Shame Is Almost Always an Attachment Wound

What If Your Therapist Doesn’t Know They’re “Unsafe”?

In this powerful conversation, Janina Fisher is joined by therapists, educators, and longtime collaborators Debra Chatman-Finley and Gliceria Pérez to explore the intersection of trauma, race, identity, and clinical practice. Reflecting on a collaboration that began during the upheaval of 2020, the three discuss how experiences of racism, discrimination, and systemic inequity create ongoing conditions of threat that can profoundly shape the nervous system. Drawing parallels between chronic childhood trauma and the hypervigilance many Black and Brown individuals navigate every day, they examine how trauma is often rooted not only in discrete events but in environments where safety can never be assumed. Together, they explore implicit bias in psychotherapy, the importance of therapists doing their own self-reflective work, and the ways race and culture are always present in the therapy room—even when they go unspoken. With honesty, warmth, and mutual respect, this conversation offers an invitation to move beyond good intentions toward deeper awareness, curiosity, and genuine connection. Whether you're a clinician, student, or someone seeking to better understand the impact of race on lived experience, this episode offers valuable insights into what it means to create safety, build trust, and engage in meaningful conversations across difference. Key Takeaways 1. Trauma can be an ongoing condition, not just a single event 2. Living under chronic threat changes the nervous system 3. Implicit bias affects every therapist 4. "Doing the work" starts with self-reflection 5. Race is always in the room 6. Safety cannot be assumed 7. Curiosity matters more than perfection 8. Honest conversations create connection About the Guests Debra Chatman-Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ, and a former Adjunct Professor at New York University, where she taught Racial and Social Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. She previously served as Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency and is a graduate and former Associate Faculty of The Multicultural Family Institute. Trained in EMDR, Brainspotting, and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST), with a Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute, Debra has devoted her practice to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma—particularly on African American women and their parenting. She co-facilitates a monthly BIPOC Safety, Belonging and Dignity Gathering for The Academy of Therapy Wisdom, provides clinical consultation for BIPOC clinicians, and has led numerous workshops on racism, dissociation, implicit bias, and racial trauma in clinical practice. Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual/bicultural therapist in private practice in New Jersey, working passionately with BIPOC and other marginalized communities from a social justice perspective. She is trained in EMDR, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy (Levels One and Two), and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST), completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at the Justice Resource Institute, and is currently pursuing Brainspotting certification. A former Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program and Adjunct Faculty at NYU's Silver School of Social Work, Gliceria currently runs two support groups for Women of Color, co-facilitates the monthly BIPOC Safety, Belonging, and Dignity Gathering for the Academy of Therapy Wisdom, and co-leads the Awesome Clinicians of Color Book Club. Together, Debra and Gliceria are developing a podcast and writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color. Janina's Links Website: https://janinafisher.com/ [https://janinafisher.com/] Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjaninafisher/?hl=en-gb [https://www.instagram.com/drjaninafisher/?hl=en-gb] New book: https://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Our-Fragmented-Selves-Therapists/dp/1683738918 [https://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Our-Fragmented-Selves-Therapists/dp/1683738918]

What If Calm Feels Worse Than Crisis?

In this candid and thought-provoking episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with somatic therapist, educator, and founder of The Embody Lab, Dr. Scott Lyons, for a wide-ranging conversation about trauma, embodiment, and what it means to be fully alive. Together, they reflect on the personal experiences that shaped their paths into trauma work, exploring how helping others can sometimes begin as a survival strategy of its own. Along the way, they unpack the nuanced differences between trauma and difficult life experiences, discuss the impact of growing up with dysregulated caregivers, and examine how our nervous systems learn to adapt in order to survive. Janina and Scott also trace the evolution of somatic trauma therapy—from the early days when body-based approaches were often dismissed to the growing recognition that healing must involve more than insight alone. They explore why no single method can address the complexity of trauma, the importance of meeting each person as an individual rather than applying a formula, and how collaboration across disciplines is shaping the future of trauma treatment. Blending humor, personal stories, and decades of clinical wisdom, this episode is a powerful reminder that healing is not about becoming someone new—it is about reconnecting with the parts of ourselves that had to be hidden in order to survive. Dr. Scott Lyons is an international keynote speaker, serial entrepreneur, licensed Clinical Psychologist, and Doctor of Osteopathy (Spain). He is the Founder and CEO of The Embody Lab, the world’s largest online learning platform for body-based trauma therapies, reaching more than two million practitioners across 30+ countries. A recognized innovator in transformative wellness, Dr. Lyons is the creator of Somatic Stress ReleaseTM, founder of Primal Reset Supplements, and architect of more than 40 advanced professional trainings spanning trauma therapy, embodied leadership, integrative health, and human performance. His work integrates neuroscience, somatics, and executive development — earning him recognition from Oprah Daily as “The Beyoncé of Trauma Therapy.” Beyond his clinical and educational leadership, Dr. Lyons serves as an executive coach and wellness consultant to founders, CEOs, and high-level leaders, bringing a rare blend of psychological depth, physiological precision, and strategic vision. He is the bestselling author of Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and Others and host of The Gently Used Human and Hot Seat Therapy, his YouTube series exploring transformation in real time. https://www.drscottlyons.com/ [https://www.drscottlyons.com/] https://theembodylab.com/ [https://theembodylab.com/] Book:  Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and Others [https://www.drscottlyons.com/addicted-to-drama-book#buy-the-book] Key Takeaways 1. Trauma and adversity are not always the same thing 2. Many helping professionals are drawn to healing through their own survival adaptations 3. Somatics is about more than trauma 4. There is no single "right" trauma therapy 5. Trauma often involves adapting away from our authentic selves 6. The future of trauma treatment is collaboration 7. Accessibility matters 8. Healing begins when we are met as we truly are

Your Left Brain Says You're Fine. Your Right Brain Knows You're Not.

In this fascinating episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina Fisher sits down with psychiatrist and neuroscientist Fredric Schiffer to explore a provocative question: can trauma be understood as a dialogue between two distinct “minds” within the same brain? Drawing from decades of clinical work and neuroscience research, Schiffer shares how his pioneering “dual-brain psychology” emerged from split-brain studies and his observations that trauma survivors often seem to shift between profoundly different states of self. Together, he and Janina examine how one hemisphere may carry the emotional imprint of trauma while the other holds a more grounded, resilient perspective—offering a compelling framework for understanding internal conflict, fear, and healing. Their conversation bridges neuroscience and psychotherapy, touching on the lasting effects of traumatic memory, why insight alone often cannot override fear, and how healing may happen when the healthier parts of the self can connect compassionately with the wounded parts. This episode offers a rich exploration of the brain’s adaptability and the deeply relational process of trauma recovery. * Trauma can create sharply different self-states * The two hemispheres of the brain may process emotional experience differently * Healing is not just cognitive—it is experiential * A healthier part of the self can support the traumatized part  * Neuroscience can validate lived experience. Dr. Schiffer is an assistant professor of psychiatry, part-time, at Harvard Medical School and research associate at McLean Hospital. He has developed a theory of psychology that is the subject of his recent book Goodbye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, & PTSD: The Life-Changing Science of Dual Brain Psychology. The theory has been studied extensively at Harvard and its clinical applications have been articulated in multiple peer-reviewed publications. Dr. Schiffer is also the Founder and CEO of MindLight, LLC which has received 2 SBIR grants from the US National Institute on Drug Abuse that were give an FDA Breakthrough Designation for the treatment of opioid addiction. He has a private practice of psychiatry in Newton, Massachusetts, USA https://dualbrainpsychology.com/ Books: Of Two Minds https://www.amazon.com/Two-Minds-Revolutionary-Dual-Brain-Psychology-ebook/dp/B001PO6CMK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=211HASIEUKUKI&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xV8hnS3a19gKRei-jFVGJsij5GooeoQMnr847BIMRGCj6DDirhPGo1B_Rp4M6JEPkUxU_edZMfoRYxjd8rXXVI1HRnvgRfTFc5EylUFxyC-vf5KnteegxS6T4Xn1-seSKtksvSw7Q85UZ8xCzRGN2g.lTn1SDp4auJQ9Zp_6aXZHyoG8ih8BTx40F6Yc__LWjk&dib_tag=se&keywords=frederic+Schiffer&qid=1778621398&sprefix=frederic+schiffer%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1 [https://www.amazon.com/Two-Minds-Revolutionary-Dual-Brain-Psychology-ebook/dp/B001PO6CMK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=211HASIEUKUKI&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xV8hnS3a19gKRei-jFVGJsij5GooeoQMnr847BIMRGCj6DDirhPGo1B_Rp4M6JEPkUxU_edZMfoRYxjd8rXXVI1HRnvgRfTFc5EylUFxyC-vf5KnteegxS6T4Xn1-seSKtksvSw7Q85UZ8xCzRGN2g.lTn1SDp4auJQ9Zp_6aXZHyoG8ih8BTx40F6Yc__LWjk&dib_tag=se&keywords=frederic+Schiffer&qid=1778621398&sprefix=frederic+schiffer%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1] Good-Bye Anxiety, Depression, [https://dualbrainpsychology.com/good-bye-anxiety-depression-addiction-ptsd-the-life-changing-science-of-dual-brain-psychology]Addiction, and PTSD [https://dualbrainpsychology.com/good-bye-anxiety-depression-addiction-ptsd-the-life-changing-science-of-dual-brain-psychology] https://dualbrainpsychology.com/good-bye-anxiety-depression-addiction-ptsd-the-life-changing-science-of-dual-brain-psychology [https://dualbrainpsychology.com/good-bye-anxiety-depression-addiction-ptsd-the-life-changing-science-of-dual-brain-psychology] Dr. Schiffer’s Papers: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1aJk1vEbT1cMpcGF1sBgftrIoNwwDNvLT [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1aJk1vEbT1cMpcGF1sBgftrIoNwwDNvLT]

Healing the World, Healing Ourselves

In this timely and thought-provoking conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with somatic therapist, activist, author, and social change leader Staci Haines to explore the profound relationship between personal healing and collective transformation. Drawing on more than three decades of work at the intersection of trauma recovery and social justice, Staci challenges the idea that trauma exists only within individuals. Instead, she invites us to consider how systems of oppression, violence, inequality, and disconnection shape both our nervous systems and our societies—and why healing must address both. Together, Janina and Staci discuss what it means to pursue healing in a world that often feels unsafe, how trauma lives not only in events but in environments, and why resilience grows through connection, community, and shared purpose. They reflect on the emotional toll of living in turbulent times, the importance of finding beauty and “micro-joys” amid uncertainty, and the role of embodied healing in helping us stay engaged rather than overwhelmed. From childhood trauma and social movements to climate anxiety, community care, and intergenerational hope, this conversation offers a powerful vision of healing that extends beyond the therapy room and into the broader world we are creating together. Whether you're a clinician, activist, or someone trying to navigate these challenging times with greater courage and compassion, this episode offers inspiration, perspective, and a reminder that healing and social change are deeply connected. * Trauma is not only about what happens to us—it is also about the environments and systems we live within * Personal healing and social change are not separate endeavors * Systems built on “power over” relationships often create the conditions for trauma, oppression, and disconnection * Community is one of the most powerful antidotes  * Healing helps us access the resilience needed to stay engaged with the challenges of our time * Embodied practices can help transform fear and helplessness into presence, purpose, and action * Working toward a more just and life-affirming future is both a healing practice and an act of hope Staci has been experimenting at the intersections of personal and social transformation for the last 30 years through the work of politicized somatics, trauma healing, embodied leadership, and transformative justice. Her work brings transformative capacity building social and climate justice leaders, organizations and alliances.  She is currently the co-lead of The Outer Work Project, [https://theouterworkproject.org/] an initiative partnering with internationally known trauma healing and embodiment leaders, and their communities, to mobilize thousands of new people into progressive social movements. The first cohort starts July 11th! Staci is the author of The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing and Social Justice (2019) and Healing Sex: A Mind Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma. She co-founded generative somatics and founded generationFIVE, committed to ending child sexual abuse within five generations.  https://www.stacihaines.com/ [https://www.stacihaines.com/] The Outer Work Project https://theouterworkproject.org/ [https://theouterworkproject.org/] Staci’s Books: The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing, and Social Justice https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Trauma-Somatics-Healing-Justice/dp/1623173876 [https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Trauma-Somatics-Healing-Justice/dp/1623173876] Healing Sex: A Mind-Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma ⁠⁠https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Sex-Mind-Body-Approach-Sexual/dp/1573442933 [https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Sex-Mind-Body-Approach-Sexual/dp/1573442933] Trainings: https://www.stacihaines.com/self-paced [https://www.stacihaines.com/self-paced]

Shame Is Almost Always an Attachment Wound

In this heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with longtime colleague and dear friend Deirdre Fay, a pioneering voice in somatic and attachment-based trauma treatment. Reflecting on nearly three decades of shared work, they revisit the early days of trauma therapy—when integrating the body, creativity, and relational healing into psychotherapy was still considered radical. Together, Janina and Deirdre explore how healing from trauma requires more than revisiting painful memories. They discuss the importance of building safety first, helping clients develop the capacity to “notice” rather than become overwhelmed by their internal experiences, and using the body as a gateway to compassion and connection. Their conversation touches on the power of externalization, the role of creativity in trauma treatment, and how shame often emerges not as a personal flaw but as an attachment wound. This episode offers a rich and deeply human reflection on how trauma treatment has evolved—and how healing happens through tiny steps, community, and learning to turn toward what nourishes us. * Safety is the foundation of trauma healing * Healing involves both body and mind * “Notice you noticing” is a powerful therapeutic skill * Shame is often an attachment wound * Community reduces isolation and shame Deirdre Fay believes that a good life is not an accident, but the result of consistently choosing compassion, connection, and inner growth. She invites people to experience life itself as a kind of modern-day Bodhisattva training — learning to listen deeply to the inner wisdom that can guide us through life’s challenges and transitions. Her work resonates with those who appear successful on the surface yet privately struggle with shame, anxiety, depression, emotional distress, or repetitive relationship patterns. Through a transformational methodology developed over more than forty years of clinical practice and teaching, Deirdre offers practical pathways toward building what she calls a Solid, Steady, Secure Self. Rooted in trauma therapy, attachment theory, yoga, and contemporary neuroscience, Deirdre integrates modern therapeutic approaches with wisdom traditions to help people transform suffering into a more fulfilling life. More recently, she has been exploring the use of creative arts as a way of externalizing inner experience and helping people find words for what has previously remained unspoken. Her work has been described as “a radically positive approach to life.” https://www.dfay.com/ Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery: Simple, Safe, and Effective Practices for Therapy https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906 [https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906]