Belly Dance Podcast A Little Lighter

This interview with Rachel Brice dives deep into recent American belly dance fusion history and fashion. Rachel reminisces about her influencers Suhaila Salimpour, Carolena Nericcio of FatChanceBellyDance® (formerly ATS), and Jill Parker, and opens up about inclusiveness and past mistakes fusing dance forms. It is such an honor and a pleasure to welcome Rachel Brice to A Little Lighter! There is a beautifully written bio of Rachel on https://www.rachelbrice.com/about [https://www.rachelbrice.com/about], so I’m going to share it with you piece by piece as we take a little journey through the career and life of Belly Dance Fusion icon Rachel Brice “Rachel Brice first fell in love with Belly Dance at 16 years old, when she saw a group [https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDbmi0HMyV8iI&v=bmi0HMyV8iI#t=5] (who later became Hahbi Ru) at a Renaissance Faire, and started classes immediately. Soon after, she discovered a video of Suhaila Salimpour [https://vimeo.com/142917276] which she obsessively studied. She began making her living by performing American Cabaret Belly Dance at restaurants and teaching yoga while putting herself through school.” JUST BEING YOUNG IS SEXY. WHAT DOES YOUR DANCE SAY ABOUT YOU AT THIS POINT IN YOUR LIFE? [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Rachel-3-1024x1024.png]#1. Let’s pause your bio here. I remember hearing you say something like, “I used to think belly dance wasn’t about being sexy. But come on. Just being young is sexy.” And that really struck me. You and I are just a few years apart in age, and after I heard you say that, I saw dancers in their 20s in a new light. What do you want your dance to say about you at this point in your life and career?  So, I’m challenging a lot of my own BS right now. it’s really easy to have ideas about what something’s gonna be like, when you arrive there. But destinations are rarely like you anticipate they’re gonna be, and that’s how aging has been. When I was younger I thought, women should embrace aging. I feel differently about my appearance. I’m not always proud of the way I feel about it. it’s different than I thought. There is something to be said for having lived through decades. We just need to find a place in our culture that celebrates experience. And I feel like a lot of times there’s this huge rift between older generations and younger generations because both of them are defending themselves instead of the older generations being fascinated and excited about the changes that are happening and the younger generations being excited about what people learned in the past. I think Gen Z’s amazing and I’m super excited by the changes that they’re making. And they seem to be really appreciating elders too. So I think something is on the horizon. For the relationship between younger and older generations. So I’m looking forward to that. SHOULD BELLY DANCERS WEAR BINDIS? I think that it’s really Gen Z that’s making us realize so much because I’m of the previous generation where when I was dancing in nightclubs and restaurants and meeting people from the Middle East, they were like, wow, how did you get interested in my culture? That’s so cool. And, then their kids come along and are like, wait a minute, you’re gonna make fun of my parents, and then you’re gonna wear a bindi? I don’t think so. So this next generation is speaking up in a way that their parents hadn’t. And I wasn’t there when that shift happened. I was happily on a plane somewhere thinking that opinions are fixed in time and space. And when I started reading, the bindi is a really great example of how many different feelings there are about a cultural object and what that object represents. I mean, there’s no way that you could say that a person from India feels A, B, or C. THE BINDI IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF HOW MANY DIFFERENT FEELINGS THERE ARE ABOUT A CULTURAL OBJECT. There are so many different feelings about it. And yeah, so the more I’m learning the more I’m realizing that whatever I do, I need to investigate it and learn enough to where I feel comfortable with doing it, but also still be open to the fact that I could learn more and need to let it go. Here’s the big challenge. WHATEVER I DO, I NEED TO LEARN ENOUGH TO EITHER FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING IT, OR LET IT GO. You know, as long as I’m more interested or as interested in how my actions affect other people as I am in how they feel about me I think that there’s the opportunity to learn. IF I AM GENUINELY INTERESTED IN HOW MY ACTIONS AFFECT OTHERS, THERE’S AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN. IF I AM DEFENSIVE, I LOSE THAT OPPORTUNITY. But if I’m defending myself like we’re gonna do, then I lose that opportunity. So, yeah, I sure hope that I find something that I feel is a respectful homage that brings people together that I’m as in love with as I was with some of the previous incarnations of the dance that I was doing. Cuz man, I had so much fun. It’s so much fun. I loved it so much and I still love it, but I just haven’t found the pants that fit, I guess. MOST BELLY DANCE VENUES HAVE DISAPPEARED, AND NOW WE DANCE FOR EACH OTHER. #2. I interviewed Suhaila Salimpour [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/suhaila-salimpour/]on this podcast back episodes 38 and 44, and we talked about the history of belly dance and where we are now. What are some of the best changes you have seen in belly dance since you started dancing in the 90s?   I think my answer’s gonna be less about the actual dance and more about the community, I think because of the loss of so many venues. We don’t have the same kind of Middle Eastern restaurants in America that we did before 9/11. The community has really decided to keep it going through all of these festivals and theater shows. And in a lot of cases, it’s dancers dancing for each other and, maybe you get five or six husbands or boyfriends or kids that were dragged there. But, generally speaking, instead of us dancing for non-dancers the way it was in the eighties and before, we’re really doing a lot for one another. And it’s a testament to how much we love this dance. No audience. Fine. We’ll do it for each other then. And I think that’s pretty amazing that we’ve figured out a way to keep it going. THE BIG BELLY DANCE BANDS HAVE DISSOLVED. #3. I believe you are a person who fully embraces your shadow self, so I think you will also appreciate this question. What are some of the unfortunate ways you have seen belly dance change since you started dancing in the 90s?  One thing for sure that I really miss is the large number of musicians hanging out on a regular basis and playing music together. In the Bay Area in the late nineties when I went to school for dance ethnology at San Francisco State, one of the awesome extras that I didn’t expect when I moved there was that I would meet this large group of people that not only hung out all the time but were constantly learning and growing and striving to be better. And I learned so much about practice from these people. One of my favorite things was that Tobias Roberson, who was my boyfriend at the time, had created this life where he would play music all day, then he would teach, and then he would do gigs. And when he was hired to play a show people were just basically seeing him do what he did all the time anyway. https://open.spotify.com/track/6NhzQCKIztsUWo7q2EMf91?si=3d4894ec24ca4e23 And I remember thinking that that was such a huge difference. Rather than practicing for a show, I felt like people got to see a snippet of his life and he didn’t have to prepare for his show because he was always playing for hours. I had such a struggle with practice. But I started to develop a practice at that time as a result of hanging out with him. And their bar for excellence was so high. And they were constantly playing music togethers like Dan Cantrell of The Toids, and Peter Jakes of Brass Menagerie and a whole crew of people that were just constantly playing music together. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/belly-dancing-to-live-music-tips/ [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/IMG_5558.jpg] Belly Dancing to Live Music Tips from Elizabeth Strong & Accordion Player Dan Cantrell Afraid to perform with a live band? Liz Strong of Belly Dance Superstars and Beats Antique and Emmy award winning musician Dan Cantrell share their best practices for dancing to live music. And so the people I was doing shows with were also my best friends, and that was an amazing time, and I really miss that. And are small pockets of musicians, but because dancers use recorded music so much you know, they don’t get a chance to work as much as they would like to. And so they have to turn their attention to real pursuits and there’s not as many musicians out there, so there’s not as many people seeing the music and getting bitten by the bug. And it was a romantic time that I hope can have a resurgence at some point just because it’s so enjoyable to have a community like that. WHEN RACHEL BRICE BELLY DANCED IN CLUBS… When I started dancing in clubs. I learned what works for dancers that are established in a club and what doesn’t work. And the first thing that doesn’t work is not meeting the dancers before you go to the owner, as you can imagine. MEET THE OTHER DANCERS IN THE CLUB BEFORE YOU GO TO THE OWNER. Once I moved to the Bay Area I went to the dancers and said: Hey, if you ever need a sub, you know, I would love to sub. And next thing you know, they’re calling me all the time. I don’t wanna go in, will you dance for me? And then I ended up being really good friends with the dancers and loving my relationship with them as much, if not more than the actual experience of performing for the audience. And Nanna Candelaria, who became a dear friend of mine, was telling me that back in the day, what she started, cuz she had been dancing for like 25 years. When I met her, she said when she started, the dancers used to put cigarette burn holes in each other’s costumes. https://youtu.be/dWrr6AknDG4 They were trying to take each other down and it did not feel like that at all. We would hang out, we’d drink wine, we’d laugh, and next thing you know, we’d go collaborate for fun for some show outside of the restaurant. It was a great experience. But that was also because the owner of that restaurant was a lovely person. Culture is often built from the top down. So if you have a good restaurant owner, you’re gonna have a good time. SUHAILA SALIMPOUR, CAROLENA NERICCIO AND JILL PARKER’S INFLUENCE ON RACHEL BRICE #4. A decade after you started dancing, you discovered Carolena Nericcio’s FatChanceBellyDance®Style (FCBD®Style) [https://fcbd.com/], formerly known as ATS or American Tribal Style. When I interviewed Carolena back in episode 58 of this podcast [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/carolena-nericcio/], she said “Successful patterns repeat themselves.” Can you tell us some of the ways that Carolena and FCBD Style changed your patterns?  Yeah. I mean, she changed everything at some point. I was in love with Sue’s technique in Dances for the Sultan [https://vimeo.com/142915405]. And if you haven’t seen it, you need to go buy it right away because everyone needs to own this piece of American belly dance history. Just stunning, amazing technique. And I wanted to be exactly like her until I saw video of myself trying to be like her… https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/suhaila-podcast-interview-2/ Belly Dance Podcast suhaila salimpour part 2 [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Belly-Dance-Podcast-suhaila-salimpour-part-2-768x768.png] Suhaila: Popping & Locking & Birthing her Belly Dance Format - 044 Find out how Suhaila, Jamila and The Salimpour School have shaped the history of belly dance and fused elements of hip hop dance with traditional Middle Eastern Dance. And then I was like, oh, that doesn’t look the same. So that was my first experience of, oh, what looks good on one person, doesn’t necessarily look natural and right on another person. And I just couldn’t find my place. And then I saw Carolena, and the first thing that I really resonated with was the posture. Was the way that she held her neck and how high her chin was and how long her neck was, and how pressed down her shoulders were and how lifted the chest was. CAROLENA NERICCIO LOOKED LIKE ROYALTY TO ME https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/carolena-nericcio/ 058 Belly Dance Podcast Carolena Nericcio [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/058-Belly-Dance-Podcast-Carolena-Nericcio-Cover-768x768.png] It's All Improv: Carolena Nericcio & FatChanceBellyDance Style - 058 The founder of FCBD Style speaks on the origin of ATS costuming, cultural appropriation, and the shift back to the name FCBD. She just looked like royalty to me, and immediately I resonated with that. She had a huge smile. And then of course the jewelry. Fell in love with the jewelry. AND THEN THE WAY THAT THE BODY LINE WORKED WITH THE JEWELRY… And later when I learned a little bit more about Masha Archer [https://www.instagram.com/mashaarcher/?hl=en]‘s intentions with the dance, I understood why it looked the way that it did. But at the time, all I felt was just what’s happening feels right. And it didn’t change my love for Suhaila’s approach to technique and to drum solo and sort of more American Cabaret technique. But I felt in love with the whole chest, shoulder, arm, neck, head relationship that I saw in Fat Chance and the whole aesthetic. RACHEL WAS DANCING FAT CHANCE FROM THE WAIST UP AND SALIMPOUR FROM THE WAIST DOWN. So I immediately started learning fat chance style, and basically, I never thought about it this way before, but in some ways you could think of it as like –  what I was working on was fat chance from the waist up and Salimpour from the waist down, kind of a thing, I guess. Because I really loved the posture and the presentation, and I also loved the improvisational vocabulary. SUHAILA’S SHAPE-DRIVEN, ISOLATION-HEAVY DRUM SOLO IMPROVISATIONAL STYLE But it didn’t change my love for like a shape-driven, isolation-heavy drum solo where you’re not pulling from a vocabulary, you’re dancing shapes. So yeah, the patterns that I started working with became more about applying some of the principles that I saw in what Fat Chance was doing to what I was already doing. And, I asked permission from Carolena about that because what I was doing was so heavily influenced by her that I said, are you okay with me kind of building an entire life on what you have done, but changing it? And she was like, yeah, sure. Thanks for asking. Yeah. So I think she’s happy to be asked , and appreciates the respect. Because yeah, She basically, changed everything. JILL PARKER CHANGED EVERYTHING And then Jill Parker, who I also know that you interviewed, Jill Parker added another dimension to that. So she was just coming out of her eight years with Fat Chance, maybe a year or two into her next project. And she was trying to move away from structured improvisation and was moving more towards what she was calling Belly Dance Theater at the time. And it was very Bay Area, you know, there was fire dancing and we were wearing shredded fabric and painting our eyes black. And the head wraps came off and the cholis came off and things got very sinister and oh God, I was in love with it. In love with it. BEFORE JILL MOVED AWAY FROM STRUCTURED IMPROV, YOU HAD TO CHOOSE A SIDE: TRIBAL OR CABARET. And that kind of broke because before Jill, you had to choose a side. It was, what was called tribal at the time. You’re either tribal or you’re cabaret and there was no fusion. And Jill just kind of blew the doors off everything. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/jill-parker-alchemy/ Belly Dance Podcast jill parker [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Belly-Dance-Podcast-jill-parker-768x768.png] Pioneer in Fusion and Folk Bellydance Genres Jill Parker on the Alchemy of Dance - ALLAF 030 Jill Parker shares what she wishes she knew when she first started dancing with Fat Chance Belly Dance, talks about tattoos, beauty secrets, and the sorcery of dance. And I think the first time I saw anyone doing it I think it was the Rakkasah performance in 2000 where Sharon Kihara [https://www.instagram.com/sharonkihara/?hl=en] was in this performance too. They all came out in what we were all expecting. Had head wraps and chos and skirts, and she came out and had like 30 people in the troupe or something, and after the first song, half of them left and finished out their thing. And then Jill and a number of dancers came back on without head wraps or cholis. And I remember the feeling. I was like, oh, I don’t think I liked that. Oh no. Like, you are not allowed. This is not allowed. You know, cuz everyone was wearing head wraps at the time. Even then it was Paulette’s [https://globalcaravandance.com/about/more-about-paulette/] group who I saw wearing flowers in their hair. But that was after, I think, so nobody was doing that. So basically all of these different patterns. And all of it really comes from Jamila. I just always continually circled back to Jamila, the vibe that she created but yeah, Carolena’s group changed everything and then Jill changed that. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/suhaila-salimpour/ Belly Dance Podcast suhaila salimpour [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Belly-Dance-Podcast-suhaila-salimpour-768x768.png] Suhaila Salimpour on Bal Anat, Jamila, and their Legacy - 038 Find out why Suhaila walked off the nightclub stage at 28, how we can show respect for the cultural origins of belly dance, and how her mother Jamila Salimpour danced her cooking.  #5. Around the same time you discovered FCBD, Jill Parker [https://www.jillparkerbellydance.org/] became your technique inspiration. Jill is one of my favorite people on the planet, and I featured Jill Parker in episode 30 of this podcast [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/jill-parker-alchemy/]. What was it about Jill’s technique that inspired you?  What isn’t it about Jill’s technique? Oh my God.  Jill Parker. I think one of the main things was that I always felt like I was scrawny. I am embracing the way that I was built now. I know there’s room for all of us, but at the time I had this idea of what a belly dancer was supposed to look like, and I didn’t look like that naturally. I mean, the first dancer that I saw was super curvy. And what I really responded to was the reverb of her costume. Like she had tassels on. Her movement extenders were bouncing off of her curves. And I was like, I think that’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen in my life. AND THEN I START DANCING, AND I FELT LIKE I DIDN’T HAVE THAT REVERB. AND I WANTED TO LOOK LIKE OTHER PEOPLE. I WANTED TO HAVE A BELLY, I WANTED TO HAVE SOFTNESS. I wanted to be curvier. WHEN I SAW JILL, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAD EVER SEEN THAT REALLY MUSCULAR SERPENTINE. Like that muscular rippling that happens when a cat is hunting or a snake is slithering. That intense ripple that was accentuated by her belly tattoos. The grapes that she had tattooed on her belly. You could see the skin sort of sliding over the muscle. And I was like, oh yeah. So for the first time saw a way forward. AND I SAW JILL’S SLOW STUFF TOO. AND THAT WAS HUGE BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH WORK TO DANCE SLOW LIKE THAT AND TO HAVE IT LOOK AND FEEL WEIGHTLESS. AND TO HAVE NO BREAK IN THE ENERGY IN THE TORSO. And because she had just been doing the Fat Chance vocabulary for eight years, it was completely effortless for her. She’s as close to perfection as I’ve ever seen, and she has this crazy rotation in her shoulder joints where I’m like, does she even have an acromium process? Like upper arm bone I feel like doesn’t bump up against any other bones, and she could. Keep rotating her arms forward, which means that her elbows can go really high with no effort and mine can’t. I’m like bone on bone. So there were so many things about watching Jill that opened up all kinds of possibilities and falling in love with the slow stuff. Where in the American Cabaret restaurant world, the slow stuff was really, really sexy and sultry and hands in the hair and, peeling away the veils and I love watching other dancers do that, but it doesn’t really feel like personal expression for me. JILL’S SLOW STUFF TO ME LOOKED LIKE HUNTING. LIKE A CAT WHEN IT’S IN THE BUSHES AND IT’S SLOWLY CREEPING FORWARD AND IT WAS MENACING AND WEIRD AND FABULOUS AND I WAS LIKE, OH MY GOD. IT CHANGED EVERYTHING. https://youtu.be/ZNwsqntreWQ It made me feel crazy. I remember at the time saying, I just feel like I got punched in the gut and the face at the same time, like Jill’s dancing just punched me everywhere in the front that I was out. So, yeah. It changed everything. AND THEN IN ADDITION TO ALL THAT MOVEMENT THAT WAS REALLY UNIQUELY HERS SHE ALSO WAS INTERESTED IN FASHION. I was in Jill Parker’s dance company for a while, and you’d go to her place where she had classes and she had W Magazine all over the place, and she had pictures all over her walls, and she was fusing belly dance with flamenco. She had a dancer friend named Carola Zertuch. They had a dance company called Zambra Bailar Yalla! And they actually got into the San Francisco Ethnic Dance Festival here doing a choreography together in their respective styles. So she was really pushing the envelope in a number of ways, but also fusing it with pop culture, which I hadn’t seen before. I HAD ALWAYS FELT LIKE I WAS REJECTING MY CULTURE AT FIRST. JUST LIKE, I DON’T CARE WHAT AMERICANS ARE DOING, WHATEVER. I’m gonna do this other thing. And then Jill was somehow reintegrating it in an interesting way. So yeah, she just changed what the rules were and what I thought was possible in so many ways. WHO WERE RACHEL BRICE’S INFLUENCERS? #6. You earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Dance Ethnology [http://www.sfsu.edu/~bulletin/previous_bulletins/1314/programs/worldmus.htm] where you studied Kathak with Chitresh Das [https://www.chitreshdasinstitute.org/], Flamenco with Rosa Montoya [https://ww2.kqed.org/spark/rosa-montoya/], Odissi with Vishnu Tattva Das [https://www.odissivilas.org/], and Dunham Technique with Alicia Pierce [https://www.facebook.com/Ms-Alicia-Rai-Pierce-41151-122408-158908620817262/]. You started to mix these dance forms with San Francisco culture and your 10 years as a restaurant dancer. Was there some connection between these dance styles that motivated you to study and fuse them?  WELL, I DIDN’T LEARN THE DANCES WITH THE INTENTION OF FUSING THEM, BUT WHEN YOU PRACTICE OTHER DANCE FORMS AND THEN YOU IMPROVISE, SOMETIMES THEY JUST END UP IN THERE. I was just taking classes with people who were teaching dance forms that I thought were beautiful and that I was fascinated by. I didn’t realize that Kathak was actually a big aesthetic influence in Carolena’s FCBD style. The Fat Chance spins at the beginning, a lot of that we inspired by Chiresh Das as well. He was famous in the Bay Area. IS THERE A CONNECTION BETWEEN FLAMENCO AND BELLY DANCE? I saw more of a connection between Odissi, Flamenco and belly dance. Before I took flamenco, I thought I might fuse more flamenco into what we were doing, cuz there’s so much of it in the posture, in the arms, in what Fat Chance does. BUT THEN WHEN I TOOK FLAMENCO WITH ROSA MONTOYA, I WAS LIKE, NO, I CAN’T. THIS IS A WHOLE OTHER LIFETIME OF STUDY. I might be able to take some inspiration from the body line, but it’s not really fusing flamenco, I don’t know how to describe it. It’s like taking one tiny little element. But yeah, after 18 weeks of flamenco, I was like, oh no, I don’t know anything about flamenco and I can’t really say with any confidence that I was fusing it. I THINK THE STUFF THAT I PRACTICED THE MOST ENDED UP IN ALL OF THE OTHER STUFF THAT I WAS DOING. I kind of wanna go back and look at these bios again because as my understanding of what I was doing is deepening. I’m attempting to more deeply understand what culture means to individuals that are raised with it it’s changing the way that I feel about how I fuse. AND I DON’T WANT TO REWRITE MY HISTORY TO MAKE IT PALATABLE. YOU KNOW, I COULD SEE THAT IT WOULD SOUND LIKE THAT. But I have a lot of journals, so I can actually read what I was feeling at the time, especially around that period cuz there was so much exploration going on. But I think sometimes when you write a bio and you’re trying to explain what it is that you do to people that may not have seen it before, it’s very easy to go for really broad strokes. So yeah, hearing that in the about section, I’m like, Ooh, maybe I need to go put a little more subtlety back in that bio. BECAUSE YES, I WAS INFLUENCED BY ALL OF THESE. BUT I FEEL WEIRD SAYING THAT I FUSED THESE STYLES BECAUSE THEY FUSED ME REALLY. I MEAN, YOU DANCE A STYLE AND IT ENDS UP IN YOU. And that’s, really I think one of the most interesting ways to play. HOW CAN WE FUSE DANCE STYLES RESPONSIBLY? #7. You recently said “Belly dance is a sort of Cosplay. I love the creation of a character that doesn’t look like they are from any one place. I still have conflicted feelings about that.” Do you have guidelines that help you see when fusing forms is appropriate and when it is not appropriate?  Ugh. All right. Here we go. Put on your seat belts, ladies and gentlemen. I think that when I realized the cosplay thing I don’t feel that great about that right now. For myself personally, it’s so multi-layered and nuanced and different every time I learned something else. But where I was at the time that I was making a lot of work and dancing all the time, I took a lot of inspiration from Frederico Fellini and his Satyricon film and what he said about creating Planet Rome. AND WHAT I DIDN’T CONSIDER AT THE TIME IS THAT, HE’S ITALIAN. HE COULD CREATE PLANET ROME. I’m not from India. Creating what I wanted to be a “Planet India” may be missing some really big pieces. And now I think that I haven’t found really where I feel that my next… Okay, let me say this. I know that I’m going to land on an answer. I know that I feel good about dancing in class and teaching what I’ve learned and sharing resources that I’ve discovered and turning students onto other teachers that are currently doing really good work. All of that makes sense to me. BUT AS FAR AS MY OWN PERSONAL EXPRESSION ON STAGE AS A BELLY DANCER, I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS RIGHT NOW. I don’t know if you saw the most recent tour from fall, I think it was last September, October where I went to Europe and Finland and Kazakhstan and performed. The night before I was supposed to go on in Finland, I’m listening to all my belly dance music that I have and all of the stuff that I used to really, really love. I have learned a little too much about what that may have represented to the people playing the music or what it meant, or I’ve considered what it might feel like for someone not connected to the music to be dancing it. AND IT ALL FELT LIKE SORT OF PANTS THAT WERE TOO TIGHT. IT JUST FELT WRONG. And I’m like, well, okay. For me, belly dance has always felt very authentic for where I was in the moment. So what have I been listening to? What have I been feeling passionate about? I’m like, Bo Burnham. But you can’t dance to Bo Burnham. I don’t know if you’ve seen “Inside” on Netflix. it’s considered a comedy special, but it’s not funny. I mean, it’s funny because it’s sad, but really, it’s sad. It’s about everything that we’re going through as a people. And it was in the middle of the pandemic. So, you know, all I’ve been doing is listening to Bo Burnham and learning more about our history and having all kinds of feelings about human beings. And I finally was like, you know what? I will do one weirdo witchy fusion thing but I’m also gonna do something that feels really authentic, which is a couple Bo Burnham songs. And in one of the songs he says, “I’ll bother getting better when I bother getting dressed”. I don’t know about you, but in the middle of the pandemic, that was a real thing for me. And I’m wearing all this jewelry. And I’m thinking, how could I go out there and dance to “I’ll bother getting better when I bother getting dressed”, like dressed to the nines? So in the song right before my piece, I said to the three dancers in the dressing room, “Can you help me take this off?” Can you help me take all the jewelry off? And there’s three dancers on me. It’s like one minute to go and we’re like pulling earrings off and they’re pulling stuff outta my hair because I had it all embedded in my hair. And I put on a Bruce Lee t-shirt and went out there and danced to this thing that was really expressing what I’m going through. All of that being said, I’m not a trained contemporary dancer. SO I’M IN THIS PLACE WHERE NO DANCE FORM HAS EVER MOVED ME LIKE BELLY DANCE DOES. AND I WANT TO RESPECT THE ROOT OF IT. AND A HUGE PART OF THE ROOT OF THE DANCE IS SELF-EXPRESSION TO THE MUSIC. AND GENERALLY SPEAKING, IT’S MUSIC THAT IS CULTURALLY YOURS AND YOU’RE CONNECTING WITH IT. So some might say that was even more true to raqs sharqi dancing to Bo Burnham in a Bruce Lee t-shirt than pretending to be from Egypt with this, Sunny Lester album or whatever. That is not truly Egyptian. https://youtu.be/jGceYrpDQ-I   It’s a huge, huge topic and I thought I would be further along in my understanding by now. But I’m working continually. I’m reading continually I’m working with a counselor specifically about understanding culture, understanding my place and my own culture. I’m learning about Orientalism. Learning about what Orientalism looks like. Learning about respectfully borrowing and studying. RIGHT NOW, I PERSONALLY DON’T FEEL COMFORTABLE COSPLAYING A CULTURE THAT EXISTS. Like, if I’m using a name or costuming that actually belongs to a people and they haven’t invited me to use it, I don’t feel comfortable using it. There may come a time where I learned something that changes that. So basically I am still exploring cuz it’s important to me and I’m still dancing and I’m still teaching. But I really don’t know how to answer your question more than: I don’t know yet. I’ll check in with me in a year. I’ll let you know if I’ve learned anything by then. ALICIA: THE DEEPER YOU GET INTO IT, THE MORE YOU REALIZE IT’S REALLY HARD TO FUSE DANCE STYLES RESPONSIBLY. Alicia: Well, it’s like what you said, you took 18 weeks of flamenco to realize you’re not comfortable fusing flamenco with what you were doing. The deeper you get into it, you realize it’s harder to do in the way I wanna do it than I thought before.  Very well put. Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. #8. When I interviewed your friend Ceremonial Botanical Bodywork Practitioner Rachel Fisher back in episode 53 [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/rachel-fisher-053/] of this podcast, she mentioned your appreciation for “The Little Book of Talent”. That inspired me to read the book, and fall in love with the concept of “smallest achievable perfection”. Something I can focus on and achieve rather than doing multiple things half-ass. Do you think that is a helpful book for dancers to read?  I THINK LITTLE BOOK OF TALENT IS AN ESSENTIAL BOOK FOR DANCERS TO READ. [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Rachel-4-300x300.png]                     Little things like when I would learn a choreography outside of the practice space when I was working with other people, if there was a part that I didn’t get, I would be like, I’ll take care of that part later. And I would skip over it and then I would never learn those parts. And then I started getting stage fright because I would push my hotspots away, the parts that I didn’t know. And then I started thinking I was just bad at choreography. So things like that. [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Rachel-1-300x300.png]STOP WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE. STOP AND CORRECT IT. Make sure that those little hotspots are the spots that you focus on before you go on. Slow it down and break it into chunks. IF SOMETHING IS TOO HARD, IT’S EITHER TOO FAST OR TOO MANY THINGS. Learning the difference between soft skills and hard skills. I didn’t understand that hard skills require a totally different type of practice than soft skills. And people usually say, oh, I’m an improviser, or I’m a choreographer. And after reading that book I was like, oh no, we have a natural tendency to go for one or the other, but we can develop strength in the other one with the right kind of practice. So it’s only 52 tips, but felt, so complete to me. As far as answering all these questions that I had about practice. So yeah, that and also has booked the Talent Code. It’s so funny because I put it into practice just last night and was talking about it today. Again, my mom and I are trying to learn the theme song for Big Bang Theory, just cuz we watch it so much and we’re tired of having it stuck in our heads without knowing parts of it. Cuz you know how infuriating that is to be like the whole world of what’s that part? So we decided last night we were gonna learn it. And so I thought, okay, first thing we need to do is slow it down and break it into chunks. And so we did exactly what Daniel Coyle talks about in the opener of the Talent Code. We would start from the beginning, we’d go till we messed up, we would focus on the mess up part, make sure we did that part correctly, then go back to the beginning and then go until we messed up in a different part and fix that part. And yeah, so if you’re at all interested in creating a practice and it’s such a quick read, isn’t it? It looks like a little gift book. It looks like something that wouldn’t have anything useful in it, but every tip is like really solid, so, absolutely. Yeah. Alicia: I got it on audiobook and kept listening to it while I was cleaning and whatnot. Yeah. and just like thinking about how to help my kids excel mm-hmm. At what they’re going to choose as their passion, their superpower, you know? Yeah. I loved so much of that. Oh yeah. It’s great. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/rachel-fisher-053/ Belly-Dance-Podcast-Rachel-Fisher-Compassionate-Dancer [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Belly-Dance-Podcast-Rachel-Fisher-Cover-4-1-768x768.jpg] Rachel on Darkness, Dance and the Medicine All Around Us - 053 Healing yourself is possible, even in rich dark nights of the soul. Find out how Ceremonial Botanical Bodywork practitioner Rachel Fisher heals, how she became friends with Rachel Brice, and hear how she got 250,000 followers on social media and then let them go.  HOW DO YOU PRACTICE BELLY DANCE? But I had no idea how to practice. That was my biggest challenge is how do you get the stuff in your body? Do you just repeat it over and over? Like, do I just ignore my mistakes? Do I arrange a practice ahead of time, or do I just do what I feel like doing in the moment? Or, you know, how do you, organize something that becomes efficient, that gets you from point A to point B when you need to get there? Dunham technique was huge in considering how to approach a practice. Alicia: You could just see how precise and how beautiful your technique has been for so many years, how much you practiced, how much you thought about it, how much you did, you looked at it over and over again. You know, I do really admire that. Well, nothing ever made me feel that way. Even boys. And I loved boys. I loved looking at them and listening to men talk, but I did not love them as much as I loved watching belly dance technique. BELLY DANCE TECHNIQUE WHEN DONE WELL, WOULD MAKE ME INSANE. IT GAVE ME FEELINGS THAT I CAN’T EXPLAIN. [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Rachel-Brice-2-300x300.png]                       And I think most belly dancers know what I’m talking about. Where you go watch a show and when somebody hits it, you’re just like, oh my God. You just lose your mind. And I just loved reaching for it. And every once in a while I’m like, oh, you know, I’ve been in this relationship with the dance form for like, oh my God, how long? 1988. What? It like 36 years or something. And I keep thinking, yeah, maybe I don’t feel that way. And then I’ll watch Heather dance. Heather, who’s in Portland [https://www.instagram.com/hennadances/?hl=en] here and just be like, I’m wanna scrape my skin off. She’s so beautiful. Like I still get that feeling about belly dancers that moved me. [https://embed-ssl.wistia.com/deliveries/9f2ea49c92707da26128bbb3a2efe22b91ab0e02.jpg?image_play_button_size=2x&image_crop_resized=960x540&image_play_button=1&image_play_button_color=00303fe0]https://hennadances.podia.com/about?wvideo=acls20wsco About [https://hennadances.podia.com/about?wvideo=acls20wsco] I mean, yes, there was definitely an element of like, I should practice, which never worked for me. Cuz the more I’d be like, you have to, you must, then it just became a chore. But then when it was like, oh my God, this is so fun. I love it so much and I’m learning something and oh my God, I love this drum soul and I’m achieving and it was so fun to practice. I ENDED UP MAKING A PRACTICE REGIMEN BECAUSE IT WAS FUN TO PRACTICE. I did not have 20 hours a day to practice. And half of that time was just wandering around the room, figuring out what I wanted to do. So yeah, that’s how it came about. I mean, that’s not the thing that floats everybody’s boat. And I don’t think it has to be. One of the first times I worked with Donna Mejia, all the teachers that she hired for her summer event were required to adhere to certain principles. And she would give you the sheet of paper when you first arrived and you would read it and agree to it. And I remember where I was standing, it had such impact. THERE WAS ONE LINE IN THESE PRINCIPLES THAT SAID, IT IS NOT UP TO YOU TO DETERMINE OR JUDGE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE’S DANCE EXPERIENCE MEANS TO THEM. And I was like, oh my God. And I mean, such. A huge impact on me because I think most of us assume that our perspective is just like this is. What dance is, or what dance is supposed to be or what your priorities should be or what’s most important and I remember reading that and being like, oh my God, I don’t know why someone else is dancing. I don’t know what their path is. Therefore, how could I tell someone else what their practice should be or what they should be working on, or what their hierarchy of importance should be? So that was really humbling, but also opened up a lot for me. SOME PEOPLE BELLY DANCE FOR SOCIAL REASONS. SOME PEOPLE FOCUS ON TECHNIQUE AND WESTERNIZE BELLY DANCE. And people are like, oh yeah, people in the dance for social reasons. And I’m like, oh God, that’s just terrible. How could you? Isn’t it that from what we know, the origin of the dance is like to bring together and to dance at a party and to enjoy each other’s company? I mean, a lot of people would be like, how dare you focus on technique and westernize this stuff? There’s something beneficial coming out of it. If we’re doing it with respect we still can’t know how it’s gonna impact each other. #9. In 2001 you were “discovered” by rock mogul Miles Copeland [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Copeland_III], and toured for several years with his company, The Bellydance Superstars [http://www.gildedserpent.com/aboutuspages/MilesCopeland.htm#axzz51nDKbFGV]. It has been really fun to interview the Bellydance Superstars Artistic Director Jillina on this podcast as well as Kaeshi Chai, who was also in BDSS. That is also where you started making costumes influenced by the late 1800s to 1920s together with Mardi Love [https://youtu.be/78_qMo2h52o]. BDSS toured the world, youtube emerged, and a global interest in your emerging style of Belly Dance grew. Do you remember a moment when you realized that you were creating a legacy?  We don’t know what is going to be a fad and what will be a legacy. I feel like I could create a program where you start at square one and we know what we’re going for. We know where we wanna end up and I can assist people in getting there. But I have no idea what’s gonna happen with it. It’d be great if it continued without me, which is why I didn’t name it after myself, cuz I wanted it to, belong to all of us. And I have a personal style that’s different than the style that was on stage with belly dance superstars. And I feel like that’s the style I’m really codifying and trying to simplify and just name all the component parts. THE FIRST TIME RACHEL BRICE THOUGHT TRIBAL FUSION BECAME A DANCE FORM I can tell you the first time that I realized that people felt that fusion was a dance form because I didn’t think it was a dance form I don’t know if I thought of it as a legacy, but like, oh, people are thinking this is like, A thing that has edges. And that was on MySpace. There was a dancer who said that she did cabaret and at the time we were calling it tribal fusion. And she had a picture of herself in a Bela, like an Egyptian bra belt set. And then she had another picture of herself. She was wearing a coin bra and two big roses and a yarn belt with pantaloons so this was her tribal fusion outfit and this was her American cabaret outfit. AND I REMEMBER THINKING, TRIBAL FUSION IS NOT A NOUN, IT’S A VERB. [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Rachel-5-300x300.png]Like I’m fusing things and it changes every year. You can’t go get your tribal fusion costume. You can’t just say you do fusion unless you’re studying many dance forms and fusing those with Carolena’s style. And that’s what it meant to me at the time. But now I feel like if I hold to that opinion, I’m like a parent that’s insisting that their child becomes a doctor or something. Like at a certain point you’re like, this is my child. My child will be what it is and it will grow and change in the way that it grows and changes. AND THEN I WAS LIKE, OKAY, WELL THEN LET’S LOOK AT WHAT I WAS ACTUALLY DOING AT THAT TIME AND WHAT THE COMPONENT PARTS WERE AND THEN HOW THE CONSTANT CHANGE CAN HAPPEN. And the reason that I sort of settled into that was because of something my yoga teacher Gary Kraftskow said, who has completely shaped the way I feel about teaching. Like he’s my number one influence in my approach to teaching. And someone asked him, what if someone comes to you and they wanna learn headstand, but it’s clear when looking at their posture that’s not really what they need. And my first thought was, will you have to be authentic? And you have to, tell them what you think. And he thought for a while, and he said, well, if you give them what they want, you will then have the opportunity to give them what they need. IF YOU GIVE STUDENTS WHAT THEY WANT, THEY YOU WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY NEED. And I was like, what? I never considered that. You could meet a student with the questions because they’re gonna have different questions the longer they study. Like you were saying earlier, the more you learn, the more you’re like, oh, I started out there, but I can’t do that anymore. If someone’s like, oh my God, I love tribal fusion and I want to do this thing like the Indigo did in 2006, and I do this kind of dance. How disappointing would it be for me to be like, well, “I don’t call it…” Okay, well Rachel, why don’t you take a deep breath and look at what the hell you were doing and show people that. And then after four phases, maybe you could tell them, you know what? It’s really exciting. Not any of that. THAT’S JUST THE VEHICLE FOR GETTING YOU TO THE JUICY STUFF, WHICH IS ACTUALLY FORGETTING ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE. JUST TOTALLY DISSOLVING INTO THE MUSIC. FEELING SO EXCITED ABOUT WHAT YOU MADE AND WHAT YOU’RE WEARING AND THAT YOU TOOK THE RISK TO MAKE SOMETHING YOU HAVEN’T SEEN BEFORE. And that you put these things together. THAT YOU’RE CONNECTED WITH THE PRINCIPLES OF BEAUTY RATHER THAN MAKING A COSTUME BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE’S COSTUME THAT YOU SAW. You have to start somewhere. so I feel very comfortable now with teaching a set style of dance that has been codified because I feel like the whole time, my actual message is we’re gonna learn this so you can discard this if you want to eventually. So I don’t know if that answers the question about legacy, but yeah. There was a moment I realized it was the thing, and at that time I didn’t get how that could actually be useful, I guess. And now I feel like I’m getting in touch with that a little more. Alicia: Nice. Yeah. Carolena said something similar when they went out on stage and was it Morocco was named what she was doing. Yeah. like Carolena hadn’t put herself in that box yet. Took other people to kind of put the box around for her to go, oh, okay. So there’s something changing here. Yeah. Yeah. It was one of Morocco’s students said, Morocco thinks you’re tribal. And at first Carolena was like, “Well they really got a lot of nerve naming my style”, you know. but she didn’t connect with at the moment was that on the East coast, which is where Morocco was teaching. They were using that as a descriptor for anybody that wasn’t, you know, sparkly. They’re all wearing stripes. And if you go back and read all the Arabesque magazines, which was like the East Coast magazine of the seventies and eighties they would talk about, oh, this dancer is doing it in the tribal style. And she always had on stripes and like, more earth tones and wasn’t so sparkly. So basically Morocco could have just been saying, oh yeah, that group is sort of like East Coast tribal style. But it wasn’t, it was a description rather than a name for a style those are my words, not Carolena’s. Carolena’s words were, wow, you’re naming my style for me. Huh? And then she said she thought about it later and was like, actually, you know, that makes a lot of sense. we are, we sort of are. So I love that story because you know, words can mean so many things and for Morocco’s student, I can’t speak for her cuz I don’t know what she was thinking, but I can only assume that she was just saying, yeah, Morocco recognizes your style is similar to a style of dancers we have on the East coast. And then it changed everything over here. So it’s interesting. AMERICAN BELLY DANCE HISTORY Listen to the full podcast to hear Rachel answer these questions as well! Alicia: I think one of your gifts to our world belly dance community is your playfulness. When you and Mardi and Zoe Jakes [http://zoejakes.com/] created a show called Le Serpent Rouge [https://youtu.be/6n74539qgVk?t=3m1s], you gave many dancers a license to play. What do you cherish about that show?  Alicia: We are recording this interview in March 2023, and The Mega Massive 2023 starts soon, and I am super excited to head out to Vegas to see Ebony and Zoe Jakes and Amy Sigil dance in person! They are just a few of the incredible instructors we can learn from on Datura Online [https://daturaonline.com/] which is an incredible resource for dancers. It must have taken a ton of heart and time to grow Datura to the size it is now. What motivated you to create Datura online back when so little structured belly dance instruction was available online?  Alicia: What are some of the things that makes Datura an amazing program?  Alicia: Tell us about your 8 Elements Program, and what dancers take home from that experience.  Alicia: Back when I first asked you to be on this podcast back in early 2022, you were working with a coach and processing cultural appropriation and fusion and your life. You did a dive deep into this in your Bedtime Stories series on youtube [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRlyeUzKdHmgszJuEIaprENu4I2c3U180]. In the 21st episode, you again mention your coach’s clarity, compassion and unity that she wants to bring to the world. You said that she sometimes drops a bomb of love and clarity that melts all of these defenses that you have. Are you up for sharing one of these bombs your coach dropped on you that might help us grow as well? Alicia: Let’s end with something we can eat 🙂 You recently said something like “Dance is more like making food than painting a picture.”  I love that. What is one vegan whole food ingredient you love? Thank you so much for sharing your insight and life stories on the show Rachel!

Most dance in our era is performative, but dance can do so much more. Harlem High School Assistant Principle and dance teacher Kierra [https://www.shakingspiritwaves.com/] talks about dances for healing, transformation, connection, and acceptance. Alicia Free: Kierra Foster-Ba [https://www.shakingspiritwaves.com/] is a Body Wisdom Coach and New York City dancer who has done some deep work, and her presence is a gift. I am so excited to share Kierra’s voice with you! Kierra dances with Kaeshi Chai and PURE (Public Urban Ritual Experiment) [http://www.pureglobe.org/] an international organization of artists devoted to using belly dance to promote peace and end suffering. I met Kierra when I was running around wildly putting on a show with Kaeshi. I was hosting 10 performers, managing our band Taksim Ithaca, dancing with the band Beatbox Guitar, coordinating volunteers, buying and hauling concessions up the elevator, and trying to take care of my 3 and 5 year old kiddos at the same time. It was a little intense the way I did it.  When Kierra smiled at me, calm washed over my body. I needed that!  After the show, we took a workshop together with other dancers, writing our intentions in the water in the creek near my home. Letting the water heal us. It was so magical. After that experience opened me up, Kierra mentioned a dance-based meditation practice that she teaches. I relaxed into the most incredible hug with Kierra, and I wanted to know more about how she has cultivated this energy that shines through her. I wanted to share it with you.   Kierra dances for human liberation. She helps us tap into the wisdom of our bodies with dance. To practice deep permission and acceptance. Giving us permission to be both graceful and graceless.  https://youtu.be/30a85_R_XGE https://youtu.be/uyhs2mNLgyA?t=92 https://youtu.be/qm0cM2fa1ik Let’s start with the 5Rhythms classes that you’ve been offering in New York City since 2008. Tell us about that Kierra 5RHYTHMS CLASSES IN NEW YORK CITY SINCE 2008 Okay. So I just want to back up a little bit if that’s okay. Cause there are some people who might not be familiar with the 5Rhythms. So I want to give a little bit of a history of the 5Rhythms. GABRIELLE ROTH IS THE FOUNDER OF THIS BODY OF WORK, AND SHE REALLY WAS ONE OF THE PIONEERS. Some people say she was the originator. There’s some conflict about that. As it always is, there’s more than one person who’s pursuing something at the same time as someone else. But she definitely was one of the pioneers of what we now call conscious dance. Sometimes people call it ecstatic dance. In fact, many people who’ve gone on to create their own bodies of work came through her lineage. And so what I know of her story is that she is someone who was a classically trained dancer, and so that informed how she looked at the world and how she observed people. She definitely observed movement, and I like to think of her as a really powerful detective of the heart because she was able to see what was being communicated in the movement. And as I said, she was a classically trained dancer. Something happened so that she wasn’t going to pursue that as a profession. And so she began to be offered dance related work and all kinds of venues, you know, everything from asylums where people were working through breaks in their psyche to work at Esalen when Esalen was just being founded as this community center for exploration and healing. 5 QUALITIES OF MOVEMENT: FLOWING, STACCATO, CHAOTIC, LYRICAL, STILLNESS And so what she discovered is that all movement can be broken down to five specific qualities. Movement is either flowing, meaning it’s continuous. One part of the movement is flowing into the next part. IT’S FLOWING. Or it’s staccato, meaning that it’s segmented. It’s very clear. Often there’s a repeated pattern, so you can see, like boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom, boom. THAT WOULD BE STACCATO, RIGHT? It’s percussive, it’s clear, it’s directional. OR MOVEMENT CAN BE CHAOTIC, YOU KNOW, JUST FLAILING. It could be continuous and staccato at the same time, or there can be this light, effortless quality to the movement. AND THAT WOULD BE THE FOURTH RHYTHM, THE RHYTHM OF LYRICAL. And the fifth and final rhythm is the rhythm of stillness. And it’s the idea that the dance movement is equally as internal as it is external an expression. So something is happening. And that’s why it’s a meditative practice because when you do the practice. BY THE TIME YOU GET TO STILLNESS, YOU REALLY DO FEEL EMPTIED OUT. We call it a wave. You started out flowing. Grounding. It started to get percussive. Maybe a little bit more energetic. The high point would be chaos. When you’re just letting it all go, whatever is in you that’s ready to be released, you are letting it go. And then after that cathartic movement you do just naturally, and there are physiological reasons for why you feel that -which I’ll talk about a little in a minute- you do feel this sense of ease and lightness, lyrical. And then when you get to stillness, you feel emptied out. And so that still voice that maybe you don’t always listen to sort of bubbling up from the deepest, wisest part of yourself you now have access to in a different way. I say that she’s brilliant for so many reasons, but one reason why I say that she’s a detective is because there are physiological reasons for why this works. For one thing each of the rhythms has what she called the gateway or the primary body part that is kind of instigating the movement. So when you’re in flowing, it’s your feet and it’s the idea of getting as far away from your head as possible, which would be your feet really dropping down into your most instinctual animal self. Then when you get into staccato, it’s the center of the body, primarily the hips. When you get to chaos, it’s the head. And in your neck, you have powerful glands that pump you with endorphins. So when you start moving your neck and not keeping it straight the way that we normally do, you stimulate those glands. So on the one hand you are shaking it all out, so you’re resetting your nervous system, which all mammals have access to do. If you’ve ever seen a mammal that was frightened, and then in order to help themselves get over it, what they do is they start to just shake and that resets the nervous system. So we have the opportunity to reset our nervous systems when we tremble and shake out, but we also are flooding ourselves with endorphins so that the release of whatever it is, frustration, rage, grief, actually after it’s done feels really good to us. And so then when we’re in lyrical, there starts to be this ethereal quality where you almost feel that powerful connection that you have with all that is. And then of course, you go into stillness, which is the place where you can actually get answers to questions you didn’t know that you had, which is often how I experienced stillness. You know, sadly it’s never the winning lotto number. Okay. But you know, it’s like all of a sudden something that in the background of my mind, I wasn’t even allowing myself to be conscious of, like a minor worry. All of a sudden the solution is just right there. I didn’t even ask the question. And the solution is right there. Yeah, when we get still, that’s what happens. So that’s the 5Rhythms. TAKING THE 5RHYTHMS IN A GYM https://youtu.be/0Ge29tf2DJ0 What happened was, I was at a gym where my first 5Rhythms teacher, who was an amazingly brilliant soul it was a gym and God bless her, but she offered the 5Rhythms in a gym. And it takes a lot of courage because you’re asking people to dance like no one’s looking, but everybody’s looking. Think about most gyms. This is a gym, you know, two of the walls are glass. People are looking in, they’re waiting for their class to begin. They’re like, “What the hell are those people doing?” But somehow she created a space where we were able to just go for it. So I’m a pretty literal thinker, so I took it as playing. I was like, oh my God. The teacher said, ” Be a circle.” I’m a circle. I’m a circle. The teacher said, “Shake it.” Oh, I’m a washing machine. I’m shaking it oo. Okay. So I was just having fun, you know, like my inner five year old was like, Oh my God, this is great. And one day I was just shaking like a washing machine. AND THE NEXT THING I KNOW I WAS SO FILLED WITH LIKE RAGE AND GRIEF SIMULTANEOUSLY. And I’m shaking and my teacher just said, “Keep moving, Kierra, keep moving.” And then I got down on the floor and I was rolling around on the floor, like just shaking and moving and crying and raging, and then it was gone. So, I don’t know to this day what caused it. But there was something in my muscle memory. There’s something about the position that I got myself in that clearly my animal self had a memory about and it was not a good one. But whatever it was left me. I didn’t even need to understand it. It just bubbled up, it got released. And this euphoric sensation, this understanding of how I am part of a whole. I am not alone. I have never been alone. I am part of a whole. I am connected with all that is, and all that will be. This very profound sense washed over me. And after that I was hooked. Alicia: I just got these waves of just like chills all over my body. I watched this video, Kierra Were you dancing rage or anger? Yes, I was. https://youtu.be/7Radhvvoryc Alicia: I couldn’t stop watching it. You were just so honest with your movement. Like yeah. Wow. Thank you for explaining that. And I’ve heard of Ecstatic dance. I’ve been to Ecstatic dance parties, but I didn’t understand the origin until now. Like I didn’t know where any of that came from. Yeah. And so I might be kind of jumping ahead. But in your introduction of me, you talked about that I believe that this is a path -one of many, I’m not saying this is the only path- but one path for human liberation. Why? WHY COULD DANCE BE A PATH OF HUMAN LIBERATION, ESPECIALLY FOR US AS MODERN HUMANS? Okay. Well, because we have evolved, especially those of us in the West, with a lot of restrictions around how we think about dance. For us in the west- and of course I’m making generalizations- but it’s almost always a performance. It doesn’t matter if you’re dancing at a wedding or dancing on stage. You don’t what people saying, “What the? What is she? Why? Did you see? What is she doing?” We don’t want that. We don’t want people to say, “You know, she couldn’t find a beat if you gave her a magnifying glass.” Like, we don’t want people saying that. WE WANT PEOPLE TO SAY THAT WE LOOK GOOD. AND SO WE PUT SO MANY RESTRICTIONS AROUND HOW WE’RE MOVING. And I see this a lot when I’ve worked with belly dancers through Kaeshi. I’ve offered classes and 5Rhythms classes. And what I have seen is that after the class, after the 5Rhythms, the movement that they were struggling to create comes much more easily. Because a lot of times when we’re in our head and we’re trying to get everything right, there’s so much restriction. Just have fun with it. It’s not the end of the world, it’s just movement. Just have fun with it. AND SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GIVE YOURSELF A DEEP PERMISSION LIKE THAT THERE’S THIS RELAXATION THAT CAN COME. And there can be greater self-acceptance. I think it’s important because I really do believe that we are all things, everything that exists is actually inside of us, whether we ever express it or not. It’s still there. So for example, I’ve long wanted to do a workshop around inner serial killer. Because I think part of the ways in which we suffer is because we don’t accept that we came to the place of polarities. This is a place of polarities. Earth is a place of polarities. It’s hard to really understand something unless you know it’s polar opposite. if you’ve never known dry, how can you really know what wet is? So, you know, building on that, the way that I look at the world. That would mean that if we are creatures that live in a place of polarity and are trying to understand what this is, it would mean that all of these things, not that we’re going to go out and do the worst thing that we’ve ever heard of, but it’s all within us. It’s all within us. And we won’t let us see those aspects of ourselves even when we can have enough self-discipline that we never do the things. AND I DON’T KNOW WHO THAT WOULD BE, BUT I’M SURE THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT, THAT HAVE ENOUGH SELF-DISCIPLINE THAT THEY NEVER EXPRESS THEIR SHADOW SIDE. I think there’s other things that they have to now do to manage that, to keep that shadow side suppressed and unexpressed. And it’s not just Carl Jung’s work that I’m building on, or Gabrielle Roth, the founder of the 5Rhythms. I’m also building on Carolyn Elliot who wrote Existential Kink because I think she’s a very brilliant woman and she really expressed everything in layman’s terms with lots of historical evidence, you know. So she’s a PhD. She’s done a lot of research on a lot of different things, and so she brings that to her work. But one of the things she talks about is the fact that most of us are run by our egos. So when we think that our egos is us, which is something that Gabrielle Roth talks about also, in fact, she has a whole body of work called mirrors, which is using the movement in the 5Rhythms to explore all the different ego characters that all of us have. But what Carolyn says is that because our spirit actually came here to know all, right, our spirit is not making a judgment between, let’s say, prosperity and scarcity. Knowing that is like exciting and rich. BUT OUR EGO IS LIKE, ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I DIDN’T SIGN UP FOR THIS. WHO SIGNED UP FOR THIS? No, I do not wanna know scarcity. No, I said prosperity. So what happens though is that there’s this little secret part of us in our subconscious that will keep creating experiences that we say we don’t want because part of us does want those experiences. So she talks about how you can integrate all of that. And part of that is by acknowledging the secret tiny little glee you have when you experience those things that your ego doesn’t want. So I think dance is a really fun and light way to express all of that. Like I can count the physical altercations that I’ve had. The last one I had, I must have been in fifth grade, and sadly I got very beat up and had to run home, you know. So I’m not someone who’s like going to be beating people up, but in my rage dance, I can f*ck a mother up. Okay? And it’s like, no one’s hurt, but this is a way for me to express that dark part of me that feels like slapping people. Alicia: There’s so much there. So one thing I’ve been working on called the connection course, and he talks about anger and just expressing but never directing your anger at anybody, but befriending your anger, right Never shoving it down, but nobody has to be a victim of your anger. You know what I mean? It comes out and it has so much truth in it, right? I just keep thinking of the inner serial killer class and like, what we resist persists, right? So the more we resist, we say, no, that serial killer is not in me. No, I’m different. They’re nothing like me. The more we resist that, the more we create the serial killer, right? Yeah. By feeling that separateness, Oh my God, there was so much. You just. Oh, I love this. I can’t wait to hear this one too. YOUR MISSION IS TO LEAD DANCE CLASSES AND WORKSHOPS ACROSS THE NATION AND GLOBE TO PROMOTE HUMAN LIBERATION AND WELLNESS. WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO REALIZE THAT THIS IS YOUR MISSION? Wow. So, there’s so many ways I can answer this question. I want to try to be really succinct and not so new agey. For anyone who’s really practical and like doesn’t really wanna hear woo woo stuff, I wanna be able to speak to that person as well. So I would say that sometimes it just happens in life that things that seem like they could never happen to you, happen to you. Okay? So I just wanted to be a dancer. I mean, I wanted to be a dancer, but I my family circumstances. When I was little, it was not set up. My dad was a single father. I’m the oldest of four girls. My dad’s a musician, you know, like his income at that time was not really steady. Like dance class is just not gonna happen. But I still was obsessed anyway, and I was one of those annoying kids that would go up to adults and be like, “Oh, does this look like a ballerina?” And they’d be like, “I don’t know kid leave me alone.” But I just would not stop. I used to get my sisters when my father was not home and we would all put on our bathing suits and get in the shower because to me, feet slapping on the water sounded like tap dancing. And I was also obsessed with tap dancing. And then what time my father came home early, and that was the end of that. Okay. But I was choreographing dances, like I just was really trying to make it happen for myself. FOR MOST FORMS OF DANCE, YOU REALLY NEED TO START AS A CHILD BECAUSE YOU REALLY HAVE TO TRAIN YOUR BODY TO BE THIS INSTRUMENT TO BECOME A PROFESSIONAL DANCER. So that just wasn’t in the cards for me. But then one day I walked into a 5Rhythms class, as I said at my gym. And that led to me being in two videos. One with Gabrielle, she created this CD series so people could do her work at home. So I was in the Power Wave video. And because I was in the Power Wave video, the filmmaker wanted me to be in Dances of Ecstacy, which was her documentation of ecstatic dance in different parts of the world. And then I was like, wait a minute. I’m doing it. I’m doing it. So clearly there’s something here. I need to really explore this. And so then I became a 5Rhythms teacher and oh, and even belly dance. It came about because Kaeshi Chai went to the premier at The Knitting Factory of Dances of Ecstasy and loved the piece that I was in, and then invited me and kept inviting me to different things. And then finally one day I went. And so that’s that connection. She selected me. She created this show called Pure Reflections: Beauty Reimagined, and I had a leading role. I played the mother goddess. And then I was like, Okay, wait a minute. THIS IS TELLING ME THAT I REALLY SHOULD PURSUE THIS DREAM. I said, No, this is not ever gonna happen for me. And so then I began to do some inner reflection like, why dance? Why is this so important to me? And all the things that I discovered. So I am someone that grew up with some really challenging circumstances and didn’t have a lot of faith or trust in people. When I first was going into 5Rhythms rooms, I wanted to dance by myself. I would often dance near the door. I didn’t even realize, but I had a very profound, like survival. Like I was always dancing by a window or a door. I didn’t even realize that whenever I went someplace, I was always scoping if I have to move quick where like, okay. I didn’t even know that about myself. I was so unconscious in so many ways. And the fact that I really love people, like I genuinely do. That doesn’t mean that I don’t dislike someone’s actions or something that they stand for. But the person who’s inside of all of that I can love. I can understand that they, like all of us, we are fear-based creatures and that they are acting from fear and ignorance. And I still could have a level of compassion. AND ALL OF THIS I GOT FROM MOVEMENT AND DOING MY OWN WORK AND REALLY COMING TO ACCEPT MYSELF COMPLETELY. Which was not really easy to do. I definitely grew up with a lot of ridicule. I was a girl that did not have a mom. I grew up at a time when people were supposed to match, and my father just said, “If it’s clean, put it on.” Okay. So I was going to school looking like hell on wheels. Okay. So you’re a mom. You can imagine what was happening to me when I would get to school. My hair just going anyway because my dad didn’t know how to comb it. And people were not enlightened. Even adults would right in front of us say, “Don’t play with those girls. Those are the girls that don’t have a mother,” right in front of us. It was really hard the way that we grew up. And it was hard on my dad. MY DAD WAS A VERY YOUNG SINGLE FATHER YOU KNOW, AND HE DIDN’T REALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT HAVING GIRLS. He also really adultified me as the oldest child because he didn’t really understand that at seven you can’t go to school and register your little sisters for school. Okay. Somehow he just thought that that was something I could do, and so I had to figure it out. When adults ask a little kid to do things that they’re not really equipped to do, but somehow they do them, what happens is that you will often feel really incompetent because somehow you kind of like made it happen, but you really didn’t have the skills. And so there’s this nagging sense of like your own incompetence. So that w as like a part of how I treated myself. I always felt like it’s just a matter of time. I don’t know when it’s gonna happen and when it does happen, it’s gonna be your own fault. I was so mean to myself. My interior dialogue was really like, I was both a victim in the serial killer, like, you know, I was tormenting myself. AND WHAT REALLY HELPED ME WAS RECOGNIZING THAT THERE WAS A PART OF ME… THAT I HAD THIS KINK THAT LIKED TO TORTURE MYSELF. You know, like I wasn’t happy unless I was tortured. So understanding and having grace, it’s just subsided. That need to constantly tear myself down. It dissipated it got satisfied once I actually saw it and said, No one’s doing anything to me. I’m doing it. I’m doing it to myself. No one did anything. No one. It can actually hurt me. It only hurts me when it connects to something that I believe about myself. Something that a lot of times is not even true. And even if it is true, if it’s not helpful, why think it? Why beat yourself up with these ruminations that are not helpful? I’m sorry if that’s a bit longwinded, but I guess I wanted to really tease into the terror that I think a lot of us, I mean. I don’t think I’m unique. I think a lot of us are so cruel to ourselves in a way that we would never be to anyone else. WE CAN’T EVEN BREATHE SOMETIMES BECAUSE THE SELF-RECRIMINATION AND CRITICISM IS CRIPPLING. It’s crippling. And so, once I understood, that there was another way for me to interact with myself, it gave me so much more compassion for other people. So much more understanding that people have to do themselves. You know, like even Trump. Trump, he has to do himself. Okay? He does. I may not like it. I may be upset because him doing him impacts so many people in a negative way. But I can’t be mad at him for doing him. I just have to do me and help other people to do themselves better so he doesn’t have the same impact. Alicia: All right, so now you all know what I was talking about when I said Kierra has done some deep work. I love that I’ve heard a couple times is if somebody else talked to us the way we talked to ourselves, we would slap ’em across the face and say, Get the outta here. You know what I mean? And we never talked to them again. And yet, this is how we talk to ourselves throughout our lives or throughout our day when we wake up. Right? I love what you said. I’m not gonna say it the way you said it. I love the way you said it, that we wouldn’t be bothered by something that somebody else says unless we think that about ourselves to some extent. And like, that just resonates so much too, because that’s that when you get triggered, right? Yeah. Because the thing is that when people say things to you that you know are not true, it’s funny to you. You’re like, Oh my God, who let you out the house? You’re an idiot, you know. Alicia: Right? You don’t get triggered by that when it’s not something been saying to yourself, but when it is something you’ve been saying to yourself, whether you realize it or not, that’s when you get activated, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. And the more compassion I have for myself, the more compassion I have for others. It’s really funny how that works. Alicia: Have you heard of Tonglen, one of the meditation practices that Pema Chodron teaches? No. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/lessons-learned-from-pema-chodron/ Belly-Dance-Podcast-Pema-Chodron [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Belly-Dance-Podcast-Pema-Chodron-1-768x768.jpg] Dance Lessons Learned from Pema Chödrön - 050 Tired of feeling tight and stressed? One of the world's most down to earth Buddhist teachers shows us how to soften, relax, create space, and find meaning in our dance lives and daily lives.  Alicia: It’s about compassion and you take on the suffering of others, but you often just start with your own suffering. Mm-hmm. you just kind of sit there. You know, it can go either way, but you breathe in the suffering of yourself or of others, and you give it space and you say, Well, what does this call for? I mean, it’s a process. It’s not that, you know, bam, bam, bam. No, I don’t know it in that way, but I’ve definitely been in meditation circles where that was a direction we were given. Mm-hmm. Alicia: Yeah. That’s the thing, right? Once you have that compassion for yourself, you’ve created the space to have compassion for others, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Alicia: It’s a matter of space. It’s a matter of freedom. It’s like this freedom of movement too. When you’re moving so freely. When I watched that video of you being so angry, it gave me permission to move more freely you know. Oh, thank you. Well, thank you for that feedback, because that’s my intention. My intention is that, and why this is really important to me is, I just don’t know how much time we as a species have left. Because of choices that we have made, choices that the ones who came before us have made. I don’t know how much time we have left. So for example, right now I’m just teaching online and at the end of every class, we go through the wave and then at the end of the class, I have people check in to see if they feel complete, because I only want them doing this from a place of fullness. And so then we will dance one or two more dances, but we are dancing for the larger society. Gabrielle said that the 5Rhythms doesn’t mean a thing unless you take it to the streets. So yes, it’s a powerful tool for self-actualization, for self-healing and transformation. BUT WE DO HAVE A SACRED DUTY. The sacred duty is of course, to first uplift ourselves, but in the very next breath, uplift the other. We are not alone. We are intimately connected in ways that it’s hard for us to wrap our mind around. But think about the pandemic. We could not be in the same room with each other because when I breathe out, you breathe in. So that’s how connected we are. Hm. Alicia: Love it. And I do wanna say, I think most of my listeners are into quite a bit of woo woo. So, I like how you were like, this is what happened the journey and… yeah. So feel free to put in a lot of woo woo too, if you’d like. But I loved the way you explained how you got to your mission. YEAH. IT DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING IF YOU DON’T TAKE IT TO THE STREETS. YEAH. Alicia: I love these people that meditate in caves for 12 years and then they come out, you know, and they come out. That’s the magic, right? Yeah. It’s also very hard to maintain that, right? Because now, they are on a higher vibration, but human beings are very social, so we wanna connect with other people. So eventually, if you haven’t developed a meditation practice that is in community, you’re gonna be pulled down to the vibration of everybody that’s around you. Or you’re gonna have to extricate yourself, but you can only maintain that high vibration by bringing others with you. You know? The other thing that I think is one of the reasons why I like to introduce myself as a body wisdom coach, because I think one of the things that we as modern humans forget is that we are primates. WE ARE PRIMATES. THAT IS A GROUP WE BELONG TO. And all the other primates, except for us, spend a lot of time touching each other. I mean, they are hierarchical like us and so it follows hierarchical lines, but they’re constantly grooming and touching each other and rolling around. THEY HAVE A LOT OF SKIN TO SKIN CONTACT, AND I THINK THE FACT THAT WE DON’T CAUSES A LOT OF THE SUFFERING. BECAUSE WE HAVE OUR ANIMAL NEEDS THAT DON’T GET MET. And we try to, as modern humans, talk ourselves out of that. That doesn’t make sense. That’s not appropriate. you know, all of this stuff can be resolved just by taking somebody’s hand in your hand and just sitting and holding hands. Without having a big old conversation. Just that skin to skin is really important. And one of the things that I find the 5Rhythms, of course, but lots of forms of conscious dance allow for is when you dance and sweat and open up, there’s a way that you then become open to physical contact in the way that you might not have been before you danced. And I just think of that as really important. I think if we could dance together, pile on each other, like all of that, we are just gonna have the society that we really want. Alicia: You see kids too, how much they touch each other and touch us. Yeah. Right. Like, okay for them when you get to be older, it’s not okay anymore. Right? Yes. And primates too. They’re touching trees, they’re touching leaves, they’re touching rain water, they’re touching dirt. You know, all these things that we’ve isolated ourselves from, you know, in these structures. AND ON THE 5RHYTHMS WEBSITE, I SAW A THICH NHAT HANH QUOTE THAT SHE HAD WAS “COMMUNITY IS THE NEXT BUDDHA.” Alicia: And I was like, I, I actually wrote it on a post-it note and stuck it above my computer. Cause I’m like, this is why I make this podcast. You know, the community. Yeah. It’s the community. We are creating this universal consciousness. WITH THE DANCE, WITH THE CONVERSATIONS, WITH THE CONNECTION, WE’RE CREATING THIS. Yes. You know, Well, I would say that we’re recreating it because early humans did live in clans and… yeah. I just feel like we’re just gonna go to hell in a hand basket if we don’t really start doing the things that we actually need as a species. Like, that’s why I feel that we have so much addiction, it’s rampant. WHY? BECAUSE WE GET SO FEW OF OUR ACTUAL NEEDS AS A SPECIES. We need to be in community with each other. We came to this planet of diversity. We came and incarnated as one of the most diverse, if not the most diverse. Humans are so diverse. We have it all, every single shade that is every, height and width and you know, the, the shape of the body. Like the eyelash length, like we just have it all. So instead of like marveling at our endless creativity, the endless possibility and how we show up in the world, we choose to not like it think everyone should be the same. And that if they’re not, they don’t belong. Like what kind of crazy mess is that? Like you came here. You incarnated as a human specifically to have this experience. Only to be in denial. I don’t know. We’re complicated and messy. So that’s why I feel like the only way out for us is to keep expanding. Expanding our circle, expanding our own, and developing our self-love so that we have more love for each other. Alicia: Oh, I love this part too. Surprise. Kierra is assistant principal at a high school in Harlem, so she is an educator in multiple realms. I also saw that you went to Yale. And I would total nerd for the Ivy League Cornell, you know, of I league institutions because there’s so much progress that comes out of these schools and they’re so pretty. I love the old architecture in a lot of them. And I watched an amazing video of you speaking about your work as assistant principal and you included dance in that conversation. And I was just amazed. I was like, Oh no, she’s not gonna talk about dancing here. And you did! So how has dance impacted your other work? For example, your work as assistant principal? DANCE AND WORK AS AN ASSISTANT PRINCIPLE IN HARLEM HIGH SCHOOL So I’m still trying to figure it out because teenagers are hard. It’s a really challenging part of their lives. Especially because you know, in earlier times would’ve been considered adults. Even though we understand more about the human brain, and we know that they’re really not adults in terms of understanding consequences. BUT THEIR BODIES ARE REALLY ADULTS BECAUSE IN, EARLIER TIMES THEY WOULD’VE ALREADY BEEN HAVING FAMILIES AND STUFF LIKE THAT. So it’s an interesting group. I say all that because my dream was to be able to teach the 5Rhythms in school. I’ve brought in other modalities into my school. We work with an organization called IBREA [https://ibreafoundation.org/], which is an international organization that teaches mindfulness. It’s like a interesting combination of meditation and yoga and Tai chi. Because a lot of it is not only based on reframing things, but also on the meridians. In fact my school was on the CBS News because of the work that IBREA does in my school. So I have been able to bring other things in, but the 5Rhythms is really hard. IT’S HARD TO GET DANCER TEENAGERS WHO ARE SO SELF-CONSCIOUS TO DANCE LIKE NO ONE IS LOOKING. And so I actually went on a workshop this past August, just before school started with someone who teaches people how to bring not just the 5Rhythms, but you know, theater games and movement games to bring them into the school. So I just finished that part one of that training. So the work that I do with students is not as physical as I would like. I did have a 5Rhythms club. But it was hard, you know, clubs, people come when they want. It was hard to sort of maintain them. They kind of like the idea. But this was also really early. This was probably like 2009. Now I would do it very different. I have a lot more tools in my toolkit in terms of how to entice kids to move. But I would say that what I do although it’s not dance, I focus a lot on finding out, for example, what kind of learner am I. And I don’t know how familiar you are with the work of Howard Gardner. Okay. So he pioneered this work back in the seventies and what he posits is that what we typically call intelligence actually has at least nine different components. So he talks about a verbal linguistic intelligence. He talks about a mathematical logical intelligence. He talks about a musical rhythmic intelligence, a visual spatial intelligence. HE ALSO TALKS ABOUT BOTH INTERPERSONAL INTELLIGENCE AS WELL AS INTRAPERSONAL INTELLIGENCE. And so what he says is that all of us have all nine of these different aspects of intelligence, but depending on how our particular brains are wired, one or two or three will be stronger for us than all the others. And so other people have taken his work further. And the idea is that most schools are set up by people who are strong in one or both mathematical logical and verbal linguistic. And so that’s how school is set up. That’s how the teaching goes. So somebody who’s bodily kinesthetic, who needs to move to think so that same lesson, but you incorporated some movement in that they would be able to do just as well. And so ideally what should happen in classrooms is that once a week you go through all of these different learning modalities. I, for example, I am an auditory learner. It makes sense because my dad is a musician. So there’s probably some genetic in my family wiring around sound. So what happens is if I have to read something challenging, if I read it out loud to myself, I understand it and retain more. It’s more likely for me to store it in long term memory in a way that’s retrievable than if I just read the words on the page without hearing them. So that’s just an example of learning style. So what I do is I, in the classes that I teach this semester, I am teaching two classes. Each year I do it one of two ways. Some years I start with just give me a paragraph about the smartest person you know and why. And so then everybody writes about, Oh, my mom, oh my cousin, he graduated with whoever they wanna write about. And so when they say why we pull that out and I put that on the board so that we start to think about all these things that smartness is, that it is to be smart. Then we read this, Isaac Asimov piece called “What is Intelligence, Anyway?” It’s a personal essay, just one page. He describes the fact that he has an IQ of 160 and he thinks that he’s smart, but he wonders doesn’t it mean that I’m just very good at taking tests created by people who are similar to me? And then he talks about his mechanic and he talks about these other experiences. And if somebody who had those particular strengths created a test, he would not be able to do it well. And so that leads us to understanding that people need different things to learn. And so then they take self assessment to learn what kind of learner they are. AND THEN WE START TO THINK ABOUT, SO WHAT TOOLS DO WE NEED TO EMPLOY IN ORDER TO HELP YOU LEARN BEST? So we can create that as a community and then we go on to whatever it is. You know, if it’s a 12th grade English class and we’re studying Shakespeare, you know, whatever it is. Or ninth grade where we’re looking at the individual. So we’re reading a lot of young adult fiction. We have started with knowing who you are because my goal is to always give people agency and to understand that you have intrinsic value that no one can take away from you. Doesn’t matter what the circumstance is, it doesn’t matter if you’re always in these situations where it seems like you’re not doing as well as other people. There may be some reasons for that. Like your teacher is a verbal linguistic learner. That’s how she processes and that’s how she teaches. So yeah. And the kids, I call them my grand babies. I tell them that they’re my grand babies. Alicia: How long have you been teaching? Over 32 years. Alicia: Wow. Always in Harlem. No. When I first became an assistant principal, I was also down in Chelsea at one point, but mainly it’s been on the Upper West Side or Harlem. Alicia: So always in New York City. Yeah. Alicia: Cool. Wow. Oh, Kierra, you just have such an open, light heart. You know, think about a teacher, assistant principal in the city. You think about the stress that must involve at different times I mean, like, you’ve seem like you’ve figured out how to deal. Well, it is really stressful, but I mean, I really do love what I do. And you know, I’m the oldest of four girls. I have three sisters. Two of us went into education. I think that, you know, school was definitely a place of humiliation, but it also was a kind of sanctuary. It was like a mixed bag. And I really do believe that education is a moral imperative. AND I THINK A LOT OF WHAT WE DO IN EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY IS REALLY IMMORAL. REALLY IMMORAL. But it’s because we have such a incredibly hierarchical way of thinking, which is to be understood because we are primates, and primates are hierarchical, but we also have a higher self that we don’t seem to tap into and listen to very much because, you know, you look at a country like Finland. And Finland is at the top of the food chain, and Finland had a lot of the same problems that we did, and they figured out how to solve them. Like us, school is funded by property taxes. So they had you know, a lot of disparity. And so what they did was, it’s still funded by property taxes, but it goes into one kitty and every school gets the same amount. It’s divided equally. That’s something that we could do here. Another thing is that they don’t kill and drill. They don’t give homework until like secondary school. That a lot of how children learn is through play and through exploration. Yeah. There’s no reason why someone goes so excited. I have my lunchbox. Is today the first day of school? And then by third grade they hate school. Like why? Because it’s a place of humiliation. Because it’s a place of not getting it right. It’s a place of memorizing things that don’t make sense, and you don’t even really know what they mean. But someone said, “Memorize it.” It’s like, what the hell man? What the hell? Humans love to learn. They love to learn. This is what we do. And we could do it so much bigger and better. BUT NO, WE ARE NOT DOING THAT BECAUSE WE WANNA MAKE SURE WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT WILL WORK THESE SHITTY ASS JOBS. So like, what? Why? So you could have 10 million purses? You are only one human being. What are you gonna do? Change your purse every five minutes? Like, come on. Alicia: I love that. Cause that’s a sign of success, Kierra, to have 10 million purses that you don’t use, right? Like, that brings me joy. THAT’S CALLED HOARDING. AND THAT’S ALSO AN ADDICTION. YOU KNOW WHAT? GREED IS AN ADDICTION. It’s an addiction. That’s an addiction. But we’re keeping it together. I don’t mean to be pessimistic because we are going to get it together. Human beings are magical beings. We are going to get it together. I don’t know that I’ll see it in my lifetime though, but we are gonna get it together. Alicia: You see glimpses of it when you’re doing the things that your heart wants you to do, right? Yes, I do see glimpses of it. I do. I really do. Yeah. Alicia: I heard you say that we can accept our whole selves. That we love to show people our shiny bits, you know, on Instagram and everything. Posting what we’re most proud of, what we think makes us look the best. But we all have places where we are deceptive and selfish and cruel, and it’s that shadow self we’re always fighting against. and therefore we are un unified as individual beings. We’re ununified. And you said you can’t be a compassionate person if there have not been times that you were cruel. WHAT ARE SOME STEPS THAT WE CAN TAKE TO ACCEPT OUR SHADOW SELVES AS WELL AS OUR SHINY BITS? Oh, so there’s a lot of ways of doing it. One way that I did it was.. So one of my defaults used to be until very recently, even after doing a lot of work, was resentment. And it wasn’t only for myself, if it looked like something unfair was going on. LIKE I WOULD JUST GO IMMEDIATELY TO RESENTMENT. I think sometimes people in big families, at least one person can have this characteristic. You know, you’re always looking like, oh, look like you got a little more juice. Well, how come you got all the juice? It was like, you know, families can be like that. AND SO I JUST WANTED TO EXPLORE IT THROUGH MOVEMENT. I JUST DID MINI DANCES. I’m really gonna dance resentment, that burning resentment, you know, no one even knows that you’re resentful except you think they don’t know because you’re like smiling. No, it’s okay. Like what’s that burning resentment? That resentment where it’s just like, it comes to you in flashes. Like most of the time you’re okay, but then something happens that you’re just right back in it. Like, really how does that move, you know? Is it like quick little movements? Is it like slow and sinewy and panther? HOW DOES THAT MOVE IN ME? WHERE DOES IT LIVE IN ME? What body part wants to take on expressing that? So many, many, many dances of resentment. And then I didn’t have that resentment anymore. It got fully and completely expressed. It didn’t happen with just one or two dances. It was like, this was a nightly practice. I’M GONNA DANCE FOR 20 MINUTES. And sometimes you don’t stay there. You know, you dance resentment and then something else wants to come through. But I had a specific practice of, I wanna give my resentment a voice. I wanna give it a voice, you know. And then it just doesn’t happen anymore. Like, that’s not my default setting anymore. So that’s one way of doing it. So if any of your listeners wants to pick up Existential Kink by Carolyn Elliot [https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+existential+kink&hvadid=557544034213&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9005779&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=431266342948075653&hvtargid=kwd-1005578318768&hydadcr=7473_13185756&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_1a51ec0tyr_e], she describes some exercises that you can do. And she works with the idea of turn on, like really allowing the sensations in the body and really noticing like, what sensation are you feeling, where are you turned on by this darker aspect of yourself, you know? And that part of us is always useful. EVERY PART OF US IS ALWAYS IN SERVICE OF OURSELVES. Even when I was describing my inner serial killer that is torturing me, she’s saying, ” Listen. This world doesn’t like you. You need to be careful. I’m gonna beat you up so nobody else has to because I’m going to whip you into shape. Even though you never listened to me, I’m gonna whip you into shape so that you’re never vulnerable and you’re never caught out there.” I talk about the resentment dance. But once I did all of this, I, I saw that everything about me is helping me. I mean, sometimes they’ve outlived their usefulness, you know, it’s not really that helpful anymore. You know, like, so thank you. I love you, but I got this from now on. Alicia: Giving it a voice. Yeah. Giving the shadow parts a voice. Mm-hmm. And a fun way, if you have the space, dance is always because there’s a reason why babies dance. THERE’S A REASON WHY BABIES DANCE. Babies hear music and they could be in your arms, and they just started moving their bodies. Like I don’t know all the science behind it. But it’s real. There’s a reason even if you feel like you have two left feet, please dance. If you don’t feel like you can dance in front of other people, you know that there’s always the bathroom. You know, put your airphones on and go in the bathroom and give yourself, you know, it’s your birthright. YOU REALLY ARE A DANCER. I know you don’t believe me. There’s levels to this. Of course, there are dancers who are artists. I’m not taking that away, but every human being. We are dancers. That is our birthright as humans. WE ALL COME FROM MANY GENERATIONS OF DANCERS. Some historian may know more than me, but from what I know, the ancient Greeks were the first to get weary of dancing, and they actually wrote it down. So that’s how we know. What they didn’t like about dancing is when they would have those long, like 10 day feasts and people would be dancing and dancing and dancing. They found it difficult to reestablish the hierarchies once the feast was over. People’s hearts would be open from that deep dancing and that deep connection that would be fostered by dancing together. So they said, Something’s gotta go , you know, something’s gotta go. So they began to cut down on how long feasts could last. But they had some serious concerns about dancing. And in many religions, because I think you know, just from what’s written, there’s often this fear of sensuality. Particularly sensuality in women around dancing. SENSUALITY IS PART OF LIFE. Sensuality is related to sexuality, but it’s not identical. You know, they’re not the same thing. Sensuality. The love through the senses. That’s part of life. That’s part of being in a body, you know? And enjoying smells and sensation and sounds and textures and taste. That’s part of being in the body. But people started to have fears around that. And, dancing could definitely invoke the imagination. Which that’s why you have an imagination. Enjoy it. But you know… OUR ANCESTORS DANCED Alicia: This is perfect cuz my next question is on your website, shakingspiritwaves.com [http://shakingspiritwaves.com] you wrote, “Our ancestors danced. They danced for healing transformation to create community, to unify the will in preparation for a hunt or to wage war. They danced for ritual, for celebration, for artistic expression. Our ancestors danced in every single part of the world. We are each from a long line of ancestors who danced. It is quite recent in human history that dancing is no longer an integral part of our lives.” And you spoke a little bit about, with the Greeks, it interrupted their hierarchy. So any other ideas about what happened and why did so many of us stop dancing? WHY DID SO MANY OF US STOP DANCING? Well again, I think the other part of it is sensuality. Right? The sensuality too. Okay. So the woo woo part of my story is that and it wasn’t even about like career path. SO I HAD AN AKASHIC READING. It was actually about a relationship. And so the reading was to end the relationship because this was related to suffering from the lifetimes, more than one that I had as a temple dancer. So according to this reading, I have had lifetimes more than one as a temple dancer. AND WHAT SHE SAID TO ME WAS, WHEN YOU WERE A TEMPLE DANCER, YOU KNOW, THE MEN WOULD COME FOR HEALING AND THEN THEY WOULD LEAVE. They would never belong to you. So you cannot stay in this relationship. It’s just no. You need to be in a more committed relationship. This is not gonna work. So it was great to get the news about what to do regarding relationship, but was very interesting to me to find out that possibly I’ve had lifetimes where dance was important to me. Cuz that would explain why I was like such a fanatic and went around annoying people as a little girl. Alicia: Sensuality, the humanness of it. I was at a Tony Robbins event and there was a man next to me who was probably 10 years older than me. He goes, I just started dancing. I was like, What? He’s like, No, no. I went to a Tony Robbins event like two months ago and I just started dancing. I never had danced in my entire life. And I was like, this is so real for so many people. THEY DON’T FEEL LIKE THEY CAN DANCE. And when you say like you come from a long line of ancestors who danced, like. What are you telling yourself about dance that’s keeping you from being in it? From having it, from experiencing it? You know, what are we telling ourselves? WE HAVE TO BE DOING IT RIGHT. We have to be doing it a certain way. Like what you were saying before is you don’t want people looking at you, you know? And then we catch ourselves too, being the one that’s looking at the dancer going, What is she doing? You know? We’re like, well, I mean like, I don’t know if you ever used to watch Seinfeld back in the day, but on the show Seinfeld, there’s a character Elaine. And like her dancing was legendary. How many people were like laughing at that awkward dance that she was doing? And you know, part of it was that, you know, of course they exaggerated it and looking like she was hurt. But what’s wrong with that? What is wrong? If that’s how the beat is hitting me. The beat is hitting my shoulders. YOU KNOW THAT’S HOW THE BEAT IS HITTING ME. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? Right. And that’s why it was so funny too. It’s because people were making fun of something that doesn’t need to be made fun of. Right? I mean, it’s that fear of so many people, like, am I gonna look like her? You know? Yeah. And listen, I have no shame in my game. Like, I don’t care. I love dancing so much. I don’t care. Right. I’ll take it all from the best one to the worst one to in the middle. I don’t care. I don’t care. Alicia: I was in a workshop once too, and they said, Dance like someone from another planet, like doing moves that your body’s never done. And I was like, Wow, I’ve never even given myself the opportunity to do that. You know? And I’ve just been so limited in my thinking of what a dance move should look like, how I dance, you know? And once you take a step back and not worry about what you look like it’s gets so much bigger. YES, I DO WANNA BE CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DANCE AS AN ART FORM IS INCREDIBLE AND JUST WATCHING IT CAN BE HEALING AND TRANSFORMING FOR PEOPLE TO SEE THE GRACE AND THE SKILL ON DISPLAY. So I’m not denigrating that or equating the two. I’m saying that they are separate, that there are some of us that will develop our dance so that it is in art form. But I am also saying that you know, you could think about it like cooking, right? There are some people that are going to be these gourmet chefs that are gonna be so inventive with the flavors and textures that they put together. But all of us have to cook in order to eat. And all of us in our own way will bring love and artistry to our cooking. And so that’s what I mean about your dance. I do believe that there is medicine for us and often for other people, but medicine for us in our dance. THERE’S MEDICINE IN YOUR DANCE. Alicia: Some people tell themselves they can’t cook either. Yeah, that’s true. You know, that’s true that, but I know exactly what you’re talking about. But also sometimes people, that’s how they like it, you know, sometimes people like a little charcoal on their food or I happen to like very dry things. Most people like Turkey, that’s all juicy. And I’m like, eh, no. My grandmother technically was not a good cook, and she would make a very dry Turkey. And that’s what I grew up on and that’s what I like. I also think it’s because I’m Kapha however it’s pronounced. So I have a lot of moisture in me, so I like dry stuff. Alicia: Ooh. I Is that the Kama Sutra kind of stuff? The different body types? Is that what that Yes. Pitta is very lean. And that’s a drier body type. And so they need more moisture. And then there’s Vata. And then the one with a K is the largest body type. Nobody is purely one or the other. Alicia: Yeah, I never thought about it all that way. Yeah. Uh, I know that Kaeshi’s in Europe now I’m gonna do their peace event. Yes, I’m going for that. Alicia: Oh my God, are you really? So this is perfect. SO TELL US WHAT IT HAS BEEN LIKE TO BE PART OF THE PUBLIC URBAN RITUAL EXPERIMENT. It is definitely in the top 10 things that I’m most grateful for in my life. One of the things about PURE that is so wonderful is that you have all level of dancers. So it’s not a company where everyone is a professional or even a high level amateur. There are those of us who just love belly dance, who love the movement. And we approximate the movement in however way we can. And like there’s room for us. And how many companies like that? You know, so there’s a lot of ideas that we like because they’re egalitarian, but how many people actually put it into practice? Right? So it’s one thing to have this idea on paper, but she puts it in practice. And I think she does that because she has multiple companies. So she can have the Belly Queen Company where you really need to be an elite dancer in terms of your understanding of both artistry and technique. But then she can have this company where there’s room for people who are advanced beginners. Alicia: Nice. Yeah. Kaeshi’s a magic being. What she creates. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/kaeshi-chai/ Belly Dance Podcast kaeshi chai [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Belly-Dance-Podcast-kaeshi-chai-768x768.png] Kaeshi Chai on Bellydance Superstars and Bellyqueen - 042 New York City Belly Dancer Kaeshi talks about touring the world as a dancer, screaming when dancing, and Beauty Reimagined. And her doumbek playing husband Brad Mack gives us tips on how to become a better performer.  Where she gets her, I’m like, Oh my God. I ASKED HER WHAT MOTIVATES HER. SHE SAID, “I AM IN SERVICE TO OUR MOTHER.” That I’m in service to our mother. I love that. I love that. Alicia: Yeah. So cool. I’m so glad you’re gonna be in Rome. That’s gonna be beautiful. AND YOU ALSO FACILITATE FEMME! That’s F E M M E with an exclamation point, which is a movement practice to live drumming. That’s my favorite way to move, is to live music. And it sounds amazing. What’s it like? So Bernadette Pleasant is the founder of Femme! [https://www.theemotionalinstitute.com/about-bernadette]. She is someone who is a Nia teacher. She also is a professional pole dancer and a teacher of pole dance. And so when she created her body of work, she combined elements of both and then put her own special magic into it. So it is very much a transformational form of dance. AND SO THERE’S A GROUP OF EXERCISES THAT YOU GO THROUGH AND THOSE EXERCISES ARE DESIGNED TO HELP YOU FULLY EMBODY YOURSELF. So there are poses and movements that you create based on prompts that she gives you. For example let’s say confidence. How does confidence move? What does confidence look like when it’s stationary? So she gives you prompts for you to create and find that in yourself. AND AS I SAID, IT IS DONE TO LIVE AFRICAN DRUMS. So it’s really just that profound heartbeat music. I love it. I was really grateful to be accepted into the training because I wanted to expand my understanding of somatic healing and somatic movement. MY BODY OF WORK IS CALLED HUM WHICH IS AN ACRONYM FOR HEALING USING MOVEMENT. And so it has everything that I’ve been exposed to, but there are some things that I felt were missing. One was sound. And then the more that I learned about sound, for example, the “Ah” sound does the same thing for your internal body that shaking does for the exterior. The “ah”. When you go, “ah”, it resonates throughout your body. And it sort of resets your nervous system. SO I WANTED TO INCLUDE SOUND IN WHAT I OFFER PEOPLE. AND THEN THE OTHER THING IS I REALLY WANT TO GIVE SPACE AND ROOM FOR SENSUALITY. LIKE REALLY NOT SECRET HIDDEN. Because I find that one reason why I think people say that they can’t dance is allowing the hips full expression is not really acceptable in many, many, many, many cultures. You know, I’m speaking as somebody who’s 61. So now we have twerking, you know, all these things. When I was growing up, it was very hard because if you didn’t move your hips at all, people would say that you can’t dance. But if you got a little carried away, the next thing you know, people are saying stuff about you. Oh, I’ll better watch her. She’s gonna be fast. It’s like, I was just, what? Like as I said, I’m the oldest of four girls. So I go to school and I learn this ring dance. You know the one “shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it. If you can shake it like a milkshake and do the best you can, rumble to the bottom from the top.” So I come home from my little Head Start program and I had to put my sisters in a circle so I can teach them to dance. The next thing you know, I’m picking myself up off the floor. And I said, “Daddy, what?” And he said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “Oh, I’m just showing them a dance I learned at school.” “I didn’t send you to school to shake your ass.” SO YEAH, THERE’S GOTTA BE ROOM FOR SENSUALITY. And so that’s what I’m bringing forth in Hum. Healing, Using Movement. Sound, somatic movement, but a special emphasis on sensuality. And I don’t mean like sensuality, like performative, which is another place that we go to, Oh, look at me, aren’t I sexy? No. For yourself, for yourself. You know, starting from the inside. Just curling and arching and you can even close your eyes with that sensation. YOUR OWN BODY AS THIS AMAZING LANDSCAPE, CAPABLE OF ENDLESS MOVEMENT. Yeah, so I’m still developing. I hope to have my first offering in the spring. So many ideas are percolating and I wanna just see what really lands, cuz you know, I can’t have, like first we’re doing this that, then we’re doing this. Like I want it to be a really uplifting experience for people and especially for women. BECAUSE I THINK SO MUCH OF OUR SENSUALITY IS PERFORMATIVE IS FOR SOMEONE ELSE AND IT’S A WAY OF CREATING HIERARCHY AMONG EACH OTHER. WHO IS THE MOST DESIRABLE? AND I REALLY DON’T WANT IT TO BE THAT. I want it to be something for you. Something for each person. This is for you. For you to really enjoy yourself. Just because these images are really pervasive and we’re very familiar with them. Babies just love themselves. They just see their toes. They’re like, I have to eat these damn toes. These toes are too cute. They can’t be out here like that. I gotta devour them. They just love themselves. Oh my God. Did anyone see these dimples? Oh my thighs. They’re so cute. Yummy, yummy, yummy. I want us to feel like that. It is not performative. It’s for you. And then you can decide what you wanna do with it. But first it’s this juicy gift to yourself. Alicia: Hmm. My friend Tessa Meyers, who lives right up here in this area. I feel like she’s really good at that. Just giving herself her own juicy gifts. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/tessa/ Belly Dance Podcast tessa true heart [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belly-Dance-Podcast-tessa-true-heart-768x768.png] BellyEsque Musings from the Voluptuous Tessa True Heart - 034 Want to feel beautiful and juicy in your body? Listen to this. Let's reveal what belly dancers can learn from burlesque culture and find ways to take exquisite of ourselves. And then she puts it on Instagram and you’re like, Wow, could I do that? Like, could I feel that way? You know what I mean? So, yeah. But a lot of it is us creating a hierarchy of who’s the most desirable. It’s what you’re saying, right? It’s cuz you wanna be more desirable than somebody else. For some reason that makes us important? I don’t know what it does for us. There’s some payoff there, right? Beautiful. Okay, last question. When we were taking that workshop together in the creek and our friend Kazuma, a little awkwardly asked you to speak because you are our elder he speaks English really well, but I think it was a little hard for him to communicate what he wanted to communicate right there cuz it is his second language. Or third, I’m not sure your response, smooth it all out when you said something like, “Thank you. I do consider myself an elder.” HOW DO WE HONOR AND RESPECT OUR ELDERS, ESPECIALLY IN OUR BELLY DANCE COMMUNITY? Well, I think oh gosh, I could almost cry when I think about this because I do see some lovely things happening in the belly dance community where people who are moving differently because they are older, like they’re still rap attention. People aren’t like, Okay, when is she getting off? Like, Yeah, still seeing the gift and the beauty in moving in all the stages that people go through. Really seeing that, like reframing it for ourselves so that we have an expanded sense of beauty, I think is really important. BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE, IF THEY’RE FORTUNATE, ARE GOING TO GET OLD. If you’re fortunate, that is what’s going to happen. You’re not gonna look like you were 20 and you are just not, you know how they say, 60 is a new 40 or whatever . It’s like, Yeah. Until I stand next to somebody who is 40. Once I stand next to someone 40, I don’t look like I’m 40. Okay. You know, cause they don’t have creaky knees. It’s like, Yeah, but all of us are going to experience this, we have not always thought this way. This is some what recent in history that we have all these prescriptions. Maybe it’s because early humans when someone did live that long, it was like, Wow, what’s your secret? How can I be like you? You’re a unicorn, Right? Yeah. but I just love the fact that we unlike all the other primates, we are not limited by our biology. We have tremendous choice. We are hardwired for all these things. We’re hardwired to be fearful. That’s why we survived. We heard a twig, we started running. We didn’t look to see what was going on. But we don’t have to continue to be fear-based. We’ve conquered so much. We don’t even have any predators anymore. Except for each other of course. Don’t have to be so fear based anymore. Like we actually can choose to retrain. Because our brains have plasticity. So we can actually rewire our own brain in real time. Like the children now, they can do things that people in my generation had a hard time doing because they’re constantly doing more than one thing at one time. They are better at multitasking because they are on the computer and they’re doing this and they’re doing that. And the brain has rewired itself to be able to do those things. Now, of course, they have a harder time giving focused attention than, you know, people my age who we just had to pay attention cause you’ll get knocked out. You know? Cause there was no such thing as child abuse. And let’s face it, children of all social classes, all demographics, you go to the supermarket, someone’s getting a smack. That’s just how it was back then. Mm-hmm. So you were saying expand your concept of beauty. That was one of those things right. Yes. That’s something we can all do. EXPAND YOUR CONCEPT OF BEAUTY. Cultivate patience so that if you’re speaking to someone who is talking slower or maybe is not as focused as maybe they were 20 years ago when they were younger, like having that patience. Also, I think it’s important. I love what they’re doing in some parts of Europe, where I think it’s in Holland, where they are having college students live with seniors and the college student gets a discount on their rent. And they were right, that friendships did develop as because of that. The other thing that they’re doing is they’re building daycare centers in senior citizens homes. So that’s something that we can start to think about. SO I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US FROM CHILDHOOD TO

Salit of NYC on the sisterhood of belly dancers, the politics that divide our community of Arabic music lovers, and how focusing on our belly dance technique rather than our appearance brings us more happiness. Salit (Sal-eet) [https://www.salitdance.com/] started belly dancing in Israel when she was 21, and she did not expect it to become her profession and the foundation for her own bellydance school! I met Salit at Art of the Belly when I took a super fun cane dancing class from her. I love her sass when she dances, as well as her commitment to authenticity and the sisterhood she has created with other dancers.  https://youtu.be/3Dhhn_SKAVE   Salit on Youtube [https://www.youtube.com/c/BellydancebySalit] Alicia: Let’s start with sisterhood. Please tell us about Sheba.  Sheba stands for the Sisterhood of Eclectic Belly Dance Arts. [https://www.shebadance.com/] Sheba is all about community as well as technique, history, culture, musicality, improvisation, and giving confidence to our sisters. We have classes together and take class trips. We perform for each other at our own events and perform at other events. It’s all about the fun. Sheba on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/SHEBAdance/] Sheba on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/sheba_belly_dance/] Sheba on Youtube [https://www.youtube.com/c/SHEBADancePrograms] Alicia: You describe belly dance as the epitome of femininity with movements that emphasize every curve in the body in a soft, yet powerful way. You have also said that you were more of a tom boy when you were younger. Identity is powerful! It can be hard for us to do something that we believe goes against our identity. Do you remember what attracted you to belly dance?  I remember Arabic film Friday in Israel. > What stood out to me the most was the power of a dancer to just stand still and do nothing, and be so amazing. To express so much with so little movement. To stand still but be so energetic. I have never seen that freedom in another art form. Alicia: Are there any Israeli dancers that are famous in Egypt or through history that have been famous in Egypt? Not Israeli, there are Jewish dancers, but Egyptian Jewish. It’s problematic as you can imagine to be accepted as an Israeli and Arab countries. So, no. Alicia: On your website Shebadance.com in your bio, you wrote that when you were younger you took ballet, and wrote that you hated putting your hair up in a bun and wrapping it in a hair net. I feel the same way! I want my hair to do its own dance too. You also wrote that you felt like your movements were too heavy for ballet. But heavy sounds perfect for stomping a dabke! You love to lead dabke, and you do it beautifully and with passion. It was so much fun to be pulled into your dabke to a live band at Art of the Belly and snake through the room in a line of dancers, holding hands. What are some ways we can learn how to do dabke with energy similar to how they do it at gatherings in the Middle East?  So definitely it’s great for that for dabke, actually. Yes, there’s a lot of stomping, but there’s a lot of very quick footwork and jumping, which you actually need to be very light on your feet for. So I was very bad at footwork before. So I had to work on that a lot and condition my body. It was hard, but definitely worth it because now I really feel like I’m flying. [https://www.salitdance.com/videos?wix-vod-video-id=daf01229b5c84b9d91939719b9837210&wix-vod-comp-id=comp-j43h1zcz] So I have that heaviness, but when I step back I need some of the lightness. WHERE IS DABKE ORIGINALLY FROM? Dabke is originally from the military showing their pride in their victories. Mostly for men. So the main characteristic of dabke is pride. Hold the upper body really tall and open and strong, and keep that energy up very strong and held and proud. That’s the key. Alicia: So it’s really big in Eastern Europe, right? In the Balkans they do line dance. Is there crossover? Did it come from one spot? Did all line dances come from the military?  There are a lot of line dances in many different cultures. It is really interesting that dabke and Irish dancing are very similar, I’m not sure how that came about. It could be a coincidence, could be not. Specifically Levantine style line dance. So Egyptians don’t do this kind of line dance. They have saidi, which they’re proud of but it’s a different feel. The Levant is Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, technically Israel is not included in that. But that area. WHAT DO YOU USUALLY HOLD WHEN YOU DO A DABKE? You hold the whole hand of the person next to you. When you lead a dabke you hold a masbha. And it’s originally prayer beads. That’s what people hold. This one that I’m holding up I made this with the troupe leader that I’m in. It’s made of his old t-shirts , which he assured me were clean before we did this. So, I guess this is common to improvise. This masbha has red, green and white colors, which are Lebanon colors. Alicia: Oh, it actually has a handle on it. And then it has a little weight on the end so that it spins well, is that what’s going on? Yes, it’s just a lot of tape. It’s very improvised. Alicia: Is that something people would put in their purse before they go to a party? Or do people carry those to a place where they’re going to line dance?  I’m not sure, but I think Muslims generally just have prayer beads on them. That’s what they use. They use prayer beads for dabke. It’s part the culture. Part of the patriotism. Religion and the land usually go hand in hand. DANCEABLE SONG: ALI GARA BY SAYED BALAHA https://open.spotify.com/track/6Qxe17yNxxG1KkYbdp9xf8?si=8af383bb740141be This is an instrumental version of “What Happened to Me” It’s different. It’s very classical and pleasant to dance to. Alicia: Was there a key moment when you realized you want to focus on teaching Egyptian style belly dance?  https://youtu.be/GhvCRtbLlog I don’t really see myself teaching a purely Egyptian Style. My base is very Egyptian, but I always have to add my own from what I have learned, observed and feel. Sometimes I’ll add a fan veil, or flamenco, or even elements of Halloween. WHERE DOES THE TERM ORIENTAL DANCE COME FROM WITH BELLY DANCE? Alicia: You have stopped using the term “Oriental” when you talk about belly dance. Can you tell us more about that? Oriental has always bothered me, especially in America when it is used to describe Asian people. Why do some say “Oriental” instead of “belly dance”? But “belly dance” can be associated with prostitution. So we find other terms that sound more elegant, more sophisticated. So I understand that, but for my research, “Oriental” is a colonizing, derogatory, racist term that was created to separate us from them. So “Us” being the sophisticated superior civilized West, which is primarily Britain and France, and “Them” as often referred to the inferior, primitive, barbaric, uneducated East. Let me read you a quick quote from Edward Said’s book “Orientalism” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)], a very important book. “The Orient was almost a European invention, and had been since antiquity a place of romance, exotic beings, haunting memories and landscapes, remarkable experiences.” So to me, referring to this dance as Oriental is fetishizing and exotifying and dehumanizing. In a way it’s like people over in the orient are not real people. It’s this fantasy land with fantasy people. And if they’re not real people, we don’t have to treat them with the same respect. And I am real. I am not a fairy, I’m not a mermaid. I’m not a fantasy. It’s great to be creative and to take on different characters and play around with. But at the end of the day, it has to be a character. It can’t be the person. We’re still human beings. And I put a lot of emphasis on presenting how real I am personally. So it’s very important for me to present another perspective, something for people to think about. I’m not telling anyone what to do. Or to completely change their minds. I want to just have them go and continue researching. and just question, why do we use this term? Why do we think that this colonizing term is better than that colonizing term? Maybe we should use another term. At least the term “belly dance” is descriptive to me. And it is not just about a specific place. What we present in this dance now is very far from the origin. There’s a new dance style that deserves it’s own name. Even “Raqs Sharqi”, meaning dance East, is somewhat related to colonizing. Even just Raqs is in Arabic, and this dance is not only done by Arabic speakers. When the Egyptians and the teachers use the word “Oriental,” I think they are using it to elevate the art. But if people of “the orient” see themselves as inferior to European culture and because of this add ballet steps to belly dance. Add more European elements to the costuming, then… WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ARAB AUDIENCES FIND OUT YOU ARE ISRAELI? So I started belly dance when I was 21 and then maybe two years later, I moved here (to New York City). So I didn’t really work as a dancer in Israel. I was still kind of a beginner so when I started working in New York, and I didn’t think it would be a problem to tell people I’m Israeli. I was never ashamed of it. I’m not ashamed of it. It’s just where I happened to be born. And that’s how I was raised. And it’s a part of who I am. And even though I knew there was some issue with a conflict, maybe Arabs will not accept it. I still wasn’t afraid to say I was Israeli. And then little by little people started telling me “You can’t say that, or people will not work with you.” And then I noticed, for example, I danced to this Egyptian restaurant and as I mentioned, I love Egyptian style. So I was like, yes, I can really be myself, hardcore Egyptian music and dance, and they’re gonna love it. And they appreciated the music choice, and they appreciated my dance. And they got up and danced with me and everybody was happy. This guy was dancing with me and then he started talking to me in Arabic afterwards, which was very flattering. He thought I was Egyptian, but then he said, “Where are you from?” And I said, “From Israel.” And then I saw his face just drop. It was like, oh, thank you. And he walked away. A SECOND AGO YOU WERE SO HAPPY, BUT THEN IF I’M IN ISRAELI, YOU’RE NOT HAPPY ANYMORE. BUT YOU ENJOYED MY DANCE, SO WHAT DOES IT MATTER? And that’s the experience I get. IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO SAY I’M ISRAELI. OTHERWISE I CAN DESTROY MY OWN BUSINESS. SOMEBODY ELSE’S BUSINESS, IT COULD CAUSE A LOT OF PROBLEMS. And it doesn’t make sense to me. It makes me very sad. When I’m dancing in all kinds of Arabic weddings, but especially the Palestinians. They’re so happy. I bring them joy. This is why I’m there and they love it. But if they knew, they would not be happy anymore. Palestinians especially. IT MAKES ME SAD THAT WE’RE FORCED TO HATE EACH OTHER. EVEN WHEN WE’RE NOT THERE. WE’RE ALL HERE. WE ALL CAME TO THE US FOR A BETTER LIFE TO GET AWAY FROM ALL OF THAT OVER THERE, BUT STILL WE MUST HOLD ONTO THE HATE. And I understand it, but I don’t see why it has to continue. So that’s my experience. Not all Arabs, and not all Palestinians, but in general, they don’t think we should be working together on any level. They can’t just look at the dance and the music and that moment of celebration. There’s always the history and the politics in everything. And it’s such a shame. Because if we put all that aside, we can all just celebrate together and just enjoy music and dance and art, and then it doesn’t matter where we’re from. HOW TO DO A DOUBLE ARABESQUE https://youtu.be/a7EYAs5cLL4?t=253 It has different names. Some call it a double arabesque or a brush. It looks like a circle on one hip. However, there’s a twist in it. And essentially it is a figure eight forward. So if you know how to do a horizontal figure eight forward, you twist one hip forward, and then you slide the way back and then you twist the other one forward and slide the hip back. And then you round it and you have a figure eight. So, this is essentially the move that we’re doing. All that’s changing is now I’m with one foot forward with a heel up and I do the same move. I twist the hits forward, slide it back. And then I snake in an out. Your toe is sweeping the floor. If I let go of the foot and just relax it, then I’m brushing. It’s a great move and it has to be done from the correct place, because if people think of a brush, then they might do that from the foot. And it’s not from the foot. It’s all in the waist, in the obliques, just like a twist, and a figure eight. And then the whole leg and the foot needs to relax. You need to feel your leg just kind of being pulled down. And relaxing and all the work is in the hip and the waist, and then you get that beautiful motion and it’s flowing and it’s fluid. And also it’s not a circle. So people need to understand first do the figure eight forward with both feet flat and then pick up one heel.

Dr. Valerie Poppel, aka Nefertiti of Delaware, is a Clinical Sexologist and belly dancer who lived in Cairo. Find out what Nef warned about Soul Ties when she was featured in Cosmo yet again and how shimmying can improve our sexual health. Imagine a gorgeous brown-skinned dancer flecked in gold taking the stage with yellow isis wings unfurled. When she opens her arms and looks up, it’s like the sun is pouring into her soul. On her face, ecstasy. She dances and shines. At one point, she looks into the back of the audience and beckons. A fully-costumed dancer emerges and joins her on stage. And then another, and another. Each uniquely beautiful and proudly honoring the one who invited them there, Nefertiti [https://www.facebook.com/Nefertitibellydancer].  That was my experience at the Art of the Belly Dance Festival [http://www.artofthebelly.net/] on the ocean in Maryland when I saw our guest Nefertiti perform. This is going to be an incredible interview. Not only are we talking to an amazing passionate dancer who lived in Cairo for years and has danced all over the world, Nefertiti is also a clinical sexoligist who has been featured in Cosmo not one, but 2 times. And she hosts a radio show about sexual health and relationships called Brown Sugar Confessions [http://facebook.com/brownsugarconfessions/]. So we are all in for a treat! Thank you so much for being here with us Nefertiti, aka Dr. Valerie Poppel [https://www.swanncenter.com/].  I was so excited to hear that you were recently featured in Cosmo [https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a39574999/soul-ties-definition/?fbclid=IwAR1jDSN1-h6Sh2RmAvJtCnrm9HuArkNYFC30J2mlC0Fx382JSOoz0Kzmz2o], and when I asked you about the article, you said it’s about tarab. Can you tell us more about that?  CREATING ECSTACY, TARAB AND SOUL TIES IN BELLY DANCE In a moment of ecstacy, as dancers we draw our audiences into us. So that’s what the article mentioned. Soul ties. When you’re performing be very mindful of soul tie connections with people. As a dancer, I’m always trying to get that energy connection with the audience. I have caught the eye of a young man in the audience, and he stalked me. Some people receive your gift of dance in a way that is not intended. When you are dancing and giving your energy, being mindful of looking at someone to the point that you are looking into their soul and creating that tie. How can you create ecstacy?  And what does that look like on stage? How do we take away the mystery of tarab and how we can see ourselves? Hooray for the first Black Belly Dance Bundle [https://thebellydancebundle.com/]! I am so excited to start scheduling my pre-recorded classes with Chudney, Lady Liquid, Ebony Qualls, Danielle Hutton and more fabulous dancers who are part of that. And you are going to teach about the pelvic floor in a lecture called “To tuck or not to tuck”. Can you give us a little preview of that lecture?  SHOULD WE TUCK OR NOT TUCK OUR PELVIS? WHAT DO DANCERS NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OUR PELVIC FLOOR? https://youtu.be/B89Wwt7ajEU?t=130 It is important to understand what the pelvic floor supports, how it changes as we age, and posture. Is the tuck good for dancers? Where did it originate? Is it beneficial as we are dancing? What does a strong pelvic floor look like on a dance body? How do we strengthen the pelvic floor with belly dance? Sit down on the floor and do an Egyptian shimmy while doing Kegels. You can stand and shimmy and do kegels too. Having a strong pelvic floor is important to have longevity in the dance. Your interview on the Ask me Anything series with Sara Shrapnell [https://beyonddancebusinessacademy.teachable.com/courses/1212505/lectures/27063647] was amazing.  You talked a little about teaching belly dance to people with sexual concerns. One highlight is where you spoke about the kinds of orgasms and how to structure your shimmy to orgasm while you shimmy. You’ve gotta tell us more about that.  YOU CAN ORGASM WHILE YOU SHIMMY My husband loves when I dance for him. No need to do your hair or makeup. If you choose to dance for your partner and release energy, why not? You can use belly dance as therapy, and get in touch with your body and get grounded. Moving your pelvis has been known to help women have a higher drive for sex if they are suffering from low desire. We are often skittish about talking about the sensual part of belly dance. But it is quite beautiful. And you teach about Tantra, which I heard you say can teach you how to breathe through an orgasm. I never realized before that we generally stop breathing when we orgasm! You said that breathing through it can elongate and deepen orgasms, and can lead to mutiple orgasims. 15 orgasms in one session sometimes. Yes this is a belly dance podcast, but this shit is important! What should we know about this?  BREATHE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO YOUR PELVIC FLOOR Tantra became very big in what late eighties, when Sting spoke about six hours of orgasms. I was like, that’s a lot of orgasms Sting. And many people got on the tantra bandwagon wanting to learn, wanting to prolong release of orgasmic energy. I’m a tantra specialist. I teach tantra all over the world. And one of the benefits of tantra, and not to mention the. connecting of your partner, is the ability to breathe through your orgasmic energy release. Oftentimes we choose to hold our breath. If you think about your own release of energy, when you’re in that state of ecstacy, you might tend to hold your breath. That’s why they call it the little death, because you stop breathing. And the tantra principle is about breathing all the way through to your pelvic floor all the way out to elongate the orgasmic release. To have a deeper orgasm by breathing through it and not holding the breath. So there are a lot of benefits. Not only to your relationship, but also to the release of energy when you understand and practice tantra. How important the breath is in every part of our life and breath is important. When you dance, of course, and it’s important during sex. A beautiful way of connecting with your partner when you’re able to release the energies together and using the breath control. Using Tantra kiss to elongate it even further. So there’s so many modalities of understanding how energy and breath works when you’re releasing orgasmic energy and the world of tantra. So I advise anyone that’s listening to this podcast that may have questions, just reach out to me. I’m more than happy to answer them and to help you out. www.swanncenter.com [https://www.swanncenter.com/] If you are listening and you are like, sex coaching? I need that. I want to let you know that Nefertiti is also known as Dr. Valerie Poppel, and she does that! Coaching online and in person on low sexual confidence, no orgasms, porn addicition, early ejaculation, sexual shame, sexual identity and more incredibly important topics that help us become fully expressed humans!  It is a natural part of our self-expression and our love center. And I hope people, maybe not in my lifetime but one day, we’ll get comfortable with understanding that energy force and how valuable and beautiful it is when you’re connecting with someone from your heart center. Sex coaching is a small portion of what I do in the world of clinical sexology. At the Swann Center we also do sexual researcher, sexual science studies. I’m affiliated with many universities and affiliates all over the world where I work with understanding sexual medicines doing a research around the pharmaceutical industry. So I often tell people that the field of sexual health is growing and emerging. In Europe is quite large and the US it is still quite small. And we also run a clinical sexology certification program for those that choose to work in the field of sexual health and sexual wellness. And it’s about a one-year program that someone can take it. Even  MDs come take this course to continue their education. It is also for those that actually want to get certified as a clinical sexologist. So yeah. Check it out and reach out to me. In this country I hope we get away from the shame and guilt around pleasure. You can hear more on Brown Sugar Confessions on youtube.  [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC21CS9rnx1aCbQKnZ8zS2pQ] You are based in Delaware, and you have danced and instructed on all 7 continents. When we were scheduling this interview, you were on your way to Tahiti. The photos you and your partner posted were stunning. And the photos of how your body was painted on Bora Bora by world champion body painters. Whoa. I had to show Jill Parker those photos because I was overwhelmed with how goddamn cool you are. Many of us would not have the confidence to be painted topless even by skilled artists, especially after our 20s. You went for it. You already are a work of art, and you became another stunning work of art brushed with paint. Can you tell us about that experience?  WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO GET PAINTED BY AWARD WINNING BODY PAINT ARTISTS? I follow Scott Fray and Madelyn Greco. They’re five time world champion body painters, some of the best in the world. I have followed them for many years and they were in Bora Bora, and I had asked to have my body painted. And they said, what do you want Val? And I’m like, oh, just do whatever. Well they kept painting and before you know it, they did my whole upper body. And it was absolutely amazing. And by the time they were done they did the Kundalini rising, which is a tantra. And my stomach and they also did the Pharos on my chest and paint. And they had no idea my connection to Egypt. So it was a really, fascinating experience with them because they don’t know me and they painted my life on my body. And I thought it was quite beautiful and it lasted for three days, they seal it on your body. I was their muse. Nefertiti on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/dr._valerie_poppel/] Nefertiti Body Paint [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Screen-Shot-2022-11-30-at-12.30.45-PM-297x300.png] https://www.livingbrush.com/information/181-2/ You founded Jewels of the Orient Bellydance & Wellness Festival, Sambabelly ™ Fitness, Belly dancers of Color Magic Group & MENAHT dancers of color wellness & dance retreat. You have created so much Nefertiti! Can you tell us some of the impacts of these projects, and some highlights that make you proud?   I started Jewels of the Orient when I moved back from the Middle East. I really admire Aida Nour of the Nile Group. I wanted to bring this energy back to the US. I wanted to bring 1-2 international stars, local stars, and rising stars. We had opportunities for dancers to get feedback from judges without competing. https://youtu.be/I9UVg_Uuuy8 Samba Belly Fitness is the fitness side of belly dance. We fuse belly dance with reggaeton, Latin dances, African dances, and hip hop. We have instructors in various gyms that teach this style. It’s comparable to a Zumba class with a belly dance focus. You can find out how to get certified in that if you contact me through the Swann Center. I decided to form a group for dancers of colors from all over the world. To have a safe space to share and grow and learn from each other. It is the Belly Dancers of Color Magic Group [https://www.facebook.com/bellydancersofcolormagic/]. We dropped the words “Belly Dancers” after being educated by dancers of the culture. So it’s Menaht Dancers of Color Magic. Jillina of Jillina’s Belly Dance Experience mentioned you and the Belly Dancers of Color Magic group in the interview I did with her back in episode 61.  https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/jillina/ [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/062-Belly-Dance-Podcast-Jillina-Cover-768x768.jpg] The Evolution of Jillina - 062 Belly Dance Superstars Choreographer Jillina Carlano on courage, contribution, and marinating yourself in music. From performing in prison, touring the planet and stumbling forward through the reckoning in the dance community. This is an amazing podcast interview. WHEN DID YOU DECIDE TO FOCUS ON EGYPTIAN RAQS SHARQI AS YOUR PRIMARY STYLE?  I started out at an ATS dancer. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/carolena-nericcio/ 058 Belly Dance Podcast Carolena Nericcio [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/058-Belly-Dance-Podcast-Carolena-Nericcio-Cover-768x768.png] It's All Improv: Carolena Nericcio & FatChanceBellyDance Style - 058 The founder of FCBD Style speaks on the origin of ATS costuming, cultural appropriation, and the shift back to the name FCBD. Then I saw a male dancer from Egypt in New Jersey and my mouth opened up and I started to get serious about it. I found this spoke to me more than anything else. I have my own flair as well, but my foundation is in Egyptian Raqs Sharqi. You lived in Cairo, Egypt for several years, and were mentored by several top teachers. You studied at the ISOC in Cairo for her teacher’s certification under the direction of Dr. Khalil [https://raqsonline.com/authors/hassan-khalil] and is a member of UNESCO (which means United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization). What are some of the jewels you still have with you from that experience?  BE COMFORTABLE IN YOUR OWN STYLE. DO NOT TRY TO BE SOMEONE ELSE. I AM ENOUGH. Have the technique and education, and still be you when you dance. You are a researcher. When you were asked about cultural appropriation in the Ask me Anything interview mentioned earlier, you said something like What Should we Know about Cultural Appropriation as Belly Dancers? “IF YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT, DON’T DO IT” IF YOU ARE GOING TO BORROW FROM A DANCE, KNOW ABOUT THE HUMANITY THAT GOES WITH IT. UNDERSTAND IT FIRST. DO IT WITH CULTURAL RESPECT. This is a big one for all of us who feel connected to fusion belly dance styles, where we get excited to take what we like often without having a clue where it comes from. Can you tell us more about that?  I can only share with you from my own experience. When I lived in the Middle East, I had privilege. I had an American passport. I could take my butt on a plane and go back home if I wanted to. Other people in the country could not.  I was humbled. I just wanted to do better. I wanted to give back. So I started bringing dancers from the Middle East to the US. Putting money in their pocket. Acknowledging and recognizing them. We can take what we want from other cultures, like their dance, and not have to wear other things that confine the culture. I respect that some people of the culture go against their family norms, values and beliefs in order to give us their art form. In other episodes of A Little Lighter, I ask guests if they have a danceable ritual to share, a danceable song, a favorite dance move, a costume tip, and a vegan whole food ingredient. In this episode, I wanted to focus on your sexoligist expertise and leadership in our belly dance community becoming inclusive and aware and anti-racist. So I’m just going to end with one of the questions I consistently ask in this podcast, because I know your answer is going to be awesome. Do you have a feel-good-look-good habit you want to share? BEFORE YOU STEP OUT ON STAGE, EXHALE When I hear them say my name and I start to step on the stage, I take a big breath in and then exhale.

WATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW [https://youtu.be/NQ7PUkDjdKU] Author of 22+ belly dance costuming books, Dawn Devine talks about current belly dance fashion trends in Egypt and Turkey, how to make assuit fabric feel good on your skin, and how to get more out of your belly dance costumes. Alicia Free: I just don’t know where to begin with Dawn Devine aka Davina! She has created so many costume-creating resources for our dance community and influenced many of our costumes. I remember borrowing the book “From Turban to Toe Ring” [https://www.amazon.com/Turban-Toe-Ring-Dawn-Devine/dp/0615488277] from my first belly dance teacher, June Seaney of Ithaca [https://moonlightdancer.com/]. It came out in 2000, which was the year I started dancing and started making my own belly dance costumes. That book is still precious to me. Dawn started belly dancing in the 80s as a teen. 22+ books later, it is an honor to have Dawn on A Little Lighter! On your website Davina.us [https://www.davina.us/blog/], you wrote “My mission in life is to help people make beautiful, well designed, perfectly fitting costumes.”  You are a Do-it-yourself queen! You have taught so many of us how to make our own costumes with your books, articles, videos, and Instagram posts.  We love hearing about Danceable Rituals in this podcast. I heard you say in the interview on Belly Dance Geek Clubhouse [https://youtube.com/watch?v=f7vJyYpAAgE&feature=share&utm_source=EKLEiJECCKjOmKnC5IiRIQ] that you go from Dawn to Devina when you put your false eyelashes on. Tell us more about your whole process of putting a costume on. HOW MAKEUP HELPS US TRANSFORM INTO GLAMOROUS BELLY DANCERS For me, the ritual starts with the makeup way before the hair, the costume, the jewelry, and all of the other layers in that five layer system. I always think of layer #2, the makeup, as being the real important transformative moment. PUTTING MAKEUP ON IS THE REAL TRANSFORMATIVE MOMENT. https://www.davina.us/blog/2018/11/belly-dance-makeup-info/ ONCE MY MAKEUP IS ON THEN I’M NOT SLOUCHING AS MUCH, AND I’M GETTING INTO THE MINDSET. I’m listening to my set for the night or if it’s live music, something similar in vibe, or maybe a recording by the band that I’m dancing to, even if it’s not the specific piece. So there’s that make-up moment. THAT IS WHERE I ENTER AS DAWN AND I EXIT AS DAVINA. https://youtube.com/watch?v=_r-EqMl0tsE&feature=share&utm_source=EKLEiJECCKjOmKnC5IiRIQ It’s that, moment of music and paint and looking at myself in the mirror and, you know, making love to my eyes as I brush on the different layers of warpaint. I’m such a drag queen. And of course I don’t wear my costume to events. Usually I usually get there and change in the back of my car, you know, out of my trunk, digging around like a fiend. Not glamorous at all, but totally keeping it real! FIND YOUR DANCE MOM So I started off in fashion school and this was an associates degree in a, fashion program in San Diego, California. And I wanted to make every outfit in my classes belly dance costumes. And they were like, no. Dawn, this is a fashion program. You can’t just make belly dance costumes. Well, it came to the attention of my faculty advisor that I was a problem child. And she sent me to a new faculty advisor whose name was Margie. When I walked into Margie’s office, she had a wall devoted to belly dance. And she’s like, you’re here because you’re a belly dancer. And I’m a belly dance instructor when I’m not here being an academic advisor. Let’s get you out of here and to, UCSB, which is where I got my BA. And of course I started taking belly dance classes with her. So she became my dance mom. I was able to channel my love of belly dance costumes into a new facet, a new age of my belly dance career. And I was able to focus on the curriculum. So I think that, that was my most memorable moment when I was still 17. I met my dance mom, and I started dancing professionally in San Diego. Again, not the best dancing on the planet, but everyone’s got to start somewhere. So that was it, finding my dance mom in fashion school. GO OUT CLUBBING AND FIND YOUR BELLY DANCE STUDENTS In San Diego, during the heyday of my professional belly dance career, going out dancing and nightclubs earned me a lot of dance students. I started teaching after I got to UCSD and I founded a belly dance club on campus. And we would go to a nightclub, we were 21, and we would dance and then I would get students. My number one way of acquiring students was dancing informally in nightclubs, not at restaurants. At restaurants, I was the low girl on the totem pole, but at the nightclub, I was the hottest thing. THE OUZO DANCE https://youtu.be/66g_ySXCHxA?t=347 Because I primarily danced at Greek restaurants, I got to do the ouzo dance on a regular basis. I’ve never seen it anywhere else other than in five restaurants in San Diego in the nineties. So the ouzo dance involved, dancing around the restaurant with a waiter behind me selling glasses of ouzo. I had a glass of ouzo on my head, so then we’d get to the middle of this tiny dance floor. We’d put our ouzo glasses on the ground and we would literally lay on the ground like a harbor seal and take the glass between our teeth and shoot it. I had a real glass, but their glasses were like the medicine cups that come on cough syrup. You get your teeth on in and you’d shoot it.  And so that was like the halftime entertainment that we would do in the middle of the dance show. There was a lot of dance at Greek restaurants before. Now there’s more hookah bar dancing and more Persian and middle Eastern dancing in San Diego. CURRENT BELLY DANCE FASHION TRENDS Alicia: What are the fashion trends you are seeing in our worldwide belly dance community these days?  In Egypt right now, what the current elite dancers are wearing falls into two categories: a native Egyptian style with bike shorts with thinner, straighter skirts, much higher waisted, in that sort of 1950s movie style, and the Russian influenced style with lace. CURRENT NATIVE EGYPTIAN STYLE BELLY DANCE COSTUMES: BIKE SHORTS AND THIGH DECOR For the native Egyptian style, in addition to bike shorts, you see a lot of strappy things on your legs like garters or head dresses that are being worn on the upper thigh. You see a lot of attention being drawn with jewelry or rhinestones, to the upper thigh area. And of course the Dina bra, which isn’t actually a supportive garment, so it’s kind of teaser, right? Dina can wear them because it basically pops onto her synthetic breasts. The bra itself isn’t really a viable bra for women who have more naturalistic, not gravity-defying breasts. https://www.sparklybelly.com/things-i-wish-someone-told-me-before-i-bought-my-first-dina-bra/ I think the Dina bra trend is going to turn because it’s becoming clear that these Dina bras style costumes are only good for people below a certain age, whether their bust tissue is nice and firm or people have enhancements. > If your costume fits well and is in good repair, your bra won’t come open on accident. That is part of why I have written costuming books! I don’t want that to happen. RUSSIAN INFLUENCED LACE IN BELLY DANCE COSTUMES IN EGYPT NOW The other style that’s happening in Egypt is this Russian influenced the style using lots of lace, using lots of stretchy materials and lots of rhinestones that basically enhance the figural quality of the lace. And that really comes from this Russian Ukrainian, Eastern European design aesthetic. And because we have a lot of dancers from that area currently operating professionally in Egypt. RUFFLE FULL SKIRT WITH HORSE HAIR BRAID And then I think another sub trend is that real, ruffly skirt with horse hair braid in it. That’s an influence that comes  the south American dancers who are dancing in Egypt. Some dancers are bringing the flavor of flamenco and Spanish dancing, and that is a trend as well. So you’ve got these Russian styles, and you’ve got this giant voluminous, skirt style. CURRENT BELLY DANCE FASHION IN TURKEY: DIDEM AND NUDE ILLUSIONS Didem from Turkey [https://www.instagram.com/didembellydancer/] is also an enhanced dancer. Her bras tend to be very small, non-supportive so basically a covering rather than a supportive. In Turkey, Didem is really leading the Turkish dance scene, and consequently the styles. And she’s really doing the reflective bra and belts paired with nude color skirts and nude color costume accessories. When performing in a dark environment, it looks very naked. She’s doing it by using those nude illusion fabrics and soft gold Champaign colors paired with metallic or rhinestone brown belt sets. FAUX ASSUIT: ADDING A LAYER OF COMFORT I’m always hoping for a resurgence in assuit. [https://www.davina.us/blog/category/assiut-assuit/] I want to see more assuit costumes because I’m obsessed. We want what we want. https://www.amazon.com/Cloth-Egypt-About-Assiut-Assuit/dp/069227054X/ref=as_li_ss_il?ie=UTF8&qid=1522618095&sr=8-1&keywords=the+cloth+of+egypt+by+dawn+devine&linkCode=li2&tag=dawndevine-20&linkId=174ca50443e0ef97c9c3bced4d2b9e2c Alicia: And I love assuit. The real assuit. I love 1920s. That stuff is so gorgeous, but I think they’re doing a really good job with a lot of the different a suit prints, when you’re at a distance, oh, it’s gorgeous. And they’re comfortable to wear. I have a Melodia faux assuit top and skirt. [https://www.melodiadesigns.com/creatrix/assuit/] And let me tell you, it feels like you’re wearing pajamas when you’re wearing it. Assuit is having a moment. I feel partially responsible for that because my last book and because of my flooding, the web with assuit, but I really love that more spandex costumes add a layer of comfort to both our performance attire and our semi on duty belly dance wardrobes. Like what we’re wearing to festivals, what we’re wearing to go watch a show. I THINK WE’RE IN A MOMENT WHERE WE CAN BE COMFORTABLE AND GLAMOROUS AT THE SAME TIME. Alicia: I didn’t realize that those were headpieces that people were taping or their thighs DIY BRIDAL APPLIQUES IN BELLY DANCE COSTUME ACCESSORIES Type in bridal appliques or bridal appliques with rhinestone. They’re usually white or champagne color because those are actually designed and made for the bridal industry. All you have to do is put a piece of elastic on it sized for your head or thigh. Those aren’t actually designed to be head dresses. Those are just bridal applications that are being used as is, or are being more heavily embellished with glue on rhinestones. Look for something that’s eight to 12 inches, depending on the size and shape of your head and how far forward or back you like to wear it. Or use your thigh measurement. Buy bridal appliques and just add elastic. It’s a really affordable accessory piece to hand-make. You can even sew it by hand. You don’t even need a sewing machine. There’s your costume tip for the day. If you go for AB crystals, wear an AB necklace and it’ll tie in your ensemble and viewers will go, wow, she’s really got it. Put an application on a clip and clip it to your shoe. And then you can take it from head to toe. BELLY DANCE MOVE: UNDULATION TRIO I really love body undulations. I wear a lot of assuit robes, because my stomach region is not ready for prime time. If you know what I mean. So in a full length assuit robe with those metal stitches, going down the front, an undulation of the body very much shows under stage lights. And you don’t have to do a lot. It’s a very mellow move, a body undulation. I like to start at the bottom. I like to start in a seated position and then push everything up and forward. So hips up and forward, stomach up and forward, chest up and forward. And then a head flick. I like to start as deep as I can go that night in seated position, which makes the move look so much more dramatic. And it looks great on stage. If you do it as a trio one to the right one to the left, come to the center, lift up with a double chest bump, boom, boom at the top. And if I can pop my chest, hard enough to make my jewelry fling off my body. that’s my ultimate goal. So deep body wave up, chest pop with jewelry flinging force vector. Let the jewelry fly. GET MORE OUT OF YOUR BELLY DANCE COSTUMES I want people to be able to up-cycle recycle, save money, extend the length of time that their costume is viable to be able to buy second hand and fit it, upgrade. I want people have that power. Knowledge is power is my key mandate. So my goal is to share all of these skills that I feel every dancer should know, but it’s hard to learn right now. We’re in an age where people buy ready-made. They go to an event, or they buy online. SO MANY DANCERS ARE WEARING READY-MADE COSTUMES THAT DON’T FIT RIGHT. And then we see that result in dancers wearing costumes that are not fitting as perfectly as they could fit. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/interview-with-mahin/ Belly Dance Podcast belly queen mahin [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Belly-Dance-Podcast-belly-queen-mahin-768x768.png] Interview with Belly Dance Quickies Queen Mahin - ALLAF 016 Find out why chatting in the dressing room is a good habit to quit, get yourself a gold or silver bra and belt, and discover what’s so confusing about Foq Elna Khel. AND WE HAVE A RESALE MARKET THAT’S FLOODED WITH DANCE COSTUMES THAT DIDN’T WORK. So I want to prevent that from happening. I want people to make good decisions as a buyer, and good decisions as a dancer. Good decisions as a maker. The design is the process of making an infinite number of tiny decisions. Is it going to be red or blue? Is it going to be fusion or is it going to be ethnographic? Is it going to be glam? You know, all these little tiny myriad decisions. My goal is to help people make those effectively for their needs and to help them build the skills. to make it happen. https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/maelle-049/ [https://bellydancebodyandsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Belly-Dance-Podcast-Maelle-Quintart-768x768.jpg] Maëlle on How to Dance for a Middle Eastern Audience - 049 Veil poi innovator Maëlle shares belly dance secrets from the Lebanese night clubs of Brussels, palaces of Dubai, and Suhaila Salimpour's dance studios. Hear her story.  And we have a lot of flexibility here. I think that comes from the polyglot nature of belly dance in the United States. Since the earliest days of belly dance in the United States, it was a mixture of cultures. So you might have a Turkish drummer and an Armenian oud player and a Lebanese singer and an Egyptian tabla player. So by its very nature, the club world in New York city and Boston and Chicago and Los Angeles, those scenes were a composite of cultures. This meant that the costuming wound up being a composite of cultures, which then kind of got the name Amcab –  American cabaret. Costuming that is not intrinsically tied to one specific country, but rather reflecting the melting pot ideology of dance and dance spaces in the 1940s, fifties, sixties, and seventies. And it’s with us today. HOW TO MAKE ASSUIT FEEL GOOD ON YOUR SKIN So number one is right now, today in Egypt, they are making assuit fabrics that are much softer than they did in the 2000s. So the assuit industry almost died in the eighties. There were very few women taking on this embroidery art form that was indigenous to upper Egypt. And they were down to just like a few really old aunties who still had this arcane knowledge. https://www.amazon.com/Cloth-Egypt-About-Assiut-Assuit/dp/069227054X/ref=as_li_ss_il?ie=UTF8&qid=1522618095&sr=8-1&keywords=the+cloth+of+egypt+by+dawn+devine&linkCode=li2&tag=dawndevine-20&linkId=174ca50443e0ef97c9c3bced4d2b9e2c THE AGE OF THE ASSUIT MAKES A DIFFERENCE UNICEF went into upper Egypt and they discovered this art form and that women could make this culturally significant handicraft and sell it and support their children. They went back to the United Nations and UNESCO, the United Nations historical arm, and they set up a program utilizing people in Egypt, from the Egyptian cultural heritage center. And it was funded by Italian investors to go in and do microloans for women to set up assuit studios, to train a generation. So they made workbooks with the explanations they sent in people to help with training. They built these studios, and now we have an assuit industry again. Well, when this was getting started, by the nineties, UNESCO had already come in, and was starting to fund this. The suit tulle went from being stiff to being soft because that’s what people wanted to buy. But at the beginning it needed to be stiff in order to accommodate the new embroidery artists. HOW TO REMOVE THE WAX COATING ON ASSUIT FABRIC That stiffness is a wax coating. It isn’t intrinsically stiff. It is treated at the industrial level with a wax coating that you can actually remove through hard work and labor. So, you can remove it with an industrial, surface stripper, which you can get from a dying company. So, I use a product called Milsoft [https://www.dharmatrading.com/chemicals/milsoft.html] that is available from Dharma Trading. Milsoft will industrially strip it and it will become soft. And then you can add fabric softener to it. Now, if you don’t want to invest in that kind of product, you can soak it in super hot water and then wash it and soak it in super hot water. And over the course of washing, it will get softer on its own. Milsoft just sort of speeds up that process. And there’s a little more industrial. Okay. So modernist suit doesn’t need that treatment though. It is soft today because that generation of embroidery artists is two generations down and they now have the facility to work with that softer, more pliable, mosquito netting. Let’s get real. It’s cotton mosquito netting. That’s what it is. So they’re doing an embroidery art on that now. That’s the fabric. WHAT METAL IS USED IN ASSUIT TEXTILES? Let’s talk about the stitches. The metal is aluminum. Now back in the 1920s, it could be any sort of assorted metal alloy ranging from something that was a little more silver to something that was a little more copper or a little more brass. LIGHT WEIGHT ALUMINUM IS USED IN ASSUIT NOW You never know they used whatever metal they could find. Nowadays it’s uniformly made out of aluminum. So modernist suit as much lighter. And aluminum is aluminum. So you want to make sure you don’t get any acid on it. Like don’t spill lemon juice on your assuit because it will do weird things to the aluminum Okay. So don’t clean a suit and vinegar. Vinegar is the enemy. USE A ROLLING PIN TO FLATTEN PUFFY ASSUIT STITCHES So each individual artist is going to have a different capacity as they make it. So sometimes your stitches will be a little puffy and the breaks where they’ve snapped it off, you know, they make the stitch and then snap it. if that little edge is long, it will be scratchy. Right. So what you can do is lay your assuit piece on a table and take a rolling pin and roll it out. That flattens and compresses the stitches and helps smooth out those edges. So that will also reduce it. TRY WEARING YOUR ASSUIT INSIDE OUT And if you love your assuit robe but it itches, try wearing it inside out. Now I know the seams are going to show, but see if it’s more comfortable for you inside out because those little edges are all on the inside. So if it’s more comfortable to wear and inside out, the audience won’t know if you finish off those stitches. So you’re just going to like flat fell your seams, just go through folded under hand. So it goes down the side, instant reverse dress. Right? So if you find that it’s too scratchy, you can reverse it. WEAR SCRATCHY ASSUIT OVER MESH The next thing you can do is wear it over a mesh dress. So make a base layer of mesh. That could be a mesh body stocking that fits your body tightly. And then your assuit would go over it. It could be made out of cotton. I frequently wear turtlenecks. Dark opaque fabrics make the silver or gold or brass, whatever color you choose makes the metal pop. So against your skin with your skin showing through the mesh, the metal is not as distinctive, but when you wear something opaque underneath it, suddenly the metal pops. And so you can get just a dress off the rack LBD little black dress to wear under your suit. If you have purple assuit, a little purple dress. So you buy something to wear underneath it or make something. But, if you can buy a dress for 40 bucks to wear under your assuit robe, you’re saving yourself time and if you’re making a dress, that’s going to cost you that much in fabric. So I tend to suggest that dancers buy something to wear under their assuit. So there you go. Roll it, wash it. flatten it. If it’s still scratchy, try it on inside out. If it’s still scratchy, put something under it. DELICIOUS VEGAN WHOLE FOOD: POPCORN I make it on the stove with the shaky shaky and an old pan, old school, the way they’ve been doing it for centuries. I know how to make the perfect popcorn on the stove. He’s got the little wrist technique. You go right left, right left, really fast, and then you switch hands. https://youtu.be/3EwuCdIWggo?list=PL823AF97C90D542C8&t=143 You go from your elbow so you don’t wear at your wrist. popcorn, it’s affordable, it’s nutritious. I know there’s a lot of people are anti corn right now because of GMOs and stuff. But depending upon where you buy it, you can get good popcorn these days. And it is a good, way of eating in a volume metric way. So I can have, one cup of corn turns into a giant bowl of popcorn, which you can eat and enjoy for more than just three scoops. So I really like having that volume. DAVINA’S GREAT PERFORMANCE TRINITY: COSTUME + MUSIC + MOVES Alicia: You’ve talked about a performance trinity of: Style of costume + Style of music + repertoire of moves. How the sound, visual and movement go together. Pick your style. Glam? Ethnographic? Fusion? What time period? Now pick a costume, music and moves that all fit together in that style. If you want to capture a space, time and location, do your research. The way you combine these elements and unify the trinity shows your research skills. It proves your chops. If you dance in a restaurant, catch the vibe of the restaurant so you are giving your audience the music and costume that matches the restaurant. KINDS OF AUDIENCES WE BELLY DANCE FOR 1. Belly dance “Life stylers” are dancers who took 3+ years of dance classes and still dance at home and do research on belly dance. They know about the trinity. People who spend time loving dance. They embrace dance as a lifestyle. 2. People native to the Levant also understand the trinity 3. People who know little about belly dance. WHAT ARE THE BEST COINS FOR BELLY DANCE COSTUMES? Saroyan coins are made of musical grade brass and german silver, so that when the coins touch they ring like zills. Ethnographic coins are pretty, but the sound and musical tone of saroyan coins surpasses the sound of ethnographic coins. They don’t make the coins anymore. They do make Saroyan finger cymbals now. If we love the sound, we love the hip wrap. We might not consciously realize that, but we are drawn to costume pieces that make a nice tone more than clank. https://www.davina.us/blog/2021/10/saroyan-coin-earrings/ https://www.davina.us/blog/2011/06/jean-jinglers/ DANCE MOVE: SHIMMY YOUR HIP SCARF OFF INTENTIONALLY FOR FUN It’s like a reveal! Pin and secure a hip scarf on the bottom layer and hand tie a coin scarf on top so that it can be shimmied right off seemingly on accident. How Belly Dance Superstars was Started Miles Copeland put Belly Dance Superstars together for Jane’s Addiction’s FUTURE BELLY DANCE COSTUMING BOOKS AND BELLY DANCE HISTORY BOOKS Bralapalooza will become Belly Dance Costuming in Detail. It’s a DIY Instructional book. It will be filled with costuming and wardrobing. Wardrobing is what we wear as off-duty belly dancers going to events as spectators. From high glam, through fusion and ethnographic. I’m writing a book on Salome and the Salome Phenomenon in Europe from 1850-1950 and Belly Dance at Worlds Fairs. I’m publishing my vast knowledge of Belly Dance History in America over the next 5 years. https://www.davina.us/blog/2020/10/yalah-raqs-2020/mad-about-maud/ A book can last beyond a video. We don’t know when Youtube, Vimeo, and Instagram will be gone. My books are in the Library of Congress. They will exist beyond me. If you are a belly dance historian, write your book. Get it in print. The knowledge of the dancers of the 70s and 80s is going to pass with them, and I don’t want that to happen. Publish a book! Email me! I help people finish the book and publish. Button Text