The Curiosity+Courage Podcast

Jeff Carino

Jeff Carino didn’t choose design—it chose him at age ten, watching his father leverage the manual, smelly inks, erasers, markers and tools of design in their Albuquerque home studio. Those moments, seeing something tactile become billboards, storefronts and objects people used every day, locked in Jeff’s trajectory. [Listen to the interview above, or via Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-curiosity-courage-podcast/id1765778657], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/0xfvemDSGPlXB0HziJz4kM?si=61a66b1ebdad4857], or YouTube [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXhAVzSHJOFLoN9nBcxtwAz0yuu02SkvV&si=uWjrKMCzQwUKKdgO] - also embedded below. And if you’re enjoying these conversations, please share a link with someone else.] “As designers, what is the core of what we do? We create meaning. And in order to become a really strong designer... we make meaning that endures. That sticks. And the way we do that and create enduring meaning is with emotional engagement.” - Jeff Carino Jeff’s design philosophy hinges on a blunt truth: Real work endures because it carries emotional weight, not just flawless execution. Artifice is unavoidable in this profession, but artifice without emotional investment becomes empty. These are hard won realizations, earned back when graphic designers literally had their own skin (and sometimes blood) in the game—back when razor blades and rulers and late nights taught lessons. “What does it mean for design when we reduce friction to zero? I think that we have an inherent understanding as creative people that friction has value. That friction imparts meaning into a work.” - Jeff Carino He splits the design world into craft (where friction adds value) and artifice (which audiences tolerate, expect even—stock photos, actors, the whole charade). Remove all the friction and the work risks losing its weight. He thinks the value of design isn’t in flawless surfaces but in emotional resonance—the part that attaches to memory. Increasingly, AI lives in this tension. When it’s 100% right, people respond emotionally as if it were real. When it’s 99%, that last 1% repulses them. The gap matters more than you’d think. “This is the first time in history we have a technology you can talk to that talks back with something specific, contextual, rich, meaningful, and in real time.” - Jeff Carino Technology, in Jeff’s telling, keeps reducing friction. But it also adds more touchpoints, more formats, more complexity disguised as convenience. AI sits right on that edge. AI enabled Jeff to reinvent his entire practice, and leverage tools that automate grunt work. But he’s wary too. AI’s speed invites emotional hollowness. It threatens some categories of creative labor while leaving others irreplaceable. And it raises a bigger question he hasn’t resolved: if meaning requires friction, what happens when the tools make friction disappear? 🤔 One thing you might notice about this podcast, and my Substack newsletter, is that I’m not asking for money. The newsletter, and these conversations, they’re all free to you. If you found this valuable, found it engaging even useful, please spread the word. Share a link with one other person. That’s what matters most. Episode notes: Learn more about Jeff’s work on his personal website [https://www.jeffcarino.com/], his AI consulting website [https://carino-ai.com/] or connect via LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-carino-branding/]. Subscriptions are free; your attention is invaluable. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit timbrunelle.substack.com [https://timbrunelle.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Kevin Swanepoel

What if the only way you got to eat was by making art and design people believed in? And from that starting point, imagine becoming arguably one of the most influential humans in global creativity. [Listen to the interview above, or via Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-curiosity-courage-podcast/id1765778657], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/0xfvemDSGPlXB0HziJz4kM?si=61a66b1ebdad4857], or YouTube [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXhAVzSHJOFLoN9nBcxtwAz0yuu02SkvV&si=uWjrKMCzQwUKKdgO] - also embedded below. And if you’re enjoying these conversations, please share a link with someone else.] I first met Kevin Swanepoel (LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinswanepoel]) in May 2000. That evening, I had no idea how he’d arrived in New York or birthed One Show Interactive. All I knew was, he was handing me a two-and-a-half pound, gold-colored trophy, and it had the words “Best of Show” inscribed next to my name. That small moment had a tremendous impact on my career. And it wouldn’t have happened if Kevin hadn’t put food on the table by airbrushing surfboards in Durban, South Africa. As CEO and President of The One Club for Creativity, Kevin now leads an organization which has been educating and provoking the industry of ideas and their craft for over 50 years. In 2025, its dominant competition, the One Show, received almost 19,000 global entries spanning disciplines including Film & Video, Design, PR, Experiential & Immersive, Social Media, Interactive, Creative Effectiveness, and now Creative Use of AI. This is the story of Kevin’s journey from an artist making rent with his art, to becoming a design agency owner, to being one of the first people to leverage, then sell Apple computers to fellow creatives across the sub-Sahara, and through coding skill, to wind up transforming the legendary One Club for Art and Copy. Primarily Kevin’s is a story of curiosity, and a daring to try and build what’s next. “If you are not an inquisitive person who’s constantly learning, you’re just going backwards.” - Kevin Swanepoel We talk about the business of creativity, creative competitions, and the value found in evaluation. I recall my first portfolio being shaped entirely by days spent analyzing the 1988-91 One Show advertising annuals. In these heavy, glossy collections I was coached to take ten Post-It Notes and “judge the judging.” Which ideas were my favorites, and why was that? What could I discern from those ten ideas which might help me make “the 11th ad?” “The great (creativity) judge is somebody who’s sympathetic with the work, who looks for the good in it.” - Kevin Swanepoel Today, the One Club is embracing and cultivating an incredible diversity of talent and technique. The organization is deeply invested in sparking the careers of people who mirror Kevin’s history—helping them find likeminds and opportunities for success. They’re also embracing AI. Both the One Show and the Art Directors Club competitions have welcomed AI-infused creativity. As we were talking, Kevin shared insights from a recent round of creative judging for AI-informed work. Judges sought out ideas which were only possible because of AI. “You’ve got to partner with [AI]… and hang with it. Don’t be seduced by the tool—judge the idea. But test what’s possible.” - Kevin Swanepoel After we finished talking, I looked through my bookcase. And there it was. Volume 1 of the One Show Interactive — Kevin’s idea which, one could argue, entirely transformed how the ad industry thought about, embraced, and evolved its definition of creativity. The work inside is dated, of course. But that first effort laid a foundation which prevails today. Thanks for having the guts to make that happen, Kevin. Episode Notes The One Club for Creativity website [https://www.oneclub.org/homepage/] Creative Week [https://creativeweek.com/] is May 12-16, 2025 in New York City, including events for the Art Director’s Club awards [https://www.oneclub.org/adcawards/], Type Director’s Club awards [https://enter.tdc.org/], One Show awards [https://oneshow.org/] ceremony, and Young Ones [https://www.oneclub.org/education/youngones/]. And they’re doing incredible work guiding the next generation [https://www.oneclub.org/education/] of creative talent, including the One Creator Lab [https://onecreatorlab.org/], now in its fifth cohort, training creativity for a world fueled by TikTok (note previous Creativity+Courage guest Ashley Rutstein has been an instructor). Subscriptions are free; your attention is invaluable. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit timbrunelle.substack.com [https://timbrunelle.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

James Brown

How many of us have heard that inner voice, and ignored it? Or perhaps even more daunting—heard it, and took action? [Listen to the interview above, or via Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-curiosity-courage-podcast/id1765778657], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/0xfvemDSGPlXB0HziJz4kM?si=61a66b1ebdad4857], or YouTube [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXhAVzSHJOFLoN9nBcxtwAz0yuu02SkvV&si=uWjrKMCzQwUKKdgO] - also embedded below. And if you’re enjoying these conversations, please share a link with someone else.] I’ve been waiting to reveal this conversation with my friend, and meditation teacher, James Brown (LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/notthatjamesbrown/]) until spring begins to sprung. Sure, it snowed a few days ago here in Minneapolis, but today it’s going to be 60 degrees out. The time is ripe. For me, the spring season conjures moments of surprise and change in our lives. For months now, the ground has been frozen. Suddenly, a memory, a seed or an insight pops out and suggests a new course of action. That’s kind of what transpired for James as he made a pivot from decades playing the role of advertising copywriter and creative director—worshiping the trends and cultures of an industry—to hearing a voice, and slowly turning towards a different path. “I think that inner navigational beacon, that voice, that whatever we want to call it is present in all people. But we get really good at drowning it out or ignoring it or talking ourselves out of it.” - James Brown James and I first met in St. Louis, MO working as copywriters for the TBWA Switzer Wolfe agency in that era just before the Internet arrived. And then I witnessed his journey and transformation from afar. We often spoke over the decades about the business of creativity, the nuance of process, people, and agency culture. In this interview James helps illuminate a constant challenge for all of us, especially those who create new ideas where none existed. This is the struggle to receive and adapt to criticism—to dance the delicate choreography of relationships, politics and the unknown. To balance our need for success with an addiction to certainty. “There is obviously, like a very understandable and instinctive clutching to what we want to have happen... And in the process of saving [an idea], you kill it, right? And you create something that no one is proud of. It doesn’t work.” - James Brown A solution, James suggests, is to recognize there are always more and potentially better ideas; and to find a graceful way to remain faithful to those ideas in which you truly believe. There are no easy answers, there is only the practice of doing it, over and over. “Creativity is mysterious. It’s sort of like the difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is rules... spirituality is finding out for yourself what’s true. So spirituality embraces the mystery, creativity embraces the mystery.” - James Brown We cover a lot of ground in the hour or so of our two-part conversation. As the intro suggests, this episode took place in two sections, separated by an unsuccessful but suggestive tsunami. For me, this conversation gives permission to think broadly about how any of us creates, where we find and nurture our creativity, and how we can prepare and protect ourselves to receive more inspiration. Are we dry tinder, or are we damp moss? “Spark is a good way of thinking about [inspiration]. Because if a spark falls on dry tinder, it will start a fire. If it falls on damp moss, nothing happens.” - James Brown Along the path, we discuss a familiar favorite of mine—the three forces of Vedic philosophy: Creativity, Maintenance and Destruction. And James suggests an intriguing way of thinking about AI as it relates to creativity, art and human history. Thanks for coming along. 🤔 One thing you might notice about this podcast, and my Substack newsletter, is that I’m not asking for money. The newsletter, and these conversations, they’re all free to you. If you found this valuable, found it engaging even useful, please spread the word. Share a link with one other person. That’s what matters most. Episode Notes 🎶 James has been listening to “Fix It” by Lady Blackbird (YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-w37kmtKA], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/track/39CoZnCSOHWy35kBaLIvb6]), and he references Bill Evans’ classic “Peace Piece” (YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIg], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/track/58yFroDNbzHpYzvicaC0de?si=6f97c4ef7473471a]). And I mention a Robert Glasper quote [https://www.npr.org/2017/04/19/524393926/jazz-is-the-mother-of-hip-hop-how-sampling-connects-genres] about jazz being the mother of hip hop. James’ weekly newsletter, Monday Meditations, is available here [https://vedicpathmeditation.us2.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=068ab9deca9cf2a7b848778c9&id=47594babb9]. You can learn about his approach to teaching meditation here [https://www.vedicpathmeditation.com/]. And his online meditation curriculum, called Flow, is available here [https://www.flowmeditation.cc/] which includes frequent online group meditation options. Subscriptions are free; your attention is invaluable. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit timbrunelle.substack.com [https://timbrunelle.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Dave Weist

Just imagine if he’d stuck with selling bonds. Very few of us wake up convinced we need to be a creative person, and then stick with it. No, some of us venture off into corporate finance for a bit first. But then creativity comes calling. [Listen to the interview above, or via Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-curiosity-courage-podcast/id1765778657], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/0xfvemDSGPlXB0HziJz4kM?si=61a66b1ebdad4857], or YouTube [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXhAVzSHJOFLoN9nBcxtwAz0yuu02SkvV&si=uWjrKMCzQwUKKdgO]. And if you’re enjoying these conversations, please share a link with someone else.] When I first met Dave Weist (website [https://www.daveweist.com/], LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-weist-579b49102/]) I was convinced he was older, wiser and earned a lot more money than I did. Some of these things might have been true. Today he’s Hill Holliday’s [https://www.hhcc.com/] Chief Creative Officer, so I know most of them definitely are true. Dave understands humans, especially creative ones, and has a keen sense of how they function and how to organize them effectively. His focus is on the power of individuality. “I need your brain here. Like I really want you here. Call it a little axiom, but great minds don’t all think alike. So I need you to pressure test this with me. I need us to disagree a little bit.” - Dave Weist It’s hard won, valuable trait. And I’m thrilled he made time to talk about what he knows. [Like they say] “Be yourself because everyone else is taken. I’m definitely always preaching that in a creative department. And you have to remind yourself sometimes too, you know, that that’s ultimately what it is. Because the ultimate goal is, I need that—I need your fingerprints on the work for it to really connect.” - Dave Weist We covered the waterfront, from how to sell audacious ideas, to the three (very different) roles of the Executive Creative Director. “When you become an executive creative director, you have to acknowledge when you go into a room which role you’re playing. Are you the executive where you observe things from a 30,000-foot view, the creative digging around for solutions with the team, or the director working to bring a creative vision to life?” - Dave Weist There’s lots of useful, inspiring insights in this episode. I hope you enjoy it. Subscriptions are free; but your attention is invaluable This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit timbrunelle.substack.com [https://timbrunelle.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Jane Roper

The stereotypical advertising writer always has a novel on the side, always unfinished. The advertising writer Jane Roper [https://substack.com/profile/7069361-jane-roper] (website [https://janeroper.com/], LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-roper-6484a6/]) has already published two novels, and her third is underway. [Listen to the interview above, or via Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-curiosity-courage-podcast/id1765778657], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/0xfvemDSGPlXB0HziJz4kM?si=61a66b1ebdad4857], or YouTube [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXhAVzSHJOFLoN9nBcxtwAz0yuu02SkvV&si=uWjrKMCzQwUKKdgO]. And if you’re enjoying these conversations, please share a link with someone else.] I first met Jane at the Partners & Simons agency in Boston. Then we collaborated on the VW advertising business at Arnold. In this conversation we discussed the importance of briefing (as useful for marketing as to inspire fiction). “I want a creative brief that isn’t just a dumping ground of information. I want to know why [the audience] wouldn’t choose this product or offering—what are the objections that we need to overcome?” - Jane Roper And we addressed the challenge of writing novels, the commitment to muscling out the words every single day, despite the challenge of work and family. Jane finds her time in the mornings, before the day overwhelms. She’s not enamored with or driven by a muse. She just puts in the work. All while recognizing the perils of consumption, the ever-present smartphone. “I think it’s so important [not to] fill every down moment looking at our phones. Because then I’m not leaving space for the ideas to come in. You’ve got a daydream, you’ve got to be bored. Maybe that’s why the shower moments and walking ideas come—they happen because I’m not filling every second with something. I’m leaving space for ideas to come in.” - Jane Roper Let’s be honest, Jane’s not a huge fan of AI. We talk at length about ethics, creator rights, and job replacement. Where AI does intrigue her is when it can unlock new approaches to creativity. “I find it exciting [when AI is] bringing in a new capability rather than trying to replace something human... when it’s trying to replace human activity, then I find AI depressing.” - Jane Roper Rooted in Jane’s work—from advertising to novel writing—is a keen sense of balance, where writer and audience find room for each other, and the magic happens. Episode Notes Jane’s watching season 3 of Somebody Somewhere [https://www.hbo.com/somebody-somewhere]. Jane mentions short story writer Frank Conroy [https://litcity.lib.uiowa.edu/person/frank-conroy/] at the Iowa Writers Workshop. And the advertising writer Kara Goodrich [https://www.karagoodrich.com/]. Subscriptions are free, but your attention is invaluable. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit timbrunelle.substack.com [https://timbrunelle.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]