Remarkable World Commentary Episode #95: Ask Advocate Donna

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #96: Interview with Gail Sinclair, Retired Lawyer, Department of Justice, Government of Canada

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #96: Interview with Gail Sinclair, Retired Lawyer, Department of Justice, Government of Canada https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-06-25-2026/ [https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-06-25-2026/] In this illuminating episode of Remarkable World Commentary, host Donna Jodhan sits down with Gail Sinclair, a lawyer who recently retired after more than three decades with the Department of Justice, and who years earlier was lead counsel for the Government of Canada on the opposite side of Donna's landmark accessibility case. Gail traces her path into law (a large, rule-bound family; a degree in both civil and common law, in both French and English) and her career representing the public interest on constitutional questions, from the same-sex marriage reference to electoral and democratic rights. The heart of the conversation is Jodhan v. Canada, the case that forced the federal government to make its websites accessible, told from her vantage as opposing counsel: Justice Kelen's Federal Court ruling, the 15-month suspended declaration, the appeal written by Justice Nadon, and the harder constitutional question the case ultimately turned on (whether a trial judge may keep supervisory jurisdiction over a Charter remedy once it is under appeal, a point on which Canada prevailed, echoing Doucet-Boudreau). They also revisit Donna's later ArriveCAN human-rights complaint, the role of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, memorable courtroom moments and expert witnesses (Cynthia Waddell and Jutta Treviranus), and the line Gail draws from Donna's case to the Accessible Canada Act. She closes with advice for anyone weighing whether to stand up for their rights: be brave, get educated, and prevail. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna Jodhan: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, an author, and a lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just [sighted?] ones. In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups, to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom, a committee room, or a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping to teach companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal: to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experiences sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest — a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased, and I am privileged, and I am honored to welcome Gail Sinclair to our podcast. Welcome, Gail. Gail Sinclair: Thank you, Donna. Donna Jodhan: So we are going to discuss your remarkable journey. And we're going to start. Gail, welcome to our World Commentary. Before we get to the case that first brought us together, I want our listeners to know you. You retired this past December after more than three decades with the Department of Justice. What first drew you to the law? Gail Sinclair: Good question, Donna. I grew up in a large, boisterous family where there were a lot of rules. My dad was a hero, but he'd drop bombs on Germany in World War Two, so there tended to be very firmly enforced rules. And as a middle child, as a girl, I wasn't always convinced that the rules were applied fairly or evenly. And so I wanted to go to law school to learn about rules and how they should be applied. Donna Jodhan: My goodness, I can understand that, because I too wanted to be a lawyer when I was growing up. But Dad thought that the courtroom was only for [men?], and so I did not belong there. But this being said, let's go to our next question. You earned a law degree in both civil law and common law, and you worked in both English and French. You even began in French language and literature. How did this bilingual, two-legal-traditions foundation shape the lawyer that you became? Gail Sinclair: I think learning the traditions of Canada's two legal systems and our two official languages taught me that there are more than one way to solve a problem, and they're all viable and worth exploring. And we have a fascinating country made up of different traditions, and it behooves us to know them and to apply them. Donna Jodhan: Well, that is quite a feat in both languages. Oh my goodness, I didn't know this about you until now. Gail Sinclair: Well, I remember doing my civil law degree at Université de Montréal, which came after my common law degree. They said to me, 'Well, you can write your exams in English.' And I thought, how silly is that? You study exclusively in the French language. In French, [it] is not a mortgage in English; it's a different legal system. So to say to us that, for exams, you could write in English — I thought that was a misapprehension. The journey that you take, you are completely immersed in one world from another, and then you get to have this continual conversation with yourself, and with some professors who are interested in comparative law: 'Oh, that's so interesting that civil law does it this way, and common law does it this way.' Donna Jodhan: Oh my goodness. Now, you spent a career representing the public interest on some of the hardest constitutional questions that this country has faced. What did that work mean to you? Gail Sinclair: It was a tremendous honor. It was fascinating. It schooled me in what I refer to as the quintessential Canadian compromise. Canada is an extraordinary country, and still an extraordinary possibility. But we have so many people within, and we have our two legal traditions, our official languages, and then we have our Indigenous languages. We have people from all around the world. And to blend that in terms of the public interest was a tremendous honor. I think in a different life, I might have wanted to run as a member of Parliament. A lot of my work was about section three, the right to vote, and to be involved in these fundamental democracy issues in the first 30 years of the Charter was just fascinating — probing work about representation and democracy. And as we all know, democracy is more at risk in the Western world than it has been in many a year. And so it was just a fascinating journey, and an honor to represent the Attorney General of Canada — which is to represent, for the courts, that balance between individual rights and what section one demands of us, which is effectively bringing to bear the interest other than the individual who is challenging the law or a policy. Donna Jodhan: I think it's so very interesting for me personally to hear you talk about this, because you don't really have the opportunity to ask too many lawyers these questions. So I do want to thank you for this, and I think it's great. Gail Sinclair: I'll just add one of the cases that I was involved in, from literally the Friday afternoon when it came in the door — I was acting as a manager at the time — was the litigation challenging the opposite-sex nature of marriage. And so I was involved in that case probably, I'm guessing, seven years, until the Ontario Court of Appeal — the second appellate court, third appellate court — rendered a decision saying opposite-sex marriage is unconstitutional. It's judge-made law, and so we change it now. And a same-sex marriage was conducted on the lawn of Osgoode Hall that afternoon. The government went through a fascinating process of deciding how to respond to this. The B.C. Court of Appeal had rendered its judgment but suspended the declaration, and I think Quebec had done so, or shortly thereafter. The Ontario Court of Appeal spoke, and the government decided that they wanted to accept these judgments of three of Canada's appellate courts. They were concerned about whether they could enact legislation to change the definition of marriage and get it through the Parliament of Canada. And so they took a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. And that journey was an absolutely fascinating journey. I, with my colleague Michael Moore, have written an article about the history of the reference — a good publication paying tribute to Peter Hogg, because he was our ultimate lead counsel. And it was just a fascinating journey. I saw some of my colleagues who I worked with, who were visible minorities, who had immigrated to Canada and were in same-sex relationships. And it was only when Canada opened up marriage to same-sex couples that their parents accepted them in their love relationships. And that was very moving to me to see, from the perspective of those parents looking to belong in Canada: when Canada said these couples belong, the parents accepted their children's orientation. Donna Jodhan: Wow. Okay, very interesting. Now I'd like to turn to how we met — on opposite sides of the courtroom. Here is what makes this day so very special for me. We first met because you were lead counsel for the Government of Canada, and I was the woman suing it over websites that I could not use. For listeners who do not know the story, how would you describe that case from where you were sitting? And you can do so at any comfort level that you wish to. Gail Sinclair: Yes, I'm happy to describe it. The case is Donna Jodhan versus the Attorney General of Canada, and it proceeded in Federal Court. Donna had challenged, effectively, two websites and the standards — the Common Look and Feel standards — that Canada had at the time for departments and government institutions to respect, to ensure web accessibility for the visually impaired. Donna applied for a job — and I believe it was with Statistics Canada, through the Public Service Commission — and she found barriers on their websites. And so she started a Charter challenge on the premise that these websites were not accessible to her as a visually impaired person, pursuant to section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms — the document that promises equality, equality on what we refer to as a number of enumerated grounds specifically stated, and then analogous grounds that have unfolded since the words were in the document in 1982. And so the ground was disability. And so our job in responding to this challenge was to find out where the Government of Canada was in terms of web accessibility, and to have a hard look at these two websites, and then in turn Treasury Board's standards at the time, which were the Common Look and Feel standards — standards which were informed by the web accessibility guidelines, I think 1.0 at the time, which had been promulgated worldwide. And what a journey it was. What a learning curve. It was a case in which Donna prevailed. The Federal Court, years down the road, not only issued a declaration of unconstitutionality with regard to these websites at the time, but the court issued a declaration that websites well beyond those that were at issue were also inaccessible to a visually impaired person. And all of a sudden, the case — by virtue of that judgment at first instance — became that much bigger, because we had represented and had worked closely with Statistics Canada, the Public Service Commission of Canada, and Treasury Board of Canada. And all of a sudden we were now representing at least 100 different government departments and institutions. And there was quite a hoopla, because — you smile — we cannot represent some of those entities, because they have independence from the government. And so one of the first things we had to do when the judgment was rendered was to ask the court to correct that, and only have us, in effect, represent those that we were entitled to represent. And so we had to get that corrected. But the case, by virtue of that judgment, had an implication far beyond the few websites and the few departments or government institutions at issue. Donna Jodhan: You know, I will admit that when I first met David Baker, who was my lawyer facing off against you, I had no clue what the heck I was getting into. And even sitting here now, I say to myself, what did I do, and why? I still can't catch myself at times. But it's over now. And at least we got to meet each other. Gail Sinclair: And I am sure — I know — that your case, your bravery, your persistence made a huge difference. And I hasten to add, I think on at least two occasions, opposing counsel who have a law degree and are engaged in law but are not necessarily litigators represented individuals, and I was opposing counsel, and they said to me at the end of first instance, 'We didn't know what we were getting into, and what a journey — but you were very helpful in that journey.' And that's part of the role of counsel for the Attorney General of Canada. Of course, you're in opposition, you're defending the public interest, but at all times you're representing Canada. And for these individuals who are taking on these challenges, you want them to feel they have the right to do this, and to facilitate, when appropriate, how to do so. So it's not just the individuals taking on the Charter who can feel intimidated by the system. But let me hasten to assure you, I have had opposing counsel tell me the same thing. Donna Jodhan: Now, we actually faced off more than once. There is also my human rights complaint involving the Canada Border Services Agency. What's it like to be on the opposing side of someone who becomes a friend? Gail Sinclair: Well, I'm honored that you refer to me that way, Donna. When that Canadian human rights complaint came in, my managers made the link with Donna Jodhan and asked me if I would take it on, and I readily said yes. And I said yes for a number of reasons. One: the complaint, as you'll recall, was against Canadian Border Services Agency and Public Health Agency of Canada, because they co-developed — well, what was the name of the— Donna Jodhan: The ArriveCAN app. Gail Sinclair: Right, the ArriveCAN app. Yeah. And they would have developed it toward the end of it being accessible — not only to the visually impaired, but to other communities that face challenges — and they had failed in one aspect. It was accessible in other ways. And so when I saw that, I thought, I know Donna; it's unfortunate that this happened. I know so much about web accessibility — I know less about the accessibility statute that had been enacted by the Parliament of Canada since then — and I thought it was an opportunity. There would be efficiency, because of everything that I had learned about web accessibility. And the purpose of the Canadian Human Rights Act, different than some statutes that govern litigation, is really to resolve matters without the need for litigation. So I thought it was a good fit. And, as you know, we prepared for a mediation, everybody brought their best selves to bear, and we were able to solve it that day — and, of course, with our follow-up. And I was delighted, and I found it very salutary. And I hope that was your experience as well. Donna Jodhan: Yes. And was there ever anything personally hard about defending the government in a case like mine? Or was it simply the job? Share only what you're comfortable with. Gail Sinclair: It's never just the job. Many of us at the Department of Justice feel it's a higher calling, because we are representing the public interest. It's a pleasure being opposite someone that you respect, and you have seen their courage in taking on a challenge. It's not difficult, because it enabled me to work with Canadian Border Services Agency and the Public Health Agency of Canada to identify what was inaccessible, what was accessible, to cajole, encourage, move things forward, and to come up with more modalities for settlement that enabled them to do what, in an ideal world, they would have done — such that there might not have been any reason for a Canadian human rights complaint. Donna Jodhan: Now, looking back, what did you learn in responding to my Charter challenge? Gail Sinclair: I learned some fascinating things, I would suggest. First and foremost, how incredibly empowering the internet is for the visually impaired — as long as there are no barriers. And in order to obviate creating barriers, you have to think about accessibility from the get-go. Retrofit is harder and more expensive. And so there was a huge journey from the beginning, but especially after Justice Kelen of the Federal Court issued his judgment, with the declaration that went well beyond the three departments or government institutions that had been named in the originating process. There was a huge endeavor to make Canada's websites accessible, to overcome the barriers, and to provide supports to departments of tremendously different sizes. Imagine the difference between Global Affairs Canada and a small entity like the Lobbying Commissioner. So tremendous resources were put in place. There was cajoling, and carrots and sticks, but we were trying to ensure that huge improvements were made by the time 15 months from the release of the judgment had lapsed — because Justice Kelen did something quite unusual with his declaration: he issued it and suspended it for 15 months. And during that 15 months, Canada had to make huge improvements to web accessibility, or then his judgment was that he would start to exercise power to hold the government to account. And this raised huge issues well beyond web accessibility and its importance for the visually impaired. This raises huge issues about the three branches of government — the executive, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch. When a judge renders a decision at first instance, he's what we call functus officio, which just means he's done his job. It's over. The Government of Canada, the Attorney General of Canada, had appealed Donna Jodhan's decision. And the greater importance of the decision was whether it was appropriate for a judge at first instance to maintain a supervisory jurisdiction over the implementation of the remedy, especially when it had been appealed to the higher level. And at that point, by the time the 15 months had lapsed, the matter had been heard by the Federal Court of Appeal. So it was in the hands of Justice Kelen's court. And could he exercise the jurisdiction he was purporting to have, when the matter was now in the hands of his higher brethren? And so this was the complexity of the issue at the higher level. Of course, web accessibility was there — whether there was a section 15 Charter breach for these three websites, or websites that were not at issue — and, as I said, the bigger issue became the maintaining of a supervisory jurisdiction over implementation of the remedy when the matter had been appealed. Donna Jodhan: Wow. Gail Sinclair: I hope that was clear. It's a little tricky. We refer to ourselves sometimes as Charter geeks. But it was: can you be in two places, and accountable to two entities, at the same time? And what issues that raises for the rule of law? Donna Jodhan: Now, this case stretched over seven years. What changed in that time — in the law, in the technology, or in how people understood the issue? Gail Sinclair: There was a tremendous focus on web accessibility — for the visually impaired, but for other disability communities too — triggered by the judgment rendered at first instance. I worked very closely with a team at Treasury Board to do everything we could to make the websites that we were responsible for far more accessible, and to do it from the get-go, putting resources in place. I think Shared Services was, in part, created as one way to provide resources to all government entities for web accessibility and for other technology purposes. So there was awareness, there was pressure, there were huge improvements. And I think — and I'm not sure, Donna, because it blurs — but I think we went from the world's first set of international standards, what is known by the acronym WCAG 1.0, to WCAG 2.0. And the [unclear], and the technology improved. And so it was a complex matrix of a whole lot of things happening, as we all know, with technology, and raising awareness, and getting people to understand: you build this in from the get-go, you don't wait and then try to retrofit afterwards. Donna Jodhan: During those years, Canada adopted the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. What difference did that make to the litigation? Gail Sinclair: I think the UN adopting the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities was another piece of this matrix of raising awareness. But there was a national advocacy organization for the visually impaired that intervened in the Federal Court of Appeal, just toward the end, raising the UN Convention and that it complemented the section 15 right. And this was fascinating, because it was the only intervener that the Federal Court of Appeal granted a right to intervene, and it was about the UN Convention. The Federal Court of Appeal wanted to know — and I had a very able articling student, or a lawyer in his first year of practice, who researched everything about the UN Convention. And we have colleagues with the Human Rights Law Section in Ottawa who participated in the drafting of the UN Convention. And ultimately we put forward a factum for the Federal Court of Appeal that said: this is a very important document, it's intended to do so many things. The UN Convention did not address web accessibility, because it's intended to apply to so many countries across different socio-economic challenges, and many countries are just not there yet. And so we were able, with what are called the [travaux préparatoires?] — which is background — to understand the rights and what they were intended to mean. We were able to make the case that the Convention wasn't intended to guarantee web accessibility. And this is nowhere in the judgment: the court didn't address the UN Convention, even though they had allowed this intervener to put forward a factum saying it did apply. We put forward our factum, based on this extensive research, saying it's a very important document, but it isn't intended to enhance the right to web accessibility explicitly. And so the Court of Appeal never said anything about it. But this is one of the interesting things about litigation: much can happen, and it ultimately may not have a public emanation. Of course, these two facta were filed, and they're publicly accessible, but they had no emanation in the Federal Court of Appeal's decision. Donna Jodhan: Okay. In your own words, you have said every long case has its memorable moments. Could you name them, and walk us through them? Gail Sinclair: Absolutely. There are three that I thought of. We at the Department of Justice had the pleasure of working with a woman named Cynthia Waddell, who died a few years ago — and so my respect for her is only enhanced, but I speak about somebody who's no longer with us, to use that expression. And, of course, your expert was Jutta Treviranus, who's also highly respected in this field. And, of course, the two women know each other and respect each other. It's interesting: I learned, in working with Cynthia Waddell — who was both very knowledgeable and exceedingly pleasant to work with — that she was hearing impaired. And so that added a complexity for the purpose of her cross-examination. But one of the things we prepared Cynthia about is that she was the head of an organization in the United States, the International Center for Disability Resources on the Internet. And it sounds like a very big organization. We had, of course, provided your side with the financial statements of this organization, and, in a good year, maybe they raised 50,000 USD from their work, raised or earned. And so we prepared Cynthia, saying it may well be that opposing counsel is going to say your organization is threadbare, and you've accepted to be an expert for the Government of Canada because you need to sustain this threadbare organization. And you wouldn't have done it otherwise. And Cynthia, when we raised this with her, she laughed. And then she told us — I'm quite private about it, but [I have?] personal wealth, because I think a grandfather had discovered oil in California, and that had turned out to be one of the oil companies that we all know. And we said, you can be very private about that. And she told us her husband was a minister, and so he wasn't bringing in [much?]. And we had said, are we right that you are the second income in your family, and by virtue of your husband's work you can make the world a better place, but you don't have to worry about how much income you earn for your family? Again, she laughed, and then told us the background of this grandfather. So we talked about how she might respond without divulging this family history. And she thought about it overnight, and when her cross-examination came the next day, the question did come up. And Cynthia had decided that she would speak to this family history, which she did. And it was kind of a funny moment, because I remember David Baker saying, 'Well, that's a horse of a different color.' Donna Jodhan: Oh my gosh. Gail Sinclair: So litigation is fascinating, because it's about people in their complex situations, and what they choose to be forthcoming about when it isn't necessary for them to be forthcoming. So that was one of those moments. Another moment was — and there's no public emanation of this — when we were between first instance and a decision in the Court of Appeal, with that 15 months having lapsed, and with the Government of Canada trying to do everything it could to improve web accessibility, we thought we might have to do a motion going back to the Federal Court — a very delicate motion — to raise with the judge at first instance whether he, in fact, had the authority to seize jurisdiction over implementation of his Charter remedy, when the matter was fully engaged and had been heard by the Court of Appeal. And the second issue that we appealed on was whether the judge at first instance could purport to hold on to jurisdiction over implementation of the remedy. And so we were in a very delicate situation: if the judge at first instance started to exercise that supervisory jurisdiction, we had a motion to question whether he had the authority to do so. And you can imagine the Attorney General of Canada doing a dance between the executive branch and the judicial branch of [unclear] Canada, in the early decades of Charter remedies and how they should function. We never ultimately had to file that motion, because the court at first instance never chose to exercise the jurisdiction that it had purported to have. And the Federal Court of Appeal decision came down, and so that eclipsed everything that was at issue. And I use the verb 'eclipsed' because I no longer use the verb 'trump.' But it is. Donna Jodhan: A lovely— I like that one. Okay. Gail Sinclair: But it's just one of these things — again, there's no public emanation of this process we went through. And it was a fascinating process, and I think the first motion of its kind that we had to draft — and be respectful, because of the three branches of government. It's absolutely foundational for the rule of law that each show respect to the other and stay in their own lane. And so it was a dance of [a motion?] toward that end that never actually had to be served and filed. Donna Jodhan: Okay. Gail Sinclair: The third and final little memorable moment: you may recall, Donna, that there was a judge of the Federal Court of Appeal, Justice Nadon. And he was elevated to the Supreme Court. And then there was a controversy as to whether he met the requirements of being elevated to the Supreme Court, because he needed to be a judge in Quebec for a certain number of years — and he was a judge of the Federal Court of Appeal — and whether that was what was intended by the requirements of the Supreme Court Act. Ultimately, Justice Nadon stepped down when the Supreme Court of Canada rendered its decision. But in the interim, he had been vetted by a committee of the House of Commons as to whether he met the criteria as they were understood at the time. And in terms of his Charter chops, if I may use that colloquial expression, one of the cases he put forward was the Donna Jodhan versus the Attorney General of Canada case at the Federal Court of Appeal, because he had written it, and his colleagues had agreed with his judgment. Donna Jodhan: Where is Justice Nadon today — is he still practicing? Gail Sinclair: He went back to the Federal Court of Appeal. He may well have retired, or be supernumerary now. I know time marches on, and I am sure that he has deserved his retirement, or will soon be retired. Donna Jodhan: It's ticking down. But I'd like to ask this question. You won at trial, and again at the Federal Court of Appeal — but I understand that Canada also won an important point about remedies along the way. Can you help our listeners understand what that was, and why it mattered? Gail Sinclair: Yes, I can. You are absolutely right. The Federal Court of Appeal affirmed that there had been a breach of your section 15 right to equality, by virtue of those websites not being accessible. But in terms of the second issue that the appeal had become about — we had questioned the right of a judge at first instance to maintain supervisory jurisdiction over the implementation of the remedy. And this was a very, very new issue for Canada. There was one Supreme Court decision, in a very different context, in which the court had deliberated on this. And this is a case called Doucet-Boudreau, in Nova Scotia. And it was about French-language education rights, and whether there were enough French-language schools in Nova Scotia at the time. And the court had said no, there weren't. The Attorney General of Nova Scotia had appealed that judgment to the Nova Scotia Court of Appeal, but in the interim, the judge at first instance was holding the government to account for the building of the schools. And ultimately, when this matter got to the Supreme Court of Canada, the Supreme Court of Canada said it's for the courts to issue a judgment, a declaration of a Charter breach; it's up to the executive and the legislative branch to implement the remedy. In Canada, we will make a different choice than they have, to date, in the United States of America: we will not have the judicial branch of government oversee the implementation of a Charter remedy. And that was the second big issue that the case had become about. And on that issue, the Attorney General of Canada prevailed. We won that issue — that the judge at first instance did not have the jurisdiction to maintain a supervisory power over implementation of the remedy after the 15 months had lapsed. I hope that's clear. It's complex. Donna Jodhan: My final question to you is this one. The Accessible Canada Act became law in 2019, a few years after our case. Do you see a line connecting a challenge like mine to the law that we have today? Gail Sinclair: I have no inside knowledge in terms of the legislative thread, but as a Canadian, and as a former Department of Justice lawyer, I clearly see a line. Donna, your case would have raised the profile of web accessibility for the visually impaired. The government is intent that no Canadian be left behind — that the hearing impaired, people with neurodiversity issues, all Canadians should be included. How do we do that? Legislation is always the best way, because that's the Parliament of Canada speaking, and developing plans and targets that must be met, and putting in place resources to help ensure that they can be met, and make Canada a more inclusive country, and be a model for the provinces and for other countries. And so I am sure there is a line. Your case is one of the threads of a tapestry that grows richer and more colorful, and enhances the country that we all want Canada to be. Donna Jodhan: Thank you for saying that. Finally, if someone in our community has the bravery and temerity to stand up for their rights — especially if they were to think of going up against a Canadian government, or our government — what words of advice would you have for us? Gail Sinclair: Do it. Be brave. Canada needs you, too. I hope I can say, on behalf of the Attorney General of Canada, we try to facilitate the journey, because these are important journeys. And I've worked opposite many an individual who has challenged a piece of legislation or a rule. Terri-Jean Bedford was a woman who challenged Canada's Criminal Code provisions against aspects of prostitution. Terri-Jean is a real character, and someone that I learned to admire for her courage, her tenacity. And it's been an honor to see individuals like that. I can say that about Miguel Figueroa, who was then the head of the Communist Party of Canada. He challenged the Canada Elections Act. And what fascinating issues. Canada has one of the best electoral financing systems in the world, and Miguel Figueroa took it on and made our system even better. So be brave, get educated, and prevail. Donna Jodhan: Where can we go to learn more about you, and what you will be doing during your retirement? Gail Sinclair: So far, I have no public persona. In fact, I got off LinkedIn — that's just because I'm recalibrating. I hope to do some writing, in particular on the democracy and representation fronts. And once I put my backside in a chair and start producing, I will get a public persona. But until I match my words with some act, I'm kind of offline. But I hope to earn a public persona once again. Donna Jodhan: I think that would be great, to see you earn it. And if there is ever anything I can do to help in any way, I would be pleased and privileged to do so. Gail Sinclair: Thank you, Donna. It has been a real privilege to participate in your podcast. I've listened to a number of others, and it sounds very worthwhile. I applaud what you're doing. Donna Jodhan: Thank you so much, Gail, for being here today with us. And I will stay in touch with you. Good luck with your retirement — enjoy the rest of the summer. And beware of those seagulls. Gail Sinclair: Hummingbirds. Donna Jodhan: Oh, the hummingbirds. That's right. The hummingbirds. Gail Sinclair: Beware of those sassy hummingbirds. Donna Jodhan: You take care. And thank you very much. Gail Sinclair: Take care to you, too. Okay, bye-bye. Donna Jodhan: Bye-bye, Gail. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you, and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #95: Ask Advocate Donna

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #95: Ask Advocate Donna | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-06-02-2026/ [https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-06-02-2026/] In this instructive episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan presents her recurring "Ask Advocate Donna" segment, opening with two reflective word-game pairings she invites listeners to ponder: defensive versus offensive, and sympathy versus empathy. She resists treating either as an either-or choice, arguing that a seasoned advocate must learn when each posture or response is appropriate rather than committing to one. She frames the whole episode with her guiding ethos, borrowed in spirit from a "let's make it better than possible" sentiment, that advocacy means refusing to settle for merely acceptable outcomes. The heart of the episode is three listener-submitted scenarios, each dissected through the same four-part lens of what advocacy is, who gets involved, why it is necessary, and how to begin. A woman using a wheelchair, Lucy, is turned away from a concert hall officials claim cannot accommodate her; a boy, Hamid, is denied entry to his condo pool because a lifeguard fears being unable to communicate with him in English; and a blind woman is told a call-center job was "just filled," then bluntly informed she could not be hired because of her vision impairment, which Donna labels outright discrimination. For each, she models how the affected person and their allies can challenge the gatekeepers, question officials, and enlist support from advocacy organizations. She closes by inviting listener feedback at donnajodhan@gmail.com. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Greetings, everybody. And I'm Donna J. Jordan, your host for the Remarkable World Commentary, my second podcast for June. My goodness, we are up to June. So this podcast is titled Ask Advocate Donna. It's for the month of June. And what do we have in our bag of tricks for this month for you? I want to start off with this. My favorite quote is this. Speak in such a way that others would want to listen to you and listen in such a way that others would want to speak to you. I truly believe in this quotation. I also have something new to add for you. And it is this. Let's make it better than possible. Let's not just sit there and say it's possible. We got to make it better than possible. And I got this term from former prime minister, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who started his term in office in 2015 with that quote. Let's make it better than possible. So let me start with my favorite word game for your consideration and for your pondering. And it is this defensive or offensive. So many times in an advocate's career or in an advocate's journey, they're faced with these two terms, they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Okay. Defensive or offensive? Which is it going to be? For me, it is a mixture of both. Learning when to be defensive, learning when to be offensive. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think one can go either way or, you know, be always being defensive or always being offensive. Now there are some advocates who thrive on being offensive, other advocates who feel that it is necessary to be defensive. For me, I think it's a mixture of both knowing when to be defensive, knowing when to be offensive. Okay. Here's another pair of terms for your Consideration, sympathy or empathy. Most people really appreciate when empathy is shown, but in many cases, sympathy is often necessary. Both terms are close in proximity to each other. I believe in both. I believe in showing sympathy as a long time advocate, and I also believe that empathy is necessary as well. Sympathy versus empathy. Which is it going to be? And I think you have to choose the circumstance where you believe that either one is applicable. All right. I'd love to hear your thoughts. So write to me at Donna jordan@gmail.com. That's GODHAN at g mail.com. Let me know what your thoughts are. I would be really interested to know. Okay. All right. Each month I provide you with stories that I have gathered over the years, or people or listeners and readers send it to me and I share these with you. Here's the title to the first story. There was a lady in a wheelchair who was denied entry to a concert. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Lucy had gotten had gotten sorry, dressed up for this concert. She really wanted to go. And when she and her friends got to the hall to hand in their tickets for this anticipated concert, Lucy was told that she could not enter the concert area. When she asked why was she being denied entry to the concert, she was told it was because she was in a wheelchair. Just imagine when her friends started to ask questions. The group was told by officials that the hall could not accommodate anyone in a wheelchair. Just imagine. What would you advise Lucy and her friends to do? I know what I would, but I want to know what you would. Okay, so Lucy is being denied entry to a hall. Concert hall? Because she's in a wheelchair. When her friends ask why, they are told That because the concert hall is not accessible for a person in a wheelchair in these modern days, this is not acceptable in these modern days. This is horrible in these modern days. This is a sad, sad statement for anyone to make. Okay, so what are the points here? The major points. What is advocacy? Advocacy is when something is not right and something needs to be done. And in this case, Lucy being denied entry to the concert hall because it is not set up for a person in a wheelchair and who gets involved in advocacy, Lucy to start with, and then her friends, which is what they did, they started to question the persons at the desk. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The customer reps. The customer agents. Okay. And why is it necessary? Because something is not right to tell a person that you cannot enter a concert hall because it is not set up for a wheelchair or a person in a wheelchair is not right. And how does one get involved in advocacy in this case? Simply look at what Lucy and her friends did. Her friends started to ask questions and challenged, you know, the concert folks, the concert hall officials. That is what advocacy is. That's how you get involved in advocacy. And when do you do that again? When something is not kosher All right. Okay. Let me go to the second story of the month shared with me by another listener. All right. A boy was denied entry to a swimming pool because he did not speak English. This is Canada, remember? And we have always thrived on the reputation that Canada is an open country to any and everyone entering it or living in it. And Hamid was looking forward to swimming in the pool in his condo complex. And when he got to the swimming pool on this very hot summer's day, he was told by the lifeguard that he could not go swimming. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, Hamid's elder brother, Ali, had told the lifeguard that Hamid could not speak English. What would you advise Hamid and Ali to do? You have a younger brother? Hamid doesn't speak English. His older brother Ali telling the lifeguard just that. And now there is trouble brewing ahead. Okay. What Ali did, I think is the right thing. Ali then took his brother back to their condo and told the parents what was going on. Okay. At first the parents said, well, maybe the lifeguard is correct in that, you know, Hamid doesn't speak English and there might be a barrier or a communications problem if Hamid were to get into difficulty while swimming. But his brother Ali was there who spoke perfect English. So this is a very tough call. Is a lifeguard correct? In saying that, Hamid would be denied entry because he didn't speak English? Because they were afraid for their own I wouldn't say their own jobs, but they were afraid that if Hamid got into trouble, they wouldn't know how to communicate with him. And they'd have to depend on Ali to help Hamid. What do you think? Okay. So who gets involved in advocacy if this is pushed? Ali and his parents, because Hamid probably knows what is going on, but cannot advocate on his own for himself because he doesn't speak English. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And why is it necessary? Well, it is necessary if you want to push the case that Hamid is entitled to go swimming, despite the fact that he cannot speak English. So it's going to be a very interesting discussion between Hamid and Ali and their family, their parents and the lifeguard and his supervisors. Because on the one hand, Hamid should be entitled to go swimming. But on the other hand, because he doesn't speak English, as you know, how is the lifeguard or how can the lifeguard communicate with him if something is wrong or they need to tell him something? He would need, he would have second hand a second hand opinion from the lifeguard because they'd have to go through Ali. So it's all a second hand relay to honey from the guards. And is this correct? We don't know. Only fruitful discussion will determine how to get around this. Right. How do you get involved in this type of advocacy? It's really the parents who have to start it with Ali's account. And then they go step by step from there. Really. And when do you get involved in advocacy in this case, if you want to push this matter, if you want to push that, your son Hamid should be given equal access to go swimming. So the parents have to decide what is the best thing to do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So there you have it. Now let's go to the third story of the month, again shared by another listener. There we go. So. A blind lady has refused an interview, and she came to us with this story because she wanted it aired. All right. So. Aaron had sent in her resume in response to a call for resumes from a call center. But. When she showed up for the interview and the interviewer noticed that she was vision impaired. She was told that the job was just filled. When. Aaron was at first very perplexed. The job was just filled. When Aaron asked when exactly was it filled? The interviewer took matters into his own hands and told her that she could not be hired because of her vision impairing impairment. Sorry, what would you advise Aaron to do? I know what I would advise Aaron to do. This is not acceptable. Totally unacceptable for any company to tell a prospective or an interviewee But you cannot be interviewed because of your vision impairment. It is down right discrimination. That's what it is. It's nothing more. It's nothing less. Downright discrimination for any company to tell an interviewee or prospective interviewee that you can't be hired because, or even can't be interviewed because of your vision impairment. No no no no no no no. Not acceptable. So what is advocacy here? Advocacy is advocating for her rights and her rights. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: She's entitled to an interview. She's not entitled to be told that you cannot be interviewed or you cannot be hired because of your vision impairment. That is wrong in this country of Canada and in most developed countries. So who gets involved in advocacy? Aaron to start with, because this directly affects her. She then has to go out there and start the the spade work, the hard work of finding probably agencies of the blind or for the blind get, you know, tell them your story, get on on their case, tell them, not tell them, but seek their not approval, but seek their support in helping you to bring this company to task. And why is it necessary? It's all because Aaron's rights have been downright or blatantly infringed upon. Okay. It's been infringed upon. And like I said, how do you get involved in advocacy? You now have to go out there and attract the attention of others in a meaningful manner. Constructive manner. All right. Again, you get involved in advocacy when because something has not been done properly. Okay. So there you have it. My three stories for the month of June. Please write to me at Donna Jordan. Donnajodhan@gmail.com. Thank you for tuning in to listen to me and have a great rest of the month. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #94: Who is Being Left Behind?

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #94: Who is Being Left Behind? | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-06-01-2026/ [https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-06-01-2026/] In this impassioned episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan turns her attention to a question that recurs throughout the world of advocacy: who is being left behind? She identifies three groups bearing the brunt of rapid technological change, seniors who often cannot afford up-to-date devices or keep pace with shifting tools, persons with disabilities who are shut out by apps and websites built without accessibility features, and the technically challenged who never grew up with technology and now struggle to keep up. Donna argues that inaccessible apps and websites are not a neutral inconvenience but an active form of exclusion, and she presses companies to actually sit down with these communities to understand why they feel left out, reminding her audience that seniors in particular are bread-and-butter consumers too easily ignored. She closes with her monthly highlight of a stressful life circumstance, this month focusing on the experience of losing one's home, whether through financial hardship or conflict with family or friends. Calling a home a person's dynasty, the place where one resides, thinks, feels, and lives, Donna frames its loss as among the most distressing circumstances anyone can face. She invites listeners to share their own perspectives and feedback at donnajodhan@gmail.com. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone and greetings from me. I'm Donna Jordan, your remarkable world commentary person for the month of June. This is my first biweekly podcast for June and I hope that everybody is doing fine. And I'm just so happy that June is finally here so that we could enjoy some wonderful, wonderful weather. So what's on my mind for this month? What am I most interested in talking about or sharing with you? For the month of June. And it's all about this. Who is being left behind. And I really do not think that this is a topic that is new or that is strange to anyone who is in the land of advocacy. I don't. I think it's a topic that we continue to talk about. It's a topic or a subject that we continue to mull over, and we're constantly trying to find solutions to these challenges and these problems. So who's being left behind? In my opinion, seniors. Let's look at why seniors have often been left behind, especially so when technology comes into play. And, you know, most companies, most entities honestly believe that they are using technology to forge ahead to increase their customer base, to increase their revenues because they feel that this is the right thing to do. What they fail to realize, and I apologize if someone thinks that this is a facetious statement to make is that seniors are not always ready, able and willing to grapple with rapidly changing technology. A lot of them can't even afford to have the technical pieces needed, i.e. devices, computers with up to date software. So they are being left behind, and it is becoming more and more of a fight to get companies to understand this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: After all, seniors are our bread and butter consumers. But a lot of people don't realize this or fail to understand or simply ignore. Okay? Or avoid the whole subject altogether. Persons with disabilities is yet another group. How many times have I personally advocated for companies to really sit down with persons with disabilities to understand why. Why they feel that they are being left behind or being left out. Because a lot of the apps that are being developed these days do not contain accessibility features, and persons with disabilities still need to depend on a sighted person or a person with more expertise to help them out. That means that they are being left out and being left behind. Okay, but technically, challenge is yet another group. And who are the technically challenged? The technically challenged are those who did not grow up with technology, who are still struggling to use technology to be able to keep up. Inaccessible apps really play a part in both seniors and technically disabled and persons with disabilities. Not being able to keep up. They're being left behind. They're there being left out. And I know that apps are becoming more and more the way of the world to interact, to purchase, to, to seek information, to do all kinds of things. And it's great, but these groups are being left out. Okay. When inaccessible websites exist and if there's not a good enough reason, and I don't think there is a good enough reason for an inaccessible website, it means, again, that seniors, persons with disabilities and the technically challenged are being left out and are being left behind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That is my rant for today. Okay. This is what I truly believe, and I hope that someone listening is going to give me some feedback. Write to me at Donna jordan@gmail.com. That's donnajodhan@gmail.com. Okay, I look forward to hearing from you. Now, I always promise myself that every month I'll do my best to highlight a story that becomes very stressful for anyone who gets into such a circumstance. And for this month, we're going to talk about when someone loses a home. Okay, it's very stressful for someone to lose her home, whether it's through financial circumstances or an in-fight with the family, or an in-fight with friends or an in-fight with somebody. Losing a home is not an easy thing. It is one of the most stressful circumstances that anyone could ever hope not to get into. Your home is your dynasty. Your home is where you reside. Your home is where you think, where you do, where you feel. And when you lose that home after whether it's just a few years or many years of living there, it is very stressful. So this is one of the stories I just wanted to highlight for this month. Losing a home. I'm Donna J. Jordan, and I do thank you for listening to me for the month of June. My first episode. All right. Being left out. And you have a great week and I'll talk to you again soon. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #93: Interview with Dr. Alan Chase, Director, EyeRetreat.org

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #93: Interview with Dr. Alan Chase, Director, EyeRetreat.org | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-05-21-2026/ [https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-05-21-2026/] In this forward-looking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna welcomes back Dr. Alan Chase [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-alan-chase-7b669536/], founder of the EYE Retreat, a one-week intensive summer program now in its 19th year, hosted at the Governor Morehead School for the Blind in North Carolina, for an update on what's cooking for the 2026 cohort. Alan walks listeners through how a weekend gathering of about 15 students has grown into a packed week-and-a-half program serving roughly 40 students this summer with a waiting list, staffed entirely by volunteers and funded principally by the Lions Club and the Delta Gamma Foundation. He breaks down the camp's two parallel tracks, a college track that takes students from choosing a school, picking a major, and learning self-advocacy through navigating course catalogs, accommodations, and campus resources, to a final personal-roadmap presentation; and an entrepreneurship track that walks students from generating a business idea, through fine-tuning, business-plan development, and a Shark-Tank-style investor pitch by the end of the week, alongside the dorm-suite living arrangement of four students sharing two rooms and one bathroom that doubles as a real-world classroom in communication, scheduling, and social problem-solving. What gives this conversation its larger weight, however, is the through-line of capacity-building. Alan returns repeatedly to the camp's mission of growing the next generation, bringing students back as mentors, then as coordinators responsible for recreation, dorms, and entire tracks, so that leadership skills are forged alongside academic and entrepreneurial ones. Together Donna and Alan name the still-unsolved barriers in the field: the social side of education that academic accommodations alone don't address; the roughly seventy-one-percent unemployment rate among visually impaired adults that Donna cites; the irony that some countries' low official unemployment numbers come from government-set-aside jobs that strip away self-determination; and the rising population of young people with multiple disabilities whose lives are now being saved by medical advances and who deserve every path to independence. Alan closes with his wish that the educational system embrace the whole child, including the nine areas of the Expanded Core Curriculum researchers have identified as essential to independent life, and Donna closes with the news that she will attend the EYE Retreat in person at the end of July for the first time, after participating virtually since 2024. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its website accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law, and most recently, on June 3rd, 2023, I was tremendously humbled by Her Late Majesty. S Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. And when I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a changemaker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased to welcome back Doctor Allen Chase, who was with us last June. Welcome, Doctor Allen. And how are you doing today? Dr. Alan Chase: Well thank you Donna. I am doing I am doing great and thank you for having me back. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh it's my pleasure. I'm dying to know what's cooking in your world. What are you up to? And tell us about what's going on with the camp in July. What are you planning? Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah, well, you know, I think the first and foremost, the the world of disability advocacy is, is ever changing. It's it's never quiet. It's never static. It ebbs. It ebbs and flows. Yes. And that's sort of where I live. I live right in, in the, in the mix of that, where it all intersects. And I think one thing that has always been very, very intriguing to me is how do we build capacity among, you know, our, our students, our young adults. So then they can be the these change makers because eventually people like you and I, you know, we're, we're going to go do other things. We're going to we're going to retire and we're going to enjoy life and. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: We have to build the next generation. And so that's, that's one thing that, that I, I really set out to do. And so you mentioned, and we talked about this last year and, and you, you asked, well, how's the camp coming this year? Well, so, you know, the, the I retreat this is our 19th year. Wow. Yeah. And, you know, I would never have thought 19 years ago when this idea popped into my head. I would never have thought that we would be where, where we are today, where remarkably, we as, as it stands now, the, the demand has been so great. We have a waitlist this year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No way. Dr. Alan Chase: We do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Tell us more. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah, well, we just, we don't have, you know, so we are very, very lucky that, you know, we work collaboratively with the Governor Morehead School for the Blind in North Carolina, and there's only so much space. You know, we the I would love for, for it to be endless opportunity. But you know, the reality is, is that you're, you're only as big as, as your space, you know, allows. So we I think right now we have, we're somewhere in the 40s, we have around 40 or so that are coming and oh yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my lord. Alright. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah. So and, you know, we, we, we always try to change things up. So we have a, a very robust schedule for the coming year to expose people to you know, how to, and, you know, we have the, we have the two, the two tracks. So there's one track for us going to college and learning how to be a college student. And then there's another one for being an entrepreneur because, you know, one thing that we've learned over the years is that, you know, you might have a lot of, you know, academic credentials, you may have a lot of good experience, but there's still a barrier with employability. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah. So sometimes you have to make your own, your own path in life. And that path might be starting your own business. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, indeed. Dr. Alan Chase: Yep. So I think our last year, the last couple of years our entrepreneurship track has been a little larger than our college track. This, this year it's, it's about 5050. Dr. Alan Chase: And, you know, as I mentioned, we're we're looking at some creative ways to, to get people out there to, to show them, you know, different, different job opportunities that they, that they might find useful, beneficial, you know obviously accessibility work is, is one of those areas because that's a natural skill. It's something that you live and you breathe every day because you're, you're a user, you're a user of assistive technology. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Dr. Alan Chase: So, so that's one area. But then, you know, we also recognize that some, some folks may have other aspirations. They maybe they want to practice law or maybe they want to be a business owner or they want to be an accountant or whatever their, their goal might be. Right? You know, so we have to connect them to to, to mentors and to people in those fields so that they can, they can get a feel for? Is this really what I want to do? And if it is, how do they go about actually doing it? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, when you started out 19 years ago, how many students did you have? Do you remember? Dr. Alan Chase: Oh, you know so going back 19 years ago, as I reflect on that we probably had maybe. Maybe about 15 or so. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Whoa. Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: So huge, huge growth. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The. Dr. Alan Chase: The other thing that I think is, is really important is, is the length of the program. So we when we first started 19 years ago we were just a weekend event, you know, we, we started on a Friday and it was, it was basically, you know, three days, maybe three and a half days. You know, we, we started on a Friday and we ended on a Monday. Right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dr. Alan Chase: And slowly over time, we've we've grown since to now where we we start on a Friday and we go for about a week and a half because we don't end until the following weekend. Right. And, and so again, the, you know, the we've had, we've had requests over the years from people to say we need more time. We, we want there to be more time. And the only limitation that we have is staffing and, and really money. Because in this, you know, in this particular instance, our entire program, 100% of it is volunteer. We, we have no, no paid staff whatsoever. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dr. Alan Chase: And so, you know, to us, and that includes myself. And so to, to ask people, you know, to take a week off of their from their lives, their jobs, their families to volunteer. That's a big commitment. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dr. Alan Chase: And so, you know, we, we recognize that. And, and that's sort of been the, the, the reason that we haven't moved beyond one week. But I think, I think the, the demand is there. What, just when the, when the, when the resources are there to, to provide for that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But what about having like maybe two camps a year, like one in the summer and maybe one in the spring? Is that feasible? You think. Dr. Alan Chase: You know, that's a really good question. And we've we've talked about that over the years and there's, there's a couple of different competing factors that, that play into that decision. One of the factors again, goes back to resources and funding. So we we receive two, two of our main funders is the Lions Club. And our second one is the Delta Gamma Foundation. And so the, the funding that we currently receive from them allows us to run our summer program. And then of course, you know, we use the facilities at the Governor Morehead School, which are we, we do pay for those facilities, but it's a very nominal, nominal cost. Right. So with that being said we would need to find space where those same priorities align, you know, that the, the, the cost is nominal someone who's willing to fund it and so on. And one of the biggest challenges is that during the school year, the. The governor Morehead School is not available because their students are they're they're they're using the dormitories. They're using. They're using the classrooms. And so then we have to find an alternative space. And, you know, we need space that allows for overnight sleeping. We need space for food. We need space for classrooms. Dr. Alan Chase: And there are, there are places out there like community centers, churches, things like that that are willing to, to work with us, but not that have all of all of those things. You know, like churches and community centers, they have space where we can have classes, but they don't have dormitories. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right. Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: So in any event, you know, I, it's one of those things where it's a goal. But it's a goal that once every once everything aligns, then I think it'll be a reality. We just have to work toward that goal. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, what about like, during March break? Is that possible? Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah. So spring break, you know the, the thing, the thing about the school itself or the facility piece is that while the students are not physically there their, their belongings are still there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Yes, yes, yes. Dr. Alan Chase: You know, so you know, it's still their dorm room, their dorm space, you know, they, the only time they actually move out is during the, for the summer. Right. And so that's again, that, that's where the, the, the challenge comes into play. The other, the other challenge that we, that comes into play, I think is, is just scheduling. And when I say scheduling, I mean Pretty much everybody. It doesn't matter if you're in middle school, high school, college. Pretty much everybody gets the summer off, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes. Dr. Alan Chase: But the, the rest of the school year, things are not as consistent. You know spring, spring break for, for a college is oftentimes different than for high schools. Right. And so finding a common week where most people are, are also off of school is just really challenging. Dr. Alan Chase: So you know, that that creates a barrier there because if we pick the week, you know, some may have to miss school and some may not be willing to miss school and so on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What about two summer camps then? Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that goes back to what we, you know, if we during the summer, we, we certainly have the we have the space. Right. It would just be a matter of, we would need to convince folks to give us a little bit more money. Yeah. And then we would need to convince folks that you know, we would, we would need more volunteers because, you know, as it, as it stands now, we have a, a, an excellent dedicated staff that comes for a week. And I'm, I'm not so sure, you know, after, after this one week you know, and we're super excited that you're able to join us this year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I am honored and I'm privileged. Thank you for inviting me. Dr. Alan Chase: Yes. And I'm sure so, you know, at let, let, let me paint the picture at the beginning of the week. Everyone is super excited. There's lots of energy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dr. Alan Chase: And then by the end and by the end of the week, everyone is exhausted because you've you've been on the move. You've you've been in classes, you've been off campus, you've, you've stayed up late making new friends. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right, right. Dr. Alan Chase: And so that's why I, that's why I say, you know, we, if we did a two week two weeks, we would probably have to build in a break or find a, a second set of volunteers to, to, to staff it be just, you know, because it's, it's a lot, it's a, it's a very intense week. We, we start with breakfast at around 730 in the morning. Dr. Alan Chase: And then we, we, we pretty much, we have classes and activities all the way until dinner time. Dr. Alan Chase: And then even. And then even in the evenings, we have evening activities. Folks are going to the gym. They're going to the game room. They're going off campus. So pretty much you're, you're on the go from breakfast until you, until you go to bed. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my gosh. It's it's hectic. Yeah yeah yeah. Now tell me about the content of some of these activities like lectures, workshops. Tell me about it. Tell us about it. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah, for sure, for sure. So you know, again, we have, we have two tracks. We have the college track and the entrepreneurship track. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dr. Alan Chase: And the entrepreneurship track, you start at the beginning of the week with creating an idea and we encourage you to think about, you know, what are your interests, what are you good at? What do you want to do? Well, what motivates you? And then over the course of the week, the classes that they take build on that idea so that at the by the end of the week, you have to make a presentation or a pitch. Sort of think of like Shark Tank, right? You're, you're in front of investors and you have to pitch your, your business idea. And so that's the, that's what they do over the course of the week. They, they take their idea, they fine tune it. They develop their business plan. And by the end of the week, they're pitching their idea. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dr. Alan Chase: So that's sort of the, the entrepreneurship track, the college track. You, you start the week again with, with an idea of, you know, where do I want to go to college? What, what do I want to major in? All those Important decisions, you know. And part of that decision also is what do I want to do with my future? You know, your future might be maybe the career path that you want to go down requires you to go to graduate school. And so then you have to think about, well I have to build my undergraduate career to prepare me to go to graduate school. And so we start with, again, with those big ideas. And then the courses over the over that week all align with those concepts. So how, how can you be successful? So how do you have to be a good advocate? You have to know what your needs are. You have to know what your accommodation should be. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Dr. Alan Chase: You have to know how to navigate you know, selecting your classes, what classes do I pick? How to know what a course catalog is. Things like that. How to how to, you know, how to make sure that you're meeting grade point requirements and you know, and filling out applications and, and so on. So, and, and accessing just across the campus, accessing all the resources, you know, the, maybe the career center or the writing center or whatever the case might be. Dr. Alan Chase: And so for that group, for that, for the, for the college track, by the end of the week, their goal is they also have to do a presentation, but their presentation is geared more toward what they have learned over the course of the week about themselves. Dr. Alan Chase: And kind of laying out a roadmap of this is, this is where I am. This is where I want to go and this is how I'm going to get there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you have repeat students, doctor? Like, would they come, like from more than one year? Dr. Alan Chase: So, you know, we, we do, we, we do have some who, who come for more than one year. And we encourage that. And the reason we encourage it is because I'm going to go back to what I said at the very beginning. We want to build capacity. And so we want we want you to come back as a student. But more importantly, what we really, really want is we want folks to come back to be part of our staff. We want. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Dr. Alan Chase: We want you to come as a student. You experience what we do, how we do it, and then we want them to come back and then serve as a mentor. We want them to be a mentor pass on their experience. You know, they, maybe they came, they came to our college track. They went to college. Then let's say they went and got a job and got some experience. And, you know, now they come back and they say, you know, now that I've gained all this experience, I want to share my knowledge. I want to give back and share my knowledge with others. And so we, you know, of course, we encourage that. And then we also, you know, the next step above that is we, we want to build their leadership skills. So we have, we have opportunities beyond being a mentor to, to be a leader. So we have some coordinator level positions where you're responsible for coordinating various aspects of the program. So for example, you know, we have like a recreation coordinator. And so that that person kind of organizes all the evening activities. And we, we have a coordinator over the entire career track. And we have a coordinator over the entire college track. Dr. Alan Chase: We have dorm coordinators who are responsible. The dorms are a great learning opportunity because a lot of people have first, well, first and foremost, most people have may have never experienced a situation where they have to share a living space. So that's that, that's, that's the first challenge. The second challenge is for a lot of people they may be the only person with a visual impairment in their community. They, they, they may have interacted with people, you know, virtually or on the telephone or in some way like that with other people with visual impairments, but not, not in a physical in-person space. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Dr. Alan Chase: And so it, so you know it. I like to call them learning opportunities. So, you know, are there, are there challenges? Are there some difficulties that arise when you're sharing a living space? You know, do let's say, for example, do snacks and drinks magically grow legs and walk away? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dr. Alan Chase: Absolutely. They do. You know, does, does one person want to get up at 5 a.m. and get a shower and, you know, listen to music while their roommate wants to sleep in right up until breakfast time? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes. Dr. Alan Chase: It happens. And so those are learning opportunities to, to problem solve and to figure out, well, okay, how, how do I talk to my roommate about the sleeping schedule or the bathroom schedule? Or How do I communicate with folks to say, hey, look, this stuff in this cabinet on the right side, this is my stuff. Don't touch it. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: On the left side. Dr. Alan Chase: That's right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I won't touch it. Dr. Alan Chase: That's right. So you know, and so that's sort of the social side. So, you know, there's the social side of it. And so with when, when you're a coordinator, you know, when you, when you have a leadership role within our program, those are sort of the things that that our coordinators have to, to deal with and address and it, and it builds your leadership skills because, you know, honestly, what, what usually happens is most people will, they'll come to me, they'll say, well, doctor Chase, this happened or doctor Chase, can you, can you do this? Or can you solve this? Or, and you know, and don't get me wrong, there, there are certain situations that that only I can address. Right. But but by far I say, have you talked to your coordinator? You know, have you have you talked to your mentor? And usually the answer is no. And so then I'm like, well, your first step is you need to talk to them and try to work it out before you come to me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. So. Dr. Alan Chase: You know, so we're trying to build. So, you know, to wrap it all up, we're trying to not only build up for our students, their academic and their employability skills, but we're also trying to build their social skills. And then for, for our staff, we're trying to build their leadership skills. So then, you know, again, later on in the future that they have the capacity to carry forward what what you and I have been doing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's a very intense week. And these these kids or youngsters, they get to meet new people. Is, is this just confined to the state of, you know, North Carolina or does it go across the US? Dr. Alan Chase: That's a really good question. So we by far because the response, the, the responsibility of travel is on the student and their family. So, so by far the, the majority of the people that come to the camp are from the, the, the eastern part of the United States. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Dr. Alan Chase: Okay. Just because transportation is, is simpler, easier, cheaper. Yes. Now, that doesn't mean that we, we, we do have, and, and we have had people come from all over the United States and, and even other countries. Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Dr. Alan Chase: So, for example, you know, this year we, we have some folks coming from Illinois. We, we've had, we've had folks from California, New York, new Jersey, Massachusetts, Florida, Texas, I mean, really all all over. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah. One year, several years many years ago we did have two people who came from Mexico. Oh. So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah. So, you know you know, I, I suppose we could claim that we're international. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Of course. Yeah. Wow. So you're saying for this year, you got about 40 students? Yes. Dr. Alan Chase: Roughly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. And the dorm rooms themselves. Are they like private rooms or. You got to share. Tell me. Tell us about that. Dr. Alan Chase: Oh, yeah. So? So I'm going to try to paint a picture here for you. So think of like a suite. So there are in one dorm room, there are two beds. Dr. Alan Chase: So you share an actual room? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: And then there is a bathroom in the middle that connects to another dorm room. Yeah. So it's a suite of four people to two people per room. Okay. With with a common bathroom. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bathroom. Okay. Dr. Alan Chase: And so that kind of goes back to what I, you know, alluded to earlier of if all four people decide I'm going to sleep in and get up at the last minute. Well, four people can't all take a shower at one time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? So they have to schedule each other or, you know, whatever. Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah, you have to you have to coordinate. And, and what I and what I say to people is what that boils down to is communication. You, you have to communicate. Dr. Alan Chase: And, you know, you may not always. And just like in a, in an employment situation, right? You, you may ask your boss for something. You may not always get what you want. And that's okay, but you have to live with it. And so in this situation, you know, maybe your routine is that you get a shower and, you know, in the mornings, but you may have to be flexible and take your shower the evening before. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Interesting. And these kids are eager to go and they know all these things before they get there, right? Dr. Alan Chase: Oh, yes. Yes. So actually next in two weeks. In two weeks, we're gonna have a large group meeting. So it's going to be the students, all of the mentors, our coordinators, everybody who's coming, they're all going to come to this big meeting and we're going to give them you know, basically an overview. Just like now we've, we've shared all this with, with them in writing, you know, we've shared them with them, you know, this is what you need to bring, this is what the space is like. Here's the schedule. But during this group meeting, you know, we're going to go over some of the logistical things, sort of like how I've communicated to you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dr. Alan Chase: And again, it's, it's going to, it's going to be an opportunity for folks to, to ask questions, clarify things. Advertisement: From. Dr. Alan Chase: You know, things like that. You know, we, we want to be very transparent and we want, we want folks who are coming to know that these, the, we, these things are done intentionally because we, we want it to be a learning opportunity. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right. I personally am looking forward to this opportunity. I've started with you in 2024, and I was delighted when you invited me to come down this year, and I'm looking forward to it. I mean, the first year I, I, I was with you virtually, those kids just blew me away with their attitude. So refreshing, so eager to, to do things and, and to share their ideas. It was amazing. Last year was very similar. So this year I get to see it face to face and I can't wait. You know it's I don't know what else to say. I mean, it it's it's great. And, you know, I, I hope that moving forward after this year, I hope you find a way to expand. But 40 kids, I, I don't know what I was expecting you to tell me, but 40 kids is a lot, right? Is this the most number of kids that you've ever had? Dr. Alan Chase: That's a really good question. And the answer is actually no. I think the, the largest number that we've ever, ever had I want to say was 52. Oh. And we were and at, and the year that we had 52, we were literally bursting at the seams. Because, you know, again the, the, the space is only as big as the space is, right? I, I can't, I can't make the rooms bigger than they are. Yeah. And so, you know, we've, we've sort of, we've sort of have found over the last 19 years that, you know, the, the sweet spot, a good number is somewhere, somewhere between 35 and 45. So we're right there where we want to be. We're not, you know, we, we, we have found that more than 45 were stretched a little thin. If, if it's under 35, you know, you, you lose a little bit of, of the learning just because the the numbers are smaller. So I think we're, we're right where we want to be. We, we found the sweet spot. And, you know, we're, we're, we're super excited to, to be able to continue and, you know, we're, we're already we haven't even had this year yet. And we're, already having conversations about, well, what are we going to do for our the big 20 years? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Next year. Yeah. Something special, I guess. Yeah. Wow. And you've been involved from the word go. Like this is your brainchild. Dr. Alan Chase: It is. Yes. You know I believe that things are really formed out of necessity. And so, you know, again, 19 years ago, we, we had an opportunity where people, people came to me and they said, hey, look, you know, we're, we're, we're struggling here with, you know, how do we navigate this, this thing called college? How do we know what to do and when to do it? And how do we talk to people? And so it was born out of necessity. And then and at the time we knew there was a need, but we didn't know how how great the need was. Dr. Alan Chase: And I think what we've learned over the years is that the, the, the need is, is tremendous. It's a, it's a huge need out there. Yeah. And I, and then I think the other thing that we've, we've noticed and very similar to what you shared during your introduction is that we've, over the years, what I think we've identified is that education, largely that most of the barriers in education have been addressed with legislation. There's, there's laws now that govern accessibility and accommodations and things like that. Right. The, the barrier that still exists in education is really the, the, the social piece the how do I participate in the, the broader educational community? Because there's such a high focus on academics. We think we forget, we forget about, well, the, the social skills, we forget about sports clubs, organizations, things like that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: And so I think we're, you know, we're, we're making progress there. Now the area where I, I think we're, we're not making progress is and the employment side. So yeah, you know, we, we have, again, we have laws on the books. There's, there's lots of legislation about you know job accommodations and, and things of that nature. But what, what we're seeing though within the numbers, the, the statistics, the data tells us that that people with visual impairments are still largely, you know, either unemployed or underemployed. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. And that's a very sad picture. It even exists here in Canada. Dr. Alan Chase: Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Maybe globally, I don't know. But what was the stats that I, I saw the other day. 71% of unemployment amongst vision impaired people. Dr. Alan Chase: That sounds that sounds about right. And I and you know, and I think the I do think it's a global issue from a lot of the research that I have done, you'll, you'll find that in the countries there are some countries out there where unemployment is very low for people with visual impairments. But when you dig a little deeper, when you kind of peel that back, which will which you'll often find is that the reason that that the unemployment is so low is because most of those jobs are, are, are government jobs. They're the, some countries have systems in place where there are certain jobs that, that are set aside by the government specifically for people with visual impairments. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right, right. Dr. Alan Chase: And so then, you know, then then you have to ask the question of, well, you know, that's great that they have a job, but it may not be the field that that they want to be in. Right. And so, you know, it creates a, it creates a system where, you know, your, your self-determination, your your goal, your motivation you might be locked into something you're not happy with, right? Dr. Alan Chase: So but yeah, so to connect that back to what we were talking about that's, so that's one of the, that's one of the motivators for, for us is, you know, we're, we're seeing, so we're seeing positive things. But we're also still seeing some, some need. And so 19 years ago, we started based on necessity and that necessity is, is still there today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And probably will continue to grow. I think. Right. Dr. Alan Chase: Oh yeah, I, I think you know, again, looking at some of the data and I think this is, you know, this is where I think disability kind of intersects a little bit with the, the medical world. Advances in medicine have allowed people who maybe ten, 20, 30 years ago may not have lived. Maybe their medical condition was such that they, they pass away early in life. Or maybe, maybe they're not even born at all. But now they, you know, they, they are born and they may have a visual impairment and other disabilities. And so we have to account now that for, for that population they, they also equally need to be employable. They need to have access to higher education. And you know, they, they don't need to be institutionalized. They, they need to be able to have the self-determination to say, well, this is what I want to do with my life. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. This is very interesting and, you know, really, really exciting for me. I'm really looking forward to being with you at the end of July. But tell me, Doctor Allen, what if you had a wish or a hope? Because my clock is winding down here. What? What would be one of your cherished hopes for the future? I know this camp is enormous, and this camp has really done a lot over all these years, and to be still around after 19 years is a great feat in itself. So what are your hopes and dreams moving forward after this camp? Dr. Alan Chase: Yeah, I love that question. And I, I, I'm going to I'm going to answer it in a pretty broad sense. Yeah. Because, you know, I, I think our camp is at the, at the end of the day, the core of what we do is education. And we are one very small piece of a very big puzzle. Yeah. Because we're only there for one, one week out of the year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: I think my wish would be that we we need to look at the whole child, the whole person. And I think our our public schools, our educational system. I think we do a decent job in some cases, a good job of the the academic piece, but I, I, my fear is, is that we, we, we don't do a good job for those extra the, you know, there's the expanded core curriculum, which has nine areas that are some of them are associated with academics, but. But most of them are not. And those are the nine areas that really. Research has identified that a person with a visual impairment needs to, to master and be successful at in order to to be successful and independent. Right. And so I, I think that our, our educational system needs to embrace the idea that we're not just educating a person academically, but we're educating the whole person. And so we have to allow time and opportunity to incorporate some of those non-academic skills into what we do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's going to be very interesting. And, you know, like with AI now being a part of the landscape, how are we going to shape the futures of our leaders? You know I don't know, you know, but I know one thing that concerns me is that when you and I retire, that there are people there ready to pick up the mantle and keep on going, you know. Dr. Alan Chase: Well, you know, I think the, the, the answer to that, to that question which is very interesting is that the you'll notice that a lot of people in our field don't retire or if they do retire, they continue, they continue to work after retirement. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: Because they, they live in that, that void of, of where they fear. Well, if I, if I do stop working, then no one's going to come behind me and fill the gap, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Alan Chase: And, and so that's, you know, we have a lot of great people in the field who who are at the, the time of retirement or, or, or well beyond the time for retirement. But it's such a specialized field and there's so few people and we, we have not done as good of a job as we could have of building the next generation. So I think that's, you know, again, that's, it's, it's necessity. We're, we're, we're building it based on necessity. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Doctor Allen, it has been a pleasure having you back. And we've learned so much. And you know, I know our listeners are are going to be really interested to be following you as we as as you go along. And I'm looking forward to, to actually meeting you in person and Ashley and Tiffany and everybody else at the end of July. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Well, we are. Dr. Alan Chase: Super excited to have you. And for all of to all of your listeners you know, I, again, I, I encourage all of you to, to check us out, be advocates and, and reach out, let us know what your needs are and how we can help. At some point we would, we would love to continue to expand and be able to touch, touch people in other places. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I might have a way for you to be able to expand, and I will send you an email offline and introduce you to my associate, Aaron. Aaron is the godfather of persons with disabilities network. And I think that this could benefit you in many ways. So stay tuned. But in the meantime, thank you for being here again. And we'll, we'll be happy to have you again. And you know, in a few months after this camp is over. Dr. Alan Chase: All right. Well, thank you again and I hope everyone has a great day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too. Take care now and see you soon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye now. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #92: Interview with Paul Gareau

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #92: Interview with Paul Gareau | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-05-19-2026/ [https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-05-19-2026/] In this deeply nostalgic episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna welcomes Paul Gareau, retired Executive Director of the Montreal Association for the Blind (MAB) and architect of the 2006 MAB-Mackay merger that became today's Lethbridge-Layton-Mackay Rehabilitation Centre [https://www.llmrc.ca/about-us/history/], for a conversation tracing his thirty-year journey from Loyola sociology graduate, to University of Toronto Master of Social Work scholarship student, to the lone social worker for 1,800 students at a Sherbrooke high school, and on into the leadership rooms of one of Canada's most beloved disability-services institutions. Paul walks listeners through residential life at the Penfield Reception Centre, his Concordia Diploma in Institutional Administration earned in night classes while running MAB full-time, and the remarkable breadth of services under his stewardship, from the low-vision clinic, talking-book library, and Gilman Residence to the Philip E. Layton School, the technical-aids boutique, the Employment Integration Program, the Braille production unit, and a service of more than 300 volunteers. What makes this conversation unforgettable is that it is also a reunion. Paul was once Donna's own social worker and the person who recommended the surgeon Dr. Joel Rosen for her first corneal transplant; Donna herself lived at Penfield for a year and a half at the start of her Montreal journey. Together they recall the late Dr. John Simms, who appeared at her hospital bedside after her 1981 accident; the formidable Irene Lambert, whose voice helped keep right-turn-on-red out of Montreal; lifelong best friend Charlene; and volunteer reader Jill Bond, with whom Donna still travels Europe. The episode closes with Paul's post-retirement strategic-planning consulting and board work with the Pillars Trust Fund, including pandemic-era funding so parishes could stream masses during COVID, and his three enduring lessons: keep your eye on the mission, adjust quickly to changing circumstances, and remember that every challenge carries an opportunity inside it. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty Platinum Jubilee Award for her tireless work with with tireless work and commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am honored and I am pleased and privileged to welcome Paul Garrow. Paul and I go back a very long time, and I will share with my listeners that Paul is responsible for the doctor who gave me my first corneal transplant, doctor, Joel Rosen. Paul, welcome to our podcast. Paul Gareau: Thank you so much, Donna. It's a real pleasure to be with you and touch base with you again. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, indeed. So, Paul, after Loyola, you went on to earn your Master of Social work at the University of Toronto on a full academic scholarship. And then you came back to Quebec to work with the Polyvalent secondary school population at the centre de service socio the last three in Sherbrooke. What pulled you toward direct on this ground? Social work with young people in those very first years of your career. Paul Gareau: The interesting question. Thanks, Donna. I, I, I went to Loyola High School, as you mentioned, and then I went to Loyola College to get a B.A. in sociology, and I found it fascinating to study societal problems. But I thought, you know, I wouldn't mind trying to do something about them. So I investigated social work. I had taken an introduction to social work course in my undergraduate studies, and the prof was was a practitioner and he brought in different community group representatives. And I just thought it was fascinating. So I applied to U of T and got into their Master of Social work program. And I had a number of different placements. And it was at that time that I realized that I was really drawn to working with youth. So I had the opportunity to do so at, as you mentioned, at the Saint Silvester in Sherbrooke, Quebec, and I was hired to work at a high school to be the social worker there. And I was very anxious to start. When I got there, there were 1800 kids and there was one social worker. So I had a lot to learn. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Whoa! Paul Gareau: Yeah, but I was I was drawn to it because young people can go through difficult times. And it was my feeling that if they could make it through those challenges at that at that young age, it can really make a difference to their life then and in the years going forward. So it was it was fascinating to work. I had, as I said, I had much to learn as a young neophyte social worker, but it was a it was a fascinating experience and one I treasured. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in 1976, you joined the Montreal Association for the blind as a social worker. The start of what became a 30 year journey. Looking back, what was it about the MLB and the visually impaired community in Montreal that captured your heart and made you decide to stay? Paul Gareau: Yeah. I remember coming to the Montreal Association for the blind, for my for my job interview. And when I walked into the place, it was just so welcoming. I'm sure that you and your listeners have had that same experience. You walked into an organization and it just felt good. It felt welcoming, and it felt like a place you'd want to be. Right. The people, as you know, because you were you're a part of the family. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I was. Paul Gareau: People were so warm. They were friendly. They were professional. It felt like a good place to be. And I also, during that day that I was doing the interview, I had the opportunity to meet with blind and visually impaired staff and clients. And I realized in speaking with them and spending some time that I could, I could really have a lot that I could learn from them. So I was fortunate I got the job. And as you say, it was the beginning of what ended up being a 30 year career at the Mab. I was and I was just really fortunate to have been a part of the Mabee family for, for all those years. It was was a great place to work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It sure was. And I will always remember the first day I walked in there, I was just a kid. I was a teenager. And it was so welcoming, you know, like people were great people, you know, reached out, want to help you out and everything. I remember the day you became our social worker and, you know, it was quite something else. You know. Paul Gareau: We won't say how many years ago that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no, no, we don't, we won't, we won't know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh, now, many of our listeners may not realize that the Penfield's reception Center, which you directed from 1979 to 1985, was formally opened to the Mab in 1973 by the legendary neurosurgeon, Doctor Wilder Penfield himself. Can you describe what daily life at Penfield was like for clients and staff, and what running that site taught you about how Rehabilitation Center truly comes alive? Paul Gareau: Yeah. Penfield was a residential rehab program at at the Montreal Association for the blind, for Blind and visually Impaired young adults, and many of whom had other additional disabilities. So during the day, there were one on one and group habilitation and rehab programs for each client. We were very lucky at Penfield. We had a staff of special care counselors, but there were additional staff from the Mab occupational therapy orientation and mobility instruction, etc. to really give the program a full gamut of services. So the days were pretty, pretty busy with with programming for each client. Evenings and weekends were a lot more fun in some ways. We got to, we got to do a number of activities, outings, barbecues, you know, that kind of thing. The, the staff were were exceptional. All of us at Penfield, I think from clients and staff and volunteers, we were back then, we were all pretty young. And I think in many ways, we grew up together at Penfield and in many ways as well. It was a home for us all. There were friendships that were formed there that amongst staff and clients and volunteers that were to last a lifetime. And it was, it was a remarkable experience. I was, I was blessed to have the opportunity to be part of it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, that's where I got my start to. When I came to Montreal, it was at Penfield. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No kidding. Yeah. Paul Gareau: I, you know, I, I thought so, but I didn't want to say anything in case my memory failed me. Really? So what was what was your what was your feeling about it from, from a client point of view? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Paul. It was overwhelming to me. But you know what? Staff made me feel so welcomed. And, and the other roommates that I had, you know, like Christine and Charlene. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And Eve and I could go on and on. We were family, you know, like I was far away from home. And they made me feel that I had a home, a new home. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: It really it really was something special. I just, I look back on it and as I say, we're it sounds trite, but it's not. It was it was a real valuable experience of feeling that this was a home for us all. And it was, it was extremely special. What was the, what was, if you had a highlight from it, what would be a highlight from your time at Penfield or a memory that really sticks out in your mind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The day we met Doctor Wilder Penfield. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, like. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I didn't quite understand who he was at first. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And then staff member said, do you know who he is? And I said, I'm not sure. And then they educated me and I thought. And I shook his hand and he said, when's your birthday? And I told him, and he says, well, my birthday is almost the same day. And I thought, I wonder if he's putting me on or what is he doing here? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I shook his hand. I'll never forget that night. Paul Gareau: It was. There was a. There was a plaque when you when you walked into Penfield? Yeah. With the name of Penfield Penfield House, and it was named after him. And I can remember seeing that when I. Every day when I walked in. But I'm like you, I was I was a little. I was taken aback when I met the man in person. He was just a. It was just something very special. Really special. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Paul Gareau: So you were at Penfield for. For how long? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was at Penfield for a year and a half. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. All right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I still kept going back. I still. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Kept. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Going back. I, I had to go back and, and, you know, interact and engage with, with the roommates that I had left. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you know, this and I made long, life long friendships with, with some of the staff members too. Paul Gareau: It's amazing. I mean, the, the staff all went on after Penfield to do so many. They were all successful in very different ways in the helping professions volunteers to was, was a touching experience for, for them. I got amazing feedback from, from people who said that in some ways it changed their life. Just to know that that kind of a place could exist was, was, was something special. So yeah, it's it's, I think you have to have lived it to appreciate it. And it was, it was only when, when it was over that I began to realize, you know, how fortunate we were to have that time to, to be there at Penfield together. It was an incredible experience. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think. Well, I know like for me, I always try to appreciate it the best way I could, but when I actually left it and then I moved to Toronto, I cried, I cried, I, I missed it, I missed the whole maybe not just Penfield. Paul Gareau: Yeah, maybe. I think I always say that like Penfield was like a home and the map was like a family. Paul Gareau: And just Yeah, just something special. And you kind of had to experience it to to to believe it. So it's neat to hear what, what your recollections are. And as I say, we're going back a few years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah, we. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Were going back many years. But, you know, the one thing I will always remember when I graduated with my Bachelor of Commerce from Concordia University, and all the staff members were out cheering and I thought, what are they really cheering about? And then someone said, they're cheering about you, you idiot. You know, and they supported me all the way. You're not going to get that today. You know. Paul Gareau: It's it was it's hard to find any time, but I think it's especially more difficult to more difficult today is the service delivery systems have changed to some degree. Yeah. But yeah, we, we had something special going there and it was like, I think we all were learning how to be more independent together. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Paul Gareau: And I think we were all really looked at it as an opportunity to learn from each other and be with each other. And it was yeah, it was just a really amazing time. People. I've run into people you know, years later and who have gone on to do some incredible things in the professions and all of them have the same feeling they look back on Penfield is just this special experience that was they've never been able to replicate really anywhere else. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So no. Paul Gareau: I'm glad to hear you. You felt, you know, the same way from a from a client perspective. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I did, I did, and I will never, ever forget it. And I, you know, I don't know if there's going to be a reunion one day or could there be one? Paul Gareau: Yeah. You know, we, we had a small get together not that long ago, but it's something that you know, we try to keep in touch and it's, it's harder to do as the years go by. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Oh, gosh. Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now during those same deputy editor years, you were also enrolled in Concordia's evening program for the Diploma in Institutional Administration, earning a place on the Dean's Honor roll while running a full time portfolio at the MEB. Wow. What drove you to take on that kind of academic load? Mid-career. And what did the DIA ultimately unlock for you? Paul Gareau: Well, I moved on from Penfield and became the deputy executive director, which took me further into the management area, which is something I didn't have a lot of experience in. And it was it was I was lucky in the DG role, that deputy DG role that I got to get some experience in working with the Quebec Ministry of Health and Social Services, the local Health and Social Services Commission, and work collaboratively with other rehab centres as. As the. It was required. But I came to realize that I needed to add some new tools to my skill toolbox. Something I'm sure that you found in your career to at some point with, with all the courses in the many degrees that you've amassed. So I found that graduate program at an institutional administration at the John Molson School of Business at Concordia. And I thought it might help give me the background that I was missing in finance, accounting, marketing, management, leadership. Right. I had the clinical skills, but I didn't have the managerial background. So I found the program was really interesting. It gave me, you know, what I needed, I think from a managerial point of view. But the other thing I realized when I was completing it, it gave me a different perspective on how to look at a rehab center. I always looked at it from a clinical point of view, and looking at it from a quote unquote business point of view. It gives you another perspective and it allows you to, you know, have a have a wider experience in which to make decisions that are going to affect the organization. So ultimately proved very helpful going forward. It really I think it, you have to look at in your career, what areas you can continue to work on to improve and meet the different situations that you're going to encounter. And I thought this was, this was one of the helpful things to, from a managerial point of view, to get me going down that road, you know? Well equipped. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It must have been a lot of hard work, like your full time job during the day and at night you're off to school. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Paul Gareau: Yeah. And, you know, you're, you know as well as anyone. Your weekends and your evenings are kind of shut. So you have your your days pretty full with your full time job, and your evenings and weekends are filled with your education. But you know, I think it's a worthwhile investment to make. It's one, you know, it's hard to do, but it was it was, as I say, it was really useful to me in getting skills that, that I was really lacking if I was going to continue on a managerial path. So yeah, it's, it's always difficult, I think, to do evening courses. And I have utmost respect for the people that do them because I know it can be a slog at times. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you had to really balance your life a lot during that time, didn't you? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: I'm well, I'm sure, you know, getting your law degree, I'm sure was no easy feat for you either. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Paul Gareau: And I'm sure you found your evenings and weekends pretty full as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, by the time that you were executive director of the Mab. The Mab was serving roughly 2000. 200,000 blind and vision impaired clients a year, and with a budget of about $8 million. 168 employees and a service of more than 300 volunteers. Okay. Paint a picture for our listeners of just how wide that organization's reach truly was. From the Low Vision Clinic to the orientation and mobility instructors out in the community and the technical Aids boutique with its 200 plus adapted devices. Quite a mouthful. Tell us. Paul Gareau: Yeah, we we were really happy to have the range of services that we were able to offer at MBB. We served a number of clients per year, usually about 3 to 4000 clients a year. We had a number of full time and part time employees. The rehab side was organized along multidisciplinary teams by age groups. So we had an early intervention team, a youth team, an adult team, and a seniors team. Paul Gareau: And the services that were available from those teams was wide ranging. We had social work. We had low vision services, orientation and mobility. We had training in computer technology, something I'm sure that for you has been a lifelong learning skill. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: Yeah. Occupational therapy, communication skills. Daily living skills. We had yeah, we had a library with 845 people users. We had a visual Aids program. We had Gilman residents for seniors, which. Which had 70 seniors in residents. We had a day center for 310 blind seniors. We had a technical Aids boutique with the day. We had about 7000 users per year utilizing that service. We operated Philip Layton School on site in collaboration with the local school board for 36 students, and we had 61 students integrated into public schools throughout the English Montreal School Board, as you mentioned, we had 300 volunteers, and I can't stress enough how important volunteers were to be able to provide everything that we we felt we needed to provide to our clientele. We had an employment integration program where we had 163 users per year going through that. We had a Braille production program where we produced over 30,000 pages of text transcribed into Braille, and we had leisure time activities. We had a weaving group, we had a ham radio group, and we had 86 clients to 100 clients per year in our cheerio program, which was bingo and other activities for blind seniors. So in looking at, you know, take taking a view from 100,000ft, we had the, we had just a number of services, a full range of services for people. And we were extremely fortunate to be able to have all those services. But what the Mab was really about, besides the programs and the statistics, really what the Mab was all about was people. And we were very blessed to have the staff, the board of directors, the management, the clients and the volunteers that we had to make it the special place it was. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I'll share two little stories. One of them, one of my volunteer readers is now my lifelong friend. And almost every year we travel together across Europe. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Her name is Jill Bond, and I'm meeting her in a week from now. And we're going to be off doing a trip. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where are you going? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm all. I'm meeting her in London, and then we're going to Europe, and we are going to be doing an evaluation for a cruise company. We're starting off in Denmark. Amsterdam. We're going to Norway. Sweden, Finland. Poland. France. Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, you don't get these lifelong relationships very, very often. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You don't. Right, right. So. Paul Gareau: Well, that's really special, isn't it? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is. And then, you know, like the librarian, Dorothy Allen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Don't know. Dorothy is still with us or not, but she was, I don't know. Do you know if she. Paul Gareau: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But she was a special lady for sure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes she was. And then we had Marian Torpey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Port operator, and Nicole and Ellie Ann and Mr. Evans and Doctor Sims. Well, most of them are now gone Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: Doctor Sims was special. He was executive director. And when I began my career and he appointed me as deputy director general. So I had so much that I could learn from him. He was he was an amazing fellow. I mean, he was he was head of the English Montreal school board. He was the mayor of Montreal West. He was a Protestant minister, and he was the executive director of Mab. So I I had a lot I could learn from a man of his stature. And he was, he was he was unbelievably supportive and just a role model for, for me. So a real gentleman and an excellent professional. You you knew him as well? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I did, yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I did, and he did a lot for me. And he always had time to listen to me. And I'll never forget, I had an awful accident in 1981, and one of the first people to show up at the hospital was Doctor Sims. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, and he said to me, do you want a chaplain to come by? I said, you you'll do Doctor Sims. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's fine. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know. Paul Gareau: Isn't that something. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is, it is. I mean, you you just don't you don't get these types of relationships anywhere else. You don't not in today's world. Paul Gareau: A I think I know sometimes when I'm singing the praises of maybe to someone who, you know, didn't benefit from the experience, I don't think they quite believe it. You know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That. Paul Gareau: That, that, that, that can happen. But if you know, as you know, if you meet anybody that manages to be, you know, part of that family it was something special. So wow, that's, that's an amazing story about Doctor Sims. So much like him. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: Yeah. Wow. And your volunteer reader, how many years is that now? That friendship? Or should we or should we even go there? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We won't go there. But I will. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell you, it's. Oh, gosh, it's probably almost half my life, you know, like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, like, I never thought that we would, you know, retain a relationship. And my best friend Charlene, right. When I met her so many years ago, the very first day. So I walked into the MAB my parents left me there and said, now you better make this happen. And I thought, oh dear. So we sat down to lunch and, and they were serving Mexican chicken. And Shah said, would you like my chicken? I said, I guess I would, and she flung it into my plate. It spattered all over my face, my sweater, my hair, my everything. From then we were good friends, you know, we were best of friends. And I'll never forget it. And like I said, when when you recommended Doctor Joel Rosen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'll never forget that you came to visit me at the hospital that night, and I knew then I that I was going to get vision because I could see through the patch in my eye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I could see colors, I could see things. And I thought, this is not happening to me, is it? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Gareau: Amazing, amazing. Amazing stuff. I saw Charlene just the other day. There was one of One of our employees was ex-employees from MB. Was retiring after 40 years. And and there was this, there was a little a little do. And cha was there. So. And in good in good form. So next time I see her, I'll pass along your good, good wishes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah yeah. Paul Gareau: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So in 1993, Mab participated in a Quebec government pilot to establish a formal users committee, Giving clients real representation on the board from your seat at the leadership table. Why did giving blind and visually impaired clients in a formal voice in government matters so much matter to you? And what changed? Once it was in place? Paul Gareau: Yeah. The Quebec government passed legislation to call for the formation of users committees among health and social service establishments, as you say. And I think it was a it was an important initiative to give clients the opportunity to be involved in the decision making at health and social service establishments and, and really give them a seat at the table. But for us at Mab, we already had something going along those lines long before the government passed the legislation. Mab, since its inception, Had bylaws which govern its its direction. And the bylaws called for one quarter of the board of directors to either be blind or visually impaired, blind and visually impaired persons, or from families of blind and visually impaired persons. So the Mab, from its outset, always had one quarter of its board of directors for the 16 board clients or clients families. So we were, I think, ahead of its time in that regard. Nonetheless, I think the, the formation of the users committee increased and enhanced the client participation in the running of the center. And we were extremely fortunate at Mab to have Irene Lambert. I don't know if you knew Irene. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I do. Paul Gareau: All right. So then, you know, she was a well known advocate for blind and visually impaired community. For years and years and years, she served as the president of our Users Committee, a long time member of the Board of directors. Irene was just so special and so connected and so forthright about about the needs of the blind and visually impaired community. She was just a tremendous leader. She brought so much knowledge to the table. And we were we were so fortunate to have her. So you knew Irene? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I do. And I, you know, I have a little story to tell in that when I was president of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians, she brought me into a corner and she said, listen here, you're not showing any strength. I think it's about time you did something. And I thought, oh, dear God, I don't want to get on this lady's wrong. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no. Paul Gareau: If Irene asked you to do something, you better be doing it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Or else. Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. She was. She really helped me a lot. She showed me the way. She was a tower of strength, you know. Paul Gareau: She was really something. She. She founded the low vision self-help organization in the West Island of Montreal, right? I remember going with Irene to when they were going to have right turn on red, red lights. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: And in Montreal, they were they were looking at having right turn on red lights for cars in Montreal. Right. And it was something that we were really fearful of for our clientele. And the clients were adamantly against it. So I remember going to a hearing with Irene and you know, I, she spoke first and I didn't have much to add after she, she had given her speech because she, she knew her dossier backwards, forwards and sideways. Yeah. And you know, she was just so great at putting it forth in venues like that. And a little addendum, we still do not have right turn on red in the city of Montreal. So I think we have Irene to we have Irene to thank for some of that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Paul Gareau: Yeah. Special, special lady still going strong. I see her irregularly, but she's still very active and blind or visually impaired community. And yeah, just an amazing voice. And leader and someone that, you know, I learned a lot from. And I, I used to also say people would say, well, how do you know what the, what might be the next thing you would want to do for the MAB in terms of service enhancing services or delivering services in a different way? And I used to say, I just have to listen to Irene tell me what to do, and then I just go, what to do it. So she was really special and influential on, on the the, the, the, the, the enhancement of the client services at the Mab. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How old is Irene now? I think she's in her 90s. Paul Gareau: I, I know she's in her 90s. She's definitely in her 90s and still still going strong, really going strong and still very active. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Don't mess with her, though, a. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No no no. Paul Gareau: No. But I mean, you know, you always know where you stand with Irene. And you know, she's always right. It's the other thing with Irene. So, you know, you need to listen and take your advice very seriously. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Paul Gareau: And just somebody just on a personal note, she was just such a great person to work with. I mean you know, you're sitting at boards of directors and other places where, you know, it can be challenging at times if you're dealing with government bodies or whatever. And she was just a, for me was just a terrific support. And I really appreciate everything she brought to our organization and to me personally. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, this interview is really it's so nostalgic. You know, there's so many memories of so many people. It's it's unbelievable, you know? Paul Gareau: Yeah. So many, so many good people. And, and you're right. We get talking. It's like when I run into other either employees or volunteers or clients from from our many years of having been at NAB. And yeah, you just bring up the names of people who are so special and so important in so many different ways. So yeah, really, really a special place. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So the clock is starting to wind down, but I have this question for you. Surely one of the decisions you made as executive director was to open two satellite satellite offices to decentralize services delivery. Why was bringing service closer to the people who needed them so important to you, and what did clients tell you about the difference that that change made in their daily lives? Paul Gareau: Yeah. The the decision to open satellite offices was important to me because it was important to the clients that we serve. The clients were really looking. Much looking towards having services made available closer to their homes because. Many lived far from the main offices and we were just talking about Irene. Irene was a champion of this of this dossier. She felt very strongly that we should be looking at bringing some of our services closer to different locations to allow greater accessibility for, for our clientele. And we were, we were able to do so. And to be fair we did it in collaboration with other service centers. And they were very welcoming to have us set up shop in their, in their in their places of service delivery. And that was we were well received, I think because we were well known in Montreal. But it was really, it was a cooperation at a number of levels that allowed us to proceed. And the feedback from the clients was, was extremely favorable. You know, accessing the services locally was I think it was especially appreciated by people who had mobility problems or seniors who had difficulty traveling further to get the services and programs. So we couldn't do everything. We couldn't offer all our services in the, in the satellite offices, but we especially offered the low vision service and other services. As you know, we used to do home visits when necessary. So between the combination of the satellite offices and the home visits, we really were able to reach clients who either couldn't come to the Mab or who, for whatever reason, it was important to deliver services in the home, sometimes for orientation and mobility, as you might remember, or activities of daily living. Any home adaptations, it really required a home visit. So between, as I say, between the satellite offices and the home visits, we felt pretty comfortable about being able to get the the services that our clients required in the location that was, was, was appropriate for them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, the lab really played a large part in so many of our lives, isn't it? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Paul Gareau: It did. It did. I think it still does. Has a has a special place in people's hearts. Yeah. Who who were there? Yeah. But Yes. Pretty special. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The mom also ran the Gilman residence for blind and vision impaired seniors and a seniors day center, the Philip E Layton School on on site itinerant teaching for integrated students and in employment integration program, a Braille production unit and a talking book library. What did it mean to you personally to lead an organization whose services touched a person from earliest childhood, all the way through their senior years? How did that feel to you? Paul Gareau: Yeah, I was I was just honored to be part of the Mabee family and so proud of the vast array of services that we had available at the Mab. And in terms of leadership. I mean, I think the leadership of the organization was shared among so many people. Different doses, different people took the took the lead. It was really a collaborative approach between as we were just talking about Irene as head of the users committee, you know, our management, our volunteers, our staff, our clients all had, you know, input and took on responsibilities in getting things done and identifying areas that we needed to develop. So it was really a it was really a place of collaboration. I think too, in terms of the, you mentioned the breadth of the services, you know, the client, as, you know, the, the client, you know, the needs of the client as a student are very different than those of a working adult or a senior. Yeah. And the, the Mab had programs and services to, to meet every need. I think the goal was, wasn't to create a client dependency, but you could speak to that better than me, I think. But to be there with what was required at each stage of life. So from your point of view, you know. I mean, I think some people look at the range of service saying, well, you're trying to get, you know, you're looking at having people being reliant on the Mab. And I never felt that way. I felt we're there as a resource to be there. If a client needs something and that those needs, those needs might change, you know, over time. Is that was that your experience or. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Paul Gareau: How did you feel it? How did it feel to you? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The MLB to me was a resource. The MLB was a support, a group of supportive staff members and volunteers. I never thought of the MLB as taking my independence from me. They showed me how to be independent, you know, and even like as a student gosh, you know, all the services I took advantage of and, you know, you had volunteers involved with, you know, I want to read to you, I want to do this for you. I want to do that for. And I think, I can't believe this, you know, I felt like a child in, in, in, in a candy shop. You know what I mean? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Paul like, right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I never, I didn't have to ask very much. People were offering and that that's the way it was. I mean, I think even you read some stuff to me. Come on now Everybody chipped in to read. I mean, and you even had Bill Rudkin's father reading to me. Right, right. And Linda Smoak's husband reading to me. Susan Russell's husband. Like, so it was volunteers and their spouses. Paul Gareau: You're bringing up the names from the past that I remember so fondly, you know? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: I think I think you're right. I think more important than the range of the services that were available. And they were there were a lot. Never, never as much as we would want. But, you know, they were pretty good with what we had. And we certainly had a wide range. But I think really the important part was the people, the staff, the clients, the volunteers who made up the Mab. Yeah. And who always, you know, wanted to be there for each other when when they were needed. So. Yeah. Just it's just fascinating to hear it from, from, from your perspective. And looking back it solidifies, you know, what my feeling is and what my, my vision was of, of what was what it was like to be there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I always remember Chris, my friend Chris. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know what? We will all go into Gilman and we'll all live there. And I had she had this dream. And now the dream is gone because Gilman is closed. And I said, so Chris, what's the next. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Paul Gareau: What's what's the plan now? Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What's the plan, Chris? But she said, you know, she honestly thought that we would all be living in Gilman. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know. Paul Gareau: It's strangely it's a nice thought. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. In some ways it is. It is. Yeah. Paul Gareau: Unfortunately, Gilman fell by the wayside. And yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So now that you're retired and this is my final question to you, in addition to supporting the Habs as we both do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What, what's you know, what's your vision like? What what are you thinking? Where are you going? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well. Paul Gareau: Since I retired and I, I found myself, I took a little time off just to to have some downtime after a pretty hectic pretty hectic job. And then I got to. I got a little itchy feet. So I went into the resort and I became a consultant in strategic planning for health and social service establishments in Montreal. And that was really interesting. And it was, it was a lot of fun. It's always, it's always good when you can pick and choose your dossiers, you know, if you like the dossier and you like the institution, you know, you can take the job. If you don't, you don't have to. So that was interesting. Right. And I realized that you know, doing just the strategic plan, then you get asked to do a feasibility study around the strategic plan. And then if the strategic plan is accepted by the board, then sometimes you get asked to oversee the implementation of the plan. So it became pretty busy fairly quickly. And I realized I was back working five days a week. So I came home one day to my wife and said, no, no, I have to retire again. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Which, which I did. Yes. Paul Gareau: And then I thought I might have something to offer. So I I became involved with a number of boards of directors of non-profit establishments in Montreal and served in different functions. And I found that fascinating. I think, you know, all organizations share the same, many of the same challenges as time goes on. So it's been very interesting. One of them was Pillars Trust, which is a Catholic charity which supports English speaking Catholic parishes in Montreal. So that was, that was very interesting. One, we lived through Covid with them. And you know, I think that we learned a lot. Like, I think like most nonprofits and government organizations, we have to make some decisions quickly. You know, we the board had to go on Zoom and start embracing Microsoft Teams fairly quickly. And interesting little side story is we, we, we were getting calls from parishes saying that they, they couldn't have people couldn't have masks, people couldn't attend mass with Covid times. Right. And so after mulling it over for a while, we decided that we would provide funding for parishes to provide, to get audio visual equipment. They would need to stream masses to to the parishioners during the Covid crisis. And we did that for a number of parishes. And you know, it's, it's something that's stayed on that Covid finished, but the streaming of the masses continues. So some good comes out of it, right? So I think, you know, a lesson we learned from that is one is as a as an organization, keep your keep your eye on the ball, you know, keep your your mission in mind. What is your mission? And secondly, you really need to quickly adjust to changing circumstances. And then thirdly, I think, which we always recognize in retrospect is that every challenge presents an opportunity. And so I think that's what, you know, whether it's pillars or any other organization, I think that's what you have to look at many challenges out there, but they also prevent opportunities. And sometimes it can end up enhancing your services in what you do. So interesting moving forward. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This has been one of the most enjoyable and nostalgic interviews for me, and I am so happy that we've had this opportunity to, you know, sit down and hear from you. And I really appreciate it. I really, really do. Paul Gareau: Well, one last word with someone who is for someone who has been a member of the Mabee family, I just want to and maybe folks are out there just thank them for everything that they've done for so many years. And yeah, you know, I think it's been noted by many people greater than myself that when people come together to work for something bigger than themselves, so much can be accomplished. And I think the Mabee family has over the years proven that to be so. And it's nice to be able to sit down and reminisce with a member of the family. It's been a real joy, and I thank you for the opportunity for us to touch base. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you so much, Paul. And maybe one day I'll see you in Montreal. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I would look forward to it. Paul Gareau: Maybe go to a Habs game. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you so much. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you Paul. Take care now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.