Continued Conversations with Sara McKinley

Continued Conversations with Sara McKinley

Trigger Warning: In our conversation, we discuss diet culture, weight, and numbers pertaining to these topics. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone please welcome Sara McKinley to Continued Conversations! Sara and I met through the acting world, and I’ve been wanting to chat with her for a while now, so I’m thrilled she joined me for a conversation about body image! Sara comes from the world of acting, and she also shares her lens on personal injury and navigating chronic pain. In our conversation, we discuss… * Navigating diet culture when represented by a parent * Sara’s experience navigating a chronic illness * How the medical system’s recommendation of “just lose some weight” isn’t always the answer * Getting used to viewing yourself as an actor * Being forced to sit face-to-face with yourself as a means to work through your personal self-image hurdles and biases * How injury impacted Sara’s relationship with her body * Advocating for yourself and deeply listening to what your body needs, especially living with a chronic illness * We’re the ones who notice our bodies’ fluctuations the most Along with diving deep into the throes of moving through a personal injury that impacted her life and career, as well as discussing how she’s affected by chronic pain on a daily basis, Sara so delicately opened up about the lessons she learned from her dad’s dieting, as well as sharing her own relationship with food. Healing from diet culture is not linear, and I’m grateful to Sara for talking about this subject, along with others, so compassionately. I truly, truly cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “ I think the hardest part for me is when it's something you deal with every day or almost every day or so much in your life, at what point do you know when it's something you can push through and when it's something you have to listen to? I was at the gym the other day, and I was like, “I just don't have the energy to be here.” If I pushed through, would I have more energy at the end of it, or do I need to listen to my body and go home? It's really such a hard thing to kind of figure out for yourself, and you're kind of just like guessing, you know? At what point do I feel like I'm being lazy if I don't try, or am I listening to my body?” - Sara McKinley Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 11-minute and 24-second mark: Megan Gill: I’m curious to know, as an actor, how has your relationship with your body and your self-image influenced how you show up in your work in that realm? Sara McKinley: Yeah, I feel not being stick thin and watching all of these people get cast that are, some things you – you can’t even change that about yourself. I’m never gonna be that skinny, even if I tried, which I shouldn’t. But there’s the body image that way. And I think for me personally, my biggest insecurity is my double chin, and even just in self-tapes, having to position my camera in a certain way so that I don’t see myself having a double chin when I look back at it, you know? And some of that stuff nobody else even notices. It’s just you. Even me, I got my headshots last week, and looking at my headshot from my eyes, I’m like, “Well, that’s wrong, and that’s wrong, and I don’t like that, and I don’t like that.” And then having other people look at them and be like, “I don’t see any of that.” I think that’s the biggest thing is you have to get so used to seeing yourself and knowing that that’s not how other people are seeing you. It’s just how you, you, yourself, are seeing you, and you’re seeing all the parts that you don’t wanna see right away, that’s what stands out first. So I think that’s the hardest thing is – sometimes I’m like, “Oh, well if I lost the extra 10, 20 pounds that I wanna lose, then maybe my double chin would go away.” But also, maybe it wouldn’t, you know? Megan Gill: Yeah. Sara McKinley: That doesn’t necessarily – that’s not necessarily something that’s gonna go away. That is just how we were built, you know? And another chunk of conversation jumping to around the 17-minute and 40-second mark: Megan Gill: I know that you have dealt with, in recent times, a lot of injury. You had injured your back, which is a big deal. I mean, I’m curious to know how, having gone through that and working through that, has also affected your relationship to your body or how you modified or navigated those times. Because injury, and especially as an actor too, when your physical body is such a part of your work, it has a big impact on how we could view ourselves too. So I’m curious to hear about your journey with that. Sara McKinley: Yeah. Yeah, so I broke my back two years ago. I got a compression fracture in my T12s from falling off my horse. I was in a back brace for three months, which was hard because, one, I couldn’t really audition for three months because you can’t really book anything when you can’t bend or twist or lift. I talked to my agents, and I was like, “If it’s an audition for something far enough out, you can submit me to it. But generally –.” I think I did two auditions in my back brace. I was like, just throwing ‘em out there. But yeah, it was hard because that year, so in January, I had hired a personal trainer, an online trainer, and I just started. I was gonna commit to figuring out my health issues, because I had chronic pain too, before that happened. And the funny thing is I actually made an appointment for physical therapy for my hips the day I broke my back, and I had to call them and be like, “Actually, I can’t go to physical therapy for my hips, because now I can’t do anything.” And so, yeah, I was maybe two weeks into my workout program and tracking my food and everything, and I was like, well, now I’m in a back brace. Luckily, I worked it out with them that I could pause my program that I paid for and wait three months. But having that motivation and then being stuck with now you can’t move hardly at all for three months. And also wearing a back brace in public, it’s just not, it’s not attractive. So dealing with that too, it was hard. I think the biggest thing is I’m really independent, so needing to ask for help and stuff was hard. Not being able to, I mean, just not being able to move very much. It was difficult, and honestly, it was really only for the first month that it was really that hard. I started to kind of phase out of the back brace in the last month and a half, but just even – I used to do background work, and I couldn’t even do background work because I was like, “They’re gonna make me sit in a hard chair for hours at a time where I’m gonna have to try to hide the back brace or all of this stuff.” And I was like, I just have to commit to not doing anything for several months. It was the beginning of the year, it was February, it was like, I know it’s pilot season, and I know there are auditions happening, and I’m not doing any of it. So that was frustrating. And then, yeah, just not being able to be active, and yeah. I could have eaten healthy while I was laying on a couch, but of course I didn’t, which surprisingly I wound up losing weight. But most of it was probably muscle because, you know, you wear a back brace for three months; you’re losing all of that core muscle that holds you up. Yeah, I think the interesting thing is how motivated I was afterwards. I was back in the gym, I was back riding my horse right after three months. Megan Gill: Wow. Sara McKinley: I wound up being probably the fittest I’ve ever been that summer and fall, which helped a lot because I needed to build all that muscle back up. And then, of course, I wound up gaining 20 pounds back, but, you know, fluctuation, that’s how it goes. Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I feel you. Sara McKinley: But yeah, I think the hardest thing was just having to take a pause and feeling you couldn’t really do anything and you were just waiting for it to be better. And also just the frustrating thing of like, I’m already chronically ill, and I already have chronic pain, and now I have such a big injury to deal with on top of it. Yeah, it was not a great time. But, you know, I luckily recovered pretty well from it. I didn’t need surgery, and I just… Megan Gill: Thank goodness. Sara McKinley: Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I never even got my hospital bill, which is, which is good because they were saying that my insurance wasn’t taken at that hospital, so I just don’t question it. Megan Gill: Yep. Nope. Perfect. Love that for you! Sara McKinley: Yeah. I feel the only way it really affected my acting was not being able to do auditions. And that’s the hardest thing as an actor is you spend so much time waiting around for anything to begin with, and to have – I mean, at that point I had been in LA for almost five years, so you’re trying at any point to build any kind of momentum, so to have to stop is hard, when it’s not your choice, especially. Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah, I’m so sorry that happened, and I appreciate you for sharing about it. And also, I want to point out how, to go off of what you said about how you had so much motivation after the fact, how incredible that not only you healed so quickly, that your body was able to heal itself, and that you were able to just get back in it. Do you feel you had a different appreciation for the overall function of your body and what it can do for you after you had gone through that experience? Sara McKinley: I think it’s hard because I already have such a not-great relationship with my body just because of the lack of functionality to begin with, of just I can’t get it to operate a lot of days just on a normal basis, just because of how I exist. But I think if I think about it, I’m like, wow, it’s crazy how well I healed from an injury like that when I feel so terrible on most days, you know? And yeah, it could have been so much worse. And the way I fell, I could have also shattered my pelvis, or I could have broken a bunch of things. And the fact that only one single vertebra was compressed and nothing else is kind of crazy. So yeah. And I’m like, maybe, in a way – my body’s really hypermobile, which is part of my issues, and I’m like, maybe in a way that saved me a little bit when I fell. I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s a real thing or not, but yeah, I think the motivation was just like I don’t like not feeling strong, so what I can do is try to get stronger. So the fact that I couldn’t do that for three months, I think coming out of that I was like, now I need to, because if I don’t build back the muscle in my core, then I’m gonna continue to be in pain. Because I think, you know, building the muscle back up is what made the pain less afterwards, you know? Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. What an interesting piece to hear you say that maybe your hypermobility, which is something that causes you a lot of pain on a daily basis, could have potentially been something that saved you from a deeper injury. Sara McKinley: Yeah. Megan Gill: Whether that’s true or not, it’s really lovely that you have that thought about it and that like – I am so sorry that you suffer from chronic pain on a daily basis. I do not know what that’s like, and I have a lot of sympathy for you, and I’m just feeling for you in terms of how that goes. But I just love that you shared that and that you’re able to look at it from that perspective. “ I think that’s kind of the biggest thing for me is just like gotten there and then losing it and then wanting to get back there and then, you know, that battle of honestly just 20 pounds is the whole difference. People looking at you, they can’t tell the difference. It’s just about you at that point. And sometimes it’s about, “Oh, I used to be able to plank for a minute. I felt so strong, and now I can’t even do 10 seconds, and now I feel so weak, and I don’t like feeling weak,” and, you know, all of that. I don’t think it probably affects my acting that much because it is such a small difference. Sometimes I’m like, “Oh, my acting profile says I’m this weight, and I gained 10 pounds. And what if they care?” And they never do because they don’t see your body, and they don’t know what that weight looks like on your body.“ - Sara McKinley Hi, I’m Sara McKinley! I’m an actress, published author, former dog trainer and long time equestrian, originally from Ann Arbor, Michigan. I got my BFA in Acting from Michigan State University and have been in LA for almost 7 years now. I love to read, travel, hang out with my animals and do anything creative. I’m a huge MCU and fantasy fan, and I hope one day I get to play a role in something similar! My dream is to ride horses for movie productions or work with dogs on set, while also acting as well! Follow Sara on Instagram! [https://www.instagram.com/saramckinley/] Sara’s IMDb [https://www.imdb.com/name/nm11341419/] Buy Sara’s (beautiful) book! [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09XZMPNT6?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_D9SRCZVBRE32S4P1DXWF&ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_D9SRCZVBRE32S4P1DXWF&social_share=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_D9SRCZVBRE32S4P1DXWF&bestFormat=true] Sara’s Actors Access [https://resumes.actorsaccess.com/saramckinley] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 If you want to be a part of the conversation… either reach out to me via email at themegangill@gmail.com to schedule a conversation or fill out this form [https://airtable.com/appfBhngQH3gNY5LF/pagGShESknIOiuYjY/form] to share your body image story anonymously. A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * That being said, I welcome your support of my guests in the comments. Please be kind and considerate with your words. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire collective reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our society’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might be interested in being a part of the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Evan Neilson

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss weight, weight loss, diet culture, over-exercise, disordered eating habits, and more. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone please welcome Evan Neilson to Continued Conversations! Evan is my very first male guest on this series!!! Evan and I were connected through his sister, Megan Neilson (who I’ve known for many years now), and I’m so grateful he was open to chatting body image in the arts with me! Evan comes from the high school and college theatre world, as do I, and he is now an educator with special ed students and still works within the arts and performs today. Our self-image stories of growing up as young kids and coming into adulthood were oddly aligned, so it was truly a joy to dive into this topic with Evan. In our conversation, we discuss… * Being the token “non-thin” (or, as we said in the nineties, “husky”) role both onstage and in real life in high school * The intersection of thin bodies being cast in leading roles and Evan’s journey with that very experience both in his acting and in his real life - and flipping that on me, where I share my story with this exact experience as well * The dieting industry and the explosion of social media impacting our self-image as young people * The freshman 15, a negative/toxic “grindset” in college, and the competition amongst male friend groups when it comes to fitness * The college environment driving Evan to adopt disordered eating habits * The lack of education on how to best fuel our bodies: “All food is better than no food” * Moving out of the all-or-nothing mindset when it comes to food and exercise * Rewiring our brains to be kinder to ourselves and our bodies * Leading from a place of grace and care and joy - and most importantly, by example of being true and genuine to yourself * Supporting kids (and all people) operating at medium capacity instead of 100% evry single day * The harmful impacts of “looksmaxxing” on men in our current society Evan is a joy of a gentleman, and I have been thinking about this conversation ever since we recorded. There are so many important points we touched on here. We opened the book and talked through a lot of poignant themes within body image specifically when it comes to the male experience, and I cannot wait for you to hear our very important conversation! “ Like you mentioned, how guys talk about it or engage with it or not engage with it, it's just different, you know? Just kind of the one-off comments of, “Ah,” you know, “I'll get in shape one of these times.” That's kind of the vibe, and it becomes a competitive thing with the people within male friend groups. And going to a college gym, I mean, a frightening idea. There are so many things I would do before stepping into the lower level of the Arc [college gym] again, you know? Working out around people, it's just not for me.” - Evan Neilson Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 30-minute and 55-second mark: Evan Neilson: I don’t know who said it or where I heard it from, but it’s been in my brain more recently is those moments where either you say something unkind to yourself, or you think, “Oh, maybe I don’t need this,” or, “Yeah, maybe I want this, but I’m not gonna get it.” Everyone in the arts community, especially, we all want to put good out there into the world and be good people to be around. You are also a person, you know? You are also a person to be nice to, and so, you being nice to yourself will have as much, if not more, of an impact compared to you being nice to another. And so, that goes beyond just body stuff, but just, you know, doing things that you like, doing stuff that brings yourself joy. Going back to hustle culture, you know, I’m on spring break, and I’m like, I just feel so – what am I – what can I be doing right now? I’m wasting this time. And then it’s like, oh, there are actually many things I enjoy doing that are just as helpful for me in the long term and in the short term than me doing something that feels more productive or important, what have you. Yeah. Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s rewiring our brains. Evan Neilson: Kind of. Kind of, yeah. And it just takes time. It really does take a lot of time. And thinking back to – I’m not in therapy currently, but I did a little bit of therapy after getting outta school. Not to focus on the body stuff, because I had therapy for a couple of years during school. It was more focused on my anxiety. My anxiety got really bad right after finishing school. And I actually learned that’s kind of a common thing is right after you graduate college, your worries become less about your grades – your worries about your grades go away, and then it becomes, “I think I’m gonna get murdered,” you know? That’s what it turned into for me, for whatever reason. And so, I was going and seeing a therapist for that, and once we kind of started to finish up, you know, for whatever reason, a few months in, he was like, “It’s interesting.” Even at that point, he was like, “You’ll say, ‘I struggle with my body,’ but that’s good. I’m done with that now.’” I still, at that point, was kind of pushing it away like, you know, a box that you don’t wanna unpack, you know, in the basement or whatever. I was still kind of treating it that way. But now, with just some more distance and looking back on it, and then yeah, thinking about it in the sense of I treated myself that way, in the same way you think about if I treated another person that way. It’s like, have grace for yourself and patience, but also like, yeah, it’s fucked up I did that. So I’m at that point now where more stuff is maybe – with some more distance, I can kind of process and intellectualize things a little bit more. Again, not always the best thing to do, to intellectualize your feelings and your body and stuff, but I feel like I’m at a point now where I think just the more and more experience I have in working with students that, you know, frankly, have way more difficult and complicated lives than I had as a child. Those things that you say to them or things that you want them to understand or process, they start to make their way back to you, eventually, as the teacher. And so, yeah, now I think working in special ed where some students may have learning disabilities, some students come from an emotionally difficult home, so they struggle to regulate their emotions in the school environment and stuff. Again, going back to internalizing a bunch of stuff you saw as a kid, you know, I’m trying to put messages out there, and the other people I work with are trying to put messages out there to kids. And some of that stuff does start to, you know, work back to you. Like, for example, I have a colleague who’s just awesome, an xperienced special ed teacher. She’s firm in expectations, but also is just the most gentle person. She started throwing out there at least medium effort as an expectation, where, yeah, we’ve been told that we need to do as much as we possibly can at every second, operate on 100%, you know, capacity. But it’s like, not every day is gonna be that. I feel like I’ve said that to – I’ve said, “Not every day is gonna be an 100% day,” to kids, a lot. But then when you start to take in what it means yourself, as a, you know – I mean, I’m almost 26, so again, I am an adult. I’m almost there. In a few years, I’ll be there. Yeah, if you’re operating at 50% capacity, that’s okay. Megan Gill: Yeah. Evan Neilson: Especially if you already worked the previous day or, you know, have other stuff going on. Not every day is gonna be your, your rockstar day, and that’s fine. Fill that space with, you know, the more joyful things you want to do and that kind of stuff. Megan Gill: Yeah, because joy is so important, for sure. And also, we have to give ourselves grace. We have to give our bodies grace. We have to give our minds grace. And I think that that’s so, so wonderful that you and your colleague are putting that information out there, especially planting it in young people’s minds. I’m curious to know if there’s anything else that – everything that you had gone through in terms of your upbringing and your relationship to your physical body, if there’s anything else like that that you are doing with your students or things that are a part of your story that you’re trying to almost give back to the young people you’re working with today, in a sense. Evan Neilson: Yeah, I mean, like anybody who became a teacher, you have the teachers you think back on. It’s like, okay, I really would like to emulate what those guys were doing for me and my peers. And going along with that, you have the bad ones. And it’s like, okay, I definitely do not want to emulate that person. So that’s a thing for me, for sure. I think for, I mean, now obviously all young people need a boost, need our help, need everything we can give them. But young men, you know, these guys aren’t gonna see as many male teachers coming up through high school and stuff, just given the political state of things and how easy all these guys can get ensnared into this stuff, you know, and just try to show – well, unfortunately, I’m not really allowed to make, you know, soapbox political stuff in the classroom, even though, you know, I may like to. I’m trying to show a more realistic – I don’t know if realistic is the right word, but, you know, not traditionally masculine in the classic Hollywood sense. But, so just being someone who, you know, is willing to look silly. That’s a big part of being a teacher. You know, showing them that you can make a fool of yourself. I’m pretty open with the passions I’m into, so there is a student who is very much hyper-fixating on Hamilton right now. And so, for me, I’ve moved on, but at that time, for me, it was very intense. Ask anybody I know. The Hamilton era for me was extremely intense. So given that, you know, I’m like, oh yeah, I know everything you’re talking about, this girl who’s kind of just getting into it. Then yeah, trying to just keep a cool head in situations. You know, just these young men that just get so angry, that are angry at themselves, angry at, you know, authority figures in their lives, angry at politicians or whoever else, just trying to show them to accept things and, of course, be be kind and loving to the women in their lives as well. I mean, going back to this line of gender, really just not how I’ll talk to a female student or a male student. I’m the same calm person, and for these kids of the school that I’m at, you know, these are kids that struggle to get to school, many of them. And so, I’m gonna do everything I can to get them to want to come back. So, you know, be someone who is – you know, I think back. I had a couple, like – yeah, sometimes elementary school teachers, they get weirdly comfortable, and they’ll make a weird comment about your belly or something. Like, those are things that stuck with me, you know? Megan Gill: Yeah. Evan Neilson: I was getting in a costume for, it was a musical or a school play or something. And my belly got poked, and she was like, “Just watch that, there.” There was a poke. I’m certain there was a poke. So I mean, yeah, no it’s crazy. Megan Gill: An educator. Evan Neilson: Yeah. It wasn’t my teacher, but it was someone who was helping with the school play, or something like that. Megan Gill: Still! Evan Neilson: They were like, “We want to make sure this costume stays on you, buddy.” You know, that kind of thing. And so, I’m probably overly cautious to a lot of these issues, but it’s better than the alternative, you know? Megan Gill: Absolutely. I think we need some more of that, you know? Evan Neilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just drawing those clear boundaries, you know, and yeah, just showing kids what the right things are to say, and the right ways to respond in situations and what the clearly wrong ways are. And yeah, so just doing what I can to – you know, I mean, it’s tough for these young guys, you know, in this very – going back to, I mean, this is a whole can of worms, but right-wing politics and body standards, there’s some synergy there. Megan Gill: Yep. There sure is. Evan Neilson: So, trying to communicate all of that with my eyes and not being able to say it, you know, as much as possible. Megan Gill: You’re like, “I am transmuting messages to you right now, from my brain to your brain!” Evan Neilson: I really try to. I really try to. Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s gotta be tough, though, to not be able to maybe, as an educator, educate on things that are so important to us, you know? Because it’s not the place in a school. That’s tough. It’s gotta be tough. Evan Neilson: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a tough time right now for educators. Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, I think, yeah, you really can just try and embody your political views and how you see the world just by the way you act, right? So yeah, I don’t know. I’m in a school where we’re really just happy that they’re there, and we’re so thrilled and happy to get them to the finish line of graduation that I couldn’t see how anybody who, you know – I couldn’t see anybody who is okay with everything going on in this school environment that is all about, you know, picking these kids up that really need it, really need it, and don’t have the support at home. And somehow, SNAP benefits and free school lunch, that became a talking point within the last few months. And all these, all these kids get that. And just being sure to not make different obstacles that students go through, not trying to, you know, have those things be the kids’ defining features. And yeah, just being that kind, calm person every day. That’s always kind of the goal. And yeah, specifically thinking about body image and all that. At this point, I’m feeling very body neutral, body neutral-positive right now. So I’m just trying to communicate that with my eyes, as I said. “ I do love my brain. There's a lot of silly knowledge in there. I'm a trivia person, so I like to say there's some stuff I wish that I could clear out so there could be room for more useful stuff, but I do like that about my body a lot. But then on a more physical level, I love to run. I love to run on a primal level. I love to run for no reason. I love to run from my car to the doors of Jewel Osco for no reason. When I'm out walking the dog, and the dog starts to run, I'm going with. It's very primal.” - Evan Neilson Evan is a special education teacher and lover of many things- movies, theatre, music, dogs, basketball, running, biking… OH, and ice cream! Outside of the classroom, one could often find him at the movie theater if he’s not busy coaching speech team or working on a stage production. Evan doesn’t post much on socials but feel free to give him a follow on Twitter @hellomrevan (he will never call it X) or on Letterboxd @evan_neil. Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 If you want to be a part of the conversation… either reach out to me via email at themegangill@gmail.com to schedule a conversation or fill out this form [https://airtable.com/appfBhngQH3gNY5LF/pagGShESknIOiuYjY/form] to share your body image story anonymously. A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * That being said, I welcome your support of my guests in the comments. Please be kind and considerate with your words. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire collective reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our society’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might be interested in being a part of the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Mallory Gonyea

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss themes surrounding body image, the beauty industry, and diet culture. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone please welcome Mallory Gonyea to Continued Conversations! Mallory and I met through The Spark Membership (shoutout Amy McNabb for bringing us together!), and I’m so grateful she was willing to sit down with me for a body image conversation. In our conversation, we discuss… * Existing at the intersection of being an artist and an athlete * Rebuilding trust with your body after an injury * How to manage when our work/sport is so closely tied to our identity, and the ability to execute our work/sport is stripped from us * Mallory’s journey growing up a tomboy and connecting to her femininity and working to appreciate her body * Because of today’s beauty standards (especially in Hollywood), Mallory grappling with the feeling like she has to choose between her career and a healthy body * Working out and lifting weights for bodily longevity and strength as we age * The implications of weight loss drugs on our whole system * Representing your body type in this art form in hopes of showing a young person out there that their body, too, is good * Mallory’s thoughts on how current female superhero roles are cast * Taking up space as women, in our lives and in our art * Helping other women see that strong is beautiful Mallory is a Nashville-based actress who recently started her own production company. She also used to be a semi-pro soccer player, so her understanding of her body and self-image runs deep. Mallory dropped so many incredible tidbits in our chat - I was blown away by her knowledge of the body, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “My grandmother, at the end of her life, she was bedridden because she did not take care of herself physically. She didn’t lift weights. She had had a stroke, and she didn’t do the rehab and the physical therapy that she needed. And I’ve seen that, and I can’t unsee that. And that’s what’s so concerning to me about this emphasis on becoming smaller as women, not just to take up less space, but it’s like we need muscle. When we’re in our thirties, we start losing muscle and collagen and all these other things that are so important, so quickly. And if we are not strength training, if we are not trying to be strong, we are gonna lose independence. I’ve seen it happen, and it takes off years of your life. And so, I’m always having to grapple with, do I have to choose between my career a healthy body. And it’s like I don’t want to do that, right? It’s like, how do we find space for both??” - Mallory Gonyea Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 4-minute and 32-second mark: Megan Gill: To call yourself an athlete, and then to have your body betray you in this way, and have something completely, like you said, out of your control happen to your body and then have to have to grapple with that is, I can only imagine…. Mallory Gonyea: Like I said, it’s something that you build your identity on, right? And it’s like, I know this about myself. I know I am strong. So when you are no longer strong, when you’re stripped of that, you’re like, okay, this thing that I found value in the thing that I found my worth in is gone. You’re like, well, how do I – where’s my value? Where’s my worth, then? I came out of the womb an athlete, very strong. If you look at my baby pictures, I had muscle definition, right? And being a woman, back when we were – I was born in ‘97, so grew up in the 2000s, right, where skinny was seen as beautiful. And it was the time where it was like, what do they call it, “heroin chic” was the in thing, right? And so, I was growing up where I’m just naturally strong, naturally a muscular woman. And I had to do a lot of learning on how to find that beautiful. And so, when that gets taken away, you’re like, well, what am I now, right? So that’s kind of been just a whole journey for me, like my whole life growing up, of grappling with finding my identity and being strong, but also still not that being the accepted thing. And so, when that is taken from you, when that is your crutch of like, well, I’m gonna lean into being a strong woman, an athletic woman, and then that’s stripped away as well, it’s just huge mind – you know? Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes. It’s like not only have you – and I don’t mean to speak for you, but I’m curious about all of the work you did with yourself mentally to accept your physical body, your athletic body as an athlete, and then to have put in all of the work to get to a place with that. But to have done all of the mental gymnastics, to get to this place of like, ah, okay, this is my body, and I am an athlete and I can play this incredible sport with my body. And then to have it, like you said, stripped away and then to have to like do mental gymnastics times two. What was that journey like for you coming out of that? Mallory Gonyea: Well, yeah, to be completely vulnerable and honest with you, I was never like this girly girl, or this, you know, little princess, and I found my identity and my worth in what my body could do, not necessarily what it looked like. So I really leaned into the tomboy-ness of it and the, well, I don’t have to look pretty if I’m a strong athlete, right? I don’t have to try to be feminine. I can just be me, and it can be focused on what I’m good at. All my teammates growing up, they loved going shopping for makeup and they loved doing all these girly things, and I just never identified with that, or I don’t think I ever felt safe to. I didn’t feel comfortable in my femininity. And honestly, I’m still on this journey. I’m still learning how to love this body that I’m in. It’s been a whole journey of never quite feeling like I fit anywhere. But if I can be really good at something and if I have something to bring to the table, well, then that’s fine. It doesn’t matter how I look. But then when you pivot into the acting industry, when you find out that that’s completely different, that the whole industry is based off of looks right, and you grow up and you see all these movies that are about athletes. Well, if you look at the ones that are about male athletes, they’re ripped. They’re very strong. They’re shredded. You look at these female athletes, they don’t match what I’m seeing in the real world, right? I always was between a size two and a six, and I still felt too big to play an athlete on screen. I didn’t see myself represented in the women who were playing athletes on screen. And I think we’ve gotten better, but we’re still a long ways away from that, right? It’s like, “Oh, well she shouldn’t be too muscular because we don’t want her to be too bulky.” Where it’s like you look at any of the women athletes in the world, they have muscle. They have to have muscle to be doing the things that they’re doing. And for some reason, Hollywood has equated thinness with being athletic, and that’s just not true. Megan Gill: Yeah. Mallory Gonyea: And so, I have found myself in a battle recently of like, okay, I’m no longer a competitive athlete, but I’m still an athlete, and I’m still constantly – even at my fittest, when I was a size two or four and really lean, I still felt like I needed to lose ten pounds. Like, “If I lose ten pounds, this will help me get cast,” or, you know, I see all these young, pretty, thin girls are the ones that are getting cast. And it’s like how am I super fit and super, you know, proud of my athleticness, but also wanting to not be that way. Megan Gill: Yeah. Mallory Gonyea: So it’s a constant battle of how do I stop myself from feeling like I need to be something other than myself. Megan Gill: Right. Gosh, because as actors, it’s so important, in my opinion, to bring ourselves to the work that we do obvi – whether you are producing, directing, acting (especially when you’re acting) because that character that’s being brought to life through you is only the way that they are because it’s you, because you are the one playing the role. And that’s the beauty of humanity. That’s the beauty of being able to act and why everybody brings something different to like the same role or the same character. Mallory Gonyea: Absolutely. Megan Gill: And if we are so disconnected from ourselves in that sense and just trying to fight who we naturally are, it’s so not beneficial. Mallory Gonyea: I would have to quite literally be malnourished to ever get to some of these sizes that we have glorified as a society, right? And I don’t want to do that. Me, personally, my grandmother, at the end of her life, she was bedridden because she did not take care of herself physically. She didn’t lift weights. She had had a stroke, and she didn’t do the rehab and the physical therapy that she needed. And I’ve seen that, and I can’t unsee that. And that’s what’s so concerning to me about this emphasis on becoming smaller as women, not just to take up less space, but it’s like we need muscle. When we’re in our thirties, we start losing muscle and collagen and all these other things that are so important, so quickly. And if we are not strength training, if we are not trying to be strong, we are gonna lose independence. I’ve seen it happen, and it takes off years of your life. And so, I’m always having to grapple with, do I have to choose between my career a healthy body. And it’s like I don’t want to do that, right? It’s like how do we find space for both? And I do think that we are getting better. We’re starting to see more stories of women of all shapes and sizes, and we’re starting to see stories of actual athletic women, which is great, but it is concerning that we still always somehow circle back to thinness and smallness. Megan Gill: Yeah, I could not agree more with all of that. And, my god, just thank you for sharing that about your grandmother as well, because I know that that’s a really hard truth to reckon with, and to watch somebody that you love and you’re close to and is a part of your family, go through that and to have the rude awakening of like, I don’t want that for myself and the people that I love, and it starts now, it starts when we’re young – yeah, yeah. There’s a lot in that. And I can also very much relate to that for myself. I move my body now because it feels good to do that. It helps me mentally. But also because I don’t want to be in my sixties and seventies and fall and hurt myself, you know? Mallory Gonyea: Right. Yeah, a lot of older people, they end up with broken hips because they don’t have that muscle, or they fall and they can’t get themselves up. A squat, right? That is that movement of sitting down and getting up, you know? Or, god forbid, having grandkids one day and not being able to pick them up. People don’t realize that is not just for aesthetics, right? Megan Gill: Right. Mallory Gonyea: It’s for being able to do the everyday things that you want to be able to do into, hopefully, your seventies and your eighties. I mean, I still want to be moving in my nineties, maybe resting a little bit more, but still wanting to be able to move, not needing to ask for help to go to the bathroom. It’s the simple things, right? Megan Gill: It’s so true. It’s like we are taught to work out to look smaller, to look thin, when in reality, we should be taught to work out for mobility purposes, for longevity, for our general health and wellness and strength. And I think that a lot of what I’ve been doing recently is literally rewiring my brain in terms of that because we were just so inundated and conditioned, especially in the heroin chic era. And I grew up in the nineties and two thousands as well, and just all of the messages we’ve received as small children, and just it takes so much to undo that. And it is really sad to see, like what you were saying, how now Hollywood, as an industry, is very small, and a lot of the women are just shrinking before our eyes. I feel like this is just a known fact at this point, unfortunately, and it just hard to see because it’s like, god, we went through – okay, the millennials and gen Z people went through this. We went through the ringer. And I would hope that like the kids growing up today would have more of a different experience. And I do think in some ways, like you were saying, they’ll have a different experience than we did in some positive ways. But at the same time, it’s like, god, now they’re watching the Oscars and seeing all these teeny, tiny actresses. We are – we’re somehow all the way back at square one. And then I’m just like fearing for the people growing up now and fearing that they’re gonna be in their twenties and thirties having to decondition themselves of all of the shit that we have to decondition ourselves of too you know? And it’s just really hard to sit with that. It’s really heartbreaking. Mallory Gonyea: You’re like, “Oh, do I need to also opt into that in order to be cast? Is that now the new standard?” And I’m like, I don’t want any part of that. Because what they don’t tell you about the drugs that everybody are taking to get that thin is that it’s not stripping you of fat, it’s stripping you of – I mean, yes it is stripping you of fat, but it’s stripping you of muscle as well. And we need muscle to function and to live. And I do believe that there is a place for those medications in a medical setting because they were designed for that. But when they become commercial and public use to – what’s the word I’m looking for – to promote and advertise thinness, it’s scary and yeah. I’m like, okay, what are we doing here? You know, even sitting in that two-to-six range. And I go back to growing up, they told Kate Winslet – stunning, beautiful, never fat – that she was fat. And I’m like what are we doing here? It’s just – yeah, it’s very concerning. “ You grow up, and you see all these movies that are about athletes. Well, if you look at the ones that are about male athletes, they’re ripped, they’re very strong, they’re shredded. You look at these female athletes, and they don’t match what I’m seeing in the real world, right? I always was between a size two and a six. I still felt too big to play an athlete on screen. I didn’t see myself represented in the women who were playing athletes on screen. And I think we’ve gotten better, but we’re still a long ways away from that, right? It’s like, “Oh, well she shouldn’t be too muscular because we don’t want her to be too bulky.” It’s like you look at any of the women athletes in the world they have muscle, they have to have muscle to be doing the things that they’re doing. And for some reason, Hollywood has equated thinness with being athletic, and that’s just not.” - Mallory Gonyea Mallory Gonyea is an award winning actress, writer, and producer based out of Nashville, Tennessee. As a former semi-pro athlete, she has built a career centered around strong, complex female characters, bringing a unique blend of physicality, emotional depth, and authenticity to her work. She is also the founder of Eden Pictures, and independent production company focused on creating bold, female centered stories. Outside of filmmaking, Mallory embraces loving her body by training in CrossFit and Boxing and is passionate about encouraging women to embrace strength, confidence, and overall wellness. Follow Mallory on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/mallorygonyea/] Check out Mallory’s IMDb [https://www.imdb.com/name/nm10574979/?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGnKUGY-LV-tmuhxwgkpd1g49_mPbYha12E2VeJvsREPbjoBxuwA5sclkqrujM_aem_sonQ-jDg2TVHlY9-1OuCyQ] Read Mallory’s Bold Journey Article [https://boldjourney.com/meet-mallory-gonyea/?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGnX0FKOQwps8m-WHgRkWLbjrFAUN1kqGfa54e3NztzlWubRHlPv5P1W9u9M4E_aem_sHa6NBRO6eMn5jsUvB2gGA] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 If you want to be a part of the conversation… either reach out to me via email at themegangill@gmail.com to schedule a conversation or fill out this form [https://airtable.com/appfBhngQH3gNY5LF/pagGShESknIOiuYjY/form] to share your body image story anonymously. A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * That being said, I welcome your support of my guests in the comments. Please be kind and considerate with your words. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire collective reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our society’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might be interested in being a part of the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Kelsey Cally

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss themes around body image and evolving bodies. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone, please welcome Kelsey Cally to Continued Conversations! Kelsey and I met in an acting class here in Los Angeles, and she’s since moved back to Chicago, which is fun since I’d spent a few years in the city myself and adore it so much. Kelsey is a stunning actor, director, teacher, and human, and she has a lot to say about body image, especially when it comes to being an actor. The way Kelsey works with her students to become present in their bodies and accept where they are right here, right now is powerful. She speaks about shifting the body narrative to one of joy and talks about the importance of representing other women who have our similar body types through our art, whether on stage or on screen. Kelsey’s story inspired me, and I hope that her thoughts and offerings inspire you too. In our conversation, we discuss… * Her earliest memories of body image were witnessing how her mother (who was a dancer) would speak about her own body and dealing with people commenting on her red hair and freckles * Shifting the mindset that your body is your own and no longer letting other people’s opinions dictate what you do with it * Sharing with others how you feel about your body might just be how we start to accept our bodies and find self-love * Working with actors on self-acceptance and shifting the narrative to joy * Representing other women who have similar body types to you onstage and on screen * Understanding that, as women, our bodies are constantly shifting due to our cycle and our hormones and educating more people (and young people) about this * Arriving to where you are, in your body and psyche, when performing * Living in your imperfections, as an artist and a human * Kelsey takes her responsibility of holding her position as a leader very seriously * Understanding the power of your example when in a position of leadership, whether that’s as a mother or as a teacher or as a director * Learning how to trust yourself in your artistry * Using wardrobe as play Kelsey does not hold her role as a leader lightly. She understands the power she holds when spearheading a project or mentoring a room of students and makes it a priority to set a good example. I’m just in awe at the way Kelsey moves about the world, as a person and an artist, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “ I work a lot on the stage. I come from the world of stage. So you aren’t necessarily watching your own work, but you are being perceived, sometimes by a room of 30, sometimes by a room of thousands, depending on what you’re doing. So there has to be a level of acceptance of being perceived as well, which goes back to what you were talking about earlier of it’s not just snap your fingers and, ‘I accept myself, and here you go.’ And maybe it’s for some people, I don’t know, if it is for you, how exciting to have ease in that. But it’s a lot of work behind the scenes, and daily work behind the scenes, and it can look different all the time. Sometimes it’s an internal conversation with self, sometimes it’s journaling, sometimes it is consuming work that inspires you because you see a reflection of yourself. A lot of my work with students is, yeah, getting them to that level of allowance and acceptance in self. And then once we get there, arriving to character is that much more free.” - Kelsey Cally Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 28-minute and 33-second mark: Kelsey Cally: Yeah, I’ll start by saying I take my position – and I even giggle as I say, a leader, because I feel as if I didn’t consciously choose this necessarily. I always say I fell into teaching. That’s what I tell people. I didn’t mean to be a teacher, but it accidentally happened, and I really love it so much. And with that, I take my responsibility of holding that position of leadership – now I’m getting emotional, my god. I take my responsibility of holding that position very seriously. Because I’m not really doing it for me. And what I mean by that is that I don’t crave control. I don’t crave, “I’m the most important person in this room. Everyone listen to me.” In fact, I reject that with my full being, and almost sometimes I have to be like, “Kelsey, you are the one holding the space for everyone, so you do kind of have to be in charge right now.” And I do when I’m in that space, I won’t make you feel like, “What am I doing?” But so your question means a lot because I very consciously make sure – let me see. I have two parts to this. I very consciously choose my words about myself when I’m using myself as an example in class, which is often, mainly because I don’t wanna reflect anything to – I don’t want anyone to feel they have to be perfect. That’s the best way I can say it. And that starts by me, how I treat myself and how I show up too. So if I’m allowing myself not to be perfect in the space, it gives others freedom not to be perfect in the space. And again, I even hate that word “perfect,” necessarily. Maybe more if I’m accepting myself, where I am that day, in the space very openly, it gives everyone else freedom to accept themselves that way in that space very openly. And that is what is most important to me in the room I am in. I love the medium of acting and the craft, and that’s what I’ve done since I was six years old. I’ve been lucky enough to do it this long, and so, that is the thing I teach. I think, though, in any lifetime, I may have been a teacher. I don’t know if it’s always been acting, but I think in some sort of way, I’ve always been a teacher. It just has fallen on me naturally. So again, I take that very seriously, the example I’m setting. And, like I said earlier, a ton of my conversation with people, especially in this medium, again, which is very physical, and we are often looking at ourselves and consuming our own work or being perceived by others, right? I work a lot on the stage. I come from the world of stage. So you aren’t necessarily watching your own work, but you are being perceived, sometimes by a room of 30, sometimes by a room of thousands, depending on what you’re doing. So there has to be a level of acceptance of being perceived as well, which goes back to what you were talking about earlier of it’s not just snap your fingers and I accept myself, and here you go. And maybe it is for some people, I don’t know. If it is for you, how exciting to have ease in that. But it’s a lot of work behind the scenes, and daily work behind the scenes, and it can look different all the time. Sometimes it’s an internal conversation with self. Sometimes it’s journaling. Sometimes it is consuming work that inspires you because you see a reflection of yourself. So a lot of my work with students is, yeah, getting them to that level of allowance and acceptance in self. And then once we get there, arriving to character, is that much more free, or sometimes it could be the opposite way. Sometimes it could be a character that is first inspiring, and then the work is allowing yourself to assume that. Yeah, I hope that answered… Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely. It’s so lovely. That was – yes, so beautiful. And there are a couple things here that are jumping out to me. First, the parallel between you setting the example for the people that you are working with and teaching and leading and directing, Ms. Leader, you’re just reminding me of the way that you, as a young person, you were looking at your mom and looking at her as the example, and not saying that one is good and one is bad at all, by any means, but that’s just really lovely parallel that’s jumping out to me. Wow, so much of it is just by example, and I even find myself in front of my friends and my people, I am now aware of how I speak about myself. Kelsey Cally: Yes. Megan Gill: And even sometimes I’m joking, and I’ll say something – I said something joking about my booty last night, and my girlfriend that’s staying with me – Chloé Godard! Kelsey Cally: Oh, Chloé! Megan Gill: You know her! She’s staying with me right now, and she was like, “Do not talk about my friend that way.” And I was like – yeah, even at this point, my friends are calling me out if I’m even saying something in a very jokingly manner. But I too try to lead by example in the spaces that I’m in, because I do think it affects people, and I do think that negativity breeds more negativity and if we can just – I also hate the word positivity, but it’s if we can just speak with more kindness about our physical vessels, then hopefully the people that are around us are either taken aback by that like, “Hmm, maybe I should try that too,” or they just inadvertently take it in, and you just never know how it could impact people. So I think that is so wonderful. Kelsey Cally: I don’t know why I just thought of this, but I’m reflecting back to a student. So for a minute, I was coaching a lot, and I still do, but there’s one pocket of time where I was coaching a lot of people for school auditions. A big age range. But this person I’m thinking of was, I believe, 16 when we started working together, and they were working towards college auditions. And also, this kind of applies to young college kids as well. Maybe you experienced this in musical theater, the “look,” right, that you have to have – this specific look when auditioning. I remember just never understanding that, really. I don’t know, when I don’t understand things, then sometimes I’m just like, “Meh, I’m not gonna do it,” me personally. But this was early on in my coaching career, and I was working with this young person, and they were reflecting back to me something they had learned from another coach or another teacher about, “When I audition, I have to wear an A-line dress and heels or whatever and their hair in a certain way. I can think back to the era of 2013, and it was a very specific style dress and… Megan Gill: Literally yes. I’m having flashbacks. Kelsey Cally: You know what I mean? I’m pretty sure you’ve talked about this before. Megan Gill: Yep. Kelsey Cally: And I remember just talking about this young person, I remember looking them dead in the eye, and I was like, “You don’t have to do that.” And they were like, “What?” And they were so young, and everything older people said was so impactful to them, which is why it is so important to understand the power your words have when you’re working in that way, or your actions have when you’re coaching, teaching, or working with people, really of any age demographic, but especially a young mind that is still developing. So I remember looking at them and being like, “Listen, you don’t – I understand someone gave you the advice of maybe what a trend is in dress for this, but do you like it? Do you like wearing it? Does it feel good in your body, or do you feel worse and more self-conscious, and it’s not – ?” I remember seeing a physical shift in them that I released them from this box that someone else had prescribed for them of you have to do this. You don’t, especially in the world of art, of self-expression, of creation, you get to decide what looks you have. You get to decide what feels good on your body, what songs you want to sing, what characters you wanna play, you know, what you say yes to, what you say no to. You design this for yourself, and I know there are a lot of things, implanting different opinions, whether it be trends you said or society or whatever it is that might be suggesting something different that can be really easy to listen to and let influence you, but you get to decide. And I know they shifted to putting on an outfit that felt more comfortable, that brought ease, right, that allowed them to showcase themselves as they were. And also they were in a place, in an age of finding themselves, too. So it felt like taking someone else’s opinion and putting something on that was not themselves. So that was a learning lesson for myself too, of just reminding myself that, if we’re going back to leadership, that within that role of leadership, you can say, “Be yourself!” and influence someone else to be themselves. “Your opinion matters the most, not mine. Even though I may be in the position of your teacher right now, or you are auditioning for a panel of directors, schools, or casting, or whatever, your opinion about yourself still matters the most.” And sometimes you have to dig through that opinion of if it really is like, “Is this opinion coming from other influences of something, or do I really feel this?” And then I’ll give you the next step, okay, yeah, this feels good. Let’s keep exploring this. Maybe this will take me to the next thing that I love. And then the next thing. And then the next thing. I think that’s the only way to move as an artist, is from self. Megan Gill: Gosh, that’s beautiful. Truly stunning way to put all of that. Oh! Yeah, because we have to learn to trust ourselves, specifically as artists. And god, there’s just so much nuance in that, in learning how to listen to yourself, how to trust yourself. It took me years. Kelsey Cally: Yeah. Megan Gill: And it’s really beautiful when it does start to happen. And when you are able to be like, “Oh, that’s what I want to wear for this audition,” because girl, yes, I was in peak music theater, jewel-toned dress. Not that I wouldn’t have worn a dress in heels or a skirt and heels, but I remember when I moved to Chicago, I finally gave myself permission to wear different things to auditions, and it just felt so – I was able to connect with my work more, and if we’re not doing that, what the hell are we doing? Kelsey Cally: And it offers to the sense of play too. I talk about this in class quite often as well. Don’t put on your body what you think someone else might like. First, start with what do you like, and then look at the character, look at the script, look at the influence of the text. Is there something in here that inspires you to go to your closet and pick out that sweater or go to your jewelry and pick out that pair of earrings? Going back to this show, I understudied this past fall, I had a whole day where I was looking through my clothes, and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, Sherry would wear this and this and this!” And that was just a personal, fun play for me. I didn’t even wear any of it in the show. We had an amazing costume designer, so that was handled, but it was more just for my own play. And I don’t know, I think of myself like, “Okay, if I were looking at everything, what would someone else, what would someone else? I dunno. I dunno.” And there is room to want to appease other people. That isn’t inherently a bad thing, but I don’t know. Just start with yourself. I think that’s the first place you have to start. “What do I like?” Megan Gill: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because then it also helps cultivate your own personal opinions, which is something that I didn’t realize until I was in my late twenties, probably. “I don’t really have – I have opinions, but I really want to refine my opinions and get to know them and understand them and lean into them across the board as a person.” And that just opened so many doors for me, as a human and as an artist, and to understand that it’s good to have opinions, and it’s good to bring that into your work and into your life. And that’s just another thing that makes us all different. And the clothes that you’re gonna pick out for the role of young mom are gonna be different than the ones I pick out for the role of young mom. And also, how fun is that to just get to play into that? Yeah. Yeah. Kelsey Cally: Yes, absolutely! Megan Gill: It’s more enjoyable. There’s more joy than thinking… Kelsey Cally: This craft is hard enough, so why would you make it any harder on yourself? Megan Gill: Yes. It’s so true! Kelsey, is there anything else that you want to chat about or bring to the conversation? Kelsey Cally: Let me think. Let me think. Megan Gill: Loaded question, I know. Kelsey Cally: Yeah, no, I just, I go back to – I talk to every – when I’m talking about this craft with students or friends or whatnot, I always talk about how your body is your tool. This is what we have: this body, whatever voice you have, is what you get to use. And each of us has vastly different access to our tools, and the work is understanding that access, too, of what it can do, how I can use it, and what that work is connecting, moving. If I had advice for someone who’s like, I dunno, either is already an actor, is wanting to be an actor: know your body, hug your body, move your body, love your body, understand your body. Your voice is included in that as well. But do things that bring joy for the body. I was talking about dance earlier. There could have been a world where I made that my profession, and I thought – and I probably, because I saw what my mom dealt with in her career, maybe that influenced me not to make it my profession, because it is really difficult. But I remember there was a time where I was like, “I’m doing this for fun because it feels good, because every time I dance, I’m happy. I feel energetic, I feel buzzy in my body. My brain is probably doing, you know, some amazing chemical things that are making me feel elated. So therefore, I’m going to keep doing it. There could be a world where I look at myself, and I say, “That isn’t perfect,” or “I’m not moving that,” or “My body should shift in that way.” And in that way, I lose the joy of what the thing is in the first place. o move your body, relate to your body in ways that bring you joy, truly. Yeah. And I think, therefore, you deepen your understanding of your tool and can use it more efficiently in your craft and in your play and in your expression. Megan Gill: Oh, it’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful because it’s so true, because we’re each so different that my tools are gonna be – maybe we have some crossover, but they’re gonna be overall different from your tools, from her tools, from her tools. And it’s if that isn’t the beautiful thing about the world and us being each individual people, then what are we doing here? We’re just clones. How boring. “I love smiling at people. That’s the best way I can say it. I love looking people in the eye and giving them a smile. And I’ll add to this: I love my arms that embrace and hold people tight like this, and I can give them a big squeeze. And I think those three things in tandem are my favorite thing about my body.” - Kelsey Cally Kelsey Cally is a Chicago-based actor, teacher, and director. Kelsey is founder and owner of Fifth Wall Artistry, where she works with actors from all over the world on deepening their craft. She holds an MFA in Acting from UC Irvine and a BA in Theatre Performance with a minor in Dance from Western Michigan University. Kelsey records a weekly Kids Radio Hour as a volunteer for Vocal Point Georgia Radio, where she shares her love of storytelling with young listeners. She was recently in Factory Theatres’ production of The Sporting Life and Remy Bumppo Theatre Company’s production of Hedda Gabler. She is committed to thoughtful, dynamic work onstage and in the classroom. Follow Kelsey on Instagram [http://www.instagram.com/kelsmcally] Work with Kelsey and Fifth Wall Artistry! [http://www.instagram.com/fifthwallartistry] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 If you want to be a part of the conversation… either reach out to me via email at themegangill@gmail.com to schedule a conversation or fill out this form [https://airtable.com/appfBhngQH3gNY5LF/pagGShESknIOiuYjY/form] to share your body image story anonymously. A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * That being said, I welcome your support of my guests in the comments. Please be kind and considerate with your words. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire collective reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our society’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might be interested in being a part of the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Brittany Brown

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss the impacts of the modeling industry and other themes around the beauty industry and diet culture. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone, please welcome Brittany Brown to Continued Conversations! Brittany and I met through a shared acting community in Los Angeles back in 2019. I knew she was a phenomenal actor, and I also knew she had experience in the modeling industry, so when I started this project, she was on my list of people I wanted to have a conversation with. But it took Brittany sharing a bit more about her experience on “America’s Next Top Model,” once the documentary had been aired, for me to reach out and ask if she’d be open to talking body image with me in this space. And I’m so thankful she was because our conversation was powerful. In our conversation, we discuss… * Brittany’s journey to finding Reiki for her own healing and now starting her own Reiki practice to help others * Giving yourself permission to slow down and rest * As a kid, learning your body is being perceived by others * The intersection of a cut-throat modeling industry and the desire to be a soft and creative artist * Her experience on “America’s Next Top Model” leading her to want to step away from modeling, so she could return to the industry on her own terms * The importance of safe, supportive representation * Truly embracing you, who you are, and your body * Re-teaching our bodies safety after traumatic experiences * Finding freedom in acting * It’s our responsibility to protect our bodies Brittany is truly an incredible light of a woman. She shared so much wisdom in the 45 minutes that we spoke together, and I’m so grateful to her for joining me in discussing parts of her story she hadn’t spoken about in a while. I’m hopeful that anyone who’s gone through something similar to Brittany hears her words and feels seen and validated in her generous vulnerability. In the Instagram post she shared that pulled me to finally reach out to her she shares: “If this documentary sparks conversations about care, consent, and humanity within creative industries, I hope it also makes room for stories of resilience and moving forward.“ So, thank you, Brittany, for opening up in this space with me. And to everyone here reading, get ready for a moving conversation - I cannot wait for you to listen in! “ I know it sounds cheesy too, but even I just tell people, I’m like you really have to embrace you because things are constantly gonna be changing. And if you’re always like, “Well, now I’ve gotta lose 10 pounds,” or “Now I gotta stuff my bra,” I don’t know, just to fit something, if you’re chasing that, it’s never gonna feel aligned. Because trust me, I love throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and then doing a photo shoot. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s when you feel good, it’s empowering. It’s just when I think maybe it’s giving your power away or how the biggest part for me is learning to not abandon myself in these moments, because no amount of external validation will ever be enough, or it has to come from inside, and people say that, but until you really live it and feel it, I’m like, whew, yeah, that’s very true.” - Brittany Brown Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 10-minute and 54-second mark: Brittany Brown: So I feel lucky in the sense of, when I was a kid, I just wanted to play. And I think when you’re around, I don’t know, sixth grade, I remember a boy on the playground just being like, “Where are your boobs?” And I was like, “I don’t know. They’re just not in yet.” This is so silly. I used to wish, on my birthday, “I wish my boobs would grow.” And then, like I said, being that late bloomer – well, and again, other people just always point out, “You’re so tall,” or “You’re so this,” and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s just my body.” And then I think when I – it was after high school when my body just shifted, and I was like, “Ooh, this is, this is different.” And then that was the time when I went on America’s Next Top Model, and then I’m being told, you know, “Oof, this still doesn’t really quite work. We don’t know where to put you.” And then I’m like, oh, now you’re being evaluated in that sense. And I started to kind of feel like I didn’t have autonomy over my own being, because I was like, “Oh, I’m finally –.” Here we go. I don’t know why this is making me emotional now. You go from being awkward to then feeling good to then still not being enough. And it really messed with me for a long time of just, “Ugh, well, what is my body type? Am I just… I’m not quite tall/skinny enough to be a runway model. I’m not volumptuous. And I just kinda went from caring a lot to kind of just shutting down. Megan Gill: And like disconnecting from – or what do you mean shutting down? Brittany Brown: Especially around the timing of me doing that show was just – I was 18, almost 19. And I was so excited because I was like, “I want to just go, and I want to play, and I love being creative and doing photo shoots”. And then it just so quickly became something that wasn’t really fun. And I know people are like, “It’s a tough – it’s a brutal industry. You need to have thick skin.” And I’m like, I am so soft and so tender. I am one of the most – and for a long time, I would get frustrated like, “Brittany, don’t cry, stop crying!” or, “Don’t be so affected.” And I just had to like really accept myself like, “You’ve always been sensitive, and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing.” So the shutdown thing was just – Megan Gill: That’s your superpower! Brittany Brown: Yeah, I think I’m more – well, I wanted nothing to do with the modeling industry. Megan Gill: After that experience? Brittany Brown: I was just – I came home, and I was just still processing. And other people are like, “Ah!!!” And I’m like, “Huh?” Megan Gill: Yeah. Brittany Brown: It took time. And then I was like if I do this, I want it to be on my terms. I want to find an agency where I feel protected and safe and not constantly just evaluated or… Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely, and supported. Brittany Brown: Yeah! Megan Gill: Because you’re right, the industry is brutal, and I don’t even know the half of it, but I can only imagine that coming off of that show and having people that don’t know what you went through be like, “Oh, my gosh, this is so exciting!” And you’re having to still sit with and process and deal with everything that you had experienced and how your relationship to your body, the work itself, what you once thought was going to be this – what was this fun, enjoyable thing for you has now been tainted. I am just hurting for 19-year-old you who, you’re still a kid in a sense. It’s a lot to process and sit with and manage. Brittany Brown: Yeah, and, I mean, I’m grateful in hindsight because some of the women that I was able to meet through that, that was one of the best parts - connecting in this kind of weird process. And some people could argue like, “Well, you signed up for the show. You went on.” And I’m like, yes, I did sign up for the show, but I didn’t sign up for other manipulation or other things that kind of took place, and I was the one who had to come home and then live my life and do the work on healing from that. So it’s a journey. Megan Gill: Yeah, and it’s also hard for people to say that. Well, yes, but also you would hope – one would hope that going on a show like that would not have been such a difficult experience to go through. You would hope that it would – the pros would outweigh the cons in it to an extent. And I don’t mean to speak for you and say the cons outweighed the pros, but it’s like – I don’t know. I don’t know. Brittany Brown: Yeah. No, I know what you mean because I remember I got home, and I was in Arizona, and I think an agency wanted to meet with me, and I was very much just like, “I don’t want to do that.” I was just like, “Mm, mm-mm.” And I think I waited almost a year. I did end up being signed, and I was like, “Oh, this is okay.” I moved to LA shortly after that as well, but I remember just being like – also, I was like I like acting way better because I feel like in modeling it’s so much about how you look, which is also frustrating because – I don’t hate modeling. I love being creative and moving your body, and I just – I hate the bad rap that it’s gotten, but it’s gotten that for a reason, you know? Megan Gill: Yeah, it is unfortunate. And, okay, a couple things here, because I do want to talk more about your journey into acting and kind of how that evolved your story and your relationship to your self-image. But I’m also thinking it’s so tough in our society today, where ten years ago, we were having this like body positivity movement, and we were getting all different shapes and sizes of bodies in our media. And now it’s – god, I saw something this morning about I don’t know, just the, the way that our society is now leaning back towards like everyone is very, very small. Brittany Brown: Yeah. It does. It becomes things are more in or trendy. Megan Gill: That’s like a testament to – that made me think when you were it’s not that you don’t like modeling, or that you like dislike the modeling industry or like the creative act of modeling, but it’s hard when the confines of it are being manipulated by brands and by trends. And it’s so hard to keep up and feel… yeah. I’m rambling. Brittany Brown: Yeah. It’s almost like – no, you’re not. I know it sounds cheesy too, but even I just tell people, I’m like you really have to embrace you because things are constantly gonna be changing. And if you’re always like, “Well, now I’ve gotta lose 10 pounds,” or “Now I gotta stuff my bra,” I don’t know, just to fit something, if you’re chasing that, it’s never gonna feel aligned. Because trust me, I love throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and then doing a photo shoot. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s when you feel good, it’s empowering. It’s just when I think maybe it’s giving your power away or how the biggest part for me is learning to not abandon myself in these moments, because no amount of external validation will ever be enough, or it has to come from inside, and people say that, but until you really live it and feel it, I’m like, whew, yeah, that’s very true. Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And it just reminds me of it being in partnership too or being in friendship, being in relationship with others, it’s like no other person can validate you as much as you can yourself. If you are not accepting of yourself and showing yourself that love and care and kindness and compassion, no one else can do it for you. It’s a similar concept, you know? Brittany Brown: Oh, it’s still hard though. I remember I did a student film through I think UCLA, I don’t know, ten years ago, and they did a little screening of it, and I just remember I was sitting next to my sister, and I was like – I couldn’t even watch myself. I was just like – all I saw was my flaws. I was like, “Oh my gosh, Brittany, you look like Grumpy Cat when you’re on screen. This is terrible.” And my sister was just like, “What are you talking about?” And I couldn’t even look at it as art or telling a story because I was so hyper-focused on picking apart my appearance. It’s just mind-blowing. And then that also sucked because I love theater. I love moving my body. I love being quirky. And it’s a very weird experience when you go from that to, “Oh my gosh, but how am I being perceived?” And that was, I think, the trauma from America’s Next Top Model that kind of just like, whew! And then I went, “Oh, that’s the lens I’m looking at. But no one’s out to get me or make me look bad anymore, so why? Whew. Let’s let that go so we can just feel free.” Megan Gill: Yeah, to be embodied in the play and in the joy and in the expression of the art form, whether it is modeling now or acting on camera or on stage. But you’re right, that is so so hard, and it’s so hard to teach our bodies that they are safe in those moments when you’ve experienced something that led you to feel unsafe in the expression or thereafter. I mean, it took me years to feel comfortable enough in my body as an actor, way too long. Brittany Brown: Yeah. Megan Gill: It’s nuts to think that my whole college career, I was just so focused on how I was being perceived in my body that I didn’t even dive into the art form of it all. It’s wild! I’m like, wow. I could have been learning so much more, but instead my brain space was just taken up and all consumed by the way I looked. Brittany Brown: And I am curious, for you, if you kind of feel the same way of being – do you – with modeling and acting, because you do both, do you feel more of a sense of freedom in acting, or how do you kind of…? Megan Gill: Now, yes, because I think that I’ve been acting for so long, and I feel like I have grown in such a lovely way with my acting to this place where it’s so much easier for me to be embodied and be in story and not worry about what anyone’s thinking about me. But when it comes to modeling, it’s like I really don’t know what I’m doing. Technically speaking, there are things that I’m like – so a lot of times, I’m faking it till I’m making in that realm. Not with fit modeling, but if I have um an e-comm casting or something, I’m like, “Ha!” I do not excel in this area. So I’m just showing up and, ultimately, this is me. If you like my look enough – like you said, unfortunately, so much of it is about look. “If you like me enough, then you’ll work with whatever weird thing my hands are doing,” you know? Brittany Brown: Yeah. Megan Gill: Yeah, I feel a lot more freedom in my acting, but I think it’s also because what I’ve come to learn – and I’m curious to know if you feel similarly – is that more goes in acting. More things pass. The human nuance when you’re acting and when movement is involved and it’s not just – not that all modeling is still photography, but I don’t know, it’s just more things I feel like can be included. And maybe this is a lesson in more things could be included in the modeling realm too, but… yeah. Yeah, I feel just like freedom. Brittany Brown: Yeah, I remember too the freedom that I felt for some reason of it doesn’t matter how your hair looks right now, it doesn’t matter if you have a triple chin when you’re thinking or angry. It doesn’t matter when you’re onstage or you’re doing something, you know, it just, to me, felt like, “Oh my gosh!” I get that way, especially with live auditions. If I can feel that level of freedom, it just feels like permission to just be. Yeah, I feel like you don’t really have that when you’re modeling, but maybe that’s just I just could never get there with it. Megan Gill: I mean, even still, if I do a photoshoot now, and even if it’s just for me, it’s like there is an added level of pressure, and maybe because in my head it’s not “storytelling” in the way that if I’m creating a short film or something, acting in a short film. That is like, “Okay, gotta give it up because story, story. That’s what matters. That’s what matters.” But it’s like, “Yeah, I’m just doing a photoshoot for myself!” So then all of a sudden the pressure’s on, and I’m like, “Oh, god. Everything has to be perfect.” But it’s like, no! We’re humans. We’re not perfect. And it’s okay if – god, it really took me a long time to get to this place of I just took headshots recently, and my belly button was showing in some of the photos, and I’m like do I still have – parts of me still have like feelings about that like, “Ugh, god, ugly.” But then I just do the work to be like, “No. That? No. We have done so much work to accept our belly. No! She deserves to make her freaking appearance. She deserves to be here!” Brittany Brown: Yeah. Megan Gill: So there’s always going to be that, “Ugh,” you know? Brittany Brown: Oh, yeah. Megan Gill: Like how you said when you were watching yourself in the film, but it’s like hopefully we can do enough work, consistent work, because it’s never-fucking-ending to get to a place where we can have those thoughts, but then be like, “Okay, let’s hold our own hand and be like, “But… It’s okay! You are still good, and you are still talented and incredible and wonderful.” Brittany Brown: Yeah. Oh, yeah, you just brought me back. Now, I love being tender, and I love people with opinions, and I’m just like, “Ah! Great!” I remember when I got home from the show, and I had looked up an ANTM fandom website where someone had edited pictures of my face, of what they thought would make my face a better face. And I was just like – that hurt at the time. And then now I’m like who cares? People are always gonna have this opinion, and if I sat and looked and read everything, oh my gosh, that would be terrible. So why even go there? Yeah. Megan Gill: Right, it’s almost like we get to hand that back to those people. Like, if you feel like you need to say something like that about somebody else’s body, then that’s something that you have to sit with. I think it’s hard to have that realization that that’s theirs to carry, not ours to take on, because it’s, in this case, literally about your body. So it’s really difficult to be able to separate it. But that’s really cool to hear that you have come this far to be able to be like, “That’s on you, man.” Brittany Brown: Yeah, or I just don’t even want to look. I don’t even look any… yeah. Megan Gill: Yeah, because it doesn’t matter. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Ooh, I’m curious to know – and maybe we’ve touched on some of this, so forgive me if it’s kind of a repeat, but I’m curious to know how your relationship with your body today is different than it was ten years ago, which I know we’ve kind of talked about. But, I don’t know! If there’s anything else that’s coming up for you when it comes to that? Brittany Brown: So that inner fun child is definitely still here because I want work to always feel like play and freedom, right? If we’re like, “Ahh!” But some of the tender topics, I think, are still there a little bit. But I am 32 now. You know, I’m not 22. So the need to seek out the validation isn’t really there anymore, which feels like responsibility, actually, because then it’s like, okay, then let’s tend to our body. That is even why I do this work now is because I want to show my body love, safety. It’s my responsibility to protect her. So it feels like strength, but that comes from a very tender place. Megan Gill: That’s really powerful and lovely and very, very eloquently put. “I feel like [my favorite thing about my body] changes too, but I’m gonna say my hands, I feel like I don’t give them enough credit. They hold things. There’s something so cool and kind of mystical about the hands.” - Brittany Brown Brittany is an actress currently based in Arizona, with a deep love for theatre and storytelling that has been a part of her life for as long as she can remember. She has also worked as a model, an experience that shaped her understanding of self-expression, confidence, and the complexity of being seen. Recently, she has been exploring energy work, holding space for others to reconnect with themselves and their own healing. She is passionate about the intersection of creativity, authenticity, and personal growth, and how those elements come together to shape who we are. Follow Brittany on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/brittbrownmeow/] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * In light of this, please feel free to support the guests of this Substack Series in the comments. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might want to join in the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]