How Songs Make Money

1.9 – Interview with Christopher Fox (new music composer; writer)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds. This week's episode offers an interview with Christopher Fox, a composer of new music, as well as a music scholar and writer. Christopher’s work has been performed and broadcast world-wide and has featured in many leading new music festivals, from the Amsterdam PROMS to the BBC Proms and from St Petersburg to Sydney. His work has been informed by close collaborations with a number of performers, including the soprano Elizabeth Hilliard, the pianist John Snijders, and the Apartment House and EXAUDI ensembles. His work is also the subject of the 2016 edited collection, published by Routledge, titled Perspectives on the Music of Christopher Fox: Straight Lines in Broken Times. His writings on new music have also been published widely, in the journals Contact, Contemporary Music Review, Musical Times, TEMPO (which he has edited since 2015) and The Guardian. He has also held academic posts including Professor in Composition, Professor of Music at Brunel University London, and he is also Honorary Professor at the University of York. In our conversation me and Christopher covered a wide range of topics including the position of composition within University music departments, the possibility of earning a living from new music composition, how new works are commissioned, and copyright registration as it relates to works that are improvised, unfixed, or otherwise difficult to classify. -- References and further reading Doss, Rose (ed.) 2016. Perspectives on the Music of Christopher Fox: Straight Lines in Broken Times. Routledge.   Audio excerpts Excerpt from ‘Free Diver’ (Fox). Performed by Kathryn Williams. Available on the album Dissenting Voices (Hat Hut Records). ℗ 2025 Christopher Fox and Kathryn Williams. © 2024 Christopher Fox.  Used for purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. -- All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice. How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.8 – Student episode: Rossella Pia Scotti on Taylor Swift's masters

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.   This week's episode is produced by Rose Pia Scotti, a member of the 2024/25 cohort on our Music Management MA course. Rose’s episode tells the story of Taylor Swift’s masters dispute, unpacking key terminology, introducing us to key individuals and companies involved, and drawing on various sources to give us a sense of the cultural and social impact of this case. This episode was recorded in May 2025.   Music excerpts are used only for the purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.   -- All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice. How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.7 – Interview with Tony Orchudesch (founder, Torchlight Music)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.   This week's episode offers an interview with Tony Orchudesch, founder of Torchlight Music. Torchlight works with advertising agencies, broadcasters and producers to clear content for all forms of broadcast, and also has a roster of composers and arrangers, creating original music content and cover recordings for the media. In our interview we discuss the role of covers, re-recordings, and style-alikes in music for advertising, the process of identifying composition and master rights holders for existing recordings and compositions, and the power relations that shape negotiations between advertising agencies and music rightsholders.   -- Glossary Reversionary rights – Rights that allow creators of musical works to regain ownership of relevant copyrights. The existence of these rights varies internationally. Chain of title – In music, the sequential ownership history of a given composition or other intellectual property. Most favoured nation clause – A contract provision ensuring that the relevant party receives equal (or better) terms as other parties. Demo recording – In this context, a preliminary recording to share with a client as an indication of the style and quality of the intended work, somewhat distinct from the ‘home demo’ that producers and songwriters might create as a first recording of a composition. Sound-alike and style-alike – Similar sounding terms with somewhat distinct meanings. Sound-alikes are new compositions intended to sound very similar to a specific existing composition; style-alikes are new compositions intended to more generally evoke the style of an existing composition, generally allowing for more melodic and lyrical variation.     -- References and further reading   Hahn, M., & Hwang, I. (1999). Effects of tempo and familiarity of background music on message processing in TV advertising: A resource‐matching perspective. Psychology & Marketing, 16(8), 659-675. Hee Park, H., Kwan Park, J., & Ok Jeon, J. (2014). Attributes of background music and consumers’ responses to TV commercials: The moderating effect of consumer involvement. International Journal of Advertising, 33(4), 767-784. Meier, L. M. (2017). Popular music as promotion: Music and branding in the digital age. John Wiley & Sons. Klein, B. (2016). As heard on TV: Popular music in advertising. Routledge.   Audio excerpts Excerpt from work commissioned by Torchlight Music Ltd for a European client. This work is used here for purposes of criticism and review under the ‘fair dealing’ exception of UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Not for commercial re-use.   -- All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice. How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.6 - Student episode: William Gerrard on sampling, copyright, and society

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds. This week's episode is produced by William Gerrard, a member of the 2024/25 cohort on our Music Management MA course. William’s episode explores the relationship between copyright law and sample-based music. He tells us about the emergence of sample-based genres like hip-hop in the 1970s, identifies the copyright laws involved in clearing samples for use in new recordings, and also considers the social and racial dimensions of how copyright law is used to police particular forms of creative expression. As the episode progresses, William works up from a situated history of sampling to a broader consideration of the philosophical assumptions that underpin different approaches to copyright. -- All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice. How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.

1.5 – Interview with Lily Blakeney-Edwards (Client Manager, Sentric)

How Songs Make Money is a podcast series about music rights and the income streams associated with songwriting and composition, hosted by Dr Ellis Jones, Lecturer in Music and Management at the University of Leeds.   This week's episode offers an interview with Lily Blakeney-Edwards. Lily is Client Manager at Sentric Music, a music publisher which represents over 400,000 artists across the world. In this role Lily has worked with a range of emerging talent and established artists, and within the past year alone she has worked with Sound City, Jazz North and The Great Escape, and given talks at The University of Leeds, and Leeds Beckett University. In our interview we discussed what makes Sentric distinctive, Sentric’s approach to artist development, and the day to day rewards and challenges of Lily’s client-facing role.   -- Glossary   Sync brief/sync pitch – A sync brief is call-out from a media production company (i.e. TV, film, games media) requesting submissions to might a specific, identified media usage; a sync pitch is an artist’s submission to be considered for a specific sync opportunity. Bookers – Booking agents, who liaise between artists (or artist management) and concert promoters to secure live music engagements, and who may also have a strategic role in planning an artist’s longer-term live performance plans. Industry conference/event – Events primarily created for and attended by music industry professionals, which might combine talks and workshops with live music ‘showcase’ performances and networking opportunities. Examples include Manchester’s The Unconference and Brighton’s Great Escape, which both take place annually. Music supervisor – In film and television, the music supervisor is responsible for identifying and selecting appropriate music for the media in question (often in collaboration with the producer and other team members).   -- References and further reading Hesmondhalgh, D., Campos Valverde, R., Kaye, D. B. V., & Li, Z. (2023). Digital platforms and infrastructure in the realm of culture. Media and Communication, 11(2), 296-306. Morris, J. W. (2020). Music platforms and the optimization of culture. Social Media + Society, 6(3),. Poell, T., Nieborg, D. B., & Duffy, B. E. (2021). Platforms and cultural production. John Wiley & Sons. Prey, R. (2020). Locating power in platformization: Music streaming playlists and curatorial power. Social media + society, 6(2).   -- All views expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent the views of the University of Leeds, the School of Music, or any other organisation. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as business or legal advice. How Songs Make Money is created and assembled by Ellis Jones, with contributions from students on the University of Leeds, Music Management MA course. This series is edited by Nikolai Klimanski. Our theme music is also written and produced by Nik Klimanski, and is included with permission. This series of How Songs Make Money is supported by ‘Research Boost’ funding from the Leeds Arts and Humanities Research Institute, and enabled by Digital Education Service’s Podcasting Pilot. Special thanks to Sam Wyman for their support, as well as to Angela Hulme, Mia Windsor, Liev Cherry, and Michelle Schneider.