Pearl Dive Podcast

06. Beyond the Golden Pagoda

32 min · I går
episode 06. Beyond the Golden Pagoda cover

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Welcome to episode 6 of our series discussing the history of Burmese American Christianity (Pearl Dive episode 225)! This series is part of Fuller AACHI’s Burma Diaspora Christianity Project led by Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe. What happens when a deep-rooted faith travels thousands of miles to a new home? In this episode of Pearl Dive, we venture into the heart of the Burmese Diasporic Christianity project. Host Tim Tseng sits down with scholars Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Mo to uncover the “priceless pearls” of a community often left out of the mainstream narrative. We explore the initial hurdles of arrival and the complex numbers behind a growing population that the US Census doesn’t quite know how to count. This isn’t just a history lesson; it’s a look at the grit and grace required for adaptation. We dive into how Burmese Catholics and Protestants are navigating the tension between their ancestral traditions and the American religious landscape. From the staggering estimates of 3 million Asian Catholics in the US to the specific struggles of the Burmese diaspora, this conversation reveals how a community maintains its soul while building a future in the West. Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges You are warmly invited to attend the 2026 Our Story, Our Faith (OSOF) Conference: Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges [https://ourstoriesourfaith.org/], taking place August 7–8, 2026 in Indianapolis, IN, and online. 📍Dates: August 7–8, 2026📍In-Person Location: Falam Baptist Church of Indiana in Indianapolis, IN📍Virtual Attendance: Airmeet Glossary * Burmese Diaspora: Refers to the population of people from Myanmar (Burma) living outside their home country, often due to political or economic reasons. * Diasporic Christianity: The practice of the Christian faith as it is adapted and transformed by immigrant communities living in a new cultural context. * Pew Research Center [https://www.pewresearch.org/]: A non-partisan “fact tank” often cited for religious demographics in the US, as the official Census does not track religion. * USCCB [https://www.usccb.org/] (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops): The source for the estimate of 3 million Asian Catholics currently living in the United States. Discussion Questions * Why is “counting” a community so important for its visibility and support in a new country? * The transcript mentions that 34% of Asian Americans are Christian. Does this number surprise you? Why or why not? * What are some specific cultural “pearls” from your own heritage that you would want to preserve if you moved to a different continent? * How does the lack of religious data in the US Census affect how churches serve immigrant populations? * What does “adaptation” look like to you? Is it possible to adapt without losing your original identity? Fr. Joe Cheah, OSM, is Professor and Chair in Philosophy, Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Saint Joseph in West Hartford, Connecticut. As a part of the first wave of immigrants from Burma, he came to the United States with his parents in 1966. He co-sponsors the St. Mary’s Home in Kyauktan, Myanmar. All donations and inquiries go through our 501(c)(3) organization in the US: The Children Charitable Foundation of Myanmar, Inc. (childrenofmyanmar.org [https://childrenofmyanmar.org/]) Joe has published extensively, including Race and Religion in American Buddhism: White Supremacy and Immigrant Adaptation (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011), Theological Reflections on “Gangnam Style”: A Racial, Sexual, and Cultural Critique (New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2014) with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, and Anti-Asian Racism: Myths, Stereotypes, and Catholic Social Teaching (New York: Orbis Books, 2023). Joe can be reached at jcheah@usj.edu. Dr. David Thang Moe [https://macmillan.yale.edu/southeast-asia/person/david-thang-moe] is at Yale University in New Haven, CT. where he is a Postdoctoral Associate and Lecturer in Religion and Conflict at the Council on Southeast Asia Studies at MacMillan Center for International and Area Studies and Department of Religious Studies. He can be reached on Facebook at facebook.com/davidmoe83 [https://www.facebook.com/davidmoe83]. For more about Burmese American Christians, see David Thang Moe, “The Hidden Stories of Burmese American Christians: Understanding their Imagination of Identity,” International Bulletin of Mission Research 2024, Vol. 48(3), 383­ –398. This podcast series is funded by the APARRI [https://aparri.org/] Working Grant and the American Baptist Home Mission Societies [https://abhms.org/]. Thanks for reading Pearl Dive, AACHI’s digital platform! This post is public so feel free to share it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fulleraachi.substack.com [https://fulleraachi.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

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39 episodes

episode 06. Beyond the Golden Pagoda artwork

06. Beyond the Golden Pagoda

Welcome to episode 6 of our series discussing the history of Burmese American Christianity (Pearl Dive episode 225)! This series is part of Fuller AACHI’s Burma Diaspora Christianity Project led by Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe. What happens when a deep-rooted faith travels thousands of miles to a new home? In this episode of Pearl Dive, we venture into the heart of the Burmese Diasporic Christianity project. Host Tim Tseng sits down with scholars Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Mo to uncover the “priceless pearls” of a community often left out of the mainstream narrative. We explore the initial hurdles of arrival and the complex numbers behind a growing population that the US Census doesn’t quite know how to count. This isn’t just a history lesson; it’s a look at the grit and grace required for adaptation. We dive into how Burmese Catholics and Protestants are navigating the tension between their ancestral traditions and the American religious landscape. From the staggering estimates of 3 million Asian Catholics in the US to the specific struggles of the Burmese diaspora, this conversation reveals how a community maintains its soul while building a future in the West. Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges You are warmly invited to attend the 2026 Our Story, Our Faith (OSOF) Conference: Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges [https://ourstoriesourfaith.org/], taking place August 7–8, 2026 in Indianapolis, IN, and online. 📍Dates: August 7–8, 2026📍In-Person Location: Falam Baptist Church of Indiana in Indianapolis, IN📍Virtual Attendance: Airmeet Glossary * Burmese Diaspora: Refers to the population of people from Myanmar (Burma) living outside their home country, often due to political or economic reasons. * Diasporic Christianity: The practice of the Christian faith as it is adapted and transformed by immigrant communities living in a new cultural context. * Pew Research Center [https://www.pewresearch.org/]: A non-partisan “fact tank” often cited for religious demographics in the US, as the official Census does not track religion. * USCCB [https://www.usccb.org/] (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops): The source for the estimate of 3 million Asian Catholics currently living in the United States. Discussion Questions * Why is “counting” a community so important for its visibility and support in a new country? * The transcript mentions that 34% of Asian Americans are Christian. Does this number surprise you? Why or why not? * What are some specific cultural “pearls” from your own heritage that you would want to preserve if you moved to a different continent? * How does the lack of religious data in the US Census affect how churches serve immigrant populations? * What does “adaptation” look like to you? Is it possible to adapt without losing your original identity? Fr. Joe Cheah, OSM, is Professor and Chair in Philosophy, Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Saint Joseph in West Hartford, Connecticut. As a part of the first wave of immigrants from Burma, he came to the United States with his parents in 1966. He co-sponsors the St. Mary’s Home in Kyauktan, Myanmar. All donations and inquiries go through our 501(c)(3) organization in the US: The Children Charitable Foundation of Myanmar, Inc. (childrenofmyanmar.org [https://childrenofmyanmar.org/]) Joe has published extensively, including Race and Religion in American Buddhism: White Supremacy and Immigrant Adaptation (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011), Theological Reflections on “Gangnam Style”: A Racial, Sexual, and Cultural Critique (New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2014) with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, and Anti-Asian Racism: Myths, Stereotypes, and Catholic Social Teaching (New York: Orbis Books, 2023). Joe can be reached at jcheah@usj.edu. Dr. David Thang Moe [https://macmillan.yale.edu/southeast-asia/person/david-thang-moe] is at Yale University in New Haven, CT. where he is a Postdoctoral Associate and Lecturer in Religion and Conflict at the Council on Southeast Asia Studies at MacMillan Center for International and Area Studies and Department of Religious Studies. He can be reached on Facebook at facebook.com/davidmoe83 [https://www.facebook.com/davidmoe83]. For more about Burmese American Christians, see David Thang Moe, “The Hidden Stories of Burmese American Christians: Understanding their Imagination of Identity,” International Bulletin of Mission Research 2024, Vol. 48(3), 383­ –398. This podcast series is funded by the APARRI [https://aparri.org/] Working Grant and the American Baptist Home Mission Societies [https://abhms.org/]. Thanks for reading Pearl Dive, AACHI’s digital platform! This post is public so feel free to share it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fulleraachi.substack.com [https://fulleraachi.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Yesterday32 min
episode 05. Waves of Resilience artwork

05. Waves of Resilience

Welcome to episode 5 of our series discussing the history of Burmese American Christianity (Pearl Dive episode 224)! This series is part of Fuller AACHI’s Burma Diaspora Christianity Project led by Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe. In this episode, project leaders Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe chart the fascinating and complex history of Burmese immigration to the United States. Together, they break down the migration story into three distinct, powerful waves shaped by both sudden crises and global opportunities: * The First Wave (1950s–1960s): A small, highly educated group of students, professionals, and diplomats arriving post-independence, heavily accelerated by the 1962 military coup and the 1967 anti-Chinese riots. * The Second Wave (1980s–2000s): A massive wave of humanitarian displacement triggered by the 1988 nationwide democratic uprising, pushing political dissidents and activists to seek asylum. * The Third Wave (2000s–Present): The largest influx to date, primarily composed of ethnic minority Christian communities (such as the Chin, Karen, and Kachin) fleeing severe religious persecution and ethnic discrimination. Drs. Cheah and Moe explore how these shifting demographics completely revolutionized the landscape of Burmese American faith life. They discuss the unique infrastructure built by early arrivals to welcome refugees, the structural and linguistic shift from multi-ethnic congregations to separate tribal churches, and the delicate “middle way” the second generation navigates while growing up between two cultural worlds. Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges You are warmly invited to attend the 2026 Our Story, Our Faith (OSOF) Conference: Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges [https://ourstoriesourfaith.org/], taking place August 7–8, 2026 in Indianapolis, IN, and online. 📍Dates: August 7–8, 2026📍In-Person Location: Falam Baptist Church of Indiana in Indianapolis, IN📍Virtual Attendance: Airmeet Glossary * Sino-Burmese: Individuals of Chinese descent born or living in Burma (Myanmar). Many fled to Western countries like the U.S. in the wake of the state-stoked anti-Chinese riots of 1967. * 1988 Nationwide Uprising (8888 Uprising): A historic, student-led democracy movement in Burma protesting military rule. The government’s violent suppression resulted in thousands of deaths and forced a major wave of activists and ethnic minorities to flee the country. * UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees): The UN refugee agency. Based significantly out of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for Southeast Asian processing, it served as the vital pipeline allowing thousands of ethnic minority Burmese to safely resettle in the U.S., Canada, and Australia. * USA PATRIOT Act Waivers (2006): Legislative modifications enacted under the Bush administration that lifted strict material-support bars, effectively opening the doors for thousands of displaced Karen and Kachin refugees to legally enter the United States. * “Chindiana”: A cultural portmanteau and nickname for the state of Indiana—specifically around Indianapolis—which has become the primary cultural and geographical hub for the Chin ethnic minority Christian community in the United States. Discussion Questions * The Evolution of Church as a Cultural Hub: Dr. David Moe points out that when ethnic minority refugees first arrived, they initially worshiped together under broad “Myanmar Christian Communities,” but eventually fractured into distinct tribal and ethnic churches rather than along doctrinal lines. What does this tell us about the dual role of the immigrant church as both a religious space and a survival mechanism for ethnic preservation? How should Christian communities balance Jesus’ prayer for theological unity with the practical human need for cultural comfort? * The “Inter-Generational Middle Way”: The podcast highlights a classic tension for the second generation of Burmese Americans navigating “two cultural worlds,” specifically regarding language preferences between older and younger generations. What are some practical ways immigrant faith communities can cultivate a healthy “middle way” that respects ancestral heritage without isolating youth who primarily speak English? * Crisis vs. Opportunity in Migration Historiography: Dr. Joseph Cheah notes that understanding these three waves helps us see how migration is fundamentally shaped by either opportunity (like educational exchange) or crisis (like ethnic and political violence). How does recognizing whether a community arrived as voluntary professionals versus traumatized refugees change the way local churches and social organizations should approach hospitality, infrastructure, and counseling? Fr. Joe Cheah, OSM, is Professor and Chair in Philosophy, Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Saint Joseph in West Hartford, Connecticut. As a part of the first wave of immigrants from Burma, he came to the United States with his parents in 1966. He co-sponsors the St. Mary’s Home in Kyauktan, Myanmar. All donations and inquiries go through our 501(c)(3) organization in the US: The Children Charitable Foundation of Myanmar, Inc. (childrenofmyanmar.org [https://childrenofmyanmar.org/]) Joe has published extensively, including Race and Religion in American Buddhism: White Supremacy and Immigrant Adaptation (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011), Theological Reflections on “Gangnam Style”: A Racial, Sexual, and Cultural Critique (New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2014) with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, and Anti-Asian Racism: Myths, Stereotypes, and Catholic Social Teaching (New York: Orbis Books, 2023). Joe can be reached at jcheah@usj.edu. Dr. David Thang Moe [https://macmillan.yale.edu/southeast-asia/person/david-thang-moe] is at Yale University in New Haven, CT. where he is a Postdoctoral Associate and Lecturer in Religion and Conflict at the Council on Southeast Asia Studies at MacMillan Center for International and Area Studies and Department of Religious Studies. He can be reached on Facebook at facebook.com/davidmoe83 [https://www.facebook.com/davidmoe83]. For more about Burmese American Christians, see David Thang Moe, “The Hidden Stories of Burmese American Christians: Understanding their Imagination of Identity,” International Bulletin of Mission Research 2024, Vol. 48(3), 383­ –398. This podcast series is funded by the APARRI [https://aparri.org/] Working Grant and the American Baptist Home Mission Societies [https://abhms.org/]. Thanks for reading Pearl Dive, AACHI’s digital platform! This post is public so feel free to share it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fulleraachi.substack.com [https://fulleraachi.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

4. juni 202631 min
episode 04. The Cross and the Crown: Adoniram Judson’s Legacy in Myanmar artwork

04. The Cross and the Crown: Adoniram Judson’s Legacy in Myanmar

Welcome to episode 4 of our series discussing the history of Burmese American Christianity (Pearl Dive episode 223)! This series is part of Fuller AACHI’s Burma Diaspora Christianity Project led by Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe. In this episode, David Moe joins the podcast to delve into the complex historical and spiritual legacy of Adoniram Judson, a foundational figure in 19th-century Protestant missions. Despite facing immense personal tragedy and initial setbacks, Judson’s work profoundly shaped the trajectory of Burmese Christianity. The conversation moves beyond simple biography to examine the cultural and religious implications of his mission, specifically looking at how different ethnic groups in Myanmar received—and sometimes resisted—Western missionary efforts. The discussion then bridges the gap between history and the present day by focusing on the contemporary Burmese Christian diaspora. By connecting Judson’s historical missions to modern-day theological challenges, the episode emphasizes the need for a balanced perspective on missionary history, acknowledging both its enduring contributions and its inherent limitations. References * Moe, David Thang. “Adoniram Judson: A Dialectical Missionary Who Brought the Gospel (Not God) and Gave the Bible to the Burmese.” Missiology: An International Review, vol. 45, no. 3, 2017, pp. 265–282. https://doi.org/10.1177/0091829617701085 [https://doi.org/10.1177/0091829617701085] * Judson Heritage Center [https://www.judsonheritage.org/]. The Adoniram Judson Heritage Foundation (AJHF) preserves Judson’s legacy and mission history. In 2024, it purchased his childhood home in Malden, Massachusetts, now being restored as a museum and educational center. Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges You are warmly invited to attend the 2026 Our Story, Our Faith (OSOF) Conference: Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges [https://ourstoriesourfaith.org/], taking place August 7–8, 2026 in Indianapolis, IN, and online. 📍Dates: August 7–8, 2026📍In-Person Location: Falam Baptist Church of Indiana in Indianapolis, IN📍Virtual Attendance: Airmeet Glossary * Adoniram Judson: An American Congregationalist and later Baptist missionary who served in Myanmar (Burma) for nearly 40 years during the early 1800s. * Diaspora: A scattered population whose origin lies in a separate geographic locale; in this context, Burmese Christians living outside of Myanmar. * Historical Theology of Missions: The study of the history of Christian missions and how past missionary strategies and beliefs influence modern religious practice and thought. Discussion Questions * How can modern Christians maintain a “balanced view” of 19th-century missionaries like Adoniram Judson, honoring their sacrifices while critically examining their cultural impact? * In what ways do the unique cultural identities of different ethnic groups in Myanmar continue to influence how Christianity is practiced and perceived in the region today? * Why is it vital for diaspora communities to host events like the “Our Stories, Our Faith” conference to preserve their heritage and address contemporary theological needs? Dr. David Thang Moe [https://macmillan.yale.edu/southeast-asia/person/david-thang-moe] is at Yale University in New Haven, CT. where he is a Postdoctoral Associate and Lecturer in Religion and Conflict at the Council on Southeast Asia Studies at MacMillan Center for International and Area Studies and Department of Religious Studies. He can be reached on Facebook at facebook.com/davidmoe83 [https://www.facebook.com/davidmoe83]. For more about Burmese American Christians, see David Thang Moe, “The Hidden Stories of Burmese American Christians: Understanding their Imagination of Identity,” International Bulletin of Mission Research 2024, Vol. 48(3), 383­ –398. This podcast series is funded by the APARRI [https://aparri.org/] Working Grant and the American Baptist Home Mission Societies [https://abhms.org/]. Thanks for reading Pearl Dive, AACHI’s digital platform! This post is public so feel free to share it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fulleraachi.substack.com [https://fulleraachi.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

28. maj 202637 min
episode 03. Faith in the Golden Land artwork

03. Faith in the Golden Land

Welcome to episode 3 of our series discussing the history of Burmese Christianity (Pearl Dive episode 222)! This series is part of Fuller AACHI’s Burma Diaspora Christianity Project led by Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe. This episode explores the transformative history of Catholic missions in Burma (Myanmar), tracing a timeline that begins with 16th-century Portuguese traders and Jesuit missionaries. Dr. Joseph Cheah, details how the mission evolved from early outposts under Portuguese patronage to a papal-controlled entity in the 18th century. Despite facing significant challenges from a strong Buddhist monarchy and early political suspicion, the Catholic Church eventually found its footing among ethnic minorities and through the resilience of local leaders. The discussion highlights pivotal figures and milestones that shaped the modern Burmese church, including the martyrdom of catechist Isidore Nicola during World War II and the landmark 2015 appointment of Cardinal Charles Maung Bo. Listeners will gain insight into how a foreign missionary presence successfully transitioned into a locally-rooted church. Today, while Catholics comprise approximately 1–2% of the population, the faith remains a vibrant and integral part of the nation’s diverse religious landscape. Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges You are warmly invited to attend the 2026 Our Story, Our Faith (OSOF) Conference: Burma Christian Diaspora in Indianapolis: Celebrating Our Stories, Embracing Our Challenges [https://ourstoriesourfaith.org/], taking place August 7–8, 2026 in Indianapolis, IN, and online. 📍Dates: August 7–8, 2026📍In-Person Location: Falam Baptist Church of Indiana in Indianapolis, IN📍Virtual Attendance: Airmeet Glossary * Theravada Buddhism: The dominant branch of Buddhism in Myanmar, firmly established by King Anawrahta, which presented an early cultural challenge for Christian missionaries. * Portuguese Patronage (Padroado): A system where the Portuguese Crown managed ecclesiastical affairs in its colonies and trade routes before control shifted to the papacy. * Catechist: A person, such as Isidore Nicola, who teaches the principles of Christian dogma, often serving as a vital link between the clergy and local communities. Discussion Questions * How did the shift from Portuguese patronage to papal control in the 18th century change the trajectory and local perception of Catholic missions? * In what ways did the “locally-rooted” nature of the church help it survive periods of political unrest and the challenges of World War II? * Given that Catholics make up a small minority (1–2%) of the population, what role does Cardinal Charles Maung Bo’s appointment play in the identity of modern Burmese Catholics? Fr. Joe Cheah, OSM, is Professor and Chair in Philosophy, Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Saint Joseph in West Hartford, Connecticut. As a part of the first wave of immigrants from Burma, he came to the United States with his parents in 1966. He co-sponsors the St. Mary’s Home in Kyauktan, Myanmar. All donations and inquiries go through our 501(c)(3) organization in the US: The Children Charitable Foundation of Myanmar, Inc. (childrenofmyanmar.org [https://childrenofmyanmar.org/]) Joe has published extensively, including Race and Religion in American Buddhism: White Supremacy and Immigrant Adaptation (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011), Theological Reflections on “Gangnam Style”: A Racial, Sexual, and Cultural Critique (New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2014) with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, and Anti-Asian Racism: Myths, Stereotypes, and Catholic Social Teaching (New York: Orbis Books, 2023). Joe can be reached at jcheah@usj.edu. This podcast series is funded by the APARRI [https://aparri.org/] Working Grant and the American Baptist Home Mission Societies [https://abhms.org/]. Thanks for reading Pearl Dive, AACHI’s digital platform! This post is public so feel free to share it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fulleraachi.substack.com [https://fulleraachi.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

21. maj 202630 min
episode 02. Where Spirits Meet the Cross artwork

02. Where Spirits Meet the Cross

Welcome to episode two of our series discussing the history of Burmese Christianity (Pearl Dive episode 221)! This series is part of Fuller’s Burma Diaspora Christianity Project led by Dr. Joseph Cheah and Dr. David Moe. Before the cross or the pagoda ever touched the soil of Burma, the land was alive with the whispers of the Nat. In this episode of Pearl Dive, we travel into the heart of the Burma Diaspora Christianity project. Hosts Tim Tseng, Dr. Joseph Cheah, and Dr. David Moe peel back the layers of history to reveal how ancient folk traditions — centered on powerful spirits and sacred landscapes — continue to pulse beneath the surface of modern Burmese American faith. It’s a journey that challenges everything you thought you knew about where “tradition” ends and “religion” begins. We aren’t just talking history; we’re talking identity. By integrating the lived narratives of the Burmese diaspora, this episode uncovers how pre-Buddhist folk religions were never truly erased but were instead woven into the very fabric of Christian life. Whether you’re interested in Asian American theology or the mysterious intersection of unseen forces and organized faith, this conversation offers a priceless pearl of wisdom for a global audience. Get ready to explore the spiritual geography of a people whose faith is as deep and complex as the land they call home. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fulleraachi.substack.com [https://fulleraachi.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

14. maj 202620 min