The Pursuit of Beauty with Matthew Wilkinson

Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Chant with Aram Kerovpyan

Armenian chant, Armenian church music, and the ancient sacred music of the Armenian Apostolic Church are at the center of this conversation with master singer and musicologist, Aram Kerovpyan, one of the world’s leading voices on Armenian liturgical chant. Recommended to me by Tigran Hamasyan, Aram speaks with rare honesty about the survival, decline, and possible renewal of Armenian sacred music, from the modal chant tradition to the impact of genocide, Westernization, the organ, polyphonic choirs, Komitas, and the disappearing role of the master singer.This is a conversation about much more than music. It is about memory, worship, trauma, transmission, and whether a sacred tradition can survive once the living chain of singers has been broken. Aram explains why Armenian chant cannot be reduced to notes on a page, why equal temperament changes the spiritual and musical character of chant, and why true modal music must be felt in the body before it can be understood intellectually.We discuss the controversial place of the organ in Armenian church music, and Aram does not soften his opinion. For him, the organ does not merely accompany Armenian chant. It changes the nature of the music itself. This leads into a larger discussion of Orientalism, Westernization, and the assumption that ancient modal traditions need to be “improved” through harmony, polyphony, or European musical categories.Aram also reflects on the tragedy of Armenian history and the devastating cultural consequences of the Armenian Genocide. When monasteries, churches, communities, singers, manuscripts, and oral traditions are destroyed, the question is no longer simply “what did Armenian chant sound like?” but whether the world that produced that sound can ever fully be recovered.We also talk about Komitas, one of the most important and beloved figures in Armenian music. Aram offers a nuanced view of Komitas as a collector, composer, musicologist, and cultural icon, while also asking difficult questions about harmonization, Europeanization, trauma, and myth. Did Komitas save Armenian music? Did he transform it? Can both things be true?Other topics include Armenian modal music, the Armenian Octoechos, drones, natural intervals, Limonjian notation, khaz notation, the difference between oral and written transmission, the role of the master singer, the decline of traditional chant education, regional variants in Armenian chant, Gregory of Narek, the Book of Lamentations, and what it would actually take to preserve this sacred tradition for future generations.This is one of the most profound conversations I have had about Christian sacred music, not because it gives easy answers, but because it forces us to ask what we are willing to lose in the name of progress, beauty, convenience, or “civilization.” Armenian chant is not simply an old musical style. It is a way of praying, remembering, listening, and inhabiting a Christian tradition that has survived almost unimaginable suffering.

where Japanese art and Medieval manuscripts collide | Daniel Mitsui

In this conversation, I speak with artist Daniel Mitsui about sacred art, medieval manuscripts, Gothic symbolism, calligraphy, typography, Japanese woodblock prints, relics, pilgrimage, and the lost visual imagination of Christian civilization. Mitsui is a professional artist known for extraordinarily detailed religious ink drawings that continue the traditions of medieval Gothic art while also drawing from Celtic, Persian, and Japanese influences.Daniel's website: https://www.danielmitsui.com/ We discuss what makes Gothic art different from modern religious art, why illuminated manuscripts and Books of Hours became such powerful devotional objects, and how medieval artists filled the world with symbolic order. Daniel explains his use of calfskin, goatskin, ink, calligraphy, ornament, and traditional materials, as well as the way his work attempts to recover a visual language rooted in the Christian imagination.The conversation also moves into the strange and fascinating history of printmaking. Daniel tells the story of pilgrim mirrors, medieval relics, and the surprising connection between pilgrimage, sacred images, and Gutenberg’s printing press. He explains how the printing press can be understood as conceptually related to the medieval desire to carry home contact with a holy original. We also talk about typography, blackletter, Lombardic capitals, Hildegard of Bingen’s unknown language, Tolkien, Coptic letters, Spencerian handwriting, and Daniel’s own typefaces. Along the way, we explore why letters are not merely functional marks on a page, but can become works of beauty, symbolism, and devotion.Later in the conversation, Daniel explains the Japanese influence in his work, especially ukiyo-e woodblock prints, samurai imagery, St. Michael, Kuniyoshi, Hiroshige, Yoshitoshi, and the way Japanese art taught him new ways to compose figures without relying on shadows. This is a conversation about sacred art, but also about much more: the recovery of beauty, the meaning of symbolism, the relationship between tradition and originality, and whether modern people can learn to see again.📩 Subscribe to the Pursuit of Beauty Substack: https://substack.com/@UCPo3842Pl_Z3Xqo9GYACUzw 🔔 Subscribe and hit the bell so you don't miss new episodesmy website: https://matthewwilkinson.net/my Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/MatthewWilkinsonMusic00:00 Pilgrim Mirrors, Relics, and the Origins of Printing03:11 Introducing Daniel Mitsui03:34 Medieval Art, Sacred Detail, and Gothic Tradition06:38 Why 15th-Century Manuscripts Matter08:41 Ink, Gold Leaf, Tempera, and Medieval Materials11:08 Calfskin, Goatskin, Bristol Board, and Vellum15:58 Calligraphy, Childhood, and Learning Letterforms17:31 The Paradexion Tree18:13 Drawing Letters Instead of Writing Them19:16 Altar Cards, Latin Mass, and Designing a Typeface23:14 Benedict: Daniel Mitsui’s First Typeface26:34 Lombardic Capitals and Medieval Display Letters29:34 Tolkien, Bastarda Script, and Medieval Italics32:48 Millefleur, The Lady and the Unicorn, and Symbolic Ornament38:54 Becoming a Full-Time Artist39:58 Serif, Sans Serif, and the Meaning of Letterforms47:09 Coptic Letters and Ancient Scripts49:09 Hildegard of Bingen’s Unknown Language53:16 The Dream of a Daniel Mitsui Book of Hours57:19 Originals, Prints, Reproductions, and Sacred Art1:03:43 Gutenberg, Relics, and Pilgrim Mirrors1:08:48 Spencerian Penmanship and Fanciful Letters1:10:57 Japanese Art, Ukiyo-e, and St. Michael as Samurai1:15:33 How Japanese Art Changed His Christian Art1:18:28 Seeing Without Shadows1:22:37 Celtic Art, The Book of Kells, and Insular Manuscripts1:31:27 Celtic Influence in Daniel’s Work1:33:22 Christ in Majesty, Blood, and the Tetramorph1:36:36 King of Kings and Lord of Lords1:37:54 AI Art, Handmade Art, and the Future of Artists1:47:15 Persian Influence and Mixing Artistic Traditions1:49:03 Closing

This Meal Changed His Life

What happens when a meal becomes something sacred?In this conversation, Matthew Wilkinson sits down with John Heers of First Things Foundation to explore the ancient Georgian tradition of the Supra: a feast built around wine, poetry, hospitality, storytelling, beauty, memory, and human communion. What begins as a discussion about Georgian culture slowly becomes something much deeper: a meditation on why modern people feel spiritually exhausted, emotionally isolated, and disconnected from one another.John Heers shares the story of how traveling to the country of Georgia transformed his life forever. Living among Georgians in the aftermath of civil war, he encountered a radically different vision of human life centered around hospitality, vulnerability, reverence, sacrifice, and shared meals. In the Georgian Supra tradition, the “Tamada” or toastmaster guides the table through hours of poetry, tears, remembrance, philosophy, celebration, and reflection. The words are for the wine, and the wine is for the words.Matthew and John discuss beauty, nihilism, materialism, masculinity, Christianity, and the modern crisis of meaning. They explore why the modern West struggles with loneliness and spiritual hunger despite unprecedented wealth and technology. Drawing from Orthodox Christianity, C.S. Lewis, symbolism, philosophy, liturgy, and lived experience, they ask whether modern life has forgotten something essential about being human.The conversation also explores martyrdom, suffering, and witness through the story of the 21 Coptic martyrs killed by ISIS in Libya. Rather than treating faith as ideology or argument alone, Matthew and John discuss how beauty, courage, sacrifice, and love draw people toward truth in ways that abstract apologetics often cannot. The discussion touches on tears, weddings, funerals, music, repentance, and why modern culture often fears vulnerability and sincerity.John Heers also explains the mission of First Things Foundation and its unusual approach to international aid and mission work. Instead of imposing Western systems onto foreign cultures, First Things Foundation emphasizes becoming good guests: learning local languages, honoring local traditions, living simply, and empowering local communities from within. Stories from Georgia, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, and Orthodox Christian history all become part of a larger conversation about hospitality, communion, and the search for meaning.This interview will resonate with viewers interested in Orthodox Christianity, Anglicanism, Jonathan Pageau, Symbolic World, David Bentley Hart, Christian philosophy, beauty and meaning, the meaning crisis, ancient Christianity, hospitality culture, traditional societies, liturgy, symbolism, Georgian culture, masculinity, modern loneliness, anti-materialism, and the spiritual problems of modern life.If you enjoyed this conversation, please like, subscribe, and share the video. Let us know in the comments: Has the modern world forgotten how to feast, how to commune, and how to truly live together?Feast image in thumbnail: Creator: Makho KipshidzeCopyright: Makho Kipshidze PhotographyPhoto by Irma Sharikadze. Owner by Levan Qoqiashvili 02:28 – “The Words Are for the Wine” 03:41 – The 21 Coptic Martyrs 05:12 – Beauty vs Nihilism 06:45 – Discovering Georgia 09:02 – What Is a Supra? 15:02 – Hyperbole and Poetry 18:20 – Cultural Appropriation, Love, and Beauty 25:15 – Masculinity, Vulnerability, and Tears 29:08 – The Structure 33:21 – The Tamada 38:02 – Americans Don’t Know How 41:17 – John Heers’ Conversion to Orthodoxy 45:06 – His Brother 50:12 – First Things Foundation 58:41 – Orthodox Mission Work vs Modern Aid 01:03:14 – The Story of the 21 Martyrs of Libya 01:07:03 – Why Beauty Converts People More Than Arguments 01:10:55 – Materialism, Meaning, and the Crisis of Modernity 01:15:02 – “The Only Thing You Can Do Alone Is Go to Hell” 01:18:40 – We Were Never Meant to Live Like This

They Sing for 15 Hours Straight (And That's a Short Service) | Deacon Mihret Melaku

Deacon Mihret Melaku is an Ethiopian Orthodox deacon, host of the Burning Bush Podcast, and author of Defending the Ancient Faith. In this conversation we explore the full breadth of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity — its theology, its extraordinary sacred music system, its deep roots in Second Temple Judaism, and its living traditions of liturgical poetry.Burning Bush podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@UCKL74lcBHGYh2Xwsz8X68Nw Dcn. Mihret's book: https://www.defendingancientfaith.com/We begin with theology: how Ethiopian Orthodoxy understands salvation as ontological transformation rather than forensic transaction, the church's relationship to the divine energies tradition, and what makes the Axumite school of exegesis its own distinct synthesis of Alexandrian allegory and Antiochian typology. Deacon Mihret explains the Andimta commentary tradition — Ethiopia's uniquely narrative approach to scripture, which draws on hagiographic oral traditions to build midrashic-style stories around biblical events, including the extraordinary story of the man with the withered hand.A major thread of the conversation is Ethiopian Orthodoxy's relationship to Judaism. Deacon Mihret makes the case that the Ethiopian church is the most faithful continuity of Second Temple Judaism in Christendom — preserving the books of Enoch and Jubilees, keeping Saturday as the first Sabbath, maintaining circumcision and kosher practice, and tracing its Levitical vestments to the priesthood of ancient Israel. We work through four competing theories of how Judaism entered Ethiopia, centered on the Kebra Nagast and the Queen of Sheba narrative.The second half focuses on the sacred music system — one of the most complex liturgical music traditions in the world. We cover the structure of Aqwaqwam, the three-hour Divine Liturgy and the pre-liturgical vigils that can last 12–15 hours, the three modes (Ge'ez, Izl, and Araray) and their tonal relationship to the pentatonic scale, and the Ge'ez poetry tradition with its "wax and gold" (sem ena worq) double-meaning structure and three schools of poetic composition (Washara, Wadla, and Gonj). Deacon Mihret explains what a full certification path looks like — roughly 14 years across Aqwaqwam, Digwa, and Zimmari — and why even a scholar in his 60s considers himself still a student.We close on the question of Eucharistic frequency — Deacon Mihret explains why the widespread practice of Ethiopian Orthodox laypeople not receiving communion is a historical aberration contradicted by Apostolic Canon 9, which is actually chanted at the opening of every Divine Liturgy as a rebuke to non-communicants, and what the canons actually require for worthy reception.

Bishop Maximus & Evgeny Skurat | Resurrecting the Ancient Byzantine Liturgy

Matthew Wilkinson sits down with Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia and musicologist Evgeny Skurat to discuss one of the most extraordinary sacred music projects in recent memory: a full reconstruction and live recording of the medieval Byzantine Divine Liturgy, filmed at the Hermitage of St. Ignatius in Santa Cruz Naranjo, Guatemala. Drawing on years of manuscript research and decipherment of Middle Byzantine notation, Evgeny has worked to bring to life a musical tradition that has not been heard in its full liturgical context for over 700 years.Evgeny explains the difference between the cathedral and the monastic rite, why the cathedral rite is so much harder to reconstruct, and offers a provocative musicological critique of the caliphonic period associated with John Koukouzelis. Bishop Maximus reflects on the theological vision behind the project — not archaeology, not invention, but the living tradition of the Orthodox Church recovered with rigor and reverence. He also makes a compelling case for how the church should approach congregational participation: not by inventing new practices, but by looking at what the manuscripts themselves show was actually done.Evgeny Skurat is a musicologist, chanter, and director of the Chronos Ensemble, specializing in Znamenny chant, Strochnoy chant, and medieval Byzantine music. His youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@EvgenySkuratChronosChronos Ensemble's Bandcamp: https://chronosart.bandcamp.com/Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia is a bishop in the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece, a teacher at St. Photios Orthodox Theological Seminary in Etna, California, and is known for his dialogues with philosopher John Vervaeke on the Philosophical Silk Road project.Saint Photios Seminary's Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCgEVlUNCkLecfOwOTDYE6jg The Pursuit of Beauty is a long-form interview podcast exploring sacred music, sacred architecture, iconography, and the theology of beauty across Christian traditions. Hosted by Matthew Wilkinson, Doctor of Music and Director of Music and Organist at St. Michael's Church, Charleston, SC — one of the oldest Anglican churches in America, founded 1751.🎵 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major platforms📩 Subscribe to the Pursuit of Beauty Substack: https://substack.com/@UCPo3842Pl_Z3Xqo9GYACUzw 🔔 Subscribe and hit the bell so you don't miss new episodesmy website: https://matthewwilkinson.net/my Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/MatthewWilkinsonMusicVideos referenced during the interview: https://youtu.be/D8rZNz47zoc?si=_dF7roIfSHj40wHShttps://youtu.be/LQWr7TrCaHw?si=EXvgBg-nYBS1-K0Uhttps://youtu.be/xtsAsMiFLvI?si=WLsSHNx9sbsG2nNp https://youtu.be/Qxue4_dDnq4?si=4X4pOUEP6DLX0qgYhttps://youtu.be/PDItXFs3RMY?si=as0ndQfSQGatRbUehttps://youtu.be/6Myosbtq4ek?si=7xy3NHDZcfc69H3M0:00 The Problem with a 6th-Century Liturgy2:21 Introductions4:28 how a Monastery Ended Up in Guatemala7:22 Falling in Love with Medieval Chant — and Finding Evgeny10:50 Evgeny's Background: From Kronos Ensemble to Middle Byzantine Notation15:41 Has Any of This Music Been Recorded Before?18:43 Cathedral Rite vs. Monastic Rite: What's the Difference?22:42 Ornamentation: Why Chanting Without It Would Be Historically Wrong30:25 The Three Goals Behind the Project33:12 Evgeny's Transcription System: Medieval and Western Notation Side by Side43:24 What Is the Caliphonic Period — and Why Is Evgeny Skeptical of Koukouzelis?52:27 Why They Were Forced Into the 13th Century59:36 Glossolalia in Byzantine Chant (Not What You Think)1:01:29 Reading the Sources vs. Reconstructing: An Important Distinction1:04:06 Rubrical Differences: 13th Century vs. Modern Liturgy1:17:15 Congregational, Choral, and Soloist Participation Through History1:22:03 Tradition vs. Invention: Bishop Maximus on Liturgical Reform1:26:53 Where to Find the Recording and Sheet Music