The Institute’s Leading Edge Podcast

About The Institute’s Leading Edge Podcast

The Institute’s Leading Edge Podcast is where forward-thinking Automotive Service and Repair Shop Owners come to sharpen their skills, expand their knowledge, and gain an edge in today’s competitive market. Hosted by The Institute’s team of seasoned consultants and leaders with decades of real-world experience, you’ll get direct, actionable advice tailored to the unique challenges of running and growing an auto repair business. Each episode feels like a one-on-one coaching session. Whether it’s improving profitability, building stronger leadership skills, mastering marketing, developing your team, or planning for long-term success, you’ll find strategies you can implement right away. Have a question about your shop? Send it in, and we’ll answer it on the show.

205 - The Diagnostic Fee Debate: Ask Me Anything with Cecil Bullard and Lucas Underwood

205 - The Diagnostic Fee Debate: Ask Me Anything with Cecil Bullard and Lucas Underwood May 13, 2026 - 00:56:50 Show Summary: Lucas Underwood and Cecil Bullard explain why diagnostic testing should never be treated as free work. They discuss how weak pay systems and poor communication have lowered the value of technicians across the industry. The conversation compares automotive testing to the medical field and explains why customers should expect to pay for professional diagnostics. They also cover technician growth customer education leadership and the need for stronger professionalism in repair shops. The episode ends with a call for the industry to raise standards and focus on creating long term value. Host(s): Lucas Underwood, Shop Owner of [https://lnautorepair.com/]L&N Performance Auto Repair [https://lnautorepair.com/]and Changing the Industry Podcast [https://changingtheindustrypodcast.com/] Cecil Bullard, Founder of The Institute [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] Show Highlights: [01:00:25] – Customers understand testing better than diagnostics. [01:03:09] – Proper testing requires skill experience and expensive equipment. [01:04:04] – Shops lose profit when diagnostic time is given away. [01:06:47] – Flat rate pay discourages advanced diagnostic skill development. [01:12:10] – Lucas explains his Level One testing process. [01:14:45] – Cecil compares automotive testing to medical diagnostics. [01:19:22] – Skipping testing leads to poor repairs and wasted money. [01:31:06] – Lucas discusses leadership responsibility and coaching influence. [01:39:40] – Accurate testing saves money and prevents unnecessary repairs. [01:50:16] – The industry must value professionalism and technician expertise. In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode. 👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/cUCa2tz_G1c [https://youtu.be/cUCa2tz_G1c] Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this! Links & Resources: * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com]. Episode Transcript: [01:00:00:01 - 01:00:11:22] Lucas Underwood Good afternoon, everybody. My name's Lucas Underwood from Changing the Industry podcast. I'm also a shop owner. And this afternoon, I'm here with the man, the myth, the legend, Mr. Cecil Bullard. Cecil, how you doing, buddy? [01:00:11:22 - 01:00:14:10] Cecil Bullard Howdy, howdy. I'm great, Lucas. As always. [01:00:14:10 - 01:00:24:14] Lucas Underwood Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So we've got some deep dive topics for the day. I'm excited about it because this is a hot button series of topics. So let's dig right into it. [01:00:25:15 - 01:00:53:00] Lucas Underwood Now, now, Cecil, we're talking diagnostics. We're talking testing. We're talking charging for it. But you know something? Very, very early on when I first started kind of working on improving my business, I went to ASTA for the first time and I got into some training classes. It was drilled into my head from the word go. You don't sell diagnostics. You sell testing and testing results in a diagnosis. How do you feel about that, Cecil? [01:00:56:10 - 01:00:56:24] Cecil Bullard Who cares? [01:00:58:05 - 01:01:03:19] Cecil Bullard I don't care. Here's the thing. I mean, I sold diagnostics for, I don't know, 25 years. [01:01:03:19 - 01:01:04:04] Lucas Underwood Yeah. [01:01:04:04 - 01:01:52:00] Cecil Bullard We're going to diagnose your car. Now, testing actually, we keep having these people that come into our industry and they come up with these great new words. And so let's not call it green anymore. Let's call it, I don't know, pumpkin pie or whatever. Who knows? Who cares? Right. And so if you're selling pumpkin posse. Yeah. If you're, if you're selling, if you're, if you're good at selling diagnostics, who cares? Right. This is the one instance where testing probably makes more sense only because the consumer probably understands testing a lot better than they understand diagnostics. Okay. And, and so, you know, I'm, I'm, if I'm going to go to the doctor, they're going to run a series of tests. [01:01:53:03 - 01:02:38:10] Cecil Bullard If those series of tests don't give them the information they need, then they're going to run another series of tests or more tests. And, and so I think that at least because of the medical industry and the, and the work they've done, the testing probably makes more sense at this particular point. And if we made that shift in the industry, would it make it easier for your customers, your clients to understand what you're, what you're doing and why there's a cost to it? And, and the answer is probably yes. So, you know, as far as calling, you know, technicians, mechanics or mechanics technicians or specialists or whatever, I don't care what you call me, you know, just call, make sure you call me. As [01:02:38:10 - 01:02:40:16] Lucas Underwood long as you pay the bill when you're done, I don't care. [01:02:40:16 - 01:02:41:09] Cecil Bullard Yeah. [01:02:41:09 - 01:02:42:09] Lucas Underwood Yeah. [01:02:43:17 - 01:02:44:16] Lucas Underwood Go ahead. Go ahead. [01:02:44:16 - 01:03:09:03] Cecil Bullard I just, we keep coming up with new words, thinking we're going to change the game when we're not really changing the game. The problem is that we don't value ourselves as an industry or our time as technicians or as mechanics and we never have, and we still don't value that time. And that creates a lot of the unrest in our industry and a lot of the financial issues in our industry. [01:03:09:03 - 01:03:45:15] Lucas Underwood I agree a thousand percent Cecil. I completely agree with you. But here, here's where I'm at on the testing thing. Okay. And a couple of thoughts behind this process. When, when I bring a client into my shop, I start with a level one testing routine. Now look, if you've never tested a car, if you've never done the diagnostic process yourself, it is very easy to say, well, hey, I'm just going to wrap that into the price. It's not that big of a deal. No, it's a talent. There is skill associated. There is knowledge associated. There's tooling associated with it. If you've never been the one to do it, you just don't understand how complex the process can be. Okay. [01:03:45:15 - 01:03:52:14] Cecil Bullard I'm talking to a shop yesterday. They have $189 posted labor rate. [01:03:52:14 - 01:03:53:07] Lucas Underwood Yeah. [01:03:53:07 - 01:03:55:29] Cecil Bullard Okay. They have an effective labor rate of 123. [01:03:57:26 - 01:04:00:08] Cecil Bullard Now they're wonder why there's no money in the bank. [01:04:00:08 - 01:04:01:00] Lucas Underwood Yeah. [01:04:01:00 - 01:04:02:13] Cecil Bullard And you know, we're talking about. [01:04:02:13 - 01:04:04:06] Lucas Underwood Everybody they're higher than everybody in town. [01:04:04:06 - 01:05:44:14] Cecil Bullard How many comebacks do you have? Oh, we don't have any, we have hardly any comebacks at all. Okay. And by the way, that's the answer. 99.9% of the time, we don't have any comebacks. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. It's not that how many, how many DVI's do you give away without charging that to your customer? Yeah, we do DVI's for free for our clients. Okay. All right. How much, how many times does your master technician, your A-Tech have an hour to quote unquote run tests or diagnose a car and take two days? Oh man, that happens a lot. Okay. Now we've, we've, we've circled in on one of the main reasons that the effective labor rate. And by the way, it's like $27,000 a month for this shop because their effective labor is so far off of their posted rate. And they, their A-Tech is again and again and again. If it's so easy to do this quote unquote diagnosis, anybody can do it in half an hour, anybody can do it in an hour. I cannot, you know, you got these ego tacks out there and I'm going to get blasted, but they're out there and they're like, Oh, well anybody should be able to do that in an hour. You know, we should be able to diagnose this code in an hour that code. And yet hundreds, if not thousands of guys are spending three, four, five, seven, 10 hours on a car, trying to figure out what's really going on. And, and how does that not come together? My ego is being in the way of being profitable and making money. Right? Yeah. Then I'm going to come up to the shop owner who's cheating me. [01:05:44:14 - 01:06:47:25] Lucas Underwood Well, so a couple of things here, right? First of all, let's just, let's put the elephant in the middle of the room and beat it. Okay. Because the reality of the situation is this, the pay systems and the way that we have set up the testing routines have not rewarded technicians. Okay. Now I get that there are thousands of ways to obtain reward and to find meaning and purpose in life, right? We go back to Michael Smith's leadership in the last. It's not all about money. It shouldn't be right. Right. But I'm going to tell you right now, if you don't pay somebody for it, they're not going to develop the skill. Right? I mean, let's just be real about it. You go and you work in the dealership and you get paid 0.25. You get paid 0.5 to go and do said testing that you know is going to take you an hour and a half or two hours to do it. Is it fair? One, no, it's not. B, there's no system. They're, they see them giving it away. Okay. When, when someone sees you giving their work away, it says to them, I don't value this. Well, we've, I don't see value in it. [01:06:47:25 - 01:07:11:22] Cecil Bullard Yeah. That's, that's one of the other issues we've devalued ourselves over and over and over again. And we continue to do that. You've got an owner that used to be a tech and for him or her, it, oh, it was easy for me. You know, every car that came in, I could figure it out in an hour. And, and then, but they're not the one figuring it out. Yeah. I have a, I have some companies that are, um, uh, [01:07:12:29 - 01:09:26:29] Cecil Bullard like restoration. So that what they're doing, there isn't quote unquote a book time for right there. They're sometimes making components and, and taking something off of a vehicle was never intended for this vehicle and, and re retooling it and et cetera. And we're timing materials. So when your timing materials, um, what's better to have the worst tech doing the job or to have the best tech doing the job. And if you do do that, you're going to have to do it. And if you do have the best tech doing the job, is that, is that hurting the shop, but helping the customer? Is that hurting the tech, but helping the client? Right. So yeah, our, our, um, the way we pay and obviously, you know, I'm for a pretty decent base pay. Right. So you're going to be here. You got to know that you're going to have, you know, food at home and a shelter over your head. And once in a while it would be nice if I could take my wife out to dinner or whatever. Right. And you got to know that. And then I think you need to have performance enhancement stuff. And if you are excelling in certain areas in certain ways that I can earn more money, I can make a bigger paycheck. And if you can blend those two, which is what we do, then I think you have the best of both worlds. But, but it doesn't, it will never matter if we don't, if we continue to devalue what we do. We do this techs all the time because, you know, we'll go, "Oh, I know exactly what that is." And then you have to have a lot of money. And I think that's, that's what I think that is. But wait a minute, why do you know exactly what that is? Well, you're some experience. So I have, I don't know, 252 scars on my hands. The reason I know this is because when I'm sitting in church and I'm bored, I'm OCD. So I'm counting the scars. And I've done it a hundred times, right? A thousand times. And where did those 252 scars come from? Working on cars. They came from reaching up under a dash and, and getting cut. And they came from, you know, a bunch of cars. And I think that's, that's, that's the reason why I'm here. sized them as they mostly were. Is because, uh, [01:09:27:29 - 01:09:49:02] Cecil Bullard I work overtime and I had a lot of hard work around them. And then you do the whole thing, pushed into that and I were like, Oh my God, this is terrifying. and, uh, you know, and there at the first time, you're someone else's medical Vancouver department. weren't born with it, right? You, you,u paid for it in blood, sweat and tears. You paid for it in extra hours that you didn't get paid for, you paid for it in real blood. Right? [01:09:50:15 - 01:10:17:11] Cecil Bullard And yet we constantly, we disregard that as technicians. I would say it's epidemic in our industry. And then you have your ATEX who don't understand why the C-TECH can't do it as fast or as good as they can. Right? Well, I don't understand. This is so easy. Well, go back to when you were learning. It wasn't easy when you were learning it. Right? And until we... Absolutely. [01:10:18:16 - 01:10:30:04] Cecil Bullard Until we find a way to kind of value ourselves and our time, that's what we have. Could you imagine a lawyer, like lawyer giving you 30 minutes without charging you? [01:10:30:04 - 01:10:33:09] Lucas Underwood Let me just tell you something. They don't ever. [01:10:33:09 - 01:10:35:01] Cecil Bullard No, they don't. [01:10:35:01 - 01:11:14:29] Lucas Underwood The one I've been working with here recently is fire. I mean, so good. We've got two right now that I work with on pretty much a daily basis. And there's a lot of things that they will just talk to us and say, "All right." And then they roll that into what they're doing. And I understand that, right? Because it's too much to every telephone conversation. Every second. Yeah. But I'm going to tell you right now, I've got a bad one and two good ones. And the two good ones, buddy, I don't even care. I don't flinch when that bill comes in because it's like, a great example is one of them, they're in another state and he calls me the other day and he said, "These people that we're going to battle with." [01:11:16:01 - 01:11:32:03] Lucas Underwood Two years ago, they were in a civil case and they accidentally released a document and I found that document and it is your everything you need to get what you want from them. And it's right there. Yeah. And he went through thousands of documents. [01:11:32:03 - 01:11:36:16] Cecil Bullard A few hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, "Yeah, you're worth your money, man. [01:11:36:16 - 01:11:52:07] Lucas Underwood Whatever you need to do. Send me the bill." Yeah. And so here's the big thing for me and I've dealt with a lot of shop owners and I talked to a lot of techs, a lot of shop owners on a daily basis. I talked to probably six or seven already today. [01:11:53:07 - 01:12:09:14] Lucas Underwood First of all, the main issue that I see is the people who have never done it don't value it because they don't understand it. And so there's a lot of these shop owners who went and they just bought a shop and they just say, "Well, a car goes to tech, tech tells me what to do, car fixed." [01:12:10:14 - 01:12:50:23] Lucas Underwood And all they see is the time associated with it. They don't understand the talent. They don't understand the skill. They don't understand the logistics of what has to happen to properly repair that automobile or to find out what's wrong with it. And so what I started doing in my shop season, and you tell me if this is right or wrong, I start with a level one testing routine. It has one hour on it and they get the basic data. It's a code read, it's fuel trends, it's data acquisition, it's confirm the client's concern, determine where it's at on the car, get me some base data. And if you can figure out in that hour, which about 90% of all cases they're able to, then great. It's an hour. We roll on with it. Typically they're out in half an hour to 45 minutes. [01:12:50:23 - 01:12:59:07] Cecil Bullard And maybe this is just coming in my head at the moment. Maybe what we're really doing in that first hour is creating a testing plan. [01:12:59:07 - 01:13:00:19] Lucas Underwood Well, that's what I was getting ready to say. [01:13:00:19 - 01:13:01:22] Cecil Bullard Or a diagnostic plan. [01:13:01:22 - 01:13:05:20] Lucas Underwood That's exactly what happens if it is something advanced. [01:13:06:21 - 01:13:30:12] Lucas Underwood And so step two, that technician comes to me and they say, Lucas, here's the data I have collected. It tells me that I am looking at an issue that is in X circuit because it says circuit high and I know it's not the component and I know it's not the computer because I've done these two tests. I have to do X to find this. [01:13:30:12 - 01:13:37:01] Cecil Bullard I have to spend this amount of time or I have to run these three tests in order to determine what's really going on. [01:13:37:01 - 01:14:45:03] Lucas Underwood You came back to me with data and you said, here's the test I need to do. Okay. Now, if I go to the doctor, I just want to point this out. If I go to the doctor and I've fallen, I've hit my arm and it's all bruised up and it's all to pieces and I go to that doctor, first of all, I'm going to pay for the visit fee. Okay. So I go into the doctor and they're going to say, Hey, it's a hundred and whatever dollars. The doctor comes in, takes a look and says, Hey, Lucas, I believe you've broken your arm. Now for me to determine the best course of action to correct your concern, I have to do additional testing. That's going to be an X-ray, that's going to be an MRI, that's going to be whatever it is. Now at that point, we'll know what course of action we need to take. Do we have to do surgery? Can we just set it? What do we do next? Right? First of all, they're not giving me an estimate for what's wrong. They're giving me probabilities. They're giving me some idea of where we're headed. But if I went into that doctor's office and they said, man, it looks like your arm hurts. I'm going to have to do some testing. It's going to be about a thousand bucks. Okay. What test are you going to do? Well, I don't know yet. I'm going to figure that out when I get there. I'll let you know. [01:14:45:03 - 01:15:10:13] Cecil Bullard Right. But that's not, that's not kind of how it works. I mean, I was at the doctor yesterday, normal visit. I'm diabetic. So I go twice a year and he says, how are you doing? I paid my $95 coded up, whatever. So he's getting paid, I don't know, $250 for between me and the insurance company. Maybe it's 150 for 10 minutes of his time at most. [01:15:12:09 - 01:16:16:01] Cecil Bullard And he says, oh, well, you're looking great, but I want to send you to this guy because you've got this problem and they need to, we need to figure out what's going on so we can have a course of action. Right. So we know what we're going to do or if we're not going to do anything. And so I paid for him. Now I'm going to go see a quote unquote specialist that will, I'll pay for that visit and then I'll pay for the testing on top of that. And then I'll have a plan to move forward. That's that's you know, we could discuss why are our medical systems out of hand and other things. The process that they do to determine the plan to solve the problem is a good process. They've been doing it for years and years and years. It works. It gets the right answer most of the time, 97% of the time or whatever. Right. And and and we move forward. And yet in our industry, we're like, well, I can't charge anybody for that. [01:16:16:01 - 01:16:23:25] Lucas Underwood Well, I just need to point out to you Cecil. Yeah. That's when you know you over the hill when they start saying, well, we're not going to do anything about this. [01:16:23:25 - 01:16:24:16] Cecil Bullard Yeah. [01:16:25:27 - 01:16:26:03] Lucas Underwood Yeah. [01:16:27:21 - 01:16:30:28] Cecil Bullard Until you can't walk anymore, then we'll think if we need to do something, [01:16:30:28 - 01:16:32:18] Lucas Underwood we'll get you a wheelchair then see. [01:16:32:18 - 01:16:39:16] Cecil Bullard Yeah. Yeah. That'll be great. You can get one of those little things. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. [01:16:39:16 - 01:16:49:19] Lucas Underwood My dear friend Rick white, when he hurt his back had a scooter that they read him around on at Apex and I've never let that go. I just rubbed it in all the time. [01:16:49:19 - 01:17:00:26] Cecil Bullard You know, I had a, I had a foot surgery three years ago before Apex and I was, I was on a scooter for Apex and yeah, not, not fun. I'm really not fun. [01:17:00:26 - 01:17:18:13] Lucas Underwood I bet not. So look, when we talk about this testing thing, I just want to point something out about this because I think it's so important when we look at that medical field, they see value in the test that they're going to do because they know what test needs to be done. [01:17:19:18 - 01:17:52:23] Lucas Underwood They're in charge of charging you for that test, right? They decide what test has to be done. They put it on there. It gets billed to you and then the thing happens, right? Yeah. I think what happens in our industry is there are so many people who do not understand the service advisor and the owner or the service manager do not understand the skill, the talent, the tools, the ability, the time it takes to properly diagnose an automobile. Well, and so it's, it's different for them to stand up there and say, this is $400, but that's why I do the testing routine. [01:17:52:23 - 01:19:21:25] Cecil Bullard That's part of the problem with our industry. So if we look at, at a doctor, a doctor cannot afford to just go set your arm, right? Yeah. The bone is sticking out. You know, I know I've, I've got the scars to prove it, blah, blah, blah. Bone is sticking out. The doctor says we need to do some testing to find out what's going on because we need a course of action. All right. Now, if they had just set my arm at the time because the bone was sticking out, then I wouldn't have use of my wrist. Okay. Because it was, the bone had shifted when it broke. All right. Now, and they needed to find that out. And, and in the medical field, they cannot afford to set that bone and then later have me sue them or come after them because I know I now, I now no longer have use of my wrist in the automotive field. We don't seem to have a problem with, well, that guy wasn't right. Okay. And we, we even, we even, we propagate this idea that there's too many guys out there that aren't right. Well, yeah, because we're not giving them the tools or the necessity to run the testing to be right or the time when you, when you have a free, Oh, by the way, I have an hour. Man, you've spent three hours on that car. [01:19:22:25 - 01:21:03:07] Cecil Bullard How come, how come? What is it? You know, well, let me pull something out of my behind so that I'll get you off my back. And then, well, wait a minute. That guy was wrong. Now the shop is paying for it or the customer is paying for it or whatever, because we didn't do the testing in the front because we didn't value it because we didn't understand the liability that we have on the other side of that. It's a, it's a problem that is bigger than we think. And it's been going on for a very, very long time. Don't get me wrong. There's some guys out there working on cars that shouldn't be working on cars, but there's a lot of guys, when you put someone in a position for their family to starve or them to cheat, what do you think they're going to do? Let their family starve. Yeah, they have to. Right. And so when you're not charging for your text time and, and I don't know if, if Mike is here or not, but if he is Mike, don't tell me you're not charging for diagnostics. If you raised your labor rate, you are charging for your diagnostics. You're just charging for it in a different way. So now we got that out of the way. All right. But if you're not, if you're not charging for your diagnostic and, and you're asking your tech to do that for free, or you're paying for that yourself somewhere, there's a cost. There's either cost to the customer in poor diagnostics or incorrect answers. There's a cost to the, to the, the owner of the company, the company. And if there's a cost to the company, there's a cost to the employees of the company. And that's one of these things why we have techs constantly complaining about how poorly they're treated. You know, is it fair? [01:21:04:12 - 01:21:29:24] Cecil Bullard You call me, Hey Cecil, I've got this Toyota Camry that, you know, 2014 and it's got this weird blah, blah, blah. What's it going to cost? Right? Oh, well, you know, we're going to need to. We need to do some testing. And so we start at $300 and that'll be applied toward the testing. And if we can solve the problem with that, we'll certainly solve the problem. You come in, it's not even a damn Toyota. [01:21:30:24 - 01:21:46:02] Cecil Bullard Right. Yeah. And you show up with a, I don't know, you show up with a Nissan and you don't even know what you're driving and you want me to tell you on the phone what that price is going to be to fix something that I have no idea what it is or, or anything. [01:21:46:02 - 01:21:55:27] Lucas Underwood But our industry set that expectation, right? Our industry has created that expectation in consumers and, and, and we, you know, Dutch is always bust about us being a commodity. [01:21:55:27 - 01:22:24:05] Cecil Bullard Yeah. We keep propagating that. And you know, some of it is because we have egos and our egos won't let us get out of the way of ourselves. And, and, and some of it is because we don't, we don't get it, right? We really don't understand the, the financial aspects of the business or the, the, uh, uh, liability we have or any of the, you know, a few other things. And, and, and some of it's just probably plain ignorance. [01:22:24:05 - 01:22:43:28] Lucas Underwood Okay. Spicy, spicy perspective coming in here. I think some of it is because we're too stupid to have our own thoughts. So we go and we listen to some big wig coach who is in a metropolitan area who has thousands and thousands of clients that they can pull from. And, and we don't realize that what we're doing is basically market manipulation. [01:22:45:00 - 01:23:01:28] Lucas Underwood And, and we don't care that it devalues our industry as a whole. We don't care that it damages our industry because all we care about is making enough money to sell the shop or do whatever we need to do. We don't care who it upsets. We don't care who it hurts because all we care about is our shop. All we care about is the money. [01:23:01:28 - 01:26:37:16] Cecil Bullard I think, um, when you look at, at, at human beings in general, um, certainly there is the trap of I'm only doing what's best for me. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, right now, you know, someone hangs this sweet carrot of if you get 10 locations, you're going to get 16 X and, uh, and they stay. And by the way, you're going to get a really nice VC company that's going to buy your company for top dollar, and then they're going to take care of all your customers and employees, just like you would. Uh, you know what? I will, I was born at night, but not last night. Okay. So, so yeah, we're. And by the way, should we be doing what's best for us? Right. Yeah. So on the, on the chart of, of, um, uh, what's important, uh, my chart is, is Cecil's relationship with Cecil. Okay. Then it's Cecil's relationship with God. Then it's Cecil's relationship with his family. And then it's Cecil's relationship with his business. And then it's Cecil's relationship with everybody else. Right. And the, and the reason why that has become that over the years, because it wasn't always that was because if I'm not happy with me, I won't be happy with anything else or anybody else. I have to like me. I have to understand me. I have to know that with all the, all the warts and all the other stuff, you know, the temper, the whatever, that I'm a good guy and I'm trying to be a good guy and I'm trying to, you know, et cetera. And so I like me and, and then I need to have a relationship with God, whatever that is, so whatever your. You know, you may say there's no God, Cecil. There's a, there's a being or some science or something. Okay. Whatever that is, you have to have a relationship with it. You have to understand how you fit in the world. Right. And then I got to make my wife, uh, mostly happy. Can't make her all happy. Can't make my kids happy, but I got to do my best for my family. And then it's my business because there's an awful lot of responsibility. So with that nature that we have, are we going to look out for ourselves sometimes more than we probably should? Yeah. You know, I think it's, it's inherent. What, what gets me in our industry is that I almost dread going online anymore because 90% of what I'm hearing is negative. Yeah. And, and I, in this industry, this industry has been good to me. All right. Uh, I was, uh, 19 dropped out of college, came home, started as a tech for my dad. I was making 50,000 the first year I was working as a tech and I got news for you. I didn't know squat. Right. And, and then I became a service advisor and a manager and, and eventually I owned shops and sold those. And then I started a coaching company and now we're, you know, we're expanding and doing other things. And, and the industry has got me here. And got me through, I don't 45 year, 45 tough years with four kids. All right. And, and where else can that happen? You know, someone that drops out of college that really knows very little high, high intelligence, high ego, right? But other than that, not much going for me. Uh, and, and I end up here, this is a great industry. There's more opportunity in our industry right now than there's ever been. And you know what, if your owner is treating you like crap, [01:26:38:18 - 01:26:40:11] Cecil Bullard you know, how many shops need a tech, [01:26:41:11 - 01:26:52:14] Cecil Bullard right? And so don't sit in the, excuse me, do not sit in the pile of shit and then complain how stinky it is. Right. Get out, [01:26:53:14 - 01:27:43:19] Cecil Bullard shower yourself off, go get another job somewhere. Because I know right now I could tell 50 shops, if they could find an ATEC, they'd be paying that ATEC as much, almost as much money as they wanted. And probably a lot more than the average in the industry and, and really giving them a great place to work with all the support they need, all the tools, all the equipment, all the education, all the training, et cetera. And then I understand what you were saying about like the coach. Sometimes we have these companies that are telling you what you want to hear. Yeah. Not what you need to hear. Okay. Absolutely. And, and, and I think, you know, it's probably a good thing that I'm not God, frankly, cause I don't have the patience or the understanding and I might do some, [01:27:44:24 - 01:28:15:15] Cecil Bullard I might do some really crazy bad things because there are people in our industry that, you know, if I had the, if it was up to me, they wouldn't be in our industry, but that competition, that, that knowing that that's out there drives me harder every day, right? Yeah. It makes me want the Institute to do better, to do more, to, to have more impact, to, to help more people be successful. Right. [01:28:15:15 - 01:28:34:29] Lucas Underwood Here's the thing is that those people, okay, let's think about this for a minute. They know, right? Those people are intelligent enough to know what they're doing. They're intelligent enough to know what the outcome is. Um, Mike Allen says he wants a list of people that sees with Smike. Mike's at the very top of it. [01:28:34:29 - 01:28:37:05] Cecil Bullard No, he's not. He's like fifth on the list. [01:28:38:17 - 01:28:38:23] Lucas Underwood Okay. [01:28:39:28 - 01:28:43:19] Lucas Underwood Um, uh, now I need to, oh man, this is going down a dark tunnel here. [01:28:45:20 - 01:28:56:15] Lucas Underwood But I, you know, look, I'm just going to say like, I think that, that those people know, and they know that the impact they're making on the industry. We pick on Mike. Mike really does. [01:28:56:15 - 01:29:01:00] Cecil Bullard Mike's a easy target. Thanks. And thank you for being that target, Mike. [01:29:01:00 - 01:29:09:08] Lucas Underwood Yeah, absolutely. And he's, he is working. I see his efforts behind the scenes all day long of like teaching people and trying to lift them up and, [01:29:09:08 - 01:29:27:23] Cecil Bullard and, but you, you have a big responsibility when you have the ear of the industry. Okay. And if you're going to be an industry influencer, there's a responsibility, not just to provoke, but to educate and to help. [01:29:28:28 - 01:29:39:26] Cecil Bullard Okay. And if you're, if you're provoking for the sake of, um, uh, hits and likes and crap like that, that's problematic. [01:29:39:26 - 01:29:42:05] Lucas Underwood That is not why Mike's doing that. [01:29:42:05 - 01:29:44:15] Cecil Bullard No, I know what Mike's up to. [01:29:44:15 - 01:30:00:18] Lucas Underwood I, yeah, what Mike is up to is he's just trying to meet his brother's level of this success. I mean, his brother was this super successful pilot and he did all these amazing things and Mike has always felt a little bit less than because of that. And so Mike is working really hard to get to the next level. [01:30:00:18 - 01:30:39:16] Cecil Bullard Do you know where we, do you know what we have to compare ourselves to? If you do this, right? You compare yourself to yourself. That's it. Amen. I, if I, I will never be the man my dad was. Okay. Um, he was stronger than I am physically, uh, till the day he died. He, I will never be him. Okay. And there's good and bad about that. And there's a lot of people out there that I admire. Okay. But I'm not going to be them. I hold myself to my own standard, right? It's my standard for me. I don't, yeah. [01:30:39:16 - 01:31:06:00] Lucas Underwood I've got to ask this question. Okay. This has nothing to do with diagnostic testing and it's something that I think I have personally struggled with a little bit, um, and something that I think about often when, when we give advice, right, it's rooted in our belief system. It's rooted in, in who we are, but I take giving advice to other people very seriously, and I take lifting them up and getting them to a better place very seriously, [01:31:07:03 - 01:32:07:05] Lucas Underwood when we look at, at people giving some of this advice and, and I, I think they genuinely believe that they're doing what's right. I think they genuinely believe they're, they're doing the right thing for other people. See, so how do you judge that advice? How do you know that you're leading them in a right direction? Because like these, what I keep seeing is I see these people, they're business owners and they're, they're lost, right? They don't know where to go. They don't know what to do. They don't know. And, and many of them pull from many different facets and they get information from lots of different people. But sometimes someone will attach to a very specific person. And what that person says is the grace and they believe everything they say. My fear is that my belief system may move their morals or their values in a different direction that doesn't align with who they are. And I take that very seriously. But I don't, how do you avoid that as a, as a coach? How do you make sure that you're not infringing on their belief system? [01:32:07:05 - 01:33:31:20] Cecil Bullard Do you, do you remember what I, I, I started out with in, and that is, um, Cecil has to like Cecil and then God and family and et cetera. So, um, you know, I judge the success of what we do with clients by their success, right? And I always said, you know, we, we can influence, um, we can't, I can't make your decisions for you. I can ask you what I can, I can tell you what I would do. Um, I can tell you also as a coach 20 years ago, I was a lot harsher and a lot more imagine that right. Uh, and a lot more, um, you got to do this and you got to do that. There were, there were a lot more definitive statements. All shops should, all people should blah, blah, blah. Uh, those, a lot of those things have disappeared from my, from my vernacular, I look at the, at what the Institute for all the clients that we have served and all the clients we serve and the success that we have. And I judge my success by that success. I also judge my success by being able to look at myself in the mirror in the, in the morning and, and, and like what I see, even though it's, it's a little flabbier, a little older and a little whiter. [01:33:31:20 - 01:33:33:05] Lucas Underwood Well, saggy, the old nine yards. [01:33:33:05 - 01:33:34:09] Cecil Bullard Yeah. All that. [01:33:34:09 - 01:34:34:01] Lucas Underwood There's a, there's a great question that just came up and I'm going to take a stab at this, he's going to pop it up on the screen for us because I'm wondering about the best ways to present a higher cost for Diag to customers. I always have a hard time, especially if we end up having to send it elsewhere because we don't have a special tool or software. We go as far as we can. Then we have to stop sometimes medical field. It's not a big deal to pay a bill to one doctor after they tell you they need to send you to a specialist, but in our industry, it feels like we've just failed. Now, listen, I'm going to tell you that for me, I'm judging that situation very early on. Okay. I'm not taking on things that are out of my wheelhouse and I have learned my lesson. And listen, Cecil, this is something you've seen in my shop. If the advisor is not astute, automatically, if they don't have that technical knowledge, if the manager doesn't have that technical knowledge, it can be very difficult to weed those out. But you have to have a technical team that says, "Hey, I believe this is something that we shouldn't get into. We need to get this out." There's things that require some treatment. [01:34:34:01 - 01:35:55:10] Cecil Bullard But I don't, I would, in a way, I disagree with you because we need to define what our jobs are in the business, right? If I'm the owner and the manager of my company, what's my job? To provide my people with the things they need to be successful, goals, org charts, job descriptions, tools, education, et cetera. Am I the one making the decision as the owner that we're going to take that job or we're not going to take that job? No, I'm not qualified. I haven't worked on cars in 16 years. Okay. There's no grease under my fingernails. There's, you know, the scars I have are well healed and there's no fresh stuff going on. Is it the service advisor's job to make that decision? No, no, no, it's probably not. It's the tech's job. This is beyond our capabilities. And by the way, can the tech do that if we haven't charged some time up front to determine that? And maybe we need to develop a list of specialists in our area that we can say, "We need to send you to a specialist on this type of a car." And not feel bad about doing that because that's what's best for the company. That's what's best for the client and the client's vehicle. It's not to bring it in and try to mess it around and, you know. For sure. [01:35:55:10 - 01:36:32:07] Lucas Underwood But, but I mean, here's, here's the thing. A 1993 Mercedes SL shows up. It's KJET. It's one of the worst injection systems ever built. Somebody's going to yell at me for saying that. It's terrible. It's awful. You look at that car and you say, "Hey, I don't work on cars that are older than 20 years old." "Hey, I don't work on Mercedes that's this type of fuel system." I don't, right? Like there's, if we know, right? If I know there's no way I'm going to work on that car, I know better. I have learned my lesson. I have paid the price for it. I'm not going to take that car. [01:36:32:07 - 01:36:41:12] Cecil Bullard As techs in our industry, we judge ourselves by being the guy that can fix everything and have all the answers. [01:36:41:12 - 01:36:45:10] Lucas Underwood I'm over that Cecil. I am so over that. [01:36:45:10 - 01:36:45:25] Cecil Bullard Me too. [01:36:46:25 - 01:37:06:01] Cecil Bullard Someday, hopefully we mature enough to understand that that's, you know, that there are things in our life that we're never going to do, right? I'm never going to fix every car. I'm not going to fix every client. They won't, you know, I, I've got, believe it or not, there are people that won't listen to me, right? [01:37:07:24 - 01:37:49:25] Cecil Bullard Sometimes I'm like, "God, you've hired us to help you. We're telling you what to do." And yet you won't go do it, right? Right. And again, I can only have influence. So I think, yeah, I think we need to decide kind of upfront what our roles are and what we're willing to do and what we're not willing to do. And the better we make that, the clearer we are, then the better we can focus our business on being more successful as opposed to, you know, all the crap. And I got to tell you, it's, it's really hard when you have no cars in your shop to say no to somebody that's bringing in a Mercedes with a K-Jet system or whatever. Right? [01:37:49:25 - 01:37:56:05] Lucas Underwood No, it's not. So I would rather be broke. I would rather not pay my bills this month. Okay. I'm just telling you. [01:37:56:05 - 01:38:23:07] Cecil Bullard It's hard for most people to, when they think, again, if you think, if you judge yourself on your, your prowess of fixing cars, and now all of a sudden you're making a shift into ownership or something, and you have to judge yourself now on the success of the people that work for you, not, and your clients, not on your own ability to, to fix cars. And that's not an easy shift to make. [01:38:23:07 - 01:38:37:07] Lucas Underwood I agree. And that, that was one of the hardest things for me to do because the things that I saw as easy, the things that I saw as, Hey, just go do this. I recognize other people don't have the same abilities that I had. Now, I don't have the ability anymore. [01:38:38:15 - 01:39:34:28] Lucas Underwood But they were easy for me. And so I would judge the situation based on my knowledge, right? The curse of knowledge. I would talk to clients on the front counter based on what I had experienced and got myself into trouble many times. Now I'm going to tell you, be prepared. Here's where I am with this. What I do is I bring them in for a level one testing routine. And I just explained in 90% of all cases, I'm able to determine the cause or causes of your concern. Other 10% of cases, I may have to refer you to a specialist or do additional testing. I will never, ever, ever change my estimate from this price. You will stay in control of the entire process at all times. But I may come back to you. And if you are one of those 10% cases and let you know, we have to do additional testing or you need to go to a specialist or you comfortable with that. And so I, you know, I made a video last night talking about this until you've been to a shop that throws parts at your car and can't actually fix it. And you just spent $3,500 trying to change all these parts and you still have the same exact problem you went in with. [01:39:35:28 - 01:39:40:05] Lucas Underwood You listen, they have no issue paying for proper testing at that point in time. [01:39:40:05 - 01:40:33:04] Cecil Bullard And those are my clients. The least expensive way to fix your car is to have someone that knows and understands that vehicle, inspect it, do the proper testing, create a diagnostic, a diagnostic process, plan for it and pay for that. That's the least expensive way to fix your car. And this, the stuff we do in our industry, like taking it over to, you know, one of the parts houses and they're going to test it for free and then sell you an oxygen sensor and you're going to bring it in and I'm going to put it on your car. Can't, can't make that work. Right. I, and we, we have to stop as an industry doing those kinds of things. And we have to, and, and those of us that are in the industry that are being affected by that, we should be fighting that tooth and nail. Yeah. Right. [01:40:33:04 - 01:40:54:18] Lucas Underwood Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Got an incoming question and I vote. I know which one it is. And it's Mike Allen saying, are you super clear if you have to pump this to a specialist that you're still charging? Yes. Now listen, I've had issues with advisors not being super clear, but I am super clear and I am very, very transparent about that. [01:40:54:18 - 01:41:24:15] Cecil Bullard And what I want to, what I really want to teach my advisors is this. We need to be as clear as, as I mean, crystal clear about what the costs are going to be and what's going to happen with our clients. And by the way, if I want a client to argue with me about the cost, do I want that to happen before I work on the car or after my tech is spent two hours on the car and created a plan, right? And, and what happens a lot is the advisors, we have a lot of. [01:41:25:23 - 01:42:43:22] Cecil Bullard Unqualified salespeople in our industry. We're not really salespeople. Okay. They're not really advisors and, and they're, they might be the nicest people. They might be all kinds of things, but they're not really advisors and they have a fear, I don't want to have this conversation because it's going to be a potential to have that person be mad at me or have that person take their car away or whatever, and they may walk away and not like me. Right. And, and, and so we're vague. We're vague about our answers. We're vague about what we're going to do. We're vague. How many shops have you walked into that have a very good script about Diag and what they do, why they do it, what the costs are, why those costs are the costs and what, what is likely to happen and what could happen. You know, how many shops have that script that your service advisors know and understand. So that customer is right off the bat understanding what's really going to happen and why it needs to happen that way. I would tell you for me, like sales and building value, it's so easy, but it is not easy for the average service advisor because they've been taught how to do that and they don't have the experience to do that. Right. And so we, yeah, we, we need to, yeah, we got to clean that up. [01:42:43:22 - 01:44:28:21] Lucas Underwood You know, look, we, we pick on Mike, but, but let's be honest about why Mike does a lot of what Mike does in this instance. And it's because Mike needs a competitive advantage. He is, he is in a very, very heavily saturated area. There's a lot of shops around him. There's a lot of people around him too, but he uses this as a tool to try and drive more people in the door. He uses it to set himself apart from the rest of the crowd. I use something completely different, right? Like for me, I'm using the fact that we can test anything. I'm using the fact that we have abilities nobody else has. And we have those abilities because we pay our guys to learn this. We pay our guys to go to training. We have this set up so they can develop these skills and we have the equipment and that costs money, right? I understand like in their eyes, a lot of times it's like, Hey, they don't really know that they're still paying for it. They don't understand that it's in the labor rate, but to me, like, I feel like that devalues the industry as a whole. I feel like it makes it look like this should be a free service. You know, just two weeks ago, we had a car in the shop that, that came through and he called somebody else and they, they were going to do the job we were going to do for $700 for $240. And they're telling them about how we're ripping them off. They've never heard of a coolant service. They've never heard of this. They've never heard of that. And then we look at our industry as a whole and it's like, Hey, this guy's over here talking smack on an industry standard just to talk smack about it. I think if we could align ourselves, if we could get our industry moving in a more similar direction, where we're, we're making it better about our actions in our shops, our single shops at a time, we have a chance at getting this industry to where it's seen as a professional industry. [01:44:28:21 - 01:44:34:01] Cecil Bullard So let me ask you, let me ask you a question. I got, I got a couple of points, but let me ask you this question. [01:44:35:22 - 01:44:49:09] Cecil Bullard We're going to go somewhere and have a steak. Yeah. All right. And they've got a, uh, I don't know. It's $120 steak. Yeah. Um, but they also have a $30 steak and they're the same steak. [01:44:49:09 - 01:44:50:04] Lucas Underwood Yeah. [01:44:50:04 - 01:45:00:22] Cecil Bullard Okay. Does that, did, would that even play? I mean, would, would anybody at all look at the $30 steak and think that's the $120 steak? [01:45:01:23 - 01:45:15:16] Cecil Bullard No. Right. So if somebody comes into my shop and we're going to charge them $700 for whatever, right? Uh, Mike, that's my imaginary shop. Okay. Um, I don't own one. I'm thinking of buying one just because you put, you goaded me, [01:45:15:16 - 01:45:18:00] Lucas Underwood but no, I missed this. [01:45:18:00 - 01:45:55:09] Cecil Bullard But, but, um, uh, if I'm 700 and they call and say, this guy is, is saying he doesn't even know, never heard of this and he's going to charge $240 for the same thing, you know, my answer would be it's not the same thing. It can't be the same thing. Because if he, if he knew what he was doing, if he understood his business, if he understood the time it was going to take to properly diagnose and fix this car correctly, he'd be charging you $700 also. And then I want to, I want to play on something you said. Mike uses this for competitive advantage because he's in a saturated place. [01:45:56:13 - 01:47:28:26] Cecil Bullard Boo hoo. I mean, every, you're, you're somewhat unique, right? In your out in the country and you're kind of further away. There's a two thirds of the shops are in saturated places. And there are a lot of guys that aren't using, well, we don't charge for diagnostic as their competitive advantage. And they're doing just fine. I know they're my clients, right? Um, I, I always talk about this stupid book. I'm going to write that Cecil, you don't understand is the title, you know, I love it. You, you don't, you don't understand Cecil. Um, my shop had 41 shops within a mile of it and two dealerships and we were $58 higher than the next shop and we were the busiest shop. We had the happiest clients, the most satisfied. Uh, we, I believe we were the most profitable, although I didn't see all the other shops, P and L's. I did see some of them because I was, you know, that's when I started my coaching career. But, but I, I, I don't need to do that for a competitive advantage. I need to take great care of my clients. I need to help them understand why it costs, what it costs and how they're paying when somebody says, you know, I can get it done for 240 and you're going to charge me 700, you must be ripping me off. I have to say, wait a minute. Time out. No, that's not true. Because if you and I go to the restaurant and I ordered the $120 steak and you order the $30 steak, we're not getting the same steak. Okay. [01:47:30:04 - 01:48:17:23] Cecil Bullard And in, in, intelligently, internally, we understand that emotionally. We don't necessarily get that. We have to help our clients take their understanding and create emotional intelligence around that, uh, with what we, we charge and why we charge it. And I would say that most shop owners understand that we, or at least believe that if the client comes to them, the client is going to get a better repair, a better job, we care more, et cetera. And we should definitely feel that way about it, but a good salesperson helps the client take their emotion, their mental intelligent understanding and create emotional understanding around that. [01:48:17:23 - 01:49:58:04] Lucas Underwood Yeah, absolutely. And I think that if we, if we are not doing that, and so it's your job as a coach to do that for us, it's our job as a business owner to do that for, for your people, for our people and our people's job to do that for the client coming through the door. And I genuinely see that if we don't start taking moves to move our industry in that direction, as far as educating the consumer about the value in what we do, that we are professionals, right? And see that, that, that's the thing that trips me up on this. Because I can look at Mike's shop and say, that's my friend's shop. I love him. I care about him. I want the best for him. And if that's what's working best for him, so be it. He can do whatever he wants. The thing that, that hems me up on that is that I know that it has a detrimental impact to our industry in the longterm, right? There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. We've seen what it does. We see what the code scan from AutoZone and Advanced Auto Parts does to our industry. And so we know that not charging for that testing makes it look more like a commodity. Right. And I'll never forget. One of these coaches we're talking about was on a podcast a while back and he said, man, he said, I'm a retailer. I'm a retailer. I don't care about the industry. I don't care about any of that. I'm a retailer. I'm here to make money. And I'm like, but, but we're not retail. We're professionals. This is our job. We are here to advise, consult, provide information to the consumer, help them make an informed decision about one of their most expensive purchases that they'll ever make in their lifetime. Right. And it's not just about money to us. [01:49:58:04 - 01:50:16:05] Cecil Bullard And if that customer takes care of their vehicle, that vehicle will service them and service them well for a very, very long time. Now, now here's the, here's the other thing. And I think this is like super important. And we have to stop complaining. [01:50:17:11 - 01:50:48:22] Cecil Bullard We have to stop talking. I'm not, not talking about the bad stuff. And, and, and I can't, whose actions can I, can I change? Luke, Lucas, can I make you do something? No, I can't make you do anything. I can only change my own actions. So we, if we want consumers to understand the value of what we do, we have to start talking like what we do has value, not like what we do is crap. [01:50:49:22 - 01:51:04:17] Cecil Bullard And, and there'll always be some bad guys out there. We can't, we can't help that. We can't make that go away. You know, um, like I said, it's a good thing. I don't have that power because I would do some, [01:51:04:17 - 01:51:06:07] Lucas Underwood there would be some people, uh, [01:51:07:07 - 01:51:08:03] Lucas Underwood burning crisp. [01:51:08:03 - 01:52:23:22] Cecil Bullard Yeah. But, but, but I can be as positive as I can be and work towards a better industry and, and try to bring people together to, to work towards that better industry, I can influence again, what we say on our podcasts and, and how we say it or what we say in our, um, our groups and how we say it, I can influence that hopefully, but I can't change it all. I can only change as much as I can change it and work as hard as I can work. Um, I, we, we, we want to be seen as professionals as an industry. And yet many of us don't act as professionals and we need to, we need to turn that corner. Yeah. Okay. And whatever that takes, I mean, if it's a, if it's a badge that we wear a star on our forehead, a tattoo, whatever, whatever that's going to take, I'm for it. As long as we change the conversation and we start moving towards, you know, becoming in being the professionals that we know we need to be and that we know we should be, that's what we, that's what I'm for. [01:52:23:22 - 01:53:29:05] Lucas Underwood You're exactly right. And I think that it takes experience. I think it takes commitment to trying to do the right thing, focused on doing the right thing. And, and sometimes it has to be, you know, I, and I'm with you, right? Like I've, I've really shifted over the past couple of years from, Hey, I'm primarily focused on our industry and making our industry better, right? But I still have to be able to pay my bills. I still have to be able to take care of myself and my family and I have to be there for them and, and I've seen the impacts through other people's actions of what misaligned, uh, desired outcomes or misaligned intentions can do. And so I recognize that I have to align my, my family, myself, they have to come first, my business has to come first, but still yet, every decision I make in my business, I'm trying my very best to say, how can I improve this industry? How can I make this industry a better place? Because one day I have this vision that I'll maybe my son owns this shop and I want his life as a shop owner to be easier than mine, because I'm not going to lie. This has been a slog. [01:53:30:05 - 01:53:30:11] Lucas Underwood Okay. [01:53:30:11 - 01:55:23:25] Cecil Bullard I'm just saying you like it. I mean, that's the other part. You know, we, we, we go through our lives and, and you know, I, I'm not, I always say I'm not supposed to be in this industry. I wasn't, this wasn't the plan. And, and here I am, you know, 44, 45 years later and here, you know, here I am. And I've been in this industry and, and, uh, it's been good to me. It hasn't been easy. But you know what, the hard part of it has, what's kept it interesting and, and make me strive and all of that. I don't, you know, I don't, I don't think there's a perfect anything and, and, you know, thank you, who, whoever's in charge of the universe for doing that to us so that we, so that we know how to strive and that we continue to strive. Um, I've had a great life. I've enjoyed my life. Uh, I'm going to hopefully enjoy it for another 20, 25 years and, and, uh, continue to try and influence, um, the industry to be as professional as possible. And, uh, I just, I really want to go to the changing the industry blog and all the, the, you know, the group and, and I want to see some people say, man, you know, my owner Lee is just a great guy. And man, this is a great shop that I work in. And there's such great opportunity to be a tech in this industry today. You could almost write your own ticket. And I'd love to see some owners go in there and say, you know what, man, it, it's a struggle, there's some bad weeks and occasionally there's a bad month, but overall, man, what a great industry we work in, because if we can't, if we can't talk about it that way and be that way with it, the public is never going to understand why they pay us a nickel. Yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. If we get, we got to get more positive focused in this industry. [01:55:24:25 - 01:55:45:28] Cecil Bullard And, uh, so look for the, uh, automotive industry initiative coming out soon, which, uh, is the group of, uh, people we put together and we're going to be putting more people into that pile to drive the industry towards more professionalism and towards, um, worse, uh, to be more solidified and more positive. [01:55:46:29 - 01:55:47:03] Cecil Bullard Absolutely. [01:55:47:03 - 01:56:17:17] Lucas Underwood It's going to be great Cecil. Thank you for being here today. Everybody. Thank you for, for being part of the conversation. Our dear friend, David over at inbound is going to get all kinds of diagnostic questions because the email says support at call inbound. So, you know, David, listen, you just answered the best you can. We'll riff off of it next time. Okay. So, uh, you know, I'm really excited about the things that are happening and the moves that we're making and even, even little old Mike Allen over here, his efforts in the industry have been huge as well. [01:56:17:17 - 01:56:21:13] Cecil Bullard I'm going to have to give him a big old wet kiss on the cheek next time I see him. [01:56:21:13 - 01:56:49:14] Lucas Underwood So that's it. He would enjoy that very much. So, uh, but I am so thankful to be here with you today, Cecil, and I can't wait for the next one. We got another one coming up next month and, uh, it's just been a blast. And if you guys have any additional questions, make sure that you email over to the Institute and we'll try and answer those next time on our next AMA with Cecil Buller. Cecil, thank you, sir. Thank you, Lucas. Have a good day, buddy. Love you, brother. Love you, man.

14 May 2026 - 56 min

203 - The Future of Shop Training Is Personalized and Daily

203 - The Future of Shop Training Is Personalized and Daily April 22, 2026 - 00:53:43 Show Summary: Daily training keeps shop teams sharp and improving without disrupting workflow. Short mobile lessons build technical knowledge communication and consistency across roles. Data and gamification drive engagement while revealing skill gaps. Strong training habits lead to better performance stronger culture and long term business growth. Continuous development is key to retaining talent and preparing future leaders. Host(s): Wayne Marshall, CEO & Industry Coach [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] Guest(s): David Boyes, Founder of Today's Class [https://www.todaysclass.com/] Show Highlights: [00:00:00] – Importance of daily training and consistent staff development [00:02:00] – Mobile learning delivers quick effective training in minutes [00:04:00] – Gamification creates competition and boosts engagement [00:06:00] – Advisors improve by strengthening technical understanding [00:08:30] – Training data helps identify individual skill gaps [00:12:00] – Expanding into leadership and communication training [00:18:00] – Training fills gaps for shops with limited access to resources [00:24:00] – Investing in people drives retention and shop performance [00:31:00] – Developing young technicians is critical for the industry [00:40:00] – Ongoing training separates top performers from struggling shops In every business journey, there are defining moments or challenges that build resilience and milestones that fuel growth. We’d love to hear about yours! What lessons, breakthroughs, or pivotal experiences have shaped your path in the automotive industry? Share your story with us at info@wearetheinstitute.com, and you might be featured in an upcoming episode. 👉 Unlock the full experience - watch the full webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Traa892RFnk [https://youtu.be/Traa892RFnk] Don’t miss exclusive insights, expert takeaways, and real talk you won’t hear anywhere else. Hit Subscribe, drop a comment, and share it with someone who needs to hear this! Links & Resources: * Want to learn more? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/] * Want a complimentary business health report? Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/business-assessment%7C] * See The Institute's events list: Click Here [https://www.wearetheinstitute.com/upcoming-events] * Want access to our online classes? Click Here [https://www.gearforshops.com/pages/course-library] ________________________________________ Episode Transcript Disclaimer This transcript was generated using artificial intelligence and may contain errors. If you notice any inaccuracies, please contact us at marketing@wearetheinstitute.com [marketing@wearetheinstitute.com]. Episode Transcript: Wayne Marshall: Welcome today for our webinar. It's exciting to have David Boyds with us from today's class. Some of the things that we talk a lot about at the institute comes down to the teaching and the training and development of staff. And when we think about what we're doing and as we work with different clients, we're dealing with it and we talk one-on-one or do other different events, and we're doing those on a weekly and monthly basis. But the beauty of some of the things that we have here to talk about today. That we're gonna have David share here more in a few minutes really goes into that daily constant feeding, developing of people and that focus. So today we want to get into and share a little bit more of the benefits and how to reinforce those different messages and those different things. It's a privilege that at the institute we have this opportunity to have a very strong partnership and alliance with today's class. Some of the content that we've developed and that we're doing, we're sharing with today's class. And David will talk a little bit more where we're able to take that content and he's been able to develop it and put it into that little bite-sized 2, 3, 4 minute daily things. And it could be on advisor, how to develop your phone skills, things that you can do better, that reinforces not only what we're teaching, but to make those people better on a daily basis and how it comes together. So with that, David. Thank you for coming with us today and sharing some things. If you would share a little bit about today's class, talk a little bit more as to what the content is how you get it out there, develop and the importance and what people can expect. David Boyes: Yeah. I'm really happy to be here. Today's class has been around for a long time, but what we've really focused on for the past few years is to make training as accessible as possible in a shop environment. We know that it can be difficult to carve out. 30 minutes of time, three hours of time carving out time in an evening. So we're coming at it a little different way, primarily through using mobile apps to push training that, that takes three to five minutes, typically for each user. It's engaging, it's gamified, but maybe most importantly it's personalized. So if we have, for example, in ATech, their training's gonna be different than a GST or an advisor. Our background was more on the technical side of things. We'd been an a SE accredited training provider for a number of years, so we really grew up in that space, providing technical training that could support a chef. This collaboration with the institute is exciting because now we're able to leverage their expertise and really take it to a whole new level. We know that a service advisor, for example, we can help them better understand technical concepts. However, the institute can take us to a whole nother level when it comes to things like, phone skills, communication, even things like accountability. So we're really excited to move forward here. Wayne Marshall: Yeah, it's it's interesting, you talk about gamification and I know when we, this goes many months back when we started working together on different things we, here at the institute, there was a group of us, Cecil being one that was part of it. So we're going on and be it on technical advisor, whatever it is we're going on and we're doing exactly what your clients were doing. And it got to be very competitive inside our walls because I'm doing the daily test and it's the same one that Cecil's doing, and now we're competing to see who's got 'em. All right. Am I getting more points? Am I ahead of Cecil or is he ahead of me? So that competition. It's really interesting because I know what it does to us. You're seeing that probably also with your clients because most of the people who do sign up for today's class, it's that rooftop or that shop with multiple people engaged. How well is it moving the needle when they get into the gamification or the competition? Yeah. 'cause guys got egos. David Boyes: Absolutely. So the reason that we include that gamification in there is 'cause we need to promote that daily habit. So this gets into some adult learning capabilities and motivations and so forth. But those points in the competition are a common hook. So people can earn points through being consistent with their daily training. But there's a variety of ways to leverage that. The most common thing that people will do is just treat it like a scoreboard. So if Wayne and I are on the same team, we can see who. Who's leading the pack so far resets each month. Teams can then compete against one another. So when we have various MSOs or if you're in a group, you can compete with your peers and that can just open up the doors to, to drive people to move forward. It's not something where, they have to overcommit to it, but it's a very light spirited way to keep it going. And the fun thing for us has been that. Seeing how shops come up with their own creative ways to leverage points, whether it's primarily about competition, whether it's weaving it into pay structures, incentives, tool bonuses, or ultimately creating your own reward store where you can take points and redeem them for gift cards, tools, trips, or time off. So really what we're trying to do is use the points as a way to. Create that engagement tool for a management team to be able to ensure their team Can train consistently. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot to be said about. All that content that's out there. And it's like anything with learning, you gotta keep it fresh. And the more we can do to engage people on a daily, regular basis, that keeps whatever the subject matter is of what they what, while it's on the track training track that they're on I can only imagine keeping it top of mind. Has made a difference. And when you talk to shop owners, they've engaged into your services, they got their staff using it. What kind of testimonials, what kind of results are they seeing that trickle into? Obviously better work's going out the door. They're having less comebacks. People are being more efficient. They're seeing that proficiency in tech time, on and on. How does that trickle in and what are some of the comments you get back? David Boyes: Yeah. Yeah, so I'd say the, I could boil that down to a few common use cases. One, I think for service advisors, on the technical side of things, we see a lot of benefit, very common for us to hear about customers who have an advisor who's great at communicating great with people. But just lacking some of that technical expertise. Today's class is a very easy way for them to begin to. Beef up on, on some of that technical knowledge terminology that improves their ability to not only communicate with the customer. But also with the technicians in the back. So we get a lot of great feedback on that in terms of getting them up to speed, very quickly, but also in a way that's non-threatening. They can do this on their own, they can do additional self-study. So we get a lot of good feedback from an ROI perspective on service advisors. When we talk about advanced level technicians. A lot of this gets into how things have changed. We talk about daily re-engagement, reinforcement. This is not a static industry. Things are moving all the time. So as we keep our content up to date and fresh, as a very experienced technician, you might see something you didn't know or something that has changed since you last learned it. So staying in front of it tends to be pretty key. And then from a measurable perspective, another area that we often see relates to a SE certifications. And a lot of that comes to prep and making sure that people are confident to go into these certifications through the way that we deliver training, the way that we measure where folks are. We've got great reports on building individual folks confidence, so they head into those certifications knowing that they're gonna pass it. Wayne Marshall: And on a reporting side, you are getting a lot of the information. Obviously you're seeing how people are, when they engage, what they're engaging in, how they're scoring or testing. So if they're showing because at the end, as they go through it. The test is gonna tell you if you've got competency of subject matter. So at the end, as you report all this, it's obviously going back to the shop owner. And they're being able to see where there's gaps or weakness. How are they using that then as part of that overall development and learning? As they continue to build it out? David Boyes: Yeah, so measurement is key for everything we do. We have tons of data and we have a variety of shops that are data junkies and other folks that want more of that headline data. What we tend to advise is to look at that data to inform some of the additional training you may need. The today's class experience is something that you can do in three to five minutes a day, but we recognize that technicians and advisors are gonna need more. Where this can help is the data can begin to inform that perhaps these two technicians over here really need some additional help, in, in AC services or electrical. And now instead of sending your whole shop to per an evening class, for example, let's send these two folks that really need help. So having a line of sight to what they actually know, what they actually are confident in can help a business operator make more informed decisions. Wayne Marshall: And I know part of this, besides just that daily interactive. You also are doing some other things where you're doing online training, where you just recently did one on air conditioning. And ended up doing it on live where you had 40 plus. Techs and others coming in that one of your instructors went through and took even that deeper dive to help them through this training or getting them to that certification. So it's not just the daily, it's also reinforcing it in a different way. As you're looking at everything that's going on, and we've talked a little bit about this, everybody's talking about ai. And they're talking about how this is changing and embracing, and I know you're looking at it. We're looking at it and how can we use it as a tool to reinforce and to help fine tune that messaging. Tell me a little bit, I know you've got some things in the works, nothing ready to announce, but tell me how you guys are looking at this, because it is changing our industry. David Boyes: Yeah. No, we need to use it as an enabler. So it allows us to evaluate content, be more consistent, with the volume of training that we push out each day and the data that we're crunching. It allows us to identify trends. So when we talk about this AC session that we did the other day, the benefit that we get. As thousands of users are training in the platform. Each day. We can get insights that say, people are struggling with this, or people misunderstand this, or maybe we need to enhance this particular content area, and the AI can help us crunch through that data more effectively. So it really just becomes something that allows us to do our job more effectively. Scale across broader data sets, more quickly. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. What's one of the biggest challenges that you guys face right now when it comes to the training and development of, what do you hear? What's some of the feedback that people are looking for that we're trying to continue to, as we do at the institute? What's the gap and how are we gonna start to develop and close that gap? David Boyes: Yeah. I'd say for us it's a bit of a balancing act because we know that the fundamental. Our key. A lot of times people are looking for what's next and we have to balance that to keep them looking ahead, but also recognize, are they doing those services right now in the shop? Yeah. We've got, limited resources for development. We have to have that balancing act. So we use those data insights, industry insights and feedback from customers to say, here's how we can prioritize our development roadmap. Wayne Marshall: Are you finding the need to become very manufacturer or model specific or anything like that? Or is it still staying? Pretty universal? David Boyes: It's pretty universal at this point, 'cause again, there, there's such deep rabbit holes you can get into once you go into that make and model specific. So at this point, we haven't gone down that road and we'll continue to explore it, but at this point we still have a lot of work that remains to be done kinda more from the broad level. Wayne Marshall: So part of our partnership reliance is you've been working hard 'cause you had a lot of great things and obviously you've moved the needle. You've got about 11,000 users roughly on the system, which is a big number. And it was very technical specific. And now we're starting to get into. More of those soft skills and we've been honored to be able to help with some of that content and information that will help with that service advisor, telephone skills what other things, when you talk about soft skills. Are we working on or you wanna work on to develop? David Boyes: Yeah, so leadership, accountability and shop operations more broadly. We wanna be careful to not be very narrow, let's say with a particular focus on, on, on breaks or engine performance, but we wanna ensure that. Teams can work to together effectively communication, handoffs, documentation to make sure that all of that pieces together. We don't, we want to enable broader shop operations. We know we can reinforce that, get that message out daily. We're even seeing with some specific customers that they're building out best practices in terms of the way they run their SOPs, the way they run their point of sale systems, where they can dish that out to their teams and enforce those behaviors daily. Wayne Marshall: Yeah, it's we're seeing this more and more. We've been to different industry events at the institute. We've had this opportunity to interact, present on different things and why there's a lot of good things going on in the technical side, those soft skills. Very much in demand. You know how to build good culture and how to be a good leader, not just be a good manager, but a good leader that inspires and gets people to rise up as we want 'em to do. So it's something that we're, again, we're excited to be able to help develop some other content that can be used, that can be put into those bite sizes. Just good action items and a reminder of, here's something I can do today. That can make a difference in my business to be a better leader, to be a better manager to, to operationally how to get into, so I know we, at the institute, we spend a lot of time, we've got our own dashboard, we've got all these operational KPIs, but how do you then take all this good data and implement implemented into daily operations? So it's gonna be interesting. I know we got a lot of work in front of us. To get it where it needs to be, but it's gonna be fun to build it and try to make this difference. I also find it interesting, and you've talked a lot about it in the past when we've talked. Talk a little bit of how it's different. Adult learning has changed and it's gonna continue to evolve. The young people coming up, the millennials, whatever, their attention span and how they look at things and how they consume is different than me as a baby boomer. What are some of the things in the trends you're seeing and how are you trying to adapt to, if you could? David Boyes: Yeah, I'd say a lot of it starts with recognizing that there's different ways to learn. I think there's a lot of, there's a tendency to learn the way that we all did, let's say in high school, for example. We gotta be very careful when it comes to a one size fits all approach, and also for longer bursts of time. There's just a lot of research that indicates. That there's only so much information an individual can absorb and retain over time. And then everybody's probably f familiar with the idea of the forgetting curve, that we're gonna get rusty on things over time. Yeah. So we're not, we're trying to just recognize those behavioral tendencies. Some folks might roll in attention span to that as well, which can be part of it. So we're trying to be very targeted. Hit you where you need it, hit you with what's relevant and ideally motivate you to dive deeper. Motivation is a key aspect to it when you think about somebody on your staff that it has to do required training. Yeah. The common behavior is they'll work through it, try to get to that finish line and say, I'm done. However, if you can flip that around and find a topic or an area that an individual's very motivated and interested to go through, obviously they'll enjoy that more, but there's a lot of research that suggests that the retention there is much stronger. So with a lot of our strategies. We're trying to build it in that way where people can, do what they need to do, but then ideally, push deeper into areas that they're very excited about. Wayne Marshall: Yeah I'll pick on myself and, being someone who was in college in the seventies and, being in my later sixties. I'm still old school. I still gotta have stuff on paper. I wanna be able to tactically touch it, read it, and work through. I look at my kids and grandkids man, they're in the digital space, and I know it's really hard at times when you sit there and you try to feed this content. And how it's gonna stick for this person to this person. And yeah, this industry's changing. A lot. But when I look at myself and I look at a lot of owners that are out there who are in their, later fif mid later fifties and beyond. Yeah. Some of us are still pretty old school. David Boyes: And building on that, I think some of the trick in terms of what we try to do, when you think about having an individual, let's say take a course on, on breaks Yeah. Or ac. Your sense of where they might need help is attached to that broad topic? Yeah. When we break it down to these smaller pieces, we can tell you exactly where somebody's struggling, exactly where they need help and maybe we can take them for being 90% effective. To 95 to a hundred, so we can still make meaningful gains even with those small pieces. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. And and I get your daily feeds, 'cause I've got the app on my phone. I don't, I'll be honest, I don't do it every day. There was a stretch there that we are competing more internally, but it is nice and we all work with a smart device of some kind. Be it a tablet, be it your phone, whatever. So it makes sense. But at the same time, I know how it affects me and how I still learn and consume that kind of educational material. And yeah, still this day I still can't get outta the habit of not printing. But I'm not the future as they say. I'm still the present and working and I look at the generations coming up and I just wonder there's been a lot of statistics out of that attention span, how you teach, how you develop, and how they become good with their hands and do. Yeah it's getting harder and harder, yeah. To say. David Boyes: Yeah. And I think it's, constraints are a big piece of it too, because people may have a preference for those deeper dives. They may have a preference for hands-on, but I think that the reality is carving out the time or getting to the location you need to, that's not always easy. We have a lot of customers that are in very rural locations because they may not have a lot of options. Yep. You can do this on your phone. It's short, it's successful. You can dig deeper if you want, but a lot of these folks may not have the time or availability to, to dig deeper. And again, as I said earlier, we don't view this as the only solution that, that, folks can leverage. I think this fits that gap where you can build from other things and tie it all together. Wayne Marshall: Yeah I gotta compliment you, as I've looked at some of the technical training it's very detailed now. It is in those snippets. So you know, you're not gonna just get on for five days and go through breaks as an example or air conditioning. And at the end of that, say, Hey, I'm ready. Now go take the a SC, I can be certified, whatever. But there's enough content in those lessons that you look at, and it's in, it's in the dozens, it's 2030, but if you get through the whole segment of you've gained and consumed a ton of information that really will get you prepared. It's, I compliment you in staff and I've been very impressed with the details and the level that you can take people. I encourage everybody, take a look. There's so many ways to stay current. There's so many ways to learn and develop, and we've talked about that. Yeah. There's a lot of service centers that are an hour, two hours from a city where training is gonna be happening, and now the expense of sending someone who's got a drive, maybe there's a hotel room. You go down the list. It adds up and it gets really expensive fast for some of these different events. David Boyes: Yeah. And that's where I think our data for our customers that do that they're in a good position to make that call, because you're gonna have to do that hands-on training. You're gonna have to travel. But if you can do so by knowing that this employee's ready for this training. Let's flip it around. Now, maybe I don't make that expense because I know you're already beyond it and I can say, Hey, we're not gonna invest the time and the cost to do that. Let's wait for a session that's more appropriate for you. Yeah, Wayne Marshall: no I hear you. What are some other areas that you're considering? I know we've talked about, besides the technical, we've already talked a little bit about some of the other different leadership management culture. Are you gonna add in accounting, financial training? David Boyes: Financials is an area that we're very interested in. I think for a lot of, the younger, technicians, for example, that are very interested maybe in opening their own shop someday. We would love to break into that and start. Delivering some of that foundational financial experience that everybody can benefit. Whether you're gonna open up a shop or you're gonna go off and do something else. That personal finance can be key. And again, that's where we're really excited to work with you guys on that. Leverage your expertise. Yeah. 'cause I think we would all agree that everybody, Wayne Marshall: yep. David Boyes: In that shop, if they all have a good understanding of that. That's gonna improve the communication, that's gonna improve expectation setting and allow things to be smoother. Wayne Marshall: I know this is in my past life. Years ago I worked for a company, manufacturing company and I had a meeting with staff and the title of the meeting was, how do we make money? And I can remember taking the time and breaking down, materials, labor, and all the things that it took. 'cause it was a custom manufacturing company and everything that it took and showed them and staff, how do we make money? And I agree with you. I think when we start talking to coaching clients and others, the owner understands. But sometimes the service advisor, the tech doesn't realize this lack of efficiency or this happens or that happens. Erodes or eats into the overall financial statement. The other thing I, is we're seeing, and you read the statistics as I do right now in this industry, they're saying between 50 to 60% in the next 10 to 15 years of service centers are gonna change ownership. There's a lot of people and we see 'em within our marketplace who are in that age of 55 plus who want to get out and want to do it. And we're already working with clients who are selling to a service advisor or a general manager or to a tech, but now they need to understand. So this is a great way, again, not having access to certain things. Yep. To fill that gap, and it's a big gap that's coming. David Boyes: Yeah. I'll tie that back to the learning motivation. So imagine that you get exposed to a little bit of this and you're interested. Now I understand. It's not such a mystery to me. Yeah. And that might motivate you to learn more. Imagine if you're an owner having, your experienced technician come up to you and start asking some of these questions about the finances of the business, that can be a very encouraging step in that development cycle. Wayne Marshall: Yeah, very. Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And it's something that. I know with, and I've done some coaching calls where the owner says, are you okay? Can we have one of the coaching calls? And I'm gonna bring in my, service manager, general manager, one of my advisors. And would you talk to them about all these things that we're just talking about operationally? Financially. They get it and they know it, but to be able to coach and teach and let it go out to them only moves the needle. And if they got focus on the dollars and everything that's going on, yeah, it trickles down. And now that shop's making more money, now they have the money to buy that extra specialty tool or to get the new alignment rack or to give out bigger bonuses or incentive plans for the tax to the service advisors to. Everybody else, so everybody wins. Training is just so critical and we just have to constantly do and build. And I always tell our coaching clients, we talk about when we go to events, if you don't invest in your biggest asset, which is your people. They're gonna find someone who will invest in them and that's not maybe gonna be at your shop. So I just feel like you can't stress training enough and you've gotta invest and you gotta help these people. And when you do it and it makes them better, makes you better as a shop and they know that you really do care for 'em, which builds culture. David Boyes: Yep. Wayne Marshall: All the things we talk about. As you look to the future. Do you see anything out there that is going to be a big change, big movement, any concerns or is just keep an eye on the prize as they say. Keeping an eye on what we need to do. David Boyes: We gotta keep our eye on the ball but again, I think there's a lot of enhancements from a content but also a data perspective. We want to make, we will ultimately want to move into a more dynamic. Training model right now, our customers will select the type of training that they want. It's menu driven, but whether I'm ATAC or I want somebody to focus on breaks, as we begin to get more sophisticated with data, we can look at business ops and begin to shift that dynamically and start pushing training automatically to somebody based on what they need. Now again, they can always seek out more information, but the more that we can do on behalf of the shop. The better off. We think that they are. They can certainly, take the wheel and steer it, but they they have a lot going on, and if we can use our expertise and their data to inform that, we think that's effective. Wayne Marshall: We look at shop management software, obviously. We have different things we have within our own dashboard that allows us to pick up so many different data points. And all of this trickles back down to, okay, we got all this great data, but if I can't take that data and put it in a form that gives me insight or knowledge, which allows me to make better decisions, which I like. What we said earlier is that, as a shop owner. I can see all this thing on your dashboard. I can see who's going in on a regular basis. I can see well how they're doing on the testing. I can see if they need more training. These are so important data points. No different than am I getting the right gross profit on my parts? Am I getting the right gross profit on labor that gives me the overall gross profit on my business? But if we don't take all that data and use it to have better insight and knowledge to make better decisions. Then it's just bits and bytes and it's just data. David Boyes: Yeah. We gotta be very careful with that. We will hear that constructive criticism from our customers that these dashboards are great, but there's a lot, how do I make sense of that? I know. And I don't disagree. That's gonna be some of the excitement coming going forward because we're gonna continue to refine this and make it more actionable, a little more clearer. You mentioned just some of the financial stats. If we think about the number of metrics the typical shop owner's gotta manage, it's not a short list. No. So we can do our part to try to tighten that up and connect it to those metrics because ultimately we want those training dollars to be, or those training metrics to be informing those dollars and so forth. So the better we can tighten that up. It makes it simpler from a reporting perspective and more effective overall. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. We whenever we get a new coaching client, we, start the whole conversation of, let's get a status of your business. Let's look at the health, let's start looking at some of those data points. Then it starts, okay, where do you need to train? Where do you need to develop, new skills or new opportunities? But at the end of the day, it it starts, nothing happens. Until the phone rings. That's right. Nothing happens until a customer drives into your lot and walks in the door. We can do all that, but once that starts, that gets the opportunity to sell 'em. But what brings 'em back is the quality. Of the experience with the service advisor to the quality of the work the tech did, and that it's of what it needs to be. That when the customer drives away, they have a happy experience. All that comes and we keep reinforcing it. But it all comes through training and reinforcing. One, one of the things that, we talk about from a culture standpoint, what gets rewarded, gets reinforced, and sometimes we reinforce and reward the wrong thing too. So this is an opportunity when we have the right metrics, get the right KPIs, we get the right training going, we keep it and sustain it. Now it reinforces all the right things you wanna do. So that customer experience is at a high level. The retention stays up. So when that phone rings and they come in and you get a new customer, you keep the new customer. And then you just build on that energy and we're seeing a lot of that. And I go back to the beginning. This is what's exciting of being able to work together and what we're seeing that it does to reinforce what we coach and train and speak about. So yeah, it's gonna be fun to continue to help with content. New things, new stuff, that we can get it to that next level. To truly make this, as we say, a better industry. David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: Because that's what we want. David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: Everybody wins. David Boyes: Yeah. We're big believers and two heads are better than one. Yeah. So it's been exciting, to work with you guys. And again we're very excited to work with experts and bring in different perspectives. 'cause I think broadly what we've done is confirm that this learning model and this access works and it's. Talking to thousands of shops, we know there continues to be opportunity where they need information, there are access limitations. So if we can get the right content piped through to those folks, the better they'll be overall. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. I agree 110%. It's just, there, there's so many shops out there and there's only enough hours in a day. David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: It's like how do we continually try to help and make a difference? I say and I've been around it for a lot of years, but this is a great industry. It's exciting, and I think we need to continue to do a better job as an industry to entice and bring in the young people. Sometimes we still have the phobia of what it was 20 and 30 years ago. It's dirty, it's greasy, it's this Cars aren't dirty and greasy like they used to be. Engines don't leak and do other things like they used to do and the electronics and everything that's into it. Is making it a more exciting, interactive and challenging activity. I think about my grandson who loves the video games and the computers and all the things, but then you sit there and you try to tell him all the other things you can do and what's in the automotive space. It is exciting. It is exciting. And what we're gonna be able to do. I don't have the right answer, but it's the only way we can do is to continue talking about it as an industry. Continue to encourage, to continue to engage, but once we get 'em in, what are we gonna do to take 'em to the next level? What are we gonna do to continue to start? Because I hear too many stories of, especially at the dealership level, the kid comes out, maybe you went to the community college. They're not through all the programs they could do it to, but they end up being a loop tech. Then the dealership keeps 'em held down and they don't want to do this. They don't want develop 'em, and they don't want to go in these other directions. So what does the guy do? He leaves. I can't make enough money. I can't support myself, so I'm gonna find another one. And he goes to another industry, might be welding, it might be, a machinist, it might something else that, that can pay him. That he is not getting because he is being held down. So I say this all the time, and as I look into the camera guys, we as a whole, as a team, we have to improve ways of what we're doing to develop the young people of this day. It is so critical and this training opportunities and the things that we're doing with today's class and it's with others in the industry, it's just so critical. If we want to retain the next generation and beyond, and it's gonna, it's gonna take time and it's gonna be hard, but we gotta start someplace and we've gotta make those investments. And it's gotta be frequent. I don't know about anybody else, but man I've had the privilege in all my years of working. I've learned a lot. But if I don't go back and refresh, I forget it. I forget it. And the daily aspect of it is huge. Yeah. It's huge. Just keep top of mind. David Boyes: Yeah. And I think, again, challenging when you think about bringing in, younger folks, I think we need to challenge some of the assumptions related to is the way that we've done it, the way it needs to be in the future. So we're trying to push a little bit in terms of this di this idea of daily engagement and the way people actually learn and what's effective. And these things will continue to evolve. The audience is changing. We need to look at them in a different way and what works. Yeah. Whether it's, we hear a lot of it, tying back to what we talked earlier about with the points and recognition and so forth. We hear from a lot of our customers when they use our. Metrics and engagement tools, that money isn't the biggest motivator for a lot of their employees. No, it isn't. It, it's the recognition, a lot of these other tools, and it's fun to see some of the ideas that they come up with. And we also notice that those incentives vary a bit from their younger crew to their more experienced crew as well. Wayne Marshall: That no, it's it's been proven for. I go back to. When I was in college in some of my classes, that was proven in statistics 40 some years ago. That money is not the ultimate motivator. It's job enrichment, fulfillment, and other things you do. And that is true. And this helps to fulfill some of those. Just inner needs psychologically that we have. David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: Yeah, don't get me wrong, money's important and we talk a lot about the Maslow hierarchy, and you get into that, basic needs. Everybody needs money to pay their rent to, make their car payment, have food and that. But once people start getting past the fundamental things, the base of Maslow, and you start to climb up, you're looking for other things. You're looking for that enrichment that, fulfillment of and what fills your soul, so to speak, that makes you want to go to that job every day and do what you do because you find the challenges of it. And that's something that's important as these young people start to grow. And go through I'm curious, have you guys have any connection or. Are you gonna work to get connections with maybe some of the trade schools and or community colleges with your content that helps their students and other things? Do you got anything like that? David Boyes: We've tested it a bit. We're working with one school that we've been working with for years in Adrian, Michigan. And the, it works well. I think the trick that we sometimes find in particularly schools is. It is more of a one size fits all approach. Those instructors do need to bring you into this subject area. You're gonna have a quiz on Friday, and then we're gonna move to the next one. So the individualized approach, they often like the idea of that IEP, that in individualized program. However, it can be a distraction from what the instructors. Routine is of doing. So it's been a bit of a mixed bag, so it hasn't been a focus for us. We used to work in that business and begin to shift back towards the aftermarket. Wayne Marshall: Got it. Yeah. I could see as we at the institute have the privilege to engage with Weber right here in the community, which is one of the top automotive technology programs in the country. Yeah. And in our meetings and being part of their advisory board and group, it is interesting. We sit there and we're looking at that and how to connect better. Just as we said earlier we've gotta invest in the young people. We gotta invest in this next generation. So we've been working harder to get connected with some of the schools and do more. Do what we say, and what we preach, but to do more. But then you sit there and say, okay, so how can we continue that? So they can see that there is a very good career path of knowledge, teaching, training, development that takes from the next level. But I could see maybe someday. David Boyes: Maybe someday. And we're not opposed to do more, but it, but yeah, it's. It was interesting. We, we, particularly for teenagers, there was this thought, okay, an app-based approach would be a home run, right? And again, I think the students were interested, but it became, for an instructor, they've already got a full plate and it became an extra piece that they had to manage. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. David Boyes: But I do think that this, going to what we talked about earlier, imagine being a student and knowing that, hey, I could be taught not only about. Turning wrenches. I can be taught about sales, culture, leadership, financial. Yeah. I can learn not just to do this job, but how to run an actual business when it comes to this. Wayne Marshall: Yeah, it's exciting to look, 'cause a, again, we get many people who come into the institute and we, and I just ask 'em, how did you get to own this shop? I was the top tech at that shop or another shop, and I decided instead of working for somebody else, I wanna work for myself. David Boyes: Yeah, Wayne Marshall: so they knew the technical side. They knew the business as to fixing cars and how to, read an ro repair order and how to get it done and fix riding out the door and make the customer happy. What they didn't know is all those other skills. That makes a difference if you're in business five years from now or you're not in business five years from now. David Boyes: Lots of details and whether it's the people, the financials the legal. There's lots of layers to it where, you know, who knows? I think there's an an advantage as well. Maybe somebody gets exposed to some of those things and they say, you know what? That's not for me. I am pretty comfortable with where I am right now. I'm gonna focus on what I do well. I don't wanna have to deal with, managing people or these pieces of the puzzle. Wayne Marshall: Yeah it's a lot when you talk to some of those and I've always found it interesting and it has nothing to do with age. We we work with some young people. I mean that, when I say young, they're in their twenties and thirties. To those who 45, we're, I've got a coaching client that I'm working with here at the institute yeah, mid forties. Bought his first shot. But he was the top tech and decided I wanted to do my own thing. Yeah. And now he's building. But yeah, all of a sudden he realized why he was doing okay. He wasn't making the money. He should, he wasn't having all the success. And we started digging in and just, yeah. All that financials and just the. Standard operating procedures and processes, the HR aspect of just managing and leading people, and it's a whole different skillset. Some people have it naturally, but most. Myself included, I had to learn it and develop it over time. Oh yeah. David Boyes: It's not easy. The analogy that we'll often talk about is somebody that's a really good cook or you're very passionate about that. But running a restaurant's a whole different animal. You, amen. And I think that's one that people can relate to a bit. 'cause we've all been there. We can understand what's going on in those kitchens, but there's a lot of layers to that. And I think there's a lot of value also to maybe being exposed to something and realizing that's not for me, and save yourself that trouble. There's a lot of benefits knowing where you don't belong and if you can find that out before you commit to that step, that can be a, that can be a, Wayne Marshall: it's, it was interesting. This goes back a little bit of a shop owner. I knew he sold a shop and he went back to being a tech. Because he decided you know it, and that's okay. He said, I'm not, I don't consider a failure or anything. I realized I was not a good business owner. I couldn't, we did. Okay. But I'm a better tech. So he went back to wrenching on cars every day and I still talk to him for probably about five, six months. But he was happy and very content. It's sometimes it's not always for everybody, as they say, but yeah, it's a lot to think about as you look and how to develop that and how to get those skill sets to be that good, strong dynamic. Runner or business owner and it is it's got a lot of challenges that come into play that people just don't think about. David Boyes: Yeah. And promoting discussion among that I think is helpful as well. What we find in our experience is it's non-threatening. You can see this stuff through the app. You can get exposed to it. Yeah. There's some. Hesitancy often to raise your hand in that class I don't understand what a p and l is. Help that make sense? Yeah, so by making training available and accessible and pushing it to you, we think there's an advantage there. We're also enabling more communications through the platform as well. You mentioned the webinars that we are doing on AC this week. We've got some discussion feeds as well, but again, ideally. For a technician that's listening to this, if we can expose you to some, additional knowledge on finance, culture, leadership, et cetera, get you thinking about it and maybe discussing it with one of your peers or encouraging you to go reach out and seek more help, we think that's a benefit. Wayne Marshall: Yeah. I always find it interesting when I, when we get in conversations. Our clients and just the industry in general. And I get people saying why do I need training? I'm running a pretty good shop, or why should I get coaching? Or why should I do this? Why should I do that? I always look at it and I always look at what we see out here and if you watch golf on a Sunday and the masters we just recently have, you look at professional sports and I always find it interesting that you look at the top performers in many other things. They have coaching. David Boyes: Yeah, Wayne Marshall: they have training. Just using golf as an example. They've got a putting coach, they got a swing coach, they got, someone for this. They got so many people that are helping 'em get to the very top. And when you think about what they do to excel and stay at the top and what it takes. I always wonder, why don't we do that enough in business in general. And I look at myself when I started, got outta college many years ago, but I was blessed to have some really good people in my life who were strong mentors. I took advantage of different certification programs, other training, other things. To help build my career, to get me to where I got to. And I've been an embracer of it, even at this point. I still got people I talk to. That can help me answer those questions. So I challenge our industry out here. There's so many good resources out there and there's some really talented, sharp people talk to 'em, engage our friendly competitors we have out there in this coaching, teaching, training space. All of us just wanna make and get. I guess just a lot of pride or fulfillment of making a difference for you, making a difference that you can do and be more successful for your family, for your co, for your team. And I tell people that when you sit there and go with my shop's, got five people or eight people, I says, no, think about them and their family. You've got 20, 30 miles that you're really responsible for. That's a big burden. That's a big responsibility. Financially. We want everybody to get the best and the most out of it. So training, taking advantage of today's class. Other resources and things that are out there. They're huge. It's huge. And just as you look at many top business people, professionals, athletes, whatever, all have multiple people in their lives, helping them be the best they can be. I just say people why wouldn't you take advantage of some of these things? David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: And make that investment. David Boyes: Yeah. There's a, the professional sports is such a great example for it, and I think a lot of people. They wait until it burns 'em, until they get to that point. Yeah. And it recognize that carving out the time for personal development and training plan, it can be challenging. Who knows? Maybe that's an upcoming topic that we can collaborate, couldn't collaborate. Like why we ignore this and what can happen and maybe what's happening internally for us, why we might wanna avoid it. 'cause sometimes it could be like, I'm not comfortable because I don't know this. And I'd rather just set that aside now and hope it doesn't burn me. But if we can get ahead of that and continue to build. I think most folks would agree that's gonna put you in a better spot. People always have things to learn. Things are changing so fast in this industry and look it up. If you choose in terms of the way our brains work, you're losing information, you're forgetting it over time. So if things are moving forward and we're losing stuff, you gotta stay on top of it. So if you think you've got it all figured out. Perhaps today, but I would argue it's in your interest to stay ahead of it and plan for the future. Wayne Marshall: Yeah, it's it's unfortunate we get those phone calls where. Someone says we're desperate. David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: My business is struggling. I don't have, I can't make payroll this week coming up. I can't pay my parts people. I can't. And you gotta help me. You gotta save me. And it's unfortunate that, oh, I just wish you would've called, three months earlier, six months earlier, there's so much we could have done. But you're to the point that you're so close to the end. That it's hard to turn it around. Yeah, again it's no different than we always talk. Just being focused. Great industry events are out there, great opportunities, things we're trying to do, things you're trying to do how we're trying to do it together to move that needle. 'cause it hurts me to hear that person who says they're in that tough of spot and we wanna help, but we know that they're in such a bad spot. It's just hard to get 'em to pull out. And to turn it around in that short of a window. It doesn't take a long window. But man, if we could have just had that extra David Boyes: Yep. Wayne Marshall: 60, 90 days, we could have saved it. We could have made a difference. So yeah, I think we beat up the importance of. Training and continue the development of content and education to keep you top of mind and keep it fresh. And I know we're getting down to those last minutes. Hour went by, click. I told you it would. David Boyes: Yeah, absolutely. Wayne Marshall: I said we'll get going and we'll start talking about all these things, but yeah, I mean there's just so many good opportunities. You just don't wanna see anybody miss out. And we wanna be able to deliver. And sometimes our industry doesn't have the best reputation with the consumers, so this is an opportunity to sit here and reinforce it. I don't think, and I tell, we tell this to our clients, we tell it to everybody. When people come in. And you got customers coming in, let 'em know that your techs are certified in this. Put that certificate up that your service advisor went through this training, this program. These are experts. This is a person who can, you can trust to consult with you. To give you the best and the most you need outta your car to give you that longevity. As many statistics next to your house. It's the second largest purchase unless you buy a big boat. It's the second largest purchase that you make without a car. You don't go to work. Unless you work from home. But it's so important. At least you got a house that's still there, but your car does so many more things for you that helps you keep your house. Because if you can't go to work, you're not gonna get paid. And if you don't get paid, you're not lose your house. So your car's invaluable, valuable asset. You gotta take care of it. And we as an industry can do even better by being smarter, better with our understanding the training and how things go on. I know I'm looking at my watch as we get down to the end. So what are some of your final words of wisdom? David Boyes: Building one, one on one thing you just said right there. Another tool that, that we have enjoyed rolling out, for some shops that have done it, is building up what you said with certificates and so forth with some of the gamification I referenced earlier. People can highlight that stuff. Think of, taking an Uber and looking at their star rating. We've got ways where we're able to represent, here's the topics that, this technician, the service providers graduated. That information can be made available. For those customers waiting in that shop, it might just be a little thing that indicates, Hey, these folks are continuing to grow. They're recognizing those things. But I would say from a closing thought perspective, we're again thrilled to be working, with you and your team. On taking this to an to another level. Again, really focusing on the broader shop as a whole. Trying to, improve knowledge, engage these folks, get them to be asking other questions as well. So we think there's, a lot of opportunity ahead and again we look forward to collaborating with other groups and then to try and, grow this industry. Wayne Marshall: This was very valuable and I know we have as the institute here as a whole and even outside as we've been to events. Yeah, I talk about today's class and people go, man I need my tech to need this and that. Talk to today's class. And I know we've recommended, and I know those clients that I've talked to who have engaged into your services. I've had not one complaint. Everybody's been happy. It's made a difference. They're getting a good return on that investment. It, I know it's not overly expensive, but it's something that moves the needle and it truly is a measurable reportable. We say all the time, what, what doesn't get measured, doesn't get managed. And anytime you can get those measurements and you get that data points, it gives us as leaders of a company, an opportunity to manage it better, to have those different and better conversations. Staff. 'cause all we're trying to do is move it up the ladder a little bit, just a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. The old thing of is, man, if I can just do 1% more every day, we work 20, 21 days a month on average, that's a 20% increase. By the time you get to the end of the month, what would you do with a 20% better effort or better increase in everything you're doing? That's just by doing that little bit 1% more every day. No, we're. We're happy and very ecstatic to be able to work together on the way we are to help feed some of the content, what you fed back to us that's making a difference with our coaching clients and how we engage. So it, it's exciting and I tell people who might be listening or listen to this, I know many listen after the fact. Reach out, get in touch with today's class. It costs nothing. Nothing to sit on one of your presentations as you put the group together. And you run through the features and benefits and how you do the different things you do. Take the time. All it is just 'cause what does it take? 15, 20 minutes as you go through. It's not real long. David Boyes: Yeah. Wayne Marshall: When you do your demos and just show what's available. But the knowledge gain and the opportunity is worth your time. It's really worth your time. And obviously always, we're always here at the institute. Please reach out to us. Our staff, we're here to help in another way. Training is so much, it's just so much out there that needs to continue to be worked on things that we want to continue to raise that bar of not only the content we have, the quality of it and how we deliver it out there so that people engage, learn, and we become better. And we say it all the time, better life, better business, better industry, and if we can do all this together. We're gonna have that to where you're gonna have a great run and shop. So it's gonna make your life better. It's gonna make your business better, which only makes the industry better. So I see we are up to that last couple minutes. I thank everybody. Reach out, stay in touch. Let's just keep talking and we're gonna continue to take deeper dives. As David said, we got more topics to, to cover here in the near future when it comes around training and obviously how it's consumed and the benefits of keeping it on a daily and keeping it fresh. So last words. David Boyes: Thank you very much for having me. Wayne Marshall: So glad to be here. Thank you, sir. David Boyes: Appreciate it. Wayne Marshall: It was an honor. We'll be talking more. Thanks everybody that jumped in on the live and for those later, let's talk more. We got a lot to do. Thank you.

28 Apr 2026 - 53 min

The Institute’s Leading Edge Podcast

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