Panic Button

The music in this episode is “Let it Burn,” by Oliver / Aberson.   Find the notes and documents referenced in the episode at https://www.panicbuttonpodcast.com/season-2-operation-wildfire/episode-11 [https://www.panicbuttonpodcast.com/season-2-operation-wildfire/episode-11]   This is the finale of Season Two – we discuss the different measures of justice each survivor got in the courts and we ask: is it enough?   _________________________ TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Leslie Briggs, Colleen McCarty, Marci, Heather, Christen, Karrah   Colleen McCarty  00:00 This episode contains references to accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular and language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. We also discuss suicide, sexual assault, addiction and relapse. Please use caution while listening.   Leslie Briggs  00:35 Welcome to the last episode of season two of panic button operational wildfire. Up to now we've been complaining about a system that fails to hold abusers accountable in a meaningful way. We've spoken to survivors, recanters, law enforcement, district attorneys, restorative justice experts, community advocates, and lawyers. We've reached out to Jim and his family, his business partners and generally tried to find anyone we could, who would give us insight into how these events could have unfolded over three decades, three states and many, many victims.   Colleen McCarty  01:12 Today, we're going to take you through the survivors efforts to seek criminal and civil justice through our courts. Even where they were, quote, successful in having charges brought the actual consequences of those charges were relatively minor. When Justice was fleeting, or altogether absent, several of the women turned toward each other and employed tactics that may raise some eyebrows when you hear about them. You've already heard about the flyer and the defamation case that followed. But what about the others? Heather, Marcy, and Christen. What justice have they seen through the courts? What measures have they relied on the courts failed them? What should survivors do when the system that's supposed to advocate for them doesn't is raising the village and assaulting the earth? The only choice left?   Leslie Briggs  02:06 I'm Leslie Briggs.   Colleen McCarty  02:08 And I'm Colleen McCarty.   Leslie Briggs  02:10 This is panic button season two episode 11.   Colleen McCarty  02:13 Vigilante shit    Leslie Briggs  02:16 It might just be easiest to take this pre and post wildfire that is before and after the flyers. Before the flyers Christen suffered her her violent assault in 2015. And you heard those details in Episode Six. But after officer Rusty Shouse found her in the park bloody and afraid he arrested Jim.   Colleen McCarty  02:36 Officer Shouse filed a police report and an affidavit of probable cause. And here's what he wrote on 320 to 2015. At approximately zero to 31 hours. I was on patrol in the city of Cleveland. When I saw black Dodge Charger parked up Billy vessel's Park on West Cherokee Street. I gave the dispatcher the license plate information and advice that I would be making contact with the person in the vehicle. When I approached the vehicle, I saw a woman and I recognized her as Christen Rochelle Norris. Christen had blood on her hands and face and her nose was bleeding. I asked Christen if she was okay. And she said that she had just parked there for a minute before she headed home. I asked Christen if she needed an ambulance. And she said no. I asked her what happened and she seemed reluctant to answer. I told Christen that I could tell something had happened to her and that she was safe. Now if she wanted to tell me what had happened. Christen told me that she had stopped to see a friend during her visit. And he had hit her in the face. I asked Christen who had hit her and she said I'm afraid of him. I told Christen that she was safe again. And if she wanted to tell me what happened, she could. Christen began crying and her nose began to bleed more. I asked her again if she needed an ambulance. And she said no. I asked Christen, who had hit her. And she said Jimmy lumen James Carroll lumen second. I asked Christen if she wanted to file charges against him and she asked what would happen if she did? I asked Christen. If her and Jimmy were dating and she said that they had dated in the past but until tonight she hadn't talked to him in about a month. Christen said that she was coming home from Fairfax when she received a text from Jimmy asking her to come to his house. Christen said that when she got there, Jimmy was in the driveway. And when she pulled up he got into the front passenger side of her car. Christen said that they were talking and Jimmy was placed slapping her. Christen said that Jimmy got mad when she told him to stop. Christen said that Jimmy spilled her pop in the car. And she got out. Christen says that Jimmy got out of the car also, and that is when they thought Christen says that Jimmy grabbed her by the hair and punched her in the face twice and then pushed her face into the ground. Christen said that Jimmy told her to keep screaming and see what that would get at her, Christen says that Jimmy did not want her to leave. So he got into the driver's seat of her car and was arguing that he was not getting out. Christen said that she was finally able to get in the car and when she was able to get into the driver's seat and lock the doors, she left and went to Billy vessel's Park. I asked Christen, how much Jimmy had been drinking and she said it must have been a lot, because he gets to a point that he turns violent. I asked Christen, if she would make a statement about the incident and she said yes, Christen made a written statement and signed to the prosecution notification form indicating that she did want to pursue charges. While speaking with Christen she said that she was still afraid of him and would get a protective order. I photographed Christen's hands and face showing clear sign of assault. Carson's face was swollen and she said that she had bit her tongue when she was being hit. At 03. For six hours, I went to the address and knocked on the door. Jimmy's mother answered. Then I told her I needed to speak with Jimmy. Jimmy came outside and I advised him that he was under arrest for domestic violence. Jimmy was argumentative, but did not resist arrest. I read Jimmy the Miranda warning and asked if he wanted to talk about the incident. Jimmy said no but would not stop arguing. I transported James Jimmy lumen the second to the Pawnee County jail where he was booked in. When I returned to Cleveland I had four pictures from Pawnee deputy Darren var. Now, the pictures were of blood droppings in the driveway at the address and a picture of bloodstained piece of paper with Chris's name on it. The piece of paper is an invoice from Tulsa Hyundai for the Dodge Charger, like Christen was driving. The paper was logged into evidence.   Leslie Briggs  06:46 Again, I like it when the police get it right.   Colleen McCarty  06:50 He did a good job investigating.   Leslie Briggs  06:52 He investigated he gathered evidence got the facts made an arrest. And actually that leads to the prosecution by the Pawnee County District Attorney at the time who was Rex Duncan, who people may recognize his name if you're super into what's going on in the Oklahoma criminal justice world. He is actually the individual who was hired by the AGs office to conduct an independent investigation of Richard Glossip case. And he did find that there was prosecutorial misconduct in that case, and he's a DA, he's a DA. So we applaud Da's who will hold their own accountable for sure. So his his assistant DA files, the charges against Jim for assault and battery. But Christen doesn't feel or did not feel at the time that the DA who prosecuted her case took a very proactive approach. Christen remembers the DA calling her the day before the trial to tell her not to come to court. Ultimately, there was no trial, the DA allowed Jim to plead guilty to misdemeanor A and B and received an 18 month deferred sentence that and, Colleen, Do you want to remind everybody what deferred sentence means?   Colleen McCarty  07:54 Essentially, for a layman? It's like probation. It's it's what we call out time.   Leslie Briggs  07:59 So what's interesting is you often hear this refrain from DBAs. And we've talked about this, that there, it's hard to prosecute these kinds of crimes without a victim willing to testify. But I mean, we have that here. Right. And we still we don't get the day in court, we don't get the trial, we don't really get the kind of punitive justice that we think violent offenders should receive through our criminal justice system, or that a lot of people think, you know, violent offenders should receive. She doesn't get to get up in front of a jury and have the satisfaction of retelling the story. I don't know just like it's unusual that we have, even when you have a willing victim, like in this case, the case still doesn't get kind of the level of prosecution that I think a lot of people want for these cases.   Colleen McCarty  08:48 Yeah. And I'll just say like, for the other side of that argument, it's like, you could have a willing victim and you can have all the evidence that you need. But if the person is willing to make an agreement about a plea recommendation, most of the time, a prosecutor is going to take it because trial is hard. Sure. It's big. It's a heavy lift. It's a very heavy lift, you block off everybody's day for multiple days, the judge, you know, I'm not arguing against going to trial. But from a resource allocation perspective, right. You have hundreds of cases on your caseload, and one person is saying I'm ready to make this go away. I've never seen a district attorney turn away a rec that the person was going to agree to.   Leslie Briggs  09:35 Yeah. So in any event for Christen, that she doesn't she doesn't feel that she she got a resolution that really served justice for her. But So Christen actually turned to the civil courts and filed a negligence claim against Jim and his mother, Pat, and I for me, I think there's something a little bit poetic here of like, you know, Jim does PI cases, he's dealing he's in the negligence world, you know, dealing with all of that and then he gets hit with One and his mom gets hit with one and they have to, you know, figure out how to provide a monetary resolution to the assault that he perpetrated. That's a form of justice, right?   Colleen McCarty  10:10 I think most people would say, yes. And they would say, drop it now, like you won, you got the settlement, and you gotta get you got a guilty plea in your and in your criminal case.   Leslie Briggs  10:22 Justice or not justice. Justice is   Colleen McCarty  10:26 really complicated. It's very particularized to the person. And yet it's also very universal. What we've heard from our restorative justice experts, is that a lot of pieces of the legal system actually exacerbate a feeling of injustice, and exacerbate a feeling of non closure, I guess. Because the person is incentivized to never tell you what happened. They're never gonna apologize for what happened, that would be incriminating. I mean, I guess unless they take a plea. But he never apologized. He just took the plea and went on probation. Yeah, I think it continued, frankly,   Leslie Briggs  11:07 to deny the severity of it later on down the road, calling it a nosebleed.   Colleen McCarty  11:11 But if you ask them, why wasn't this enough? I think they would tell you, it's because he kept doing it. And he kept hurting more people,   Leslie Briggs  11:21 right. And that's like, some of what Leigh Goodmark this, like her philosophy on this. And she's the law professor out of law school, she out of University of Maryland School of Law, University of Maryland, she's got that book Imperfect Victims. And a lot of her philosophy is the same as like what what Xavier and aurelius would say, of this idea that like, the criminal justice system,   Colleen McCarty  11:44 the carceral system doesn't serve up justice because it doesn't feel good. And it doesn't feel like enough. And it never feels like it's really over either. Like it continues to reopen the wound and reopen the wound. Every time a person gets out. Every time there's a parole hearing. Every time somebody asked to testify at something every time every court is it. Yeah. And it just keeps the pain alive in a way, which is not what true. Restoration looks like. Yeah,   Leslie Briggs  12:15 I think so. Yeah. When you when you really peel back on Christen, you know, you look at these two cases she had she had a civil case and a criminal case. And she was she got what we what lawyers as lawyers, I would say she got she got a guilty plea to the domestic violence case. And she got a money judgment for the negligence case. And so that's as good as it can get. Yeah, that's like double win. And the fact that it still doesn't feel like justice, because he continued to then go on and abuse other women, just for me, exemplifies why that system, it doesn't really serve the purpose, I think that we all expect it to.   Colleen McCarty  12:54 Yeah, but I mean, the question is, and what we've been posing all season is like what would have? This is something that I've heard from people who are more on the supporters of Jim camp that we've spoken to, it's like, what would ever be enough? What would ever be enough? You think that this person should go into prison for the rest of his natural born life?   Leslie Briggs  13:14 I mean, it for me, it's this bigger question of like, I'm still I'm not quite I haven't quite gotten to the point where legged mark is on this on this issue of like, I, I still believe that incarceration serves a function in society to sequester violent people away from nonviolent people. I mean, it's best, that's what that does. But there are so many degrees of harm. And we talk a lot about proportionality in our survivor justice work, and we have to ask ourselves, you know what, like, it's like trying to the same concept as putting $1 value on a body on a body part. You know what I mean? What personal injury attorneys do that all the time, it's like, how much? How much is a numb, useless pinky toe, you've had a slip and fall now your pinky toe is numb all the time? How much is that worth? It's uncomfortable and slightly annoying. It's so bizarre. How much is it? I can't talk about it. You can't talk. Five figures. I mean, it could be as little as 10,000 It could be   Colleen McCarty  14:22 okay, but like, Ah, I don't know, there's like so little value to pinky toe. But I would be so upset if I didn't have   Leslie Briggs  14:34 come on. So, but it's the same concept of like, this idea of like, okay, well, it was the song battery, your face in the gravel. It's like our system of justice. And that sounds probably maybe like a little insensitive when people hear you but it's like our system of justice. Basically, does this transaction, it's transactional. It's, it's supposed to be proportional. And so   Colleen McCarty  14:58 well, this is something that I I've been thinking About a lot of something that we've done with this system with the, quote, criminal justice system that I don't think is necessarily correct is we've taken this idea of like, religious justice. And if you read back in jurisprudence from like the 1800s, or the 1700s, like the judges will acknowledge that there's a moral sense of justice, whatever you want to call it, religious justice, moral justice, karmic justice, whatever you want to call it, that exists separate from our manmade system, our manmade system is full of flaws and is full of people. And it can only deliver this transactional type of outcome. That is never going to feel like karmic justice probably to either side. It's like it's this. It's this in between thing that we've come up with, that's better than people going out and stabbing each other in the street, when they don't agree with something is much better than   Leslie Briggs  15:55 better that yeah, it's better than bashing each other with rocks. But it's   Colleen McCarty  15:58 not meant to be and it's not intended to be healing, healing, or take the place of moral justice, you have to do your own personal work with yourself or your priest, or your therapist, or your meditation or whatever, to get to a place where you can forgive somebody. Yeah. And a lot of people will tell you, if you continue to carry this around, it hurts you a lot more than it hurts the other person.   Leslie Briggs  16:30 That's true. I mean, that's true. And as somebody who holds lots of grudges, I am torture, it's heavy. I'm constantly tortured. The weight of these grudges. No, I mean, but like, honestly, when I like, you know, I'm a grudge prone human, you know, me too. But it has an effect on me mentally. And I'm cognizant of that. And I've done a lot of work, done a lot of self work to try and not be that grudge prone person. But I also I have never been beaten by an intimate partner I have, I can imagine it, I can try to empathize with it. But I really don't know the reality of that existence.   Colleen McCarty  17:09 I think he, I don't know what it would take to like, come to a place where you can let it go. I don't know if the system even plays any part in that. If it plays any. Imagine all the people that are like, victims of domestic partner violence, and they walk away, and they never prosecute. And they never want it to be in the record. And they never, it's so many. All they want to do is just get safe...

In this episode, Colleen and Leslie interview one of Jim’s survivors who has never spoken to anyone about the incident (aside from the police and her mother) in thirty years. The music in this episode is “I Can’t Make you Love me,” by Combsy. You can find the documents and pictures that support this episode at https://www.panicbuttonpodcast.com/season-2-operation-wildfire/episode-10 [https://www.panicbuttonpodcast.com/season-2-operation-wildfire/episode-10] ______________ Episode Transcript   SPEAKERS Carisa, Colleen McCarty, Leslie Briggs   Colleen McCarty  00:00 This episode contains references to accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular in language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. We also discuss coercive control. Please use caution when listening.   Leslie Briggs  00:23 Last week we finally gotten to the subject for which this podcast is named Operation Wildfire. Operation Wildfire was the act of a desperate woman, the act of someone who no longer has faith in her justice system to protect victims from her abuser, the act of someone who was powerless to stop someone else from getting hurt. Some would argue that she acted recklessly. Others would argue that she was bold and brave. One reason the courts didn't believe care about Jim's violence is because she made herself less credible by associating with his other victims. For becoming friends with Kristen, going on a cruise with Kristin and Amber, and continuing to go out of her way to warn his girlfriends about his behavior. All gave rise to questions about her truthfulness.   Colleen McCarty  01:11 Welcome to panic button. Operation Wildfire. This is episode 10. Eureka. If you're just joining us, we recommend you go back and start listening from episode one. The idea that by associating with each other they've heard their cases is a harsh reality. It not only calls Kara's case against Jim into question, but all of these women's cases, it allows Jen to continue to say these women are just crazy bitches who are all obsessed with him. Because we already don't believe women, more women compounded together unfortunately doesn't mean more credibility, it means more suspicion. Imagine if a group of men all alleged someone was violent, instant credibility. But multiple women claiming a man as violent. Instantly everyone starts saying witch hunt.   Leslie Briggs  02:07 When you're dealing with an unreliable witness, or one whose credibility has been attacked, or what we would call, quote, impeached in a court of law, you've got to try to rehabilitate them. You can do that through introducing corroborating statements, maybe you have the ability to put on character evidence for truthfulness. That's one of the exceptions to the no character evidence rule, which we talked about extensively in season one. Or, as we have here, you can put on a witness to testify to their independent experiences, untainted by the corruption of having worked as a group, which is the primary source for having attacked the other witnesses credibility in this case. So Arkansas.   Colleen McCarty  02:49 The crazy thing about the Arkansas case is that Kristen, and Cara have known about it for a really long time. It's not really clear to us how they came to know about it. But they put it on the flyer. Right. And it's only a police report. Right? Kristen spent years looking for this person. And they she was told when she called the Eureka Springs police department that you have to be a lawyer to get the full report because they had a partial report that did not include the name of the of the survey. It was like anonymized right. So they had that one, right. But they'd never had the name. They never had the contact information for this person. They could never find who it was. And it would have been incredibly helpful for Kara, in defending against Jim's defamation suit, possibly to have this person if it did go to trial. We were able to find it. We got the full thing, actually with Kristen's help randomly.   Leslie Briggs  03:57 Yeah, so what's weird about this, too, is that like Kristen tried for a long time to get the full report. And they kept telling her that it had to be a lawyer that would request it, which is untrue. I don't know why they would say that to her. So we requested it. And we got the report. And after we did, she went back and tried again and got it independent of us. She just I mean dog it about getting it. So once once she knew that we were able to get it. She tried again. Got it. And she was able to locate what she believed to be was was this individual.   Colleen McCarty  04:27 We had three or four people narrowed it down to that we thought it was and she was able to ultimately find who it was. And we contacted her. She didn't ever contact her right. Kristen didn't reach out to her. She just gave us the info. Yeah, none of the survivors have ever talked to this person.   Leslie Briggs  04:47 Yep. I've sent her a message on Facebook randomly. And it was almost instantly that she responded I asked her I was like, did you ever know Jim Luman? And the message I got back was "yes, he is a monster."   Colleen McCarty  05:02 So the memory was quite fresh.   Leslie Briggs  05:04 I mean, it was an instant response almost.   Colleen McCarty  05:08 Yeah. And like, I feel like you and I always go into people's "other messages." So like, they might not even see it because we're, yeah, we're sending messages without making friends or strangers to strangers all the time. That's fine. We're not weird.   Leslie Briggs  05:20 We're just trying to find people like that just for the podcast, but for many of our projects, we need community. Yes, so   Colleen McCarty  05:26 we look for people a lot. But the thing that's so remarkable about this person is the recall. Yeah, it was still visceral, very visceral. And she wanted to share. She really wanted to share and so let's quickly read what the police report says into the record of the podcast. And then we will hear from her.   Leslie Briggs  05:55 So the full police report from the Eureka Springs police department states that the date and time of the incident report was March 19 1997. The type of incident was a domestic battery third degree and it happened at the Crescent Hotel. In Eureka Springs. The method of attack says suspect bit, spanked, and assaulted victim. The description of the weapon is mouth, belt and hands. It lists the suspects name is James Carroll Luman II. And the complaintant is a woman named Carisa. And here's the narrative. "On Wednesday, March 19 1997. At 9:15am officers Fortenberry Jacobs and I were dispatched to the Crescent Hotel on a report of a hysterical woman in the lobby." I have issues with that right out of the gate again, where it's 1997. "Fortenberry and Jacobs arrived first and found the woman who identified herself as Carisa. She said her boyfriend had assaulted her and room 218 at 7am this morning after she tried to get him out of bed. She said he woke up angry and hit her very hard and lower back. She said he then pulled her onto the bed and began pushing her face into the bed when she tried to scream. She said he then bit her nose and stuck his fingers down her throat telling her to quit screaming she said he also pulled her bottom lip to the point of bleeding and Bit her on her right forearm. She said he then took off his belt and hit her on the butt and legs five to six times, leaving marks on both. She said she finally got out of the room and into the lobby to get help. Mr. Luman was arrested for domestic battery third degree Class A misdemeanor and transported to the Carroll County Sheriff's Office. Mr. Lumen was taken before Judge Kent cocci in Berryville at 4:30pm. And given a bond of $1,000 and a court date of April 18 1997. In Eureka Springs, it appears that they the officers also took Polaroids of the victim and those are in her file. Here's the affidavit of probable cause." And this court this case was in the municipal court in the city of Eureka Springs, so it wasn't even in like a District Court for the state. This was a municipal issue.   Colleen McCarty  08:12 So we're going to play the recording of our interview with her now.   Carisa  08:17 My name is Carisa   Leslie Briggs  08:19 and how did you know Jim Luman?   Carisa  08:24 I met him. Oh yeah, that's the whole Wow. I met him at work. And started dating him probably the day I started when I met him and actually moved some of my stuff into him into his apartment because I had been because we'd been spending so much time together. Really quick. I was young. I was stupid. And I moved in really quick.   Colleen McCarty  08:52 Where were you guys working at the time?   Carisa  08:55 He was a car salesman or worse than some dealership if I remember correctly. And I was working at a at a club in Tulsa.   Leslie Briggs  09:12 Do you know what dealership he was working at?   Carisa  09:22 No, I don't remember. That's okay. Anyway, he was like a car salesman. And there was a bunch of dealerships around. It was like one of the big guys like Ford or Toyota or something.   Colleen McCarty  09:34 Gotcha. And that was in Tulsa.   Carisa  09:37 Yes.   Leslie Briggs  09:39 And what was the name of the club that you worked out?   Carisa  09:41 No, I don't know if it was. Lady Godiva's or.... I don't know which one it was to be honest with you. I didn't do it for very long. And I've kind of put that whole life out of my mind. So I believe at the time I met him, I was 19. He came in with a bunch of his friends one night, I believe. Kind of like, you know, guys night. And you know, they always press "Well, can we get your number? Can we take you home?" first you always say no. And he just came in, and he was just really, like, polite and charming. And he wasn't trying to get me to go home with them. And he was like, No, I really want to just take you out to lunch. And then like, you know, like an idiot 'cause I'm only 19. And I didn't understand the world. I was playing in pretty much. And so I was like, yeah. And he was just really charming. And he took me out. You know, he never pressed anything. And he was just, you know, sweet.   Colleen McCarty  11:02 Do you remember where you had your first date? Your first lunch date at?   Carisa  11:09 No, he was Italian or something. It wasn't like, like, I could tell you every detail on that night. But I can't tell you all the details that led up to it. Yeah, if that makes any sense.   Leslie Briggs  11:24 Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Well, so how long were you guys dating before you took the trip to Arkansas? couple nights? A couple of Yeah.   Carisa  11:36 I mean, I had I didn't have all my stuff there. But I had quite a bit of my stuff there. Well, I wouldn't say quite a bit, but I had enough. I had clothes and you know, stuff that you would think you'd wake up and go to work. I mean, I'd been spending the night over there, you know, probably three or four nights a week at least. And I mean, it was just good. It was normal. We, you know, we never thought there was it was really good until it wasn't. It was it was fine. It was he. He was He liked his job. I remember that. And remember, he really enjoyed it. It was doing really well. And I was making good money. And we were just having fun. And we went out to Arkansas to celebrate his birthday. I believe. Did   Colleen McCarty  12:29 you know his son or his ex wife, Dawn? No. As you mentioned,   Carisa  12:36 I didn't know he had a son. I knew I take that back. I knew he had been married. And that he didn't like to talk about it at one time we drove out into the country. And I don't know if it was a family member or somebody but he said I think it was like his brother or sister lived there. But I think later it was probably when he drove me by his ex wife's house, I think. I don't know. But that's just kind of what I got when I when some people were telling me stuff a couple years later. I don't know. But he said it was I think maybe it was he said it was his mom's but I thought it was really weird because we didn't stop.   Leslie Briggs  13:22 Right? Yeah, that is unusual.   Carisa  13:23 There's my mom's house. Wave!   Leslie Briggs  13:29 Right. So before the that you were you guys moved really quickly, right from just this date to moving in with him. And then you guys go to Arkansas. And yeah, that's the first to   Carisa  13:43 celebrate something. I think it was his birthday. Or his birthday was like next week or something. Yeah. And I had to be at work the next day. So we just went up there for the night.   Leslie Briggs  13:53 And so was that the first time any? You got any indication that something wasn't quite right.   Carisa  14:01 No. We didn't fight. Yeah, but I also didn't want to not because I couldn't argue with them because I'm pretty feisty. I just knew I didn't want to I I can't explain it. You just it's just one of those people used to look at me like now I don't feel like being feisty with this one. I can't. You just didn't. I don't know. Maybe that's why we didn't fight it's because I just okay, I was just like, okay.   Leslie Briggs  14:39 Yeah, no, I think I think lots of women probably make those calculations every single day in their lives of like, am I going to you know, say something here. Am I just going to let it lie and live you know?   Carisa  14:57 Exactly. To me. Jimmy was never Serious. I was there for my own reasons. And I had my own issues going on at the time I had a child myself, that was very young that I was away from. At the time, I knew him and so he was never going to be serious. It was always just fun for me. That's why I didn't like move all my stuff. And I just moved in enough to, you know, wake up the next day, so I had some comfort.   Leslie Briggs  15:27 Yeah, yeah. So would you guys go driving around like quite a bit? Was that a regular activity for you guys?   Carisa  15:35 I think so. Yeah, remember, we've got the country and it's so weird. I thought I would remember every detail of everything about him, but I just I've been so many years since I thought about it. And and it's not something I like to think about tell you the truth. And, you know, I just I forgotten a lot of the stuff but uh, yeah, I think we did drive around, move out so country a few times, and made the drive to Arkansas. So that was like, normal. Yeah. I would say it was normal.   Leslie Briggs  16:11 Yeah. And, you know, I have the incident report. I've been able to get that as part of a public record with from the police. And so I know some of what happened. So why don't you just tell me what you can remember.   Carisa  16:29 He wanted to stay in a haunted place. The whole thing like it was, I'm pretty sure it was his birthday, or was going to be his birthday. or some type of celebration. Anyways, we went up there. We got up there. Six or seven that night. We went to a couple of bars, but he got us a hotel. In this place that used to be like an asylum or something.   Colleen McCarty  16:49 I think it was The Crescent.   Carisa  16:56 Yeah, some haunted hotel.   Colleen McCarty  17:00 It had appeal to him that it used to be an asylum?   Carisa  17:04 Yeah. Yeah, it was supposed to be haunted. Ooh, we're gonna go in this haunted thing. You know? I don't know. I was just like, cool. Because that's kind of how I was about everything. Sure. Let's do it. And we went out, we went out to a, we stopped in a couple of bars. We were drinking a little bit that. I mean, we were walking around, it was still kind of chilly at night. And we got home, we got back to the room fairly early. We didn't shut down the bars or anything.   Leslie Briggs  17:38 It says then that you reported that he grabbed you by the throat.   Carisa  17:44 Like before? Um, yeah, yeah. But it was like, it wasn't. It was scary. But it wasn't. I don't know the sounds so bad. But it wasn't like he was like, at the time, I didn't take it as something I needed to be fearful of it was almost like he was playing around a little too rough. If that makes sense?   Leslie Briggs  18:08 No. A lot of sense. And also, you know, I think I just want to say this that. I called you I contacted you out of the blue today, you don't know me from Adam. And I'm asking you to tell me one of the most traumatic things that's ever happened to you. So like, I just, I want to name that and say that I appreciate your candor and your vulnerability with us because I think it's important. And then like another thing I just want to say to you is you don't have to make any excuses to us for anything that you chose to do or not do with...

The song in this week's episode is "Surefire," by Wilderado. You can access the show notes at https://www.panicbuttonpodcast.com/season-2-operation-wildfire/episode-9 [https://www.panicbuttonpodcast.com/season-2-operation-wildfire/episode-9] S2:E9 WILDFIRE follows the story of one of Jim's survivors as she tries to hold him accountable in the court of public opinion. She was told by the Sapulpa police that they would not pursue charges. Once she learned about all the other survivors, she created a flyer to distribute about Jim's past abuses. Can your abuser sue you for spreading the truth? Can he win? _________ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT   SPEAKERS Leslie Briggs, Colleen McCarty, Josh Kidd, Karrah   Leslie Briggs  00:00 This episode contains references to accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular, and language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. We also discuss coercive control. Please use caution when listening.   Karrah  00:16 Yes, he retaliated and takes my weed mugshot, which is like hysterical because I got, I got pulled over with a little bit of weed one time and the smile, I smiled in the mug shot, because I was like, I'm gonna take advantage of this mug shot. And I'm like, I'm gonna smile. And like, I didn't even I didn't have to, like, put the clothes on or anything. I didn't have to like go behind bars or anything. He takes that mugshot and makes a he tries to get it put on a billboard. But nobody would do it for him, I guess. And he bought a website, know your neighbors dot biz or something like that. And puts my mug shot on there. But you can't tell it's a mug shot because I was smiling really big. And he put my face all over town and was warning neighbors about me. I got a call. At work. I start getting calls. And they're like, carry out your faces on signs around town. He put one by my daughter's school, which was also a violation of my protective order. I but they didn't. When I reported it as a violation. They didn't count it as one. They didn't count any of his violations as any as a violation. He did. And I found this out. This was like right before, this was in 2021. Right after he beat his wife number five. His house was on Zillow. And somebody sent me a link to his house. And I could see my face on the sign and this yard next to his house. In Iowa.   Colleen McCarty  02:04 Everything in life has a tipping point. No matter what, at some point, the way you've been living becomes too much and something has to get for Jim lumen. The tipping point came when he met Karrah. He didn't know that was the moment and neither did she. But the end of the relationship sparked a series of events that's almost too crazy to believe.   Leslie Briggs  02:34 In Episode Six, you heard the survivors accounts of abuse and harrowing detail. Karrah was the survivor who Jim took to Branson on their first date. They only dated for three weeks in October of 2014. Three weeks that would change both of their lives in immeasurable ways. The thing about Karrah is that she has a very fundamental and pronounced sense of what's right and wrong. There's no compromising, and there's no excuses. So when she found out about all the other women that Jim had abused, including the women who she was told to hate when she was dating, her basic humanity transcended all of the mental manipulation. And she began to reach out to them. She and Christen really became close and they bonded over what they went through. What happens when these women begin to organize is remarkable.   Colleen McCarty  03:22 This is panic button. Operation Wildfire, and you're listening to Episode Nine. Wildfire. I'm Colleen McCarty.   Leslie Briggs  03:33 And I'm Leslie Briggs.   Colleen McCarty  03:35 If you're just getting started with us, we recommend you go back and start listening from episode one. Leslie, one of the most remarkable parts about this story is the companionship that emerges between so many of Jim's victims,   Leslie Briggs  03:51 right. I mean, they were told during their relationships with him that they were each crazy bitches obsessed with him. They're scorned lovers. They just want to get him back. And often that's happening while they're dating him simultaneously. Like he's talking about someone who's actively dating and saying she's just obsessed with me. I broke up with her already. And I guess something we should talk about Colleen is like that culturally in the United States. Women are bombarded with subconscious messaging, and I mean overt messaging as well. That push us to compete with one another for resources, men jobs, romantic attention. I mean, do you agree? Yes,   Colleen McCarty  04:30 I think it's often called internalized misogyny. But it's the idea that, you know, women hold up the patriarchy almost as much if not more than men do. It's the idea that what you're wearing to work is going to be scrutinized not by the men, but by the other women. What your you know, social circles think of you is more important than or what your church thinks of you was maybe sometimes more important than what your husband thinks of you? Or what what are the other women going to say or think or what's the gossip going to be? I mean, I think there's a lot of fear of women's judgment. I mean, when I hear these stories about these genuine friendships that developed between these women that were competing, for the same exact man who all slept with the same man, while had the same exact experience with the same man, it's pretty like it really bends my brain, the fact that they could just like lift up out of their pain and see past the manipulation is one thing. But then, to reach out and become friends with each other is something you just don't see very often. So we talked about this recently together, and we're bringing it onto the podcast, but in a function of their of healing their trauma and growing, becoming friends was actually a great thing for them, they could reflect with each other share stories, and Bond through what were some of the hardest moments of their lives. They needed each other to get through this. But often, they didn't have anyone else. And they didn't feel safe going to family or current people in their life, with what had happened to them. But this is something that frustrates me still, to this day, even after we've heard this story. So many times, legally, their relationships with each other are extremely problematic. And if they associate with each other about these cases, the system looks at that with suspicion. Every attorney when the time comes to go in front of a judge or a jury will hit them hard with accusations that these women are simply getting together and getting their stories straight, organizing their testimony to be consistent making sure that they all say similar things. So they sound more credible,   Leslie Briggs  06:47 right? I think for me, so it's like hard for me to take off the lawyer here. Because if you want to get him in a civil or criminal case, you can't, can't cannot hang with your fellow survivors, you simply can't. Because that would be we don't believe women, we just don't. Juries don't believe women. And so when you when you give the other side an opportunity to to attack your credibility. It's pretty hard to come back from   Colleen McCarty  07:18 Yeah, but that just plays into this perfect victim narrative that like, you have a therapist and a mom and a grandma. And that's their purpose in your life is to go to with your problems. And you don't need anybody else. And you can find you a good man. And you don't need to worry make better choices make better choices like that police told like that police officer told Ember from episode one, it's just, it's not realistic, especially in the face of the systemic indifference that these people are facing at the time,   Leslie Briggs  07:48 right? You have a system that has not done very much. There have been some things but not much. And we were talking about like 30 Day jail sentences, where he gets out in a week for like the abuse that he perpetrated upon Christen. And it's like, okay, well, I tried that. I tried that, that criminal process, and I got jack shit. I'm gonna try a civil process.   Colleen McCarty  08:15 The counterpoint to all of that is like, what is going when is it ever going to be enough for you? When is it ever? You you've got the prosecution? You've got the deferred since he got the conviction, you bought the things you want it, it wasn't enough for you? Why wasn't it enough for you? Why didn't it feel like justice to you?   Leslie Briggs  08:32 Because it didn't stop him. It didn't fix the problem. And like, that's what I would. That's how I think if I could channel any of those women, it didn't fix it. There were several more victims after Christen got the 30 day jail sentence. And, frankly, like, this is like the it's the big overarching criminal justice problem, like problem is that incarceration doesn't solve the root cause of violence, or like the root problems with community safety. And so and we've heard from the experts last week, and we'll move we're gonna move on from this topic here just a minute, but like, I get frustrated, because I don't know. I don't know what the answer is to this.   Colleen McCarty  09:20 I mean, I think a lot of people don't know. But the problem is, we haven't been allowed to study it. We haven't been allowed to try other things. Right. We've been allowed to, like, try restorative justice with these kinds of cases race are looking No,   Leslie Briggs  09:33 like the investment in alternative resolutions. Isn't hasn't happened in Oklahoma. And I'm just not convinced that incarceration has done anything to solve Jim's behaviors.   Colleen McCarty  09:47 No, and like, what are we saying though? Like he needs to go to prison for life then I just like no,   Leslie Briggs  09:53 I just I disagree with that as well.   Colleen McCarty  09:55 I mean, I think that's what that's how Jim's family feels is that these women will be up he until he's in a graver and behind bars for the rest of his life like The Green Mile. Right?   Leslie Briggs  10:06 Right. And I think the problem is that the trauma for them is still so visceral, the system re traumatize them. And there wasn't any healing. I'm just like, gonna say you're like Xavier. And it really is and their take on how to heal those traumas. I agree with. I think that's the only real viable solution.   Colleen McCarty  10:27 I mean, human psychology says the only way to heal things like this is not further separation, further abuse gation further, hiding and stave, pleading the fifth and the things that the legal system is built to do. It is built to bring only the relevant evidence and relevant based on a judge's opinion. It is, you know, only built to do those things and various, it only really works in very limited circumstances, personal interpersonal relationships, interpersonal violence, the solution is probably never, you're never going to feel fully healed. Because you're just never going to feel fully healed after a criminal prosecution no matter what happens. Yeah. Because you never get to hear from that person, how it impacted them that you never get to hear from them that they had, that it had an impact on them what they did, that they recognize the impact that it had on you that they're sorry, they no one ever gets to hear what really happened because the point is to obfuscate what really happened,   Leslie Briggs  11:34 right? Well, I think that the point is also to protect the individual liberty of the defendant, which is like you and I both agree feel very strongly that that needs to happen is one of the most critical facets of our entire legal system. So this has been a huge sidebar. Yeah, I do. I do think that we should hear from Karrah about what she thought about banding together helped her HURT   Colleen McCarty  12:02 Do you feel like your friendship with the other girls in any way undermine your credibility in the courts?   Karrah  12:11 Absolutely, I do I feel like I feel like like me going in to I went with I had Christen with me a lot of times when I would be filling out violations of things or when I would be filing all my court filings or anything Christen would come with me sometimes Amberwood in the beginning and they basically would just look at you like you two crazy girls that are teaming up against this poor guy like it was pretty much like leave the poor guy alone at mentality and and they would ask me well, why are you even friends you and it was really where do you even therapist seem to not encourage me and Christen being friends. It was really strange like the the way that our friendship was looked down upon. It has been for a long time.   Colleen McCarty  13:16 So even despite the suspicion phrased and Karen knowing that this raises the hackles of of all the legal participants in this situation, it doesn't stop her from forming a plan after she realizes that her case is going to get dismissed against Jim are basically is not even gonna get investigated at all. She decides to take matters into her own hands.   Karrah  13:42 The minute I found out my case was dropped a day before my mom died. And when my mom died, I did not get sad like most people do when their mom dies, I felt like a big badass warrior. All of a sudden, I felt like my mom would die if she knew I was freaking rolling over to this guy if I was just not doing anything to stand up to him. And so I I didn't know that I was going to hang the flyer at the time. I made the I was going to make a flyer I just wanted to make a graphic that had at least a warning. Yeah, I was thinking about making a website honestly. And I was and I knew that if I just put it and I was having a hard time searching for him. I couldn't prove that he was any kind of criminal when I was with him. I couldn't look into his background to see that he had any kind of violent history. And so I learned that if you actually put in lumen to like when you're searching for him It pulls up a lot more stuff. But so, but people don't know that. So I wanted a way to condense some information, some public information about him, also with people. And I wanted to use women that personally told me things that he had done with them. So I made a flyer, I put his one of his mugshots on it, I made a list of some of his crimes that you could find online, including, like the casket stuff, just because it's creepy. I put that one in there just because I wanted someone to pull it up and see that he has a casket lawsuit. Yeah, I know that. I mean, I just threw that in there. Because everybody needs to know about the caskets. No. And so I, I just put a list of the allegations from the women that I had personally heard from. I I just Christen and I talked, it was it was right after my mom's funeral. It was the weekend of my mom's funeral. And we were going to do something that we were going to do something to because the police weren't doing anything, we were at least going to hang one flyer, like we were at least going to put one flyer up. And so I ended up going. We talked on the phone the night before Christen and I and we said okay, we're doing this tomorrow. And I didn't think we were actually going to do it. And she didn't think we were actually going to do it. And last thing I knew I was at the place that she was house sitting at, we were on our way to make 200 copies, color copies of the flyer after I made the flyer after we made the copies. I realized that my email address was at the on the bottom of each fucking one of them. And I had to tear off my email address off of all 200 of them before we hung them. But anyway, sorry, that was a long story. So we we didn't want our cart her car to be seen on camera. So we went to the airport and we rented a Mustang. And we named it wildfire because we were about to be spreading the truth like wildfire. And we took the Mustang to Cleveland, gems hometown, and we hung fliers pretty much everywhere that we could think of including his sister's grave. We hung one at the Hickory House Restaurant is favorite place to eat. We hung one at the police station at the library at the place that they get shakes. I can't remember what it was a really good like ice cream place but the dairy barn, we put one at the dairy barn. We put one at his sister's house. I think we threw a few out there at the school at the park where Christen was found. And then toward the end we we went up we put them up we I think Kristin put it judges house because she used to clean for him. At the end we had a few leftover and we went up to the top of this hill and we just throw them out and watch them fly up cross this golf course and over this hill it felt fucking amazing. It felt like we had finally we laughed so hard that day. I was wearing sunglasses, a black hoodie, black everything because I didn't want to be on people's cameras, because I knew Jim would be coming after me. And so I mean, it was truly like vigilante justice. And you know, neither one of us are like, you know, it was like we both have jobs and stuff. So it was like we were really felt like we were getting by with something and and we were probably well, a few days later, I started to get a lot of angry messages from the women on the flyer. I started to get angry messages from a lot of people in general, saying How dare you put this up? Basically, he had a lot of women blaming each other for he didn't know who did it. And everyone was blaming each other for it. Everyone was freaking out thinking he was going to come after them. Because he was kind of livid. And he was blaming every woman on the flyer and they kept coming to me and they're like, he's coming after me because of this flyer. And I'm like, Well, I gotta take it. I got I take full responsibility for it because I can't handle all these poor women going through more trauma because of this flyer. I did not even like think that through at all I did, I did Black their eyes, like put a bar across their eyes and like, covered their names like I mean, it was completely anonymous. Like they...

This week's episode is a break from the heavy story telling to ask the experts. Our expert panel features:  * Ashley Nix, Assistant District Attorney and Director of the Special Victim's Unit at the Tulsa County DA's Office * Xavier Graves, Executive Director of the Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma * Detective Amy Hall, Supervisor Family Violence Unit, Tulsa Police Department  * Aurelius Francisco, Co-Executive Director of Foundation for Liberating Minds  Listen as they discuss the real on the ground realities of dealing with domestic violence in a state like Oklahoma, that has some of the highest rates of interpersonal violence in the country.

The song in this episode is Nightmares by Keyland. Documents and Resources for this episode are available here: https://panic-button-episode-7-show-notes.tiiny.co [https://panic-button-episode-7-show-notes.tiiny.co]   Episode 7 “Didn’t Think It Could Get Worse” follows the survivors of Jim Luman after their breakups. Nails in your driveway? DHS showing up at your house? A professional complaint filed on you at the Board of Nursing? The abuse never seems to end, even when you leave.   ______   TRANSCRIPT       Colleen McCarty  00:00 The contents of this episode includes topics that cover separation abuse and legal abuse as well as violence against women, and potentially bestiality. It's not suitable for children under 18.   Heather  00:21 So after I left him, he made a formal complaint to that I worked nursing. So I had to go and sit in front of the board and answer to everything that he said I did. There was a HIPAA concern, because I looked at his files, which I was consulting, so whatever, um, there was a, an accusation that I was guilty of Beast reality. There was, there's like six things. The number one thing that stands out is he said that I cut the GPS locator off of my state car. I left that office, I drove to our state garage, went to the mechanic and said, Tell me my GPS is working. He in fact, told me my GPS was gone. They looked back. My GPS was disabled in October. So he took that GPS off my car in October, I don't even know where the damping is, I wouldn't know how to take the thing off. So this was before we got married, that he cut this locator off.   Leslie Briggs  01:28 That was Heather, Jim's fourth wife. Extracting yourself from an abusive relationship is difficult, even when you have an incredible support system and everything falls in place. But with Jim, he makes every effort to interfere with manipulate and threaten other aspects of your life that make it much more difficult to leave. And with Heather, you can see he tried to get her nursing license taken away. It's a form of coercive control, post separation, abuse, Colleen Do you want to tell us what legal abuse and post separation abuse are?   Colleen McCarty  02:09 Yeah, so there are some kinds of abuse that are so covert and misunderstood even now that we're just as a society starting to build a language to even talk about them. And two of the types that are particularly prevalent in Jim's cases are legal abuse, also called litigation abuse, and the second one is post separation abuse or also called separation abuse. So firstly, legal abuse and domestic violence relationship refers to instances where the abuser is using the legal system to manipulate or exert control over their victim. And this can range from frivolous filings of lawsuits protective orders, falsely accusing the victim of crimes, manipulating custody agreements or arrangements and potentially withholding financial support. The abuser can use legal means to further isolate the victim from friends and family, such as by falsely obtaining protective orders, or making false complaints to government agencies like in our state, it's called DHS, like making child custody or saying that you're not parenting your child appropriately. Right. And then the second one host separation abuse is particularly in domestic violence relationship where the abuse continues after the victim leaves. And this can include harassing the victim through phone calls, text messages, social media, stalking, making face, sorry, making false accusations to friends, family, or law enforcement and using custody arrangements as a means of control. It's also like, using threats against someone's life, against their children's lives, threats or future violence to try to keep someone from leaving. Because we know that once someone does leave a relationship like this is the most dangerous time. Right. And we know he likes to also use suicide as a threat to live in who may be preparing to leave or or making an attempt to leave. Yes. And so it makes essentially for post for post separation abuse. It makes people stay in violent relationships, which is something a lot of people don't understand. It's like I hear this all the time. Like why do they stay? Why do they say in the such a trope for me? Because I've heard it so many times but also I feel like we kind of woke up to this as a society in like 2016 but people in Oklahoma are still asking me why did she stay and it's like post separation abuse is usually the answer. Because if they try to leave they I think in our first episode Kate waits Professor Kate waits describes this idea of like there are a lot of reasons why people say and situations they shouldn't stay in --  take all of those and then add the threat to your life.   Leslie Briggs  04:57 Right yeah.   Colleen McCarty  05:00 And then the fear of being alone to face this kind of abuse can just make leaving seem kind of like, insurmountable and daunting.   Leslie Briggs  05:09 Yeah, and, you know, I will just say that I go I find myself cycling through when we you know, not not just with some of the stories on this podcast, but with all a lots of our work on domestic abuse cycling through the "Why did she stay? Well, I wouldn't do it that way." And then remind, you know, it's like a, it's a it's so ingrained in our culture and society that those cycles play through my mind on occasion, and I have to catch myself and go, you know, why she stayed? Yeah, you know, the the having the ability to leave and leave successfully without dying is -- it's a monumental task and post separation abuse to your point is generally the reason that it's so so difficult.   Colleen McCarty  06:02 And the fear of the unknown to you, it's like that whole thing about the devil you know, is better than the devil you don't I think a lot of times, and we say this in season one that survivors know how to keep themselves safe. And oftentimes the ways that they keep themselves safe are staying   Leslie Briggs  06:18 right. And also to you know, Angela Beatty who's an expert on this issue to her point in season one as well that like, most times, people want want the abuse to stop, they want the person that they love to just do what you said, I think in the first episode is like be the person that they can see that they're capable of the potential potential to be a good person and to stop doing this is also a factor in leaving, but in case you didn't know, I'm Leslie Briggs,   Colleen McCarty  06:48 and I'm Colleen McCarty, this is panic button, season two, Operation Wildfire, you're listening to episode seven. Didn't think it could get worse.   Leslie Briggs  06:59 If you're just joining us, you'll want to go back and start listening from episode one.   Colleen McCarty  07:02 One of the most important things to remember about Jim is that he fancies himself a legal expert and works closely with attorneys. His sister was an attorney. And he, according to his friends, learned how to practice law from working with her. Through his work with PI and Associates, he is always connected to an attorney who could represent Him in exchange for his services, on the PI consulting work. So in all these cases we're looking at he was never short, any legal help if he wanted to file a lawsuit. Conversely, his victims or survivors don't have the money to hire lawyers don't know which lawyers would be good don't have access to just free legal help anytime they want. And so it ends up becoming a very huge imbalance of power for them. And anyone who's like embedded in the legal community in any ways that they're putting forward, can inherently be an intimidating for people who are not familiar with the courts or with legal processes. And his relationships with attorneys are also helpful in getting him favorable plea deals in some of these smaller counties where the attorneys that he has work with the judges and the prosecutors a lot. And it's just sort of this off the bat advantage that he has in any type of legal proceeding, I would say.   Leslie Briggs  08:29 Yeah, I think, you know, there's like a running joke from folks like folks who, who practice mostly in federal courts then find themselves in a state court called Getting hometowned. You don't I mean, you're in front of the local judge who deals with the local bar, those attorneys are in that courthouse every single day. And it's not to say that, like judges are just not applying the law, although   Colleen McCarty  08:56 the other day said, Well, in federal court they care about the Constitution.   Leslie Briggs  09:01 Well, the truth hurts wake up, wake up Oklahoma do better. But I will say like so it's like these relationships, these relationships impact the proceedings for sure. Like it just not that the law doesn't get applied, but it can make, you know, if it's a close race, it can it can impact the final decision.   Colleen McCarty  09:20 Plus, it just makes it easier. It's like when your attorney goes in to talk to the prosecutor about your case about trying to get you a deal and it's a prosecutor they work with every day and they know you always bring them reasonable deals and they make recs to you because you know, I did five recs from yesterday I have to do a rec for him today like it's just it ends up as human nature does. It ends up being this like I'm familiar with this person and this is what I did for them yesterday and this is what I did for them the day before and so that's what I am expected to do for them today. And if yesterday I gave his guy a six month plea on deferred for or domestic assault? And today I'm gonna give his guy a six month deferred.   Leslie Briggs  10:04 Yeah, you like naturally people fall into patterns and those patterns play out in the courthouse. No lawyers are no different from regular humans.   Colleen McCarty  10:12 What What?   Leslie Briggs  10:14 No, but many survivors are afraid to leave violent situations, right, as we're just discussing that they know the system will struggle to separate them from their abuser, particularly if you're married, and particularly if you have minor children, that can just add to the difficulties. And oftentimes, the system, as we've seen throughout this podcast will fail to really hold their abuser to account or fail to stop that abuser from hurting them. Like, on the one hand, you have this idea of accountability that this person needs to answer for what they did. But on the other hand, you just have like immediate safety issues that need to be dealt with. And so it's like, this system is kind of shitty at both, unfortunately. And so but when abusers particularly abusers, like Jim continue to escape consequences, it continues to put survivors and future victims in danger. And something we hear a lot a lot from prosecutors and courts is that they can't prosecute cases where victims don't want to cooperate.   Christen  11:09 They told me that it was likely going to get a jury the assault charge. And they said, you know, we're not going to let him buy or we're not going to produce or whatever they were telling me, they weren't going to let him off or whatever. And then they called me on a Sunday, and said, Don't come to court tomorrow, we're not even going to hear the case. And then I got a call on Monday that said, we settled or whatever, and he pled not guilty. And or, you know, he pled guilty, and we reduced to, but like anger management or something, whatever. I just like collapsed, like right there, I can remember exactly where I was whenever I got that phone call.   Colleen McCarty  11:53 So go off girl,   Leslie Briggs  11:55 you know, I feel about this going. We've talked about this, in this case, particularly like let's take Christen's case, I have never met a woman more ready to get in front of a judge and a jury and take this man to task. She's ready to tell the story of what happened in that driveway. And you had a prosecutor who had a victim who would testify and what did that prosecutor do? offered a plea the night before the jury trial, and just told her not to show up? And what was the plea?   Colleen McCarty  12:26 At 90 days,   Leslie Briggs  12:28 so that the plea was 18 months? 18 months deferred. Now. He's on he's on that deferred sentence, when the shit happens with Heather and Iowa and he gets arrested. Oh, yeah. And so they then Christen being unwilling to give up, goes back to that prosecutor and says revoke, revoke that deferred sentence, because he's been arrested in Iowa, hold him to account in Oklahoma. And you know what happens?   Colleen McCarty  12:56 We're like, hey, you know what, and other states already doing that. So I don't really want to.   Leslie Briggs  13:01  what we get, though, we do get we do get a revocation, we do get a revocation. But do you know what the court sent? sentences him to? Is it the 90 days, 90 days? So we've gone down from gone 18 months, 18 months to 90 days? And then and then and then you know how I feel about this?   Colleen McCarty  13:20 Oh, it's very bad.   Leslie Briggs  13:22 And then he actually So Jim, having access to those lawyers, allows him to do something that is pretty much unheard of, in a case like this, you get 90 days in jail, credit time served, buddy, credit time serve. So if he got arrested, he spent five nights in jail. It's only 85 days. He appealed that decision. I still have questions logistically about how all of this happened in 90 day. I think he probably isn't retroactive. I think he probably what probably happened was like a bond was posted in the desert, like the sentence was stayed pending appeal. But the he lost the appeal. However, however, in the interim, he goes to anger management for 52 weeks, at some point, he has little certificate of completion that he presents to the court. And he goes and he files a motion for judicial review. Okay, he's saying he goes back to the trial court loses on appeal, goes back to the trial court says, Hey, Judge, check out this certificate from 52 weeks of anger management. And and by the way, in the interim, they've started bullying me these women have started bullying me on the internet and calling me an abuser online. How That's so unfair. I deserve 30 days instead. And he gets it and he gets it and he fucking gets it.   Colleen McCarty  14:41 You know what's crazy about this, like we're putting all the pieces together for you and letting you build the puzzle yourself. But if you listen to episode two, you might feel like this is a little bit familiar because it's a pattern Jim's father throughout the 1970s and now 1980s and early 1990s had a lot of his sentences reduced through these types of post conviction filings. And I don't think that's a coincidence at all. Every prosecutor I talked to you about this, every single one of them, every single one. I mean, it's like they're trained to say says domestic violence victims need to cooperate and prosecute their abusers. They walk away, they drop everything, they dropped the POS, they want to get back together with him. This is a toxic relationship, and she needs to just balls up, and go sit in front of a jury and testify against him if she really wants him to get time. And I would like to proffer to our listeners that that is bullshit.   Leslie Briggs  15:47 This this, these cases prove it.   Colleen McCarty  15:50 Not only that, but have you ever seen a murder victim testify at a trial? Oh, they can't. They're dead, they're dead. There's also an entire type of prosecution, which I know is now kind of happening in Tulsa County, at least, called Evidence Based prosecution, where you use all of the evidence, what a fucking concept, to prosecute the person, and you don't need that person's first hand testimony saying he hit me, you can actually just use the pictures and the medical records. And you can fucking get somebody prosecuted like that you don't have to force people to come back to the courthouse and go through this very traumatic process where they feel scared and in danger, right. And it's, it's also just this other form of victim blaming, we talked about in the last episode, but our whole system is this whole thing about not only are you a victim of violence, but you need to be the person that's solely responsible for doling out the consequences. And if you don't want to do that, and you don't have balls up, then you can just expect him to get out and hit you again. And that's your fault. Fuck yeah. I mean, yeah, that's what this is. That is what this is. That's been their approach for the whole history of time. Yeah, the whole history of of like the criminal justice system in the state of Oklahoma since we were first formed.   Leslie Briggs  17:07 But again, to reiterate, these women are ready, get them in front of a jury because they want to tell, they want to tell the public what happened. And there's evidence and there's evidence, lots of photos, lots of medical records, lots of voicemails, lots of text messages, lots of emails. The list goes on. But addition to the problems that we have with how prosecutors approach this often, many of the victims have tried to go to police to report what's happened in them. Only to be told, we're not here, not only are we like, not, you know, we're not only are we going to defer this person out, but we're not actually even going to make we're not going to charge them. We're not going to pursue this in any way.   Colleen McCarty  17:50 When Karrah tried to go to the police for her assault and rape. Her report what had happened to them. And to be fair, we'll talk about this in a later episode. It was several months after it happened because he threatened her only child and told her that if she told anyone he would kill her child. But she goes to law enforcement only to be told that the officers were not going to bring him in for questioning because he just didn't want to go.   Leslie Briggs  18:15  Is that right?   Colleen McCarty  18:16 Yeah. They said he doesn't want to come in for questioning. So there's nothing we can do. That was from the police. And then she went to the district attorney. And now you'll get to hear some from that meeting.   Karrah  18:25 When I was dropping him off. I told him I was gonna go to the police station. And he said that he would kill if I did. He said, If I tell a soul, he will tell it will kill. And my only child and I 100% believed him because he was very much capable of killing. And so I didn't tell a soul. I say that. It turns out I did. I told my sister I told my boss. And other than that, I went on to teach piano and pretend like it never happened. After all of this happened with Luman, he told me he was going to kill ___. So I didn't come forward a few months later, I actually got he started reaching out to me. And I actually would reach out to him because I kind of wanted a little bit of closure a little bit like I wanted to, I didn't want to meet him in person at all. I just wanted to be like, Hey, I know. I know. You're an abusive motherfucker kind of thing. And so he he sent me a message one night that said What's up? And I said...