Your Adrenal Fix With Dr Joel Rosen

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so they can get their health back quickly. And I’m really excited to be joined by our guest, Dr. Andrea Ferland. She is a senior scientist at the K I T Research Institute and a staff physician at the Toronto Rehab Institute. She specializes in focusing on treatments for chronic pain, including medications, complementary and alternative therapies, and rehabilitation. And I really want to discuss her new book called The Eight Steps to Conquering chronic pain, a doctor’s Guide to lifelong relief. So, Andrea, Dr. Andrea, thank you so much for being here today.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Thank you for inviting me today.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, yeah. And so I always start the podcast knowing about who we’re speaking about and why they got into their profession and maybe any health challenges or part reasons why you got into this area. So maybe you can elucidate why you are what you are. Give us some ideas.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I graduated 30 years ago from medical school in Brazil, Sao Paulo, I then emigrated to Canada 25 years ago. And I’m a physician here and I work in the pain clinic. And all that I do is help people with chronic pain. But what got me into this, I can remember and it’s very vivid in my mind, because, first of all, I chose medicine because I suffered from menstrual cramps, all of my teenagers and young adults, and they were very debilitating, very severe, didn’t get better a lot with the conventional medications got better only after I got pregnant. It got cured after I got pregnant. But before that, they were very debilitating. And every month I knew I was going to miss important things or had to go to exams and tests suffering pain. So I chose medicine to help people because I thought you know that there must be something to treat this healthiness. And then when I was in medical school, I never heard about physiatry. That’s the specialty that I chose physical medicine rehabilitation. That’s the specialty of the person with disabilities. And the reason that I chose physiatry was because I was between, you know, neurology and endocrinology. I was thinking about even what patient medicine, but I chose physiatry because I remember it was because of acupuncture. I had a patient that I was an intern, and we admitted the patient for investigation of her pain, she had been all over her body. And We admitted her so we did all kinds of investigations Inside Out upside down. As you probably know, we wanted to find something that was abnormal metabolically or endocrine or any problem. And we couldn’t then she had been all over her body. So when the physiatrist came to the consult, he came with a bunch of needles, and he stuck needles on her. Half an hour later, she was walking happily. And we discharged her the next day. So I said, Oh my god, what is this voodoo medicine? What did you do? And he explained to me in scientific terms, he said, No, you never heard about the pain system. You never heard about the opioid endogenous opioid, beta-endorphin. I said, No, I never heard about this in medical school. So he taught me that our brain is able to produce our own medicines. And with acupuncture, what they did is just release those medicines from the internal pharmacy in the brain. And I said I need to know more about this. And that’s how I got fascinated by pain. And then studying the pain system and studying how can we help people with pain all my life? I’m a scientist. So I do a lot of scientific studies as well. And yeah, so that’s what got me into pain medicine.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s excellent. So that was during, your clinical rotations. Yeah. So you decided after that I wanted to get into physiatry.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Ziaja tree and in physiatry, I, you know, physiatry we learn about rehabilitation of people with stroke and spinal cord injury, amputations, and nerve impairment, but I focus on rehabilitation of the person with chronic pain, because I see I can see how this is so debilitating, and it’s an invisible disability that people have nothing to show that is wrong. But you still can rehabilitate them and help them to conquer their pain. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 30 years since I graduated from medical school.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right um, I asked you before we got on how long did it take you to write the book and you told me about 30 years so it’s always alive. For long learning, did you end up doing your fellowship in pain or chronic pain?   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Is that Yeah. So when I came to Canada, I did a PhD here at the University of Toronto, and then a fellowship in pain medicine. So I am over-studied. Topic.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, which is a good segue into this book that you’ve written eight steps to conquering your chronic pain, a doctor’s guide to lifelong relief. So it’s a pretty bold statement to say lifelong relief, right? So but with how much you’ve studied, the way you’ve categorized the pain, and, and all the steps that you need to do, I guess I would ask you the first question, what are the three types of pain you identify three types of pain and maybe let’s springboard from that.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah. And that’s important. That’s the basis of the knowledge. So it’s important that people understand because they do receive different treatments, depending on what kind of pain the person has. So let me explain this in terms of an analogy of an alarm system of a house, okay? So the pain system is like the alarm system that you install in your house, it’s the alarm to detect danger. If you install an alarm system, you put sensors on the walls for smoke, fire, burglar breakings, water leak in the basement, etc. If you want them to make noise, and alert, send an impulse to the box on the wall, and that box on the wall will activate the office, the central office of the alarm company. And the alarm company will decide do I send the ambulance, the fire truck, or the police to this house. So we have exactly the same thing in our body, we have the pain system. So we have sensors for pain all over our body, mostly in the skin. Because that’s our how we communicate with the exterior, we have little fewer in the organs, internal organs, like muscles, heart, guts, and organs, we have fewer, but we do. So they’re there to detect danger. And then they send the signals, the equivalent of the box on the wall, that thing that we have on the wall is the spinal cord. So they all bring this sensation to the spinal cord, and the spinal cord will communicate with another neuron. But in the spinal cord, a lot of things happen there. That’s where central sensitization can happen. So in the spinal cord, you can have a block of that sensation. That’s the gate control theory that says you can block that sensation from going up to the brain. Or you can amplify central sensitization will amplify that sensation. But anyway, so when it gets to the brain, the brain is like the office of the alarm company, the brain will decide what do I do with this information? I’m receiving alarm signals from that body part. And what do I do? Do I tell the person to stop what they’re doing and then the brain will basically activate our endogenous internal own thing? Suppression pathways, like releasing opioids, the endorphins from our inner pharmacy that we have in the brain, for example, that’s what happened to the patient that I mentioned to you. When he put acupuncture needles on her activated this inner pharmacy human brain, she releases a lot of opioids, and she was fine. We know that better endorphin takes seven days to be broken and, and finish the action. So she should be okay for about seven days better than any pill, right? No pill of opioids last seven days. But anyway, so not susceptive being neuropathic pain, neuroplastic thing, nasty plastic pain, those are the three types of pain. Sorry that I don’t have better terms. I didn’t invent this. I’m just the messenger here. Don’t shoot me a nociceptive thing is when there is a fire in the house, so you do need the fire truck to come and put up the fire and once the fire stops, the alarm goes silent. Okay, so if you have a fracture, toothache and inflamed ear, you have inflammation you have appendicitis Those are good reasons for you to stop what you’re doing go seek medical care because something is broken. You broke a bone and that’s natural to hurt. neuropathic pain, which is the second type of thing is when the nerve system that carries this information has some disease. So for example, in compression of a nerve like carpal tunnel syndrome, or multiple sclerosis the person loses all the myelin around their nerve. or they have a spinal cord injury or they have a stroke. So those things affect the nerves and the pathways that carry the pain impulse. And the pain is kind of different and is not the same thing as the first one. They’re not susceptive things more inflammatory is localized. When the problem is. neuropathic pain is more burning, tingling electrical shocks, and it’s localized in the area that is innervated by that nerve. that’s those are the two types of mostly acute pain. So those two types, they have been most acutely, because after three months, six months, those injuries, they tend to heal, if there was a fracture, the fracture is healed, if there was a nerve compression, the nerve, you know, use some anti-inflammatory, and then the nerve is not compressed. So the third type of pain is equivalent is Nasi plastics, that’s an agnostic plastic because it involves plasticity. That is when those injuries have been healed, or the problem had been taken care of. So they don’t have the initial injury anymore, but the system is still making noise. So now the alarm system of the house is malfunctioning. And that’s a terrible type of pain. Because first it’s constant. It’s very loud, usually the volume is very loud so it’s usually worse than not susceptive neuropathic, and they have nothing to show that it’s broken or injured. And they go from doctor to doctor specialist, they do more MRIs, they get injections, they get opioids, they get surgeries, and they don’t get better. So you need someone to examine them and say this is not a plastic thing, because we can examine now a person and detect that it’s the pain system that is provoking. So they’re not imagining the pain, the pain is quite real. And it’s not in their head. It’s not emotional, it’s not psychological, the pain is quite real. It’s just that the origin of the pain is now the malfunctioning of the pain system. It’s not the fire so the house is not on fire, although that’s how they feel. Because it’s so constant.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a great answer. I love the analogy. I’m big into analogies. And I would imagine that the terminology is relatively new, is it not? That the because with specialties, if they are not finding the cause of the problem, and it’s a note said no see plastic type of generator? I guess the first step in helping this is in the first step of retraining your pain system. Is that correct?   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah, yeah. And let me tell you something,, in my experience, most people may have a combination of one and three, two, and three, one and two, or all three, right? So that’s why they need to be to have a good investigation. And they need to see a doctor to make this diagnosis. So don’t try to diagnose yourself isn’t all chronic pains are just nasty plastic, there might be something that is wrong, that could be treated, but the Nasik class component may be making noise in the background. And then it’s so hard for you to find the nociceptive neuropathic if the house like if the alarm of the house is making a lot of noise and very loud, it’s hard for you to know if it is really a fire somewhere here there. But in a good physical examination, and when we talk to the patients that those kinds of pain become clear. And again, the treatment is different. Because you just said that for Nasik’s plastic pain. You don’t do the same things that you do for acute pain, there is no susceptor because they will not work. An example is opioids, opioids. You know we are in the middle of here in Canada and the United States we are in the middle of a crisis because, with so many people who suffer from chronic pain, it’s one in five adults that have chronic pain, some type of chronic pain. physicians want to help them and healthcare professionals don’t want to see them suffering. So it is easy to prescribe an opioid because if you think okay, this person has pain if I give them an opioid, I would remove their pain so why not give it? The problem is if the person has predominantly Nasik plastic pain, you can make that pain transform into a Fibromyalgia spread. Fibromyalgia is a pain that is spread to the body and that’s the poster child of nasty plastic pain because we know that the pharmacy the inner pharmacy in the brain of people with Fibromyalgia is not working properly. So they cannot activate those opioids endogenous adequately, they have a lot of central sensitization. And we know that if you give opioids it’s almost like putting gasoline on the fire because you’re going to spread and make this pain become more chronic and more Nasik plastic. So you really need to be careful to whom you prescribe and do interventions like this.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And I’m glad you’ve done the work because it really is untangling the ball of yarn and pulling out and under uncovering, which is the generator. And I guess that’s where the difference between chronic and acute pain comes in how the central processing or the plasticity of the brain and the limbic Center and the emotions we play on it, and how that creates that perfect, vicious cycle. So maybe tell us about that and unpack that for us.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Absolutely. And you just got it, the visual cycle is what mainly causes the disability related to chronic pain. Because the personnel, they are afraid of the pain. So pain now becomes the stressor in their life. They may tell you and I’m not afraid of my pain. I know this is okay, I’ll have pain for the rest of my life. But the brain is still being alerted that something’s wrong. And the brain needs to interpret what is going on. When the brain cannot, then when the mind can’t interpret. Listen, I’m feeling this pain. And you’re telling me that everything is alright, where is this coming from? It generates a cascade of events. And as you probably know this better than I don’t, it generates all activates the HPA axis. And the adrenaline goes crazy cortisol hormones and stress levels go wild. And then the person just reinforced because they learn it’s a lot of our behaviors, almost all of our behaviors are learned behaviors. You learn by practicing. So they learned that, okay, I have pain. So if I don’t move, I don’t trigger pain. And maybe pain is a bad thing, I should not be feeling pain. So if I don’t move, I feel less pain. Therefore I need to move less and do less. So they stopped going places they stopped doing things that are normal parts of life. And that just creates a more sedentary life, more bad nutrition, weight gain, hypertension, depression, and sleep problems, because now they have more time to do what sleep Sometimes they have time for some of my patients, they take long naps in the afternoon, I take three hours nap in the afternoon, and they go crazy, I say, don’t do that, because that’s the best recipe for you to have a very bad quality of sleep at night when you do need good quality sleep. So the vicious cycle, the fear behaviors, avoidance, don’t move, sleeping more taking pills, they like to pop pills because we are in a society where we want quick fixes. They don’t want to do a lot of things for themselves. They don’t want to take charge of their life. So my book is about lifestyle modifications, you know, that’s where I want them to go be free to take charge of their life because that, in my opinion, that’s the only way that they can be rehabilitated if they start doing things for themselves.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, I think you were blessed with your clinical experience to see that, versus someone like myself, where I would do a lot of mechanical support for injuries. And some people would get better and some people wouldn’t. And I realized, well, there’s got to be something else going on. And not only just the emotional component, I was fortunate in my second degree to have a psychology degree. So I understood there is a connection, but also just in the metabolic, what’s going on with this person and what else is going on in their body. And you were fortunate to get that going into it. Did that guide you in terms of making more of a clinical decision before you put in the interventions? And I guess that’s the question I’m asking.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: If I understand well, your question. So, yes, so we can separate the mind from the body. That’s one thing if we try to separate them, and if we try to just read the mind or just treat the body, especially for cramping. You can’t because we have symptom physical symptoms that are an expression of an emotion. An example of this is tears. I always tell my patients tears you know right in front of your eyes. We can’t hide, we usually can hide tears because that’s the first place that people look at us. You can have tears of joy, tears of sadness, tears of emotion. So our body expresses. So when we talk about our metabolism when we talk about it, the other thing that I love, a passion of mine is nutrition. I think nutrition is essential for fighting chronic pain, especially chronic pain. We know so much now about nutrition that we didn’t know before. And nutrition is so integrated with our metabolism with our gut bacteria, we’re now studying a lot of, you know, the importance of our, you know, all these billions of bacteria that we have in our gut, they do amazing things, they control our mood, because our production of serotonin if you have the right composition of this bacteria, you may have good, you know, pain-free life. But if you have the wrong composition, you may have fibromyalgia, we know this. It’s amazing. And then people can do transplant, fecal transplant from one person that has healthy bacteria to another person. So that’s another story. But so they’re all indicated. They’re all connected to hormones and diet. We can the problem is, Joel, our medical system is very good at helping people with acute problems. That’s what it would say, here in Canada, we are very efficient in fixing someone who is wrong. Like, if there’s an injury, let’s do surgery, if there’s a fracture, let’s cast and bye-bye. But when a person has a recurrent, chronic disease, the system is not prepared for this person, and the system gets overwhelmed. And we have primary care providers, family doctors, nurse practitioners who have five minutes with each Vale, how can I expect them to do you know, a full assessment of all of this in five minutes? So I feel for those patients who need a full assessment and deserve a full assessment. But sometimes it’s really hard to get.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting that you’re talking about it in this aspect because I don’t think the mind-body connection in traditional medicine is typically appreciated, as well as nutrition. And I do see that the tides are changing and the medicine 3.0 is hopefully coming in. And what I’m surprised about Andrea is the fact that it sort of takes the P m&r physiatry specialty to really lead the charge. Maybe you can segue into what are the eight steps because I don’t think the eight steps would just be applicable to chronic pain per se, it’d be applicable to chronic illness or chronic anything that’s chronic in nature, because those eight fundamentals are really applied across all spectrums for more chronic like presentation. So maybe it was, yeah.   Dr. Andrea Furlan: And the way that I chose the steps and align them down, you know, they are like steps, climbing a mountain and conquering a mountain. And the ones that are put at the base of the mountain are the ones that I think if people do first, it puts them in a much better position to do the other ones that I asked them to do later in the mountain. So I started with the first step is retraining the pain system. And how do you you know, retrain your brain it’s not rocket science, you know, this is quite simple. It is first learning that you have a pin system, learning that there is a possibility you’re paying, you’re paying is not so plastic and you need the same way that you form those synapses in the plasticity, you can undo them. So you can kind of undo those synapses and disconnect that alarm system of the house that is going rogue just because it is you know making noise. And once you stop that you can now listen, okay? The nociceptive pain is there. Okay? The neuropathic pain is there and go treat that thing. So that takes the noise out of the house. So that’s the first step. And how do you do that there are many different I don’t have time here to explain to your audience, all the possibilities, but one example is yoga. Because yoga involves the mind and body. Usually, it’s mind and body exercises, breathing exercises, activation of the percent sympathetic nervous system, going for a walk, meditation, and mindfulness, those kinds of things are excellent to retrain the brain system. The second step is your emotions. So I talk about controlling your emotions, but that’s more like knowing your emotions and knowing that emotions have an influence on your body on your pain because you If you deny those emotions and Oh, my pain is not affected my emotions, we have a problem because they do. And you’re not acknowledging that makes, it hard for me to help you, too. Because if we can help, you know that stress reaction, the problem that you had with your husband, you know, the situation with your family, the financial situation, the angriness, the frustrations that you have, they affect you, they’re affecting your pain. If you don’t take that out of the equation, I can get in to help you with the other kinds of things. So then we talk about sleep in sleep is extremely important. We talk about nutrition, we talk about exercises, we talk about medications, one of the steps higher on the mountain is how do you use medications? How do you talk to your physician about your pain and your pain medications? Do you know what medications you are taking, Do you know what they are for? The other step also is people around you, you need to learn how to communicate with them. Because we now have a lot of evidence that the context where the person is affects their suffering from pain. So you give an example. So you probably heard that when people come to a pain clinic, we ask them to give a number to pain zero is no pain. 10 is the worst pain of all that you can ever imagine. When people give us a score like 789 10 It doesn’t have a this is for chronic pain, maybe not for acute pain. For chronic pain, it doesn’t have a correlation with how many injuries are legion in the body. What they are telling us is how much they’re suffering from that thing. If they say my dog, my things are nine out of 10. It’s because they’re suffering a lot. And they’re feeling that weight. And it’s like, I can’t live in this house anymore. It’s driving me crazy because it’s so loud and it’s all the time and nobody can hear they think I’m crazy. The context, the social context that the person leaves can make the ping better or worse, that’s suffering. So for example, in the laboratory, they change it who is around the person with chronic pain. So if they bring a person with a smile, hamper at an ice cream person, that suffering decreases, so the person in the laboratory will say, Oh, my pain is not so bad. So three, four, or five. But if they show a video or pictures of angry people, people who are nasty, and Aino saying horrible things and treating kids badly, they will say Oh, my pain is 789. So changing the color. They did this in the laboratory, they showed red collars to people with pain. Reg reminds us of fire, ambulance of danger blockage. So they rated their high napping higher. They show blue collars that remind us of sky and ocean peace and they report less so the context around us can increase this suffering or decrease the suffering. So we need to be mindful of that. Because if someone comes to me and says I’m having a nine out of 10 Ping, am I tempted to give them an injection a surgery? an opioid pill? Yes, because I and they’re crying in front of me. And they said they really suffering. But if I know that the context where their life is they feel they’re alone. They’re lonely. The kids, don’t talk to the kids for 20 years. They don’t have any friends, they lost their job. You see the difference. So their nine out of 10 is a consequence of what’s going on around them. And the last step in the book, The eighth step is once they get to the top of the mountain, their goals leave their life this is something that people can’t believe that they can do conquering the mountain doesn’t mean that mountain is gone that it’s going to disappear.   The mountain is still there, so your pain may still be there. But you conquered means you’re paying in the back side of your life is not controlling you anymore. You can live your life you can meet your goals, and you can enjoy your life. Your life doesn’t need to stop because you have chronic pain. It is possible to do this to people sometimes they don’t believe and that’s why I have a lot of testimonials and stories in my book I’ve seen this in my 30 years of exposure means I’ve seen many people who tell me, Dr. Furlanetto, I don’t need you anymore. I came here to discharge you. Because I still have chronic pain, but it’s really not bothering me anymore. I’m not suffering from it anymore. I have my tools, I know how to handle a flare-up. And they are prepared to tackle the next mounting, which could be cancer, it could be another chronic disease or depression. It could be another episode, another different kind of pain. So but they now are more resilient. That’s what I hope people can achieve.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s wonderful. I am really moved by the body of research and the information that you’re bringing I reading Peter at Tear’s book right now and talking about the 3.0 in medicine and how we get people to live with their illness, but not die from it, and increase their health span. And I think that’s exactly what you’re doing. I found that to be true as well with our patient faces. I’ll ask him. Okay, not that I have a magic wand. But if I did, and we were able to achieve what we wanted to achieve, what would that look like? And all of them are? A lot of them are? Well, I don’t give myself permission. I’m not there yet. I don’t even think about it. I don’t even know. And I think that’s part of the reason we don’t wait until we’re ready. Before we do it. We have to have that mindset before we go into it, but I like that it’s in the mountain and of the hierarchy as well. I guess the question would be to you, Andrea, is how does this fit into the model? That’s not quite there yet? How, especially with other specialties? I mean, I could see chronic pain and people that are presenting, but how does it change how services are provided? I mean, it’s great that you have this book in this resource, and people could do it on their own. But if doctors or the healthcare system, depending on what country you’re in, and third-party reimbursement aren’t necessarily for or against whatever, I guess what’s the utopia of this? How do you see this fitting in?   Dr. Andrea Furlan: I thought about this and I have an answer. Because I had the same thought he said, I think Joe, the people that are best equipped to help this patient with chronic pain to apply these eight steps are not healthcare professionals are other people’s peers who have conquered their own mountings. So let me back up a little bit. You need a good physician or healthcare professional to make the diagnosis and tell you this is the type of pain you have. You have nociceptive neuropathic Nasi plastic one of the three or two or three, make the diagnosis be there if they need an injection, if they need surgery, if they need a prescription, you are available to them. But I don’t think the professionals especially doctors, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, we are so busy. We need to train peers, people who had conquered that chronic pain mounting, should take these people by the hand and coach them up the mounting. That’s my philosophy. That’s where I would like to go. And there are many peer-to-peer groups here in Canada, I hope in the United States, you also have those. But in United here in Canada, we do have associations and I don’t mention them in my book and the resources. I have links to those many of those groups in the United Kingdom in Canada. And they have people who can affiliate with them and start going to those meetings. They usually are in groups but some of those people, also do one on one sessions. But I think this is the model that would be best in my opinion, because I would like to be coached by someone who had the experience. I like to see them as a role model for me if I have a disease, I say Okay, tell me where to go. How do I go? How did you do on this day? How what did you think when this was so hard for you to do? And actually, that’s what a lot of groups in Canada, they’re using my book to discuss in those groups. So I hope we’ll have many more people to be coaching their peers.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s great. I think Do you think it’s possible that with the intake and part of the diagnosis criteria that you have sort of alerts to know that there are some yellow I wouldn’t call them red flags, but yellow flags with all of these?   Dr. Andrea Furlan: I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. And so they need a checkup with their healthcare professionals regularly. You know, because maybe during this process that you were trying to conquer your mountain maybe there is a thyroid that now is out of work and you need to treat the thyroid or you need or you develop rheumatoid arthritis and you do need treatment for that. So, they are not immune to a nociception of neuropathic pain. But if everything is okay, you know, checkups with your health care professionals to make sure that you are is to you know, okay to continue doing those steps because those steps are a lifestyle. And you don’t need a healthcare professional to teach you to eat well, to sleep well, to exercise, to socialize, to get out of your comfort zone to talk about your emotions to do journaling, meditation, mindfulness, you can do this with people who are not in the healthcare field.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s spoken from someone who knows how the system is run and not necessarily going to knock over the, you know, the Goliath of the medicine world. But I would say that it would be nice if it was aligned to support them in those areas. But you know, what the bottom line is, it comes down to the patient, right? I mean, the patient, I think you and I would agree that the majority of them don’t want to feel this way if not all of them. And they really are looking for solutions. And they’re not crazy. And they haven’t been given the proper insight into everything that they’ve been doing. And this is a fantastic research resource to be able to look into and say, Hey, there’s more lifestyle, emotional responsibility. And I haven’t written down here actually fear of pain equals disability confidence and activity equals recovery. I think that kind of sums it up right there. So awesome information. I was really impressed with the book, Andrea, I always like to ask my guests, we’re sort of winding down here. What do you wish you would have known because the title of our podcast is your adrenal fixed and teaching adults that are Exhausted and burnt out? That if they would have had some kind of pain generator, acute, they would have been headed towards that crunch? chronicity? What would you have told your younger self that you wish you would have known then that you know now that might have accelerated your learning curve or given you wisdom prior to having to go through the growing pains? But what would have been some words of advice you would have told yourself?   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yes, so so much advice that I could give myself my younger self, I would say, when we see people with chronic pain, I think in my early years, I may have thought that I could fix everybody. And here I am, I just graduated, I know all of the science, I then did a PhD and I got a degree. So let me fix you. I think I tried with many of my patients initially, let me do this acupuncture, let me do this injection, let me do this. But I am knowing now I am much less, I’d say confident in myself that I can fix someone. I probably because I see people that they fix themselves. And, once they make the change in their mind. And I don’t know, really, if it was something that I said or something that they read anywhere. They change their life, they approach life and pain differently. They change in front of my eyes. And it could be like they need a change to eating healthier because they realize that eating junk, processed food was not getting anywhere. And another person could be, you know, my sleep is a mess. And I will take care of this when they come back to me. They are different people, they are more awake, they are more talkative, they’re happier. So each person is different. But I think I lost my pride, that I can fix them. I can help I can teach them everything I know. But a lot of chronic people, they have the answers inside of themselves. So I just need to let them know that there are these possibilities, and they need to do the majority of the work not me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s a great answer. I mean, you know, the root of the word doctor is to teach right? And I think when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I think you know, I always ask that question with a little bit of hesitancy because had you not gone through that learning curve and that smack in the head of you’re not going to fix them all. You wouldn’t have written this book to be able to give them the power to see this teacher help the student learn. So I think this is your way of helping to mold, the beautiful artist inside the body that’s ready to come out when they’re looking for it, so kudos to you. The book is called eight steps to conquering your chronic pain. It’s a doctor’s guide to lifelong relief. And you can find it wherever books are sold. And you also whereas other places, I mean, you got a beautiful silver YouTube thing behind you. So where can they find you and get more information if they already don’t know who you are?   Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah, so I do have a YouTube channel. It’s my name, Dr. Dot Andrea Forland. And I have a website that is Dr. D o c t o r, Andrea forland.com. And there they have links where they can order the book, but it has you said everywhere where books are sold, they can find a book. And my channel is just my name on YouTube.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. And I thank you for your contributions, and I look forward to hearing about future successes. So thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me and talk to your audience today. Thank you.   To check out Dr. Andrea’s book, click here  [https://amzn.to/44RMiV9] The post Unlock a Pain-Free Life Here are 8 Steps to Defeat Chronic Pain [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com/unlock-a-pain-free-life/] appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com].

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their house so that they can get their health back quickly. And we’re joined with part with Sean Bean in part two, of unlocking the metabolic bottlenecks. And I was so intrigued with all the information, Shawn said last time that I have plenty of notes to follow up on and ask Shawn a little more in-depth questions. Shawn is committed to helping people find answers to pivotal questions that have not yet been asked. He has an innovative approach that combines conventional with integrative modalities. And due to his own circumstances, he has an innate ability to evaluate a case beyond one dimension, but rather multiple dimensions at once. So Shawn, thank you so much for being here.   Shawn Bean: Once again. Thank you for having me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m really excited, John, so that you brought up a couple of things in full transparency that I’m aware of, but I don’t really incorporate as much as I really like to, and given today’s presentation with people that are stressed, and there are EMFs, and mold and COVID. And perfect storms have inflammatory reactions, I would love to sort of piggyback off from what we stopped, and talked about last time, and maybe you could just tell me or tell the listeners Is that what you’re seeing now, Shawn is just sort of the perfect storm of, of these variables, environmentally overlapping with genetics and creating just such a pandemic, pandemic, if you will, or a tidal wave of people that are dealing with health challenges.   Shawn Bean: In my clinical practice, what we’re seeing is we’re seeing the overlap of the underlying cause is going into the nonalcoholic, fatty liver, nonalcoholic fatty liver, I feel has been an under-diagnosed and I feel a probably from the looking at the organic acid test and other clinical data, you’re probably looking at estimate about 7% of Americans have an underlying nonalcoholic fatty liver that is just not being addressed. And when this starts being addressed, people start getting better. And the reason I started bringing that up is as you mentioned before, the phenol pathway. What phenols are, are basically alcohol. And what happens is, due to our genetics due to the environment, our bodies are just not breaking these down. It’s stressing phase one and phase two of the liver. That’s why when we look at the organic acid test we used to see high hip uric acid or maybe low hip uric acid. And it really depends upon you know, the way I explained to my clients is listen, the trash man does not come around fast enough to check trash out. Okay, usually your face one splashing your face too slowly. And in that situation, it usually means that they’re your bile flows all jammed up, or that you’re not your conduit conjugating toxic bile acids because of the small bacterial overgrowth that may have precipitated from the mold and mycotoxins. So when we look at this, we look at the overlying under the overlying cause is these phenols. And phenols had similar similar chemistry to alcohol. So when I’m starting to see the presentation of the nonalcoholic fatty liver, I’m looking at, you know, at the phenols because you’re seeing that just not the body does not the mycotoxins but also your endogenous bacteria in your gut, produce phenols. And we do know that unfortunately, phenol linic acid is one of the most powerful antifungals there is. So one of the things we have to think about is, as a statement I use listen to the body, it will tell you what’s going on. Now, oftentimes, we have these adaptive shifts in the microbiome, what we think is pathogenic is actually trying to help us out. But unfortunately, due to the world we live in, we’re getting bottlenecked. And sometimes when you see these rises phenols. There’s often an underlying cause of a mycotoxin or of a fungal issue going on with Candida because the body knows it needs to produce phenol Linic acid. So what’s the best way? I’m going to shift the microbiome I’m going to raise up one level to compensate for what’s going on. So the bodies may be trying to help us out. We see this a lot in hydrogen sulfide overgrowths. That’s why one of my theories is the reason sulfuric fans help. What do sulfuric fans do? They increase glutathione. They help you to reduce, they help you to keep glutathione in its proper form. So we do know that hydrogen sulfide goes into sulfate. And then sulfate goes into. It’s a building block for glutathione. But it’s also a building block for the glycoproteins in your gut to heal the leaky gut. That’s why glutathione can often sometimes heal the leaky gut. That’s why na di now I just found an article showing that NAD reboots the whole microbiome. It was an amazing article that I found, but the underlying mechanism is, is the body’s trying to help us out and we’re going into this kill mode, kill mode kill mode. Now this kill, no kill kill, may have worked 10 years ago, but the whole playing field has changed due to the genetics due to the environmental toxins. This is why you know your sleep by our route or your you know, your mycotoxins are going to increase at a significant level as Dr. Klinghardt presented. So we have to factor in the other thing that I’m doing now, with a lot of my COVID is I use all kinds of modalities. And one of those modalities is to desensitize the body to the phenols. So there are products out there that are homeopathic that work similarly to LDI low-dosage immunotherapy. So I’m now starting to bring in these Homeopathics to desensitize the immune response to these mycotoxins so by decreasing the immune system response, the body’s not going into these mast cell activations that we’re seeing. And there has been documentation through COVID that the salvage pathway, which is one of the pathways that you use tryptophan to create the NAD is not working right. And this is why exercise is encouraged because there’s a pathway called an ng Nante ANP MPT that is needed to synthesize NAD. Now, these mycotoxins, what they’re doing is number one, they’re shutting down that pathway for synthesis, then they’re increasing the conversion from NAD to NADH. So you’re just not synthesizing it, but you’re not able to recycle it properly. So these organisms are not, they’re highly intelligent. They’re almost like from another planet, and I would consider the mold a parasite to some degree, because, it changes the environment in order for us to survive. And will, and it knows exactly what systems to get in order to do that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Sorry. To interrupt. I was gonna say it’s always I always feel like it’s like matrix in the body, you know, in terms of understanding, okay, if we can shut down the recycling system, or we can shut down the communication system, or we can shut down the generation system, then we’re taking out the biggest assets in the body to be able to take us down. And going into that understanding. I guess the question would be, and I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to take your thought away. With that being said, Shawn, maybe take us through, you did mention the three types of proper analysis that you looked at you look, you mentioned last time with the nonalcoholic fatty liver. But then you also said in that framework, when you look at Palabora, or B three deficiency and traumatic brain injury, that’s when you start to look at and reverse engineer, the microbiome, the endocrine system, the nutritional deficiencies, the environmental toxins, the brain. So maybe let’s build on what we talked about last time and explain how the B three in the TBI comes into play with traumatic brain injury.   Shawn Bean: What happens is the body will shift when the body’s going into an inflammatory state on the organic acid test, you’ll see the five h i A and the Quinn ratio start to shift. When that starts to shift that’s moving, that’s taking your tryptophan and moving it into the potential NAD pathway to try to help out. So that’s an indication that hey, your body’s under oxidative stress on trying to move and get NAD there. Now over time, what happens is the second pathway that kicks in is the lactic acid pathway. The lactic acid pathway is often the backup system for when the NAD may get exhausted. And then what happens is, as that pathway stays on track, you’ll go into NAD deficiency. Oftentimes we’re starting to see from looking at past organic acid tests, you’re starting to see a shift from the five H going low to five h is going high. And that’s usually an indication of your NAD systems are exhausted. Now you’re going into mast cell response. I’ve seen it multiple times. And that’s very common in autistic kids because it looks like an MA, it looks like a slow Mao because you’ll see, you know unless they’re doing five HTP, which I haven’t seen in a lot of my clients do, but we’re seeing that jump and serotonin and that drop. And what’s happening there is your body is no longer getting any getting NAD and I feel that the phenols and also the micro, it’s very common people that have mycotoxins that have triggered into the coat mast cell activation because we do know that environmental exposures and mycotoxins can trigger that that mass activation. And when that happens, we see that pattern. And this is where, when your NAD is really, really low, this is where sometimes looking on like a Dutch test to see where the methylation panel is, okay? When you’re looking on the Dutch test, oftentimes, we’ll see on a mechanism of mold, you’ll see high methylation, the reason being is what’s the way you get methylation down. And indeed, okay, use nice cinnamon and ice the burners off. So I’m seeing starting to see that correlation with the organic acid test. And then you’ll see the DHA level often on the high side. And then you’ll see the DHEAs on the low side. That’s usually an indication of a sulfation pathway, which is salt to a one. So up to a one also backs into the glucuronidation pathway. So this goes back into the phenol sulfotransferase pathway. And when you start to see that happen, that’s where I tend to use calcium for the glucose rate. The calcium, group rate works great because the classroom glucose rate takes the calcium group rate as a backup system for the glutathione system. Because a lot of people have not done a lot of good on glutathione. I’ll use Casselman glue great to give it a break. And the calcium glue. Great. What it does is it helps to reduce the phenols. It helps reduce those salicylates and helps to reduce the histamines, it helps to reduce a lot of the other toxins, even glyphosates. happen, then that glutathione can take a break, we get stuff caught up, and then go then they can provide then they can go forward with the glutathione.   Dr. Joel Rosen: All right, so So I mean, from the way you describe it. And from what I know, it really is sort of like we said that matrix when the body’s under siege, it has all these different pathways that are being upregulated or downregulated, depending on what the specific microorganism is or what the environmental trigger is combined with what the genetic makeup looks like. And basically, I always say it’s kind of like a Plinko board where you drop the Plinko. And then it depends on where it goes down. Right. So so as far as that being said, You did mention it in the last conversation we had, which I thought was interesting. And I always say it’s Bob Miller who is a big mentor of mine. And he says how we learned everything we really need to know in Goldilocks and the Three Bears where you don’t want to have too much of something and you don’t want to have too little of something, you really want to be living in that bell-shaped curve. And you mentioned with a patient of yours that they were too alkaline, and the body wanted to be acidic. And I would suppose that certain reactions occur at certain pH levels. And if you’re not getting into that fine line balance between Goldilocks and the Three Bears zone, then your body’s not optimally functioning. So I guess the question I’m asking you here is, how do we play that fine line, especially as a practitioner knowing Okay, well, I got to give my glutathione on a break, but at the same time, I need it. And that’s just one example, I guess, of how you as the practitioner, determine what the perfect pulsing or the perfect being able to stay at that top of the bell-shaped curve looks like.   Shawn Bean: When you’re trying to optimize somebody can get really, really complex because myself and about three other practitioners were doing glutathione injections during the wintertime, and we were doing amazing. Okay, then for whatever reason, summertime started to come. And then we started to have reactions to it. Well, what we figured, and we couldn’t stand to be out of the sun, what we finally determined, or what I figured out was, we were lacking NAD. Because what happens is the sunlight was used, we didn’t have enough sunlight, so we didn’t have, we’re storing our NAD. Now, what happens when we’re going out into the sun, we’re getting reactions very similar to histamine response, or what appears to be an adrenal insufficiency. So what we did was we stopped the glutathione, we added in an MN and we noticed that through muscle testing and through different, you know, experimentations, that we could perceive the glutathione, even though everything else was, you know, non-changed. So just the indication of the Sun was enough to throw her body off. But we were able to under-reduce them, we were able to figure out the mechanism of control. And that’s still to this day, and all of us have suspected to have COVID.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, so So do you think that that was probably in part because of the sun exposure and sulfation and increasing your endogenous production? So yeah, just a quick question, because I have a patient that I’m really struggling with. And I didn’t intend on doing this on our podcast. But I do look at a lot of the blueprint of genetics. And we do look at it as sort of the lay of the land. And then obviously, looking at the metabolic pathways and how the genes are expressing but basically, the genetics is a map and take me through if someone is doing too much NAD, what side of the valley, where you’re doing too much where they’re just exhausted that weight loss resistance, they’re not moving the needle. What do you think’s happening there, when you swing the pendulum too much on on the side of NAD, too much going on there.   Shawn Bean: And AMD, if you’re an over methylator, people with Na do very well, there is a technique that they utilize adding in methyl groups. If people are taking an mn, and they’re doing well and then have negative responses, that usually means that they need a little methyl support. So using things like TMG, methyl folate, Sammy, etc, could be enough just to keep them going in the right direction. And that’s a technique that has been noted for many years, even since 2016. Because that’s why NAD is nice cinnamon is used in schizophrenics because usually, schizophrenics are over-methylated.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? And explain to the listener, because I always have a tough time, maybe it’s a little bit of my dyslexia as well, in terms of determining depending on who the point of reference is what over methylation means, right? So you have too many methyl groups on the highway and they’re not being used, or you’re, you’re running down the transsulfuration pathway, and your homocysteine is too low. I mean, explain sort of what an over-methylation looks like, because I don’t like that term too much anymore. And more than I like this regulated methylation, right, but it’s really hard to identify.   Shawn Bean: That’s why I like to, I think the Dutch test does a good indicator of that, it gives you at least somewhat of an idea.   Dr. Joel Rosen: with phase two or with?   Shawn Bean: With the methylation, because, you know, your estrogens have to be properly methylated.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So if this if the ratio is very low, and it looks like it’s in the weak range, that person would be an under methylator, is what you’re saying?   Shawn Bean: Yeah, and normally with under meth laters I would do is I would really add extreme caution. And specifically when like niacin, because they will, you know, people might feel good or nice, and then all sudden they feel like crap. That’s because they just used up their mental stores.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. But if they’re getting it in a NN or NMS, or they’re actually getting NAD injections, and it’s not necessarily niacin on its own, is it still chopping up all those methyl groups?   Shawn Bean: There’s a possibility for that because there’s, there’s camp thought out there that too much NAD can take Bigger cancer cells, I would have to talk to Dr. Mudiay. About that. Because a lot of people’s diets and stuff are going to be getting enough from their diet for the general population. It’s when you start messing and trying to balance everything out and trying to be healthy. You know, what’s the saying Help to secure this, what I’m seeing is the healthiest people are the sickest people. That’s because they’re always trying to do in this diet and that diet and this diet. And by doing so they’re unintentionally throwing their body out of balance, you know, because I’m going to do this diet or carnivore diet and like, you can do a carnivore diet, but I wouldn’t do it any longer than four weeks tops. Okay, use an elimination diet, or do you have a person who’s doing a carnivore diet? And next thing, you know, you know, they’re, they were choline-deficient, or their gallbladder wasn’t working, right? Or that they didn’t have any lipase. So they end up clogging up their gallbladder and their liver because they’re doing this high-fat diet or ketogenic diet with the ticked-up liver.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, I’m so so do you find then that there’s a big swing, in that sense, I’ve kind of get where you’re going. And when Dr. Lynch talked about, if someone has too many methyl groups on you can swing them pretty quickly and give them nice, but then at the same time, if you give them too much nice, you got to bring in more methyl groups and kind of the same thing with implementing, like, a carnivore diet, you go from one extreme to the next, and they’re never really sitting at the top of the bell-shaped curve? Or is that kind of what you’re seeing happening?   Shawn Bean: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, generally, for an ad, it’s relatively safe. For the most part, it’s when people start, you know, that’s why oftentimes, I may start people off with like, nice in a mind, or have them take nm N, and maybe take a two to one ratio of nm N, with like TMG, just as a safety mechanism, right, then, you know, then maybe the other thing that I’ve learned is, is you have to do things in order. Because if you have some, you know, a lot of the formulas now have sirtuins added to it, which are the, you know, the resveratrol, with the TMG. With an M, it’s like, there are just too many variables going on in there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I always say that supplement companies get greedy, right? They try to do too many things in one supplement, and the body doesn’t work that way.   Shawn Bean: No, it doesn’t. And you know, what, what works for one person doesn’t work for another one. You know, that’s why when I make my recommendations, it’s you’re not taking a B complex, all individualize. You know, I’ll start off with like, B to at high dosages, you know, 400 milligrams of b two, and maybe 10 milligrams of like, riboflavin, high phosphate? Because there’s a big debate about that, you know, and I’m beginning to wonder if for whatever reason, there are more transport issues, which is riboflavin transport proficiency, that starting to come about? Because why are we seeing all these riboflavin deficiencies in the organic acids almost across the board? You know, the same way with carnitine, we’re seeing carnitine across the board deficient?   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, I do see that a lot to the SLC gene in that area. So So real quick, then as far as one of the things I really liked, as you mentioned, the four tests that you typically do, if necessary, and I love the idea, you kind of mentioned how you want to get out of the idea of over-testing. But then at the same time, you did mention the concept of knowing what where you’re digging into, and yet you’re not just digging into a guess a graveyard, but like, where there’s cement all laid down. So getting a lay of the land. And you mentioned the Omega quant the oat test, the Dutch test and my Michael labs, and the Omega quant test with how important that is with Lou trains and PG one and PG to PG three and maybe kind of break that down for Shawn because I’d love to hear your your expertise on that.   Shawn Bean: When you’re starting to look at the Omega Quan what it does is it gives you a cellular indication of where your Omegas are going. And what happens is we’re starting to see a pile up in the DHA because when you take in a supplement that’s a two-to-one ratio of EPA to DHA. You’re expected to see that you’re expecting Good to see that ratio in your red blood cells. So you suspect, I mean, so what happens is, is due to the cell danger response, or you know, if you check your genetics, it might be dancin’, PAMPs, the DHA is piling up, and it’s actually causing no mitochondrial dysfunction. So one of the additions to the EPA, AAA ratio I added in, I added my own EPA to DHA ratio. Because if you’re, if you look at a Mayor Quan, you should see a one-to-one ratio, you’re taking cod liver oil. The problem is, we’re seeing five times the amount of DHA versus EPA in the cell, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Because the Omega index is only looking at the two together, correct?   Shawn Bean: But it’s looking is looking at the ALA to EPA, the DHA, and the next step down from because what happens is DHA can what we call retro convert, DHA can actually retro convert back into EPA. The mechanism by which that’s done is still undetermined. I can’t find it. I do think it’s based on potential clinical trials. And we do know that the phenols and Leuco trains have a direct relationship. That’s why when you look, oftentimes, when you’re ALA is always I’ve seen probably 1000 Omega clients, and out of that 1000, probably less than 5% of them actually had an ALA normal, and then it comes down. Because what happens is the ALA is known as a parental ESA, it gives birth to EPA DHA. But I always joke with my clients, it looks like sleep, it looks like cellular incest. It’s like the children, there are more children than there are parents. But if you look at the LMA, which is the Omega six, it starts at a high ratio and comes down. That’s how nature is supposed to be. But the ALA, for what apparent reason is most like is pretty much all deficient. In the majority of the cases, I think that has to do with an inflammatory response. It’s hyper-converting.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. So when you’re doing the plus tests that are you doing the comp, the complete test, or.   Shawn Bean: I’m just doing the American comp complete, the complete.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, so the for those that might not know what it is, it’s a blood spot test. And you can just have that mailed to your home. And it’s really a price effect of $100. And you’re looking at your Omega three index, you’re looking at your Omega three to six to three index. So you’re looking that’s what you’re talking about when you when you’re looking at that are you making up your own references based on the complete Omega profile that you get with the complete because I think you have over 24 Omega three, six, and saturated model saturated, unsaturated sick. So yeah, give me an idea of what you’re doing there.     Shawn Bean: What I did was I cross-referenced over five or 600 different lab clients, and I did the Omega quant the organic acid test, and the Dutch test. And what I did was by looking at the Omega quant I foreshadowed what was going to be on the other test. And the reason was as you could see when the saturated fats hit a certain mark that the cell membranes stiffened up as a protective mechanism. And when it starts to stiffen up, that usually means it’s trying to protect itself from something. So once it hits a certain like 30, you know on the Mega quant, and usually when it’s over 37% that usually tells me that you’re dealing with some type of like environment, more like a mycotoxin or line versus a heavy metal.   Dr. Joel Rosen: What was 37% Sorry, I missed what that was.   Shawn Bean: When you look at the sack. When you look at the total saturated fat on the inmate your client wants to get over 37 cell membranes stiffening up, okay? maxims because the body pool saturated fats into stiffness cell membranes so it doesn’t want anything else to come in. That’s right, then what happens is that usually indicates that there could be a potential mycotoxin or line I don’t really see in heavy metals as much. Okay, I’ve I don’t see that. So and then what happens is, is people are coming in and it’s like they have the beginnings of diabetes. By using the omega one you can foreshadow the beginning of diabetes, probably five to 10 years ahead of the game.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Because what Paul Medic said, or you’re saying is the PA medic?   Shawn Bean: Yeah, exactly. Because medic acid is usually an indication of the severity of insulin resistance at the cellular level within the liver. Because you could have liver insulin resistance, you can have muscle insulin resistance, this is usually an indication of the liver. And that usually tells me that, hey, like, I have documentation showing how the person’s palmitic acid was, like, say, 22. And by doing what we did, you could see the drop in the fire, you could see the drop in one scene, you can see the dropping insulin resistance on the panels, and you can see the drop from 22%, back down to 19%. So that told me that their person was going in the right direction, their symptoms were the same, and their symptoms were corresponding to the data. Because correlation doesn’t mean cause causation doesn’t mean correlation. Right? So at least we have tracking mechanisms to know. And then it’s like, Hey, by the way, it’s like, yeah, you’re doing much better, you know, because you read you should retest that probably once every four to six months, because what happens is, is depending upon the person’s genetics, if it’s FAA DS, one FA DS two, they may be hyper converters to arachidonic acid from the GLA, for example. So in that situation, you might want to use things to like there’s there’s a five locks and there’s two Cox and five locks. Those are the two main things five locks using works five locks will knock off the bike locks will not knock off the local trains that are actually stimulated by the phenols phenols actually stimulate five la phenols actually inhibit the Bible. They impair the five locks pathway. And the five locks pathway is directly linked to histamine responses. And that’s why a lot of people that I work with, they may not do good on like, Claritin, Zyrtec but they’ll do good in Mana class. Which would be a mono class would be.   Dr. Joel Rosen: what’s the singular? Not?   Shawn Bean: Yeah, singular. It has to be prescribed singularly, right? Because they don’t have a reaction to the histamines to have a reaction to the local trains.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. I want you to explain that because I think that’s a big part for a lot of people that have tried Benadryl and Zyrtec and they have these major issues. And I love the way you’ve made these connections, especially if you’re doing my mycotoxin lab and you’re not doing a urine organic acid or urine mycotoxin test. And you can actually see that there’s an IGE reaction. And you know that there’s a mast cell thing versus an immune reaction. But then they go ahead and they do all these histamine-based things and it doesn’t work. So kind of explain how the local trains come into play and all of that.   Shawn Bean: when you have oftentimes when you have an elevated arachidonic acid to BPA ratio, that can also trigger that’s an indication of local trains. Because what happens is, people are using EPA, which is fine to some people, but they can’t tolerate that. But another way that you can lower the arachidonic EPA ratio is to go after local trains use the singularity use the five locks inhibitors, that’s what Botswana is good for. Frankincense, that’s a five-lox inhibitor, that’s my go-to five you know Boswellia frankincense is my go-to for five locks. And when you go for the five locks, what that does is that will lower the arachidonic acid to EP ratio without you even having to take fish oils. Or if you’re going to take an official or what I’ll use is I’ll use an algae-based one. There’s an algae-based one out there’s algae-based ones out there that are just EPA alone the problem is a lot of these doctors are given cod liver oil. Okay, if you get cod liver oil, that’s why I case I work on autistic. I’ll check their Omega Quan. Next thing you know, you’ll see that cut because they’re taking cod liver oil, their DHA ratio is 10 times higher than the EPA ratio, which isn’t right, and that usually indicates the cell danger response. So what I do is I pull them off the cod liver oil I work on draining out you know raising up the EPA whether, through an in flight, you know taking care of the five locks pathway or doing the five locks pathway combination from the algae. And within three weeks you got this autistic kid who was a holy terror and is now an angel. Because the fact is you removed the problem in the first place. And it’s not the practitioner’s fault, because they were just doing what they’re supposed to do. It’s because of what’s happening. Because of all these environmental toxins, these gene expressions, these pathways are just not working as they should be. Right? You know, and that’s why I’m trying to understand with other practitioners, these negative feedback loops, it’s like, how can we get that EPA to rep any of that DHA to retro convert? Okay, because when DHA when DHA piles up, that’s also a potential sign of cellular hypothyroidism. We see that a lot too.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Did you ever read the PEO solution with Brian Peskind book?   Shawn Bean: Right? That’s the that’s kind of like the methodology that I come off of him. And also, participant Kane. Dr. Participant, Kane is like the lipid queen. I was a patient of hers a long time ago. And that was what turned me around the fastest by doing the PC IVs and the glutathione. And her work, because back then she was taking care of Oxford’s, she was taking care of all these imbalances that we didn’t know about. But she knew by addressing these pathways, maybe at the time, she didn’t know what they were, but she was ahead of the game 30 years ago, you know, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: So Okay, curious, because I liked what you said on the last visit, you always want to know what really worked well for you. So we can understand. And we also want to know what really didn’t work well for you so we can understand and really control expectations. I really liked that as a practitioner, like, Look, Mrs. Jones, we don’t have this isn’t an exact science, we can just estimate what’s going on based on your symptoms based on the genetic maps based on the expressions based on these metabolic pathways. And what if this goes right, this is what we will feel. But if it goes wrong, not wrong, but if it doesn’t play the way we want it, this is what will feel and that’s great information. Because as you said, I’m more concerned about what I don’t see than what I do see, I guess the question and again, I’m stealing your brain here for some of my patients, and maybe some of the people listening will understand. I have a patient who she, she did. Like it was a magic wand when she took a Cox Two inhibitor. And she said it was amazing for her knees. It was so great. I gave her a CBD CBN-type mix. And it was like the worst thing ever. So I don’t know, like I’m trying to figure out okay, what’s going on? Like, this is a good case study for people to understand. I would have expected that would have been the same thing as the Cox two. But because there are complicated pathways and genetics and environmental triggers, how would the metabolic renegade Shawn Enders look at this in this way?   Shawn Bean: Yeah. When she had these reactions, were they neurological?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Did she go it was like she couldn’t sleep and it was just like an out-of-body experience.     Shawn Bean: Okay, so she had a deep she had slight depersonalization that you could identify as a slight depersonalization issue, is that correct? Yeah, that’s correct. Okay. What happens in some situations is is it’s not the sometimes inflammation to the body, I found this out non case, sometimes the inflammation in the body makes the person the way they should be. But when you start to reduce that inflammation, it makes its way they shouldn’t be okay. And oftentimes what I see is that CBD works on the dopamine receptors. So what happens is, that’s why it’s about depersonalization. What happens is, is, CBD can if I take CBD oil, it lowers my, I become antibiotic, I become out of body out of mind, that’s how I know, I feel like I’m existing in space and time, no pleasure, no joy. And, you know, with low dopamine you can have, you know, insomnia as a result. So in those situations, what may have happened was is the body may need some inflammation, but too much inflammation can go the other way. And also using CBD can also affect the dopamine receptors. So if she is a person who’s more higher dopa ergic And then you drop that down, then she’s going to be more the endodontic with the depersonalization issues going on. Does that make sense? Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: It does. But then where does the Cox two fit in where it was like a magic wand in that pathway? There? Because I know like, I mean, that’s why I like talking about this area because I think fattier acids and how important they are not just inflammation, but in, in being able to make your hormones flow, your bio support your nerve function. I think there’s a lot that we don’t understand just yet. And it’s amazing to talk about this with someone who’s made these, these connections, and especially when they know that, hey, if this thing helped you that I want to do more of that, or if this thing didn’t help you, I want to understand what that is.   Shawn Bean: Yeah, it just sounds to me like that. One part was helping with the immune system. And then when you added the CBD, it may affect another part of the immune system that we’re just maybe unaware of because that works on CBD works on something similar that what caffeine does, it inhibits the one enzyme for such an A, I can’t think of it, but it’s an inhibitor, you Denison works on the Denison Dennison. So, in her chemistry, that pathway got me got affected. So as you can see, there are so many out branches as possibilities. And we can only go on with what her clinical presentation was.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And that it’s a good point for people that may be thinking that this is complex stuff. And it’s complex stuff for the practitioners to want to help you and understand that. There’s pathways there’s, there’s nutrients, there’s deficiencies, there’s impressions, there’s mindsets. And all of these have a lot to do with the outcome that we’re going to be implementing and, and trying to give you some support with Shawn also, the other thing I wanted to talk to you about was, you mentioned GABA and neurotransmitters and then there’s dopamine and acetylcholine. So if we’re talking about inflammation, we’re talking about the phenol sulfur pathways, we’re talking about controlling we’re talking about mold, we’re talking about EMFs. I guess the question is, where do the neurotransmitter imbalances and emphasis come into play? Because a lot of people will say, well, I need to do the neurotransmitter test, I need to take these. I’m taking these, especially pharmaceuticals like these SSRIs, or the SNRIs. Or, these GABA-supporting medications, which we know can really mess someone up if they’re in the wrong arena. And they’re doing it for so long. How do you approach that? I mean, what we’re not treating, quote-unquote, where we’re helping support function through nutrition, but how do we look at it?   Shawn Bean: In those situations, there has to be communication between you and the psychologist because I wrote letters to a psychiatrist and said, Listen, I just want to let you know the NP worked with your patient, we’re going to be working on balancing the hormones, the adrenals. So there may be some changes in medicines, such as, hey, we’re going to, you know, we may get his dopamine levels going naturally, so he may need to reduce the dosages. So there has to be communication. First of all, they may or may not be open to that, but I always, with my recommendations, I always said, listen, we’re gonna be working on your testosterone level, okay, when we start working on your testosterone level, this may affect your dopamine receptors. So it may make you more dopaminergic. Now, because of the fact that you’ve already got not enough dopamine, but then you also lack serotonin. You know, we may have to work on the balance, but this is what, you know, this is what I recommend you do if this happens, and please get in contact that you need, maybe lower your dosages. Because by turning on the dopamine receptors, we’re going to make that medicine work better. Okay. And this is what to inspect. So this comes from number one years of experience. It comes from the interaction between the neuroendocrine-immune system, the gut, I mean, just working on the gut alone, I mean, you start using plant term 299 and you start using l Rhamnosus. You start using our router, right? They all impact door transmitters. So if a person is on drugs or anything the clinician needs to research and be aware of hey, given l router I know BioGaia hasn’t a huge effect on guess what oxytocin? Now oxytocin affects a huge array of neurotransmitters. So you’re on this type of medicine, this type of medicine, you know, people come in with six different types of site No, six meds you need to know the internet options you need to know.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Would you say I mean, those are obviously I always use the analogy, Shawn? It’s like I’m a golf pro. And I would have just rather you came in and never swung the club before then learning how to swing as terribly as you have. Because now I not only have to unlearn what you learned wrong, I now have to teach you what you should have learned from the beginning. Would you agree with that statement in terms I?   Shawn Bean: I agree, when people come in me clean slate, they’re the easiest ones to work with. It’s when they come on with these nutraceutical or pharmaceutical nightmares, you know, from other practitioners that they’re on 50 different things in combination with 13 different drugs. It’s like you gotta be on your game, you’ve got to be research.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and one thing I love that you said, I think it needs to be repeated that a lot of practitioners, let alone patients don’t understand is your body’s incredibly intelligent. And it’s doing what it should be doing in the environment and the information and the computer programs that have been run, and don’t automatically think that you’re smarter than the body, and you need to shut that program down, or you need to run a different program, you need to understand which program is being run, you mentioned that with inflammation, where the body’s creating inflammation for a purpose for a cell danger response. And the best way I use the example is with thyroid function. If the thyroid is an oxygen sensor to the cell, and oxygen isn’t moving effectively, then your body is going to do what it can to put our eggs to other it decreases your pituitary output, decrease the glandular output, decrease the conversion, increase the reverse T three make antibodies. But we’re so fascinated with oh my gosh, this is broken. Let’s fix this. And it’s not broken. So I guess it’s sort of Aikido in the art of using your body effectively, I guess, how? How do you given what we’ve just mentioned with having to cross reference all these medications, interactions, microbial impacts? How do you How on earth do we get people better?   Shawn Bean: You just kind of have to start at the top of the cascade to see who’s screaming the loudest once you know who’s screaming the loudest and once you know, hey, I’m like, did you take time? methylfolate? Yes. What kind of response got oh, god I made? It made me crazy. Okay, all right, that it’s pushing your catecholamines too hard. So, therefore, you know, think about adrenal insufficiency. Once you correct the adrenal insufficiency, then you can go ahead and push the, you know, they go push things a little harder. But again, adrenal insufficiency is just a symptom of a deeper cause, you know, how many times have we worked on adrenals? It backfire when he when the problem the real problem was the mitochondria because mitochondria produce cortisol in this, you know, cortisol producing the cytosol, the final country, and the adrenal glands. We we’ve been misled to think. So you know, a lot of my clients have now been on adrenal supplements, and they fail, I’m going into the mitochondrial support, the NAD the CO q 10. This is where I like to have the genetics to see where you know, and Q one is where the naps are, I’m going to actually talk to Bob, because we’ve, we’re going to try to reroute the pathway and get the salvage pathway on there and get different pathways in regard to the NAD pathway deeper and how to interlock with the nitric oxide pathway.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And enter and I would say also, too, with the, with the paps and what you were mentioning earlier, too, because I don’t think he looks at that as much either with the sulphonyl transfer ace and that it’s in there, but I don’t know how much they’re integrating it. And from my perspective, I’m a big, you know, I’m a big copper availability fan, and I think you don’t pass go until you understand how well you’re respiring at the cellular level effectively, and if you’re not, you’re creating exhaust, and that to me come comes really really quickly as well. But back to what you were saying with the NAD pathways maybe I mean I think I’m seeing that with a lot of people is that just so under-stressed and under-supplied with energy that they’re having to over-create that NAD production and then that creates so many issues?   Shawn Bean: Yeah. So I think you know, I think the NAD pathway I think the NAD pathway is highly overlooked.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, well, we I always assume guilty until proven otherwise, where you sort of look at like that tryptophan steal. I look at it as a NAD steal. Right, or you have an NADPH steal and the environment. Stress, chemicals EMFs dopamine, sulfates, exhaust fumes, molds, iron dysregulation, and hist means mass sells molds, all of those things are going to deplete you of your NADPH, which ultimately needs NAD to be able to function ran. And yeah, so yeah, we went down a lot of different rabbit holes. One of the questions I did want to ask you though, was about the sex hormone binding globulin, which I noticed is on a left field. You mentioned that when you’re 10 hippuric is high. On the old test. You always mentioned, hey, you know what, let me guess your SHBG or your sex hormone binding globulin is high as well. So maybe explain how you came up with that correlation.   Shawn Bean: Um, I’ve been monitoring my SSB G for probably about 20 years. And when I got hit with mold, again, it was mold that did it. I think mold has a direct impact but I also genetically, also have the gene for sh VG two, okay. This means that it’s gonna be more likely, my sh VG was 16 ounces 27. The other factor was the other factor was also protein synthesis was off. The mycotoxin I discovered was done, which is known as a bomba, toxin, a vomit toxin that causes protein deficiency, alters protein synthesis in the GI tract, it mimics celiac. So what I started doing was, as I started taking a protein that’s called perfect amino. That’s a pre-digested protein that does not cause any kind of nitrogen issues. I use it in dialysis cases all the time, five grams equivalent to about 30 grams of whey protein minus the metabolic ash. So I started doing that outside my fasted window, I think the combination between the supporting the glutathione pathway supporting the excess of supporting the excess protein, because as HPG rises and people that have anorexia, it also happens in regards to nonalcoholic fatty liver, it a phase two pathway. So it does a lot, but it was the combination between the two, the excess protein with the glutathione, I think brought it back down in the play, because you’re supporting that phase one, phase two, you know, getting rid of that nonalcoholic fatty liver.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah. And do you I mean, just as an aside, it was the excess protein from ash or was the excess protein from arginine with uncoupled nitric oxide or do you know?   Shawn Bean: It was just from malabsorption from the seat of small, you know, the mycotoxins hitting the small bacterial overgrowth with the bile flow, causing the specific specifically I went into the research to look at them. What I did was I broke down the mycotoxins I looked at the clinical research on each of the mycotoxins and learn their mechanisms like Don induces glute five transport issues, which causes fructose intolerance. So anybody that has done I pull their fructose down. And that hasn’t been helping out great. Because most people were done and vomited toxins actually mimic a lot of the celiacs. Because of the cross-reactivities.   Dr. Joel Rosen: They see really high uric acid, but those patients.   Shawn Bean: No, don’t see real high uric acid levels at all.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. Well, listen, I mean, I could go on and on with this, but I know it got deep quickly. And I appreciate your time, I definitely would love to be able to send you one of my patient’s results because I’m having a bit of a tough time with her. But it’s always great. You mentioned in your bio, even when you don’t know the answers to something, you’ll find the answers because they’re there. And you’ll lean on other people. So I appreciate what they let you do. I’ll put all the links to your how-to get in touch with you. But for the people that are listening now what’s the best way to find you, Shawn, and where you’re at the best way for people?   Shawn Bean: Find me is they can email me at matrix health well@gmail.com websites currently in the process of getting revamped so they go to the website, they hit the info, it won’t get to me so they can have me direct contact me via my email matrix healthwell@gmail.com. And then as my website gets up, I’ll let people know about that. They can find me on Facebook under my name. Because I’m posting a lot of interesting information there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and last time you did share with us some really great information in terms of starting simple, look at your environment, get good healthy water, get good healthy food, get good healthy air, get good, healthy thoughts. I really liked that. You talked about having a community and making sure that you’re getting support. I guess for the Shawn being what you wish you would have known now that you would have known then that could have helped you a lot quicker, faster further, what would you have told your younger self?   Shawn Bean: Really, it probably would have been number one, focus on more the microbiome focus on more, you know, the liver pathways. Also, the biggest one that I’m starting with coming to a conclusion is the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve is huge, but also we know the biggest nerve innervates, the GI tract, the GI vates, Inductrix, and the vagus nerve through a bi-directional pathway. So oftentimes, you can regulate the biggest nerve through using butyrate. By using and regulating the microbiome. I just found an article that actually reboots the whole GI tract itself. I’ll send that over to you. It’s an amazing product. So now by knowing that information, I can see the patterns and still simple tests on the biome. And know exactly Hey, you have low Akkermansia, Bifidobacterium, and lactobacillus, but you also have high levels of BillyOh, Wadsworth, u, and d fibro. Well, guess what? That falls right into your pattern of NAD.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so I’ve seen that before, actually. And with Interpretive Guide, they only have something on those Firmicutes when they’re Ella range. And that’s it. But awesome information, Shawn, I definitely will post the links to contact you. And we’d love to somewhere down the road when we meet again to pick your brain, see what’s new and share resources along the way. So thank you so much for what you do.   Shawn Bean: All right. Thank you, Joe. The post Unlocking The Metabolic Bottlenecks For Optimal Energy and Health Part 2 [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com/unlocking-metabolic-bottlenecks-part-2/] appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com].

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. Really excited to meet with a colleague. Sean is who we are going to be talking about metabolic bottlenecking and thyroid and adrenals. Sean is an avid researcher, he is constantly in pursuit of deeper ways of looking at disease and chronic illness through the lenses of biology, biochemistry, genetics, epigenetics, and physiology, he has been dubbed the meta-medic metabolic detective of integrative health, oftentimes, he will be the last person to be seen, I can definitely identify with that after the people have exhausted every other therapy, I could go on and on. But Shawn, I really want to just get into the meat and potatoes. So thank you so much for being here today.   Shawn Bean: And Joel, it’s complete honor being with you, because I’ve followed you for many, many years through my own journey. And a lot of your information has been Paradine and getting me to where I am today. In regards to back in the day, you were the adrenal guy, but we all know now that that whole methodology has changed. And what more of the box thinkers were more of the technicians, you know, the people that put you on the diagnostics on the car, and, you know, the people see the big picture, okay, I refer to this as the 40,000-foot view. Okay, it’s like being up the airplane and looking down, rather than, you know like many people are a specialist, you and I are specialists in being generalists. We’re generalized specialists. Okay. So that’s probably the easiest way I explain myself what do you do? I’m, I’m a specialist in media journalism.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Awesome. Well, listen, I mean, that’s very flattering to know and I appreciate the kind words so I always like to know a little bit about you and I do know some somewhat of your personal story. But for the listeners that may not know, let’s talk about how you became the generalist. That’s what you do.   Shawn Bean: About 20 years ago, I was a natural bodybuilder. To make a long story short, we started the ordered alteration and circadian pattern. I read an article where bodybuilders were getting up at like three o’clock in the morning, you can go back to bed because I’m making no more keep you in protein synthesis. You know, you know, we had a saying that you had to eat every two hours or go catabolic. We know that to be a bunch of nonsense right now. Okay, there are a lot of myths out there that we had no idea about that were disproven. So what happened was, I started getting up at three o’clock in the morning, eating my meal. I read that article from Jay Cutler, who eats like 12 times a day, and I was eating about 10 times a day. And my whole life revolved around feeding myself. I mean, the number of calories I was eating, I was probably around five 600 grams of protein, 400 grams of carbs, and probably about 135 grams of fat to maintain my 225 pounds, you know, four to 5% body fat composition. Because being a mezzo month, we had to eat calories because I had a fast metabolism. And I rarely ever did cardio. So what happened there was because of the circadian pattern, I started to have sleep disturbances, I started having museological dysfunctions, and there are warning signs before I even went into contest time. When everyone get done contest, we went decided to have sushi. So being stressed, my immune system was compromised, we were at the sushi bar for about five hours, and I think I put on between 15 and 20 pounds of water weight in that timeframe because, after the contest, you get done, you can literally see yourself growing. You know, it was insane, because of water retention. And then I started to feel icky afterwards and like and then I started out with mountain direction problems. I went to the doc you know, the whole story, go Doctor GI doctor, nothing wrong, you know, it’s like you got a guy coming in your office now that was like 185 pounds, and then, you know, six weeks later at 240 pounds, you know, the first thing out of the mouth of steroids. Like dude, I hadn’t touched that stuff in years prior for this stuff happens so we can go down that rabbit hole. Okay, and they always want to so I walked into the doctor’s office, and they text my testosterone came back 35 to 35 total, which now we know is basically what is called unit which is basically castration level. No no and explanation. So he gave me like five milligrams of Androgel, which we knew was a total joke, but did nothing. So I started to look at my labs, and I started to know the alkaline phosphatase was low. I brought this to his attention. He didn’t recognize it. I started to notice my thyroid was off even though it was in a normal range. But you know, the basic stuff that we know now we’re like, Well, this is what’s going on, but back then they had no clue. So fast forward. I had gi problems and then once that happened, I moved into a house with mold in it and then I About a month after moving into the house and mold, I suspected a parasite, and actually two years later I found out the place I ate sushi got closed down by the health board for preparation of food, so I was correct about that. But then I went into a house with mold as a chaperone to a person that had. He was cerebral palsy. My mom started cleaning the house you didn’t tell me 15 years later, by the way, that there was black mold there. So about a month in I woke up with total amnesia. I didn’t know who I was stuttering slobbering, I was a stranger in a strange land. And that’s when my whole life changed. And we started down these rabbit holes, the doctors, you know, your Oh, your, your, you know, they put you on thyroid medicine. And next thing you know, it’s like, Oh, your thyroid levels are beautiful, and you still feel like crap. And here I was, you know, I had lost over 90 pounds of lean muscle tissue and even eaten a lot of calories. So it was major malabsorption issues going on? So we went down that rabbit hole. Then they tested my adrenals. The nurse said I don’t know how you’re walking around and my total, my total cortisol levels were at my total cortisol levels were at two on the serum. So therefore I was clinically called Addison’s borderline, Addison’s, but it wasn’t able to do anything. So in that scenario, what happened was is then I went through, and I’m like, Doc, find out what I’m deficient in and put it back in. Because of the malabsorption issue and that was what I originally started with anyway, in the first place. Because that threw me off because I knew I was deficient in things, everything. You know, it wasn’t absorbing, like I said, I lost. They said I wasn’t as big as I was, I would have been dead. Because I went from 235 pounds at a low percent body fat down to 165 pounds, I liked 14% body fat and less than nine months. So there were a lot of things going on there. So this led into another and this led me down the rabbit hole of heavy metals. I think the biggest thing that helped me was what was known as the PK protocol. And the PK protocol was the phospholipid IVs with the methyl p 12. And the methyl Foley together helped out tremendously. Within six weeks, I had gained most of my strength back, getting back into the normal swing of things. I walked back into the gym. You know, six weeks later, they thought I had AIDS and here I was back almost some factors on my own strength. Now that led into I was doing really good always back on things. And then I hit fluoroquinolones. Because I was going into my gut, I knew my gut was still off. So I decided to have a parasite test parasite test came back, the parasite test came back with an organism. The drug they recommend it was Joe, Joe myosin, I went to the pharmacist, and they gave me a drug, they gave me Levaquin instead because it was a replacement for GM myosin. And then I took three days of that I felt like my wrist, I felt like it was going to muscles right off. And that’s when my GI tract, just like, never healed. And after that, then it just started into like one episode of mold right after another, making me more susceptible. And then, just within the past four years, I got a bad mold hit and I had to go through it all again. But my knowledge base was much stronger. But the difference was is we did not have electromagnetic fields 20 years ago. So the electromagnetic fields made the biggest impact on my recovery. And when we moved out of the house of mold, which was great, I felt good, but the thing is we moved into a condo, which was basically right by the, you know, with 35 WiFis going, and here I was trying to get, you know, push my way through, and then we had a gas stove. So you had the overload of the phenol pathway going and the overload of the phenol pathway. I started noticing little white spots coming up. And we’re starting to see this more and people have coded to, we’re starting to see these little white dots come up with no known explanation. Upon clinical research, I found an article showing that they were actually phenols coming out through your skin as a result of the inability to break it down, I do have a phenol sulfotransferase issue going on, which I had to do to salt to one multiple salt 21 genes. So as you can see the patterns going on. So this is where I’m at today, recovering from another mold hit and I wax and wane when I get a mold hit what happens is it hits my dopamine receptors if my acetylcholine receptors, I can go from the Parkinsonian to the end Jean Mesquita is my, I can never pronounce that word. But you go into acetylcholine deficiency. So there are some times where, you know, I might wake up stuttering, I may have plus have Asperger’s, I noticed that the mold making my Asperger’s symptoms 10 times worse. I’ll go into a done state, I’ll go into a locked up syndrome state as they would call it, I will go into. alright, but Okay, I’ll go into the lock them syndrome makes relationships difficult because of mutations. So you see a lot of people that have, like mold, toxicities, and a lot of cases that I’m sure you worked on, and I worked on and many practitioners work on. When you get that mold taken care of a lot of the Asperger’s, a lot of their autistic symptoms go away. And we do see that a lot. And there have been clinical studies showing that Dr. Andrew Campbell, who runs who’s the editor and Director of Medical Director of my micro Labs has seen and documented this multiple times when you address the underlying factor, which is the mycotoxins and the mold. A lot of these Lyme symptoms and mess and all these other quote, labels get better. And I can attest to that. Because when I do address my metabolic pathways that are associated with the mycotoxins, specific ones, I have glial toxins, and I haven’t done that explained, when I look into the chemical research of what they do, Don mimics celiac. And I’ve been basically living as a celiac and also cystic fibrosis for many, many years because, on my organic acid test, I always kept seeing the elevated of 10 empirics. And often we see 10 to pure chi, the funny thing is, is I always tell people, I always tell my clients, I said, I bet your sh VG is high, they come back, they’re like, how do you know, I said, You’re a pure chi, that’s using indication that there’s damage to liver on your phase one and phase two. And that usually means your sulfation pathways are off. And as you know, I’m a specialist in hormones and endocrine systems in regards to a lot of the protocols out there with male hormones actually originated from my findings that were taking, you know, my other doctors because I was not a medical doctor. And as a current trend that we’re seeing, and one of the things was is I was always the one when you look on my you know, on my Facebook, I’m always talking about sh PG, the clinical relevance of it, why is it so high? There have been very few cases and I’ve been one of them that have actually been able to lower it from high back down to my normal. And I believe that one of the reasons was that I was I was having protein malabsorption. And protein malabsorption was also coming from the dawn. Because what happens is protein malabsorption. Don will mimic celiac, which will shorten your villi. When you shorten your bill what happens is you’ll develop protein synthesis issues. So the thing that I did was I looked at the clinical research and how can I increase my protein synthesis, despite using digestive enzymes and HCl and bitters and yatta yatta yatta, which did nothing. Okay, for mass HPG. So the two things I found that worked for Heb shot was number one wasn’t treating the mold. Number two, it was actually the things that I did there. I did two things. The only thing I could figure out as I started was glutathione injections because transdermally I can’t transdermal or injections are the only two things that work because I’ve tried every liposomal under the sun. People with gallbladder issues people with mimicking cystic fibrosis, they don’t absorb lipo slumps, because there are gallbladder issues, okay? So I only take that chance no more. And it was the same thing with a lot of my supplements. So I either go transdermally or injected I, you know, nasal, up the rear, whatever I can do to get it in. Okay. And during the injections was a huge asset, because I could do the injections three times a week I made sure I could recycle it. Now the only thing you have to watch with glutathione injections is you have to make sure that you don’t have high Gliotoxin because in clinical research if you have the glial toxin, there’s a potential chance that the glutathione can potentially feed itself because it does work out the disulfide pathway that it did find out it’s a complex sequence of events, but I actually had mapped out on different clinical research with that, that I could potentially share with you in studies, but using the glutathione in my case, in a few other cases work wonderfully. But the problem was is after three or four months, we started to get negative effects from it. And we suspected that it was helping the inflammation in the glial toxins. But on the other end, what it was doing was also potentially feeding it. And in one case where I had, we did glutathione acetylcholine, uh, we use the S acetyl glutathione. And what happened was, we had this kid back to fully functional, and I believe he grew like three to four inches within six months. It was insane. But it was like his father’s back, you know, my son’s back, but then he fell down again. Okay. And guess what we found inside his mycotoxin test, glial toxin. So, proper analysis of the labs is crucial, because you have to know what pathways are being affected. Gliotoxin also works on local trains, the before pathway, you know, very similar to aspirin. So if you have a slight problem, salicylates will inhibit the local train response from that pathway. So, giving things like fish oils is counterproductive in those scenarios. So, so anything that shuts that down, you want to be careful off because you want to stimulate it, because that look, what happens is the glial toxin shuts that pathway down. And when it shuts down, it can’t respond to other infections. So your immune system gets knocked out. As a response to that. So different organisms. The fungus is the gun, the mycotoxin of the bullet, okay, and the thing is, is when mycotoxins. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Candida, fungal yeast, or whatever the end products are usually summered alcohol. That’s why when I start treating my client I’m treating but when advising my clients and recommending its recommendations, they are based upon three different criteria that I’m starting to find out. Allegra, which is an alcohol, number two alcohol or nonalcoholic fatty liver, and three traumatic brain injury. When you start to address those things from those angles, and reverse engineer, the microbiome, the endocrine system, the nutritional deficiencies, the environmental toxins, and the brain, then you’ll start to see how everything connects together. And it’s this connection that the majority of practitioners are missing because they are a specialist. Go to a mold specialist. They focus on mold, they give you a Schumacher protocol. Say Schumaker protocol is good for some people. But if you have low cholesterol, you can’t do core styling. Why do you have low cholesterol because Aspergillus Penicillium is guess what? A statin. So basically, in my line in my biochemistry, I have been living with a person that has been poisoned by statins, poisoned by fluoroquinolones, an alcoholic living with cystic fibrosis, and also a celiac altogether. So what I did was I looked at the pathologies of those conditions, and reverse engineer them through the metabolic pathways and the gene expressions, to better understand a lot of the chronic illnesses that we deal with, which actually has a very similarity to autism. Because I’ve got into this study in autism, because of somebody on the, you know, somebody on the online, said, Have you ever thought about you being autistic? Well, that makes sense. Because, you know, 35 You know, when we were growing up, okay, we had people you’re shy. Okay, shy, was formerly depression. I had classical signs of Asperger’s back then. I was extremely highly intelligent but had dyslexia. I could count do mathematical explanations and never carry a book to school. I would fall asleep in class wake up, answer the question, and go back to sleep. And I even got to the point to where the teachers thought I was cheating. Because I never did I rarely did my homework. I didn’t do things to completion. But I fulfilled all the criteria. And I was one of the few students that has ever gone from the bottom end of the learning class. Because they always put you in categories based upon, you know, reading, because you’re always reading low, then you’re gonna be science low and this low. Well, I was the only student in my class that jumped from low science up to the gifted class. And I was outscoring the valid, I was actually out and doing the valedictorians.   Because of my science background. And because what happened was we had the SATs back then. And the SATs were an indication of how smart you are. Well, that’s not so true. Because I had a learning disability, I was scoring 700 on the SATs, because of the time strain. And the problem was how the questions were asked was, I was trying to take something simple and turn it into something that was rocket science. And I was never my brain didn’t work that way. So one of the gifts that I have as a clinician is I have this holographic viewpoint where I can take a case, look at the labs, break them down scientifically in metabolic pathways, the gene expressions, and then actually formulate the regiment based upon all the criteria but also the contraindications based upon the hit hidden factors. Like for example, it’s like people are taking questions they don’t understand the question. downstream, the alcohol dehydrogenase pathway actually backlogs Lindsey NAT’s pathway. So if you have fatty liver and you have an alcohol or mycotoxins the alcohol dehydrogenase pathway is going to get overloaded. And then at pathway dependent on sisal transferees pathway is going to get overloaded. So that’s where your B five B, one molybdenum comes in. But if you get questions persistence inhibits that. So, therefore, you’re going to have problems with phenol issues. Solve late issues and that phenol sulfotransferase pathway is gonna get overloaded again, which a lot of people have. And you can look at the phenol sulfotransferase pathway by just looking at the Dutch test, just looking at the organic acid test, they cross-reference each other. So if you see number 61, hi, and number 10. Hi. And then you see on the Dutch test, you see the DHEA, say at 12 o’clock, and you see the DHEA s at nine o’clock. That’s a sulfation pathway problem. And then what you do is you go back on and look at your genetics and boom, there it is sought to a one-two a to read. So what I do is I’ve learned to number one, that genetics is a map. It’s not absolutely. So I know that sounds against the current trend, but that’s what I do. I’m a renegade, I go against the current trend. I don’t look at genetics anymore. I don’t need you. As a clinician, I’ve learned to reverse engineer this to know exactly what genes are expressing based on symptoms based on lab test results. The organic acid test is over 16 different gene expressions I figured out. And then when you’re looking at erotic acid, that orotic Acid is only ammonia if it’s high. And second of all, if it’s low, it’s actually possible to clean the indication of Pemt gene expression. So when a female comes in, I see low erotic acid on the organic acid test, which is number 60. I’m like, I bet your estrogen levels are low. And then boom, what do we do? We do an estrogen test. There they are. So, therefore, they’re, you know, at a person who has had a hysterectomy. 15 years ago, her doctor only gave her progesterone. She gave me 150 pounds. We did the organic acid test. We saw her levels were low. I said let me add you know, she’s like there’s no medical doctor around here. I said listen, I’ll find you one. If I don’t find you one, there are things that we can do over the counter. So we used an over-the-counter Astra da just to balance it out something you’re a professional word is and this is balanced about okay, because their philosophy is Oh, you have one ovary. Okay. She had a partial rectory. Oh, yeah. Partial of your party your ovary is perfectly fine. Okay, I’m sure you hear it all the time. In that scenario, what did we do? We gave her a little bit of estrogen. She slept for the first time in 15 years. After six weeks she had lost 1520 Paris. She got Shawn I want to fly up there and give you a hug and guess I said to.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Say a little estrogen started interrupting like five milligrams. What are you talking about?   Shawn Bean: Um, what we did was as I usually run two points, I usually run between one to two of biased, because Astra dial will break down into the different metabolites. And this is where I like, get, like, ruffled because they’ll come in on estradiol. When we measure their metabolic pathways, they’re going toward the four hydroxy Ester, and they’re going to the two hydroxy yesterday, and they’re going down the different pathways when they also have a history of breast or union rearing cancer. Okay, so the other pathways are not being addressed. So what I tend to do is, is I want to look not just upstream-downstream, but science stream, just to make sure the recommendations are adequate for their person. Because, you know, here you are, you know, I had one case of a woman who had advanced cancer, she went to a plant material based diet, okay, what happened was, she went to alkaline. So when she went to alkaline her body started producing acid against it. So the tumor started growing even faster, because she went on a plant tertian diet, only eating plants in her cat. In her case, it was counterproductive. I said, Listen, we need to put more acid in your system because your body is trying to produce acids to offset the alkalinity. You know, we did and guess what happened? Has the cancer tumor slowed? Because just because it’s in the literature, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. There’s always going to be you know, research is not it’s PubMed is not the Bible. And the PubMed, it’s like you have, it looks at one factor. It doesn’t look at all the overtime colors. Okay, like testosterone, they haven’t said testosterone was dangerous, while we look at the population that that that article was revoked, that was retracted, because the population they did the studies on was vets with post-traumatic stress syndrome from the war. No wonder it caused, you know, they come up with testosterone causes cardiovascular disease in older men. Why? Because they know, testosterone heals. So that study was completely false.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I find that there’s a paradox with studies because you know, I’m trained as a licensed chiropractic physician, and I’ve done Functional Medicine and niche and genomics and researching the whole medical curriculum, they put high emphasis, then I gotta give praise to two peer-reviewed studies to be able to validate and have scientific data. So there’s a hot, huge emphasis on it, but then you in what you’ve just said, Shawn, with the gaming of the results, or the unbind, the biased sample sizes are the samples are the dependent variables and independent variables have what they want to results to show or if it’s not significant above and beyond the control or placebo, they can really gamify the results to dictate what the pharmaceutical approach will be. And they end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I think but so many things that I would love to address. And I could probably get you on part two because I’m really interested to know about the phenol sulphation tie-in. Because I think that’s a lot of areas where just it’s Uncharted water for a lot of those in the know, let alone those that aren’t in the know. And I’d love to get your insight on that. But back to your original story, and then how you got into what you got into. I guess it’s a blessing, if you look at it, as you had to go through all of those trials and tribulations and background experiences in order to not only heal yourself but to be a healer to other people, as well. And with that being said, now you have an approach where people come to see you, and you look for where those metabolic bottlenecks are. So I guess maybe if we can succinctly explain when someone comes to you, how, how are you putting weight on how you’re figuring out where those bottlenecks are? Because I know you’re a big proponent of the limbic center wind-up, and how much the autonomic nervous system revs the battery, if you will, no matter what’s going on metabolically with those bottlenecks. And then, of course, there’s their own subjective feedback and what they feel is working and not working. Then most importantly, the objective numbers that are telling us the story. And then knowing the genomics and the map The Blueprint, which I would agree with, in the sense that it really gives you an idea how those pathways work, and reverse engineering, what needs to be done environmentally nutritionally mindset wise Olympic Lee to be able to come up with a game plan. I guess the question is, Shawn, how do you balance all of those variables? To be able to unlock those metabolic bottlenecks?   Shawn Bean: What I’ve come down to is, is it mean, I mean, teaching this to other clinicians is use the minimal testing necessary, okay? Like, it depends on economics people come into me, and then yourself included with like these mountains, labs, right? The number one thing that you and I both know is the answers there, okay? And the old saying is to listen to the patient, they’ll tell your diagnosis. And that’s so true. But unfortunately, a lot of clinicians, you know, have their eyes set on one thing. So, you know, you come in, like, a person comes in with Hashimotos because they’re coming from stop the thyroid madness. And the next thing, you know, it’s like, they’re leading you down this rabbit hole, when it’s like, by the way, tell me about your relationship. You know, and then you find out that that person has been, you know, has, for whatever reason been sexually abused by bosses and, you know, had male problems and like, you’re, you know, you’re pointing the rabbit down the rabbit hole here. Okay. Do you think healing your thyroids? No, I said, you need to go and see a counselor. So number one, taking detailed history is crucial. Okay, and just listening. Usually, within the first 15 minutes, it’s like, they give you the mound, you know, it’s like, Listen, I don’t need to see that you have Bartonella this that I just, do you have wine, yes or no? What do you have in your past? Okay, if we know it’s there, then that’s great. But then it’s like going, it’s like, I’ve been treated for Lyme. I’ve been treated for this. I’ve been treated for that. Then all sudden, you will start asking said, So tell me about your house? Well, we had a leak, and he started going back to the history, then you’re like, then you start to see the symptoms get worse about six months later. And it’s like, Have you been checked for mold? Or fungus or anything like Long goes? Like, No, I said, you went to a Lyme doctor, right? Yeah. I said, do you understand mycotoxins cross-react with antibodies to line and Epstein Barr and site omega? So if you have cross-reactivity from mycotoxins, guess what, until you address the underlying cause, all those other factors aren’t going to work. Okay, you’re pouring water into the bucket that has holes in it. So basically, what I do when a client comes in, is take a detailed history and try to find out what’s the biggest, as a clinician The best advice I can give another clinician, ask them what treatments worked in the past, and what hasn’t. And that will lead you to potential pathways that are being disrupted. If those pathways are disrupted, then you know, the potential causes of what those pathways are linked back to. Okay. And if you are never clinicians are not sure. Dr. Ben Lynch does a wonderful job on his pathway planner showing you were showing the pathways of what inhibits it, or you can go through PubMed. And that’s how I learn is I didn’t learn through reading, you know, Dr. Google, I learned from 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours looking at studies on rats, because the reason being is there’s no political gain in those. And actually, the rat’s studies, their functionality, not their actuality, link to humans a lot.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And, I’m sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to give a good comment on one of the things you mentioned, as your insight on this. A lot of people will, ask them, hey, what worked, what didn’t work, and then putting a protocol together, and seeing that whatever you did, made them worse. Maybe make a comment on the utility of that, because I think a lot of people end up just stirring up their limbic center and going into overdrive again, with their, with what you did, that stimulated this response that can it’s only results, you know, you don’t want to put a motion on those results. And it would stimulate a response that’s thought of as negative. It’s actually very, very helpful for the clinician, more so than if nothing happened whatsoever. And maybe even a little bit with there’s just a little bit but I’m not sure um How important that information is number one, and number two, how important it is for that person to not let that negative result or that perceived negative result, along with perceived negative results in blood testing because I see this all the time with my patient base is they get a test back, and I always have hesitant to send it to them before we’ve met, because they have this whole story in their head of Oh, my God, it’s getting worse, I can’t believe it. And then the things that we’re doing might make them temporarily more inflamed or temporarily kicking up the ocean floor because you’re turning on pathways that have had challenges. If so, I guess the question is, how important is it for both the clinician and the patient alike to understand that this is, is really a hypothesis, of physiology, and there are lots of 40,000 views, but moving parts, and you really have to think of it as nonemotional information versus anything else.   Shawn Bean: I think the best piece of advice there is, is it, this is what I tell a client, I said, Listen, it’s not the fact that you have all these things. It’s the fact that we don’t have all these things I’m concerned about. Okay. And when I tell them, I said, Look at all these imbalances these help explain a lot of your symptoms. This is good news. Okay, when it comes back, and there’s nothing, that’s why I started worrying. And when you do that, what that does is that puts them at ease. Okay? Because that way, oh, my God looks wrong, me, you got to change the mentality. Instead, look, what’s wrong with you, is explaining what’s going on. So don’t look at it as a bad thing. Look at it as a good thing. And it’s the as I mentioned before, it’s what I don’t see, that concerns me. And there have been probably four cases out of the 1000s that I dealt with, that I went to the doctors and I said, Listen, I cannot give any kind of medical justification for what this person is, is feeling. Okay. And, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, diversity, three, this, you know, I gave them an option, the optimization. And I said, Listen, this needs to be referred out to, I feel that this case needs to be heard out to a psychiatrist. And guess what, they come back with one child since? Again, there were only three cases out of several 1000s. Well, what happened? Just curious about what happens.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Though, when you want to implement something that you’ve pretty much narrowed down to this pathway or that pathway, and you implement that strategy? And there might be a short glitch. Or there might be a little bit of a response? How do you damage control, I guess, or what do you do from there?   Shawn Bean: Yeah. First of all, one of the things I do is, is when I make recommendations, I always tell them, so listen, by using this submit, we may be stressing this pathway, and these are the things you may experience. And I think having that in-depth knowledge, such as yourself and other practitioners, taking the extra, you know, a minute to explain them will put them at ease, you know, and you don’t want and some people, you know, that are buyer hackers, they want to go down that rabbit hole, you know, if you give this happens, like, listen, I said, Listen, you have a comp gene expression, where certain can sometimes impact comped to some degree. So these are some of the symptoms you might experience because you know, you’re not breaking down your adrenaline properly. Okay, and as a result, we can offset that if your adrenaline goes up these are some things that you can do, you know, use Boswellia or maybe you’ve seen or worked on that GABA system and work on the braking system okay to try to pull you out of it because I’m one of the things I found I use it to the Rescue Remedy is bought frankincense has been a Rescue Remedy because it kind of like quells the inflammation like right there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Without any other side effects or…   Shawn Bean: Without any other side effects right? That’s one of the things I found lavender may be another input with bots well yeah, you know people are reacting to this oil that oil then we know that they have a phenol linic acid they have a phenol issue that phenol sulfotransferase issue they have a Celeste late issue. So then you have to work from that, you know, then you have to work from that angle. Then maybe use bots Well yeah. internally with a capsule rather than coming through an essential oil.   Dr. Joel Rosen:  Because very slow like no dose is low enough before you start to notice response is that your philosophy is to slow and low or just try to get right in that bell-shaped curve right away. What’s your philosophy on that?   Shawn Bean: You always want to have a buffering system in place before you start to add the gas pedal, I always try to isolate the potential variables, because you’re never going to get all. But you can somewhat, you know, prep them, like maybe there. I said, Listen, one of the one of the things we’re going to help you with is how about we help you better tolerate stress? Okay, so then we work on that we work on them. That’s why I like clinical documentation, When you have an organic acid test, you have a little bit of what’s going on in the playing field. It’s not like you’re digging, it’s not like you’re digging on, you know, you’re trying to break ground for a new building, and you’re digging any fine stones, where you go in blind it and you buy, you buy a plot, that you had no idea that was built over top of a garage, you know, tires, or you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into. So clinical testing, is, you know, one of the things I advocate because I like to see who the enemy is, I like to see, how can we litigate any of these potential issues. You know, like, if a person’s endodontic, it’s like, you may want you may not want to give CBD oil. Because if you give CBD oil an anodized person can make more antibiotics, because on the dopamine pathway, even though they have flare up, or how many times you’ve seen people that were schizophrenic they give you they go out to the dopamine pathway when the schizophrenia was actually from the glutamate pathway.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So with medications to write like, oh, SSRIs they’re in the I’ve always said they’re in the wrong. Wrong arena.   Shawn Bean: Arena apps. Yeah. If you do like an organic acid test, you have somewhat of an indication of who you’re dealing with, you’re not going in blind. I mean, I always tell people, I, you know, when people come to me and said, Let’s stop playing guessing games and put the nail in the coffin. Okay, you’ve been dealing with this too long. Okay, there are about four simple tests, they’ll utilize. And once we know what goes going on there, then we know, it’s like one of the biggest tests, I use the Omega Quan.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I was gonna ask you, when you started to talk about I wrote it down here, when you started to talk about the local trains in the before, if you’re doing the Omega quant, so maybe tell the listeners, what the Omega quantity is.   Shawn Bean: Yeah, the Omega quant has been the I always tell my clients, I said this will be the best $100 you’ll ever spend. Because if you don’t stabilize the PG one, PG two, and PG three, and you don’t know there are hidden fires that are going on, okay, people come from client line mold EBV this, that and everything in you know, in the kitchen sink, failing treatment, you do any find out that the racket Donek acid levels are 42. I said, you know, there are three or four fuels to the fire multiplied by a factor of 10. Okay, because you can see or you see a person with, you see a person with a J, one C of like 5.3. But then you do a red blood cell test and see that the arachidonic acid levels are the ratio.   Dr. Joel Rosen: 30 to one off the charts. It’s not even showing.   Shawn Bean: It’s I mean, four to seven, the goal, okay, four to seven is my goal. There are certain labs I don’t like because they don’t follow clinical criteria. Some of the ranges go from like 12 to like 125. I’m like, your break, you know, and I ran side by side, and they’re pretty close. But if the laboratories are giving that information to clinicians, they’re priming, they’re priming false information.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Curious, curious, sorry to interrupt you as Have you been pairing that with the inflammation test that looks at thromboxane levels as well? Are you just doing it on its own?   Shawn Bean: I’m kind of just doing it on its own. And we find out that you know, it arachidonic and sometimes the arachidonic acid is is, you know, may not use fish oils, you may want to use things that inhibit that local training pathway.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, going right to SPMs or you are.   Shawn Bean: More so I’ll go to like Boswellia frankincense practice will inhibit that pathway, then that pathway blocks up into the phenol sulfotransferase pathway to so the phenols actually triggered the local trains.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s so interesting because that’s a sort of a newer pathway that I have sort of added to the whole.   Shawn Bean: Yeah, that pathway is the COVID pathway. Right? That’s how I’ve been addressing COVID. There is a wonderful practitioner name Doug Kaufman. He’s been dealing with mycotoxins and Microtonic osis for 35 years. And he said the same thing. Your treat COVID is coming in when you treat them antifungals they’re getting better, the long haulers and that’s how I address them. I address every person coming in as you know, once I find because as I mentioned before COVID hitch drops the secretary IGA your Bifidobacterium levels go down, that opens up the door to any of the pre-existing infections or exposures that you may have mycotoxins we know through clinical research that at least 43%, up to 50% or more of the buildings have in the United States have been or have water damage. Okay, so your immune system was able to keep it in check. Now, since this COVID, it unleashed the monster that your body’s been keeping in, and it’s releasing these viruses and activating these lines, I’ve had cases where people had water damage 15 years ago, right? When we look at it, and like you had it all the time, but your body was just keeping in check your immune system was keeping the lock on the cage. Now the monster is out, okay.   Dr. Joel Rosen: you like the organic acid, the Omega check Dutch and there’s a fourth one that you’re doing.   Shawn Bean: Or if there is clinical evidence of the, you know, water damage done, then I’ll go to the My Mic and labs, my Michael Labs is a blood test. It’s the one that’s a peer-reviewed article, it’s based upon clinical evidence. There has been controversy on the urinary tests that you have to take multiple samples throughout the day, to get something experienced to get clinical documentation. Because mycotoxins are, you know, wax and wane, but if it’s in the blood, you can’t, you can’t refute that. Okay, it’s there. You know, and it’s like the same way you and it’s like, mycotoxins are like 1/10 of a micron, which is the size of viruses. When was the last time that you use a urine test to look to see have EBV? Right. And this, when you start talking like this, it’s like, wow, that makes sense. Now, I’m not disputing the fact that there could be clinical relevance to it. But I have shifted, and the reason being was is, if you have a glutathione deficiency, if you have an oxidative stress issue, you can’t get it out. It’s trapped in the tissue. So if you use the blood, you don’t need to do the proof, you don’t need to put that person at risk of doing a glutathione challenge, okay? I’ve had people that have been sent to the hospital. As a result of that, I mean.   Dr. Joel Rosen: As a challenge. mycotoxin test is you’re, you’re doing.   Shawn Bean: if you know that the person can’t recycle glutathione and you give them glutathione what’s going to happen, you’re gonna have a paradoxical effect. You’re gonna have, you know, you’re gonna have a major herx That person has adrenal insufficiency on top of it, and you could have an adrenal crisis on your hands. So by using the blood, you don’t have to do the prevocational test. You don’t have to do Asana, you don’t have to do anything, just go get blood done. And then not only does that it tells you we’re reacting to so if you come up negative on the IgG, but then you light up like a Christmas treat on the IGE didn’t know you’re dealing with mast cell. We’re on a urine test. You don’t know if you’re having an immune response or a mast cell response from it. So if you know that you have a Gliotoxin that has a mast cell response, then you know, if you go out to the Gliotoxin, you have to support that. I have a couple of people right now that have Gliotoxin I moved them to singular because what Singulair does is Singulair is used and guess what? acid or aspirin tuck, Oxford aspirin poisoning. So if we know that the phenol sulfotransferase pathway is overloaded, you know there could be high Swiss leadership. So it’s less late is an issue. Then they use the singular offset. And the problem is, that’s why people don’t respond and the history means the problem is not the histamines. It’s local training that they’re responding to.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I got all these notes, Shawn and I want to be respectful for our time. I got it, I got actually have another appointment coming up here. But if you’d be willing to do a part two, because I got so much more questions to ask you, I definitely want to go down the rabbit hole of the phenol sulfur pathways. And talking about just the additional layers of the onion bottlenecking. And just go a little bit further down these rabbit holes, they’d love to have you back. So I’ll save that parting question Till we meet again. But I guess a good parting question might be, let’s say someone’s listening to this, and it is getting somewhat sophisticated. And I do feel like a lot of the people we see have had to become sophisticated because their doctors haven’t done the work for them. And they’re right up in the pilot seat helping to fly the plane. But with that being said, what do you think with everything that you’ve said, so far in maybe less than five minutes, is the best recommendation you can give to someone who’s listening to this that thinks, you know what, it’s insurmountable, I can’t overcome this, I’m never gonna meet with a Shawn or Joel, and I don’t my doctors don’t understand this, what would be the best advice you would give to them to give them a head start on on their recovery process?   Shawn Bean: The first thing I would do in that scenario is assess your environment, assess your environment, work on your water intake, you’re drinking out of plastic bottles, do the simple things. First, the foundational work, okay, get out in the sun. Without the sun, you don’t create sulfate. Without a proper diet, you know, go organic, the best you can. The other thing is, is the thoughts we think the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the food we eat. And also get around a community that is going to support you get around a community that is, you know, a phone call away. To have that support. One of the things that we run into as clinicians and also individuals is a lack of community support and family support. And without that family support and community, it’s going to make the survival. And also, if you do find the clinician, find a clinician that merges with you. Okay, that you click with, if you’re not getting the right buys for them, don’t waste time. Okay, you’ll know right off the bat. And, you know, I find a clinician that is more known, we need Lyme specialist, meaning traditional medicine, but find one that looks at the bigger picture. Okay, not just oh, genetics or this, that, and everything. It’s amazing too.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Because of the sophisticated and technical and 30 40,000 Few foot intricacies that are going on here. At the end of the day, no matter what, no matter how good your protocol is, or your built protocol specifically for them that’s ever dynamically changing, if you use the word protocol, is the fact that all of the things you just said, will not all the things that you identified will not work if you don’t do the things you just said. Right. Which is amazing, because that’s where you say, Well, you got to get to the psychologists or psychiatrists to figure out what’s going on here. Because at the end of the day, we’ve identified what’s wrong, we’re not missing a magic pill or magic supplement or a magic test. There are these other things that you’re missing, that you’re not doing that is free. And they’re not always easy, right?   Shawn Bean: No, and everybody’s trying to look for that magic pill, that magic bottle, that magic practitioner, the person who’s in the limelight, okay, has the biggest website has the fanciest Tiktok or whatever. And sometimes it could be fine, that little natural path that was shoved in the corner on a mom polytype shop that just has this basic knowledge that has been profound. You know, maybe just one of my severe lines, severe mold, Canada, wintertime, go to the tanning salon three times a week, what happens is that your Msh is down antidiuretic hormone down steady because our symptoms got better. That’s because he was lacking sunlight. And that turned on the mitochondria and started the whole process but a jumpstart monitor. So as a clinician, we just want to you know, I have a love-hate relationship with functional medicine. Personally, I think a lot of practitioners do a good job. I think a lot of times are turning mole hills and mountains where we should be turning mountains into molehills. That’s one of the biggest things I see. In fact, Internal Medicine going today is they’re trying to solve.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean listening in their defense, they haven’t gone through the trials and tribulations of your own health journey, or had enough miles on the odometer of the sophistication, I guess you would call that wisdom of understanding that, okay. It’s the glue that holds this together. It’s not the parts. Anyways, I gotta keep this for part two. I appreciate your time. We’ll be in contact with each other so that we get that part to go I appreciate your time and I look forward to our next conversation.   To follow Shawn on Facebook, click here [https://www.facebook.com/shawn.bean.73] The post Unlocking The Metabolic Bottlenecks for Optimal Energy and Health [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com/metabolic-bottlenecks/] appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com].

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back. And I had to do an inventory on what number this is morally, this is number seven. And there’s always new information, especially when you go on a sabbatical when you’re in research, and you’re looking at what’s going on, and all that good stuff. I’m sure everyone knows who you are. But just in case they don’t, I just wanted to mention that you are the organizer and the producer, and the founder of the root cause protocol, as well as the magnesium advocacy group. And really, I believe your mission morally, is to dispense the truth on what’s going on in the world, and what’s going on with mineral balancing. And maybe you can just sort of piggyback from there.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I appreciate the intro. And oh, my gosh, seven, seven conversations. That’s amazing. I, I like to separate fact, from fiction. And I think what dominates the worlds of healing and nutrition is a lot of fiction, a lot of narrative. And people don’t realize that. And so it’s been an amazing process of discovery over the last 15 years to see, what the literature says because I regard that as a will a bedrock of reality. Because if you’re going to uncover some uncomfortable truths, you’re going to publish it. And there’s a lot of goals, and then and then now hills, and I’ve been blessed enough to be able to identify a lot of articles. I came across a piece of paper that I put together, it was February of this year. And it was top 100 articles that I had read. And I just wanted to challenge myself. And I think I did like 65 just by memory alone. And I’ve been working to fill out the rest of the other 35. But you know, it’s there about 25 or 30 authors who I’ve come to rely on, and they’re all truthers. They’re all really committed to making sure that people know that the cold hard reality of what really runs the body, what runs the planet, if you will, in terms of metabolic standpoint, it has been fascinating to kind of weave that together in a tapestry, and help people understand what’s going on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I know one of your sayings. And you’ve mentioned the story about how when you asked noted research, and I don’t remember who it was, what’s new, and he mentioned to you it’s not what’s new, it’s what’s enduring. And what’s great is that I would have been more skeptical to think that newer produced research would be to stand the test of time and endure because of the politics and the gaming and the motivation behind the research. But it sounds like the research is still enduring as it trudges through time, I guess, is that correct?   Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. No, it’s, it’s interesting. I mean, researly evolved during the course of the 19th and 20th centuries, and now the 21st century. But it’s, it still has this bedrock of commitment to what’s really going on. I think things did change, though, during the Reagan era, when the funding for research moved away from the government and went more toward Big Pharma. A lot of research is being funded by the fox that’s guarding the henhouse. And like, we’ve got to be careful about the conclusions we draw from that. But for the most part, it is this paragon of stable truth that we can rely on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and I guess it’s you know who the author is. And once they’ve established their credibility, you’re more relying on the truth of that. So right, so one of the things that we’ve been meaning to touch base on for a while, is the PacM enzyme and how volatile and pivotal that is for everything that goes on in the body. So maybe give the listeners who even if they haven’t followed, followed all six previous ones of these ones, but why, why it fits so nicely in the jigsaw of this mosaic.   Morley Robbins: It’s interesting. There’s a theme around blue when it comes to copper. We’ve talked about the blue protein, so Reuleaux plasmon, we’ve talked about the blue complex, which is complex for of the mitochondria. We’ve talked about the locus Cyrillus the Blue Dot, which is at the top of our brainstem on either side, there’s literally a blue dot that’s full of copper that’s critical for maintaining our, health and well-being. And I’ve often thought that there was a blueprint, but I wasn’t quite sure what it was. And so my first awareness of the importance of a blueprint, if you will, goes back to 2010. I read the book mastering leptin, a great book, and talked about, the hormone that tells us to stop eating. It’s like I’ve had enough. But what people may not know is that if we have too much insulin in our body, because we have insulin resistance, or the insulin overpowers the leptin, and so when there’s insulin resistance, we’re just going to keep eating. And that’s, that’s a serious problem. That’s, that’s behind a lot of the weight gain and obesity issues that people have around the world. But it really begs the question, well, why are these? Why are these hormones working? Right? But why is there insulin resistance? And so if I were to give you a toy right now, be kind of hard because there’s a couple of 100 miles in between us, but let’s say I handed you a toy, and I forgot to put it, put a battery in it. After a little while, you’d stop playing with it. And if we went clinical, we’d say well, Joel is suffering from playtime resistance, not resistance, that the toy doesn’t work. And because it’s missing a battery? Well, it turns out that insulin is just like a little toy. It needs a battery, it needs to be turned on. And I didn’t know I mean, like I said, I’ve been studying the hypothalamus and some of the neuro Hepta peptides that are produced and regulated out in the hypothalamus. Going back to 2010, I was somebody that was just fascinated by this part of the brain. And it’s, you know, it’s where electrical energy becomes chemical energy. And that’s where all the master regulatory hormones are things that like, run the adrenals and run the thyroid and run a lot of things in our body. It’s sort of a who’s who of neuroendocrine chemistry. And so I didn’t really appreciate what was involved with an enzyme called the PAM enzyme, spelled PM. But it stands for a big word. It’s called peptidyl, glycine, and alpha-emanating monooxygenase. Like, wow, that’s a mouthful. So what it’s referring to is peptides that end with a glycine group. And they’re always on what’s called the C terminal. And so a protein chain has an n-term terminal and a c-term. And the C terminal is always next to a glycine. amino acid is the way Mother Nature designed it. And what this Pam enzyme does is it goes after the glycine peptide with the glycine at the end, it cuts off the C terminal, the carboxyl-terminal that’s carbon with oxygen and hydrogen takes that off and then puts on an aiming group, which is nitrogen and to hydrogen and turn turns it on. It’s like literally going from black and white to suddenly the lights are on. And when I first started studying this enzyme, there were 13 neuro peptides. You know, things like TRH, thyroid regulating hormone and CRH cortical Tropen regulating hormone and oxytocin and vasopressin and these big blockbuster hormones. Well, there are 13, Gateway 243 43, gateway to over 70, over 70, gateway to 279 and 279 Recently gateway to 127 of these signaling peptides that are just like our cell phones. We use cell phones to communicate with each other. Right? And if we don’t have power, and if we don’t have bars, are we you and I can’t talk to each other right now? And these signaling peptides are the same way. So insulin, leptin Greenlane, and all these amazing hormones are signaling peptides. And they don’t work unless they’re turned on. Now the part that’s absolutely amazing is it. I originally thought that, that the payments, I only worked in the hypothalamus. So if we drill a hole here, and until the hole here, we’re gonna get to the hypothalamus. And it’s the size of an ottoman. It’s got 64 chambers, it’s, it’s absolutely amazing what happens there. But I really thought it was just restricted to the hypothalamus. Well, it turns out, it’s not just the hypothalamus, it’s the pituitary. It’s the whole endocrine system, its adrenals, its organs, its bones, is all of our tissue needs to have access to this Pam enzyme. And think of it this way. The body makes what are called Pro hormones. They’re not active, but they’re in a state where they can be made active. So think of it as think of it as parked cars, on a highway. They’re there, they’re parked, they can’t be used, but they’re available. And the payment time is what turns them on. So they can get on the autobahn, and start to do their thing. And what really happens is the hormone-like insulin. When it gets when it becomes bioactive, when it becomes fully active, it’s able to fit into its receptor perfectly. And that everything is all about making sure that there’s a perfect connection between the hormone and its receptor. Because what’s the hormone doing? It’s got signals, right? It’s got to download its payload, it’s got to inform the cell and the tissue about what needs to happen. Well, if it’s not active, it doesn’t have the right shape. It’s not hydrophobic. It it’s half-life is shortened because it’s not active. And so it really compromises the body’s ability to communicate and regulate when the PAM enzyme is not working. Well, what makes the PAM enzyme so special? Well, it has very finite requirements. It’s got to have copper. It’s got to have oxygen, monooxygenase. Oh, it’s got to work on the oxygens are there. It’s got to have a score bait out that ascorbic acid ascorbate is very different. When you look at ascorbate, you’ll see a bunch of oxygens available on the outside of the molecule. And it needs the right pH. And what will surprise people to find out is that it prefers acidic pH, not alkaline pH. So if you’ve got a kangen machine, you might want to unplug it right now. Because maybe you don’t need to be doing that. But the thing is, this enzyme is the blueprint. I’m convinced of it because it is activating 100 of these signaling peptides all over the body. And, the thing is that we got to really be mindful of that. And be aware that, well, if insulin can’t get into its receptor, and it’s signal, what’s going on with the sugars, well, then the sugar starts to build out, the insulin starts to build up. And then there’s this cascade of dysfunction that follows it. And one of the most important aspects of that is that when sugars do build up, people can go into a state of what’s called hyperglycemia. High blood sugar. Well, a group of Russian scientists figured out in 2019 that if if the body does become hyperglycaemic, it affects the copper protein. So Reuleaux plasmon Ansarullah plasmon is the master antioxidant protein that runs our body and it blows up and the copper comes leaking out. And what doctors have been trained to do is blame the copper for the rising sugar, when in fact it’s the sugar that’s affecting the conformational structure of the Cirilo plasma If no one’s thinking about that, no one’s thinking about the fact that await the insulin isn’t signaling, right? Because it’s not the right shape can’t get into the receptor, and then that’s gonna affect all the other downstream. And so, think of it as a Russian doll. Right? This is insulin was a peptide over here called chromogranin. A, you may never have heard of it CGA. Well, if CGA doesn’t get activated, insulin can’t get activated. And so there’s a whole family of peptides in between chromogranin, a, and insulin that all need to be activated. And it’s, it’s like, oh, my gosh, it’s beautiful. It’s elegant. But it’s, it’s a lot more complicated than we realized. And so all of the focus is on insulin, no one’s talking about glucagon, no one’s talking about GLP. No one’s talking about all these other intermediary hormones that are critically important, they may not be as big as insulin. But there is the importance of insulin. And so here’s the part that I think will surprise you. And then I think there’s a part that will shock you. So the part that will surprise you, and you and your listeners is to find out that this Pam enzyme is not taught in Doctor school. I’ve talked to dozens of doctors, nobody knows what I’m talking about. And I don’t bring it up to be to embarrass anyone, I’m just like, this is a really important part of our physiology. And there’s a big blank slate out there about what’s going on and what this thing does. And so the fact that the doctor doesn’t know about it, and the fact that you know, our clients and patients don’t know about it, that’s really significant. But the part that I learned yesterday, which really surprised me was that there’s, as I’ve said, there’s a protein chain that has two ends to it. There’s an end terminal and a C terminal, where the end terminal is agnostic about whether the protein is turned on or not. The C terminal is very much interested in knowing whether it’s on or off. All of the assays of blood markers looking at proteins, hormones, and signaling peptides are based on the N N terminal. None are on the C term. So basically, we’re getting information, we’re getting blank information about these are all parked cars on a highway that can’t be driven. And we’re making critical decisions about people’s health based on incomplete information. And I think that’s shocking, that, that the entire infrastructure of medicine is based on the no one knows about this enzyme. And no one is testing the right end of the peptide. And I just I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is mind-blowing. And then you realize that the PAM enzyme really is the blueprint. Because it’s it’s activating all these signaling peptides that are communicating, saying, how are you doing what’s going on? Do you need an adjustment here or there, you know, you as a chiropractor know how important adjustments are. And that’s what the signaling peptides are doing constantly adjusting their signal, adjusting the information based on what’s happening. And it’s all based on the intelligence of copper. And it’s like, a complete component of physiology that no one is talking about. No one is aware of me, there are people at Hopkins and the University of Connecticut’s medical standard that are very well steeped in this, but it’s not mainstream at all. We are there with the professionals, with the lay people, and then we find out the laboratories or even testing the right form of these peptides. So I just, I find it. absolutely mind-blowing. And I appreciate the chance to have this conversation too, to kind of tease it out a little bit and help people understand why it’s so important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Thank you for the work that you do to tease that out. Morley, as far as a couple of things come into my brain when you’re saying this so no one’s talking about it, but it’s there for the research. So are there for the finding the articles that are being published about it? So what sort of as a side question, what do you feel happened? In swear, this research that doesn’t just get to go out and you know, an email, and then next thing, you know, it appears in a publication, it’s got to be approved and so forth. But when it is why is it not being taken by the baton and passed to the next level? What goes wrong with that?   Morley Robbins: Wonderful question. I’ve thought about that many times, I’ve just come to realize that there’s a Chinese wall, between the research labs in the classrooms. And the adage, it takes 40 years before the bench research gets into the bedside. And I don’t know what that’s about. I mean, it’s just, it’s almost like a whole generation of practitioners needs to fall off before the next generation will pick it up. Right? But it’s like, it’s, it doesn’t pass the logic test doesn’t. If we, if we learned that this enzyme is so critical, why would we want everyone to know about this, and, you know, people always challenging me about the term that you and I have talked about it, the term of copper toxicity, when you know, I find it changed my whole narrative around it. Now, I’ve decided that the right copper is toxic to Big Pharma profit, that’s really what it is, copper does so much inside our body, to create energy, clear exhausts, you know, its colors, everything that connects everything. And now we find out this profound function of activating all of the endocrine and exocrine and paracrine and neuroendocrine and enteroendocrine, so it’s like, it’s just unbelievable numbers of signaling peptides that need to be turned on. And, and it’s, it’s not, what people need to realize is some of these peptides, up-regulate some downregulate. And they’re in communication with each other. You know, so, glucagon is supposed to be communicating with adiponectin. And, you know, with insulin, angiotensin is connecting with adiponectin, as well as like, leptin and ghrelin are supposed to be communicating with each other. But if there’s too much insulin, it doesn’t happen. And so it’s, it’s just this incredible menagerie of chemistry that needs to be active, not parked on the side of the highway. And I think, for the listeners to understand, despite the chest being out there that were anemic and copper toxic, the truth is just the opposite. But we live in a world where glyphosate is a dominant feature of farming, and glyphosate is a perfect copper key later. Fructose is a dominant part of food processing. Well, fructose is a perfect copper key later, we live in a world where medicine is using antibiotics, and statins, very prevalently. And they have a huge effect on copper status. Well, when you start to combine all of that, and those are just four components, you begin to see the disappearing batteries inside your body. And despite the appearance of this really sophisticated breakdown of the human body, it’s a body that’s missing its batteries. And then we’ve talked about it, copper is the general and iron is the foot soldier. And it’s no more sophisticated than that. You don’t need to be in the military general, there’s a difference between generals and foot soldiers. Generations have more brass, right? They’ve got more brass on their shoulder, well, that’s made of copper. But if you really want to clarify it, just picture the Battle of the bolts without padding. That’s the impact of a general The reason why he was so important. He in two days, move 200 tanks and 200,000 men from going east to going north. At one point he was directing traffic. So that’s the power of a general and I think copper plays the exact same role inside our body. And if our environment can’t communicate with itself, both our internal environment, communicating with itself but also reacting to the external environment, well, then we can’t possibly expect to be in balance and be in homeostasis.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So so if I’m listening to this, and I’m not understanding 100% of the science, but thinking that it really does sound like doom and gloom, as far as is this one of those instances where the broken clock is right to eat twice a day kind of thing morally, where the sense is where we do get enough. Like, why aren’t we dying like yesterday? Like, why? I mean, why? Like, how do we with this all being said, and Pam ends, I’m not basically charging these hormones to communicate? Why do we see improvements in longevity? And in some people and why, you know, I mean, I guess to play devil’s advocate, why are we?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I think we have to, we have to draw a distinction between lifespan and health span, people may be living longer, but I don’t think they’re living better. I think there’s ample proof that we are a pretty sickly lot on this planet. When you begin to get into the statistics of the number of people who have metabolic syndrome, the number of people who have diabetes alone, heart disease is still the number one cause of death. Cancer is right on its heels, you begin to look at the impact that uric acid is having, in large part because of the level of fructose in our diet as well. This is not doom and gloom. This is trying to put an electron microscope on what’s the problem? Why are we why are we in this sea of metabolic dysfunction, and not understand what what’s going on? And it’s because this enzyme is a critical component of our neuro chemistry and our physiology, and if it’s not working, then we will get diabetes, and we will get anxiety, and we will get osteoporosis. And we will get, you know, all sorts of physical ailments. And if you don’t know about copper, if you don’t, if you don’t understand the incredible power and impact of a bioavailable copper, then then the Merck manual makes sense. Oh, there are 20,000 Different forms of disease, and we just HAVE TO TINKER AWAY at each one. Or we could begin to understand, oh, so we’ve got over 800 signaling peptides, and they all got to be fed with copper, and they know how to work. And that’s what the pioneering work of Richard means. And Betty Piper has assembled an amazing team of people when they were at Hopkins, and they went up to UConn Medical Center at the beginning of 2000. And they did some really important research in 2009 10, and 11. And the bottom line was that they were studying defects in the PAM gene. And what happened to the expression of the PAM enzyme as a result of those defects? And they looked at the impact of copper deficiency, studying, you know, rats and mice. And what they found was that there was a parallel expression between whether there was a defective gene, or whether it was a copper deficient situation, then they did the most amazing thing they fed the rodents cover. And guess what happened? The enzyme turned right back on and was just fine. Thank you very much. And so I think, to dispel this idea of doom and gloom, no, this is to sharpen the focus on why we’re all struggling with our well-being. Because we didn’t know that the environment of Copper has been shrinking outside of our body and inside of our bodies. And we don’t have that copper. And if we can’t make it bioavailable, then the body doesn’t communicate, the body can’t maintain its homeostasis, the body can’t regulate energy production, and clear the exhaust. And that’s really important to understand. So I think it it’s a case of we’ve been led to believe in disease, when in fact, while there are these incredibly sophisticated mechanisms of communication that just aren’t being fed properly, and our ancestors didn’t have the, the challenges, the toxins, the all the barriers to maintaining good health that we have in the modern era. And I think it’s important for people to realize just how central this one enzyme is to so much of what ails us.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it almost seems like the analogy I see is, is that I’ve been bitten by a venomous snake and the antidote is out there. But we’re searching high and low and selling other things that you To contain massive amounts of profit for the people that produce them to not give the actual anecdote that simple. And is is that a fair analogy?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, it is. In fact, it’s very fitting because all of the critters that have them know the bugs, the mosquitoes, the snakes, the scorpions, whatever. They have a very targeted focus. Their venom wipes out a key copper enzyme. It’s called superoxide dismutase. And what the venom depends on is the payments, I’m inside that critter. And so the critters that are biting us aren’t faced with, the devastating loss of copper in their supply and their food supply. But the humans that they’re biting, are struggling to get the PAM enzyme to work to respond to the bite. That’s where all the controversy is. The Pam enzyme is alive and well in the critters that bite us. And it’s not so well in in the individuals. And this is all new information on even though I’ve been studying it for so long. It’s just been in the last few weeks, and I’ve really come to understand the enormity of it. And Dr. Liz and I recently saw a great movie. If you haven’t seen it, I would encourage you to see it. It’s about Yogi Berra, a famous Yankee catcher, and it’s called it ain’t over. Very entertaining movie about his gifted baseball playing, it sort of been eclipsed because of his personality. People have forgotten what a great ballplayer he was. But he coined many phrases called Yogi isms, right? Well, he also coined a word called Simplexity. And I’ve taken it to heart. And I’ve, I really enjoy taking complex ideas and trying to boil them down into simple concepts that the average person can understand. Well, that’s what we’re talking about the Simplexity, of the PAM enzyme.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? It’s amazing to see you know, from a spectator sport, your evolution, as you go further and further down these rabbit holes, just the implications that having bioavailable Copper has beyond I mean, you know, from, from, I guess a general sense, the four main things of energy production and clearing, exhausts and supporting the immune system, and then also supporting other reactions. But actually seeing all the minutia of why, and continuing to focus further and further and further. So I just want to summarize a couple of things. Because one of the things that I see a lot that you’ve taught is the lack of bioavailable copper being loaded into circular plasm. And having a percent that is not available. And I put a lot of emphasis morally on the vitamin A to D ratio so that the A can help load in the copper into that circular plasm. But now, from what you’re saying, If I’m interpreting correctly, when we have hyperglycemia, that also causes sort of the exodus of the copper being loaded into soil plasm. That Is that a fair statement?   Morley Robbins: That can work against it? Right. So think of it this way, there are two master enzymes that load copper into enzymes, to these enzymes, low copper and other are called cupro enzymes. And they had the letters ATP, seven A, and ATP seven, B. Seven V is called Wilson’s enzyme, and that’s the enzyme that loads copper to make some Rouleau plasma. And as you noted, you got to have retinol. It’s got to be turned into what’s called retinoic acid. It’s actually a hormone and searching man for diseases retinoic acid requires the PAM enzyme. I haven’t found that yet, but I think it does. And so though, the pump needs the retinoic acid in order to load the copper into the super-low plasma protein. And as you just noted, wow, if we’ve got a sugar problem, that hyperglycemia according to the researchers in Russia, it’s going to it’s going to cause a problem with the structure and function of solar plasm. And the copper is going to leak out. Okay, that’s a big issue. The other other pump is called ATP seven called the minkeys enzyme. And that enzyme is loading all the other A copper enzymes, an incredible number of copper enzymes. But what’s Especially important is that ATP seven A is what loads the copper into the pan enzyme. And so you want to make sure that you’ve got the retinol in your diet, to activate the pumps to get the copper into the critical enzymes that are running and regulating the body. And so it just becomes this house that Jack built a series of dominoes that have all got to be lined up. But if you don’t have copper in your diet, if you don’t have retinol in your diet, those are two key components that are going to work against the body’s natural ability to keep itself in balance, but also maintain its energy production and immune system, as you know, and so on and so forth.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. And then so to follow that through, where it I always say it becomes just this major Domino, vicious cycle that gathers momentum. So if, if the hyperglycaemic tendency, and the person that’s taking which maybe you can maybe comment and remind the readers after I finished my statement that the nuclear receptor competes with DNA, and if we have too much storage, D, all of that stuff that goes on. But when hyperglycemia states happen, and we have high fructose corn syrup and everything that’s going on, then that causes the copper to come out of the spirulina plasm. But furthermore, it causes the derangement of the PAM enzyme, when we need insulin the most.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely, yeah, I mean, again, we’ve been trained to believe in a disease called insulin resistance. Okay, again, it’s like a toy that doesn’t have a battery. If the insulin hasn’t been turned on. If one of the precursor peptides chromogranin hasn’t been turned on, and then worked its way up the chain of, of signaling peptides, well, then the sugars can’t be clear. Now, what’s interesting, there’s a famous copper researcher that we’ve talked about before, his name is Lesley Club a still actively publishing even though he’s, I think he’s almost 90 years old. Now. He just wrote an amazing article last fall, and it was October 2022. It’s almost a year ago now. But it’s called chronic copper deficiency. And he wrote an article back in 1986, about copper deficiency, and hyperglycemia. High blood sugar, that there is a relationship there. If copper is low, you have a propensity to be high sugar, high per glycemic. And it makes no mention of the PAM enzyme, in part because the payments had barely been discovered. It was I think it was 82 or 83 when it was first really keenly understood. Well, it’s very likely he didn’t know about that at the time. But what he did know was that people who are copper deficient, have really compromised tolerance on glucose. They’re called glucose intolerant. They can’t, they just they can’t deal with the sugar, sugar becomes very reactive in their body. And he made a point in this article from 96. He was alluding to a pediatric textbook from 1981. He said the most glucose-intolerant people on the planet are children with monkeys disease. And what that means is these children, most of whom died before they were three years old, their copper pump, ATP seven A doesn’t work. They can’t load copper into the enzymes. And when you can’t load copper into the enzymes, you can’t regulate iron, you can’t regulate oxygen, you can’t regulate sugar, you can’t regulate much of what’s incredibly important for our body. But the most glucose intolerant people are children with monkeys disease. That was a lightbulb moment. When I read that it’s like a hippie, like a ton of bricks. It’s like, oh my gosh, that means that copper status is that the thick and the center of keeping the body in balance, particularly around sugar. And then when you find out that there’s very sophisticated signaling around that, and there’s a whole series of hormones that need to be at To live and turned on by the PAM enzyme that relies on this battery. And suddenly it’s like, oh, it’s so it’s a game changer in terms of understanding where the defect is and where the breakdown is in our body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, amazing. So just a curious question. So I know when I do genomic test interpretations, I look at those ATP 718 ATP seven B, but also organized in that part of the pyramid Morleys the ATO x. Right. Is there any relationship with that is that my understanding is that that enzyme helps to deliver that to the ATP seven a and seven B. Is that accurate?   Morley Robbins: I think that might be right. I’m trying to remember if ATP antiques. Is that involved with the mitochondria as well?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so it’s a copper metallic chaperone protein that is encoded by the ATX one gene. And it plays a key role in delivering copper from the cytosol to the transporters ATP seven, eight, and seven BT.   Morley Robbins: So then they would then at ato x A tox. Is what supplies copper to the other chaperones. Correct for the mitochondria. Right? So so the thing was, people need to know what’s a good way to shut down a detox. Platinum? What is platinum that cisplatin is used in cancer treatment? It’ll shut down a tox. And so what’s also important to know is that glyphosate ki lates copper out of the soil, so we don’t get access to it in our food. What is high fructose corn syrup? Do it block, CTR? One, that’s the front door. Do you look at CTR one?   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’ll have to make a note on it. I don’t see that’ll see that it’s the in the pyramid.   Morley Robbins: In that section, we’ll see TR one is the front door for letting copper into the cell. And if CTR one has been blocked because of fructose, and that’s the work of Myra Fields, back in the 1980s and 1990s. It’s a it’s a serious problem. And people don’t realize the subtle sophistication of copper metabolism, and how finely tuned it is. But the Don’t, don’t think of it oh my gosh is more complicated, or it’s all a supply issue. You don’t have copper on the front end, that’s why all of these separate things and transport is starting to get affected. We’ve got to have a regular supply of copper. And that the most important message is to get get it out to the populace is that we need these critical nutrients, magnesium, copper, and the real B vitamins to really run the machinery of our body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, So just as as an aside, I happen to have two or a homozygous snip on the eighth a tox one gene. And I think no matter what if we are all in this environment, and we all have these disruptors to copper metabolism like you’ve said high fructose corn syrup, glyphosate, iron, enriched filings, lack of retinol in our foods, incorporating too much vitamin D, all of the creating fear, like you’ve mentioned, all of these things, whether you have an A tox one gene or not, I what I’ve looked at is that you don’t need as much as those things to tip the balance of power to fatigue and exhaustion and burnout.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, you’re gonna be certainly compromised. But I think to me, I’m the camp that says these gene issues are not permanent. I think they’re more energy driven. And so we’re back into a chicken and egg situation, and what can we do to restore proper energy production that can begin to offset this allele, whatever, whatever the problem might be. And so I think that people need to realize that the research that that Dr Mainz and Dr. Piper did, and there are a husband and wife team, by the way, but they have done amazing research over the decades. They they clearly demonstrated that even if you did have a genetic issue with your PAM enzyme. It can be recovered with proper copper supplementation. That’s an important message for people to know because the jeans appear very fixed and concrete and scary. And I think they are very malleable and they do respond On to changes in the environment, certainly the energetic environment especially.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I agree and I, I use it as a blueprint. But at the end of the day,, your lifestyle and what we call the epigenetic factors are going to make those genes run. With the like, I always use the analogy, if a gene analogy is a two-lane highway, when it’s challenged the most and eight lanes highway when it’s not, you could still have a lot of backup on an eight-lane highway, and you could still have the clear edge of a two-lane highway as well. So so as far as the RCP goes, with your new uncovering of the importance of the pm enzyme, does it lead more lend more credence to the the stops and starts that you’ve already put in there? Or does it bring some new concepts into there as well?   Morley Robbins: That’s a great question. I don’t know that we have command of this just yet. On the on the surface, I don’t see changes, big changes certainly are not going to be coming forth. Because I think for whatever reason, we’ve got a very good grasp of it takes to rev up the engine. I think the what the PAM enzyme does is gives us a very clear understanding of where a major part of the problem takes place. I think what it’s also doing is underscoring the importance of proper supplementation, particularly around copper. And I think we’re increasingly skeptical about the prevalence of copper in the food system. And people need to realize that the nutrient tables that you’re relying on are providing information having been updated for a long time. So it’s very lot of information there. And I think what we need is a regular steady stream of nutrients, which is what the protocol is all about. But I think what it also does, is underscores the importance of staying on top of the iron with blood donations, and the importance of releasing our fears of people. When I first started this work, I didn’t really understand the emotional side of it. And I was blessed to be working with Rick Walter, who is a clinical psychologist and really had commanded that, and he really tried to pass that on to me. But I don’t think it’s been until the last few years that I really understood the power of the emotional side to affect the physical side. And so I would encourage people to realize that, oh, my gosh, I might have this problem, Gene. Well, what you also have is maybe a chronic Fear Index, and you’ve got to deal with that as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, it’s not. just the gene, though. I mean, it’s the test, right? It’s the test result. So they’ll have a test result, and they’re really into there. And I see and I would echo that sentiment is I have to reassure the patients that I work with, that they have everything they need and their power and their ability to heal to overcome this. And when you’re doing the proper principles, you can’t forget that concept of you got this and you know, because that fear is just going to drive you into the ground. And when you’re doing all the right things, but the markers aren’t moving and the person is completely overwrought with fear. It definitely derails them faster than any other thing that I’ve seen with who I work as well.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. And I think it’s behind every physical issue is an emotional dynamic, right? You really internalize that, and the emotional release programs are out there, like EFT or EMDR motion code. You don’t need to be lying on a couch for two years to try to figure this out. The whole idea is to get people to release. And that process of release is very empowering.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so too, if we had enough money morally, to start our own little side business, I think two good ventures would be to start to open up an amino acid company that tests the C chain right or the CN. That’s right. And the second one was you sent me something that I had a chance to look at just before we got on the call where it’s only done in rats, but maybe you could tell us about that study where they’re able to determine how well the ratio to whatever it is to SLD. And that gives us a status of copper depletion. Maybe tell us a little bit about that as well.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, this was from an article and with an 87, maybe 90. It was written by a famous copper researcher Joseph Prohaska. But He’s now retired. But he was a real luminary in his field during his heyday. And he was talking about inside the red blood cell. There are two components that can be measured. One is the superoxide dismutase enzyme because the red blood cell produces oxidative stress and produces superoxide anions all the time. And the s OD is called ESRD erythrocyte s od needs to be able to clear that and that this particular assay picks up whether that is in fact expressing, and the other is a chaperone called CCS. And it’s the copper chaperone for the episode enzyme. And so what they were pointing out is that in copper deficiency, we get this right, I think the so D was low, and the chaperone was high, well, the sample is rising, because there’s looking for copper to try to get there. That’s what I figured Yeah. So it’s trying to get the component, get the battery, to the superoxide dismutase. So that it can maintain homeostasis in the red blood cells. And so it’s a very revealing test, but it’s not commercially available. And so he was just, he was highlighting its value, and encouraging people to look into it. Well, I know for a fact that it’s not available there. None of the true sensitive tests for copper status are available, I mean, that there are a handful of them. And they’re all just Mia. And that that makes part of the intrigue of doing this work is finding ways to have definitive proof that we have a copper issue. And it’s hard to come by, there are all sorts of measurements of iron, but nothing around copper right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: And so, so eloquently teach that in, in your RCEP training. And one of the main ones is the copper to Serena plasm ratio, which I alluded to a little bit earlier with vitamin E in and glucose or hyperglycemia. So maybe this sort of gives our lead listeners because I always like to hear a little bit of an update on that or just clarify from my understanding is, ideally, you want to have a 3.3 to one ratio of coproducer rule plasm. And maybe you could tell me again, why it’s 3.3 to one and my analogy morally is always what is it Simplexity? What was the name of the what did you call it? Simplexity Simplexity. My Simplexity is, it is for every glass of orange juice to make it most efficient. You need 3.3 oranges for one orange juice, and every time you use four or five, it’s less efficient. And if it was one, you’re not getting all the good nutrients in there that you need. I think that’s where it starts and ends in terms of how the analogy works. But as far as why is that such a good indication of the intelligence of copper versus Hey, I just my copper is low or my copper is high, so to speak.   Morley Robbins: Right? Yeah, the two most dangerous words and in the field of healing and nutrition are high and low. Everything’s about bioavailability. It’s not high or low. There’s there is no high or low. Is it usable? Is it working? But this actually goes back to research done in 1960 by two famed metal researchers, Dr. Stern Liebe and Scheinberg. They were actually working at AT and T Labs in upstate New York in 1960. And they’re studying copper and so Willow plasmon, and they’re the ones that actually developed this ratio of 100. Part One other part copper to 30 parts of Cirilo plasmas considered ideal, you divide them and it’s 3.33. And what I’ve come to do is look at that number, that ratio has been logarithmic. So an earthquake of 3.33 is very different than an earthquake of 3.83 and very different than an earthquake of 4.13. And so the thing is, it’s going up by orders of magnitude. So 3.83 versus 3.33. That’s five times greater difference than it should be. Because differences, five, between eight and three, and I expressed it that way to get people’s attention that the balance is off, because well, we’ll look at it. We’ll say oh, it’s I’m just a half a click away from where it’s supposed to make Know You’re five times from where you should be. And so I think it’s, I don’t really recall the full explanation for why they felt that was key. But what they did indicate was it seemed to reveal that even under low copper, or high copper conditions, the ratio should still be 3.33. And that’s what I’m always looking for when I’m working with clients where is their ratio? Just to make it more exciting. I’ve added a new blood marker to the panel. And it’s looking at uric acid. And we haven’t had a chance to really talk about that. Maybe that can be a conversation, or number eight. Yeah. But what I learned in my research around uric acid, and the whole field of metabolic syndrome, is that metabolic syndrome is fed by uric acid. The one we’re not making energy, when we’re not making ATP, we’re making uric acid. So uric acid is essentially the billowing black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipes of our mitochondria when we can’t make ATP. And the uric acid is a clear indication that the body and the mitochondria are in a state of disarray. That can’t make ATP. They can’t recycle the ADP back to ATP, or they can’t get a&p back to ATP. And it’s a crisis inside some set of mitochondria or an Oregon or what have you. So what I’ve done now is measuring uric acid or we’re looking at uric acid. And the lab range is wide enough to put a Mack truck through sideways. So we’re trying to really narrow it down saying, if if you were not within four to five, then you got a problem.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I am low, I mean, both on the high and low side.   Morley Robbins: Right, exactly, exactly. And so when does heart disease kick in? Well, according to the practitioners who focus on uric acid, it starts at 5.5. That’s a really critical threshold. I’ve got clients that are in the sevens. Now it’s making sense why they’re having problems. Well, if we put it into a cerebral plasmin context, we have a new ratio now. We have Cerebral plasmon to uric acid. Because of the Rouleau plasmon, think of it as a surrogate for bioavailable copper. Well, where’s copper, most important, it’s inside the mitochondria, at the complex for cytochrome c oxidase is what turns oxygen into water to release energy critical activity. So I’m using su lo circular plasmid as a surrogate for complex and we’ve got uric acid now. Well, ideally, the ratio, let’s say we’re talking about men. So the ratio would be with a number for uric acid, remember the five. So we’ve got 30 divided by five is a six-to-one ratio. And as soon as I see where someone is, if the number is well below six, I know that their copper is compromised. And that’s affecting their ability to make energy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. I’m always selfish to do these podcasts, not for my guests, but for me so that I can get to that little insider. Interesting. So so in order just to sort of take that away, so ideally, through plasm is somewhere in the area of 30. And a lot of the people we work with, and I’m sure you see this in the 16 1720s. And then if uric acid is above the five range, then that’s going to cause that coefficient to be a lot less than six if you’re dividing Zankel. Right. And that’s telling us that there’s a, the copper, the thriller plasm is, is your surrogate for the electron transport chain? Is that right?   Morley Robbins: Yep. So I’ve got a colleague who, in his late 50s, Headstart meds for hypertension. It was really, it was really defeating for him to have to do that. So we we ran the panel. Well, he’s had a lifelong issue with copper. He had Crohn’s disease when he was a teenager. He said all sorts of issues around copper that no one ever put into a copper context until we began working together. Right? But his Suru low plasma is 16. His uric acid was 7.3. Right? And he said, well, well my uric acid is just over the range ranges is up to 7.2. Right? That’s a no, no, no, no. I said. So when you divide 16 by 7.3, it’s really small, it’s like 2.7, right? It’s not. You might oh my god, he’s, I’m, I’m less than half of what it should be. And I said That’s exactly right. Is it definitive? No. Is it directionally correct? Absolutely. It gives people something to hold their heads on. And they realize, Hey, I’ve got to get on top of this competition. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: So for women, 7.5 to one is the goal for them. Is that right?   Morley Robbins: Well, yeah. And that’s where we’re trying to refine is, is, we might even just say, we might just simplify and just say everyone should be at a five. I see. And then we have 30 divided by five, and we can interpolate it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Is there an operation limit? Because I know you said with uric acid being low, would you have said, let’s say it was in the TOS, and you had 3015? What would 15 indicate?   Morley Robbins: That would tell you that the kidneys are not releasing the uric acid? The enzymes that release uric acid from the kidneys? Are copper-dependent, of course. And so what you’ll often see is low uric acid with folks who are dealing with neurodegeneration.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I say so it’s, it’s it. I’ve told people this, it’s still the same fundamental problem in the lack of bioavailable copper, it’s just depending on what system or organ system is being impacted by the lack of power.   Morley Robbins: Exactly. That’s exactly right. Yeah. And so I think I think the part is hard for some folks to grasp as, how could this one lowly little mineral, be so powerful and so important? And it’s like, I’m not sure. I think our Maker Mother Nature designed us in a very unique way. But boy, you talk about an Achilles heel. And if the Achilles heel goes south, the downstream impact is staggering.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So in wrapping up, so morally, if we were to have a utopian world, and we could do whatever we wanted, by rubbing the genie as many times as we could.   Morley Robbins: How would we fix this? The first thing I would do, I mean, we have complete sway over the world, right? Yeah. Glyphosate is gone. High fructose corn syrup is gone. Statins are gone. That’s where I’d start.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And the statins because they’re mitochondrial disruptors, is that what it is?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, absolutely. And we’re bucket we’re bucking three big containers of activity. I mean, right now, statins were the first trillion-dollar product on planet Earth. Right? It’s there’s a juggernaut behind it. Of course, we know that. But if we’re trying to make a seismic shift, that’s where I would start.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And also because of the fact that cholesterol is the oxygen sink, right? So if we don’t have the ability to sequester that, then we have oxidation of lipids and so forth.   Morley Robbins: Right. And the whole, the whole controversy was they never told us what the problem was. The problem was the lipids were getting rusty, why are they getting rusty? Because there was too much iron in our blood. Why was there too much iron? Oh, we didn’t have enough copper. And so rule of law, they forgot to tell us the most important part. So you were held hostage for 65 years around this, this blood chemistry, it goes back to the beginning of time. So it’s just so so information.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s I think about you and your research. And last time we talked you were a bit deflated with what’s the purpose of this all. That sounds like you’re in a better place. Also, I would imagine with the researchers, I mean if I published stuff on the pm enzyme that was groundbreaking, and it doesn’t even hear a tree in the forest fall. I would want to you yell from the rooftops. Hey, this is important here. Do you know?   Morley Robbins: Well, I think that the issue is, if nobody knows about it, why would they pay attention to the research? Out of sight out of mind?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, but there it’s being the fact that it’s being researched, though, tells you there’s Oh, inquisitive minds out there like yourself.   Morley Robbins: Totally agree. No, it’s just and it’s intensely researched. I mean, it’s not just like, well, I’m kind of bored today. I think I’ll take a look. This is like we’re talking about a Manhattan Project.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So so to keep a prelude to part eight I would love to get you and I was hoping to talk about it today, but I don’t think we’re obviously gonna have time is the whole concept of ferroptosis Because that seems to be a big area of conversation when I’m doing the research with the nutrigenomics. And, and Bob Miller and I really want your chocolate and his peanut butter to talk together because every now and then I hear the importance of bioavailable copper in that whole process. So anyways, maybe we can talk about that next time. As far as again, I mean, just let our listeners know if they’ve been under a rock for a while. Where would they find all your information?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, social media. There’s a magnesium advocacy group. There’s also an RCP page RCP for root cause protocol, on the website RCP 123 dot o RG oodles of information, there’s a resource section that is enough to choke a horse. I’ve got a book, cure your fatigue, got a product, recuperate. Now it’s being supported by a suite of products with companies called Formula IQ. And you can just look up what they’ve got. And so we’re continuing to push back both the tide of lack of information. But, we’re also focusing on. what are some solutions that we can really rely on beyond the protocol itself. Let’s get to some specific components. And that’s really what we’re trying to bring forward.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate your mission and your purpose. And I’m so grateful that I’ve joined a friendship with you and I really appreciate all the things that you do. I’ll leave the sign-off for another time To be continued. And I look forward to our next conversation morally.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Joel, thanks so much for your time. Thank you The post How the PAM Enzymes Is Involved in Energy Production 101 [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com/what-is-the-pam-enzyme/] appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com].

If you would like to try the Formula IQ difference, my favorite RCP supplements ie: Beef liver, Adrenal cocktail, cod liver, etc. click here [https://bit.ly/DRJOELRCP] Be sure to use “Welcome10off” for 10% off your first order   Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And what a pleasure it is to be joined with Mike Casey. He is a multi-dimensional entrepreneur and the CEO and founder of Formula IQ, a Health Solutions leader and accelerator with a focus on expanding the boundaries of health through aligning partnered brands and products. Mike rose to become a prominent leader in the integrative health space, through his early years in the Health Solutions, supplement manufacturing, and disruptive marketing and technology industries. After assisting several health solutions, and disruptive tech companies accelerating from early stages to millions in sales, and after realizing the fundamental need for specialized attention and creativity in unifying brands, marketing, and product creations to the health solution front, Mike created what is now Formula IQ in 2013. Mike, we could go on, but I want to get to the meat and potatoes today. So thank you so much for joining me.   Mike Casey: It’s my pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, absolutely. So what we always like to get insight with our guests, Mike is how they got into the area that they got into in the health and wellness space. And being a disrupter and having this supplement company, tell me a little bit about your journey, and maybe your health background or any challenges that you might have been dealing with for you to ultimately get to the position that you’re in today.   Mike Casey: Sure, absolutely. You know, it’s funny, I used to tell this story in a different way of how I got into this space, we all have our own unique way of what prompted us to be in this industry. You know, I used to tell people that I have an athletic background, and I do I’m still a competitive athlete now. And that led me to supplements and wanting to work in the industry in the space. But, you know, as I’ve dug deeper over the years, I’ve gotten older and more perspective on things, I actually realized that you know, it was more of my upbringing, it was more of my, my teenage years as a child, you know, we were fed extremely unhealthy stuff. We had no idea at the time, you know, you know, I’m like I said, a competitive athlete now. But I was an extremely overweight child. And as I was coming up, my father had heart problems. He had a heart attack at a very early age. My mom also struggled with many different disorders and things as we were coming up. And the real answer to the question is, have we had all the money in the world as a family, but we had no answers? My dad had all the top procedures done and still had no answers, you know, being in his early 40s, and having to have a triple bypass on his heart, and not knowing why failed solutions for health for my mother, you know, it just led me to, to know that there had to be a different way, there had to be a better way. So I set out in my late teens actually knowing that I wanted to do something in the integrative health space, which is rare for people to know that his young age, but I was certain and so I dove in headfirst and began studying human nutrition food sciences and supplements just caught my interest because, to me, they created a bridge of health that was there for people who didn’t currently have it before.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome, awesome story. So yeah, not to not to discount the fact that you knew at such an early age, and that was as a response to just what your family members had been going through?   Mike Casey: Yeah, no, it was, it was realizing that you know, my father was one of the earliest people, he was one of the first patients to ever have robotic bypass surgery done. So you know, we had access to some of the greatest techniques, some of the greatest advancements out there. But, you know, looking back, I realized that the one thing that we never got, right was the nutrition, we never got the diet, right? And ironically enough, I tell this, this story, you know, here and there now, but my parents, my family were anti supplements, for some reason, they, they just, they classified them as bad they classified them as something that you shouldn’t do is dangerous. You know, I remember in my early teenage years, I got grounded for having protein powder. So if that tells you how anti-supplement they were, and it was, it was just a fact that they didn’t understand what they were utilized for. So it forced me to want to know why I needed answers. And the traditional medical system didn’t have them. So, you know, I knew that there was validity in the traditional medical system. But something was missing. There was something that was missing, that was keeping them from getting better because it was always one trip after the other to the doctor or to the hospital. And so there had to be another way. And it turns out, there weren’t other ways. So that’s kind of really what I set my life out to pursue what’s the complete path to health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. So take So maybe through those early years, what was the first venture that you did in pursuing that dream or goal?   Mike Casey: Sure, absolutely. So, you know, it’s funny, I started off with my earliest time, you know, I don’t talk about it too much. But I started off personal training, and then working in a nutrition store actually, that was, you know, I was like, how am I going to experience in this as I work my way through school and get educated? And so I did, I did that I was, you know, literally working around the clock, two jobs. And it taught me some stuff about supplements and the other and it taught me about the human body and how it worked and responded to exercise. You know, I had the great opportunity after that to go work with another company that had a really great piece of technology. And they had supplements paired with it. And it gave me an opportunity in my early 20s, to help them be a part of a company that was scaling and growing, and to really worked with the formulation of the supplements to work with how that paired with the technology and to work with integrative practitioners while at this company. So that was really, I would say, my first leap into the industry was doing that, because it gave me a chance to realize that I loved more than just supplements, I love more than just health, I loved the full picture of health. And more importantly, I learned and started understanding what it took to put together a formulation and what it took to make a supplement. But not just a supplement, but one that worked and understanding the quality of what goes into it because I think often that is really overlooked in today’s market.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, especially with the toxic Tagalongs and the excipients. And ultimately, we’ll get into who’s behind that, and who owns the companies as well, which I think it’s a great question to get into. So was PF IQ, the was the second company that you started, or?   Mike Casey: Yeah, F IQ was the second cobalt was the first company that I fully took ownership of and was the first full owner of so, you know, I’ve been part of creating and growing many other brands in the industry that are well known now today, you know, which I’m very proud of, and was very happy to be a part of, but FAQ was the first thing that was really mine, it was my first chance in 2013, to start something, and to do it on my own. And to really do it because there was a missing gap in the industry, there was nobody who was really looking at all factors, you know, you had people who were making supplements that were just great, and had really high standards of quality control. Or you had supplements who were companies over here who were making stuff, you know, in their basement or back room somewhere that had no quality control whatsoever. There was really no bridge between these two companies in the industry at the time, as well as the third tier to that I would say is that you know, there was a fad for many years. And you know, this is a practice where there were only companies that were there professional grade companies who offered good supplements that work that you could find combinations of things to maybe focus on one’s health specific topic, like anxiety or something. And then you had the lower-end retail products. But most practitioners were using singular ingredients. I mean, it wasn’t uncommon to walk into a doctor’s office, and to leave with, you know, 10 to 20 supplements of singular ingredients. And so you could walk in with anxiety and they could say, Okay, you need to take these five to seven singular products of individual ingredients to get the job done. And it was becoming really cost-prohibitive. And it was just becoming a huge headache for patients. And so I saw an opportunity in the market, I was like, There’s got to be a better way they wait, we need to create something that has helped specific, it’s simple. And that levels, the playing field that brings professional quality to everybody that doesn’t cost $60 A bottle like they just as someone who had had experience making products and understanding the cost of it. I knew that was just it was just absurd margins that were taking place and the industry is starting to get out of control. So our goal was to kind of come in and level the playing field, which is you know, we’ve done successfully over the years.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s great as an entrepreneurial mind seeing the opportunity gap and that’s what you saw on why not come up with an intelligent product and actually call it F IQ. Is that how the name was born? Or is   Mike Casey: Yeah, no, absolutely you know, F IQ formula IQ. It’s all about smart formulations. You know, smarter formulations, faster results. That was our tagline at first. And you know, I used to say all the time as well that health is formulated not supplemented. So the entire idea is a smarter way a better way to reach people to reach health. That’s absolutely the whole entire basis behind the F IQ and the creation of the name.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. And so you obviously I have interviewed Morley Robbins. several times on our podcast and you have somewhat aligned ships with Morley, but you’ve also been in existence through to 13. Till then. So what were you primarily focused on formula IQ-wise prior to him, and then we’ll sort of piggyback from there.   Mike Casey: So up until 2018, when I met Morley and the root cause protocol, you know, our main focus has been and continues to be still working with practitioners, you know, it’s, and that’s not to say that we haven’t sold to the general public into retail we have but my background has always been working with an integrative practitioner, whether it be a natural path, a chiropractor, we’ve got a handful of medical doctors who are in the integrative space. And so, you know, we made formulations that were health specific, and we sold them into, the health professional market space, so it was a resale. So most people found our products on the shelves of doctors’ offices. And so you know, the cool thing about our products is, they’re very easy to sell themselves. And they’re very easy to understand as a better way to put it. Everything that we make in our line has been helped specifically. So you look at our line, and we have roughly 25 skews now, and everything is exactly what it says it’s four. So you know, anxiety IQ, which is our flagship product, it’s very, it’s a smarter solution for anxiety, simple as that. So you know, info IQ for inflammation, sleep IQs, for sleep, I mean, it’s very simple. I mean, you like our doctors tell us all the time. And like, we don’t have to do any work, your products sell themselves like you just look at it, you know what it is, you know what it’s for. And when you take it, for the first time, it works, I think that’s the biggest disappointment that I’ve found over the years. And the one thing that we constantly are working on what the formulating of our products, is, we’re up against the pharmaceutical model here. So while there is a very vast difference between a pharmaceutical drug and a dietary supplement, people expect a result when they open a bottle, and take something. And I think that’s something that a lot of supplement companies forget, it’s not enough to make a good product, your product has to work, it has to work the first time that you take it from a patient or from a customer. And so that’s one of the things that we pride ourselves on, excuse me with our products everything that goes into it is about the effectiveness of it. So that’s something really unique and that comes from the sourcing process to how we formulate and how we put it together. You know, no, no two ingredients are the same. So there’s definitely a very stringent process when it comes to our products.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. Yeah, there are a couple of questions I have about that. But going back into the formulation of it all, how active of a role do you play in that might be? Are you doing the research on your own and figuring out what are the best nutrients that will yield those results kind of take me through the genesis of how a formulation happens.   Mike Casey: Sure. So obviously there has to be a demand for it. And as much as I like to take all the credit and say that I’m the smartest guy in the room, I’m not you know, I’m good at what I’m good at. So I’ve generally created the foundation for the formula. I love formulating stuff. I love understanding that each part of a plan plays a different role and can have a different effect on the body. That’s That’s true. That’s understanding the ingredients and the science behind everything. We do have third-party chemists. So we do once we put together a formula, we run it by them. So let’s take the recuperate IQ for example. I know that’s something we’ll get into with the RCP and work with Morley. So when I put together the recruit right products, it’s all about creating bioavailable copper for somebody. So we looked at the formula. We looked at the ingredients we said, okay, so what food sources are going to be the highest and copper? Well, we know there’s been a flipper well undefended, beef liver, primarily the source, where should it come from New Zealand or Argentina have the highest concentrations of minerals still active within them? Then we looked at a vegan source, which is spirulina we understand that spirulina can only come from one or two suppliers in the world, if not, they can contain contamination in the harsh on the body. So Hawaiian Bay, spirulina is what we use. So understanding where that comes from is very important. That’s going to that was the highest copper from a vegan source. So along with oxygenating, the blood, and many other benefits, then we said it’s still enough. This is where we sat down, we’re like it’s still not enough copper, it’s still not enough to move you know, to move the needle. So working with Morley, he, you know, his, his response was more copper the better. And so, that’s great. You know, but how much copper how much we can do much of a good thing that comes a bad day. There’s also digestibility so we had to look at how much copper is glycinate we add to it. Do we use copper bisglycinate you know, there’s copper, or take copper? glycinate copper hydrosol copper, there are many different forms. So, you know, we had to look at which type do we want to use copper one copper two, we landed on copper because glycinate because it’s copper neutral, meaning the body can digest it and utilize it in whatever form it needs to. Whereas like copper too is, it’s, it’s tin, well, copper one is 10 to one absorbable compared to copper to. So looking at supplements, you know, copper sulfate is a copper two product, which is typically for vegan sources. It’s just not as absorbable. So we landed on copper bis-glycinate. But then we had to ask the question, how much can a patient tolerate at one time? And the answer is, most people can handle about two milligrams or less roughly per serving. While we want to get more into them, we have to obviously put it with things that can allow them to do that. And of course, a lot of times the inflammatory response of the gut can be an issue. So we added a little bit of curcumin to it to help with the inflammatory response to the gut, which then creates a whole formula product. So hopefully that kind of gives you an idea of just an abridged version of what goes into putting together a formula.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. I appreciate that taking me through the whole conceptual idea. I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole. But I know that there are camps that get into the Hatfields and the McCoys sort of speak in terms of copper to is no good. And there’s no such thing as copper neutral, and it’s only got to be copper one. Maybe you can just give us a little idea on if that’s true if it’s not true.   Mike Casey: So there’s copper one, there’s copper two, and then there’s copper neutral copper zero, which that comes from Earth sources. So elemental form that comes from the earth, which means typically, copper based glycinate means that it’s being pulled from the glycine Salts of the Earth. So I think that’s where people get confused. That’s where they don’t understand that there is no such thing as copper zero, well, like my response would be, well, how does the Earth exist with it, then? So that’s really understanding the difference. So copper two is going to be primarily found in plant sources. There is a study that shows the difference between copper one and two I said, copper one is 10, to one in terms of absorption in the gut, to copper to that now, that’s not to say that you shouldn’t use either one of those is that either one of those are bad forms, you know, if you’re deficient in copper, I would prefer you get it, you know, from a good source or a good product than not at all. So I think we can all live in the world of what’s better, what’s purer what, what, what’s out there, but at the end of the day, we just need to get it because our soil and our food is depleted in it, therefore we are as well. So, you know, but for us, you know, the copper, the answer to your question, you know, copper neutral is usually the earth form of copper beans. So that’s extracted from Earth sources?   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, absolutely. I agree. I agree with you. And it would make sense that our body would be endowed with enzymes and systems to be able to take whatever form we’re getting and repackage it into the cell, some easier than others. As far as that’s the importance of the intelligence of the body and the formulation, right? So this is a good intro into, it’s not just about getting copper in there. It’s about all of these other supporting nutrients that will help, I guess, along the assembly line to make the widget that you’re looking to do, whether that’s energy or helping with anxiety or sleep, or whatever it is. Quick question, just from an aside from what you talked about, before, some companies are, are owned by pharmaceutical companies, and we’ll talk about that now. What what’s the difference with their particular product? Is it is is it not considered in terms of the intelligence of the product? Is there? Like what would be well, let’s get into that maybe you can just kind of take the conversation and I’m with it.   Mike Casey: No, I think that’s great, let’s just say, let’s just dive into it. You know, it’s a, it’s a fun topic where, you know, sometimes people are surprised by it, and sometimes people are not, but, you know, I think first and foremost, well, a lot of people don’t know, when they walk into a health food store, they walk into, they see, you know, a product on the shelf. Well, that could be Metagenics even something that you find at your doctor’s office, you know, Metagenics is they are in partnership with Ulta Corp, which is Amway, so the MLM if you’re familiar with them, so they’re all the same ownership. Nothing wrong with that. You know, you get into Nestle. Nestle is a big player in the supplement space, you know, they own pure encapsulations woven Zyme Garden of Life. They have a handful of supplements in their arsenal, Procter and Gamble, bought a new chapter so they all new Chapter A Um, you know, the one that I have a lot of fun with is Clorox as in the bleaching company, Clorox owns Renu life, which is the cleansing company. So, you know, no pun intended, they clean your sinks, they clean you out, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a weird combination, along with rainbow light meal sellers who they own as well, then, you know, you get down to, you know, schwa bones, in somatic therapy, all the way down to Atsuko ohms innate and mega food, which are common names as well. So I mean, we could go on and on and on. I’ll Suka is a pharmaceutical Chinese pharmaceutical company that makes a lot of drugs that we see here in America, too. So what does that mean? I usually say this, and people are like, Oh, my gosh, the pharma companies are involved in the products, that’s a terrible thing. That means that they’re no longer good and that we should not take them. That is not necessarily the case. On one hand, I look at it. And I say, imagine where these supplements are being made. Now, the clean rooms and the level of equipment that these guys have to be able to bruise produce these supplements are top-notch. So on the one hand, we have a much higher quality control environment for these products. So I think that’s the Pro. That’s we’ve got some consistency. You know, if the FDA goes in there, these guys are doing things by the book. I think that’s the Pro. That’s good, we’ve put some we’ve taken the wild wild west out of the equation, you know, we know what they’re doing. Now, what’s the con? I can tell you that the negative is that, you know, I could be wrong. But the negative in my opinion, is I guarantee you that there is nobody as passionate as myself that is sitting at Procter and Gamble, or sitting over at Schwab, or any of these companies sourcing the ingredients. They’re not sitting here third party testing them or testing them as they come in from the raw material suppliers and validating. Do they still have copper in their beef liver? You know, are they looking at whether are we using undefended beef liver versus, you know, you know, beef liver with fat in it? They’re not looking at the source. You know, in our whole food, vitamin C, we use omelet foods. People commonly asked me where does our food come from? Well, it’s also known as Indian gooseberry. So if that answers your question, it comes from Asia, that’s where it should come from. Now, you can also get it from China, just like you can most ingredients. So I would say the downfall is that the pharmaceutical companies are generally aimed more at profitability than then effectiveness and quality control determines the quality of the actual end products. So it goes back to my statement of it’s not enough that we make a good product. It’s not enough that our products third party tests excellence, our products have to work and they have to work the first time our customers take them. And I think that’s the difference that we look at is these companies, when they buy them out, they’re profiting on they’re trying to increase their profit margins. So they’re going to buy from raw material sourcing that is cheaper. Now that may shave a few pennies off and cents here and there which add up over time. But those ingredients are going to be void of the active alkaloids and the active minerals and sources and stuff that you really need to heal people with. So, in my opinion, that’s the trade-off. And I think that’s the downfall of it. I see good and I see bad, but, you know, if you’re going to take a supplement, you have to make sure it works. If not, why are we taking it because I tell people all the time, it’s not how much you take, it’s what you absorb. It’s what your body utilizes. So that’s why companies such as ourselves, or premier research labs, even you know, they they can get away with using a little bit and getting a lot out of it. Because the quality is there. They’re really looking at their sourcing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I appreciate that insight. It’s really great information. You know, you get what you pay for it really right? And I’ve actually done a tour through PRs labs, and I was really impressed with the quality control. And the mass spectrometry, when you say that, when you test it yourself is that what you’re doing is 100%.   Mike Casey: So, you know, a lot of companies so the FDA does not require you to if when you bring in an ingredient from a raw material supplier, when you order it, the raw material supplier will say here’s the here’s the testing, here’s the spec sheet. Now, nothing says that you have to test it before you use it to formulate again, you can blindly trust them because you have testing to use that ingredient. But companies like us and me research Bob Marshall out there, you know, he is retesting stuff. He’s validating that what is in the raw materials is actually in them when he receives them as an additional layer of testing prior to making the batch of products and so yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. And I think I think everyone should do that. But they don’t and that’s why no two ingredients are the same. I mean, we could have curcumin that is exactly the same as 95% curcuminoids. And that is exactly the same as sitting on two different pills. And one could be from, a source that has been sitting in a raw material warehouse that’s been preserved. The other one is going to be fresh, it’s going to be freshly ground. And it’s going to come from a live supplier that has a rich soil base and everything else that is aligned with the, you know, the specs that we demand. And one’s going to be felt when you take it. One is going to give relief and the other one not. If anything, it’s probably going to stress your digestive system because your body’s got to work extra now to get rid of this ingredient because they can’t pull anything out of it. It can’t properly align with you like it’s meant to in nature.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, excellent. And so for both. So basically, my understanding is the mass spectrometer gets to the idea of, are there any impurities? What’s the potency? And anything else that I’m missing that the letter does?   Mike Casey: Yes, correct. That’s, so that’s their method of testing was HPLC. Testing. There are many different forms. But the goal is just to break it down to test for, like you said, to make sure it is what it says it is. And then to see what is actively in it. I mean, I can’t tell you how many companies laced their ingredients.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You had to turn away stuff that was contaminated.   Mike Casey: Absolutely.  I had, I had a supplier one time send us beef liver that was fortified with copper. I mean, I didn’t even think we were there yet. I mean, it’s common to do that with you know, vitamin C products, I get that it’s common to do that with cod liver products. But you know, the fact that it was a beef liver and a fortified it with copper orotate. And it’s like you didn’t think you’d find this one. So it’s extremely, it’s common. And that’s, that’s the wild wild west. That’s the part that people you know, are always afraid of, you know, the supplement space is like, you never know what’s going into your products. And there is some truth to that, you know, there absolutely is there should be a healthy level of skepticism with this stuff. So, you know, there’s a little bit of truth to everything.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as you know, that Bob passed, though, right? Or did you know that?   Mike Casey: I know that I should know that, but I did not know that. Wow, he did.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes. been like four or five years now. I’m one of those artists guys I’ve ever been privy to give a lecture or hear a lecture from and I’ve been in a lot of lectures, he’s still sort of a luminary in my mind. But anyways, as far as one of the big things that he touted was, they don’t put toxic Tagalongs and excipients in their small batches. What does the FAQ do? Do you? Can you tell me a little bit about that?   Mike Casey: Yeah, same thing. So we did for a period of time use vegetable, magnesium steroid, or rice flour, or silica, because a lot of times, so I guess I should explain why people do that. First of all, so when you flow a product, when you make a product and you mix multiple ingredients together, if it’s a single ingredient, it should not be as big of a concern. But what happens is, it’s not necessarily about anything more than using something to keep the ingredients from taking or sticking together during the manufacturing process. So in our case, it was the vegetable magnesium and the silica because what that allowed for was the oils actually from the vegetable magnesium story, allowed the acted as a lubricant so that the ingredients would not cake together. So they could flow through the equipment to be then encapsulated without any problems, we have worked to remove those, which just creates more of a manual process for where the products now there are some supplement companies that will debate you and tell you that your body will digest the products better, there are articles out there that will state this with vegetable, magnesium salt, or magnesium stearic. synthetically, and I disagree with the synthetic version. I also disagree that our body needs those things to digest and utilize ingredients. I mean, our body’s very smart, if it needs something in the digestive system, it will pull it there and you know, break down the ingredients. So we’ve removed all of those things. I mean, there are companies out there who still use titanium dioxide, all kinds of you know, fillers and things in their products. And at the end of the day, those are just a shade cost down that allows them to get cost down. A lot of times they have to use them because they’re using a lower-quality ingredient in their product. That’s another trade-off for that. But, you know, I’m in agreement with Bob, you know, it’s funny because he was using it as an early inspiration for me. I interviewed with him actually, many, many, many years ago. And he gave me some great advice at that time. But he was the inspiration for a lot of stuff that we do. So we share a lot of the same viewpoints in terms of products.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. I had no idea. So it’s a pleasure to have mutual respect for someone and the concepts that they pioneered or at least embraced and I know that he gave out little binders I actually have one over there about it. The study’s on too much. I mean, you’re taking it daily, day in and day out silicone dioxide and talcum powder and all of these magnesium steroids and whether so anyways, that’s awesome. But as far as moving over into sounds like you saw an opportunity when Morley and the root cause protocol came up with the stops and starts and understood that there’s utility here, so maybe kind of take us through the genesis of working with him and what products you offer now with the skews of that formula of those formulas?   Mike Casey: Sure, no, I think it was, it was a great synergy. When Morley and I met, you know, I met, I had a call with morling, an introduction through a good friend of ours. She’s very talented. As a practitioner, I talked with Morley on the phone, we spoke for about 20 minutes, and I hung up the phone him just to give you some context, and I said, I’m going to work with this guy, we’re going to do something together, I had no idea what it was going to be at the time we hadn’t. And, you know, talking to him, he felt the same way. We had no idea what we were going to do together, we just knew that we were going to do something. So fast forward. Morley came to me a little bit, and a couple of months later, we went to dinner. And he’s like, I want to create a copper supplement. And I gotta be honest with you, nobody talks about copper and the medical industry, you know that I know that. I knew it was a great anti-fungal product. I knew copper was great for anti-inflammatory stuff. But, you know, there was the lingering fear of copper toxicity. You know, you typically don’t look at Copper unless you have something wrong with the liver. But then you look at those markers. So it was new. And we kind of pioneered this space of creating a copper supplement and understanding that people are deficient in copper. And there’s a reason for that, you know, and I think the RCEP I think a lot of people, they probably get this conception that the RCEP is only about copper. The RCEP is not only about copper, and this is why we’ve partnered with Morley, the RCEP is about restoring balance to essential vitamins and minerals, mainly the minerals and that mean that you know, iron is not something that is not important. I think, you know, we we we talk about, you know, anemic and people taking iron is not to say that iron isn’t important, we just have too much of it. We have too much of it in our body, we have fortified our foods with it to the point of fortifying foods with it, we are getting enough of it, and we are getting plenty of it. We do not need more. But the one thing the one mineral the two minerals, I would say which are the core pieces of the RCP is that everyone is deficient and and this is tracks on blood work is copper and magnesium. And that is because we live in a very stressful world. You know, we can’t eliminate stress. You know, who are we kidding? You know, if we could that’s that would be the secret you know that the topic of what you do. We can’t limit it. We can’t get rid of stress, emotional stress, lifestyle stress. And we’re not probably going to get rid of oxidation either which is internal stress and toxic and toxic and you know, pieces. So when I met Morley in the RCP root cause protocol, to date, I had never offered a multivitamin. I had never offered foundational nutritional supplements and people thought I was crazy. And I always knew and it went against my teachings. And they went against my beliefs that people should not be taking synthetic vitamin and mineral supplements there, they were the wrong ratios, and they were causing more harm than good. Like there just wasn’t a foundational platform out there of something that I could really wrap my mind around to say this is right. And I worked with a lot of doctors, and we today I had not found a solution that I could say is something that you know, 80% of the population could benefit from doing every day as a foundational piece. And so when I went through Morley’s work, and we started talking it put the pieces, we put the pieces together, it was all of the different pieces I’ve learned over the years. You know, I’ve always thought that people should not be taking mega doses of vitamin D. I do not think people should be taking tons of zinc supplements. And I think people are deficient in magnesium and core minerals. And so it really just tied it all together, even though it challenges everything you’re taught in, you know, to traditional education. But it really just brought everything together. And so we worked with him to create products that were aligned with his research to say this is the foundation. These are the things that you can do to restore energy in your body into clear oxidation or exhaust or whatever you want to call it. These are the foundational things that you should take every day. They’re the core root of health issues. Use for just about everything and everyone, if the body can create enough energy, it can heal itself. And that is that one principle that every medical model has at the basis of it is if we can, our body has enough energy you can heal. And that is really what the root cause protocol is about that which is through restoring ancestral principles in essential minerals and vitamins and their correct forms and ratios.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Yeah, I agree. 100% I gotta admit, I got caught with my pants down for this interview, because I was familiar with recuperate. And I know that you’re adding new new new lines, or new skews and new products that were consistent, but I don’t know the specific ones and or the doses. So maybe tell us though, getting into you guys have made live the the new quickstart guide that maybe has built upon the stops and starts. So let’s talk a little bit about that, and why you felt the need to do that. And then how does the line of products that you have fit into that?   Mike Casey: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, one of the things, as someone who’s worked in the supplement space for this many years now that I’ve, I’ve really understood, and you will appreciate this as a practitioner, and doctors, they tell me this all the time, is practitioners and doctors are great at telling people what to start taking, but they are terrible at telling people what to stop taking. Right. And for the life of me. I mean, I see it, I hear about it every day, people walk into their doctor’s offices with grocery bags of just, you know, sometimes 20 and 30, plus different supplements. And I’ve seen people taking three different B vitamins, three different brands of vitamin C, and they don’t even realize it. And it’s all because someone put them on it at this period of time. And they just never told them to stop. So, you know, why is a need for is? I think that has to stop. I think someone needs to say, Okay, enough is enough. Why do we need to stop doing this? More importantly, then is, you know, these items that we should not be taking, you know, high amounts of synthetic vitamin D we should be getting sunshine instead. You know, too many zinc supplements because they can disrupt copper in our body. You know, we should stop taking synthetic multivitamins Is that the wrong ratio? So, these are the things we stop. And then what do we start taking? Like what are the essential things that we need? Well, we know we’re deficient in copper. So we created, a protocol to recuperate, we know that people need magnesium. So we created different magnesium products, we know that you need retinol to activate copper. So we created cod liver oil. So the goal was to really create a turnkey line that, excuse me, that really helps people. That really helps people just know what to start knowing and what to start doing. And I think that’s missing in the industry today. It’s like, you walk into a health food store. And you have a whole slew of options. But what do you take? And why do you take it? That’s the question that everybody really needs to know.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Absolutely, sorry that you got choked up there. You are about your line, you know, so as far as Okay, so, the other things that I was curious to know about are that you mentioned that you had two areas of focus with your supplement company. So tell me a little bit about that.   Mike Casey: Yeah, so two years of focus, which I think we’ve covered. This point is health-specific formulas, which is you know, you somebody has anxiety, our line is really simple. Even recuperate the copper products, you know, it’s what is it doing its recuperate, the name implies itself, it’s, it’s restoring copper, it’s restoring bioavailable copper and I think that’s another thing that needs to be mentioned with the RCEP Quixtar or even more or less work is I think the whole entire basis of it is understanding that it’s not just about minerals, it’s about in vitamins, it’s about bioavailable nutrients, minerals and vitamins so you know too much of you know, copper unchecked can be a bad thing too much of iron unchecked is a bad thing. Too many synthetic vitamins unchecked is a bad thing. We need bioavailable nutrients. So that’s really the two focuses of our company and really overall with our formulas is that everything that we have, we want to be bioavailable. And I think that you know, we talked about with Bob Marshall and his line that was his whole basis to like what you take should work it should be available for utilization to be in its right form the right amount and you may not need a ton of it for sure. You know, I think that’s that’s a lot of things time some people as well with supplements as they die. into heavy, they dive in, they think, you know, more of this is good and too much of a good thing can become a bad thing, you take too much magnesium out the gate, you could have, you know, regulation issues, knowing the bathroom too much, you know, you take too much whole food vitamin C, you could have, you know, overactive adrenals because most of the vitamin C in our body is stored in our adrenal glands and in the brain. So, you know, we have to be mindful of these things. So, for us, you know, it’s held specific formulas, and then foundational formulas were the two areas which, you know, is always served us very well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. No, I appreciate that. I thought about where you were gonna go because when we were talking a little bit earlier, one of your big demos has always been educating the provider and reaching out to the provider. And then the other side was the retail side, but awesome information. I mean, I learned a lot here, Mike, and I appreciate your diligence and your your your mission. Is there a mission that you initially adopted to kind of guide your principles of all the things that you do?   Mike Casey: We want to shift health? You know, I think that’s a very big statement. But if we can shift health, and we can level the playing field, by bringing the knowledge that integrative health professionals have to everyone, I think we can shift health. And I think shifting health means bringing truth, bringing the truth about health to people. And I say that as someone who’s obviously extremely successful, but over the years, in my early years, I found that a lot of the best information in the top information with the top practitioners was unobtainable, it was unaffordable, you couldn’t get to it, you couldn’t reach it, you couldn’t, you just couldn’t access it. And to me, it was what what’s the use of that, you know, we want the truth. And we want to shift health, and we want everyone to be healthy. You know, I tell people all the time, you have no idea how bad you feel until you feel good again, and I’m sure you see that with your patients as we get used to the fact that we’re supposed to live with anxiety. We’re supposed to live with these aches and pains. We’re supposed to live with fatigue, as soon as you teach a lot in the answer, you know, the comeback to the No, you’re not. Like that’s not supposed to be part of everyday life. And so my mission is to shift that to change that. And I believe that supplements are the bridge, you know, they’re not the magic bullet. The name supplement implies itself, you know, what, what are supplements there, there’s something that you’re having to take, because you’re not willing to do something else, you know, if, if I don’t want to eat this, I don’t want to do this lifestyle change? Well, you’re gonna have to supplement it, it’s a buffer because you don’t want to make another decision. So I believe food first should always be the approach. But if you’re not going to do certain things, the supplements and so that really ties it all together. It’s just reaching people through supplements to give them that bridge to help. Because if I can help you see how good you can really feel, and it’s affordable, and it works. I can change the rest of your life. I think that’s really our mission. That’s what we set out to do in a smarter way. Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. And I would just add on that, even if you are willing to do whatever it takes a lot of the time, just the food supply, the mineral concentration, the glyphosate, the high fructose corn syrup, the iron enriched foods, the fear-based media, all of the above is just not enough to to get the amounts that you need. That’s going to help improve your overall health. So awesome, awesome information. Mike, I appreciate it. One of the things we always ask our guests in parting is what do you wish you would have known then that you know now that might have accelerated your journey or helped you overcome any challenges are just giving you a little bit of a quicker User Guide to get to where you want it to go quicker?   Mike Casey: Sure not? That’s a great question. You know, there’s so many things, I think in terms of health, in terms of just overall health and this particular topic and what we’re discussing here today, I wish that I would have realized the importance of prevention earlier. And I say that you know, I’m in my mid-30s. Now, still young, but so many people, wait with their health until they’re on the brink of death. They wait until tragedy strikes, they wait until something happens. So let’s go back to you know, my father when what motivated me in the beginning with all this with the heart problems? What if he had changed his diet? You know, what if he had done a CT calcification score test earlier? What if he had done all of these different things? And I think that’s the biggest thing I wish I had told my younger self and I think that anybody should really understand is don’t wait until something happens to get healthy. Like that is that will be the downfall for The rest of your life because people make their health a future self problem. And unfortunately, once you have something like that happen to you, you’ll never be the same. And so get ahead of it. And I think you’ll have a much richer life for it and doing so.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Well, I don’t think you have to worry too much. I mean, if you were thinking of a supplement line or supplement industry in your teens then really should have started when you were five, and you’re regretting that you didn’t think about preventative health until you were in your teenage years. So I agree with you on this, it’s never too late. You know, the best time is to start before but the next best time is now. So I appreciate your all your insights and information. I definitely will post links to these to the site to your websites and to the product lines. I don’t know if we were able to give sort of a discount for listening to this podcast is that possible?   Mike Casey: Like, I can now give us a like and get a small discount code. We’ll set something up for you guys underneath BROZEN, we can make that the coupon code. That way, listeners and followers can use that. So use Rosen at the time of checkout. And of course, the website is activated F iq.com. If you want to do the Quickstart program, act activate F iq.com forward slash RCEP. So we try and keep it really simple for you guys.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Well, listen, I appreciate your time. And I wish you future success. And I’d love to be able to keep the door open for another interview when you’re telling me about all these other amazing stuff that you got online and we can share those insights as well. So thank you so much for your time today, Mike. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. If you would like to try the Formula IQ difference, my favorite RCP supplements ie: Beef liver, Adrenal cocktail, cod liver, etc. click here [https://bit.ly/DRJOELRCP] Be sure to use “Welcome10off” for 10% off your first order The post What They Don’t Want You to Know Decoding the Supplement Industry [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com/decoding-the-supplement-industry/] appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue [https://thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com].