Ep. #4, Signals and Levers with Elisabeth Hendrickson and Joel Tosi

Ep. #5, Free, Like Puppies: The Real Cost of AI Code

On episode 5 of Third Loop, Heidi Waterhouse, James Governor, Adam Zimman, and Kim Harrison dig into the hype around AI-generated code and ask a deceptively simple question: if code is “free,” what does it actually cost? From token pricing and maintenance overhead to user value and developer judgment, they explore why software is never quite as cheap as it seems.

Ep. #4, Signals and Levers with Elisabeth Hendrickson and Joel Tosi

On episode 4 of Third Loop, Elisabeth Hendrickson and Joel Tosi join the hosts to discuss systems thinking, software delivery, and why organizations often solve the wrong problems. They explore their upcoming book Signals and Levers, unpacking the CREATE framework and the illusions of progress, predictability, and control. The conversation also dives into AI, user trust, feedback loops, and what it really means to improve delivery.

Ep. #3, Give It a Name: Why Software Needs a Third Loop

In this episode, the hosts unpack the thinking behind the name Third Loop and what it represents. Building on ideas from their book Progressive Delivery, they explore the gap between shipping software and having it truly adopted by users. The conversation dives into feedback loops, user agency, and why modern software requires a closer relationship between builders and consumers.

Ep. #2, Features and Futures with Kent Beck

On episode 2 of Third Loop, Kim, Heidi, and Adam sit down with Kent Beck. They explore how Progressive Delivery extends ideas from Agile and Extreme Programming by focusing on safer releases, feature flags, reversibility, and observability in production. The conversation also dives into AI-assisted coding, experimentation, and what it takes to ship software users can actually trust.

Ep. #1, The Story Behind Progressive Delivery

In this debut episode of Third Loop, James Governor, Kim Harrison, Heidi Waterhouse, and Adam Zimman explore how the concept of Progressive Delivery emerged from real-world frustrations with how the industry talked about shipping software. Drawing on experiences from companies like GitHub and LaunchDarkly, they explain how practices like feature flags, experimentation, and observability came together to form a new delivery model. The conversation also sets the stage for the podcast’s broader mission: examining technology through the perspectives of builders, users, and observers.