Thriving Leaders Podcast

Your Busyness Is a Fear Response: How our Nervous System Responds to Complexity with Jennifer Garvey Berger

If you've been feeling stretched, reactive, or like you're constantly doing more without actually moving the needle, this episode is for you. I'm joined by Jennifer Garvey Berger, CEO and co-founder of Cultivating Leadership, Harvard-educated developmental psychologist, and one of the world's leading thinkers on adult development, complexity, and leadership. Jennifer is the author of four widely acclaimed books: Changing on the Job, Simple Habits for Complex Times, Unlocking Leadership Mind Traps, and Unleash Your Complexity Genius. I first came across her work through colleagues at Harvard Kennedy School, and I've been a fan ever since. This conversation goes deep on why complexity isn't just a business problem, it's a nervous system problem, and what leaders can actually do about it. We explore how polarity thinking reframes some of the most persistent tensions in organisations, why psychological safety isn't about comfort, and what it means to lead with embodied intelligence in a world where AI is changing everything. So many nuggests of gold in this episode. In this episode, we cover: * Why complexity is experienced as a threat by the nervous system, and how that drives leaders and teams into reactive busyness instead of purposeful action * The honest bind leaders are in right now: needing to project hope while being unable to guarantee anything * What it really means to lead from the body, not just the head, and why Jennifer shifted from being a sceptic to a convert * The power of polarity thinking: how holding two interdependent goods at once transforms cross-functional collaboration and team dynamics * Why psychological safety is not about comfort, it's about the capacity to be in discomfort together * How AI is changing the way we connect (including why nervous systems can't co-regulate through a screen the way they can in person) * What thriving teams actually have in common: genuine liking, not just functional respect I loved this conversation for so many reasons, but the thing that really resonated with me was Jennifer's reframe of busyness. When leaders and team members say 'I'm just so busy right now', she suggests what they're really saying is 'I'm afraid.' And busyness becomes the modern response to a frightening world. It connects to something I see constantly in my work: leaders who are doing a lot, but not necessarily doing the right things. Pushing harder on what no longer works. Jennifer's reminder that doubling down is often a fear response, not a strategy, is one I'll be taking into my work with teams. Teams thrive when leaders slow down enough to actually show up. If this conversation sparked something for you, share it with a leader in your world who's navigating complexity right now. And if you haven't already, follow the Thriving Leaders Podcast so you never miss an episode.

Working with People You Don't Agree With, Like, or Trust with Adam Kahane

Most of us know the feeling. There's someone at the table we don't agree with, don't particularly like, or don't quite trust, and the situation isn't going away. Whether it's a difficult peer, a misaligned executive, a stakeholder relationship that's gone a bit stale, or a cross-functional partnership that feels like it's going nowhere, the instinct is often the same: work around it, avoid it, or wait it out. And as Adam Kahane will tell you, that rarely works. Adam Kahane is founding partner of Reos Partners, a global organisation specialising in collaborative approaches to complex challenges. Over more than 35 years, he has worked in over 50 countries supporting governments, corporations, and civil society through some of the world's most difficult situations, from the democratic transition in post-apartheid South Africa to peace processes in Colombia. He is the author of six books, including the newly revised Collaborating with the Enemy: How to Work with People You Don't Agree with or Like or Trust (Second Edition, 2025), which carries a foreword from Nobel Peace Laureate Juan Manuel Santos. Nelson Mandela described his earlier work as addressing "the central challenge of our time: finding a way to work together to solve the problems we have created". In this conversation, Adam unpacks why working across difference is becoming harder just as it's becoming more essential, and what leaders can actually do about it. We explore his concept of "enemyfying", the limits of conventional collaboration, and why the real breakthrough in any difficult collaboration is rarely about changing the other person. In this episode, we cover: * Why our capacity to work across difference is declining just as the need for it is increasing, and what's driving that gap * What "enemyfying" actually means, why we all do it, and why it's such an unhelpful starting point for getting anything done * The difference between conventional collaboration and stretch collaboration, and how to know which one your situation actually calls for * Why telling people to "think of the whole" or "leave your interests at the door" is often unrealistic, and in many cases manipulative * How complexity and conflict change the rules of collaboration entirely * The four options we have in any difficult situation, and why collaboration is just one of them * What Adam calls "The Click", the turning point moment that shifts a stuck group toward real progress * The most practical thing you can do when you're tempted to keep telling someone they're wrong I loved Adam's framing that working with people we don't agree with, like, or trust is not a new idea at all. What's new is how much we've retreated from it, and how much the quality of our leadership, our teams, and our organisations depends on us getting better at it again. If this conversation resonated, share it with a leader or team navigating a difficult stakeholder relationship, a silo situation, or a collaboration that feels more stuck than it should be.

Rebecca Sutherns on Team Alignment, Strategy, and Smarter Decisions

What if your team is using the same words, but imagining completely different futures? This conversation is a powerful reminder that alignment is not about sameness, it is about helping people see clearly, think together, and move forward with intention. In this episode, I’m joined by Rebecca Sutherns, trusted advisor, bestselling author, master facilitator, certified coach, and someone I deeply admire for the way she helps people unlock courage, clarity and momentum. With more than 25 years of experience, Rebecca works with mission-driven organisations to help leaders reimagine what’s next and get aligned on what matters most. In our conversation, we explore what it really takes to get people “watching the same movie” in teams and organisations. Rebecca shares why strategy needs more imagination, why leaders need to get clearer about the problem they are actually solving, and why waiting for perfect information can become the very thing that keeps teams stuck. This is such an important conversation right now because so many leaders are navigating complexity, competing perspectives, and decision fatigue. Rebecca brings a grounded, practical lens to all of it, and I think you’ll walk away with fresh ways to lead better conversations and better decisions. Let’s dive in. In this episode, we cover: * Why teams can use the same words but still be picturing completely different futures * How to create a vivid shared vision, not just another polished vision statement * Why “what problem are we solving?” is one of the most important questions a leader can ask * How to clarify decision-making criteria before people get attached to their preferred solution * Why waiting for full information is often just a stall tactic in disguise * How facilitation slows teams down at the beginning so they can move faster later * Why thriving teams do not just predict the future, they help create it I loved this conversation because Rebecca puts language to something so many leaders experience but struggle to name. My favorite part was her reminder that alignment is not about making everyone the same, it is about making thinking visible so people can understand each other, challenge well, and move forward with intention. The future does not just happen to teams. The strongest teams help shape it. If this episode resonated with you, share it with a leader, facilitator or executive team who is working through complexity and trying to make better decisions together.

Creativity is Not a Luxury, Building Creative Confidence with Paul Fairweather

So many leaders are not short of ideas. What they are short of is space, confidence, and permission to bring those ideas to life. In fast-moving workplaces, creativity can feel like something we will get to later, but as Paul Fairweather reminds us in this conversation, later rarely comes. In this episode, I’m joined by Paul Fairweather, creative leadership speaker, workplace culture facilitator, former CEO of a 55-person architectural practice, award-winning architect, artist, and author of Bold, Brave, and A Bit Quirky. Paul helps leaders and teams reconnect with their creative confidence, not as a nice-to-have, but as a vital capability for problem-solving, connection, and innovation in a world increasingly shaped by AI. In our conversation, we explore what creativity really means, why so many capable people don’t see themselves as creative, and how leaders can create the conditions for more original thinking at work. We also unpack the tension between AI and human creativity, why uncertainty is part of the creative process, and what practical leaders can do to build more creative, thriving teams. This is such an important conversation right now, because in a world that is becoming faster, noisier, and more automated, the human skills of curiosity, creativity, courage, and connection matter more than ever. In this episode, we cover: * Why creativity is often misunderstood, and why it is about far more than art * How Paul defines creativity as identifying potential or opportunity, then fostering its development * What leaders can learn from staying longer in uncertainty, instead of rushing too quickly to clarity * The difference between using AI as a helpful tool, versus using it as a substitute for original thought * Why many adults have had their creative confidence diminished over time, and how to rebuild it * How simple, practical exercises can help teams think differently and unlock fresh ideas * What thriving teams need in order to create, connect, and contribute more meaningfully together I loved Paul’s reminder that creativity is not just about ideas, it is also about the courage to do something with them. Thriving teams are not built by speed alone. They are built when leaders create enough safety, space, and confidence for people to think, experiment, and contribute in more meaningful ways. Creativity thrives when leaders make space for uncertainty, not just answers. If this episode resonated, share it with a leader, teammate, or creative thinker who needs a reminder that their ideas still matter. Until next time, keep leading with curiosity and heart.

Collaboration, Prioritisation and Breaking Down Silos with Dr. Heidi Gardner

Many leaders know collaboration matters, but far fewer have figured out how to make it work across silos, competing priorities, and complex stakeholder relationships. In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Heidi Gardner, Distinguished Fellow at Harvard Law School, former Harvard Business School professor, Thinkers50 ranked thought leader, and co-author of Smart Collaboration and Smarter Collaboration. In this conversation, we explore what smarter collaboration really looks like in today’s workplace, and why working across boundaries is both more necessary and more difficult than ever. Heidi shares practical insights on trust, healthy conflict, over-collaboration, stakeholder alignment, and the leadership behaviours that create the conditions for innovation and high performance. In this episode, we cover: * Why hyper-specialisation makes collaboration harder, just as the problems leaders face become more complex and multidisciplinary * The importance of starting with a shared goal and being clear on each person’s role * How over-collaboration drains time, energy, and trust in the very idea of collaboration * Why conflict is not the problem, but unmanaged conflict is * The difference between competence trust and character trust, and why both matter * How leaders can create space for challenge, curiosity, and better decision-making under pressure * Navigating collaboration within your team and cross-functional collaboration * Practical ways to align with stakeholders, navigate conflicting priorities, and communicate progress toward big goals I loved Heidi’s reminder that collaboration is not about involving everyone in everything. It is about being intentional, drawing on the right expertise at the right moment, and creating enough trust for people to challenge each other without tipping into relationship conflict. Which is especially important in the complex environments teams are operating in. Smarter collaboration is not more collaboration, it’s better collaboration. If this episode resonated, share it with a leader or team who are navigating silos, stakeholder tension, or the complexity of cross-functional work. Links: * ⁠Smart Collaboration⁠ [https://store.hbr.org/product/smart-collaboration-how-professionals-and-their-firms-succeed-by-breaking-down-silos/10001?srsltid=AfmBOopPuwHECtWVNM2-cYX-Hu8HawUafNnjN3ua7FMJlfZaM2Ak3JSZ ] * ⁠Smarter Collaboration ⁠ [https://store.hbr.org/product/smarter-collaboration-a-new-approach-to-breaking-down-barriers-and-transforming-work/10535?srsltid=AfmBOorO1aV-IcztRnuBus_bJnngvW56--5yRjkKi4Usr4Nsk49ApIrS] * ⁠Collaborating with GenAI: Lessons from Heineken’s Use of the “PowerBot”⁠ [https://57fc9cb4-d299-4ce0-a0a4-4a491f421dad.usrfiles.com/ugd/57fc9c_a714b6c503044fd78259ef75ce3984aa.pdf ] * ⁠Using GenAI as a Collaborative Teammate [https://magazine.wharton.upenn.edu/digital/using-genai-as-a-collaborative-teammate/ ]