept and you struggle with it together, you suddenly feel that, yeah, this is normal, you belong. It's just normal to have to fight Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:43]: through this and I guess as you think about not only your own graduate school experiences, but also your experience as a faculty member. Now, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education, whether it's in computer science, physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, that would help them find success sooner? Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:17:01]: I would say make sure you're taking advantage of office hours and talking with your professor. Getting to know them is really critical for a great graduate education because once you've made connection, it's really easy to propose different research avenues or to be able to pursue different advanced topics through elective courses. I would say that a lot of things were what professors are looking for in terms of students are those that are curious, those that want to explore topics beyond the classroom. So going above and beyond, I think one of the best ways that you can do that is by taking a project in the class and not just meeting the requirements, but exceeding them. A couple of the students that I've worked with, with, I did never ask them to do some of the features that they added into some of these programs, but on their own initiative because they were curious and they wanted to do more and they wanted to show off. They went and learned a lot more than they had to outside of the classroom and ended up delivering just phenomenal work. So much so that I reached out and asked them if they were interested in doing research projects. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]: Well, Jeff, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and for talking to us about the ins and outs and ups and downs and kind of turns along the way that you went through to be able to get to where you are today. And I just want to say thank you and I wish you all the best. Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:18:16]: You're very welcome. And thank you again for having me. It was an honor to be able to talk with you for a little bit. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:20]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UMFlint.Edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

From Engineering to Physical Therapy: Max's Journey

For many students, the decision to pursue graduate school is not a straight path. It is a journey filled with uncertainty, exploration, self-discovery, and growth. In this episode of the podcast, listeners meet Maxwell Camara [https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxcamara11/], whose story perfectly captures what it means to embrace the process of finding your purpose. Max's journey did not begin in physical therapy [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physical-therapy-entry-level-dpt/]. In fact, he originally started in engineering before eventually transitioning into kinesiology and discovering a passion for helping others heal through movement and rehabilitation. One of the strongest themes throughout this conversation is that it is okay not to have everything figured out right away. Max openly shares that even after applying to physical therapy school, he still was not completely certain it was the right fit. It was not until he became immersed in clinical experiences and hands-on patient care that he truly found confidence in his path. Another key theme in the episode is the power of experiential learning. Max discusses how opportunities like the HEART Clinic [https://www.umflint.edu/heart/] at the University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physical-therapy-entry-level-dpt/] helped shape his professional identity. Through direct patient interaction, leadership experiences, mentoring younger students, and even participating in research projects involving wearable technology, he was able to connect classroom knowledge to real-world impact. His experiences demonstrate that graduate school is about far more than lectures and exams—it is about applying what you learn to make a difference in people's lives. The conversation also dives deeply into balance and resilience. Max speaks honestly about the challenges of transitioning from undergraduate coursework to the demands of doctoral-level education. He explains how treating graduate school like a full-time job, developing consistent routines, prioritizing exercise, and building a strong support system helped him maintain both academic success and personal well-being. His reflections on imposter syndrome are especially relatable, reminding listeners that self-doubt is common, but growth often happens when you push beyond your comfort zone. For anyone considering graduate school, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement. Max emphasizes the importance of getting involved early, talking to professionals in the field, exploring hands-on opportunities, and truly understanding the profession before committing to a graduate program. Whether you are considering physical therapy, another healthcare field, or graduate education in general, this episode is packed with authentic insights that will help you think more intentionally about your future. Max's story is a reminder that success is not always about having all the answers from the beginning—it is about being willing to learn, adapt, and keep moving forward. TRANSCRIPT 1 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:18.379 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to talk with you every week. 2 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:23.449 Christopher Lewis: on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. 3 00:00:23.750 --> 00:00:30.120 Christopher Lewis: Whether you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about, is grad school right for me? Or maybe you've… 4 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:37.740 Christopher Lewis: decided, yep, I'm applying, or maybe you did apply, it got accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are. 5 00:00:37.940 --> 00:00:40.050 Christopher Lewis: You are truly on a journey. 6 00:00:40.450 --> 00:00:47.830 Christopher Lewis: And as you're going through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on. 7 00:00:47.980 --> 00:01:02.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have this conversation with you, to walk with you, to provide you with some tips and tricks and things that you can put into that toolbox that you bring with you everywhere. 8 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:07.099 Christopher Lewis: That's why every week I also love being able to introduce you to new people. 9 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:20.450 Christopher Lewis: New people with different experiences that have all gone through what you're going through, and can provide you with some perspective, some things for you to think about, and maybe some things to implement for yourself. 10 00:01:21.410 --> 00:01:23.589 Christopher Lewis: Today we've got another great guest. 11 00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:26.190 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. 12 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.190 Christopher Lewis: Is it Max or Maxwell? Which would… what do you go by? 13 00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:30.359 Maxwell Camara: Max is good. 14 00:01:32.650 --> 00:01:36.910 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Max Kamara is with us today. 15 00:01:37.130 --> 00:01:39.230 Christopher Lewis: Max is a… 16 00:01:40.210 --> 00:01:58.709 Christopher Lewis: Max is just finishing up his second year in the physical therapy program at the University of Michigan, Flint, working into his third year, gonna be finishing off this year. I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about the journey that he's been on, and to share that with you. Max, thanks so much for being here today. 17 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:00.220 Maxwell Camara: Thank you for having me. 18 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:13.849 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things that I love doing as we start these conversations is really turning the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, and at some point in that journey. 19 00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:23.960 Christopher Lewis: you made the decision. You made the decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to continue your education, and you wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring it back to that point, and what was going through your head? 20 00:02:24.330 --> 00:02:25.300 Maxwell Camara: Sure. 21 00:02:25.730 --> 00:02:36.020 Maxwell Camara: So actually, before I was a student at U of M Ann Arbor, I was a student at the University of Colorado my freshman year, and I studied engineering. 22 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:40.730 Maxwell Camara: So, physical therapy was definitely not on the radar for quite some time. 23 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:59.470 Maxwell Camara: So I think for me deciding to go to physical therapy school, a graduate school, it really was more of a slow burn, more of a process, and that really started once I was in Ann Arbor. So, once COVID had happened in 2020, I moved back to Michigan, so I went back to Michigan. 24 00:02:59.660 --> 00:03:10.739 Maxwell Camara: to finish out my school, I went into kinesiology knowing that I really enjoyed exercise, I had some good mentors, that taught me about the great things the body can do on its own to heal. 25 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:18.059 Maxwell Camara: So… Physical therapy was one of those options, so I ended up joining the pre-PT club. 26 00:03:18.690 --> 00:03:31.689 Maxwell Camara: I was in that for a year, and then I became the service member, so I talked with a lot of the employers around the area, a lot of PTs, in Michigan, and then I eventually became the president of that club. 27 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:33.909 Maxwell Camara: Interestingly, I would say. 28 00:03:34.190 --> 00:03:43.090 Maxwell Camara: even at that point, I was still pretty unsure if physical therapy was something I wanted to do, especially after finding more and more about it, so… 29 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:52.019 Maxwell Camara: I think as we go through the conversation, maybe we can talk more about, you know, who should choose graduate school, maybe PT school specifically. 30 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:58.700 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up choosing it because I really love the exercise component, I wanted more out of, 31 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:08.760 Maxwell Camara: my knowledge base, rather than just being, you know, a personal trainer or an exercise physiologist, I really saw value in helping people heal from these really 32 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:12.189 Maxwell Camara: Bad, severe conditions, 33 00:04:12.510 --> 00:04:18.640 Maxwell Camara: And then I end up applying, and here we are today, almost done graduating in a couple months here, so… 34 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:26.800 Christopher Lewis: Did I… did I mess up? Are you already in your third year? Didn't I said you were finishing your second? 35 00:04:27.590 --> 00:04:29.150 Maxwell Camara: I am in my third year, yes. 36 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:30.570 Maxwell Camara: Okay. 37 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:38.719 Christopher Lewis: So, I'm gonna… I'm gonna have to go back and post, and I'll fix that. So, let me just… I'm gonna say something right now that I'm going to then… 38 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:40.779 Christopher Lewis: put back. So… 39 00:04:42.210 --> 00:04:55.559 Christopher Lewis: Max is in his third year of physical therapy school at the University of Michigan, Flint, almost there, almost at the end, and gonna be graduating before we know it, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and to have him share his journey with you. 40 00:04:58.050 --> 00:05:08.420 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things you just said was that you didn't know. You didn't know whether or not physical therapy was really the right place for you. You started in engineering, very different path. 41 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.890 Christopher Lewis: Very different types of courses that you have to take, different way of thinking in that regard as well. 42 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.889 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about… journey for yourself. And… 43 00:05:20.330 --> 00:05:26.009 Christopher Lewis: You mentioned the fact that you really liked some of the sports aspect and the healing aspects. 44 00:05:26.190 --> 00:05:30.530 Christopher Lewis: But what was the tipping point for you, where you said to yourself, Yep. 45 00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:33.950 Christopher Lewis: I'm going to grad school, I'm doing physical therapy, versus… 46 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:38.199 Christopher Lewis: I'm gonna finish at the Bachelor's, and I'm gonna go and do something else. 47 00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:45.749 Maxwell Camara: I think the tipping point… I decided that if I was gonna do it. 48 00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:47.390 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna do it now. 49 00:05:47.840 --> 00:05:56.610 Maxwell Camara: And I still, at that point, wasn't sure if it was the right decision. I wouldn't say I knew it was the right decision until probably about… 50 00:05:56.870 --> 00:06:08.189 Maxwell Camara: I would say, like, a year ago, so my second year of physical therapy school, once I had really started to get more involved in our pro bono clinic and finished my first clinical, was when I really knew 51 00:06:08.570 --> 00:06:09.460 Maxwell Camara: So… 52 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:20.379 Maxwell Camara: that tipping point, I don't… I wouldn't say it was necessarily, you know, I knew in undergrad that I was gonna be a physical therapist. I knew that I was gonna give it a try and, you know. 53 00:06:21.130 --> 00:06:24.709 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna give it a try and be my best at it, no matter what I did. 54 00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:31.480 Maxwell Camara: But I knew I had this theoretical framework of what PT could, like, look like for me. 55 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:43.250 Maxwell Camara: I had really dove into what PT was through the club, talking to a bunch of different schools and therapists, so I had a pretty good idea of what PT could be. 56 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:47.350 Maxwell Camara: But I still wouldn't say I was… I'm 100% sure. 57 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.790 Maxwell Camara: that PT was the right direction until I was actually in PT school, like, a couple years later. 58 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:01.049 Christopher Lewis: Now, I know that as you did decide to apply to graduate school. 59 00:07:01.260 --> 00:07:04.930 Christopher Lewis: I'm sure that you went through your own process of trying to figure out 60 00:07:05.210 --> 00:07:19.070 Christopher Lewis: what's the right program, what's the right fit, and where do I want to be? And with physical therapy being as competitive as it is, I'm sure you applied to numerous schools to be able to cover your bases and try to determine 61 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:21.479 Christopher Lewis: Ultimately, where you would end up. 62 00:07:22.030 --> 00:07:25.240 Christopher Lewis: Now, you ended up coming to the University of Michigan, Flint. 63 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:36.910 Christopher Lewis: And I guess I want to go back to that point. Talk to me about that final decision process for yourself, and how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you? 64 00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:44.460 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so when I was applying, I applied to, I think, 6 schools, U of M Flint being one of them. 65 00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:55.709 Maxwell Camara: Obviously I was biased towards U of M Flint, because it had the U of M name. But I also applied to, I believe, 3 or 4 other schools in Michigan, and then 2 out of state. 66 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:59.359 Maxwell Camara: So… I think that gave me more… 67 00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:12.479 Maxwell Camara: options to consider, as I was applying and just receiving, decisions through, I think it was December, so you apply around July, August, then you usually know where you're going by December. 68 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:17.400 Maxwell Camara: So… What I was really looking for was a place where I… 69 00:08:17.500 --> 00:08:20.049 Maxwell Camara: I enjoyed the people that were there. 70 00:08:20.210 --> 00:08:22.629 Maxwell Camara: And then I thought I could… 71 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:27.060 Maxwell Camara: Really thrive in terms of… there were a lot of hands-on opportunities. 72 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:44.759 Maxwell Camara: So U of M Flint checked off both those boxes, and when I received the decision, they gave me a call. It was actually one of my mentors, that I ended up working with through my second and third year, and she… she kind of sealed the deal. I didn't receive any sort of call or, like, any sort of… 73 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:50.310 Maxwell Camara: I would say personalized message from any other school. So that kind of really is what sold me. 74 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:53.440 Maxwell Camara: And then I also was able to visit, 75 00:08:53.630 --> 00:09:05.429 Maxwell Camara: with one of the students that was there at the time, and she kind of took me through the school, introduced me to everybody, I got to meet a lot of the students and actually talk to them. So I think that's what really… 76 00:09:05.550 --> 00:09:07.350 Maxwell Camara: Made the decision easier. 77 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:13.489 Maxwell Camara: And then I also considered other things, like the location, so I could live at home and save money. 78 00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:18.170 Maxwell Camara: I considered things like the cost. It was one of the cheapest in the state. 79 00:09:18.400 --> 00:09:22.839 Maxwell Camara: And then I could also be more hands-on, so they had a really robust 80 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:34.250 Maxwell Camara: clinical experience within the school that you could work at every Friday, which is something that I end up really taking advantage of, and I think has helped me be very successful in PT school. 81 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:48.289 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the hands-on experience, and you were talking about… we have a clinic called HEART, for those of you that don't know, and it is a pro bono clinic that is run by students, with faculty. 82 00:09:48.420 --> 00:10:00.110 Christopher Lewis: being there as well. Talk to me about that experience for yourself, and why was it so important for you to get involved with it, and why did you continue to stay involved with it throughout your experience at the University of Michigan-Flint? 83 00:10:00.770 --> 00:10:14.420 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I think a lot of students might take… take it for granted, that we have this clinic that has around 40 patients every week that we treat, and that's every week, so a lot of schools, I think, around half. 84 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:21.510 Maxwell Camara: have some sort of clinic that they can work with, but it's not nearly as robust, it's not… it's not weekly, usually. 85 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:37.939 Maxwell Camara: So we really have this cool opportunity to work with patients. And I really got involved, I think it was my first couple weeks, in something called Move More Walking. I just kind of went as that, you know, new student trying to figure out what was happening. A lot was happening, there's a lot of patients, there's paperwork, there's… 86 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:49.109 Maxwell Camara: you know, you're working in groups with these patients with hard conditions to deal with, so most of them had strokes or traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, and you're trying to figure out what's happening, how can I even help? 87 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:58.969 Maxwell Camara: So, eventually by… I believe it was my second or third semester, I talked to Dr. Amy York about potentially becoming a leader of that clinic. 88 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:00.650 Maxwell Camara: So I went… 89 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:07.519 Maxwell Camara: most of the weeks to… to that class to help these patients out. I really got close to a couple of them. 90 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:11.540 Maxwell Camara: So I decided to take on more of that leadership position. 91 00:11:11.770 --> 00:11:20.599 Maxwell Camara: So I worked with two other guys in my class to help lead this part of the clinic, and we… we really got to dive deep into how the… 92 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:34.590 Maxwell Camara: the treatment works, so how do we standardize the treatment for every patient with new students coming in? So whether it's first year or second years, how can we maximize both the student experience and the patient experience? So that was something we worked on. 93 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:45.930 Maxwell Camara: We also worked on a documentation system that was really easy to use, but also it was helpful in determining what was good for the following week for all the new students. 94 00:11:46.030 --> 00:11:48.809 Maxwell Camara: And then we also worked on research projects, so… 95 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:50.670 Maxwell Camara: one of the ones that I… 96 00:11:50.880 --> 00:12:09.740 Maxwell Camara: lead was called Active Hearts, so we gave all of our stroke patients active, wearable technology, so things like Fitbits or Apple Watches they could wear outside of the clinic. So we could really track and maximize our outcomes with our patients trying to get better. 97 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:18.689 Maxwell Camara: So, a lot of research I was doing, something I never considered doing, something I probably would have said I didn't want to do at the beginning of PT school. 98 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:36.400 Maxwell Camara: But it really opened a lot of doors in terms of meeting people, working on these really cool projects, traveling, presenting, working and mentoring the younger students. And I think that's what really has helped me grow into the PT that I'll become in, like, 14 weeks from now. 99 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:58.650 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, I know that as you go into graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, there's a transition that you make. There's a transition from undergrad and the way that you're taught in your undergraduate experience, and what you experience as a student in graduate school. And you've been able to find success in that journey. 100 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:06.359 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… The things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school. 101 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:14.410 Christopher Lewis: That helped you find success. But also, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey? 102 00:13:15.660 --> 00:13:25.059 Maxwell Camara: I would say it's definitely a transition from undergrad to graduate school, especially as you're trying to get a doctoral degree. And in undergrad, I was able to… 103 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:29.869 Maxwell Camara: Kind of passed by my classes studying, you know, in the last two weeks before an exam. 104 00:13:30.010 --> 00:13:31.960 Maxwell Camara: That does not work in PT school. 105 00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:41.090 Maxwell Camara: So I definitely had to transition into thinking more, you know, it's something you have to do weekly, almost every day, reviewing your stuff. 106 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.450 Maxwell Camara: Trying to be ready for the next day. 107 00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:45.410 Maxwell Camara: So, in terms of… 108 00:13:46.010 --> 00:13:52.160 Maxwell Camara: either studying, or homework or projects, I said I would treat it more as a full-time job. 109 00:13:52.350 --> 00:14:00.510 Maxwell Camara: So 40 hours a week, so around half that would be classes, and then the other half would be preparing for the next day, preparing for the week. 110 00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:10.680 Maxwell Camara: doing homework, working on projects, and then once I was at that, you know, 40-ish hours a week, I would… I gave myself other time to do other things, so… 111 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:16.320 Maxwell Camara: Exercising, getting outside, just doing anything else that I enjoyed. 112 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:23.300 Maxwell Camara: So, still finding that balance, but really making sure I put in the specific time to review stuff. 113 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:34.650 Maxwell Camara: In different ways, too, so I would do a lot of whiteboarding in grad school, something I never did in undergrad. So things like drawing out the big ideas, so what's your diagnosis? What sort of… 114 00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:48.320 Maxwell Camara: Signs and symptoms are you going to see? What sort of tests are you using? What's the intervention look like? What does the actual person look like? Rather than just memorizing certain facts like you might do in a lot of your classes in undergrad. 115 00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:54.759 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the fact that 116 00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:59.050 Christopher Lewis: There's a lot of hats that you wear when you're in graduate school. 117 00:14:59.420 --> 00:15:16.610 Christopher Lewis: Not only are you a student, you're a friend, you're a family member, you are… as I said, you're wearing lots of hats. And as you said earlier, one of the things that you thought of when you thought of looking… working… or when you thought of going to the University of Michigan-Flint was that you could live at home. 118 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:21.020 Christopher Lewis: And then there's that draw from your family of, hey, come on back. 119 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:37.639 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about balance, and how did you find that balance for yourself? What did you have to do to find that balance for yourself, where you were balancing school, work, family, or other personal responsibilities while you were going through this graduate school experience? 120 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:56.290 Maxwell Camara: Balance is hard. It took me a while to figure it out. I would say maybe even two to three semesters in wasn't until I really figured out how to have that balance. So I think it's okay to not really understand, you know, where… how to do it, how to balance jobs and family and school. 121 00:15:56.390 --> 00:16:01.129 Maxwell Camara: But the way I found it was really framing it as that 40-hour work week. 122 00:16:01.310 --> 00:16:10.009 Maxwell Camara: And then making sure I had the routine in place. So something I knew I wanted to always have through PT school was a consistent exercise schedule. 123 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:11.810 Maxwell Camara: So, going to the gym. 124 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:20.950 Maxwell Camara: two to four times a week, and not making any excuses not to go. So that really helps to, you know, reset my mind, and be ready for… 125 00:16:21.060 --> 00:16:23.360 Maxwell Camara: The other hours that I had to put in that day. 126 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:31.409 Maxwell Camara: So just having that routine helped shape that balance. Also having a good support system, so I was able to find some great 127 00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:39.740 Maxwell Camara: friends, and I have good family that were able to support me in terms of, you know, if I'm struggling, I can ask them questions. If they're struggling, I can help them. 128 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:41.169 Maxwell Camara: I also… 129 00:16:41.540 --> 00:16:49.479 Maxwell Camara: you know, can talk to people about other things going on. So just making sure I had that community in place, and then still having… 130 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:56.190 Maxwell Camara: my routine, and then once I had that set, I could build on top of that as I went through school, is what really… 131 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:58.430 Maxwell Camara: Made it a little bit easier. 132 00:17:00.410 --> 00:17:08.460 Christopher Lewis: Now, I talk to graduate students all the time, and as they typically go into graduate school, they're… 133 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:17.739 Christopher Lewis: Many times is that feeling of imposter syndrome that creeps in, that self-doubt that rears its head. 134 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:23.389 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about how that impacted you in graduate school, and how did you handle it? 135 00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:35.980 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, I think it's one of those tough subjects where we work really hard to be, you know, the best we can at this job, but there's still that doubt of if we're actually helping anybody. 136 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:41.729 Maxwell Camara: So, I think… I'm lucky, I really love what I do. 137 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.159 Maxwell Camara: Because I've been able to see the change that it makes for people, just as a student. 138 00:17:47.330 --> 00:17:48.320 Maxwell Camara: So… 139 00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:58.239 Maxwell Camara: I'd really encourage anybody going into grad school or PT school to take advantage of these real opportunities in their field. So, for me, it was more… 140 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:03.010 Maxwell Camara: Of those heart opportunities, so doing the research, being in the clinic, 141 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:07.600 Maxwell Camara: That's what really helped me see the big changes for people. 142 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:13.300 Maxwell Camara: So, being able to see the change, plus really putting in the hard work, and really… 143 00:18:13.770 --> 00:18:17.150 Maxwell Camara: Going beyond what was expected of me was… 144 00:18:17.340 --> 00:18:21.390 Maxwell Camara: Kind of helped me get past that idea of imposter syndrome. 145 00:18:21.790 --> 00:18:26.360 Maxwell Camara: You know what, even in the clinic today, as I'm still… 146 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:33.169 Maxwell Camara: trying to graduate, I still have some of those days where it's, you know, starts to creep in and I feel like I'm not really helping them. 147 00:18:33.580 --> 00:18:35.220 Maxwell Camara: And I think the best way that… 148 00:18:35.370 --> 00:18:38.920 Maxwell Camara: I've been able to get over that, is that things just take time. 149 00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:46.060 Maxwell Camara: We're only seeing these patients for a really small percentage of their entire week, so there's other things happening. 150 00:18:46.340 --> 00:18:50.930 Maxwell Camara: But if you give it patience and time, and you put in the, you know, your best effort. 151 00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:56.920 Maxwell Camara: A lot of the time, you're gonna see these really cool changes, and they're gonna come at the least expected time. 152 00:18:57.360 --> 00:18:59.950 Maxwell Camara: So I think that's what has really helped me with 153 00:19:00.350 --> 00:19:04.239 Maxwell Camara: imposter syndrome and feel like I just can't, or I wouldn't be able to do it. 154 00:19:07.550 --> 00:19:13.149 Christopher Lewis: And one of the things that I know when you go through a program like physical therapy is one of the 155 00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:21.059 Christopher Lewis: One of the things that really allows for you to be able to take everything that you're learning and putting it into 156 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.250 Christopher Lewis: Reality is going out on those clinicals. 157 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.190 Christopher Lewis: And I know you're currently in clinicals right now, in your third year. 158 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:32.600 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… the… 159 00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:40.479 Christopher Lewis: What those clinicals have done for you to be able to help you to see the future that you see for yourself in this profession? 160 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:50.430 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I was pretty intentional with the choices I made for my clinicals. The first one I did was in the hospital. 161 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:53.949 Maxwell Camara: And I'll admit, it wasn't something I was super interested in. 162 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:59.050 Maxwell Camara: Because I know it's a little bit more of a challenger, or a challenging setting. 163 00:19:59.260 --> 00:20:09.950 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up enjoying it more than I thought I would. So just being able to see PT work in all these different settings and different populations is very… it's very cool to see. 164 00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:14.430 Maxwell Camara: So I encourage any graduate student to really 165 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:22.510 Maxwell Camara: you know, branch out. So I enjoy orthopedic settings, but I also wanted to see every other setting while I was a student. 166 00:20:22.620 --> 00:20:27.880 Maxwell Camara: to get the best mentoring I could, in this short 9-month period. 167 00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:36.070 Maxwell Camara: So I had the hospital setting, I'm at one now that's more of an outpatient neuro setting, then I have one that's a sports setting. 168 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:38.930 Maxwell Camara: And that was set up so that I could keep building. 169 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.820 Maxwell Camara: Off of what… off of the last one. 170 00:20:42.340 --> 00:20:50.710 Maxwell Camara: And really challenged myself with different populations and things that I saw, even if it wasn't something I was necessarily super interested in. 171 00:20:51.150 --> 00:20:55.910 Maxwell Camara: So, setting yourself up for success. So, I did an interview for my last one. 172 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.689 Maxwell Camara: I was able to talk to faculty, And figure out which… 173 00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:14.079 Maxwell Camara: clinicals they thought were… might be better than others, maybe if they had known some of the clinical instructors. So just getting an idea of what would… might work for me before I actually selected these clinicals was very helpful. 174 00:21:14.540 --> 00:21:16.390 Maxwell Camara: And then in terms of after. 175 00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:18.580 Maxwell Camara: It just gives you a really big… 176 00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:26.879 Maxwell Camara: You know, more experience to draw from as you're either getting a job, looking for jobs, or maybe, you know, starting something on your own. 177 00:21:27.030 --> 00:21:33.230 Maxwell Camara: So, trying the thing, and if you don't like it, move on, but maybe you do like it, and it's just another option for you. 178 00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:45.209 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, or business, or something completely different. 179 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:48.539 Christopher Lewis: And you think back to the experience that you've had. 180 00:21:49.070 --> 00:21:54.890 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? 181 00:21:58.060 --> 00:22:02.879 Maxwell Camara: That's a tough one, because graduate school's becoming more expensive. 182 00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:07.539 Maxwell Camara: And a lot of the jobs maybe aren't necessarily matching that with salary. 183 00:22:07.970 --> 00:22:15.380 Maxwell Camara: So I would say really get involved in undergrad with… if you're thinking about grad school in that, you know, specific field. 184 00:22:15.540 --> 00:22:21.519 Maxwell Camara: So for me, PT, I would join the pre-PT club and learn as much as you can through that club. 185 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:29.809 Maxwell Camara: Maybe if you're thinking of other professions, join the PA club, join the, you know, any sort of medical club, so if you're thinking about med school. 186 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.359 Maxwell Camara: So just learn about as many things as you can while you're an undergrad. 187 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:41.790 Maxwell Camara: shadow all these different settings before you go into PT school, make sure it's something that you think you'd really thrive in before you sign up for it. 188 00:22:42.060 --> 00:22:56.379 Maxwell Camara: And talk to the people that are actually doing it. So, maybe that's a student, maybe that's the faculty, and just see, is this, you know, something I would enjoy? Are the students enjoying what they're doing? Is it, you know, could I see myself here in 2 years? 189 00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:14.989 Christopher Lewis: Well, Max, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, and I'm really looking forward to seeing you as you get ready to finish up here, and the future that it holds for you as well, and I truly wish you all the best. 190 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.509 Maxwell Camara: Great, thanks for having me.

From Research to Reality: Finding Success in Graduate School

*]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:b97d1e6a-7417-433c-8520-25a826ef893b-0" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:b97d1e6a-7417-433c-8520-25a826ef893b-0" data-testid= "conversation-turn-2" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> In this episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, listeners are taken on an honest and insightful journey through the graduate school experience with Steve Wilson [https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-wilson-29a623b5/]. From the very beginning of the conversation, one theme stands out clearly: graduate school is not simply about earning another degree—it is about growth, discovery, and learning how to navigate uncertainty. Steve shares how a summer undergraduate research opportunity completely changed the direction of his life. What began as a simple invitation from a professor turned into a passion for research and ultimately led him toward a PhD. His story highlights something many students may not realize: graduate education can open doors that once felt impossible, especially when students learn about opportunities like fully funded doctoral programs. Steve encourages students to think deeply about why they want to pursue graduate school and what they hope to gain from the experience. Rather than simply "checking the box" for another credential, he emphasizes taking ownership of the journey—seeking out projects, building relationships, exploring research opportunities, and connecting classroom learning to long-term career goals. Steve openly reflects on the challenges of adapting from undergraduate coursework to the expectations of doctoral-level research. He speaks honestly about moments of uncertainty, the value of mentorship, and how important it was to build friendships and maintain personal connections outside of academia. His reflections remind listeners that success in graduate school is not just about intelligence or hard work; it is also about community, self-awareness, and resilience. One especially powerful takeaway from the episode is the reminder that preparation matters. Steve discusses how reading research papers, learning trends within a field, and connecting with others already in graduate programs can help students feel more confident before they even step into their first class. Whether you are just beginning to think about graduate school, currently applying, or already deep into your academic journey, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement that can help you move forward with confidence. Steve's story is relatable, thoughtful, and filled with wisdom for anyone considering what comes next in their educational and professional path. If you are looking for inspiration, real-world advice, and an honest look at graduate education, this is an episode you will not want to miss. TRANSCRIPT WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.260 --> 00:00:19.929 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. 2 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:33.039 Christopher Lewis: Whether you are at the very beginning, and you're starting to think about, well, maybe I want to do this grad school thing, or maybe you've applied, and you're waiting for that answer, or you've already gotten your answer, and you're accepted, and you're going to be starting classes soon. 3 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:43.290 Christopher Lewis: Or, maybe you're in a graduate program, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. There are things that you can do today, right now. 4 00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:50.749 Christopher Lewis: That you can work on to help you to be able to find success in this graduate school journey. 5 00:00:50.830 --> 00:01:05.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have the opportunity to be able to work with you, to introduce you to people that have gone before you, gone to graduate school, found success in their own ways. 6 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:10.280 Christopher Lewis: And then you can learn from what they learned along the way as well. 7 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:31.270 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Dr. Steve Wilson is with us today, and Dr. Wilson is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and for him to talk a little bit more about his own experience, and to introduce him to you. 8 00:01:31.650 --> 00:01:33.569 Christopher Lewis: Steve, thanks so much for being here today. 9 00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:35.429 Steve Wilson: Yeah, thanks for having me. 10 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:52.029 Christopher Lewis: You know, I'm really excited to be able to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations really turning the clock back in time, because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Taylor, at Taylor University, and when you were there. 11 00:01:52.030 --> 00:01:57.120 Christopher Lewis: there was a point. There was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. 12 00:01:57.270 --> 00:01:58.669 Christopher Lewis: I want to continue. 13 00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:04.869 Christopher Lewis: Bring me back to that point, and what was going through your head as you made that decision for yourself? 14 00:02:06.410 --> 00:02:14.000 Steve Wilson: Yeah, great question. So I think it was a series of events that led me there. 15 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:19.329 Steve Wilson: which started with research. I mean, that's, I think, what led me to this whole thing. 16 00:02:19.570 --> 00:02:23.810 Steve Wilson: I had a great opportunity to be involved in a summer research project. 17 00:02:23.930 --> 00:02:25.669 Steve Wilson: while I was working at Taylor. 18 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:33.089 Steve Wilson: We were kind of working with a company there on some things, and, you know, it was just, one of my professors. 19 00:02:33.730 --> 00:02:40.900 Steve Wilson: at some point in the semester, said, hey, Steve, are you working on anything this summer? We've got this interesting research project, you might be a good fit. 20 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:49.669 Steve Wilson: And I thought it sounded like something fun to try, so I did that, and throughout that summer, I kind of 21 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:52.199 Steve Wilson: Fell in love with research, you could say. 22 00:02:54.250 --> 00:03:00.219 Steve Wilson: I just really loved the idea of… in contrast to what my coursework felt like, where it was more… 23 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:13.840 Steve Wilson: We know the answer, we know you can get here, let's figure out how to do that. Research was, we don't really know what the answer is. We don't know if there is an answer, but we're gonna try this because we think this is an important thing to work on. 24 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:20.080 Steve Wilson: And I really loved working on those kind of projects, And… 25 00:03:20.220 --> 00:03:25.710 Steve Wilson: I think that went well. And I started asking more about how 26 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:29.539 Steve Wilson: I could get more involved in research, and… 27 00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:36.340 Steve Wilson: my professor said, why did… did you think about going to grad school? Maybe you could do a PhD, and I said. 28 00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:41.810 Steve Wilson: I don't have any more money. You know, undergrad is kind of the end of the line for me, I need to go get a job. 29 00:03:42.250 --> 00:03:49.179 Steve Wilson: And that's when I learned the thing I think everyone should know, you know, especially in STEM, 30 00:03:49.690 --> 00:04:03.340 Steve Wilson: almost any PhD program that you'll go to is fully funded, which means maybe you're not making as much as you would for an industry job, but tuition's covered, health insurance is covered, and you have a stipend that's, you know, enough to live off of. 31 00:04:03.730 --> 00:04:12.610 Steve Wilson: And so that knowledge itself kind of flipped everything for me, where I realized it was a… financially, it was an option in the first place. And I wouldn't have known, I'd… 32 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:15.290 Steve Wilson: Always assumed PhD was something… 33 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:31.260 Steve Wilson: kind of out of reach for me, personally, just because of my situation, but learning that, you know, it could be financially possible, learning that it was actually very research-focused, it wasn't just, I would be going to take 5 more years of courses. 34 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:37.520 Steve Wilson: Which is kind of what I had assumed it was when you did a PhD, you just took really hard courses the whole time. 35 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:46.530 Steve Wilson: But it's not that. It really is almost like an apprenticeship learning how to do research, with a little bit of coursework in there as well. 36 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:50.740 Steve Wilson: And that sounded really appealing to me, so that was… 37 00:04:50.990 --> 00:04:55.480 Steve Wilson: Kind of my final year of undergrad that this all started happening. 38 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:59.639 Steve Wilson: And I started looking at schools, I started applying, 39 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:07.709 Steve Wilson: probably still could have prepared better and learned more, but, you know, I put out my best shot and, 40 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:12.730 Steve Wilson: started applying for PhD programs, basically, right from there. 41 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:15.959 Steve Wilson: And that was how that decision came to be. 42 00:05:16.870 --> 00:05:29.119 Christopher Lewis: And I know you made the decision, finally, to attend the University of Michigan for a PhD program, and in that PhD program, you received both a master's and a PhD. 43 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:44.190 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about that decision-making process for yourself, because you said you started looking at programs. So, what did you do in that process for yourself, and what was it about the University of Michigan that made you decide that that was the right program for you? 44 00:05:45.670 --> 00:05:53.080 Steve Wilson: Right, okay, so… During my undergrad, I got… Pretty interested in… 45 00:05:55.640 --> 00:06:01.769 Steve Wilson: The combination slash overlap between computer science and psychology or cognitive science. 46 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:10.100 Steve Wilson: Because I had actually started out a psychology major during my undergrad. Psychology pre-med, actually, and then… 47 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:20.780 Steve Wilson: for various reasons, ended up switching to computer science. But I had still always been super interested in the aspects of human behavior, how people interact, cognition, things like that. 48 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:28.519 Steve Wilson: So I was super interested in that as a starting point, and I think that led a lot of my search for 49 00:06:28.760 --> 00:06:30.549 Steve Wilson: Who are the people 50 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:50.509 Steve Wilson: working at that intersection, who would be doing something related to computer science, but also where I'd be able to do something related to psychology or cognitive science. So, I just started looking around online to see where are these researchers who are doing this kind of stuff, and I found some amazing people all around the world doing really cool things. 51 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:55.150 Steve Wilson: And… Started looking at… 52 00:06:55.350 --> 00:07:06.179 Steve Wilson: the PhD programs where they were taking students, and that kind of gave me a short list of potential programs, to apply for, where I thought. 53 00:07:06.530 --> 00:07:15.120 Steve Wilson: This is research I'd be super excited about working on. If I was able to be fortunate to get a position working with any of these people, I would be pretty happy. 54 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:19.830 Steve Wilson: And that would kind of allow me to build off of the background that I had. 55 00:07:20.330 --> 00:07:27.260 Steve Wilson: And… One of those programs was the University of Michigan, I… 56 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:37.390 Steve Wilson: applied to the program. I… I think another criteria, in addition, which Michigan has, which was a funding guarantee. 57 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:45.949 Steve Wilson: Which is something I talked about before, but, you know, the financials were a big thing for me. And not every school has the same kind of funding guarantee. 58 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:55.579 Steve Wilson: University of Michigan had a 5-year guaranteed funding for all PhD students who were admitted into the College of Engineering, which was pretty appealing to me. 59 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:00.820 Steve Wilson: To know that I would be able to make good progress and not have to worry about 60 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:14.529 Steve Wilson: funding. And a number of other schools had similar programs that I kind of exclusively applied to those kind of programs who also had faculty, were working in this type of intersection area, and… 61 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:23.440 Steve Wilson: I think I eventually ended up going for in-person interviews at 3 or 4 universities. 62 00:08:25.030 --> 00:08:35.010 Steve Wilson: they all felt great when I was there, and I think U of M was the last one, so sometimes I wonder if there was a recency bias there, but each one, I think, impressed me more than the previous one. 63 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:42.400 Steve Wilson: But I really felt… that I could connect and relate to the students when I visited. 64 00:08:42.510 --> 00:08:46.209 Steve Wilson: In a way that felt different from some of the other places. 65 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:55.659 Steve Wilson: And there were not just one faculty, but a number of different faculty at the University of Michigan who I felt were very strong in the areas I was interested in. 66 00:08:56.250 --> 00:09:11.639 Steve Wilson: So, I felt that that was also very safe to have as a, you know, what if somebody leaves, or what if it doesn't work out with a certain faculty member? I felt pretty confident that I would be able to find someone that I was happy working with for… 67 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.599 Steve Wilson: You know, 5 or 6 years on research. 68 00:09:15.740 --> 00:09:22.240 Steve Wilson: And I'm also… grew up in Michigan, so, there was that pull to be… 69 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:30.469 Steve Wilson: within driving distance of home and things like that was nice. So all of those things kind of converged to make it feel like it was the right decision. 70 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:46.629 Christopher Lewis: So, in transitioning into a graduate program, there is always a transition, because the way in which you're educated at an undergraduate level is typically different than what you're being asked to do at a graduate level. 71 00:09:46.810 --> 00:10:04.400 Christopher Lewis: the rigor is different, the expectations in the classroom are going to be different, and you do have to go through a transition for yourself to be able to find that groove and find that… that ability to be able to understand, okay, what am I being expected to do, and how can I best do that? So. 72 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:09.200 Christopher Lewis: You were able to find success in this journey that you went on. 73 00:10:10.110 --> 00:10:16.820 Christopher Lewis: What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? 74 00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:24.620 Christopher Lewis: And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience? 75 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:35.130 Steve Wilson: this isn't good, repeatable advice, but I think I got very lucky a few times, especially at the beginning, because I think I actually… 76 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:47.370 Steve Wilson: didn't prepare in the best way possible. I don't think I fully understood what a PhD program was, to be honest, when I started. I knew it was about research, I knew I was gonna be working on 77 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.320 Steve Wilson: interesting stuff, and I was very excited about it. 78 00:10:50.760 --> 00:10:55.759 Steve Wilson: But… I still don't think I fully understood what it meant to… 79 00:10:56.110 --> 00:11:10.890 Steve Wilson: do a dissertation, and really get involved in this longer-term, not just a summer research position, but, you know, really trying to make a contribution, sustained contribution in a field, and what went into that, and how do you prepare yourself as a 80 00:11:11.340 --> 00:11:14.229 Steve Wilson: Developing into a researcher from someone who's 81 00:11:15.050 --> 00:11:19.879 Steve Wilson: Been used to being handed assignments for things and studying for exams and all of that. 82 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:26.620 Steve Wilson: I think I could have prepared a lot more, probably by talking to more people 83 00:11:27.150 --> 00:11:34.150 Steve Wilson: in PhD programs, or who had gone through similar experiences, or finding… there are actually tons of great resources online, which I… 84 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.020 Steve Wilson: I'm not sure I knew even what to search for. 85 00:11:37.130 --> 00:11:41.849 Steve Wilson: when I was an undergraduate, but a lot of people who have written about their experiences, 86 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:44.759 Steve Wilson: Through blog posts or other things like that, which… 87 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:51.250 Steve Wilson: I only found later and thought, this… wow, this would have been really… valuable to me early on. 88 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:56.749 Steve Wilson: so some of it was learning as I was going, and then some of it was, 89 00:11:57.260 --> 00:12:06.249 Steve Wilson: you know, as I mentioned, the luck thing, I think, comes into play with my own advisor, who was not actually at the University of Michigan when I applied. 90 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:11.629 Steve Wilson: So I made that comment about there being several faculty that I thought I might work with. 91 00:12:11.790 --> 00:12:14.170 Steve Wilson: The person I ended up working with wasn't one of them. 92 00:12:14.650 --> 00:12:23.210 Steve Wilson: And… She actually started the same semester I did, coming from another institution, and was a new faculty member. 93 00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:33.580 Steve Wilson: And the way I remember it, it was, she sent an email to the new PhD student saying there was a project related to computer science and psychology and language and… 94 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:44.349 Steve Wilson: if anyone's interested in that kind of research, to come talk to her. And that was, you know, as I described before, kind of exactly the thing I was interested in, so I… 95 00:12:44.750 --> 00:12:46.470 Steve Wilson: Set up a meeting. 96 00:12:46.860 --> 00:13:02.990 Steve Wilson: We started kind of tentatively working on something, and then that became my entire dissertation. So, in some ways, I feel like I stumbled into that path, which is what ended up working very well for me, in the long run. But if I… 97 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:22.249 Steve Wilson: if I would give advice to people, it probably wouldn't be just go somewhere and hope you find the best advisor by chance. It would be do your homework beforehand and figure out what it looks like to be a student in their lab, even looking at some of the trajectories of their own, you know, the other students who work in that research lab and things like that. 98 00:13:22.590 --> 00:13:28.360 Steve Wilson: Other things to be successful, I think, was… 99 00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:31.079 Steve Wilson: I, I really do think, 100 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:36.440 Steve Wilson: My undergrad education at Taylor prepared me fairly well for a lot of the… 101 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:42.649 Steve Wilson: CS coursework. I think there was a good, solid technical background that I had. 102 00:13:42.790 --> 00:13:51.809 Steve Wilson: I found grad school, especially at University of Michigan, to have a bigger emphasis on some of the, like, math and theory components. 103 00:13:51.970 --> 00:13:55.579 Steve Wilson: of the field of computer science, which I… 104 00:13:55.730 --> 00:13:57.409 Steve Wilson: Had to do some catching up. 105 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:00.510 Steve Wilson: I would say, but I think you… 106 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:03.360 Steve Wilson: I think the undergraduate degree is… 107 00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:14.410 Steve Wilson: maybe this is kind of cliche, but it's learning how to learn about things on your own, and I feel like I was kind of able to get that to the point that if there were things that were thrown at me in my master's, that 108 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:16.500 Steve Wilson: May have been a gap. 109 00:14:16.660 --> 00:14:23.570 Steve Wilson: I kind of had the ability to identify that and do a little bit of self-study to catch up. 110 00:14:23.670 --> 00:14:44.940 Steve Wilson: or rely on other classmates, you know, make some friends, study together, that kind of thing, and get through some of that coursework, which was definitely challenging at times for the… you know, this was for the master's component of my program, where you… you did the coursework that would be involved in a master's during the first two years of your PhD, while you're also getting started with your research. 111 00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:51.020 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, there were some… Challenges there, just getting used to, 112 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:55.730 Steve Wilson: Maybe a different level of courses and having some of those different areas covered. 113 00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:04.410 Steve Wilson: But yeah, I think those are some of the things. I don't know, yeah. 114 00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:07.300 Steve Wilson: Maybe that… I'll leave it there for now. 115 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:16.210 Christopher Lewis: I guess as you look back, you've gotten through the master's and the doctorate, you went to do a postdoc as well, and you continue to do that. 116 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:25.930 Christopher Lewis: If you could go back in time prior to starting in the master's degree, how would you prepare academically or professionally before starting graduate school? 117 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:34.229 Steve Wilson: for my PhD, I think, like, before, yeah, PhD or Master's, 118 00:15:35.690 --> 00:15:41.770 Steve Wilson: maybe getting a bit more immersed in the research, the field that I was getting into from a… 119 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:48.250 Steve Wilson: What's happening now perspective, not the historic, fundamental stuff, which is covered in your courses, but… 120 00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:57.739 Steve Wilson: I don't know if I would have been able to convince myself to do this, but if I could have spent the summer before reading a lot of research papers, for example, that were kind of the core 121 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:03.469 Steve Wilson: pieces, or very recent trends. Because there was a lot to learn about 122 00:16:03.890 --> 00:16:12.139 Steve Wilson: Not what has this field been like for… in 50… the past 50 years, but especially in the past 2 or 3 years, what are the trends, what's going on? 123 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.009 Steve Wilson: getting used to being able to read a research paper, I think, is one of those things that 124 00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:29.960 Steve Wilson: takes practice. It's almost like an exercise, mental muscle type of thing, more so than a thing you can just teach, here's how to read a research paper. Obviously, there are some tips, but really, you have to do it. You just have to do it. 125 00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:37.479 Steve Wilson: looking at, talks from people, which are often posted online, like, on YouTube, from leaders in the field. 126 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.959 Steve Wilson: Hearing what they have to say, what people are writing about, to get… 127 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:46.150 Steve Wilson: very involved in some of that, and then… 128 00:16:46.300 --> 00:16:56.739 Steve Wilson: Yeah, if there are topics that would be background, if you were pivoting toward a different field for your graduate degree, I know that's fairly common, where I would see people from 129 00:16:57.930 --> 00:17:10.289 Steve Wilson: a range of other fields who want to do a master's in computer science, for example. I had classmates who had backgrounds all the way through music. I knew someone who's a music undergrad and then did CS masters, or sometimes people do a bit of a shift. 130 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.790 Steve Wilson: So… 131 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:19.989 Steve Wilson: a little bit of self-study, I think, on some of those concepts that are used across a lot of courses. For me, I actually did do a little bit of… 132 00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:28.330 Steve Wilson: study of some math concepts in the summer before, that I felt like I needed to catch up on. 133 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:36.420 Steve Wilson: So those kind of things, but I think if you can hit the ground running, kind of having a good sense of where is this field 134 00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:38.290 Steve Wilson: at right now. 135 00:17:38.540 --> 00:17:47.060 Steve Wilson: Even if you don't understand all of it, but knowing the trends, not in just a buzzword way, but what are people who are working on this actually talking about it can be… 136 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:51.350 Steve Wilson: extremely helpful for, like, getting kickstart as a researcher. 137 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:02.289 Christopher Lewis: And as you just go into a doctorate program, and you are moving into that next phase of your life. 138 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:20.899 Christopher Lewis: how… there takes a… there's a lot of things that you have to balance, and a lot of hats that you have to wear. You're not only a student, but you are a… you're still… you are… you're still a son, you're a… you could be… you have a significant other, there's lots of different things that you have to juggle. 139 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:30.579 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about balance for yourself, and how did you balance school with work and family and personal responsibilities while you were going through that graduate school process? 140 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:34.170 Steve Wilson: Yeah, definitely a big challenge. 141 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:43.020 Steve Wilson: because it is a… it's a thing, you can kind of give as much time as… as you want to it, right? Like, there's always more you can do. 142 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:48.129 Steve Wilson: When you're in one of these graduate programs, I think, or more that you feel that you could be doing. 143 00:18:50.030 --> 00:19:00.839 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, I think part of it was balancing schedules with, my partner, so I was married the entire time through 144 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:05.020 Steve Wilson: graduate school. My wife worked… 145 00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:09.709 Steve Wilson: For the first while, night shifts at the hospital. 146 00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:16.210 Steve Wilson: There in Ann Arbor as well, so there was some convenience to that, because we were both able to 147 00:19:16.840 --> 00:19:24.089 Steve Wilson: live without really needing a car. I mean, I could pick up the bus to where I worked, and we lived near the hospital where she worked. 148 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:30.460 Steve Wilson: We did our thing there. And that led me to… Doing a lot of work. 149 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:35.450 Steve Wilson: Late at night, because that was when she was working. 150 00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:46.799 Steve Wilson: And that was when I felt like I could kind of lock in, and I wasn't getting a lot of emails or other kind of distractions, and having those, like, set aside solid times of 151 00:19:47.410 --> 00:19:54.419 Steve Wilson: productivity, where I'm sitting down. You know, a lot of my work was being at the keyboard in front of the computer, you know. 152 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.940 Steve Wilson: Whether it's writing code, running experiments, writing papers, reading papers, that kind of thing. 153 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:06.159 Steve Wilson: And finding the time when I could regularly do that was useful. 154 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:18.929 Steve Wilson: but then also making sure to have time that's not for that, that works with other people's schedules. So there were certain periods of time where 155 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:20.360 Steve Wilson: I would… 156 00:20:20.870 --> 00:20:27.490 Steve Wilson: Be home, and be around, and not working on stuff, which is the time that we're both awake. 157 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:36.799 Steve Wilson: And able to spend time together and do things with other friends in the area. We had a good number of mutual friends, I think. 158 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:44.400 Steve Wilson: around Ann Arbor that, you know, would pull me away from the lab, which was a nice thing, I think, to make those connections, and not just be a… 159 00:20:45.070 --> 00:20:48.370 Steve Wilson: I'm gonna go put my head down and not talk to anyone. 160 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.689 Steve Wilson: I actually found it really valuable to have a lot of friends who are not 161 00:20:51.860 --> 00:21:08.519 Steve Wilson: PhD students in computer science also. I definitely had friends in the program, but having friends doing other things kind of gives you the opportunity to step outside of that a little bit, when you're doing things with them, hearing about what's going on in their lives and things like that, so… 162 00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:11.129 Steve Wilson: That's also useful. And then… 163 00:21:11.350 --> 00:21:20.680 Steve Wilson: Like I said, the University of Michigan was located near where I grew up, so I did have family nearby, which I'm definitely very fortunate. I know not everyone 164 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:25.139 Steve Wilson: Has the opportunity to go to grad school near where they lived. 165 00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:30.589 Steve Wilson: But it was possible for me to, like, take a weekend trip and drive home and see 166 00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:33.150 Steve Wilson: My parents and things like that, so… 167 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.699 Steve Wilson: That also happened fairly regularly, I think. 168 00:21:37.290 --> 00:21:40.749 Steve Wilson: But, yeah, I would say it's… 169 00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:48.199 Steve Wilson: it's challenging. I have kids now, I didn't have kids as a grad student. I think life would have been very different, you know. 170 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:56.320 Steve Wilson: also balancing being a dad with grad school, and really, I'm not sure how I would have done it other than 171 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:02.380 Steve Wilson: I don't know, being just very regimented and strict with my time, even more so than I was. 172 00:22:02.620 --> 00:22:09.669 Steve Wilson: But… yeah, I think I… it was already kind of… I felt maxed out, you know, already with… 173 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:12.360 Steve Wilson: The situation that it was in at the time. 174 00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:31.970 Christopher Lewis: I appreciate you sharing that. Now, I mentioned earlier in passing that after you received your doctorate, you did go and do a post-bac, or a postdoc… go on… you went and did a postdoc at the University of Edinburgh, and 175 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:52.039 Christopher Lewis: We haven't really talked a lot about that on the show, so I want to have you talk a little bit more about that experience, and what made you decide, after you were done with your doctorate, to take that next step and continue working in a higher education setting, but in a little bit of a different way? 176 00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:55.869 Steve Wilson: Yeah, so that was a great experience. 177 00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:57.400 Steve Wilson: To start. 178 00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:03.779 Steve Wilson: I started thinking about postdocs toward the end of my PhD, 179 00:23:04.270 --> 00:23:06.040 Steve Wilson: I think as a way to… 180 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:12.329 Steve Wilson: A couple things I wanted to achieve with that, I guess. One was to broaden my research experience a bit. 181 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:23.199 Steve Wilson: I feel… I think the purpose of a PhD is that you're very focused, and you're working on one very specific line of work, sustained over a period of time, so that you can make a contribution to the field. 182 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:25.539 Steve Wilson: But I had this feeling, like. 183 00:23:26.310 --> 00:23:32.480 Steve Wilson: I just had worked on this one thing for so long. I wanted to get a little bit more breadth. I was… 184 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:38.459 Steve Wilson: Definitely, in the back of my mind, thinking about faculty jobs down the road. 185 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.819 Steve Wilson: But thought that it would be valuable to… 186 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:46.070 Steve Wilson: Have a little bit more breadth in my research experience. 187 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.229 Steve Wilson: And at the same time. 188 00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:55.660 Steve Wilson: the international experience was appealing to me. I had always lived in the same country my whole life. 189 00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:58.089 Steve Wilson: And it was kind of a… 190 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:04.230 Steve Wilson: goal of mine to spend some time outside of the United States at some point. 191 00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:18.280 Steve Wilson: Just to experience living somewhere else. And I do think that was really valuable for me. And I thought a postdoc was a great opportunity to do that because of the fact that they're usually fixed-term contract type of positions, so it wasn't… it didn't feel like… 192 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:26.929 Steve Wilson: a commitment to move to this place indefinitely or something. It was, you know, I knew going in this was a two-year term. 193 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:28.270 Steve Wilson: Kind of thing. 194 00:24:28.450 --> 00:24:34.480 Steve Wilson: And it was a way to kind of see what it's like in a new place, get some more experience. 195 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:42.429 Steve Wilson: continue doing research. I mean, the position I found, I think, was a really natural progression for my PhD work to expand it a little bit. 196 00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:46.680 Steve Wilson: And it also gave a little bit more breathing room, 197 00:24:47.060 --> 00:24:55.610 Steve Wilson: Where I didn't feel like I had to be writing my dissertation, defending my dissertation, and applying for faculty jobs, which is also an exhausting 198 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:59.010 Steve Wilson: Process, I think, you know. 199 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:10.749 Steve Wilson: to apply for faculty positions, and doing all of that at the same time. So, a postdoc also helped to space that out a little bit, where I was finishing my dissertation, and then postdoc applications, pretty… 200 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:17.439 Steve Wilson: light, I would say, definitely compared to applying for tenure-track faculty jobs. A lot of those 201 00:25:17.620 --> 00:25:29.769 Steve Wilson: just come from word of mouth, or networking, or, you know, so-and-so just got a grant, and they have a postdoc written in, and they need someone to start in 4 months. That kind of stuff is pretty common, I think. So… 202 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.829 Steve Wilson: Yeah, looking at those positions was also a nice step to… 203 00:25:37.260 --> 00:25:40.509 Steve Wilson: you know, build onto my career, I think, and… 204 00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:45.790 Steve Wilson: Personally, I just found it a really valuable and enjoyable experience, too. 205 00:25:50.680 --> 00:26:00.550 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's in a technological field, business, health, whatever it may be. 206 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.879 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? 207 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.310 Steve Wilson: I think you want to come in with a clear idea of… Why you're doing it? 208 00:26:17.850 --> 00:26:19.450 Steve Wilson: What you want to get out of it? 209 00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:23.809 Steve Wilson: And take ownership of your experience as a graduate student. 210 00:26:24.780 --> 00:26:32.600 Steve Wilson: So, what I mean is not coming in and saying, I'm not sure, I might do this, I'll go and see… 211 00:26:33.100 --> 00:26:39.150 Steve Wilson: Maybe I'll do the minimum of what they ask me, get the piece of paper at the end. 212 00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:42.759 Steve Wilson: And that will open doors for me, or something like that. 213 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:53.610 Steve Wilson: I kind of feel like that's… it's an approach to graduate school, but I don't think it's going to really maximize what you get out of it. I think, what's really helpful is knowing I want to… 214 00:26:54.640 --> 00:27:07.760 Steve Wilson: achieve a certain kind of goal longer term, and I know this program's going to help me get there, and I want to make the most out of it to help build my profile, my skills development, those kind of things during that program, which means 215 00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:13.949 Steve Wilson: really thinking about what you want to learn, which… there are things you can learn 216 00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:33.249 Steve Wilson: beyond just the classroom. Even in the classroom, I think you can go beyond what's just given to you directly by professors by looking for ways to… I mean, I think we have a lot of, project-based kind of courses here at U of M Flint, for example, but those kind of things, I think, lend themselves nicely to 217 00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:45.019 Steve Wilson: students exploring things that match their interests. If you have the chance to do things like projects or, research components within courses, where you're able to explore those things that are going to help 218 00:27:45.550 --> 00:27:51.790 Steve Wilson: Act as a perfect stepping stone, or give you the skills that you want to talk about when you're applying for jobs later. 219 00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:02.059 Steve Wilson: That you can kind of control, you should really do that, but even outside of the classroom, I think the relationships during grad school are extremely valuable. 220 00:28:02.270 --> 00:28:06.920 Steve Wilson: I think I was always… had this impression of networking as this… 221 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:14.880 Steve Wilson: you know, people in suits shaking hands with each other kind of thing, but really, I think a lot of the most valuable networking I've done is… 222 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:23.449 Steve Wilson: making friends in grad school, for example, which sounds maybe too easy, but these are the people who are 223 00:28:23.870 --> 00:28:32.459 Steve Wilson: they're the future leaders in your field, right? Like, you're going to school with other people who are passionate about whatever you're studying, that want to get a graduate degree. 224 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:50.370 Steve Wilson: it's a really unique opportunity to be in the same place consistently with that kind of cohort of people for several years, and they are probably going to be doing really impressive, amazing things in 5, 10 years. And those people that you know now, I mean, I don't think… 225 00:28:50.480 --> 00:29:03.849 Steve Wilson: you should think of relationships as this, oh, I'm only being friends so that you'll help me later, but… I mean, when I think of what my friends from grad school are doing now, it's, you know, they're all doing amazing things, and I have this network of people 226 00:29:04.130 --> 00:29:11.890 Steve Wilson: Around the world, in industry, in academia, doing cool things that I didn't… go to… 227 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:24.029 Steve Wilson: you know, show up at knocking on doors at Google or something to know people at Google, it's just you knew people from grad school who ended up there, or those kinds of things. So I think that's a really valuable thing, is going… 228 00:29:24.290 --> 00:29:31.409 Steve Wilson: Again, beyond just what's asked of you as a grad student, but finding people around other opportunities if there are, like. 229 00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:41.409 Steve Wilson: clubs or resources that help you with, developing in your area of specialization. If you can get involved in research projects, even as a master's student. 230 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:49.099 Steve Wilson: I think research can be valuable if you find the right project. I mean, not everyone wants to do a PhD, or wants to go into a research field. 231 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:59.160 Steve Wilson: But you can also think of research as, like, a very open-ended way to work with someone who's kind of an expert on this topic that you wanted to study. 232 00:29:59.530 --> 00:30:02.660 Steve Wilson: And… 233 00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:13.429 Steve Wilson: I mean, make it a negotiation if you're trying to figure out a project to work on. Maybe they don't exactly do this thing that you want to get the skill, but they do something pretty close, and you can say, hey, I really want to… 234 00:30:14.020 --> 00:30:15.960 Steve Wilson: Get some experience with… 235 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:26.600 Steve Wilson: whatever it is. For AI right now, you know a hot thing is dealing with agents, so I really want to learn how to do something with, you know, agentic AI. Is there something we can work on in your lab that would… 236 00:30:26.790 --> 00:30:36.599 Steve Wilson: fit with your research goals, but also would give me some hands-on, direct experience with Agentic AI, or whatever the thing is that you really want that skill. 237 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.669 Steve Wilson: That's gonna be super valuable, not just for research positions later, but… 238 00:30:41.780 --> 00:30:53.070 Steve Wilson: for an industry position where you can say, hey, I spent the semester, or a year, or whatever it was, building these kind of tools that's exactly the thing your company's LinkedIn post is looking for. 239 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.049 Steve Wilson: For… 240 00:30:55.290 --> 00:31:05.379 Steve Wilson: their purposes, and I learned from this person who has expertise in the field of how to make sure that it's done correctly, and for an impact, and all of those kind of things. 241 00:31:05.610 --> 00:31:12.540 Steve Wilson: I think that can be useful. But yeah, just being very on the, 242 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:14.950 Steve Wilson: On the lookout for opportunities. 243 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:18.460 Steve Wilson: While you're there, during graduate school, to… 244 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:23.509 Steve Wilson: To do things that, are gonna set you up for success in the future. 245 00:31:23.800 --> 00:31:31.319 Steve Wilson: And talking to other people who are in similar situations, and seeing what they're doing, and those kind of things, I just think is super valuable. 246 00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:34.400 Steve Wilson: In addition to the coursework, which is gonna… 247 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:37.430 Steve Wilson: You know, maybe get you another level of, 248 00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:42.399 Steve Wilson: Beyond your undergraduate courses in a bit more advanced level of a lot of different… 249 00:31:42.670 --> 00:31:46.349 Steve Wilson: Areas, and maybe allow you to specialize a little bit more. 250 00:31:49.950 --> 00:32:12.040 Christopher Lewis: Well, Steve, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share these words of wisdom and to kind of think back and relive some of the experiences, but also share some great tips, some great ideas for individuals to think about as they're starting their journey for themselves. And I wish you all the best. 251 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:13.430 Steve Wilson: Thank you.

Trusting the Process: A PA Student's Guide to Graduate School Success

In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Edie Lerner, a second-year physician assistant (PA) student at the University of Michigan, Flint, whose journey offers a powerful blend of inspiration and practical advice for anyone considering—or currently navigating—graduate school. From the moment Edie Lerner shares her story, the theme of intentionality stands out. Edie's path to graduate school was anything but rushed. After double majoring in Biology and Biopsychology, Cognition, and Neuroscience at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, she took two and a half years off. During this gap, she gathered hands-on experience in healthcare, worked as a teaching assistant, and developed both the skills and self-understanding necessary to thrive in a rigorous PA program. As Edie notes, the decision to pursue graduate education isn't just about academics—it's about being truly ready as a person for the journey ahead. A recurring message throughout the conversation is the importance of support systems. Edie intentionally sought out programs close to home, valuing proximity to her family and the ability to lean on her loved ones during challenging times (05:29). For her, success in graduate school isn't just about surviving exams or clinical hours—it's about sustaining her well-being through community connections, advocacy, and service. The University of Michigan Flint's focus on leadership and integrated service learning resonated deeply, aligning with Edie's passion for making a meaningful impact beyond the classroom. Transitioning to graduate-level study, Edie speaks candidly about the reality of burnout, adapting study habits, and the need to maintain boundaries. Her approach—setting realistic limits for study hours, making time each week for personal renewal, and actively seeking help from faculty and peers—emphasizes that resilience is built through self-awareness and intentional choices. Through it all, Edie's mantra has become "trust the process." Growth doesn't happen overnight, and every challenge—big or small—shapes who you become as a student and a future professional. Perhaps the most powerful takeaway from this episode is Edie's encouragement to anyone at the starting line: know your "why," lean on your support system, and remember that you are capable. As Dr. Lewis points out, the journey isn't always easy, but the transformation and sense of purpose make it all worthwhile. Whether you're considering grad school or are deep in the trenches yourself, this episode provides practical insights and a comforting reminder—you're not alone in your journey. Ready for motivation and strategies you can apply to your own path? Listen to the full conversation and fuel your drive to succeed. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you come back and you come back to learn and grow every week. And the reason for, for that is that you've got this inkling and maybe it's an inkling of just like, hey, maybe I want to do this graduate school thing, or maybe you're a little bit further along. No matter where you are in the journey, it is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: You have some idea in your head that you want to either go to graduate school, you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, but you want to be successful in this journey, and that's why you're here, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk to individuals that are interested in working toward that graduate school goal for themselves, and I love being able to introduce you to people that have gone before you. They might still be in graduate school, they might have already graduated and are out working and have been in the field for many years. But the commonality is they all went through the journey themselves and you can learn from them. You can learn from the things that worked, the things that didn't work. And, and that's why I bring you different people with different experiences that can share those journeys with you. And today we got another great guest. Edie Lerner is with us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:32]: And Edie is a second year physician assistant student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She just finished up the first year, moving into the second year, and I'm really excited to be able to have her here. Edie, thanks so much for being here today. Edie Lerner [00:01:44]: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to share a little bit about my journey and share my time at U of M. Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here as well. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and you did a double major there, doing a biology degree as well as biopsychology. Cognition, neuroscience, that's a big named degree. But at some point in that journey, and it might have been during college, and you always had the idea for graduate school or I know you left college, went out, did some work, got some experiences before you decided to go to graduate school, Maybe in those first few years after graduate school, something lit up, something sparked, and you said to yourself, I want to keep going and I want to go and become a physician assistant. Bring me back to that point. What was going through your head? Edie Lerner [00:02:35]: Yeah, I started my journey at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, and I truly loved learning. I've always enjoyed the sciences most specifically. And I kind of went into undergrad knowing that I wanted to do more higher education afterwards. So I didn't know what that looked like exactly for me. I knew it was something in the healthcare field. I grew up in older adult homes, which my mom works for a company in long term care. And I knew I wanted to continue my journey supporting patients and supporting people through their healthcare experiences. And I didn't know what that looked like for me at the time. Edie Lerner [00:03:13]: I was very young, 18 years old, and I joined Alpha Epsilon Delta, which is a pre health honor society at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. And I got to hear other people's experiences. They were pre med or they were pre pa, which is ultimately what I decided to go into. And I really wanted to make sure that I was ready as a human to go into graduate school because it is a big commitment, education wise, time wise, financially. And so after I graduated from U of M in Ann Arbor, I took about two and a half years off. I worked on my PA school applications, I worked on getting direct patient care with others, and I even was a teaching assistant for a little bit in Denver, which was an amazing experience. And finally, when I went to apply to graduate school, I said, I feel comfortable who I am as a person and I feel ready and capable of taking on this huge next step. So while I knew I wanted to go to graduate school and undergrad, it wasn't until I really worked on myself outside of education and outside of being a student to know I was ready to be a graduate. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:21]: So going through that process and finally figuring out, okay, this is the cycle that I'm going to be applying in. And if you haven't applied to PA school, physician assistants apply in a cycle. So that means that at one point in the year, all PA programs will open up their applications. You apply during that cycle, and then you're considered for the next start period for that program. That could be in the fall, it could be in the winter. There's lots of different times. So talking back at that cycle, Edie, you decided it was time you decided to put in the application. Well, when you applied, I'm sure that you had done some research and started to figure out for yourself what programs do I really want to apply to? Because there's many different physician assistant programs out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:05]: And getting into a PA program is quite competitive and there's a lot of applicants. So talk to me about how did you whittle that list down? How did you identify which schools you were going to apply to? And ultimately how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you? Edie Lerner [00:05:22]: Yeah, that's a great question. Applying to PA school and getting into PA School is a whole feat in itself. So when I was applying, I really valued programs that were close to home. I'm from Farmington Hills, Michigan, which is about an hour away from Flint. And I knew PA school is an incredibly treacherous journey. Learning and being in uncomfortable situations. And I wanted to be able to have my support system close to me. It's so important that I'm able to go home on the weekend to see my mom for dinner. Edie Lerner [00:05:53]: And just that really kept me sane throughout my school journey so far. Other things about the University of Michigan Flint specifically I really valued was some of the pillars of our program which are leadership and advocacy. I still work on Perfect Pair, which is a national nonprofit, as the director of chapters. And we work to pair college students with older adults living in long term care facilities to combat loneliness and isolation. And the University of Michigan Flint in my PA program has an entire leadership and advocacy project that we actually get to start working on this summer, which I'm very excited for, where we get to go out into the community and do more research and outreach in an area that we're interested in. And so that was one part of the program that was really aligned with my goals and values. Especially because being a leader and being an advocate not only for patients but also for community in more public health spaces is something that is incredibly valuable to me personally. Another thing that I really loved was the fact that we do integrated service learning in our program. Edie Lerner [00:07:00]: So embedd one of our courses. We are assigned to go to different community bases. So right now, or actually it just finished because we're going into our clinical phase, but we would go into the hospital and participate in the Hurley Help program, which is also supporting older adults who are admitted to the hospital and combating delirium. And so we would visit with them, sit with them. I love to play uno with the patients that I got to see as long as they wanted to and just hear their stories and be there as another support system outside of their Healthcare staff as a volunteer. And so I think especially with my previous experiences in undergrad and throughout my gap years and in PA school, really being able to serve for the community in a volunteer capacity, getting us prepared to serve the community as a PA has been really valuable to me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:49]: Every student that goes to graduate school has to go through some type of transition for themselves because going through an undergraduate education you're taught in one way, there's certain expectations and the expectations are not the same as the type of expectations that you would get, especially, especially in a health related program where there is a high caliber of learning that has to happen with hands on experience and being able to show mastery. So talk to me about for yourself, as you were transitioning into your graduate program, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you've continued through not only the first term but your second term and beyond, what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout the journey thus far? Edie Lerner [00:08:35]: Yeah, that's a great question. And to some degree it just happens in PA school specifically, a lot of the jargon surrounding it is that you do not learn the same and you cannot learn the same as you did in undergrad. And I completely back that statement. The reason is we are given so much content and so much learning and so much information because the future of our specific career is supporting people and saving people's lives. And there is so much information that comes with the human body and anatomy. And so with getting that amount of information, you cannot learn the same. So in undergrad I reviewed, I read over things I highlighted and going into BA school, if you try to rewrote, rewrite one PowerPoint, you will, it'll take you three days and that sets you back immensely for studying. So one part of my growing has been academically and learning that active learning, flashcards, doing practice exams that you either find on a website or that you create yourselves are the way that success comes. Edie Lerner [00:09:40]: So really learning how to learn and relearning how to learn as a graduate student has been a big part of my journey as well as knowing in being confident in who I am and knowing when it's time to take a break. I think my first semester of PA school, I have never studied so much in my life. I studied 10 to 12 hours a day, even if we were in lectures. And I became incredibly burnt out, which was a scary feeling because it was my first semester and we had a long road to go until graduation. So after that first semester I decided to make it a point that I would do one thing either with my friends and family or for myself in a week. And that is something I have continued to maintain and hope to maintain throughout my clinical education. Because it is so important to take a step back and know that you can't be studying 24 hours a day. It's impossible. Edie Lerner [00:10:29]: And so learn how you need to learn, as well as maintaining some mental health and connection to your community and support systems that have been there along the way for you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:39]: So, speaking about burnout, I want to delve into that a little bit because you're not the first individual that has talked about having to deal with burnout as they go through a graduate degree. Talk to me about the warning signs that you recognized in yourself or that others recognized in you, and what did you have to do to be able to not only get through that point, but you just mentioned some of the things you had to change, but what were other things that you had to change to be able to make sure that that burnout didn't keep reeling its head? Edie Lerner [00:11:09]: Yeah, burnout is incredibly real, especially in health care. I mean, we are serving people every day. We're talking to people, you know, we're learning every single day still. And so some of the signs I saw was my partner would talk to me and they would say, hey, you know, like, you don't seem okay. I haven't seen you smile in two days. And when you're in the thick of it, studying for four exams that happen within the time span of three days, it's really hard to figure out what you need to do to get over that hurdle. So for me specifically, I took the time during my break between my first semester and second semester to say, okay, I don't want to get into that hole again. I don't want to feel the way I felt during that specific exam week. Edie Lerner [00:11:52]: What are some things that I can implement actively so that I feel prepared and I feel that I have studied enough while I'm still maintaining my own mental health and the things I need to do to stay happy and stay excited to learn and stay excited to be uncomfortable in new learning environments. So I also implemented. I would Never study past 10:30pm 9:00pm and 10:00pm was a little too early for me, but 10:30 was my cutoff, and I also made sure to do that one thing a week. Another thing I did was study actively earlier. So it wasn't until the end of my first semester where I started to understand what my learning looks like to give me success in my exams and in my Patient evaluations. So I started studying for my exams the day that we walked into the classroom. So there wasn't many full days off, but there was a lot of days that I was studying for less hours so that that burnout wouldn't build upon itself, which within such a short time of cramming. Because if I got to the point where I had to cram again, that's when things really started going downhill for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: One of the other things that I guess that I would ask is this, because being in a program that does have a lot of expectations, and as you are entering into a program, you're still a friend, a daughter, maybe a significant other, you wear a lot of hats, you're a student, and wearing all of those different hats draws from your time, draws from your effort. And you have to figure out where is that optimal balance? What did you have to do to be able to find that balance for yourself? Whether it was with school, work, family, personal responsibilities while you've been in graduate school thus far? Edie Lerner [00:13:37]: Yeah, all of those different hats are so important when you are just living your life. So while I was preparing to go to graduate school, I knew this was two and a half years of my life that I needed to put myself first and put my education first. And so I had a lot of conversations before I even began the program, talking with my family and with my friends, saying, hey, here's my week off. That happens in five months. I would love to set a time to see you and talk to you then, but before then, I'm not sure what my capacity will look like. And that is a really hard conversation to have. And sometimes people didn't take it as seriously. I remember Visit vividly, one of my family members, they said, oh, don't be dramatic. Edie Lerner [00:14:22]: You'll be fine. I'll see you the same amount of time. And that's okay if that's what they need to hear. But I have set those boundaries for myself. And it was really important to set those boundaries so that when I had to say no to a family obligation, that wasn't something important enough for me to miss studying or miss an exam. I could call back to that time and say, hey, this is something I let you know before I started the program. And I have to put my education first and I have to put my studying first. With that being said, I personally have never had to miss something that was important to me to go to and that my family needed me to show up to, whether that meant having a little bit later of a night or an earlier morning to study. Edie Lerner [00:15:04]: Those expectations that I put on myself to be there for my family still maintained. It just looked a little bit different than maybe it would have in the past where I had to leave an event earlier or just wake up earlier to study. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:16]: You've been on campus now for about a year and a half and as you said, you've dealt with different things, whether it be burnout or other issues. Were there any campus resources or student organizations that really help you do to help you support your success in their journey? Edie Lerner [00:15:31]: Thus far, 100%. I don't think as a graduate student you could survive just by yourself on an island. Specifically the Merchi Science Building. It's not a particular organization, but it is a place and I lived there for my didactic education. I really loved utilizing the whiteboards and USAN has a coffee shop and also food that I would go to often on the weekends. In the morning when I was studying on Saturday, it would be, I'm gonna go, but I'm gonna get a coff. It got me there and it helped me start my day. Also in our PA program we have such wonderful faculty. Edie Lerner [00:16:06]: Professor Falls, Professor Moore. They are only an email away or even a phone call away if it's an emergency. And I really think that them having such an open door policy to support their students has been life changing. As a PA student, when the education is so complicated, if I do have a question or if I need some emotional support for a tough time because life does not stop when you're in graduate school. They're always there and that's been a really wonderful resource. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:33]: What specific skills would you say that you had to develop most in graduate school? Edie Lerner [00:16:38]: Yeah, the first skill that comes to mind is adaptability. Every day does not look the same and every exam doesn't look the same. And we are constantly changing what we're learning in terms of body system. If we're learning about the heart versus learning about the lungs, things that worked in one area of studying doesn't look the same in the next area of studying. And so really being able to to adapt to different learning styles and systems, even within the program itself has been really important as well as adapt. I am so uncomfortable sometimes in my program in the best way possible. We talk to standardized patients a lot, so being able to shift and adapt depending on what they're saying and completely new situations that we've never been in. Our last standardized patient was a large surprise to a lot of our cohort. Edie Lerner [00:17:25]: So really being able to adapt in the moment, in seconds in the room with the patient of what you're talking about and what you're expected to do as a PA student, I think has been vital. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:34]: And I already heard you talk about those first exams and burnout and things like that. Was there any other defining moments or turning points within your education thus far that really have shaped either your academic journey or your professional journey for where you're at right now? Edie Lerner [00:17:50]: I think it really comes with just trusting the process. I can't pick out a particular moment, but I am not the same person I was when I stepped into graduate school. There are so many skills and lessons and professional developments that happen within PE school, and I think it happens within every single exam and within every single patient interaction, and by meeting and leaning on an entire group of 50 new students. And so instead of one moment, I think it's just a journey. And we hear it a lot in our program. Trust the process. Trust the process. Trust the process. Edie Lerner [00:18:26]: And it's so true, because we are being built on a knowledge base, but also just a professional base of how to speak to somebody else from the medical field who you've never worked with before. And now you get on a call with them and they're telling you all these things about a patient that you've never met. And now you have to learn how to respond back. And so, especially being in a graduate program where we're being taught to be healthcare providers, we have to be taught interprofessional skills as well. And so not only academically, but also professionally, it's a growing process through all of those little assignments that we're given and through our interprofessional education, education and really learning how to be a healthcare provider in the field. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:09]: Have you found that you built specific relationships with faculty or peers that were especially impactful? And if so, how? Edie Lerner [00:19:17]: My best friend in the program, her name is Emily. She is my lifeline. She is my partner in crime. We studied almost every single day together throughout the program, and I truly do not think I would have made it this far without her. So we do a lot of. Of delegating in terms of who does what to make our study materials, because it takes a lot of time in some ways. So she creates all of our quizlets, and I create our charts that go to all of the different diseases as well as our practice questions that we both use. And so without her and without being able to lean on my community, I wouldn't have been able to pass my exams. Edie Lerner [00:19:55]: There's no way we bounce off each other in Ideas and questions, questions. One of my favorite things we do while we're studying is to just say, can I ask a dumb question? Because it's real and you need somebody and you need support and you need to be able to ask questions. And I think that's really important in grad school as well as our professors. I mean, all of them are super open to asking questions. But Professor Moore is someone we had throughout our entire first year of didactic education, and I really appreciated his learning stuff style in terms of sometimes he said, you're gonna have to learn this on your own, and here's the information I give you. But you're in graduate school, and so when you have questions, come to me. And we learned. And you have to learn, because when you're a provider and a PA out in the field and you're seeing a patient and you've never heard of this disease before, you're gonna have to go do research, and then you can ask questions later. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:50]: As you think back to the beginning and where you were when you first started graduate school, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school? Edie Lerner [00:21:01]: I think really, it's just that you can do it, you will do it, and if you're passionate enough, anything is possible. And I think that graduate programs and getting a graduate degree is so worth it. And personally, something that I really value in higher education and the amount of growing I've done academic, academically, and professionally is so profound. And the amount of things I learned has been amazing and incredible, and I'm just really grateful for this journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]: And again, as you look back at your graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education, Whether it's becoming a physician assistant, going to business school, going into a technological field, whatever it might be that would help them find success sooner? Edie Lerner [00:21:49]: Yeah, I think my number one is write down why you're here before you start. I wrote it down on a sheet of paper, and I pulled it out every once in a while when I needed a little bit of motivation. Going through a tough exam week, I think it's really important to know and really have an idea of the reasons you're here and the reasons you're doing this. And if those are the right reasons, then it will get you through. I also think finding success looks really different for every single person. And so being able to have a support system that can really cheer you on throughout that success. Success has been wonderful and something I've really leaned on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:28]: Well, Edie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing the ups, the downs, and everything in between. And I think from what you've shared, it's not always going to be roses, it's not always going to be easy, but it's worth it. And as you said, everybody's here, they've been admitted, they can do this. So always have to remember that. And I love that. And I just want to say good luck as you move into your next phase of the PA program, as you're getting out into the clinics and doing, doing all of this other really exciting work that you're going to be able to now take what you've been learning for the past year and a half and putting it into practice. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: I'm excited for you, but also excited to hear how it goes. And I just want to say I wish you all the best. Edie Lerner [00:23:11]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful being able to share a little bit of my journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.